EntreLeadership - #370: The Cost of Leadership with John Eldredge

Episode Date: April 13, 2020

If you think leadership is only about C-suite perks and privileges, bestselling author and counselor John Eldredge says you’re in for a serious wake-up call. Leadership is a higher calling, he says, and one that comes with a price tag to match. Luckily, simply acknowledging that fact goes a long way in boosting your resilience and preparing you for what lies ahead. Tune in as John shares an unfiltered look at leadership, as well as some everyday strategies to make the journey all the more worthwhile.   entreleadership.com/podcast Ransomed Heart website Get Your Life Back by John Eldredge 10 Days of Intentionality Review this episode for a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card   As an Amazon Associate EntreLeadership earns from qualifying purchases.   Want expert help with your business question? Call 844-944-1070 and leave a message or send an email to [e-mail]. You could be featured on a future podcast episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There's a great line that says that everybody wants to be a Matador until they are in the ring facing a 2,000 pound bull and they realize all they actually wanted was to wear a cool hat, tight pants, and wave a cape while the crowd roars. And this hits home a principle that absolutely applies to leadership. If you are going to do something, like really actually do something, you better make sure you first count the cost. From the Ramsey Network, this is the Entree Leadership Podcast, where we help business leaders grow themselves, their teams, and their profits. I'm your host, Alex Judd, and today we get to have a centering conversation with John Eldridge. John is a counselor, best-selling author, professional communicator, and today serves as the founder and president of Ransomed Heart Ministries. He's devoted his career to sharing useful strategies for staying healthy, whole, and stable. And as he will share, in the context of real leadership, the type of leadership that makes a difference, adds value, and changes lives, you must always start by counting the cost.

You have to be ready for it or it'll really take your legs out from under you. When the cost hits you, you will want to quit. Or you'll think that you have done something wrong because it's costly when the opposite's true. That's right. We see so often that business leaders get into one of these crisis situations and they think they're the only one. Yes. But in reality, what you're saying is if you count the cost, it's actually normal. Yeah, it is. Sadly, folks, hate to break that to you. That's right. But it is. Of course it is. And if we can be honest about that and assess the cost or at least say to ourselves, this will cost me and I'm okay with that. Then when it does it. come, you'll be more clear-headed to deal with it. Right. Because when the cost hits, all the other stuff rushes in. The fears, the doubts, the panic. That's right. Right. But if you go, no, no, I was told

that this was coming, then you're at least a little bit more stable, a little bit more clear-headed to go, okay, what do I do with this now? You're kind of setting expectations for yourself. Yeah, you do. You have to. Be realistic about the expectations. So when you think about that phrase, the cost of leadership. What is that? Just broadly, what does that actually mean? Well, we can just begin to name things. Let's start with loneliness, right? The leader is lonely. It's the nature of the job. Everybody that's in your particular realm works for you, reports to you. You are the one, right? That's right. Okay. And so that immediately changes all relationships. And that's a sacrifice. That is a cost. It is. You don't have peers.

Not there. Which, by the way, footnote, you better go find some. That's right. Get some peers outside of your shop. Whatever your shop is, you know, organization, church, nonprofit, whatever your shop is, get some peers, some other leaders that you can go be honest with. Because the other costs, so there's loneliness. And there is the pressure that you cannot be fully transparent with anyone. Yeah.

You can't. Yeah. It's not their responsibility to carry the weight of what you're doing. That's right. You have to carry it. And confidentiality is part of the job. Yes, it is. Right.

And so some of us like to process out loud. And I have to be careful of that when I'm in. And I have a leadership team and I have a great leadership team. Yeah. But even there, even in my leadership team, they should not be subject to my secret doubts. They should not be. You carry that.

That is your cross to bear. That is part of it. So I want to get into some of the nitty-gritty of this, but this, I mean, this can be a little bit of a grimy conversation. It's like we started off by just talking about, okay, here's all the negative things that are associated with this job that you signed up for. I hope you're ready for them. What is the glimmer of hope that makes this cost worth it?

Because you love it. You do it because you love it. And because you're making a difference. That's why we're willing to bleed on the battlefield, right? It's because we are bringing about change. We are bringing goodness to the world and what we're doing. We are, for having sakes, we're taking care of families and the people that we employ. We're bringing so much goodness into the world through what we're doing.

On so many multiple levels, it's worth it. It's worth it. And you do have to look in the mirror, by the way, on a regular basis in the morning and say, this is worth it. In fact, I'll give you a little personal. On my bathroom counter, Stacey and I have a little framed quote. Okay. The quote is from one of C.S. Louis's Narnia books. Oh, wow.

