EntreLeadership - How to Clarify Roles and Get Results with Jason Williams and Daniel Ramsey

Starting point is 00:00:05 On today's episode, we're getting into how to define roles and responsibilities on your team so that chaos and confusion are a thing of the past. Welcome to the Entree Leadership Podcast from the Ramsey Network, where we help you learn the proven principles for winning as a business leader. I'm your host, George Camel, and each week here on the podcast, I sit down with some of the best leadership minds out there to help you grow yourself, your team, and your profits. I want to say a quick thanks to all of you who have left us voicemails with feedback on these new segments we've been trying. Some of you are really enjoying them. Love the new segments. Keep them up. And some of you, not so much. I have to say, I thought I was going to like it, and I actually did not.

Starting point is 00:00:48 But either way, we want you to keep that feedback coming. We really appreciate it. All right, in our first segment today, Jason Williams will join me to share how role clarity creates focus and a clear picture of what it looks like to win in your role. And then our second segment, Daniel Ramsey, will join me to dig into how to create role clarity for you and your team members. So let's get into it. Our first segment is a teaching segment with Jason Williams, vice president of Entree leadership. Jason, thanks for joining me. Thanks, George. Nice to be here.

Starting point is 00:01:15 Always love having you on the podcast. You always bring some wisdom and some sports references. So I'm hoping for big things today. You'll get both. Absolutely. So let's talk about how KRA's key result areas create focus and winning in your role. Tell me about a job you had. You have some amazing experiences where maybe your role wasn't super clear. Yeah. So I've had multiple careers in this short amount of life. My first one was an athletic trainer. I was part of the sports medicine team that would take care of athletes.

Starting point is 00:01:41 And I did that in the NFL. And I worked in the NFL back in the days in the late 90s and early 2000s when concussions were a big deal. But we were really just learning about the science. And you can watch the documentaries and you understand that that was a big deal. But the NFL was telling us one thing and the coaching staff that we worked for, we're telling us something different. So when you have two leaders, this happens a lot to team members. When you have two leaders telling you competing things, it's really confusing for the team.

Starting point is 00:02:06 So the NFL was saying, take care of players in one way. Coaches were saying, hey, these people are really important for me to keep my job. I need them back on the field. And so it was really hard to decide which of those two you go with. You fast forward years into a business, and it happens all the time. I was a salesperson, and I did sales in a way where, you know, I had a quota. So in sales, the KRA is pretty easy, like sell some stuff. But then you have one leader that's saying sell this thing, and you have another leader saying sell this thing.

Starting point is 00:02:35 Well, that got a vested interest. Yeah. In either one. Both of them get compensated differently because of what you're selling. And so they're trying to get your attention. It becomes really confusing for the salesperson. What do I spend my time on? What does winning look like for me?

Starting point is 00:02:46 It's so confusing. It happens all the time. Yeah. That question of how do I know if I'm winning or losing and who do I have to make happy? Yes. Nobody wants that. And it causes frustration that causes some team members to just leave as part of a bigger problem of just poor leadership. So we don't want that on our teams.

Starting point is 00:03:03 We don't want this chaos and confusion, which is why at Entray leadership, we teach key results areas, KRA. So we're going to dive into what it takes to do that in later in this episode with Daniel Ramsey. But for you, tell me about a time your KRA helped you stay focused on the other flip side of this and not chase some idea that was not on goal. Yeah, the biggest thing that helps when a KRA is only good if the leader and the team member agree.

Starting point is 00:03:29 And so we talked about that a little earlier. If there's not agreement on what this winning looks like, then it's really a struggle. So the times when it's worked, it's when my leader. and myself are both aligned. And we have, we both understand and we both agree to this is what winning looks like. Because in those other situations, you have two leaders and they both think that their way is the right way, and I'm caught in the middle. So I'm also a three on the enneagram, which some people don't understand what that means. It means I'm a performer. I will just do stuff. You want to win and you want to look good doing it. Yes. And I don't feel things.

