EntreLeadership - How Leaders Accidentally Reward Toxic Behavior

Episode Date: January 12, 2026

Today, we’ll hear about: ·      A businesswoman trying to confront a toxic employee while dealing with her team’s complacency  ·      The best way to reduce leadership turnover—by creating stability and building systems that withstand constant change ·      How to escape endless growth pressure by redefining business success ·      How to lead different generations with clarity, consistent standards and uncompromising expectations   Next Steps: ·      📞 Have a question for the show? Call 844-944-1070 or send us a message: https://ter.li/ask-us ·      📚 Learn about the EntreLeadership System™: https://ter.li/system-p ·      💻 Get EntreLeadership Elite™ for your business: https://ter.li/elite-p ·      ✉️ Sign up to receive tactical tools, advice and resources in your inbox every week: https://ter.li/enl ·      🏢 Attend EntreLeadership Summit: https://ter.li/summit  ·      🎤 Attend EntreLeadership Master Series: https://ter.li/masterseries  ·      📖 Order Dave’s new book, Build a Business You Love: https://ter.li/b4kru2 ·      📘 Get your free EntreLeadership® Reading Guide today: https://ter.li/7qjso2   Connect With Our Sponsors: ·      💼 Go to Belay Solutions or text ENTRE to 55123 for their free resource! ·      💻 Visit NetSuite today to learn more. ·      🧾 Visit Payority for a free consultation! ·      📈 Grab Sales Gravy's free resource to help you hire and lead better.   Listen to More From Ramsey Network: 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🧠 The Dr. John Delony Show 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show💰 George Kamel   Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

From the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is Entree Leadership, where I take calls from leaders like you about what it takes to win at any stage of business and leadership. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host with over 30 years of experience leading in the trenches, just like you. If you got a question you want to ask us on the show, fill out the form at Entryleadership.com slash ask or call and leave us a voicemail at 844-944-1070. That's 844-944-1070. Samantha is with us in Cleveland, Ohio. Hi, Samantha. How are you? I'm great, Dave.

How are you doing? Better than I deserve. What's up? It's such an honor and pleasure to talk to you, so thank you so much for taking my call. My pleasure. How can I help? My husband and I own a retail gun shop here in Northeast Ohio. We grossed about $1.5 million last year, and we have five full-time-in-fullties,

including ourselves. Lately, the culture around here is just really going downhill. Complacency, lack of motivation, and just a general complaining attitude are really starting to affect our work and the overall customer experience. I'm starting to feel like my guys are just coming to the old J-O-B, like just another day. And I struggle because I'm not really overly outspoken and I tend to avoid confrontation. My question is, how can I be uplifting and motivating? while still holding my team accountable so that we don't turn into your typical boring old gun shop. So there's two of you plus three team members? Correct.

Okay. So small, small family team. Can you honestly tell me that one of them is the big problem and the other two are followers? Yes and no. Yeah, you're too nice. I mean, so lately, we have one that he really reflects the thing of the other two. And so if one person starts to call off a lot, then he starts to call off a lot. Or if someone's doing a lot of complaining, then it's kind of like a, I don't know, like a repeater, I guess.

So that one's not the problem. He's not the leader in the thing. But there's a leader in the clubhouse. So anyway, what I would do, it's a small team. You and your husband both work in the shop? Yes. I'm here probably a little bit more. He's usually out doing the buying and going to gun shows all over the country and all that kind of stuff.

Okay. It's up to y'all how you handle it, but either one of you, probably you, if it's one, because that's who they report to, really, or the two of you, I would just load up each one of them and take them to lunch individually and say, guys, you know, we've got this thing that has kind of set in here and this cloud of complacency, this cloud of complaining, and this cloud of other stuff. And so I need to let you know, I've been unfair to you and I apologize. And the way I've been unfair is I let it go on too long. And so now I've got to tell you it's over. we're not going to do that anymore

and so if you have a complaint you have one place you can bring it and that's to me if you discuss it with the other two I will fire you that day okay I'm done we're not doing this anymore and if you don't want to work here

that's okay I understand if you think we're dofuses I understand this is the time to figure that out though we're here at lunch to talk about it is there anything I can do to help make this place better that you think I need to work on and let them talk to you about that at lunch one-on-one. Okay. And then when they finish that, say, okay, we'll work on that together. And my job as the leader is to make things better for the team.