And it's the silver chair, and it's when they go through all kinds of privations and hardship and betrayal and danger and imprisonment. And they get to the end and it's successful. And here's the line that's sitting on our counter that I see every day and every night. their quest was worth all the pain it cost. Okay, that is fitting on my bathroom counter and I'll see it every morning. You see it every morning and every night. Why is that important for you to see that every day you wake up and right before you go to bed? Because the cost makes you want to either ratchet back, scale down, or at some point it makes you want to quit.

I mean, let's just be honest, right? You get to the point, you go, I don't know that I want to pay this cost anymore. And so to remind myself, wait a second, this is a much bigger story than the present moment. I do need to be reminded of that. That's right. Whatever the immediate crisis is, whatever the employee betrayal, whatever the scandal, whatever, maybe my own personal failure. It's just a moment in the story. This is just a moment in the story.

The bigger story is it's worth it. that phrase, it's worth it, kind of ties into the idea that you better believe in this thing that you're doing more than dollars and cents if you're going to actually persevere. Exactly. Kind of hits home the idea that you've got to have a purpose bigger than you. Yeah. Yeah, you do it because you love it. Or you do it because you love what it does for others.

Or you've got to have a love in there somewhere. Yeah. Right. So let's start with one that you pull out. What is a cost that you think regardless? of stage of business or size of business, every leader is going to have to deal with. The weight of responsibility. Okay.

Explain what that means. Well, it's on you, right? You started this thing or you run it now. If somebody else started it, and now it's on you. Your decisions, your fortitude, your wisdom, your creativity, your courage, your willingness to takes risks. This is all on you now. Yeah, that's ruthless.

I mean, we always talk about everything rises and falls on leadership, and we use that is a rally cry, but it's kind of like, no, everything rises and falls on leadership. Yeah. And it's a kindness, actually. The things we're saying are not discouraging. We're being kind. There's actually psychological research that shows that simply to name the truth of things reduces their emotional weight.

So just to, I get off a phone call and I go, whoa, that was a really hostile phone call. Just to say that it was hostile. Just to say it. God, that person was super hostile. reduces the emotional weight of it. So just to be able to say, if only to yourself, but hopefully to a confidon, a spouse, a mentor, to be able to say, this is really weighty, I'm carrying the responsibility of this outfit, is actually very kind to do because it names a truth and it begins to reduce some of the unspoken weight of it.

It's so funny because a lot of the people that we work with, it's like the reason why they got into business in the first place was they wanted the responsibility. They wanted to be an owner. Oh, yeah. And then it's sometimes three years in, five years in, maybe if they've got one heck of a willpower, they get 10 years in and they realize, holy cow, this whole responsibility thing is and all that it's cracked up to be. So how do you start to deal with that in a responsible way and make sure that you're carrying the responsibility in a manner that's healthy for you as a leader? Yeah. So Roosevelt would go outside. Okay. This is FDR Teddy. This is Teddy.

Okay. I kind of like him a little better. Yeah, a little better. Teddy would go outside and he would look up at the stars and he would remember how big the universe is. And he would say something like this. And now we know that we are small and we can go to bed. There's just a sense of perspective. There's just a sense of, I know it feels like the weight of the world is on your shoulder. right now, but you're actually living in a much bigger story that's bigger than your life, that's bigger than your company or nonprofit or whatever. It's much bigger than you, and it actually doesn't finally rest on you. If you have any belief in someone out there

who is carrying all things, someone who is kind, then you can let it go. And you are actually going to need to let it go. Again, there's just tons of research on this. You have to have a point in your day and in your week where you let it all go. What does that practically look like to let it go? So we were not sleeping well because of, you know, Stacey and I lead an organization of 19 employees and we have a global outreach and it's, you know. It's a lot of responsibility. It's a lot of responsibility.

Most of my decisions feel very weighty because they're either affecting the lives of my employees or they're affecting huge impacts somewhere in the world that we're doing. At bedtime, we realized, in order to sleep tonight, I have to let this go. And so we just say in our bedtime prayer is God, I give all this to you. I give everyone and everything to you. I just name it out loud. And then sometimes I have to get very specific, that email I shouldn't have sent, right? Yeah.

