EntreLeadership - #87: Liz Wiseman—Why You Need to Get Rookie Smarts

Episode Date: December 29, 2014

Remember when you first started your company and you didn't know enough to be afraid? You were unstoppable—full of wonder and curiosity. In our newest podcast, best-selling author Liz Wiseman tells us how to recapture that feeling and once again become unstoppable. http://www.entreleadership.com/podcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Charismatic, passionate, as integrity, humble, servant, faithful, inspiring, persevering, positive, flexible, driven. This is who we are that call ourselves leaders. Helping business leaders grow themselves, their team, and their profits. This is the Entree Leadership podcast. Now, here is your host, Ken Coleman. Coming to you from the Music City, this is the podcast of leaders by leaders. And four leaders coming up. Our feature conversation is with Liz Wiseman.

She's the author of a new book entitled Rookie Smart's While Learning Beats Knowing in the new game of work. But first, really excited. Joining me in studio back with us again. You know him, you love him. Chris Hogan. How are you, my friend? I'm doing fantastic, Ken. Thanks for having me, my friend.

Golly, it's good to have you here. You've been all over the place. Our event season has wound down, if we can say that, until the first of the year. year. Talk about being out there with these entree leaders speaking to them all across the country. Oh, it's been a blast. I mean, anytime you can go out there and get with the people that are in the trenches that are out there trying to make things work, trying to build their teams and build their business, it's fun. And I love being around passionate people. So we've had a blast and excited about what's coming in 2015. Oh, yeah, so stay tuned. Now, I'm really excited about this conversation. You and I have

done a ton of interviews. We can't even count how many we've done between the two. of us. And you listen to this conversation with Liz Wiseman, which is coming up, but I wanted you in studio because you have a unique take on it. When we're talking about this idea of getting back to being a rookie and why those elements

of being a rookie can help us as leaders, I wanted you to talk from your perspective. You were a rookie one time in maybe the most competitive venue in all of life, and that would be football or just sports in general. Take us back to those days. Some of the emotions, some of the realities.

that maybe we need to reinvigorate ourselves with. What was it like to be a rookie in college football? Well, I tell you, you know, when you leave out of high school, you're the big doll. Okay? And so then you leave there and then you go to college and there are much bigger dolls. Everybody was the big dog. That's interesting. And so in your mind, what you're doing is literally you are battling to prove what you're about.

and it's intensity where you're trying to learn, but you're learning on the go. You don't have time to sit back. And I was thinking about this, and I thought, you know what? I had an absolute fear of failure. What I mean by that is failure was not an option. I'd come too far. I'd had too much success as a team, so now it was a matter of me proving myself again. So then that brings me to my second point.

I had a power of purpose. my purpose was to prove that I was worthy of being there and that I was able to stay there because that's where my mind wanted me to be. And how did that give you an edge? It gave me an edge because I think the veterans that were there respected me. I didn't come in talking a lot.

I didn't talk much at all. I worked hard. And so by that they saw in my work ethic that I wasn't someone that just got there on a whim. I actually got there based on some talent from coaches teaching me. And so I think being respectful of them, of the leaders and the veterans that were on the team, but I think as a freshman coming in, that's how I got on the field. Do you think that it is easier to be hungry as a rookie than it is as a veteran?

Yes, I do. I think as a rookie, what you're trying to do is that you're proving that you belong and that you can do the job. As a veteran, I think the danger is there's a sense of entitlement that comes. Because you think I've been here three years. I deserve. And I think that's a dangerous mindset because deserve will get you right where you don't want to go. And that's backsliding because that's when other people passed you. And so, no, so I love that.

So as you look at this for me as a rookie, the fear of failure definitely was a positive motivator, the power of purpose because I knew what I was about and where I was going. And then the third is the most important. And that's refusing to retreat. Oh, I like that. I was not going backwards. I got on that field and they were going to put me back out there, not because of my mouth, but because of my effort and my commitment to my team.

