EntreLeadership - #365: 3 Ways to Make a Powershift with Daymond John

Episode Date: March 9, 2020

Making a major change in your life is never easy, especially when you don’t know how or where to start. But each of us has more influence over our lives than we think, says Daymond John, a tenacious entrepreneur, bestselling author and fashion-industry pioneer. In this episode, Daymond gives an inside look at what it means to make what he calls a powershift: shifting your energy to focus on what matters most in order to drive positive change in your life.   entreleadership.com/podcast Daymond John's website Powershift by Daymond John Start With Why by Simon Sinek Start with Why TED talk Display of Power by Daymond John The Brand Within by Daymond John Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill EntreLeadership's Business Health Assessment Review this episode for a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card     Want expert help with your business question? Call 844-944-1070 and leave a message or send an email to [e-mail]. You could be featured on a future podcast episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What do Instagram, Uber, the iPad, Airbnb, Venmo, and Alexa all have in common? They didn't exist 10 years ago. The world is changing, folks, fast. And therefore, one of the required skill sets of leadership today is the ability to read the landscape of the marketplace and change. From the Ramsey Network, this is the Entree Leadership podcast where we help business leaders grow themselves, their teams, and their profits. I'm your host, Alex Judd, and today we're talking with one of this year's summit speakers. speaker's Damon John. He's the founder of the multi-billion-dollar clothing brand Fubu, one of the iconic investors on ABC Shark Tank, CEO of the Shark Group, and is the author of a new book called

Power Shift. Damon is someone who knows personally the value of intentional, proactive change. And this is a principle that was magnified and clarified for him in 2017 when he was diagnosed with cancer. You know, I was out at dinner with a very successful friend of who discovered Sigmund Roy and managed Muhammad Ali. And he says, I mean, you know, with all the money you have, why don't you go get an executive physical? You know, you don't do that. And I said, what's an executive physical?

I said, I get a physical every year. Pretty much worked out for me for the last, you know, 50 years. And he said, no, no, no, get an executive physical. So I said, I go and say, what's an executive physical? I find out it's like running on a hamster wheel for two days and they're checking everything. You're the $6 million man or a $6 million woman. I go, I do this. secular physical. During the physical, they say, you know, we want to check the

carata veins because we want to just check if there are any blockage in it because, obviously, there's a risk of a stroke, a higher risk of a stroke. We check those. They check them. They say veins are nice, veins are cool, but, you know, you have a little nodule on your thyroid and I think you should probably go get that nodule checked out, go to your regular position or doctor or whatever. I go down to my doctor. You know, they say, all right, we're going to take a biopsy. 90% chance we're going to be able to figure out what it is. And 10% chance we can't figure out what it is.

Well, of course, just my luck. The 10% chance they can't figure out what it is. The doctor says to me, listen, I suggest you probably take out your thyroid because here's your risk. You know, you're not 90 years old. And if it's a challenge in there, you'll be able to take it out and know that you are, you know, healthy. The flip side is, you'll be taking on a perfectly good thyroid. What are you going to do? Take it out, Doc, no problem.

Go, the one-hour surgery to remove this little nodule on my thyroid becomes three and a half hours of removing what I didn't know at the time was stage two cancer, the size of about a golf wall. And it takes about two weeks, of course, for them to test it and give you what it is. And, you know, a doctor, you know how it is. Doc, what is it? I don't know. What is it? I have no idea. Is it a golf ball?

So were you going crazy during that time period? Just wondering what's going on with you? What is it? What is it? But the doctor, he could tell him. He's done this. He's one of the top surgeons in the world. He knew what it was.

It was a hard mass size. But they don't tell you these things smart enough because why would you say cancer? It doesn't have that. But I got to live with the two weeks of it. And what happened at that point of my life? It was I had two ways to look at these things and perspective. I said to myself at one point, I knew that it was cancer. I didn't know how bad it was because after that, even though thyroid cancer is the slowest growing cancer, then once it gets to your lymph notes, then it gets into your brain.