And it's one of my jobs. And so I want to help the team be better. And but as of today, you need to understand that any time you've got a suggestion, a problem, a complaint, anytime you want to take your foot off the gas and not play for the Super Bowl, You've got to bring that to me. If you take it to the other two, you're affecting the rest of the team, and we're not going to be able to work together anymore. Do we understand each other? Okay.

Yeah, I feel like I have tried to do something similar. No, you're too nice. You've not been that blunt. Well, but so then I'll do something like, you know, say like that, and then I feel like they kind of like, well, I haven't held them accountable. So that's, that's totally out. Yeah. If they do it, you got to fire them. Right. Okay.

If you say I'm going to fire you and you do this, then you have to fire him. Yeah. And it'll make a believer of the other two when the bad guy walks out the door and it'll be him. And you know who he is. You just don't want to admit it because he's really good at his job and the customers really like him. And n-and-and-in-in-in-in-and-a. But he's the bad apple. And you know exactly who he is.

You just don't want to admit it. Yeah. You don't want to replace him. Well, yeah, that's true. I don't want to replace any of my guys. I want us to all stay together for a long. But I want to replace him. I already don't like him.

He's pissing me off right now. Yeah. Yeah. Because I know what he's doing. Listen, the money you spend on payroll, those three guys, other than cost of good sold, and your store is your biggest item. Right. And he's screwing up the entire payroll investment.

This one guy by being a butt. He's acting like he's a 14-year-old. Wee-me-me-me-me-me-me-me-me. He didn't get to sit at the right lunch table. Well, kiss my butt. Seriously. You know what I'm talking about? I do.

I do. And I feel like when I do go to talk to the guys, I mean, you've been in gun shops, you know. It's a hard, they're hard nuts to crack. No, no, they're not. They just need to know exactly what's going on. You know, guys that work with. their hands and guys that are trades in the trades, they are, they're not dumb, but they have a culture that if you allow that culture to this, I'm going to kick back and not do my job

and get paid anyway culture to kick in. If you allow that, you're going to have a whole company full of it. And it's no fun to come to work. Right. Yeah, we wanted to hire in 2026. I'd like to hire two more people, but I know that we can't if it's just going to be like, because no it's not going to be like this because you're going to hire better right well i'm not hiring anybody else looking for a job if you guys think you can come in here and just collect a check

we're playing for the super ball if you're just showing up and mailing it in and your body language has no energy i mean we're in the gun business for god's sakes that's exciting stuff explodes you know i mean it's great you're i mean if you've never shot a gun folks i mean my god you put it in your hand and it explodes. It's awesome. It's so exciting. Have you got a range? We don't know. Okay. But I mean, you start talking about guns with gun people. It's exciting. Right. I know. And I want them. And it used to be that way where everyone was excited to talk about it. And then I think, you know, the shininess of working at a gun shop has worn off. Well, then maybe it's time to go work at the ice cream store. I don't care. But we're going to be,

we're going to be excited here. This is what we do. This is a, this is a, an exciting thing. Let me tell you, when someone buys their very first firearm, you know what I'm talking about. It's emotional. Yeah. It's weird. I remember. I mean, and a guy was asking me about my collection the other day, and he said, how many guns have you got? And I told him, he said, that's not a collection. That's an addiction. That's right. You got it. But I mean, it's a wonderful business. It's fun. I've got friends all over that business that own shops and that are manufacturers now. I know several of the manufacturers personally. And It's a great business.

Be excited about it. You know, it's like, God, man, you get to represent the most fun thing. And if you're bored and hate your job, man, I mean, that may be Jesus telling you to work somewhere else. Let's listen to Jesus. I agree. Yeah. Just seriously, you have to decide you're going to get what you allow. And it's your fault that it got here.