I love that. This is so good. Chris thinks it's good to be a rookie, and that's what we're going to be talking about here with Liz, this idea of recapturing the positives, all the things are going to be in a rookie, and then how do we translate that into keeping us fresh in the purposeful work that we're called to do? The book is Rookie Smart's, Why Learning Beats Knowing in the New Game of Work, listen in to my conversation with Liz Wiseman.

Well, Liz, I got to tell you, I love the name of the book, Rookie Smart. When it came across my desk, I immediately said, this is intriguing. The subtitle why learning beats knowing in the new game of work is equally provocative here. And so I want to ask you to start off with sharing with our listeners. Why did you dive into this topic, this idea of being a rookie is the way to go? How did you get into this idea for a book? You know, the book was really part of my post-Oracle therapy. You know, almost 17 years I never once had a job I was qualified for.

You know, every job was a stretch, was a reach. But by the time I got to about 40 years old, and, you know, then went through my professional career, I started to know what I was doing. And I actually left Oracle because some of the thrill of the work was gone. And after I left Oracle, I left with this kind of, lingering question, you know, how does what we know get in the way of what we don't know and what we need to learn? And it was just the sense that perhaps now all of my experience and my knowledge might be a

liability. And it really was this lingering question I had that eventually my publisher was, you know, the one who said, Liz, that is what you need to go in research. And so I spent a couple years researching, you know, when is being inexperienced, actually an advantage? and why is it as advantage right now in this current work environment. So let's talk about some of that research, because that's what I love so much about this book. This isn't Liz's theories here.

This is tested research. What did you find out that maybe surprised you that you think we need to know? Well, you know, we often think of rookies as liabilities. And when I mean rookie, I don't mean someone who's young. I mean, you know, someone who is doing something important and hard, but doing it for the very first time. We often think of these first timers as, you know, bumbling, clueless kind of clods, the people that sort of make mistakes and hold everyone up. And what I found when I dug into this is that when we are new to something,

it actually prompts our very best thinking and our best work. And it's the size of the gap because we face this big knowledge gap or big skill gap, we're forced to do a number of things. First, we have to kind of open our eyes and look around. We actually aren't bumbling. We find that people operate in these heightened states of awareness. We ask good questions. We seek out the expertise of others.

We found actually that when you ask someone who doesn't know how to do a job to do something, they seek out five times the level of expertise than an expert does. So they actually bring more expertise and more resources to bear on a problem. They're cautious, they experiment, but they move really, really fast. And we found that in the realm of knowledge work, particularly in work that's innovative in nature, that people without experience, rookies tend to outperform people with experience. This is fascinating. I mean, this really is because this idea, you said this earlier,

and I want to make sure our listeners caught it. That when we talk about rookies here, this whole conversation, you don't have to be a newbie per se. It's capturing what it was like and remembering what it is like for all of us when we take on rookie status. I want to read something that came across my desk, Liz, and I want to set it up for you to talk to us here

on a specific challenge. Here's what it came across my desk when I saw the publicity materials. It says this book argues that the most successful rookies are hunter-gatherers, alert and sinking, cautious but quick like firewalkers, and hungry and relentless like pioneers. And you identified leaders who you refer to as perpetual rookies. Now, I set that up on purpose list because in a minute we're going to talk about firewallies, so I don't want you to talk about that right now. What I want you to do is it's like a halt in our conversation. And for those who are listening, they're going, I remember what it was like to

be a rookie. I remember the times of my life where I jumped in and I had absolutely zero experience and I just had to swim. For those who have forgotten that sensation, who aren't leading and living in those moments anymore and they're kind of stale and stuck, before we go any further, how do we reset to rookie status? Well, you know, Ken, I think you hit on one of the issues is, you know, to remember what it was like to be a rookie. And, you know, I think you hit, you hit on, one of the issues is, you know, you know, to remember what it was like to be a rookie. And, you know, if maybe I could ask everyone listening to maybe put yourself in kind of a virtual teleporter, we all remember the teleporter from the Star Trek series, is to teleport yourself back in place and time.