And it can travel various many places, of course. For the two weeks, it's been the longest two weeks of my life and I start negotiating with myself. How do people control this emotions, you know, these negative emotions that take us all over because as entrepreneurs, we're always faced with negative emotions, you know? We can't tell anybody our problems because everyone's, you know, we can't tell anybody our problems because everyone's, you know, he thinks we walk on water. You tell any of your staff that something's going on and if you don't get this check or this account that you're closing the business, you can't tell them. They're going to leave you after that because they've got to secure their futures. You have financial strains on your life between you and your significant others and other people. And you look at somebody

like, you know, Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade, you know, mental health in the entrepreneurial world is really challenging because it's so much stress, right? You take on 80 hours worth of work so you don't have to work 40, as the old saying goes, right? And so you can have freedom, right? Yeah, freedom. So you're the first of the office, the last to leave, and you're the last one to get paid. Yeah.

So, you know, those are the challenges that I was dealing with, you know? And I managed to shift it, but I said, every one of us does this in some sense or another. Or a lot of us feel like power has been taken away from us or hasn't been given to us. It's not up to somebody else to issue you power. Okay, so just to close the loop on the story, story, Damon, are you cancer-free now? I am cancer-free. However, of course, I have to go get check-ups

and one time there was still some bumps or something up here in my lymph notes, but it was the body reacting to the trauma. But for six months, you know, the doctor goes, well, there's some activity of lumps there. Looks okay, but we don't know. We'll see what it is in six months. So for six months, I'm walking around thinking, I may have cancer. I don't care, though. Mentally, I'm done and I'm fine. So it was like, oh, no problem, you know. That's an intense perspective to have. And you use the term power shift. It sounds like you equate that to putting yourself in the driver's seat and really taking ownership of what's going on in your life. Is that, is that a fair assessment? It is a fair assessment in one sense,

but also power shift is the ability for you to have power also is to be able to shift it to others. because if you shift it to others in return, it gives you more. And I'm not trying to be all warm and fuzzy about it, but you shift it to your staff, right? You shift it to your family. And in return, they do more for you, and it's kind of a symbiotic relationship. People that I've seen,

and there's no one way to acquire or exercise power. I've seen people do it where they don't shift it to anybody else, and who knows how much more they could have gotten out of life and all those relationships because of the nurturing aspect. of it. So how has that recognition that came from that story you just told us change the way you view business and leadership? It enhanced the way I see it. It didn't totally change it. It enhanced the way I see it because it made me realize that, you know, a lot of the people that I've seen along the road and along the way and we work with each other who we have done some form of

transactional business or some level of want to do business, let me dig deeper. And of those relationships because, you know, listen, a customer in any way or somebody you've done a transaction with is a customer, right? And there's three ways. There's only three ways to deal with a customer, right? You know, acquire a new one, upsell a current one, or make one buy more frequently, right? But the acquiring of a new customer is 21 times harder than anything else, right? They're already customers someplace else. Why wasn't I digging back into my relationships, Rolodex, in my pockets, and whatever the case is? And ups and ups, up, selling a current one or making them buy more frequently.

And, you know, so I started to do that. I started to nurture the relationships I had. And what it made me realize is that we're so transactional these days and probably always have that we don't realize and a lot of entrepreneurs don't realize, especially early entrepreneurs, they think that the power in their lives or whatever is the day they get to the negotiating table. But it's not. It's the day that I heard your name and I picked up the phone and looked for you and looked at your social media.

Then it's the negotiation, but the negotiation is in negotiation. If you show up at the office late and or you don't give me, you show up my meeting lane, you don't give me enough information here and there. I don't care what's on the piece of paper. How good your numbers are. You're ruining the negotiation prior. And then also after the transaction is done, there's an empty relationship there when we could have done 10 or 20 other things more. And so I tried to simplify it.

and put it in these perspectives because people like to dress up human behavior and human actions and they make it seem so complicated. It's super, super simple. And so people don't really understand what they actually want or why they want it and they haven't done the research and the homework. That's one of the big things that I picked out from your book, Damon, is I love how practical it gets on influence, negotiated shit, and relationships. But I also like how you establish the foundation for all those things as being knowing what you want and what you stand for and why you want what you want. So can you teach us a little bit on why those core questions are so important? Yeah.

