EntreLeadership - #363: Why Are You a Leader? with Patrick Lencioni

Episode Date: February 24, 2020

Why are you—or why do you want to be—a leader, really? This is the question bestselling author and leadership expert Patrick Lencioni helps answer in his newest book, The Motive. In this episode, Pat explains how your response to five common leadership responsibilities can reveal whether you’re in it for the right reasons (or not!)—and what to do about it.   entreleadership.com/podcast The Motive by Patrick Lencioni Patrick Lencioni's website The Table Group website 5 Disfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni Ideal Team Player by Patrick Lencioni EntreLeadership by Dave Ramsey The Advantage by Patrick Lencioni Death by Meeting by Patrick Lencioni The Dave Ramsey Show podcast At The Table with Patrick Lencioni podcast Mission Statement Mapper Your Personal Guide to a Productive Work Week from BELAY  Review this episode for a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card   Want expert help with your business question? Call 844-944-1070 and leave a message or send an email to [e-mail]. You could be featured on a future podcast episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I think it's safe to say that today we live in a leadership culture. Leadership is glorified, revered, encouraged, and admired. So much so that the people we work with, work for, and even the person in the mirror, can pursue and chase leadership without ever answering the most important question. From the Ramsey Network, this is the Entree Leadership podcast, where we help business leaders grow themselves, their teams, and their profits. I'm your host, Alex Judd, and today we're talking with our friend, Patrick Lynchione. He's the bestselling author of The Advantage, the Five Dysfunctions of a

team, the ideal team player, and his newest one, it's a good one. It's called the motive. And at the centerpiece of this story and all the principles that it teaches is a core question that every leader probably should have asked themselves a long time ago. Why do I actually want to lead? Because if our answer to that question isn't clear and right, well, we're going to avoid all the activities that actually make up leadership. And folks, that, that's a problem. The problem is this. If leaders don't do these things, if they delegate them, which is really, or abdicate them,

because you can't delegate these things, if they don't do these difficult things, then no one else is going to. And it's going to leave a huge vacuum. And this is true in many, many organizations. And nobody else is going to do that. And real human suffering occurs, both in terms of the, morale and sense of belonging of the people in the organization, and then customers feel it, and then the financial performance gets hit to or the mission. So this is not just like a nice-to-do thing.

These are things that only the CEO can do. Now, this is not a comprehensive list of the CEO's job. The five things we're going to talk about are the five common things that are really difficult and not very comfortable, or it can be tedious that many leaders who are leading for the wrong reason, they just don't do them because they don't want to. Do you see these things that people are avoiding? Do you see people avoiding them at every level of the org chart in different industries, different stages of business? Does it kind of transcend all of those categories?

Yes, yes, and yes, it does. The thing, though, that's very interesting is the higher you go up in an organization, the more likely somebody is to do this. And at the purest level, we see people that spend their whole lives doing these things, because that's how they rise up the ladder. And then they get to the top job, and they go, oh, finally, I don't have to do those things anymore. And that's crazy. But whether you're a pastor, whether you're running a small entrepreneurial venture, a school, a department within a company, a multi-billion dollar industry,

or a family business, if you're the leader of that organization and you're not doing these things, problems are going to occur. And you really have to ask yourself, do I really want to be the leader? Because if I do, then I'm going to do these things. And if I don't, then I probably shouldn't be in this role. Okay, so let's jump into them. Number one was really investing your time and energy as a leader to developing and building the team. Explain to us from your perspective what that actually means and what that actually looks like. Yeah, that means taking an active role in helping your people work together well on the team you lead. So if you have a small business, it's probably everybody. If it's like there's seven or eight of you, but if you're in a company

of 25 or 50 or 2000, you have a leadership team. One of your primary jobs is to make that team behaviorally cohesive. And you don't do that by delegating it to someone in HR or even by bringing in an outside consultant. They can help you. But your job is to lead that effort and to be actively involved in it. Okay. And so you're saying this is something they are avoiding team building is kind of the claim that you're making? Well, it's a great question because I was just thinking about this is very few CEOs today will actually say that's stupid. Even if they believe it, it's become politically or organizationally correct to do team building. But what they'll do is they'll bring somebody in for some touchy-feely experiential offsite. Trust falls, right? Yeah. Or they'll do

something that they're not really that engaged in. And then it just doesn't work. The truth of the matter is if you have a leadership offsite or if you do team building, you are the leader of that team. And if you have somebody helping you do that, people have to see that this is the CEO and his or her team is of primary importance to him. And if we're not working together, getting along, being honest, having conflict, trusting each other, then this is a problem. And so many CEOs who say they care about it still delegate it, give it lip service, and essentially abdicate responsibility for it happening. So I was talking to someone the other day, and it was as I was reading your book, I was talking to someone and as a coach,

asked them the question, okay, well, are you playing a role in developing and building your team? And they said, oh yeah, we go to this conference every single year.

And that was their answer. How do you respond to that? Yeah, no, that's not it. That's great. So the question is, that's not it.

You go to the conference and everybody learns. And then it's like, so now what are you as the leader going to do to demand that people apply the principles of teamwork so that they run the organization

the best possible way? and most leaders are going, well, we went to the conference. If they're not doing it now, I mean, what can I do? And it's like, no, no, no. That's just informing the process that you need to lead. You make a pretty bold claim that this is something that can't be delegated to a head of HR or someone else. Why is it important that the leader be the person that is directly responsible or directly involved in building the team? Because at the end of the day, if people know that this is not important and of primary importance to the leader, they're not going to do it.

I mean, the truth is, I don't like overly hierarchical organizations, but I love hierarchy and I love leadership. And if Dave Ramsey is not paying attention to the things that are important in his organization, people are going to pay attention to what he's looking at. And so if I'm a leader and I'm saying, I really care about the way you treat one another. I really care that you're pursuing truth and arguing and working together. And if I don't see that the leader's doing that, I'm not going to pay attention to that. I don't care if you have the world's greatest HR person or team builder. And if they do it, it's not the same as if the leader does. I mean, I can't bring in another person to teach my kids about what's important in my family.

Even though I can bring in other books and I can point them to other things and I can invite others in, if they say, Dad, you really don't care about that stuff, do you? I mean, it's as silly as like, if I tell my kids not to do drugs and they get the best people to tell them that, and they go, but Dad does drugs. What's going to matter more? What you're saying rings true to that the principle that everything communicates. what Dave Ramsey cares about as the owner of our organization, I learn as a team member to care about. So I guess my next question would be, we said it's not the touchy feeling team building.