So when you were doing something important and hard, and you're doing it for the very first time, you know, and you might take a moment and remember what it was like. What did you do? You know, what did you not do? You know, who did you seek out for guidance? how did you prove yourself? You know, often it's going back to these experiences and remembering what it was like

when you didn't know enough to be afraid. You know, because I think fear is a learned. It's a learned attitude. And remembering what that was like and projecting that forward, how would I work today if I were a rookie at my work? I think that's one of the most powerful shifts is just to simply remember what it was like.

You know, like looked at all of these different rookie scenarios. And I looked at about 400 different work scenarios. I found it was really interesting breed of rookie, this perpetual rookie. And these are people who are smart and successful and experienced, who despite years of experience and, you know, and even the trappings of success, they maintain this ability to work like a rookie, like the photographer Annie Leibowitz, who, you know, this iconic photographer, you know, perhaps the best in her field, whose clients say she approaches every shoot as if it were her first, you know, obsessing over every detail.

We found that they have a set of deliberate practices. You know, you might kind of rekindle your rookie smarts, this hungry, vibrant way of working. You might do it by going into a meeting and saying, you know, I'm just going to ask the naive questions in this meeting. the question the newcomer would ask. And you might find that those questions are the thing that help unite a group to clarify what's done to surface the issue that no one's been willing to talk about.

Perhaps you spend time with the newcomers in your field. One of my favorite perpetual rookies is Bob Hurley, who was the surfer, who founded Hurley Sports, the Staten Surf Apparel Company. he at every junction in growing this company, you know, into being a multi-billion dollar enterprise, now part of the Nike family of products. He said, I had no idea what I was doing. But it turned out to be a disadvantage. And he grew this company with, you know, what I call rookie smart.

But what was more interesting is how he maintains it. You know, I'm like, Bob, how do you keep this vibrant way of working despite all this success? He said, well, I have my days where I, you know, I'm stuck. I can't see things differently where, you know, you're slipping into mediocrity. And he said, I grab my board, and I go down to the beach and I surf with the amateurs. You know, not the hurly sponsored surfers, but the young. And he said, I let their energy renew me. Boy, that's good.

You know, it's interesting. I love that story because, as you were telling that, I was thinking, you know, we use the word rookie sometimes with an almost negative connotation. You know what I mean? Oh, you rookie. And what defines a rookie many times, Liz? It's that enthusiastic courage, meaning they just are so excited to be where they're at, and they also believe they can get it done.

And the combination is almost, it gets on people's nerves at times, but it's what allows us to get things done that we probably should have never been able to do. Right. You know, like how can we work if we don't lose our sense? childlike wonder. That's so good. Wondering what is possible, wondering why. I mean, I've been thinking about this and really sort of post-publishing the book.

It's like, you know, what would happen if we continue to work with true childlike wonder? Because we'll end up doing all the things that help us build strong, vital businesses. We ask really tough questions. We're fearless. We delight in mistakes and, you know, as an opportunity to sort of discover, we improvise. we improvise, you know, we get resourceful. Yes. And in essence, what these perpetual workies have just not lost the sense of wonder in their work.

And for them, their work is play. Boy, that's good right there. That is worth the entire podcast right there, that statement. I think that's so very true. I want to dive deep into a couple of word pictures, Liz, that you use in the book. And these are wonderful. Now, you've touched on a few of these throughout the conversation, but I want to dive deep for a moment.

The first one is this backpacker mode. That's a wonderful analogy. Rookies are a lot like wilderness backpackers. Break that down for us specifically. What do we look like if we are wilderness backpackers? Yeah, so what I did is I looked at how people tend to think and act when they're doing something for the first time. It's what, you know, the data that came out of these 400 scenarios comparing how inexperienced people approach work and how experienced people approach it.

And we found that rookies do work a lot like backpackers. They're unencumbered. They're unencumbered by knowledge, by assumptions, often unencumbered by the resources that we tend to acquire with experience. And because they're not weighed down, they're able to venture further. They're able to explore new terrain. Often what they're unencumbered by is just the knowledge that what they're doing is hard. I mean, Ken, think about how many things you said yes to and you embarked on that were brutally hard, but you just didn't know it at the time.

