EntreLeadership - How to Develop a Promotable Team with Ken Coleman

Episode Date: August 2, 2021

How much is turnover costing your business? We bet you’re spending a lot more than you'd like. The problem is, most businesses hire based only on skills. They forget to look at a person's talent, passion and mission. In this episode of The EntreLeadership Podcast, we interview bestselling author Ken Coleman. He explains how you can help your team discover the stuff that gives them the juice. Then George Kamel sits down with Ramsey Solutions Chief Creative Officer Luke LeFevre. He shares an incredible story of how he helped his former assistant find the right seat on the bus and the plan he followed to navigate that conversation.   The EntreLeadership Podcast Preorder Ken Coleman’s brand-new book, From Paycheck to Purpose. Learn more about EntreLeadership Summit Recent episode: Why People Are Leaving Your Company with Shawn Davis Download The EntreLeader's Guide to Hiring Schedule a call with Tim, the Producer.   Learn more about the offers from our EntreLeadership Partners: BELAY | Gravy | Hite Digital Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You've probably heard Jim Collins talk about getting the right people on the bus, the right people in the right seats, and the wrong people off of the bus. So what do you do when you have a team member who's a culture fit, but not in the right seat? From the Ramsey Network, this is the Entree Leadership podcast, where we help business leaders grow themselves, their teams, and their profits. I'm your host, George Camel, and in today's episode, we're talking about finding great talent and getting them in the right seat, which connects with our business driver of people.

Our first guest is Ken Coleman. He's a number one bestselling author with a new book out called From Paycheck to Purpose, The Clear Path Doing Work You Love. He's one of our Ramsey personalities and host of the nationally syndicated radio show, the Ken Coleman Show, where he helps callers discover what they do best so that they can do work they love and produce the results that matter most to them. In our second interview, I sat down with Ramsey leader, Luke Lefevre, on how to get a team member in the right seat, and he shares a story of how he did exactly that. Up first, our conversation with Ken. He gave a great talk at Entree Leadership Summit this year about how your company is only as good as its people.

So we wanted to simplify what is probably one of the most complex problems that leaders and companies deal with. And that's talent. All right. So the idea here is that a company is only as good as his talent. I mean, you can have great culture, you can have wonderful values on the cafeteria wall. You can have a really good product or a service. service. But the reality is, is if you are serious and intentional about becoming great as a leader, as a leader of an organization and an organization being great, it's going to come down to talent.

And so what we wanted to do is that we know from all kinds of data that the number one cost, negative cost to a company is turnover, talent turnover. Okay. And so what we did was we talked on the secret to attracting, acquiring, and retaining, talent. And the secret is actually knowing exactly who you want in the position you're hiring for company-wide. So whether you're running a plumbing company, electrician firm, whatever, if it's 20 people or 2,000 people, if there's intentionality on who you're hiring, why you're hiring, so you're trying to match up, hey, this is the ideal candidate, the ideal employee for this particular role. And if we know that on the front end and we actually

interview for it, we got a much better chance of getting the right person on the right seat of the bus right away. So we've all heard that analogy. Jim Collins has made it famous. It's the number one frustration. It's the number one cost because of the turnover, the time and the money. And so that was the purpose of the talk. That's what I talked about. And I broke it down. And it's a really simple formula. So when it comes to acquiring that talent, do people have the clarity you found, do leaders out there actually know what they want? Sometimes, but very rarely. I mean, what they kind of know is, well, we want someone with this set of skills and we want someone with this experience and, oh, we need this degree. That's largely the preparation they kind of put into, okay, that's what we're

looking for. Instead of really breaking it down, and as I teach in my core content helping men and women figure out what they were born to do, and leaders lead in the right place, it's looking at talent, soft skills, hard skills. What talent does this position require? for that person to win. Not, well, I think they need to, no. I mean, these are the non-negotiable skills that they've got to have. Then we look at passion as I define work you love. So what type of work does this position, let's just take an admin assistant position,

what kind of work does a person need to really love to crush this? I mean, if they don't love scheduling and organizing and details and all kinds of planning and all kinds of process type work. If they don't love that, we know that person is going to be miserable inside of two days. And then finally, what are the results of their work that they get real joy out of seeing? There's a value connection.

And so that's mission. So an admin assistant needs to be pretty fired up about the result of service and the result of efficiency and order. Just kind of giving you some bucket things. So when we teach that, we teach it so that as you as a leader, you go, wait a second, they got to have this talent, they got to have this passion, and they got to be missional in these areas if they're going to work in this role.

So if we know that on the front end, when it comes time to interview them, we have a lot less chance of getting BSed and somebody faking their way into the situation, because many times you have somebody who has the talent for it, and we go, oh, they got the talent. We can see it. The experience is there as well, but they don't have a passion for it. We wonder why they leave a six months in. So, you know, I mean, I can go on and on and on and on about this, But that's the key to making sure that as a leader and as an organization, we have the right talent.