It's not just the trust falls and things like that. What does this look like in action? When a CEO actually owns their role as team builder, what are the things you recommend they do or the actions you recommend they take? Well, what they have to do, and I write about this in both the five dysfunctions of a team and the ideal team player. But really, it's like this. I as the leader am going to be vulnerable and I'm going to demand that you guys be vulnerable to. I as the leader I'm going to disagree when I disagree about anything that matters and I'm going to demand that you do that too.

I as the leader am going to force us at the end of conversations after we've been vulnerable and engaged in conflict. I'm going to force you to commit to a decision so when we walk out of the room there's nothing to say there's no hallway conversations or parking lot conversations. I as the leader I'm going to hold you accountable so that you will in turn hold one another and me accountable. And I as the leader will focus on the collective good of the team and not pick the parts of the organization that I'm most interested in, but realize that we're trying to drive the whole company. And I am going to take an active interest in making sure you're all doing that.

Nobody else can do that but me. I'm going to spend time, energy, angst, and emotional vulnerability making sure this happens. Because if I don't do it, they're not going to pay attention. it probably feels a lot more risky to do things that way right it feels a lot more uncomfortable from a leadership perspective in the short term it is in the long term the riskiest thing is not to take that risk you know it's like you have to dive into that pool in order for the people that work for you to do it and so many leaders are like oh i don't want to be vulnerable i don't want to take that risk i don't want to risk upsetting the apple cart and all you're doing is ensuring that the apple cart is

going to spoil, you know. And so truly, and I mean this, it sounds like a cliche, but the only thing worse than having difficult conversations, which is one of the next things we're going to talk about as a team or individually is not doing it and watching what happens as a result. Because politics come in. I mean, you know, you know, oh, I don't want to do team building. That would be, that's not worth my time. That sounds, then you're going to get a political organization, probably passive aggressive, not actively aggressive. And ultimately you're going to lose your best people. Your customers are going to get frustrated because they're going to notice you're going to make bad decisions. So tell me, what's riskier than having been doing that, not doing it? Okay. So what do you say to the person

that says, well, I don't know that we need to focus a ton of on team building right now because we all just get along so well and it just feels like no one's disagreeing about anything. Like, we're all very, very cohesive. I don't think we've had a meeting in the past year where people have really disagreed. So I don't know that we need team building. Right. Well, of course, what I would say is that's a good sign that you're not really a team. And it's a guarantee, I'll say this in a very practical way, you're leaving goodness on the table. You're not maximizing what your organization could be doing. Because really what we should be saying is what's our standard? Okay, if you're in the NFL and you win the championship, even if you didn't maximize your potential, you can justify that

and say, well, we were the best. But if you're in an organization, you're saying, are we doing the very best we could? It's just like a church. You know, like, how can you ever justify in a church not doing your very best. You could say, well, we did better than that other church, but there's people that we need to reach. And so a company should be that way, too. Are we doing the very best we could? And if we're not pushing each other, if we're not disagreeing, if we're not, if we're not having some level of discomfort, it is absolutely impossible to believe or to convince me that you're getting the very, very, very most out of your team and out of your organization. Okay, so that leads us, and you already touched on this son, but into the second one, which is managing my executives

or direct reports as individuals. So this really kind of dives into that whole aspect or concept of coaching, and it's really focused on one-on-one. Well, yeah, and what's interesting is this is the basics. It's like managing a person. I go into a lot of organizations, and it doesn't have to be a big one, but I'll talk to the CEO and they'll say, well, I don't really have to manage my people because I hired really good people,

and I trust them. And I get that. Really what they're saying is, you know, I've been managing people my whole life. I really like strategy and customers and all this other stuff. I don't really want to have to ask them, what are you working on? What's your progress against those things? And give them feedback. Because it feels, in this case, it's not uncomfortable as much as it's tedious.

It feels like, but that's easy. It's like, well, it's not necessarily easy, but even if it is, it has to be done. And I've seen, in big companies, Alex, I've seen more CEOs neglect to manage their direct reports. and then they'll complain about the fact that managers in the middle of the organization are not very good people managers. I don't care if you're the executive vice president of a $12 billion international organization. You need management. Everybody needs management. Is it going to look a little different?

Yeah, but it's guidance. It's knowing what you're working on. It's coaching and it's accountability. And too many CEOs don't do it because they feel like I've earned the right to stop doing that. or they say, well, I trust my people. I shouldn't have to. Okay, so you're setting the record straight here because, I mean, you literally, you wrote the book on hiring ideal team players, people that are humble, hungry, smart. But you're saying if you have a team of ideal team players, you should still be playing the role of one-on-one manager. Yes. Now, you can do much of that one-on-one management when you're together.

I mean, but you are still responsible for providing, for making sure there's alignment, clarity, and feedback so that people are doing the very best they could to work together. And so whether you're sitting down doing it one-on-one or whether in a meeting with people, you're saying, hey, you've got to get better at that. You are responsible for the development and performance of the individuals on your team, and you can't just walk away from it and say, well, that's something junior leaders do. And it's so amazing. the most ask any leader whose manager is not managing them. And I've done it myself. I've thought,

hey, that person's fine. They don't need anything from me. And problems arise and it's my fault. So management is not something that's required for lower level employees. Management is a gift to everyone. And one of the hardest parts of being a CEO is nobody manages you. So what do you do with that? For the CEO? Yeah. That's why it's really important that they can have advice. and create the kind of trust on a team where at least they're getting really honest upward feedback from the people on their team.

And while they're not their manager, CEO's job is to say, hey, you're not my manager, but you have permission. In fact, I'm going to exhort you to provide me with some of the clarity I need to do a better job at this. But having an outside counsel is not a bad thing, just a person you can turn to. It might be your spouse. It might be your pastor. It might be a friend.

It might be a consultant. It might be. But it's really good for them to have somebody. It's not chairman of the board in a big company because they have a different role. It's somebody that feels responsible for holding you accountable to. So we see this in our organization. We have a rhythm of one-on-one meetings. I have one-on-one meetings with my leader, and that goes all the way up the organization.