Yep. But you said, hey, sure. You know, for me, I'm always telling myself, hey, how hard can this be? I can do this. And it's not until I get out on the journey that I realize it's hard. You know, in some cases it's bloody hard. And rookies are just unencumbered by that knowledge. So they're willing to embark, whereas when we have experience, we tend to be way.

down by a reputation we have to protect, a track record to uphold, or perhaps just resources to protect. You know, if you work in a corporate world, you know how much inefficiency, if not craziness happens inside of organizations with managers protecting their turf. Yeah, that's good. You know, I want to say this. I think that there is a experience factor that somehow turns everything into a reality, and it's a false reality.

Just because we had one bad experiences, I mean that all future ones are going to play out the same way. That's what I love about this backpacker mode. Oh, yeah. You know, our experience in many ways becomes just like adult onset learning disability. That's good. Well, we just can't see things. There's this fabulous piece of research, Kitty Wolkover, about how our brain tends to fill in patterns. You know, when we have seen a pattern before, there's a number of very predictable.

things that happen, we miss errors. We overlook changes. Or as my teenage sentence, you just start making stuff up. Sometimes we fill in the blanks and we put data in place that's actually not really there. We just think it should be there. Because it was there the time before or the time before that. So our experience can very easily cloud over our thinking where we lose touch with reality. Ken, one of the things I thought was so interesting when I did this research was to study how our work world is changing. And maybe I can best sum that up with a few data points. I looked at the rate at which information is increasing and also the rate at which

information is becoming obsolete because, you know, our business cycles are spinning faster, our innovation cycles are spinning faster. If you work in science or technology, I estimated that about 15% of what you know today, is actually going to be relevant in five years. Wow. And the kicker is this. The kicker is, we don't even know which 15% that is. Well, that's true.

Hello. And as our knowledge becomes ephemeral, you know, what becomes critical is being able to see reality as it's changing. Wow, that is so good. All right. So I want to move to another word picture. This is great. And I've got to tell you, Liz, when I read this,

it was an awful moment for me because I've seen the Tony Robbins Oprah specials where he gets people to firewalk. And if you're not familiar with it, Robbins has done this for years, other motivators as well. And they're walking across hot coals. And I never realized what you reveal in the book. So unpack this ancient ritual of firewalking and how it relates so beautifully to the mindset of a rookie. Well, you know, I've been fascinated with firewalking as well. I've never done this. But I always assumed that it was this sort of mind over matter, this sort of supernatural kind of feat of heroics,

and it really isn't at all. You know, the physics behind, you know, walking the hot cold is that cold are very poor conductors of heat. So, you know, if you stand on those colds, yeah, you'll get burned, but if you move fast across them, do not there long enough for the heat to actually transfer enough to create, a true kind of a burn on your feet. And I found it's how rookies tend to work. I found there's really interesting pattern in the data that when we are new to something, we are cautious.

You know, we often think of newcomers as these big, bold risk takers. And we found that's not actually true at all, that rookies are risk mitigators. They're very aware that they're doing something they don't know how to do. And so they don't take big bold moves because they're already feeling incompetent what they do is they're cautious. They operate in these kind of thin slices, kind of getting feedback, staying in touch with their stakeholders. They're cautious, but we also found they're extraordinarily fast.

And in our rookie state, we tend to work faster and deliver faster than we do in our state of experience. And so as I looked at this puzzling data, I'm like, they're cautious, but they're fast. Like, oh, that seems a lot like the way someone walks hot colds. very aware that they're doing something dangerous, so cautious. But boy, do you move fast so you don't be burned. That's so true. I want to stop there for a second, Liz, because I want people to, you know, in podcast sometimes, people are doing all kinds of things. They're exercising.

They're cutting the grass, whatever they're doing, shoveling snow, if it's this time of year, of course. And think about the person walking across the coals, Liz. They've got the hands out. They're cautious. They're not sprinting across, but boy, oh, boy, you're right. They are moving quick. And why is that such a huge payoff? Well, you know, as I looked at this pattern of how rookies work, they improvise, they experiment, they work in thin cycles, they move fast, they don't bring new ideas.