Starting point is 00:03:57 I just kind of go, if there's a problem, I'll just go do something. I'll spend time in activity and not necessarily like on figuring out what the right way to do this. I'm just going to activity wins. And so in my past roles, where I really get in trouble is I am like just doing things and not thinking about it and doing things and not thinking about it. And so I may get a roadblock in part of a key result area that I have. Like maybe my number one is is really something that I'm running into something big. And instead of actually spending the time to figure out and going back to my leader and saying, hey, I'm having a hard time with this or trying to figure it out on my own, I'll just go do something different. I struggle with that. And there are many people that struggle with

Starting point is 00:04:31 that. And so in the example I'm about to say at the situation where I was getting roadblocked and I was really struggling and my leader came to me as part of a regular review and said, hey, let's review your carry. Let's talk. And so we sat down and talked about it. And during that conversation, I was able to flush out like, what exactly am I supposed to be doing with this? This is an issue. It made me slow down and stop. And instead of saying, I can't do this, I'm just going to do a whole bunch of other stuff that my leader would not think is winning. It was because he prompted me and said, hey, how is it going? And I thought, oh, yeah, I have this issue. And together we're able to solve that. I was able to accomplish that, overcome that,

Starting point is 00:05:05 overcome that roadblock and just keep on going. And it made us both feel super accomplished with that. And I got complimented by that because I brought it to him even though he was the one that prompted it. So I thought it was good. Yeah. Well, it's a win-win because we both feel the momentum and excitement of we're winning and we're running towards the same thing in the same direction. And when you have that, it creates a great culture as well. And so talk to me about your KRA as a leader versus your teams and the connectivity between those. Yeah, that's a great question. So I have a leader. of us have leaders, even if you're a business owner, you have things that you, your leader might be your mission statement, might be the values that you set, and your KRA should be based on what winning looks like for wherever you are. My leader, Daniel Ramsey and I sit down and we talk

Starting point is 00:05:47 about my KRA. But Daniel also, he's the leader of our organization. He is a KRA, that he is designed with the help of other people around him. And so my KRA is directly aligned with what we're trying to accomplish as a business. And then I take parts of my KRA and I make sure that the people that report to me, also have their KRAs aligned with mine. Because if there's mal-alignment, they're not going to feel like they're winning because I'm going to be asking for something different, similar to my first example. And that's where it really becomes important for the leader and the team member to have agreement and making sure that their KRA lines up with my KRA so that their work ultimately influences my success. And I can help coach them and give them resources and things like

Starting point is 00:06:27 that. And that means that our business will ultimately win. Well, as we wrap here, I'm curious as to how you personally use KRAs. How often do you reference them? How often are you jumping in to help a team member look at it or tweak it? Yeah, that's great. We're dialing up that at Entree. I think, you know, the people that listen to this and they listen to Entree, I think they think we have it all dialed in all the time. And I can tell you, we don't. We are fixing things and improving things all the time. And we got into a rhythm where we're only reviewing KRAs once every six months. That is not enough. You must review your KRA with people more frequently than that. So we're in a rhythm right now where I spend 10 minutes of one

Starting point is 00:07:02 one-on-one per month with each team member that reports to me reviewing their KRA. It's 10 minutes out of 30 minutes, and that's just one of the 30-minute meetings a month. And we spend time looking at it. Hey, what has changed? Are you having any obstacles? Is there anything that we need to go over? Is there anything that we need to improve on this? Is anything that you need resources and things like that. So it happens a lot more frequently now. And what I see is when you do it in that short, frequent time frame, you make very little change, but you stay aligned. And that's what it's about. It's about just re-emphasizing to the team member. This is what winning looks like. You're still doing a great job. We're going to change this or I'm going to help you with this. It's the way that we've

Starting point is 00:07:40 seen success recently. That's huge. And that's twofold because, number one, your business is changing rapidly. And so you should be adjusting your KRA as the business changes. But number two, it makes the team member feel seen and heard and valued because the leader's going, hey, I want to make sure that You're working on the right things that, you know, fuel you that help us win as a business. And that makes them go, oh, this isn't just a status update check-in. They really want to dig in. So I love how you care for your team and the way that you lead. So great having you on the podcast.