No secret. Anybody who's ever watched you or in our business world know about the great book, the question of why, right? Yeah. But we don't ask it enough, right? And why is that important? Because I've seen so many people who have either had careers and corporations or being an entrepreneur and they realized they're on that hamster wheel and they didn't know what

were going for? What was the purpose of it? I'm guilty of it myself. I lost my first marriage due to working 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and wasn't I working that hard so I can create the resource to be with my family? But now I'm working more to not be, and I'm not being with my family, right? So if we would have gone back in time and asked Damon at that time when you were in the hustle and the grind of building Fubu, why are you doing this? Is that what you would have said? Or what do you think you would have said at that time? I got hit by lightning. I found the golden goose and most of us don't get to this point of my life and anything worth doing is worth overdoing. And I would have said, I can't. In the event,

this thing's going to fail because a hot fashion brand lasts five to seven years and I'm on my fifth year, I want to know that I left it all on the table. But then there would have been another excuse after that, and it was, on why I acquired another brand, and I'm like, all right, well, now I got a second bite of the apple. I can't let myself down and care about what people think about I'm not just a one-trick pony. Then it would have been another excuse. And before you know, my kids would have been, you know, graduating out of school. I would have never seen my wife. And, you know, I would have had who to love at that time. You can't love a bunch of T-shirts and jeans in your inventory. Every time I co-insend, you know, every time I co-end, you know, I would have

side with someone for this program, like yourself, that's kind of a serial entrepreneur. I'm always struck by the capacity to envision a future that doesn't yet exist and to be crystal clear about exactly what you want to create for your life and for others in the future. Is that something that is naturally wired into who you are? Or is that something that you developed? Clearly developed it. When I was making these power shifts in my life, I didn't. know I was making them. I had no idea. But after a while, if you're constantly taking inventory, you know, people, we always take inventory of our hard assets and our business, you know, you wouldn't be in business if you didn't know how the numbers work. But I constantly have

taken inventory of myself. So I'm hoping that this book reflects with all these great people and what they're doing or what they've lost or what they've done. And I want people to take inventory themselves and say, well, where are my assets and liabilities? And what do I own? What is my commodity? And what do I want to envision? I mean, you're really asking me my why. Did I ever know my why? Your why starts to unfold every day. It changes. And so what is it for you right now, Damon? So my why, obviously, after the cancer scare is to live a better and healthier life to be a better father and a better person. How do I use my public platform to create change? I can, obviously I love philanthropy, but I'm on the Petco board foundation and and various other boards

and foundations. And I know where is my why? Well, why am I doing it? Okay, the obvious reason is there. But where is my power? Yeah, I can write checks and I do write checks. But if I can get on a public stage and a public platform and I can go out there and share information in a very specific way, You know, I happen to be, fortunately or unfortunately, I happen to be one of the few people of color who was not related to music or sports who made it, right? There's many who have made it, but a public person like that. So one of my whys are I want the entire world to know that due to certain methods and tactics and techniques that anybody can make it. Man, woman, female, Chinese, black, yellow, I mean, whatever the case is. That's my why.

I want to know that, you know, before I go that, that, and I can. I guess maybe it's a little bit about being on Shark Tank for 11 years because the first two seasons of Shark Tank, I was just out there looking for a deal. I was not caring about, I'm going to motivate people. Screw you. I need a deal. All right? I think that is such a powerful concept, though, because I think people read books like start with why or they see the TED talk or they understand the value of a purpose for their business or a purpose for their life. And they feel like they have to have it right now. But it sounds like in reality. yours unfolded over time and you were just smart enough to pay attention to what was unfolding. 100% because many people have started off and their why was somebody else's why. Their why was, you know, in this family, we all, we're a family of doctors. And, you know, you may have been pressured with that ever since you were three, five, or ten years old.

You grew up to be a doctor. But at the end of the day, you were creative. You wanted to be a cartoonist, right? and you find your why a little bit later. You know, one of the things that spawned one of those moments that you asked me what had happened. When I was going through this challenge, one of my friends said to me, why would you leave everybody if you've always been here for people that you don't even know and you always wanted to push people?

I said, what are you talking about, be here for everybody you want to know? They was like, listen, let me tell you something. You may think that you were an animal or a savage or a greedy little kid and that you just wanted to do things and make some money and have some gold chains. but your brand called Fulb was for us bias, you know, making a brand for a culture, bioculture. You wanted to empower entire culture. You could have named the Damon John, just like many people have named it Ralph Laurencalk and I would have a kid. You said, you didn't do that.