Essentially what they bring is they bring no ideas. So they're forced to seek out and get advice from others, which kind of binds them to other people. And because they don't know what they're doing, they seek feedback. If I looked at this full set of things, I thought, you know, that's how so many people. Many corporations are trying to get their workforce to operate with lean agile cycles. If you look at Eric Reese's work around the lean startup, you know, this way of working in sprints, pieces of functionality delivered fast to the marketplace so that we can find out what the consumer wants, rather than these kind of behemoth engineering projects that take a year or two,

and by the time you deliver them, the world has changed. Well, these thin ways of working, I think, is really the way of the future, and it's the way so many companies are trying to innovate. And I think one of the messages of this book is, you know, rather than just put processes in place and try to tell your experience people to be agile and lean and improvise and be frugal, just put people in rookie assignments. Give people something to do that they don't fully know how to do, or maybe even something that they're a bit clueless at,

and you'll find that they naturally work in these methods, because they have to. You know, one of the things we haven't discussed specifically, Liz, and I really felt the theme popping up to me as I read the book, is that when we take on a rookie mindset and we put others in rookie-type scenarios, we give people and ourselves permission to fail, right? because even though the rookie is cautious, because they don't know a whole lot, there's a natural leniency we give to rookies, don't we, Liz?

And to ourselves, when we take on a rookie mindset, that, you know what, I'm giving myself permission to fail because I'm going to figure out how to do it right the next time. What are your thoughts on that? Well, you know, I could not agree with you more, and I think that might be the big boon to how we work when we're rookies is because we have nowhere to go but up. We're willing to announce our ignorance. You know, there's a story in the book that,

For me, was one of the most poignant learning experiences of my career is when I was working with a group of top executives, and they were struggling to try to articulate the corporate strategy to the next layer of executives in the company. And we were doing round after round of this work, and it just wasn't working. And so here I am with the three top executives of Oracle Corporation. and I'm trying to help them see that this isn't working

that the strategy just isn't clear and they're not really clearly articulating it and the CFO who was my boss at the time he said Liz you can stop beating us up he said we get that this isn't working we understand it he said the problem is we don't know how to do it we've never set a strategy for a $25 billion

company before because the company is growing He said, we don't know how to do it. And he looked at me and he said, you know, I'm running the learning function for the company. And he said, if you could help us figure out how to do it, now that would be helpful. And here I was slack job because these were three executives I revered. I figured they knew what they were doing. I mean, everyone thought they knew what they're doing. And I think what I learned is that even the people at the top are winging it,

particularly in growth times and in times of change. And we often don't give experienced people, senior people, executives, permission to admit that they don't know what they're doing either, that they're learning as they go, that they're, what Jeff was saying is, hey, we're rookies at this. Could you help us? And, of course, I went out and got them the help that they needed to sort of build a framework for doing this, and then they did it, and they did it brilliantly, and they hit it out of the park.

and it was fun to watch them experience the joy of learning and admitting that they didn't know. And I really do think when we're in this state, we give ourselves permission to experiment and to fail. And I really think we need to give more people opportunities to be rookies again, particularly those at the top of the corporate ladder and at the top of the experience hierarchy. Well, I could not agree more, Liz. I think this is such an important book. It's called Rookie Smart's Why Learning Beats Knowing in the New Game of Work. I'm looking at the cover of it right now, folks. And I love the cover.

It's got a picture of a pair of black Chuck Taylor's. Old school, I've got about seven pairs in all different colors, juxtapose from a black wingtip. And I think that's the perfect image, Liz, of that final answer, this idea of giving ourselves permission to be young at heart and mind and in work again. I think we should throw away the wingtips for a week. Liz, and go Chuck Taylor with the suits. What do you think? Well, you know, I think it's never too late to be a rookie, and right now, as the world is changing fast, it really isn't about what you know.

It's about how quickly you can learn. So, you know, you might be donning the business suit, but you know what, throw on a pair of sneakers, as you said, and continue to think and act like you've never done it before. The book website is rookiesmarts.com. I'm rookie smarts.com. She is Liz Wiseman, the book again. Rookie Smarts. Run and go get it. This is a great read.