Dave has one-on-one meetings with his direct reports. And I know because we work, we work primarily with small business owners between two and 200 team members. We have people on both sides of that spectrum. But I know sometimes it's like they're at 25 people and they're kind of an accidental CEO. And this could be listening to you talking about this today right now could be the first time they've ever considered putting a weekly rhythm of one-on-one meetings on their calendar. Yes. So if that is the person that's listening right now, where do they start and how do they structure those meetings to make sure they're being effective? Well, I'm not a prescriptive guy because I think there's lots of ways to run an organization.

but what it is is this, have the courage just to sit down in a room and don't feel like you have to know exactly, you just have conversations. Read books if you want, but there's no right way to do it. Every business is a little different. Every leader is a little bit different. I do think that what Dave's book, you know, the entree leadership book is fantastic. We have a book called The Advantage, which helps with some of this stuff too. But here's what I would say is don't think if you haven't been doing it until now that you can't start and don't think that you have to be. perfect at it. Keep listening to this podcast because at the end, we're going to talk about the

primary question I'm going to ask, which is why do you want to be the leader in the first place? And that's where it will all come together. So these are really good pieces of evidence about if your motive is right, you need to do these things. But when I really called a question your motive for leadership, then it's all going to come together, I think. Can you speak to, I think about this sounds a lot like playing the role of the coach, right? And I think some of the, best in the sports world, some of the best coaches in the world. You're already raising your hand. Yeah, no, I'm right. You're exactly right. It's a great analogy. Well, it seems to me as though the best coaches in the world coach the individual as an individual. And so the way they coach one person,

maybe they're super hard nose, super intense, really pushing one person, but then they'll turn to another person of the same position and coach them in a different way. So can you speak to in the role of management, the importance of coaching individuals as individuals? It's a balance because what you want is common behavioral norms and values. You have to have common values. So you have to say, we're all held accountable to these. But the way I'm going to help you get there is by understanding where you are right now. It's not unlike evangelizing somebody. Like, yeah, I want to share my faith with you. What do you know? I talked to a guy yesterday who a year ago was the first time he'd ever heard Jesus. Wow. And I said, really? Not until then. And he goes,

I'd never heard of this guy. Well, I'm going to have a very different conversation with that guy than somebody I meet coming out of church. Yeah, no kidding. And just like a manager, I'm like, this person, because of their Myers-Briggs type, or their intellectual level, or their experience level, you've got to manage people where they are, but you're managing them to a common understanding of the culture and what you're trying to get.

So it can't be, I'm going to have different expectations of people. Everybody has to be held to high standards, but I'm going to help you get. there in a way that's effective for you. That's powerful. So the standard is immovable is what you're saying, but the way, the how you get to that standard in terms of coaching the individuals, what changes. Absolutely. And again, if the leader of an organization is not taking an active role in that, people are not going to think it's important. And one of the things I've learned as the owner of a small business, I run a small business too is just when I think that I don't need to do it anymore, I realize I have to step back in because there was a reason for that. And this can be

kind of the downside or misapplication of humility is that a leader can say, I don't need to do that anymore. I talked to a guy the other day who said, he decided he was going to become the grandfather of his employees instead of the father. In other words, I'm going to go show up every once in a while, play with the kids. When they poop their pants, I'll hand him back to somebody else. And he said, and the company started to spiral. And he said, there is no substitute for being the father or the mother. The hands-on my job, if I'm the leader, is to make sure that my direct reports are getting the care and feeding and clarity and alignment and correction they need. And you just can't abdicate that. I thought this as I was reading your book that you kind of confront these things that we are all

capable of avoiding not just as opportunities. There is a lot of opportunity in these things. But the way you come at this is really these are responsible. responsibilities that we should be taking. And I feel like that's going to ruffle some feathers for some people. Yeah. Well, one of the guys that the CEO of Veridesk, you know, Veridesk, I love that company. They make the desk that go up and down and a whole bunch of others. He's one of the people that endorsed this and we sent it to him. And his comment was, this book rocked me to my core. And I really do think of all the books I've written. This is the prequel. This is the one that before you get into the how to be a leader, you really need to explore why are you a leader in the first place?

Because if you do that, it can be sobering and you can go, wow, now that I get this, I'm going to embrace all these things that I didn't really want to do because I realize how important they are. But if you can't get your hands around why you're a leader in the first place, you're probably not going to be convinced that it's necessary. So again, more foreshadowing for the end of our podcast. I was going to say, we're just laying the breadcrumbs for the big reveal at the end. It's going to be awesome.

Okay, so we talked about developing and building the team. We talked about managing the executives and your direct reports as individuals. Let's jump into the next one, which might be the most fun because it's the one that's so hard. It's having those difficult conversations. Why? Why do we all avoid this, Pat? And I say we because I am one of those people that avoids this. Yeah, join the club. I mean, it's human nature to do it. I'm an ENFP, so I want people to like me. and we avoid it because we don't like to suffer. And this is short-term suffering. It is putting yourself out there and having to sit and look at somebody who you are going to make uncomfortable. And even if you know intellectually that that discomfort is what's required to get them to a place of growth and greater comfort,

boy, we're always looking for a way around it. And so many leaders, depending on why they became a leader, just aren't willing to go there. And even those of us that want to be leaders for the right reason, it's so tempting to just try to find a way around it, to make a suggestion or get somebody else to say things or kind of hope for the best. But the best leaders are the ones that have the most difficult conversations early and frankly, and they stay with it. And Alan Malalley, you and I were talking about this before the podcast started, Alan Malalley, who turned around forward, the way he turned around forward, I'll just say this more than anything else is I think he was a purveyor of joyful accountability. He had a way of going to somebody and having a difficult conversation in love, but without being indirect, and say to them, this is what I need from you. This isn't good enough.

And here's what I need you to do. And if you don't want to do it, that's okay. But to have your job and to work at this company, this is what you need to opt in for. And he didn't do it in a snarky way. He didn't do it in a passive way. He was direct, loving, and firm. And you know what happened? Some people left.

most of them opted in and very few people had to be managed out by lawyers in HR. Because when the leader fails to have uncomfortable conversations, nobody else can fill that role. And probably nobody else is going to want to do it because they're like, well, he or she isn't going to do it. Why in the world should I? So you've worked with hundreds, if not thousands of high profile leaders that many of us would know for probably great reasons. And some of them maybe not for the greatest reasons.

You've been alongside those people and coincided with those people over the course of your career. For the people that do this exceptionally well, and you mentioned that Alan was one of them, the people that do it exceptionally well, what do they have in common? Or what stands out about them? That's a great question because very few do it exceptionally well. And even the ones that do, it's not natural. So if people are listening to this and going, oh, I hate those uncomfortable conversations. Now, many of your best entrepreneurs are great at this. And that's why their companies are so great because they're like, well,

if I care about those people and I care about my customers and I care about this business and putting food on the table for all of my employees, not doing it is ridiculous. So there's some people that just get it. Few leaders are naturally good at it. I think that people who understand the difference between love and being nice are the ones that get it the most. People that have seen people be nice without love understand that being nice without love is an act of cruelty because you're.

allowing somebody to remain in a situation that's not good for them, but you're avoiding playing a role in that because you don't want to suffer through that. So people have that. Now, I think that if you're in Myers-Briggs language, if you're a thinker rather than a feeler, you might have an advantage because you might not take it so hard when somebody is sad. But then again, you might not understand the need for it. But I know as a feeler, Alex, I love to tell people what they're doing great. I don't love to tell people what they're not doing well. And the truth is I have to do both if I care about them. So what do they have in common?