Then you go and write books and you write books and your books were, it wasn't about, you know, look at me, ha ha, my great life. It was display of power, how you can have power because all of us have the same power. The next one is the brand within. How you're a brand. All that stuff. Then you start investing in other people. you do public speaking to inspire other people, then you want to show them, start investing other people. He said, you don't realize what your why is. Your why is to help others. And I was like,

don't make you sound like some, you know, some do-gooder because I'm not. And he was like, you are, you know, so I think that was one of the moments also. My why has unfolded over the course of time. I think there's a powerful principle there too, and that so often we may not be able to see it in ourselves, but the people that are closest to us can actually pick it out through our actions. That's a powerful concept. Okay, so once we have that undergirding of getting clear on what we want and why we want it and the direction that we're moving, how does that tie into this topic of influence, Damon? Well, what we want, how we're going about it. So how do you pick your targets after that? Again, you're taking inventory. How do you pick your targets of what you want and how are you going

to go about it? Now, is that time, is that money, is that effort, is it education? Like, how do you pick the targets, but you have to pick them. Are you crystal clear on what you want to do the next 10 years or 20 years? And how are you going to do that? You might be. Are you asking me right now? If you want to answer, sure. Man, I appreciate this. So my vision for my career and what I would like to do is I want to communicate, teach, right, lead and work with people and make a living doing it. And then I've got a little bit even more beyond that about what that actually looks like and how that plays out over an extended period of time. I mean, obviously you're working me through that exercise, but I think it applies uniquely to the business owner, too, because we see it all the time. The people

that own businesses, they do exactly what I did, right? You asked me what my vision was, and my mind went straight to my career. And I gave you a crystal clear answer there, but it's like, why don't I have as crystal clear of an answer in my social world, in my family world, in my financial world, in my spiritual and my intellectual growth, right, in my physical goals. I can answer the career question all day and all night, but it sounds like what you're saying is you need a more well-rounded vision of what you want and why you want it. And I wish I could tell you that I had that mine was 100% done as well, but it's not. But at least I know that that is the objective. So I'm going to buy 85%, 90% on how I'm going to get there. And you know what? During the time of getting to that,

I know at least my targets, my inventory of people that I should engage, relate, my direction of an education that I should have, going back to my inventory of influence and what has worked in the past with myself in regards to executing. So a lot of these things you just start to put together and they understand your, you know, you understand your power. So a lot of these things we need to write down and jot out and that will help us. You're just clarifying the, idea that you are on a mission and that mission at its core is not really about you. It's to serve and meet needs in others because you feel like businesses are solving problems and just seems like you are being about the business of doing what you're supposed to be doing. So when we see you

on Shark Tank, I'd like to know, are there three qualities that really stand out to you as being kind of a common thread, but behind the entrepreneurs that are and the business owners that are really successful on that show. Yeah. They took small affordable steps, very small affordable steps when they started out. They started out with no money and that's what they did. They constantly educated and improved themselves and like, you know, what's Steve Jobs say? He was a tinkerer. It's just experimenting. Yeah. And they walk into the room as a problem solver and people, want to be around them because of that. And like you were just saying, you know, you're going to spend more time working with people than you may be at home, right, or something you said like that nature.

That's the reality of it. So whether there's a kid right now watching this thing and they're going to come to, you know, go to an office and ask for an interview, right? Your resume is fine. It's cute. It's nice. It's good. The reality is, can I sit next to you five days a week, eight hours a day for the next five years of my life? Do I like you? What are some small actions? that people can take to move towards being that type of person that you're talking about. Well, besides what we've already talked about, a vast amount of time in regards to why, is how are they communicating? How are they working on their way to send messaging out, their body language,

the way that they're allowing information to come into them. A lot of us react. We don't respond. We react. We don't take a break for a second and say, how am I internalizing this conversation? Am I bringing all my problems to the table right now? And a lot of times when you just pause for a second, you can increase your ability to communicate.

Also, what is that other person want really, really bad? Reading people and understanding what they want. You know, in Shark Tank a lot of times, you'll see, and I've been listening, on Shark Tank, I've seen over a thousand pitches and in my private life, I've seen over 5,000. and people tell you what they want often, you don't hear it. And you'll see me on Shark Tank say, so you want the investment, do you want anything else from me? And they'll say, yeah, yeah, I need marketing.