Starting point is 00:08:10 Thanks, Jason. Thanks, George. All right, it's your turn. What did you think of that teaching segment? Did you like it or not? You can call and leave us a voicemail at 844-944-1070. If you'd rather email us, we've got a link to that email address in the show notes. All right, so if you want to create KRAs for you and your team that are output oriented that create ownership,

Starting point is 00:08:31 you've got to go watch our course on this on roll clarity inside of Entree Leadership Elite. So watch each lesson, do the action items, and very soon, chaos will become a thing of the past. And what's really cool is you can get access to it right now for free for 30 days. Go to Entreeleadership.com slash Elite or click the link in the show notes. So now that we know how KRAs help us stay focused and not chase ideas that aren't on goal, how do you create your own? Well, up next, we're going to talk about how to create role clarity for you and your team members. All right, joining me now is Daniel Ramsey, Executive Vice President of Entry Leadership. And we're talking about how to create role clarity for your team members. Daniel, welcome back.

Starting point is 00:09:15 Thanks for having me. You're a regular now, when we love it. Always bringing the wisdom. I appreciate that. So there are none more passionate about key results areas than you. And it all comes down to role clarity. you are a man who loves clarity because you've seen the results of it. So why is role clarity so crucial for success? You know, for me personally, it is something that when I haven't had it, it's made me just not be productive. It's made me stressed. It's made me confused. It's made me wander. And when I do have clarity, I feel like I get things done. I move faster. I get results. I tend to not annoy people as much or people aren't bothered by me. And so role clarity for me is something that's very important. For me, what I've identified is when you have clarity, clarity creates focus, and then focus creates results.

Starting point is 00:10:03 And so that's what I try to do for myself and for my team. That's huge. And, you know, when we talk about money around here, we say, do a budget, on paper, on purpose. And the way we do that in the business world for our team is through key results areas, on paper, on purpose. So what are some of the guardrails for an effective KRA? Because this isn't just write down what you think you're – it's not what you'd find on a job posting. That's right. That's right. Yeah, job posting is something different. Job posting is going to be really simple. It's something to attract a candidate. A CRA is going to be a one-sheet document. And so from a guardrails perspective, that's the first thing. It should be one sheet. Now, I've seen a lot of leaders, oh my gosh, it is nuts. I've seen a lot of leaders here internally create these beautifully crazy five-page documents on describing someone's role and the expectations and all the things that they should ever do and when they go to the bathroom, etc. And That's just not necessary.

Starting point is 00:10:57 And it's also not only as a waste of time, but it's confusing. You can't memorize. You can't remember and have your head wrapped around five pages. So keep it to one page. And to that note, keep it simple, you know. Keep it something that they can remember and acknowledge and hold on to. And they can be able to recite back to you at a glance. And so speak in tweets here.

Starting point is 00:11:18 That's right. Gravity is the soul of wit. Don't make it overwhelming. It's got to be something you can reference easily. Exactly. Exactly. another guardrail, I'd say, is make it realistic. There's this idealistic, like, thing that people do when they want to create a job, or you imagine yourself being this, this, and that. And on paper, really make it something that can be done by one person in a 40-hour work week. If that's not possible, then that's not realistic. You probably have two jobs. Or you might identify, hey, this may not be a full-time job. And so that's a really good clarity you have on the front end before you hire someone to go ahead and create this document. Last thing, to know is that it's going to change over time. And so you're not trying to create something

Starting point is 00:11:58 concrete that will never be updated. And so if you're making it on the front end knowing that, hey, my goal is for this thing to last six months, maybe a year, that would be a win for this document, just because the world changes, team members grow, you delegate new things to people, new things come to your business, and you need to update their roles accordingly. So we talk about creating this for your team, but it starts with the leader. So the leader has to start by creating this for themselves. How does that work? How do you self-assess that? Man, and that's so hard to do, right? It's so hard to look yourself in the mirror and get on paper and write down what you're responsible for. But doing a carry for yourself is a really, really good