They understand that be nice to somebody and not being honest with them is not love. And they realize that their job is not to feel good about themselves. It's to feel good about what they're doing in their role and how people are going to ultimately improve. And I'm totally susceptible to this. I like to be popular. I like to be well liked. And so that's what I was going to say. You like to be popular.

You said you like to be liked. I assume you are in a stage now leading the table group where you have to have difficult conversations occasionally. And so how did you develop that skill or how did you coach yourself to be able to have these conversations? Well, it's interesting because we've just been going through this at our company because even it doesn't matter how long a company's been in business or how successful it's going to be messy. And just like a marriage, no marriage is like we have ups and downs. And hopefully the downs aren't so low that we're contemplating terrible things. But to, To get better, it's a roller coaster and there's certain down periods.

Well, we just came, we're just going into or coming out of a down period at our company where we realized that I was the only one having those conversations. And as a result of me doing them, and I wasn't doing them particularly well because I don't like to. And by the time I was doing it, I was kind of frustrated. Nobody else was having those conversations with one another. And so they were like, well, we'll just let Pat do it. And so we just had some very difficult conversations at our company about how we need to share the load of having uncomfortable conversations. that it can't just be the leader.

But I know this, if I had stopped doing it, there was no way I was going to get everybody else to do it too. Because I can't say, I'm not going to do it, you guys need to do it. So what I've said to people is I'm doing it. I'm doing it way more than I want to. And I think that's because nobody else is doing it. And you know what they realized when they start doing it? I actually don't have to do it all the time.

And it puts me in a better position to coach them. So anyway, I guess what I'm just saying is it's not natural. every organization needs to have these conversations, but if the leader is not willing to have those hard conversations, they're not going to fulfill their potential. Well, it's pretty fascinating, too, that I mean, I appreciate your vulnerability there in talking that this is something you're trying to grow on your team. But it sounds like what you're talking about is creating a culture where the difficult conversation is the norm across the organizational. Oh, absolutely. And among my leadership team. So in other words, when I go to a meeting and I see that the head of market,

is not pushing the head of sales around something that they see is not good. And then I'm doing it for them. And here's the irony of ironies to wrap this in an interesting cycle. I wasn't making them do it. Okay. But at that point, you are the bottleneck on uncomfortable conversations and growth. Right. So how do you start to spread that responsibility?

Like, what are the actions that you took in that moment? You know what's interesting, Alex? I had to explain to them, this is the key. I finally explained to them the personal cost to me. In other words, I was telling them, you need to do it, you need to do it. Okay, okay, okay. The company's doing fairly well. I got so weary and so beaten down by always doing it.

It wasn't until they actually saw that I was suffering as the result of them not doing it that made them want to do it. I think that was the key because they care about me. And they were like, so you don't like being this person. And it's actually causing you to struggle as just, in general, my joy at work wasn't as high because I was like constantly having to push. And when they realized that I sincerely didn't want to do that, they rallied. And that's what's rallying them. But as long as I was just saying, you're supposed to do it.

You're supposed to do it. Come on. It wasn't until they realized that bearing the cost of that was too much for me. It was personally affecting you. Yeah. And that's something I've never shared with anybody outside of my company. But sometimes as leaders, we have to be vulnerable enough to go, I'm not enjoying my job. and I'm really unhappy because I feel like I'm the bad guy all the time.

And they were like, oh, wow, then we can be the bad guy some of the time. And man, am I a happy, I'm a happy man as a result of it. Oh, that's awesome. I appreciate your vulnerability and your willingness to share that with us. And that applies to what we talked about at the beginning where these tasks that we are all susceptible to avoiding, we should all own not avoiding them, regardless of where we stand on the York. And so what you did is you said we can't avoid difficult conversations as an organization. That's powerful, Pat.

Let's jump to number four, which is running great meetings. Gosh, I read this and I was like, really, I feel like most people consider meetings the greatest waste of time or the worst use of time for the leader because they don't, like, it doesn't feel like it's producing anything. So why is this one of those things that you list as being the crucial use of time and as one of the things a leader? leader can't afford to avoid. Well, what's ironic about this is that the leader is the one responsible for the meetings not being good. And they're going like, I hate meetings. I want to, don't make me come to too many meetings. It's like, yeah, that's because you're abdicating responsibility for making those meetings good. And I'm doing it. I'm planning a TEDx talk I'm going to be doing about all this. And I wrote this down just today. I wrote down, it's about actively running great focused

meetings, actively running, not planning, but actively running great focused meetings. And And the only way for that to happen is if the CEO is sitting there and he or she is willing to say, I think this conversation is not important. I think we're wasting our time. Or I don't think you're being honest and I need to hear what you think. Or I don't think you're doing a good enough job. We've got to figure this out together. Those meetings are never bad and are never a waste of time.

The problem is we're going to meetings and we're not being honest. We're not being tough on each other. And even meetings should be exhausting and uncomfortable. Now, again, so that's how this relates to the previous two. Am I willing to enter the danger in that meeting and say, this is not going well, we have to figure this out. And that's the leader's job. If the leader doesn't want to do that, I had a leader once who used to read the sports page during their meetings or would kind of multitask. And if a conversation wasn't interesting during the meeting, he would check out.

And where he should have been saying, this isn't interesting to me. Is this because I'm not doing my job or because is everybody else bored too? So meetings have to be real. What are the actions the leader takes to make sure they are playing that role correctly? Asking difficult questions, pointing out when we're wasting time, really, really pushing people to speak up. I mean, here's one of the little tiny little things. I like this. If people are being quiet during a meeting, you should assume that's dissent.

not consent. Oh, that's good. And you need to go. So you haven't said anything or you're not verbalizing anything about what we just talked about. I'm guessing you disagree. I mean, imagine if in a meeting a leader just started doing that. Pretty soon people are going to be going, yeah, I disagree. Or no, I actually agree.

It changes the dynamics of that meeting altogether. So asking difficult questions and being willing to be uncomfortable and make others uncomfortable around what you're trying to achieve is going to change meetings. I want you to imagine something real quick. I want you to imagine that you as a business owner are wrapping up your week on a Thursday. Now, I didn't misspeak. I meant Thursday. Think of those four Fridays every single month where you could actually not just work in the business,

but work on the business. You could spend time investing in yourself, investing in leaders, doing things that are different and new to move the business forward. Now, I know you're waiting for a catch. How could I take Fridays off to work on the business? But it is possible. We've seen business owners do this. And our friends at Belay have a guide to help you maximize your productivity Monday through Thursday so that you can actually find that time on Friday.