That person that I want to completely ream right now. That's right. And I can't do it. I can't do it. A good leader wouldn't do that right now. Like, I give it to you. I just got to release it right now. I can't carry this stuff. Learning actually to detach is a wonderful maturity that most people have not been told is okay. That's right. It's okay to detach. That's right. Okay. So when you say detach, is that the process of letting go? Or what do you mean by that word detachment? Well, you can feel it happening. You're beginning to disentangle yourself from the drama. Okay. So I know, and I've been this person before, I will try so freaking hard to let something go. And it's like in the process of trying so hard, it's like I'm tightening my grip. I just want to dag nab it. I want to freaking let it go. And we see people struggle with this. They're like, I'm trying. I'm trying to let it go. What would your advice be to that person? Oh, yeah. Oh, well, that doesn't work. You can't force this. I'm not talking about a process you can force. If you're having a hard time letting it go, then you ask yourself why. What does this mean? to you. Name it out loud. Again, say it out loud because if I don't handle this employee well,

people won't think well of me. Oh, so now this is actually about what people think of you. You're getting to the source. Yeah. Get down to the source of it, right? There's the emotion or the drama or the trauma, and then there's what's behind it. Get to what's behind it. And then you'll go, oh, that's why I can't let it go because I feel guilty. Or that's why I can't let it go because I feel afraid, right? And now you're down in the goods. That's right. That's right. That's where it's happening here. I would imagine you have coincided with a lot of people in your work that have buckled or been crippled by the weight of responsibility. Yes, too many. What is the common thread between those people? They don't take care of their soul. They don't take care of their soul.

Okay, the word soul is not a word that we use on this podcast a ton. It's this weird thing. Like, we all know there's a soul, we all agree with it, and I couldn't tell you what it is. It's the source of your happiness. It's the source of your joy. It's the source of your interests, all your hobbies, all the particular things you like to read, watch, eat, drink, do, not do. That's your soul expressing itself. What you do in your free time, what you do on vacation, why you choose the places to vacation that you do. That's all an expression of your soul. You're not just a physical being, right? You're a creative, courageous, thoughtful, introspective, passionate being.

That's your soul. The thing is, the pace of life right now is absolutely insane. That's right. And it doesn't allow people to care for their soul. So all the famous blowups, all the celebrity scandals, all the entertainers, all, you know, the politicians. Oh, my goodness, I just heard the tragedy there, the political suicides in Europe. High-level leaders taking their lives. Well, they're buckling under real pressure.

Yeah. And it's because they're not taking care of their soul. And what do I mean by that? I mean, when do you rest? Do you take a day off? You have to take a day off. Is it Saturday? Is it Sunday?

Is it Tuesday? You have to take a day off, gang. The human being is not designed to work seven days a week. So you're literally saying not just a day off in the span of a year. You're saying a day off in the span of a week. Weekly. You take a day off weekly. Absolutely. In fact, the Bolsheviks, after the revolution in Russia, they tried to get rid of, quote, Sabbath, and they tried to have workers go a 13-day week and then rest, and it was massive sickness. Really? Yeah, people, because the human body breaks down with that. Isn't that fascinating? Exactly.

So some people I feel like, and I've certainly fallen prey to this, I think to myself, well, I'll take a couple hours here, I'll watch TV after work. I'll go to the gym and that's kind of relaxing. And I spreaded that day across an entire week, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're talking about. It's not the same thing. Now, you do need to do things every day. For me, it's my 20-minute walk. I get home at night and I just have to tell myself, whatever the weather is, however late it is, I know it's dark now, I must take my walk because it cares for my soul, because I seem to be able to let things go as I'm walking. And I'm a better person. I'm a better husband when I come back from that. Okay, so you've got to have you daily. But here's another secret to leadership, though, on why you are choosing to rest, because what you require of yourself, you will require of everyone else.

Oh, that's so good, John. This is really a secret here of humanity. The way you treat your own humanity is the way you will treat everyone else's. And you can say, oh, no, no, that's not true. You know, I'm ruthless on myself, but I'm very kind towards everyone else's. else, but they pick it up. The thing is they see the model. They see the example that you're setting. And they, and I'm a driven guy. And I am a perfectionist. And it began to really harm the people around me because I didn't realize that I was putting all those expectations on them. I have one pace.

Yes. And my pace is fast. That's just it. And so if people are going to work with you, the expectation that they feel whether you've stated it or not is John moves fast, so I move fast. I made the whole pace of the organization fast. So let me tell you what we did. So at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock every day in our building, monastery bells ring out. Just a little chime over the... This actually happens. Yes, every day now. Everybody knows 60 seconds, everybody stops. It's a reset twice a day. We'd literally take the one-minute pause. Wow. Just for 60 seconds. 60 seconds. It's all it takes to stop the frenetic. You really do reset. You go, oh, wow, I was already, it's only 10 in the morning. I'm already spun up.