You're right. Because you've allowed it and you knew better. and you did it in the name of being nice and trying to go, well, they're good guys down deep. Yeah, I know, but they suck on the surface. I'm not doing this. I don't care how down deep needs to come on up, you know. So that bull crap, I'm not making excuses for this. When a customer comes in, I want your shoulders square, your eyes twinkling,

and you racking a slide, baby, talking about how great this stinking sig is. I mean, let's just do it, right? Right. And if they can't get there, I don't want to buy you. gun from them. Well, that's the problem. And that's what we're running into is like, yeah, they're affecting sales. I want to be scaring off customers. But they're scaring, let me tell you, they're scaring off. They're scaring off a newbie. Someone who's bought a bunch of guns is not scared of this guy. They'll just put up with him just because they want to buy the gun. But the other

people, they get freaked out because they're like, well, this guy's, he's kind of a grouch. I don't, no, not. And you're losing sales to it. And you're losing productivity of your largest line item in your P&L called your payroll. So you've got to do something about it. And let me tell you, I went through this, and the first time I ever let someone go that I thought was a key, I thought the whole team was going to be mad. I thought we were going to lose everyone when I fired this person. And the person was a jerk. And I put up with it in the name of, I'm Southern and you have to be nice, right?

Well, I'm pissed off down inside, but I'm going to be, bless your heart, right? Now, I put up with it way too long. And finally, when I just said, that's enough. and we made the decision that they're not going to be here. I came in the next morning. I thought they were all going to be mad at me, but I always call it the Wizard of Oz thing. The old Wizard of Oz, you remember the old Wizard of Oz?

When they, Dorothy, at the end of it, she's been captured by the flying monkeys, right? She's in the castle with the Wicked Witch of the West, and the Wicked Witch of the West catches, the broom catches on fire. Dorothy grabs a mop bucket and throws it, accidentally splashes the Wicked Witch of the West, and melts her and kills her. Remember this? And she goes like, what a world, what a world! And goes through the trap door and the dry ice, right?

And you remember all this, right? And there's the hat sitting there. And the Wicked Witch had these soldiers that were like umpalumpas, like with puffy things and curved swords and all this stuff. You remember this? And they're all standing and they go, oh, you remember that? And so they're all standing around. And there's this pregnant moment.

Every time I watch the show, even as an adult now, when the Wicked Witch goes through the floor, Dorothy has killed the soldier's boss. Are they going to turn on her with those curved swords? Instead, they kneel, and they say, all hail, Dorothy. When I fired that person that was the bad apple and I walked in the next morning, everyone kneeled and said, all hail, Dorothy. They were not mad.

They were mad. It took me so long. They were not mad at all. they were happy that someone in leadership finally had a backbone and got rid of the freaking grouch. And well, we don't have to listen to him all day long. Nobody wants to work with that crap, but people put up with it because leadership puts up with it. And so I'm going to talk to them nice, and then I'm going to talk to him a little tougher, and then I'm going to fire him. And that's what we do at Ramsey, and people come in here the other day.

I was walking through here with a bunch of guys from New York, and they're all, you know, New York. And so they're walking through this place. And we've got 1100 people on here. They go, this is the happiest place. All these people are working and smiling and happy. And you have the nicest people. And I said, yeah, we get rid of the other ones. That's how that happens.

And that's what you're facing, Samantha. That's what you're facing. So, you know, just be all hell, Dorothy. That's all you got to remember. And then you'll be a, then when you take the step, people appreciate leadership doing the right thing for the right reasons with kindness and firmness. All hail Samantha. That's how we do it, baby. Proud of you, Samantha. Love your business. Keep it up, kiddo. Keep it up. You got a great business. Owning a business can be a heavy load. You want to serve your customers well, make a healthy

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Ryan is in Fort Worth, Texas. Hey, Ryan, what's up? Hi, Dave. Thank you so much for. having me on the show. I am the operating partner for two quick service restaurants in Fort Worth, and we have about 170 team members combined, and we will do around $17 million this year. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Very high volume, but also very high turnover in the industry. Yeah. And so... By the average is, what, 300 percent?