Starting point is 00:12:38 exercise because it helps you stay focused. Then once you know how to do it for yourself, it's that much easier for you to apply that to your team and to be able to create it for your team. And so I have to check my own occasionally and really look at it and say, hey, is this up to date? Does this still reflect what's most important for me bringing value to the business. And so I obviously, I get to work with my leader Dave on my KRA occasionally. But if you're a business owner, if you're a leader at the top, start with yourself. Lead yourself first, and then you can lead your team well. And if you make a list of here's what I'm actually doing, here's an audit of my current life versus here's what I'm saying winning looks like for me to grow, for me to have impact.

Starting point is 00:13:17 Generally, there's going to be a big gap. There's going to be a discrepancy where you look down and go, oh, I'm not doing half the things I should be doing if this is what winning looks like. And that causes you to make changes, right? Exactly. I mean, you look back at your week and you only remember the stuff that was fun, exciting, or hard. You don't remember the mundane things in between that might be really important. Or you don't remember the things that took up a lot of your time that maybe shouldn't have, or all the fires. You know, if you're a leader, I've been through this in many seasons where you're running from fire to fire to fire, man, you don't have control of your day. Your day has control of you. And so a KRA is a way to check yourself and to know before you get lost in the

Starting point is 00:13:54 day of putting out fires, this is what I need to be focused on. So when a fire does pop up, you can textually say, does this make sense for me to work on? Or do I need to set this aside or delegate this as someone else? Is this my responsibility or is it someone else's responsibility? So if your KRA has put out fires and you're not an actual firefighter, we've got to make some changes. Otherwise, we're not going to get anywhere at the end of the year and wonder what happened. Exactly. That's so good. So let's talk about the process you go through for creating a KRA for a new team member.

Starting point is 00:14:25 We talked about this is not a job posting, but let's say you just hired a new team member and you want this role clarity for them so that they can win, you can win. It's a win-win. How do you sit down and do that with them? Yeah, so for the sake of time, I'm going to run through this really quick. It's a really simple process, but it takes a little bit of time. The first step is to write your name, your title, and then we do it. This is like when you get 10 points on the exam, just.

Starting point is 00:14:48 forgetting your name on the paper. Yep, that's right. And then quick win. The other part of that is we just start with a summary sentence of what the role does. And so at the very top of the page, we have your name, we have your title, and we have one sentence summary of, hey, George, this is your role, this is what you do. This is ultimately what you're responsible for. So if someone asks you, hey, what do you do, you're able to tell them in this simple sentence of, this is what I do. And so as an example, you know, if you're the owner of a business, it might be, hey, my role is responsible for the overall impact of my company and that it has it on its customers. Or another example might be, my role is responsible for creating, for driving towards our mission,

Starting point is 00:15:28 creating vision, and driving strategies to reach that. That may just be the summary. It might be that easy. So it's okay to be super simple. You want it to be for that first sentence. That's right. You know, if you have a sales leader, an example might be, my role is responsible for motivating the sales team and keeping them on track with our sales goals. Some version of that. That's right. it's simple. Don't spend too much time. Every time I sit down to start a new KRA, I always have riders block and it takes me like 10 minutes to get in the groove. Just push through that and just start writing some things out and then start editing it down. So the next step of the process is going to be to identify your key result areas. These are the key areas that you are driving forward that are

Starting point is 00:16:06 part of your role. I'm going to recommend that there's only going to be two to four of those for each person. If you're getting 5, 6, 7, that's too many. That's too much. You need to break it down. summarize it, make it clear and simple. And so examples of that might be maintain a relationship with clients, maintain quality control, grow and develop your direct reports. It might be manage the financials of the business. It might be creating and establishing our strategy. Anything of that nature, just a quick few words that capture the key areas. So once you have that, that's kind of your outline of your carry. You have the different key areas in your role. Then from there, the next part of the process is you're going to write out one sentence statement.