Yeah. Right? I'm already in chaotic. That's right. 60 seconds. It's a reset. It's a pause. It's a stop. And it was a way of communicating to my culture. We're not going to run like that anymore. I know I created a culture of go, go, go, go, go, go, go. But we're going to correct some things. things now because I want my, I want my employees flourishing. That's right. And you're kind of waging war against reactivity in that way. Yeah, you really are. Yeah. And there's brain research to show that if you just pause, when you come back, you have greater clarity and focus. 60 seconds. It's amazing. This isn't hard. Everybody can do this. That's right. You already hit on this sum. One of the costs of leadership that I was thinking about in preparing for this conversation is that it's a

that is maybe, maybe everyone faces it, but maybe it's a little bit even more unique to the leader in that there's the temptation to appear perfect. There's the temptation to portray the image of perfection. Where does that come from and how does the leader deal with that? Well, again, let's come in through the door of what we just talked about. The way you treat your humanity is the way you'll treat everyone else's. If you feel, for whatever reasons, and it may have to do with a perfectionist parent, it may have to do with the industry that you're working in. If you're in the fashion industry, your image is everything. That's right. Okay. So that's okay.

But here's the thing. If you say, well, I've got to be perfect, then you're telling you're telling you. every one of your employees, they have to be perfect too. And that will create a culture that will kill the organization. Because, again, human beings can't do that. So if you will, I've been amazed at this as a leader. Once in a while, in, you know, team meetings or updates or whatever, I will be vulnerable. I will share something vulnerable.

Hey, I had a really hard night last night, bad phone call about my mom's health or something like that. They love it. Really? The staff loves to see the leader vulnerable. Why is that? Why do we love that? Why do we respond to that? Because I agree with you.

I felt the exact same thing happened to me when someone here says, hey, I screwed this up or I'm facing this right now. One of our board members did it the other day from stage. He just came up and said, hey, I'm going through a really tough season right now. And there's some stuff going on at home that I'm really, really challenged by. And it's good just to remember why we're doing this and why we get out of bed every day. And I'll tell you almost instantly I trusted that person more. So what is happening inside me that makes me trust him more in that moment? Yeah, because you realize they're human.

And it's the humanity of people that causes us to love them, right? We don't love robots. We love people. Yeah. Right? And we don't love machines. We love people. And so when people get to be human again and act human again, your trust factor goes up.

it also takes the pressure off of me. Part of the reason that you love them, actually, the reaction that you're having is, oh, thank God, I get to be human too. You're giving me permission. Exactly. Yeah. I think we can all hear that. And at the same time, we still have this urge. I want to appear. Excellent, though. I want to appear. I want to portray this image. So how do you confront that or what is that inside of this? Okay, Gag. Let's be honest. everybody, let's be honest about why we are leaders or want to be leaders. We want to be loved and we want to be admired. And that's okay. Those are very human needs.

Everybody has the need to be loved. Everybody has the need to be admired. But if you're not honest about how much that is fueling your decisions, you won't be a good leader. Because there are people that need confronting and you're not confronting them because you want to be loved and admired. That's right. Right? Oh, man, you are staring us dead in the eyes right now, John.

Yeah. And then there's progress goals and, you know, thresholds that we're trying to get to and we're pushing ourselves and the company to get there because we want to be loved and admired. And there's probably better angels of your nature that are calling you to a higher purpose as well, but we'd be foolish not to recognize.

Yes, if you'll be honest about your motives, you'll be a better leader. And so that's why we strive for perfectionism because we want to be loved. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and admired. Yeah, we want people to think we're amazing. And it's okay to admit that. That's right.

Let's admit that, right. Okay, so you admit it, and then what do you do with that? Well, I choose for that not to be the motive by which I'm making this decision or by which I'm living this week. or, you know, I go, okay, well, there it is again. I want to be loved and I want to be amazing. But that's not really why I'm doing this. Yeah. I'm doing this because I care about it.

I'm doing this because I believe in it. I reset. It's just, you've got to be honest about your motives, gang. That's so good. How does a person accurately assess their motives? Well, fear is a good one. When fear is presenting itself, you ask, why? Anger is another.

Yeah. Anger is really helpful. Don't just immediately say, oh, I shouldn't do that. I shouldn't be angry. No, no, no. Ask yourself, why are you angry? Why are you angry? What's behind that?

There is a phrase that's become almost comical in our shop. And it goes like this. What's that about? What's that about? And we will let each other ask that question. The anger shows up and somebody goes, whoa, what's that about? Because you're looking behind it. You're looking behind it.