I would say industry is definitely 150% or more. Oh, is it? Okay. Industry, yes. We're at around 50%. So I would say we're doing good. Yeah, you're doing real good. But I think my question relates more to, if I could reference your podcast around building the roundtable, specifically turn over in leadership. I am turning over one person every six months at that table, and I feel like I'm on defense. And so how do you build something that is lasting when you know there's constantly going to be turnover?

And how do you know when it's time to stop fighting the turnover and plan and design for it? Wow, those are great questions. So the leadership team, I am surprised you've got that much turnover. I'm not surprised with your servers or your front, your counter people, that kind of stuff. That's where most of the turnover occurs. I mean, like, I've got a friend that owns about 15 restaurants, and he said, he tells me the server turnover and cook turnover and that kind of thing is, you know, that's up in the 300 percent. He's got his down to about 100 percent, and he's real proud of that. And, but that would drive me nuts.

I mean, we have like an 8 percent here. So, you know, it's a different world. And that's the whole building, not real leadership. but I'm a little bit shocked that your leaders are turning. Tell me about that. Yes, and there's healthy retention. We're talking about leaders that have been with us for four to ten years, and the last several have left just because they're moving.

Okay, so it really wasn't a job change. It was like I got married and my spouse lives in Oklahoma. There's been one job change, three relocations moving for either family, school, different reasons, but it's not been bad turnover at the leadership table. Yeah, we do keep a statistic internally what we call it good turnover and then bad turnover. Bad turnover is they quit to get a better job or we fired them. Okay, good turnover is, you know, they got pregnant with their second child and they do all the Ramsey stuff so they're out of debt so they got one on to be a full-time mom and they're able to because we taught them how and so that's good turnover or good turnover is I lost lady the day been with me 15 years she got married and no kid and the guy lives in Oklahoma so they went to Oklahoma because she ought to live with her husband that's kind of cool so um you know so that's how that works but yeah that's good turnover I don't count that as we're doing something wrong that's just life so you only had a couple that are that are um you know in the last

couple years, you don't have a lot of leadership turnover. It might be the age group that you're hiring. The younger they are, you know, the more family changes they've got, getting married, having kids, and so forth, the more you're going to have a demographic push to push them out. So you're going to have some of that. Like we've got a real young crew here. The average age in the building is probably under 30 right now. And so we get some turnover just due to that. That hasn't got anything to do with Ramsey did some. something wrong or we're missing something. So anyway, I think what I would do is I'm going to put a series of values and principles around the leadership table that we're functioning on and make sure

that we all are adhering to those core values and we're all holding each other accountable to those and the leadership team has developed extreme trust. You know, go through Lynchione's book, seven disfunctions of a team, make sure that the team's not functioning in any of those dysfunctions, and constantly be teaching, teaching, teaching leadership to your leaders. When they leave, just think, I'm Nick Saban, and now that coach is able to go coach and be Kirby Smart at Georgia,

who used to work for Nick Saban. And just take some pride in the fact that they're going to go be successful because they had the pleasure of working on your leadership team. And what you instilled in them while they were there, you are Nick Saban in this case, okay? There's a lot of coaches have been birthed out of the Sabin dynasty, a lot of winning coaches. And so there's a pride you can take in that,

even though it didn't benefit, Nick Saban, except that he just influenced these men who become world-class coaches themselves. And so, you know, you could take some pride in that. An example on the front line on that would be the folks at Chick-fil-A. They don't expect the teenager in high school that's working their front counter to work there for 25 years on average. So they take great pride in what they instill in to that teenager in training and in values while they're working there. And so then teenagers want to come to work there, even though they know it's not a career move, but what they're getting poured into them while they're there is of great value.