They're going to give you advice for delegating effectively and empowering your team. And even if you as a leader take one thing away that can make you more productive, well, then it's worth the download. So text Belay to 3196 to get this free guide. Again, that's Belay spelled B-E-L-A-Y to 3-9-96 to get access. to their productivity guide and start working on the business on Fridays. Man, I know for a fact that what you're talking about is scaring the daylights out of people right now because I think there are some people that walk into the meeting room and they call it a meeting, but in reality it's a presentation.

And the leader will present or an individual will present and everyone sits there and listens and whether they're dissenting or agreeing, they just sit there and listen and then they leave the room. And so what you are talking about is way scarier and way, I mean, way more Wild Wild West to a degree. So how do you start to make that shift and how do you get the team to go along with you in shifting from presenting to actually we're going to meet about this and we're going to discuss it? So I wrote a book called Death by Meeting, which really gets into this. And what I realized is there were two problems with meetings. One, they were boring and they were ineffective. And these are related to one another.

boring meetings are boring because there's no conflict. A boring movie, a boring book is bad because there's no conflict. People are naturally drawn toward tension and they want to know how it's going to get resolved. It's not like conflict for the sake of conflict in a mean way. It's like people need a reason to care. So if you go to a meeting and it's just like, we're going to go over our numbers, we're going to go around the table, we're going to blah, blah, blah. If there's no, like, edginess, if there's no risk, if there's no, nothing really at stake,

and that's the leader's job is to make sure people know what's at stake, then it's not going to work. It's not going to be interesting. But beyond that, a meeting needs the proper level of context. It's like, why are we here? And as I tell people, sometimes you should have a five-minute meeting every day on your leadership team. Boy, if you're a small company, like an on-trade leadership company, you should be getting together with your leaders once a day for five minutes, standing up and just saying, what's everybody working on today? You're not solving a problem. You're not voting. You're not brainstorming. You're just going around the table and getting on the same page. Fine. that's very different than a weekly tactical meeting where you get together and say these are our goals these are how we're doing in our numbers these are the issues we're having let's see if we can wrestle any of these to the ground in the next hour or two and move forward we're not going to step back and review our 12 year plan we're not going to talk about big hairy audacious things we're also not going to go over our schedule for the day it's a tactical meeting to see if we're making progress then you have to have a third kind of meeting when one of those big hairy issues comes up we have to go have a meeting where all we talk about is that issue for two hours we're going to roll up our sleeves get some pizza

get some beer and really wrestle with this. We're going to argue. We're going to debate. We're going to brainstorm. And all we're going to talk about is that one thing. And then every few months, we're going to get off site and we're just going to take a breath and say, hey, are we getting along well? Are we focused on the right things?

Those are four different kinds of meetings, Alex. And you can't have them simultaneously. But that's exactly what we do, especially in small businesses. We say we're going to have our weekly staff meeting or our weekly team meeting. And we have what I call meetings do, which is where everybody gets into the room. And it's like, and we talk. talk about tactics, administrivia, strategy, future, past, competitors, interpersonal stuff. And in no particular order either. We just kind of pick it out of a hat and just go with this topic.

Exactly. Where are we going to have the Christmas party this year? How are we going to solve the financial problem that might put us out of business? And, hey, Bob, you and Mary don't get along very well. And at the end of the meeting, everybody's like, what do we do? I have meeting stew in my house when my wife and I are brushing our teeth in the morning. And I, we're talking to it's like, hey, who's picking up the kids from school? What are we having for dinner? Do you think our child has a discipline problem? And where should we go on vacation this year?

And do you want to have another baby? And we're like, ah! And you know, a week later, my wife says, I'm pregnant. And I thought you said we were going to have chicken. You know, it's like, well, we, and companies do this all the time. It's like, and people go to the meetings going, this is going to be a crap show. And at the end of it, we're going to be frustrated, but it's corporate penance. We just get through it and then we'll go back to our jobs.

No, we have to say, what is the purpose of? this meeting. Is it a five-minute meeting? Is it a one-hour meeting where we're going to stick to this agenda? Is it a big hairy meeting around one big topic or is it stepping back? And I know that sounds very prescriptive, but it's not. It's just we need context and conflict if we're going to make our meetings great. And only the leader can ensure that there's conflict and context. Because if the leader doesn't want conflict in their meetings, the people that work for him or her are not going to do that because they're going to get overtly or covertly punished for that. The leader has to say, I want this meeting to be exhausting.

I want it to be interesting. I want it to be difficult. I want people to disagree with one another. I'm going to reward you for doing that. And at the end of it, we will make decisions and come to commitments much better than our competitors. That's one hell of a lot more interesting than Bill. Can you read the minutes from last week's meeting? Oh, yeah.

And as a team member, I will be more engaged at that job than any other job previously because I feel like I'm actually, I think the word invested. I am invested in the role that I am playing. Okay, so let me ask you this because I know this is important. Say you shift to this style of meeting. You provide context and as a result, for the first time ever, there's some conflict. And you have someone that has the boldness and the courage and the audacity to speak up and say, I disagree and actually states a real opinion, maybe for the first time in the history of the company. As a leader, how do you respond to that? You should stop the meeting, pull $100 out of your wallet and hand it to them. You know what Alan Malali did?

Are you serious? Well, no, not necessarily. It depends what your currency is in your organization. There's better currency than that. Alan Malawi stood up in a meeting when somebody finally did something like that and applauded. He just stood there and applauded because nobody had Ford had ever done that. What I say you should do is you should stop them right there. And you should say, hey, everybody, I want to tell you something.

What you just did or what you two are doing now because two people might be debating, this is exactly what we need. and I want more of this and I want to thank you for this. I want everybody around the table to realize this is exactly what I want. Keep going. Now, it sounds really crazy, but those two people that are engaged in conflict or that one guy or gal who stood up and said, I disagree, inevitably, I don't care how old they are, how rich they are, what they're Myers-Briggs type is. They are going to feel guilty because they're breaking a team norm.

And even the leaders said, I want you to do it. They're going to feel bad. And that's why the leader needs to do something counterintuitive and stop them right there and give them real-time permission and rewards. And if telling them that I appreciate what you're doing, it's good for the team is not enough, then take that $100 out and give it to them too. That's right.