You go, well, I'm angry because you don't think I'm amazing right now. Right? Forces them to be introspective whenever you ask that question. It's really helpful. It's really helpful. And we talked about the famous blowups and burnouts and people. Those people are not introspective. I'll guarantee you, every single one of them.

Is that right? They don't take the time. No. They live on the surface of life and they are not paying attention to their inner world. And then their inner world is going to come back and bite you in an addiction. in an affair in something, you can't ignore your inner world. You can't evade it. You can't.

One of the other costs that we see all the time people struggle with is that the bigger the organization gets, the bigger problems that exist in the organization. And the harder the decision, the more likely it is to be put on the leader's desk. Yeah. Right. And so you get to this spot where it's like every decision that you're having to make, it seems like, is just really, really difficult. and you're faced with this analysis paralysis, and you know that there are high stakes to every decision that you make that are going to impact people's lives. And that's the cost of doing business. How do you deal with that decision-making power to make sure that you have the

wisdom and discernment to decide correctly? Will, two things. Wisdom comes from humility. And so you want to make sure that that you are taking a humble posture towards these things. Arrogance, pride, hot-headedness, hot-headedness will not help you make good decisions. It just doesn't. It gets in the way every single time, right? But also, I hope that you are not making those decisions entirely alone.

That's right. Right? Either on a human level or on spiritual level. I hope that there is someone you are turning to, right? And that you, I think that, I mean, I'll just put my cards on the table. If you were to come into the way decisions are made in our organization at a high level, you would see a lot of prayer. Is that right? Yep.

It's humility. Why is that so necessary for you? Because I am not that smart. I'm just not that smart. And there's so many variables and timing and scalability and all. I mean, there's just too many variables in any decision. Humility says, I need help. So I pray.

If you have those big decisions and you know you need to make them and you want to have people that are in the boat with you, but you struggle to trust people, how do you deal with that? There's a reason you don't trust people. Most people are not trustworthy. Is that you feel that way? Oh, let's just be honest. Come on. I love your honesty, John. Call it like it is.

The human race is profoundly broken. People are very messed up, starting from their childhoods. And so you're not wrong to feel like there are very few people you can trust. That's not a paranoid view of the universe. That's a realistic one. But you do need to cultivate a couple people you can trust. And I mean, I hope that your leadership model is not. empirical or emperor, right? That you better have a leadership team that gets to speak into your

life. It's absolutely critical. And one of the questions, we're, you know, I'm able to connect a lot of the dots in this conversation. One of the questions I will ask my leadership team on a regular basis is, how is the culture doing? How's our culture? How's our corporate culture? Because I know I set the corporate culture without being aware of it. Pace of life, demands, perfectionism, kind of thing. So the things that are wrong with it means you're probably not going to see him as easily as they can. Yeah, it's my blind spot, of course. Exactly. It's my blind spot. Or risks I'm not willing to take or not aware of. You see what I'm saying. So I've got a leadership team that has permission to speak into my life and permission to speak into the culture and say, hey, we're not healthy right now and here's

why, right? Well, also, I need that leadership team's help in most of my decision making. Now, some final, final, final decisions. You know, the maxim is, there are many opinions in one vote. Right? There are many opinions in one vote in the leadership team.

Eventually it does come down to me. And I will ask everyone's opinion, and I will save mine for last, by the way, I never go first because then I've already shut the conversation down. Go last. Always go last. And ask, what do you think?

What do you think? What do you think we ought to do? Go around the table. Get the input. Assess it honestly. And then share what you personally think last. Right. So that people feel permission to speak. And then you, at least you're not making the decision alone. The thing that you highlighted there that I think is really good, you are informed, you're being wise, you're being humble. But you are making the decision. And I've been part of organizations before where decision by committee, is the norm. And what you realize is that it's really not a courageous or democratic thing. It's essentially no one wants to take full responsibility for this. So we're just going to call it the committee's decision. Yeah, yeah. That's cowardice. That's BS. You can run a health food store like that. I mean, you can't run much else. Hey, there's some people that listen to this that run the health stores, John. Actually, I used to work in one and love them very much. I'm a very crunchy

eater. But you know what I'm saying? That sort of co-op, laid back. And we think we're being a good person when we do it. Yes. But it's actually evading responsibility. There are many opinions and one vote. Okay. You take in all opinions, but ultimately you do need to lead. And you know what? I'm trying to figure out what is it that we're tiptoeing around here. And I think I can name it now. Oh, good. If you are not prepared for colossal failure, you probably shouldn't be leading. Okay, you're going to have to go into that stuff. Well, because what's the paralysis?