And so it becomes a very attractive hiring model because you become known as the guy who teaches leadership at the roundtable. You become known as the guy who lifts up the teenager and teaches them values and hard work in a world that is so confused and screwed up that they don't even know how to navigate. And so, you know, you can be that guy, but the part of that is, you know, I had Entree Leadership Master Series a few weeks ago, a few months ago now over in Texas where you are. and I had two former team members running businesses in the audience learning leadership from us and paid to come to our event and they used to work here. And so I just had to go, I'm Nick Saban. You know, because they're both friends. They're both good guys.

They both left to open their own thing when they left here using what I taught them. But I lost them. And all I get for that is I get the satisfaction. action of being Nick Saban, you know, in that case, right? And they're two, they're studs. Both of them are great guys. And I gave them both a hug when I saw them in the audience, you know, so that kind of thing. But that's, that's the only thing you can do is just go, I'm doing the right thing. And then what that does is it spreads beyond just that singular transaction and becomes a, becomes a cultural icon to where it becomes very attractive to come

to work for Ryan, because he's the guy you want to work for if you want to learn leadership. The 10 years I spent with Ryan changed and formed me as a man. It changed me spiritually. It made me a better husband. It made me a better wife. It did this. And when people start telling people that about having worked for you, that sends a message out into the community that people want to work for them because you're a stud. You're a great leader at that point.

But it is a long play, and it's the only play. The second part of your question is, do I just get used to and tolerate the high turnover? and that would be with the rest of the team, obviously, because you're not got a high turnover with your leadership. No, I'm going to get used to it, but I'm not going to acquiesce to it. I'm going to constantly putting pressure, how can I minimize this?

How can I minimize this? Because I am convinced that turnover costs you tons of money in any business, even in a high turnover industry like you're in. So it's very expensive to rehire and retrain. They don't do anything for the first three weeks in your own payroll because they're just learning how to walk across the floor properly. My God, it's ridiculous. And so, you know, you just don't get much out of folk for the first few minutes they're with you. So hiring, training, recruiting, it's all just dead money.

So I want to minimize that as much as I can by minimizing turnover. as much as I can. But then there's also a part of it that goes, hey, I got teenagers on the front thing and they're high schoolers and they're probably not going to be here come summer or come winter when they go back to school or whatever it is. And so that's just part of the model or I've got to hire old people at the front counter instead of teenagers or whatever it is. I don't know.

But what can I do to minimize it or to work back against it? I'm going to constantly be tuning the engine even though I know it's only going to produce so much horsepower. I wouldn't just give up on it, but also wouldn't stay up at night going I'm a failure. You're not. You're better than the industry average, and I'm going to continue to work to get better, but I'm also not going to lose sleep over it. And that's where I would drop all of that off. You're a good man. These are really solid questions, man. You're really thinking about this, and you're doing a good job. 17 million out of two stores, pretty strong. Well done, buddy. Well done. If you're a business leader, you're not just busy.

you're probably maxed out, and while the world's chasing speed, automation, and the next trend, your job is to navigate all of it, while moving your team forward. That means using your brain for the things only you can do, casting vision, making big decisions, building culture, and leading with wisdom. Not wasting hours on managing your inbox or rescheduling meetings. That's why great leaders delegate, and that's why Belay exists. Belay provides world-class executive assistants who help you focus your energy where it counts. These aren't just order takers, they're strategic,

partners. People who protect your time and guard your headspace so you can lead with clarity, even in the chaos. But it can't replace your judgment, and it sure can't take your place in the boardroom. Belay executive assistants make sure you have margin to think, space to lead, and time to breathe. To learn more about how Belay can help you lead better, download Belay's free resource, the future of executive partnership today. Just text Entree to 55123. That's E-N-T-R-E to 55-123. Question of the day from Trevor in Raleigh, North Carolina. Dave, my business just crushed every goal we set. Best sales year ever, biggest profit we've ever seen.