I really enjoyed the read. And Liz, very, very appreciative for you spending time with us. This is going to make us all better. Thank you. It was a delightful conversation. Thank you. Thank you for reading the book and sharing it. All right.

We want to thank Liz for her time. I absolutely love this conversation. I could have talked to her for another hour, Chris. Oh, absolutely. I think she's on to something. She is very much onto something. And the two of you talking, you could hear the energy in the conversation. And you know what, Ken, to me, that's the thing that matters.

It's this passion factor. Yes. You know, and I think if people will tap into that, then that's the thing that will get you reinvigorated and get you excited about getting up out of bed. Now, Chris is fired up. He's got a takeaway in a challenge coming to you in just one minute. But I want to first mention, we're very excited to continue, Chris, our Twitter book giveaway, Liz Wiseman, her team and her publisher, very just.

generously offering us 50 books, 50 books for you find people out there. How do you qualify? Good question. You tweet this, learning beats knowing at Entree Leadership Podcast. You're just giving us a mention. The phrase learning beats knowing at Entree Leadership Podcast. You tweet that, Chris, you are qualified. Eric, the producer will then put all the names in a hat.

He pulls them out. He'll get in touch and you get a free book, free copy of Rookie Smart's, why learning meets knowing in the new game of work. And we also have another giveaway. This is free. It is called the Rookie Smart's Worksheet. This is a worksheet at one sheet put together by Liz and her very able team. You can download that for free at Entreeleadership.com slash podcast. Entreleadership.com slash podcast to get the Rookie Smart's worksheet. Now, Chris, you listen to the interview. You have read the book. something that you were listening to as a leader that you took away from this and then challenged

these men and women who are listening right now. Well, I tell you, as I was listening to it, and reading this, I was taking notes. And I'm thinking, what's the thing that jumps out at me? And you know me as a teacher. I love alliteration and I love quick samples. So I've got five E's for people out there to be focused on working like a rookie. The first one is engagement. You've got to know exactly what it is you want and where you're going to go. The second, the E, is effort. You've got to pay it. You've got to put in the work to do what you want to do. The third one is energy. You've got to make sure you keep bringing it. Don't backslide. And the fourth is enthusiasm. I want you to be excited about what you're doing. Have fun. And if you're somewhere you don't want to

be or you're growing past it, be enthusiastic about learning what you can where you are. And the fifth is experiment. I want you to constantly be trying to improve you. Listen to other people. Don't be prideful and think you can do it all alone because nobody got anywhere worth going by themselves. Wow, that is so good. And most of all, the emotions of being a rookie recapture those in our daily grind because it is a grind. Leadership is a grind. It's a journey. And even if you're a veteran, we've got to find that in a rookie. You sure do. And what it is is, Kenon, you said all throughout the interview, you were alluding to mindset. Yes. And attitude. And so getting that back, your team is going to see that. They're going

to get invigorated, and they're going to get excited too. And I'm telling you, excited, prepared people do stuff. That's exactly right. Oh, that's so good. Folks, don't you just love when Hogan comes around? My goodness gracious, he's going to be in here a lot before he gets back out on the road. So thrilled to have you with us, bro. Thank you for having me. Always good. What a great challenge. Hey, listen, we want to make sure you know, we'd love for you to dive into All Access. Chris, you're a part of All Access or online coaching. Real quick, 10 seconds, tell them why they should check out All Access. Well, because in All Access, what you have an opportunity to do is not only grow yourself, but also use that same content to train your team. It's an excellent leadership

builder. Yeah, so do that. And also, our new event, first time ever, it's on track for a sellout. The Entree Leadership Summit, Chris Hogan, Christy Wright, from our team will be joining Henry Cloud, John Maxwell, Pat Lincione, Rabbi Daniel Lapin, and of course, Dave Ranay. Ramsey, Entreeleadership.com slash summit is how you find out. We'd love for you to join us out in beautiful Southern California this next May. That is going to do it for this edition of the Entree Leadership podcast. As always, it's great to have Chris Hogan here. Thank you, my friend, for being here.

And on behalf of Eric Anthony and the entire Entree Leadership team, thank you for listening. We will talk with you again very soon.