What's the perfectionism? You know, what is it that we are so deeply trying to avoid? And I think at some level of failure, right? We are scared of some level of failure. Terrified. Right? But, gang, like, you won't be a good leader if you are not, capable as a human being of not being devastated by failure.

You have to be an intact human being. That failure is not the verdict on you. It's not the verdict on your place in the universe. It's not even the verdict on your leadership. That maturity will free you then to not be paralyzed by things, by employee crises, by betrayals, by scale. bandles by bad press, but you just go, we can handle this, we can weather this, we can weather this because I'm not ultimately terrified of some kind of failure.

Right? It's not going to take me out. You're going to be okay. Gosh. What are practical disciplines that leaders can engage in to build that muscle so that the fear of failure isn't driving their leadership? Yeah, fail small. Oh, that's good.

fail small. Just start with some small things that you just, you know, let yourself make bad decisions on small matters, right? And realize that, huh, the world didn't fall apart. And it's kind of just like actually make some decisions because in the process of making decisions, you'll make some bad ones. You'll make some bad ones. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's okay. Try some things. Take some rest. Do some new things on a small scale. But what you're saying, though, is you have to be willing to own that it was a failure. Yeah. And that it isn't about you. Okay, that's another thing that we've kind of maybe been circling around a little bit that I wasn't thinking about before this conversation, but maybe it's a temptation for the leader more than other people to root their identity and their work. Maybe. That's right. Okay. Okay, so teach us on this a little bit.

100% of the time, we enmesh our identity and value, our self-worth, our self-worth, is tied up in our role 100% of the time. You've got to begin to disentangle that. You really do. And so again, first to name it. Yeah. Be honest about it, right? This is really cool.

I had someone show up to one of our mastermind calls the other day. It was a business owner. I think they had a team of like 25 people. And they had just experienced a pretty big blow. And they started the conversation by saying, I think I'm in a really bad spot right now because I'm equating our success in this area to my personal identity. There you go.

They named it. Yeah, there you go. It's beautiful. That's the first step. It's very, very powerful. Get out a piece of paper when you have an hour of clear time. So this is probably on your weekend. Okay.

Get out a piece of paper and fill in the blanks. I am loved when. Just start answering that for yourself. I am loved when I perform. I love when other people are doing it. You'll be amazed what comes out on this piece of paper. It will be very, very revealing to you. I am loved when and I am a success when.

I am loved and I am successful when. And then let yourself look at that and see how fragile that is. I'm loved when people like me. Gadzukes. Like you... I'm screwed. Yeah, that's just not going to happen every day, you know? Like, that's a role of the dice.

So you have to have your identity and your selfhood and your value rooted in God. You have to. in something stable, in something unchanging, and not the climate of the world. It seems like a lot of times we are confronted by the reality that our identity is enmeshed with our work whenever we hit a rock bottom moment or a really tough problem or issue. Is there a way that we can do preventative care? And maybe it's some of the things you've already talked about, but how can we make sure we're accurately evaluating and assessing how we're doing in this area,

before that rock bottom moment comes. Yeah, and I do want to say all those rock bottom, I will answer that, but I want to say all those rock bottom moments are gifts. They're absolute gifts because it is in the weeds that you really do, this stuff really does come out. Okay. You didn't realize how much your worth was tied up in that project or how much you wanted people to like you until it happens.

That's the value of the weeds. Yeah, it is. It is. Okay. So those things are, you know, do the good work down there, right? But preventative. I would say on a regular basis, you should ask yourself the question, can I walk away from this tomorrow? Can I walk away from this tomorrow and be well?

Because if you can't, you're enmeshed. If you can't, you're already tied up in this thing. So you've got to disentangle again to get your soul to the place that you can say, you know what, I could. I'd be sad. I'd be disappointed. I'd miss my work. But no, I could do that. I could walk away tomorrow. I'm okay with that. Is that where you're at right now with your business? Yes. Yes. But it took work to get there. So there were moments in the past where you would not have been able to answer yes to that question? Oh, moments in the last six months. Is that right? Yeah. And that highlights the fact, too, that this is an ever-changing and ongoing battle. Of course it is. Yeah, we're human beings, right? We keep reforming these unhealthy attachments and we keep reattaching our value to things that, you know, your looks, your physique, your health.

We keep attaching it to things that are fragile, actually, very fragile. So, yeah, this was a fascinating thing I was actually coming back from. I took a little bit of a sabbatical last year because I was pretty fried. Yeah. And where'd you go? We went to Ireland. Oh, amazing. Oh, it was wonderful.