But instead of enjoying it, I'm already stressed out about how to top it. I feel like I've created a monster. The team expects bigger every year, and I do too. How do you break that more, more, more, more cycle before it eats you alive? Hmm. More, more and more has to be about something other than just more, more and more. If it's only about more, more, more, it's going to eat you alive. If it's winning just for winning's sake, if it's a bigger number, but it's not tied to something.

And so an example is, you know, when you run a business that is going up in sales, most likely, 90-something percent of the time, you are making your customers very happy. Or your sales wouldn't be going up. there's a percentage, a small percentage, you're screwing people, but that doesn't last. That's not sustainable, right? But most of the time, when you make a profit, Ken Blanchard says, profit is the applause that your customers give you. So when your sales go up, it means your customers are saying, good job, good job, good job. And so if you're selling something that's helpful, which I assume you are in some way,

and it's helping them in some way, doing something, then I want to sell more of it and help more people. And so if more and more and more is not about more, more, but it's about helping more people, that has meaning. And so we set some lofty goals for our budgeting app that we've just converted into a full financial app. It's got all these extra features now. It's called Every Dollar.

And we've just set some really lofty goals on it, not because it's not already huge. It's massive. It's tens of millions of people using the thing every day. It's massive. But it's helping people. People are getting out of debt. They're paying off their homes. They're writing us letters that their marriage is being healed, working together on the every dollar app, and they're having good communication. We're getting all kinds of positive customers are saying, way to go, way to go, way to go. So when we set goals for every dollar, it's not just about, oh, we've got to beat last year. no it's like we want to help more people so that each time we increase a sale it means someone's been helped and they're smiling and you are too and so make more people smile is different than

more more more more make more people's life better is better than just more more more more one has a tinge of greed one has a tinge of service greed is more more more more services make more people smile make more people's life better and uh and i'm not going to sleep until more people Their life is better. And so we want to do a better job with this podcast. So more of you'd run a better business and you serve your team better and your customers better because I was here and because this podcast came on and because we did a good job. So we want more, more, more. But it's not just that we want to get an award from some podcast thingy.

I got plenty of those. But that's okay. But I really, they really don't matter at the end of the day. What does matter is when I walk up somebody on the street, they go, hey, man, you help me with my business. And that matters. That's helpful. And so I do want more of that. More, more, more. Bring it, baby. So I think if you get the, if you take it to an act of service, transfer it from just, we want more money or we want bigger numbers, which are kind of vague. That feels like on the greed side and take it over to the service side of, hey, our customers are standing over there waiting on us. We got to get to them. We got to help them. They don't even know we exist yet.

and they're already our customer. We've got to go find them and get them and make them a customer. And that, because they need our help. I mean, you know how many people in America are broke right now and need this every dollar app? All of them. All of them. I mean, so, I mean, we got a lot of work to do.

Me and Jenny Craig, we got a lot of work to do, right? I mean, there's broke people everywhere. You know, think about it. So, oh, man, you got to think, if you start thinking about it in that, then that'll keep you working when you don't need money anymore, which, by the way, which is why I work for the past 20 years. I haven't needed money in a long time. I work because I want more and more and more service, more and more people. Lives changed. More and more and more people meeting Jesus. More and more and more people having a whole different look on the way they run their business

and treat their team. And that gets me up. More money? Yeah, money. You can get some more money. That's all right. But that doesn't drive it. So, yeah, I think when you, the good news is that we have an infinite market. We're not like a football team where once you've won the World Series or once you've won the Super Bowl five times, it kind of gets boring, I guess. I don't know. It never happened to me. But, you know, that's more, more, more, right?

So, but, and so what are you, how are you going to get that team up to go do it again if they've done it five times or whatever, right? So, um, that's different. Thank God. But, I mean, but if you've never won the Super Bowl, we've never won the World Series, more, more is it? that's enough to get you going. But again, service and let's do something.