Starting point is 00:16:51 That's a summary of this. It says, what does winning look like? And so you write one sentence that says, if you're winning in that key result area, it would be winning in this way. So, for example, if one of your key result areas is drive the business forward, it might say the team has strong momentum towards our vision and our goals. Or it might be another one of saying, if the key result is maximize the team, it might be, Hit our sales goals on a consistent basis because our sales team is engaged and focused on creating value for our customers and closing new deals. So just a one sentence summary of what the world would look like if you are winning. Here's the result if we do this right.

Starting point is 00:17:30 Exactly. Simple. Exactly. The next step is going to be writing out a list of bullet points of what it's going to take to make that area successful. So you just wrote out a statement saying what winning looks like. Now you're going to write a series of bullet points that describe the activities or action. you need to take to make that statement come true. So it might be, hey, you need to make 100 calls a day, or, hey, you need to follow up with your team and do this. Hey, you need to actively be driving this.

Starting point is 00:18:00 Whatever that may be. What are the habits and the actions you need to take? And this is simple. Do three, four, five bullet points. Don't do a huge, crazy long list. So all that together, you're going to have just a handful of key areas, each of those key areas. You have those key is going to have a statement that says what winning looks like. And then under that, you're going to have a few bullet points that describe the actions you need to do to win in that area. The very last step is at the bottom. And at the bottom of the page, all you're going to do is sit down with your team member

Starting point is 00:18:31 and talk them through it, make sure they understand it, and then have them sign it. And so signing that is a written acknowledgement that, hey, I understand this, I'm for this, I'm on board with this, and I agree to stay accountable to this. And so there's something really powerful about putting your signature on it. You take ownership. Yeah, that's right. There's something deeper that happens there when you sign it. But once you've created this, what is the functionality of it?

Starting point is 00:19:03 I mean, we're not just going to frame it and be happy. Yay, we did it. How do you put this into practice and use it as a reference point with your team? If you don't regularly check in on your KRA, it's going to rust. Over time, it falls apart. things change in your business, things change with the team member, and you need to be updating it regularly. So one way to do that is I, for myself, during our one-on-ones, I use this as one of the ways I lead my one-on-ones, is I don't use it every time or the whole meeting, but I'll have the KRA up on my computer

Starting point is 00:19:33 while I'm having my one-on-one with a team member, and I'll look through some of these areas, and I'll ask for updates, and I'll hold them accountable. Hey, remember, George, we said that you were going to make 100 calls a day. I see on here on the sales report that you've been making more like, 60, what's going on? How can I help you? Is that an unrealistic expectation? You know, being able to have those kind of conversations helps you hold people accountable and keeps them on task for what you agreed on with them. So give me a specific example, a story, a time that your KRA helped you stay on task instead of kind of getting sidetracked with rabbit trails and crazy ideas or fires of the day.

Starting point is 00:20:11 You know, I'm the kind of guy that when I'm driving into work, there are often things that creep into my mind, whether it's a new idea or something I'm upset about and frustrated by and I want to go tackle this problem. And, man, George, I can think of a few times in particular where I've came into the office. I've pulled a few key people together. I'm like, hey, guys, we're going to do this or we need to address this or I got this new big idea. Man, I've had a few times. The good leaders I have on my team have done a good job. I look him in the eye and saying, hey, hey, Daniel, while that's important, I don't think that's the best use of your time. or our time or, hey, that isn't really part of what we agreed on was the best part of your role.

Starting point is 00:20:51 And so I have to do that with my team sometimes. But, man, when they've helped hold me accountable to my KRA, that's powerful. That's when I know that they know what I do most to maximize the business. And so by me sharing my KERA with my team, it helps them hold me accountable. And that's kept me from chasing something shiny over here or really doing this other thing. Sometimes those are important. And sometimes I do come into work and I have a good idea or I have a problem, but a KRA helps me check myself. And it helps me say, all right, this may not be my responsibility to handle today.