But I need access to you all the time because I need mentorship and everything else. And I may not have the time. You know, I may not have the time and I have to be honest. I'm sorry, I don't have the time. That's a really good interview question too, though. Okay, you want this job. given, what else do you want from this company? Like, you can probably learn a lot about an individual in an interview if you ask that question.

Yeah, I don't want to give away the whole book, but I think in there, I do share how when interviewing somebody, I say, do you have any questions? When they say no, they're not getting the job. Yeah. You're either not driven enough to be able to, you know, you don't care. So you're not going to be driven enough in the job. You're a liar because you know you have questions. You know, you know, you have questions and you're just lying to me right now, you can't communicate and articulate your thoughts properly. Either way, you're probably not getting the job if you don't have any questions. Now, could your questions be, I don't have any right now, but if I get the opportunity to have this job, I will come up with a couple before we consummated and I'll make sure that I

share my thoughts with you. No problem. You know? Yeah. And you don't have to have to answer all the time about everything. But you're critically thinking about what's coming next. Yeah, but let me ask something. Vice versa, even after people are employed, do you say to somebody and being their boss? So you've accomplished a lot around here. What are your goals? Because, you know, I like to say to business leaders, first of all, you need to know what your two to five words are that describe you. But second of all, have you asked your employees what their two to five words are? Because you may find out their version of success has nothing to do with your version of success. However, you may find out this person was passionate about philanthropy and other things. And you may say,

well, I didn't know that. First of all, have you ever talked to Grace over in this area? Because I know you're really good on social media with us and all the things we do. But, you know, our philanthropic efforts from not been really broadcasted in a powerful enough way, you want to shout at some of that? You know, again, you know, business and everything, I don't want to sit up here like some business guru, but I'm learning at the same time. And I put all that stuff in the book that I'm learning at the same time. It's very clear that you're a very passionate guy. You're a high energy person.

And it's interesting. I mean, I think you said 5,000 deals that you've been presented with over the course of time. Is that correct? Yes. So you never have a shortage of opportunities coming your way. Correct. And we see it all the time, maybe at a little bit smaller scale sometimes. but business owners, they get deviated by opportunities that are good, but they are not best.

And they end up chasing rabbits their entire life. And then they get to the end and they wonder why they're trapped by the thing that they built and there's no sense of focus. And they're just running on this treadmill. How do you stay so disciplined to make sure that you're choosing the right opportunities at the right time? By being an idiot earlier on in my life and chasing a bunch of rabbits. That's how I stay disciplined. You know, I know this real dumb guy on Shark Tank named Robert, but he does come up with some good sayings here and there. He said there's an old Russian saying that if you chase two rabbits, you're guaranteed to catch none.

And, you know, so I learned it exactly the way that you said it. But thank God I learned it early enough, you know, in life to say a truly successful person says no almost all the time. It says no almost all the time. So what has to be true for you to say yes? First of all, how does this fit into my time portfolio and how is it not a new venture? It complements something else that I have. How does this act business or whatever the case is reduce my time? Meaning how does it consolidate people, increase my sales or reduce my cost?

So it gives me less time that I have to work on something because I'm the only thing we can't get back. So that happens to be my portfolio. Other people's portfolios, people may say, how does this? diversify my portfolio. I'll give you example. When I went on a shark tank, like I said, I was looking for more deals. The reason I was looking for more deals is I want to maximize my time. And here's how I would maximize my time. I already had 10 clothing brands and eight of them were dead. And I was only getting pitched clothing brands. But if I go to Macy's and now I acquired a cosmetic line and I acquired some other brands, then I get to take up more real estate in Macy's.

I'm not only in the men's department, in apparel. I'm in the fragrance department. I'm in the home goods apartment. I'm in the kitchenware department. That means my one trip to Macy's, I sit with six buyers. They all know the relationship I have that they can count on me as a vendor of record and that I would give the take goods back, give them incentives, vice versa. That right there, instead of trying to sell them more clothing, which they didn't want and or go to new accounts, I would maximize my time. So my acquisitions would be things that would allow me to take a more real estate in the same thing. I'm making the same trip with the same vendor. And we have a relationship that I'm digging deeper into.