That sounds incredible. Yeah, Stacey and I had the best time. Lots of time outside. Well, the thing is, lots of time doing nothing. This is really important. You talked to our team about this this morning. You need to do nothing. And so naps, walks, reading, scrabble, like simple.

It wasn't go, go, go. Because you can't, if you vacation at the pace that you work, it's not vacation. John, you're accusing me right now. What the heck? Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm an adrenaline junkie. Much less vacation faster than you work. These are all lessons hard learned by mistake. Yes. But was that trip to Ireland disentangling for you?

It was massively disentangling. Part of it was we realized we actually had to get out of the country in order to disentangle from our organization. We're just too available, you know. And there's something psychologically about, I am out of the country, I'm unavailable, that worked. It worked for us, and we really were able to rest. But as we were coming back, I was doing some prayerful reflection. And I was a little bit apprehensive, to be honest, about coming back. And I prayed, and here's what I heard. I heard that this is not your life, the company that I work in, ransomed art, that I formed, that I built, that I'm the president of. Here's what I heard.

This is not your life. This is where you serve. And I'm like, no, it's not. This is my life. I have made it. You pushed against it. Oh, I was exposed immediately. I'm like.

Honestly, that's so good for me to hear that Pastor John Eldridge heard that this is where you serve. You're like, no, this is my life. Yeah. Oh, I've made this my life. Yeah. I have made this my life. It was fairly shocking to realize, of course that's true. This isn't my life.

My life is my life. This is where I serve. And so now that is taped to my death. ask. This is where I serve. That word serve. There is so much richness in that word with regard to how it reframes the way we view our work. And we have people on every piece of the faith spectrum that listen to this podcast. And we're super grateful for that. And we never want to press our faith on anyone. We are clear about what we believe, but we're never going to tell them they have to believe that as well to be a part of this community and we're super grateful that they listen. With that context in mind,

why is it so important that we as human beings have something to serve? Your soul is a beautiful thing, but it's actually very small. And when you try and make your story the story, it will all crush in on you. It's just not big enough. It's why we love going to movies. Why do people love movies? Right? It's a global, phenomenon. People love stories. People love novels. You get swept away. You get swept away because you get called into something that is bigger than you. Right? You see a bigger story. Somebody else's story. Right. And so it's really critical. The whole serve thing is coming out of the mindset that I am not the center of the universe. I am a participant in the human drama, but I'm actually not

the center of it. It's embarrassing how often I have to remind myself like that, you know, because my little dramas begin to feel like the drama. There is no other story. Everything revolves around this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it also has to do with things we were talking about earlier about, that your identity, your security, your selfhood are rooted in something other than your work. And then you're able to serve there, right?

But if you've attached all that stuff to your work, oh, man, then you are demanding that your work provide for you. identity, security, love, affirmation, validation of your existence. Yeah. That's so powerful. And I love that idea of being a part of a story that is bigger than you. Yeah, exactly. You are not the story.

We long for that. We dreamed about it as kids, right? It's why we love fairy tales and all those stories we loved as kids because we got to imagine being. This is the Star Wars phenomenon, by the way. Yeah, that's true. The whole Star Wars is not an extraordinary piece of literature. Okay, it's not. Now, I adore it so I can say that, and I'm in all of it, all right? But it's not. What is it? Oh, it is because we get to imagine being part of something really big. Okay, so talk to the owner of the HVAC shop that's like, I've got 15 team members. We're just fiction people. air conditioning's, this doesn't feel like something big. This doesn't feel like something massive

that is contributing to the universe. What would you say to that person? Begin to look at what would happen if you shut everything down tomorrow. First off, those 15 families would be out of work. And that's significant. So you actually are providing a great deal of good right there, right? And then you think of the services that you're providing for your customers and they would be out of that, you know? And now, yeah, that's the, they could go find someone else, but they couldn't find you in the way you do it, right? And then you look at your own family and you look at your own world and you go, wow, if I shut all this down, what would happen to us? And you begin to see, there's a lot of goodness that's attached

to this HVAC shop. There's a lot of important things. And then you've got to bring in the human touch because it isn't just that you go in and you fix somebody's furnace. It's the interactions that you have with them. It's the way that you honor their humanity. It's the compassion with which you listen to their story, the human interactions, right? You probably should go watch It's a Wonderful Life again. That's right. That's right. That's so good. It would probably do you good.

Yeah, no kidding. Just to remember and to reconnect to the fact that the value of serving one life is really, really important. But what's so cool about this is it's kind of this dichotomy is that doesn't make you the universe, but it is no love. that's very, very important to you participating in this story. You have a part to play? How awesome is that? We get to be part of a really big story. It's awesome.