Let's do it for the guy who's never gotten a ring and he's been in the business forever. And the guy who's never said, you know, he's getting ready to Rick. The hockey player broke Gretzky's record a couple months ago, you know, and 900 goals. You know, I'd love to have been on the team that was on the ice helping that guy set the all-time scoring record in the NHL. That's a cool thing. But that has nothing to do with more more, more. That's like this guy deserves it. iconic, right? And so that's perfect. So anyway, yeah, I think it's down to your core spiritual

motivation. What's driving the more, more, more will change whether or not you can stay motivated with it over time. That's my best guess anyway. If you're working 60 to 70 hours a week just to keep your business running, you're headed for burnout. The only way to grow without running on empty is to stop working in your business and start working on your business. and that takes advice and accountability from people who actually make payroll. That's why you need to join an advisory group. You'll get a coach and a circle of business owners like you who will help you stay focused and grow without sacrificing your nights and weekends.

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That's 844-9-4-1070. Jeff is in Oklahoma City. Hey, Jeff, what's up? Hi. Hey, thanks for taking my call. Sure. I'm currently the vice president of sales at a manufacturing company. We have about 150 employees, and we're on track to do about 30 million revenue this year.

Cool. And I've recently been given an opportunity to, earn out some ownership in the company. So my biggest concern is that while we're in excellent financial position, we don't have any cash and we have good, strong cash reserves. We haven't developed a new product or made any real changes in about 15 years. And as a result, I'm starting with market share. And we don't really have much of a plan to innovate or evolve. So my question is, how can I honor the foundation that our owners have built while leading them towards the kind of change that will help us be competitive and grow into the future?

Hmm. Sounds like these guys are kind of resting. Yeah, that's... How old are they? One is 70 and one is early 60s. Yeah, okay. That makes a little more sense. Okay. And you're in your 50s? 45, yeah. Yeah, okay. All right.

Well, no guarantees, because it has to do with their state of mind. And if they're not open to it, they're just not open to it. We can't do anything about it. But by the way, you're rearranging the chairs on the Titanic. You know that. Right. Yeah. So if you don't fix this, your ownership share thingy and worth nothing because this thing's going down.

Because we live in the time in human history where we live in the most rapid rate of change ever known to man. Things change faster in every part of our lives, from medicine to technology, to technology, to transportation, to anything. The rate of change is faster at this moment than any other time. And so if you're not at the front edge of the change or right around the front edge of the change, you're about to get run over by a stampede of people that are. Sure.

And that's true in any business. So there's disruption. Count on it. And disruption is there's three possible positions. You cause the disruption wave, you ride the disruption wave, or you get crushed. by the disruption wave. And that's your only options.

You do not avoid disruption. It's there. And so you've got to be square up in the middle of it. And now, how do I get a 70-year-old who's riding out 15-year-old ideas and taking it to the bank right now to invest in future ideas? Oh, that's a tough one. But that's our reality that you're sitting in that's causing you to ask this question. Now, how would I approach them? All right, go get Seth Godin's book, Lynchpin.

He has some really good stuff about how to be a lynchpin, which means leading up versus leading down, which is what we were. This is the discussion you and our having. How do we lead up? We've got to lead these two gentlemen to a place that they're not ready to go to right now, but we want to show them, you know, how nice it is and how cool the water is in that valley. and we need to hook up the wagon and go to that valley. We need to lead them to a different place, okay? Have you got any written feedback from your customers that you lost? We do as we're bidding projects, and we, you know, there's customers that I talk to who haven't bought from us in a while, and they say, yeah, you know, I'm using so-and-so now, you know, price, performance is better.

Yeah, so that's kind of where we're getting. And we have these conversations, and we've talked about, hey, look, here's kind of what's going on. And they both are like, oh, yeah, I see what's doing. And, you know, I've brought different opportunities, different, you know, project designers or even design stuff myself. And it just more gets kind of set to the side. Yeah, yeah, you're right. We need to do that. But then we don't do anything.