And again, that was my theory on going into Shark Tank. It changed, obviously. But I look at things in that perspective. You just seem to have this incredible capacity to reinvent yourself and constantly be learning and growing. What is your personal rhythm for learning and growth to make sure you're never plateauing and not stagnating? So first of all, I said it many times before, and I think I said in the book, I practice goal setting. I learned it from Napoleon Hill. So it becomes my compass and it keeps me straight.

And I read them every night before I go to bed and I read them every morning when I wake up. Six of them expire in six months. The other four expire in two years, five years, ten years, and 20 years. The ones expire in six months, I make them super big. So I never get to it. However, it's a compass. And when I reset it in six months, it's bigger. The reason I read them before I go to bed is because it programs my mind.

The 70% of the things you think about when you go to sleep or either something you feel. but either something you fear or you hope to happen. So that's why I'm reading them before I go to bed. The reason I wake up in the morning and read them again is one of the first actions I take. So if I take, make that call, that closer on this, you know, for this goal in six months, whatever, it's 180 calls towards it, right? If I get that green juice instead of that juicy old bacon and egg sandwich. One less bacon and egg sandwich in my body, one more green juice to oxidize my body. and of course praying and family and so anyway that's how I stay and I keep pushing my goals and

sometimes those six goals that I reset sometimes I reset only five of them and I say this one don't love it I'm not sure why or circumstances of change reset it totally slot it with something new but you have that rhythm of constantly moving forward every single day month year constant and then taking inventory again at the end of the year taking inventory taking inventory of friends, associates, family members. As much as I'm saying, dig back into your Rolodex. I also look sometimes into my Rolodex and say, this person did me wrong or did this and that.

I don't have no hard feelings, but this person wasn't a good friend to themselves. So they'll never be a good friend to me. I've got to cut them out of my life. I'm meeting more and more people, so I need room because I don't have time to meet more and more people. Your cut, your cut, your cut, your cut. Sometimes it's a cold way and sometimes it's a, listen,

I love you, man, or whatever. there's nothing here for us. It's a hard conversation to have. Final question. First of all, I'd love for people know where they can get the book and when they can get the book. And then I'd love to know from your perspective

what is one action that you hope people take as a result of today's conversation? Well, they can get the book on all the platforms, of course, right? Amazon and Barnes & Nobles and all the great places. And it's called Power Shift. And it's called Power Shift.

It's called power shifts, excuse me. And what are the actions that people can take immediately right now? It's taking inventory of themselves, asking themselves why. And it's not one action. Ask themselves why. Really understand the method that got them here and start to adjust and learn how to negotiate for the better things that they want. It doesn't even have to be trying to negotiate for a huge deal.

Go home and negotiate with your significant other on why you haven't gone on a vacation recently. If you're the one who wants to go on a vacation. That's right. Well, we appreciate your investment into our audience, and we cannot wait to see you at Entree Leadership Summit coming up very soon in Orlando. Thanks so much, Damon. Can have a good time. Thank you so much. One of the things that we talked about in that conversation that bears repeating is the fact that Damon's wisdom is so powerful because it comes from the trenches.

That guy is an entrepreneur at his core. And I think that one of the things that makes him successful is the fact that he is relentlessly focused on the things that matter most. This is a concept that we talk about and teach on a lot here at Entree leadership is that business owners that win focus on six core areas. We believe that those areas are your personal leadership, your purpose, your people, your plan for moving forward, your product and how you serve the marketplace, and finally your profit or the finances of the business. We know that businesses win when the leader is intentional about growing in these six areas. And that's why our team created a new assessment that's going to help

you see where you're at so you can create the plan for where you're going to go. So if you want to take this free assessment, just text the word progress to 33444. Again, that's the word progress to 33444, and our team will send you a link to the Entree Leadership Business Health Assessment. I hope you enjoyed this episode, the Entree Leadership podcast. If you did, please give us a five-star review and tell your friends to subscribe. For a chance to win a $25, Amazon Gift Card, you can review this episode. by clicking the length that's in the show notes.

And be sure to follow us on social media at Entree Leadership. This episode was produced by Tim Hull, and it was edited and mixed by Will Rudder. I'm Alex Judd, and on behalf of the entire Entree Leadership team, thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again very soon. If you enjoy this podcast, you should check out other great podcasts from the Ramsey Network,

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