If you're in a counseling session with a leader and you're having these discussions with them and they start to look at this mountain of cost and they just start to say, I don't know, I don't know if I want to do this. I haven't really thought through the cost of leadership as clearly as we've discussed it today. What do you tell that person? Well, first off, I give permission to say, that's okay. Maybe you should quit. Because if you don't have permission to make other moves, if you don't have permission, you're going to be deeply bound. eventually. You're going to resent it, actually. You'll end up resenting the people that work for you or your customers. You'll end up resenting the whole thing. So you have to have permission. We see people all the time that I've heard someone use the phrase, I feel trapped by the thing I created. Exactly. Yeah. You don't want to build a house. You don't want to live in, by the way. So you have to have permission to leave. Go do something else. You have to have that permission. But then, having sort of established that we have permission,

The other thing I want to say is, really, where is a life without cost? What exactly do you think it is you're going to go do that doesn't have cost to it? Gosh, yes. Right? That's right. But so much of the discourse today is go do what your feelings tell you to do. Go do what makes you happy. Go do what's convenient.

But what you're saying is that the value actually comes from the cost. It really does. It's like marriage. It's like being a parent. It's like being a friend. It's like anything in life. It's where do you think you can go that doesn't have cost attached to it? And that just helps the leader go, oh, yeah, right.

I guess the fact that this has cost doesn't make it bad or even unique. And I think that recinters us. And it's kind of how we start. started to. The cost is not this thing we want to avoid. The cost is just part of it. Yeah. And that kind of comes to this idea that leadership is not a destination, too. Yeah. Well, and I think, honestly, I think it adds to the thrill of it. The thrill of mountain biking is not that you're biking through marshmallows. Right? That's right. The thrill of mountain biking is you're biking through the mountains.

That's right. Yeah, that's the point. And you could fall. Exactly. The thrill of surfing is not that you're in six-inch, you know, waves. It's the thrill of anything, the thrill of relationship. It's why you don't stay on the bunny hill whenever you're skiing. Look at the thrill of relationship. Oh. Right? Yeah.

You know that the cause, you're going to get hurt, but we love it. Right? That's right. I would say this, because when the story of your life is told, you want a really good story told. that's why when the story of your life is told you want a really good story told and part of that is he was willing to bear the cost she was willing to bear the cost of loving living leading trying risking building they were willing to do that that's a good story we don't need another question if that's a killer way to end it john personally i'm thankful for the way you've

impacted my life but i'm also beyond grateful for your investment into our audience today for playing all out, for telling us like it is, and for bringing so much truth to this conversation. So thanks so much, John. You're welcome. It's been a joy. John made a pretty compelling case that there absolutely is a cost of leadership. And I know for a fact, because we talk to you, small business owners, every single day, that many of you around our country right now are staring that cost dead in the eyes. And what I want you to know is that the decisions that you are making and the actions that you are taking, we know that they are tough. We know that they are challenging, but that doesn't mean that they are wrong.

Keep doing the right thing. Keep serving people. Keep moving forward and keep leading your team exceptionally well because now more than ever, the world absolutely needs leadership. If you thought that conversation was relevant and powerful, John's newest book is just the same. It's called Get Your Life Back, Everyday Practices for a World Gone Mad. That sounds just a little bit relevant right now, doesn't it? So if you want to get that book, we've put the link to John's newest book in the show notes. And hey, I want to make sure you're aware of a free resource that we make available to business owners.

It's called the 10 Days of Intentionality. We're committed that in this season, we don't want you to stop growing or moving forward. We want you to constantly be applying yourself to lifting your leadership lid so that your organization doesn't become stagnant. So in this PDF, we lay out 10 specific actions you can take every single day to make sure that you are constantly moving forward and constantly growing. So if you want to get the 10 days of intentionality PDF, just text the word, get intentional. to 33444. Again, that's the word get intentional, all one word, nose faces to 33444 or just click the length that's in the show notes. I hope you enjoyed this episode, the Entree Leadership podcast. If you did,

please give us a five-star review and tell your friends to subscribe. For a chance to win a $25, Amazon gift card, you can review this episode by clicking the length that's in the show notes. And be sure to follow us on social media at Entree Leadership. This episode is produced by Tim Hull, and it was edited and mixed by Will Rudder. I'm Alex Judd and on behalf of the entire Entree Leadership team. Thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again very soon. If you enjoy this podcast, you should check out other great podcasts from the Ramsey Network,

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