I'm all about the $100. We love that around here. Don't just let it go. Don't just let it go and go. Well, I'm glad to say, I love that. And at the end of it, celebrate it again and say, that is going to make these meetings more interesting and more compelling and more effective

because we just had the hard conversation that we didn't have. And you know something, Alex, nobody argues with this. knows that not talking about the elephant under the table or in the corner is a recipe for horrible misery. Nobody just wants to be the one to kind of drag that elephant out there. We've all been there too. I think everyone has either been a part of a family or an organization or a team where there's something going on that no one has the courage to actually say anything about. And like you said, you feel trapped and you feel miserable. And it makes every other conversation

feel worthless because you know you're not talking about the thing that actually matters. Exactly. Now, all of this is predicated on some level of trust. I mean, if I'm talking to a leader, this is why team building has to come in. If you don't have trust on your team and you haven't built that kind of trust, having conflict during your meetings is probably going to be a bloodbath because they don't trust each other and nobody's going to actually admit when they're wrong. Arguing with somebody who cannot admit they're wrong is banging your head on a wall. But that's why the leader has to say, we're going to build a team and build a team and a decent level of trust.

So when we go to our meetings, we're not just doing this to have team building. It's so when we go to our meetings, we can engage in good conflict and realize we're all doing it for the right reason. Because when you trust somebody, conflict is nothing but the pursuit of truth or the best possible answer. Say that again, because I want to make sure people get that. When you have trust with a person, vulnerability-based trust, and you know they're honest and they're open and they care, then conflict becomes nothing but the pursuit of truth

or the best possible answer. when you don't have trust conflict becomes manipulation and a desire to win that's powerful and i love how you kind of alluded to the fact that all four and and coming up on five of these things that we so commonly avoid all tie together and they all support each other in this pursuit of being a great leader and running a great team so let's jump into that fifth one which is constantly communicating and repeating key messages explain why you this was one of the top five things that you wanted to list and why it's so important. Yeah, this is an interesting one because most people don't realize this, and I didn't either,

but the reticence of leaders to overcommunicate, to repeat themselves, a CEO, I don't care how big your organization is, you're really the CRO, which is the chief reminding officer. You're also the CTO, the chief team officer. You're also other things, the CCO, the chief clarity officer, all those things. But if you're not reminding people constantly of what really matters, and I don't care, Gary Kelly at Southwest Airlines constantly, constantly repeats himself to employees about their mission and what's really important. He does it in different ways, but he doesn't complain about that and say, this is boring to me or it doesn't feel like it's very sophisticated. I'd like to talk about something more complicated or interesting.

His job is to keep everybody on the same page. And so many leaders I know with good intentions often say, I shouldn't repeat myself because it's going to, be redundant. It's a waste of time. And it might even be insulting to my audience. The fact of the matter is, the best companies in the world are the ones that are constantly, I mean, looking at your office, right, people can't see this probably, but there's a thing behind you that says fight for the mission. Yeah. Now, do you think that if every time Dave stands up in front of employees and says, listen, remember the mission of why we're here, don't lose sight of that. Let me tell you another story about it. Let me tell you a call I got on the radio. Let me tell you an entrepreneur who did this well.

I mean, that is truly what he does. Right. he's a chief reminding officer. Yeah. I mean, all the time he is talking about. Like, I can honestly use some of the same intonation that he uses when he tells certain stories. But I think there's tremendous value to that because now I find myself believing in it just as much as he does. Exactly.

And you know how many leaders stop way short of what Dave does because they think, well, people get it. I said it once. I wrote a book. I mean, they've probably picked up the book. I don't need to repeat myself. and I don't want them to think that I think they're stupid. Nobody ever leaves an organization or goes home at night and says, honey, I hate this job.

The leader keeps repeating himself and keeps reminding us how important what we do is. I mean, you know what I think? I think half the reason why people listen to Dave's program, even after they've used it. People that get out of debt don't stop listening to his program, they listen to it because it's fun to listen to him be so passionate about it. Yes. I love hearing him go through it again, and he's not bored with it.

No, but I think there's something. powerful but also unique there in that he has been teaching the same seven baby steps for personal finance for 25 years. And he has taught the same seven baby steps to phone callers for three hours every day for 25 years. I look at myself in the mirror, but I think we all, from a leadership perspective, look at ourselves in the mirror and say, I don't know that I would have the discipline to do that. Because I think I would get ADD and I would go on to something that is more fun, more convenient or more comfortable or say it in a new way. But it sounds like what you're saying is that there is power in doing the same thing

over and over and over again. Absolutely. And Dave embraces that discipline and realizes how important it is to people. And the other reason why people listen to a show, because there's a decent chance at some point he might say to somebody, don't be a butthole. He said that once to somebody, man, that's the first time I heard somebody say, butthole on the radio. And I said, this is the best show.

It's kind of like watching hockey because you know there's always a chance they might get into a fight, right? Like you're not really watching hockey. You're just looking for the fight. And he says, what kind of car do you drive? And you're waiting for them to go, Maserati. And he's like, what? What are you doing? Yeah.

And he loves him through it, though. He loves them through it. That's right. See, Dave doesn't, Dave doesn't be nice to them at the expense of loving them. He's kind enough to them to say, that's really bad. You got to change that. dude. Yeah, and because I care about you so much, I'm going to be ruthlessly direct with you. Yep. There's so much power in that, and there's so much to be learned from that.

Another thing that I've learned working here, but also listening to You Teach and working for other great organizations, is that there are a lot of leaders out there, and especially the really exceptional leaders, that when we think of organizations like Disney and like Google, like Ramsey Solutions, certainly like your organization, the table group, we think about Simon Sinek as someone that does this, exceptionally well. These leaders are people that take the day-to-day work that every team member is doing and they lift their perspective just a little higher. And I know in the advantage, you talk about casting an aspiration or a dream that is just out of reach or just a little bit further or just a little bit under making the world a better place. And so I guess what are the things that a leader should do if that doesn't come naturally to them, but they know it's important? So I think the question is, this leads us into the other thing too, I think a person in order to be a great leader has to be just a little geeky, just a little kooky about their mission. If people don't say, wow, that guy is really into that, then there's probably something missing. And that's what passion comes from. You know what I mean?

I don't think you can be a great leader if you're not passionate about the mission. It doesn't mean you have to be the founder or all that, but although many times in an entrepreneurial business, somebody said, that problem is really worth solving. When I go to Entree Leadership conferences, I meet these people, and they're just like so, so passionate about what they're trying to do for people. And in the world, you know, when you're in school and you're passionate like that, people make fun of you. And even in the world, people will go, okay, that's enough.

You're so passionate about that. It's like, no, that's great. And if Dave goes to a cocktail party and is talking to people about getting out of debt, it's not like, okay, enough about that. It's like, no, this is going to change your life. And so, you know, I was just here yesterday talking to a guy who was the founder of a company. It's named Sangram Vajre. I don't know if I pronounce it.