Starting point is 00:21:26 I'm going to hand this to someone else. I'm going to give this to this person and let them run with it. It reminds me the quote, not my monkey, not my circus. And sometimes as a leader, you've got to remind yourself because leaders love solving problems. And it's one of the reasons they've gotten into business. It's one of the reasons they're successful is they're great problem solvers. And so they just want to find the problems and they're good at until they jump into the mess. But sometimes the best thing you can do is empower your team and help them solve it and help delegate instead of taking it all on yourself, becoming a bottleneck and getting distracted from your KRA, from what you are supposed to do to move the business forward.

Starting point is 00:22:01 Exactly. Exactly. So one part of the KRA for me is helping clear blockers for my team. When my team comes to me with an issue, I want to help them clear it. Now, I have to use discernment because oftentimes they come in with problems that may not be my responsibility to solve. It may be me to help coach them to go solve it themselves. Other times it is my responsibility to go solve. It's something outside their control that I could actually have an impact on. And so, you know, although clearing blockers is part of my carry, I have to use discernment of, hey, what does that actually look like real time, and where does it apply, how does it apply, and how do I use wisdom in that? So you've helped our own leadership team create more effective KRAs.

Starting point is 00:22:42 What are some of the biggest mistakes you've seen leaders make when it comes to this whole process? Man, gosh, probably one of the biggest things that I've seen people do is set it and forget it. They create the KRA, they check the box, and then they don't actually use it. So it's this one-time document, and man, when you do that, you lose credibility with your team. Because you say you're intentional, you say, hey, I'm going to create this role clarity for you. you create it and then you don't actually hold them accountable to it or you don't actually use it to manage them or to talk to them or to coach them. And yeah, not only does that take away your credibility as a leader, but it also is just an ineffective and it was a waste of time on the front end.

Starting point is 00:23:23 And so if you're going to do something, if you're going to commit to creating role clarity for your team, follow through and actually stick with it. And that's going to mean you need to update it occasionally like we talked about. And role clarity is frustrating because you wish that you could, create it once and it was done, but that's just not how we work as people, as humans. And so you're going to have to continue to polish it. But if you do a good job on the front end, it's that much easier to maintain long term. And so, you know, it's like a good yard. If you spend the time fertilizing it and seeding it properly, you're not going to spend all spring long trying to cover up patches and get new grass to grow or pick up weeds or stuff like that.

Starting point is 00:24:04 if you really spend the time on the front end, maintaining it's a lot easier on the back end. It reminds me of the gym membership. It feels good to get one, but if you don't use it, nothing happens, and it was a waste of time and money. And so make sure that you're using this effectively

Starting point is 00:24:17 for yourself, for your team. This is so huge. And like you mentioned earlier, don't make it overwhelming. Don't make it a five-page novel that no one can understand. No one's going to reference back to. Keep it simple.

Starting point is 00:24:28 That's the best way to have it be put on the shelf and never used is if you overcomplicated. Love it. if you're not doing this today, you're not going to win in business long term. Your team's going to be frustrated because of that lack of clarity. No one knows what winning looks like. We're just throwing darts at the board and putting in our 40 hours a week.

Starting point is 00:24:44 We want to see every single business leader win out there. Well, Daniel, always love having you on the podcast. Thanks for being with us. Thanks, George. Appreciate it. All right, good stuff there. If you enjoyed today's episode of this show, make sure to follow, subscribe, and give us a five-star review wherever you're listening. And share this episode with someone that needs to hear it, your team, your friends, on social media, and make sure to follow us on social at Entree Leadership.

Starting point is 00:25:07 If you like this show, Entree Leadership, you're going to love the Ken Coleman Show, another show on the Ramsey Network. Make sure you check that out wherever you listen to podcasts. Until next time, keep learning and keep leading.

EntreLeadership - How to Clarify Roles and Get Results with Jason Williams and Daniel Ramsey

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