And it's not something that I can force, obviously. No, no, you can't force it. your only option is persuasion. It depends on how imminent you think that this is going to affect you personally. In other words, if you think this thing is going to fold up like a Walmart tent in the next five years, if these chokers don't get their crap together, then you might as well light a fire. And let's just see if we can get some stuff burning, right? But if you think this is a slow burn and we got 20 years, we're just going to go down,

down, down, down for 20 years, and you're going to be okay for the next five or six, and you're okay with that. It's a hard pill to swallow, but you know, you take a less aggressive approach, depending on how far, how much of a panic there is about this. So in the words, you could go in there and say, guys, if it's an ultimatum, look, I'm your VP of sales. I'm telling you if we don't do some stuff, we're going to lose significant market share, and we're going to be gone before you're dead.

and I don't think that's honoring to you. You've worked too hard to get to here, and I really want to be a part of the solution and help you. Help me help you. And that's being a very aggressive stance. Then the less aggressive stance is, guys, I really am excited about trying this. Can you please authorize a project for me to try this part of this thing? And let's try a test market on this thing. And instead of it getting set to the side, you take it and run with it.

I get you. But get permission and go because I, you know, you guys have built such a wonderful, strong business here, but I lay a wake night. I worry about our future if we don't iterate, if we don't add some new ideas, some new innovation to this. And I don't think we have to change the whole thing. You built it too strong for that. But I do think we need to constantly be trying new things because that's how you got here.

And we haven't tried anything new in a long time. Would you authorize me to, in addition? to my existing workload, I'll take on this other project and give me, give me a, you know, a budget and a couple of a team to help try this new project. You got, what, 150 team members, right? So, I mean, give me a team of five and let me, let me work on this for 60 days and let's see what we can get. I don't know what you're in or exactly what you're facing, but something like that where you just go do it for them with their permission, but you're going to have to have their authorization to use the manpower and the money.

Sure. So you've got to at least get that level of persuasion. But it sounds like they think it might have validity, but they don't have the personal energy to screw with it because they're on the down, they're on the exit ramp. That's, I think that's it right there.

And it's the kind of almost treadmill like where there's several key areas that they are the only ones who do. And so they're just, they're working in the business instead of all the business kind of thing. Yeah. That's a lot for a $30 million dollar business. Wow. Yes, it is.

Yeah, that's really dangerous. But yeah, the more of that, hey, and you know, I'll bet you guys, I mean, someday you're going to want to not work here. And how's that going to get done if we don't figure out how to replace you? So let me work on that. I'm not trying to run you out the door, but let me work on getting some of that off your shoulders. So you can relax a little bit. Maybe you can take a vacation with your wife. Hello.

Sure. You know, and just talk to them that way and something like that. and, but, you know, you can kind of help them with moving off of the portions of this that are treadmill-esque and that, and really it's weird because you're actually combining it with, you know, the succession planning, you know, the final stage, right? You know, the legacy builder stage. So, I think you combine it with that and just, but you can always lead the conversation with, you've built such a wonderful business. I want to be the guy that helps you not only make it sustainable, but also make it continue to grow. And I think we've got to add a little bit of more spice to the gumbo to do that. And that's the only thing, but you can't make people that are unmotivated, especially an owner, suddenly become motivated.

and I have met people that grow it to a certain point and they have enough money and they just don't, they're not worried about it and they just don't care. And there's nothing you can't make people care. That's the problem with the whole thing. So it's a frustrating position. Leading up is probably one of the hardest kinds of leadership. But it is possible and I think just continue to have a general conversation and honoring them with the opening sentence on every time. Honor, honor, honor, question, honor, question, question. Question, honor, honor, question. And just pay them honor.

I'm not trying to push you out. Not trying to be disrespectful. I'm not trying to be belligerent. Just trying to be helpful. Help me to be helpful. Give me a couple tools for my tool belt. Help me to be helpful. And I think you'll get there eventually, Jeff.

You're a good man. I can tell by talking to you. Appreciate you being on the air with me today. Hey, folks, remember better a weary warrior than a quivering critic. This world needs more high-quality leaders. So take courage and lead. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Thanks for joining us on Entree Leadership.