V-A-J-R-E. He has a company called Terminus. And he walks in, we're talking to him. I look down at his shoes. Now, this is a successful business guy. He has a marketing company called Terminus based in Atlanta, really good company. And he has on his shoes the acronym for account-based marketing. It was ABM.

And ABM equals B-D. B2B. And this is a guy who's a successful businessman. He's wearing shoes that say ABM equals B2B. It's written on his shoes? On his shoes. And not professional like printed on his shoes. And I'm like, he's on an airplane or at a meeting. And people are like, what's the deal with your shoes? And he's like, yeah, yeah. So account based marketing, that's what I do. And that's what business to business really is. And see, people ask me about this and I get to tell them about it. And people are like, but I don't know if that's cool. And it's like, it doesn't matter. See, I'm really passionate about this. And that's why 700 companies are using our stuff because they know I care about it as much as they do.

So think about that. When you look at Dave and you look at this guy and you look at Alan Malawi, they're a little bit geeky in their own way. Now, but they're geeky around something that they believe that matters. And the world tells you not to be that way. And to be the leader of anything, you got to be geeky about something. I believe that. Yeah, I couldn't help but think as you were talking about him in his shoes. I had someone on a coaching call not long ago. She was a real estate agent and she showed up to the call. It was a group of business owner. She showed up to the call wearing a tiara. And I was like, oh my gosh, who is this person? Like, what is going on? And inevitably, one of the people had the courage to call it out and have the uncomfortable

conversation and say, why are you wearing a tiara? This is a business call. And she said, oh, I'm sorry. I should have introduced myself. I'm the queen of Texas real estate. I love it. She wears that tiara everywhere she goes. And she said, Alex, I have sold more houses because people ask me, oh, is it your birthday? And she says, oh, no, it's not my birthday. I'm the queen of Texas real estate. And they say, oh, well, I actually know someone that's looking for her. She has said, I have sold more properties because of this stupid little tiara and it's brilliant it's what you're talking about though she was willing to be a little bit geeky yeah because she knew it was going to get that conversation started and she cared deeply about the business she was trying to grow it is crazy you know we had a vendor come in here now by the way if you're bad at your job and you do that you're foolish

yeah yeah no okay yeah good marketing of a bad product will just make it fail faster right and if you're if you're like well i'm not really into my job but i guess if i have to wear the tiara i will no that's We're talking about people because we had a vendor come in because we needed some technical help. And he walks into our office and he's carrying a statue that must be two and a half feet high. And it's heavy. And it's a, what's the fictional character that people look for in the woods all the time? I'm just, I'm going to brain. Big foot.

Bigfoot. Sasquatch, right? So he's carrying a statue of it. And he puts it in the middle of the table. And I go, what's that? And he goes, yeah, I just brought. I said, did you carry that on the plane? He goes, yeah, I had it on my lap.

And I said, what is that? And he goes, we give this to everybody we pitched to to help them understand. And he had a story behind it. And I was like, if he's bad at this, that's ridiculous. And if he's good at what he does, that's fantastic. Well, that thing is in our office and we're working with those people. Not because he brought it, but because he's the kind of person that feels so strongly about what he does.

He's willing to do something like that to show it. And I think that falls in line with that final point that we've been discussing. that is a form of repeating. Yes. I mean, the tiara and the big Sasquatch, it's all sending a message repeatedly that this is something we believe in and that we stand for. Yeah. And by the way, if he had just said, I don't know why I brought it. I just like to give it out.

There's a story behind it. And I have not, and he's a vendor, so it's not like an employee or, but I don't remember the story, but it was related to what he was showing to us about being the Sasquatch of this thing. And this is how they believe. And I just remember going, well, that makes sense to me. I want to listen to what you have to say. So anyway, geeks, geekiness. I should have read the book. That's right.

I'm going to go just be a little bit more geeky this afternoon. You know what's fine? As we get close to the reveal, people that are leaders for the right reason are willing to be geeky. People that aren't probably won't do it. So that is almost an indicator. Yeah. And it came about on your show, Alex, because you ask these questions. One of the indicators is, would you be a geek for your, because if you're willing to be a geek, you're probably willing to have a hard conversation.

You're probably willing to do team building. You're probably willing to lead a good meeting. You're probably willing to manage your people and to repeat. Okay, so there you go. You just pitched it about as well as you possibly could, Pat. We've talked about the five things we so often avoid. Now give us the big reveal. Give us the big motive.

Why is this all worth it or why should people be leading? Right. And this is going to be disappointed in some ways, but I think it's simple and hopefully profound. It's probably not even new. But that's this. when you ask somebody why they're a leader, there's one of two choices they have. And that is, I'm doing it because I think it's a reward for my talent. I'm the leader, and I've finally arrived, and I'm being rewarded for that.

And because I see it as a reward, that means I'm now entitled to pick and choose what I do based on what I enjoy and what makes me comfortable. The other motivation is I'm the leader, and that's a huge responsibility. It's a burden, and I have to be willing to be burdened for others. And that means I have to do whatever my job entails, even if, especially if it's something that nobody else wants to do or can do. If I see my job as a responsibility and I say, I owe it to those people that work for me and to my customers and to this mission, then I have to do those things.

And when I don't want to, that's probably a sign that it's especially important. But why would a person who took the job or worked hard for the job or seized the job as a reward for them, why would they choose to do? It actually makes no sense. Why would you do uncomfortable, unpleasant things if the reason why you want the job is for yourself? Why would I want to look like a geek? Why would I want to ruin a really nice pair of shoes or walk through an airport and people think I'm some technical guy instead of some cool guy? It's because this is going to sell more.

It's going to help more clients. It's going to help my employees. It's going to advance something that I believe is worthwhile. So geeks are usually geeks for others. People that want to be cool are usually cool for themselves. And that parlays into the uncomfortable conversations and the leading meetings and spending time. Like there is no reason to take the risk of an uncomfortable conversation if you're only in it for yourself. Absolutely.

And I love that people could say this rocked me to my core because all of us can probably look at life is not black or white. I'm just responsibility center. I'm just, there are some people that are all in it for themselves, and there's some people that are completely selfless leaders. But all of us can look at times where we go, how selfless am I? Not enough to do that one. And that's where it can rock us to our core and go, okay, I just chose myself over the mission. I'm going to make the right decision next time. Or if, gosh, I'm five for five, I don't like doing any of these things. Maybe it's time for me not to be the leader because I'm not doing it for the right reason. So how do we, I think there's parallels to your ideal team player

book in that the natural impulse can sometimes start evaluating the humility, hunger, and smartness of others, and you don't actually look in the mirror and evaluate yourself, right? And so, like, the same thing in reading this book and thinking about what you're talking about here today, rewards centered leadership versus responsibility and all these things that we can either avoid or own. I start evaluating other people and it's in reality, like the first person I need to look at as the person that's in the mirror. So how do we accurately self-evaluate our motive for leadership? Well, I think the back of the book, all my books are fiction stories. And I think this is my best fiction yet. People that read it say, wow, this fiction was really edgy and it surprised me and all those

other things. So thank God for that. I didn't know that. The back of the book, I explain the model and the ideas. And I take people through some things they can reflect on. And most people read it. I actually put together a questionnaire at one point in my editor, Tracy, who works with me. She said, no, this is too obvious because basically it was like, do you like, do you like, do you like, Pat, I think when they read it, it's going to be pretty obvious. So I think reading the back of the book and understanding the story, people will be able to assess themselves pretty easily. And I tell people, if you had a stack of my books and it was like, which one should I start with? This is actually the prequel to all my others, because if you're not sure why you're a leader,

then teaching you how to be a better leader isn't going to make any sense. So I think this one actually is the front end. And fortunately, it's the shortest book I've written so far. far too. So you could start with the shortest one. That's right. I mean, I thought to myself, I wish someone had given me this book probably freshman year of high school was probably when I needed it. I think the earlier, the better. And so we'll put the link to the book in the show notes of this episode. Here's the line that hit me to my core. It's in the fiction portion of the book. And the character that you're talking about, this is what he's... I can't wait to hear this. Yeah, that's right. For an author to have somebody pick something out, I'm like, oh, which one is it?

It's when he said, when I do anything that no one else can do because they're not the CEO, I smile and thank God that I am making a difference. I have the worst and best, loneliest and most social, most appreciated and most thankless job in the company. And I do that job with pride and without complaint because that was what I signed up for, even if I didn't realize it until someone told me. Pat, I got chills the first time that I read that. I've got chills reading it again. That's it. That is it. That is. is the motive. And so if someone is sitting there saying like, oh my gosh, I'm having this wake up moment right now that there have been times maybe more recently than I'd like to admit that I've been doing this for the wrong reasons, how do we start to shift that motive to make sure that we're pursuing leadership for the right reasons? I think it's first of all to sit in the truth of it. secondly, not to feel guilty for it, and third, to choose to do the right things starting now in small ways. I mean, I love my wife and my marriage is more important.

My marriage and my family are more important than my business. But I can look back in my life and say, you know, there were times in my marriage when I was pretty much expecting my wife to make my life easier and to fit into it. And that's a hard thing to come to terms with. And then go, I don't want to do that anymore. And rather than lament the past, just start to live differently now and realize that everybody, you know what's key in the story of those two characters? The character that taught the other guy, you know when he gained credibility is when he admitted

that he had failed in the past. You remember that part? It's so powerful. It's so powerful to recognize that someone else made this shift because then you start to recognize this is possible for me to make this shift as well. And when a person converts to doing things for the right reason, man, they're the best to teach others. So it's not too late.

It's never too late. Oh, by the way, you know what I want to do, a selfless plug for? I'm really terrible at this, but I promise my friends. No, well, I was going to ask you, actually, I hope this is what you're about to do a selfless plug for is you are now in the podcasting world as well. So the motive, we're putting the link to the motive, but also tell our people about the podcast that you've got coming out. For those people that are listening, and entree leadership people are like, when I go to the

conferences, it's like a party. I mean, these are the hungriest, most passionate people. They love to learn. My kids think it's pretty cool that I'm in my 50s and I'm doing a podcast, by the way, but I'm loving it because it's basically just conversations around something that I'm geeky for. So if you're a geek for organizational culture and teamwork and leadership and all this kind of and the workplace, the podcast is just once a week. It's called At the Table with Patrick Lynchoney and me and Cody, my co-host and other people

who join us, whoever's in the office, whoever we invite in. We just have great conversations around various aspects of work life. And so far people seem to like it. We're having a blast. And so if your people want to avail themselves of that, we'd love it if they'd subscribe at the table with Patrick Lynchoney. And we're going to tell you all, y'all definitely should go check that out. We'll put the link to his podcast and the book and the show notes.

So make sure you go check out everything that Pat is doing. Pat, thank you for being such a friend of our organization and a friend of our audience. And thank you for writing this book because I think it is going to change a lot of lives. And because it changes a lot of lives of leaders, I think the ripple effect of this. This book in particular is going to be massive. So thank you so much. Thanks for having me tell Dave and all my Ramsey friends. I said hello.

God bless you guys. There is only one Patrick Lynchione. We are so grateful to him and his team for this conversation, for his investment in our team, and for his investment into our audience. And I'll tell you, folks, the motive, it is seriously good. I devoured this book, and I would recommend you as the owner and your team do the same.

If you want to get it, head and click the link that's in the show notes. And hey, one of the things that we talked about in this conversation is that one word, why? Why do you choose to lead? Why does your business exist? Why does all of this matter? Those are big questions that really only the leader can answer. And we believe that leaders should answer those questions by creating and communicating an effective mission statement. You need to start with your personal why, your personal mission statement, and then that should inform your business mission statement. And our team created a free resource to help you, the podcast audience, do just that.

It's called the mission statement mapper. And it's going to walk you through an exercise that will help you identify and then articulate your core purpose as a business leader. So if you want to take advantage of this free resource, go ahead and text the word mission to 3344. Again, that's the word mission to 33444. 444 or just click the length that's in the show notes. Well, I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Entree Leadership podcast. If you did, please give us a five-star review and tell your friends to subscribe. For a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card, you can review this episode by clicking the link

that's in the show notes. And be sure to follow us on social media at Entree Leadership. This episode was produced by Tim Hull, and it was edited and mixed by Will Rudder. I'm Alex Judd, and on behalf of the entire Entree Leadership team, thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again very soon. If you enjoy this podcast, you should check out other great podcasts from the Ramsey Network, like the Christy Wright Show. Hey, y'all, I'm Christy Wright. You know, it's so easy to feel stuck. You live life, just going through the motions, doing dishes, doing laundry, carpool lines, and a whole list of commitments that bring you no joy.

We say yes to what everyone expects of us, and we have no energy or time for what we want. And let's be honest, most of the time, we don't even know what we want. Why do we live like that? God certainly never called us to. You know, I believe that the life God has for us is bigger and more amazing than any of us realize. That's why I want you to check out the Christy Wright Show. Every week, we will fire you up to break through what's holding you back and inspire you to create a life you love and are proud of. Each episode will help you build confidence in yourself and the God that created you. To hear full episodes, just search Christy Wright, wherever you listen to podcasts, or go to ramsysolutions.com slash shows.