So talent's not enough. You've got to love the work and you got to love the results of the work. Or you won't stay engaged. Yeah. And that's a big pain point for the leaders out there, just hiring in general. It's like, how do I get people who care, people who are really good at what they do, people who are on a mission every single day? They're out there. Yeah.

So it can be hard to get through the stack of resumes. It really is. So I just broke down talent, passion, mission. and that's what I taught at Summit. And so the reason I taught that was then to give the leader's context. So now if we know those three things, talent passion mission, what's non-negotiable, now we start to go, okay, that's how we're going to recruit. That's how we're going to post jobs.

And so the people that are really attracted to it are definitely going to come after it. But if we don't do that specifically in the recruiting process or in the job description, you're going to get Johnny come lately. anybody. It's just kind of like, okay, yeah, sure, it's a job. I got the talent. Well, it's all about the narrative. So that's that first piece of attracting is ring the dinner bell and the people that are really hungry for that kind of work are going to show up. And that's how you start. So that we first go, okay, we're going to be more specific and see if somebody's really into this work. You've got to do that or else you don't know. And it comes down to clarity like you're talking about.

Crystal clear. If you don't take time to get that clarity to figure out what are those things that we're actually looking for, what would make this a home run? You're never going to get there. And I love your new book, Paycheck to Purpose. You walk people through this seven-step clear path. And the first step is get clear. So we just really have broken down the way a person gets clear or the way a leader gets clear. Same situation.

So we have leaders right now that are pretty frustrated that are listening to this. And they know they love to lead. They want to lead, but I'm really frustrated. Step back and get clear for a second. What's your leadership sweet spot? What are you as a leader? really good at. That's talent. What type of work in your day as a leader do you love to do? Fun little exercise here. Don't just look at what you love. Once you write down the stuff that you

love to do as a leader, also look at the stuff that sucks the life out of you and just do a quick little analysis. How much am I day? How much of my week am I dealing with stuff that's soul-sucking as opposed to soul lifting? Oh, it may be hard, but you better do it. Yeah. And then the last piece again, what are the results as a leader that you most want to create? See, some leaders, say, they want to drive achievement, right? Numbers. Some leaders, they just all about service. So it's okay. It's okay if achievements your jam. Your missional, that's your result that drives you. That's the result that really fires you up. It's okay if it's achievement. It's okay if it's service. It's okay if it's order and efficiency. Some leaders, you know, I'm not about the service piece as much.

I'm about order and efficiency. Those are your COOs, right? And so, you know that's really important so the get clear is that first stage you say hey what am i supposed to do what's my purpose and work it's so freeing so free got to do it do you think there's a lot of leaders out there who are kind of out of balance with that leadership sweet spot where there's no question there's no question i mean it runs the gamut you can have leaders that are 90 10 that are 90% doing stuff outside their sweet spot now let's just park here for a second because i can hear the listener. I've did this for many years. I know what people are thinking. They're going, Ken, it's three people. It's me, my wife, and Uncle Larry. All right? We're trying to replace Uncle

Larry. But right now Uncle Larry's the only guy that's how to do it. And I got to do 50 things that suck the soul out of me because it's just three of us. I get that. Can't delegate it right now. That's a season. That's a season. Yeah. So we're talking about optimal. And so nothing's optimal when we're starting out and when we're young and we're new. We're going to grow into that. So right now you're the chief everything officer. So don't feel bad. But understand this is a season. But I'm talking about eventually where you want to get to, whether you've got three people, 30 people, or 3,000 people,

you want to get to the point where you're spending about 80% of your day doing stuff that you're really good at as a leader, doing work you love to do as a leader, and creating results that you want to create as a leader. That's the goal. That's the ideal. And you can get there. So I do want to point that out.

Don't get all discouraged and don't go, well, that'll make sense, Ken. I get it, Uncle Larry. You'll get it if you lean in a little bit longer. Yeah. And getting that. clarity of making that list and going, here's what I love to do, here's what I hate to do. How do we start to move into that other category? And as we grow, we go, hey, we've got some money to hire someone now. Oh, I can offload a lot of this stuff. Yeah, quick thing on that.

That's really good question. So as you begin to grow and as you begin to say, okay, I need to get in my leadership sweet spot because we are growing. We've got the resources. So what we want to do is we want to go, okay, the stuff that really sucks a soul out of me, okay, either I'm not good at it. That's the talent bucket. I don't love to do it. That's the passion bucket. I could care less about the results. That's the mission bucket. So we begin to see those things that are soul-sucking. All right. So we now look at that, we go, cool, we can delegate it. We can hire for it, somebody new, so delegated somebody already there, hire for it, somebody new, or eliminate it. Get rid of it. That's an interesting option. Yeah, it might not be an option, but many times

you might be surprised. Well, wait a second. Why am I doing this? I don't think that's going to be a high percentage, but I wanted to throw it out as an option because I'm a man of the people and serve everybody. So one more time, I got to tell you, this is really good. Delegate it, hire for it, eliminate it. Simple. Yeah. That brings me a lot of clarity right there. So we're talking about the leadership sweet spot, and I want to move into the team side.

Let's flip this thing now and go, how can leaders help their team be in their sweet spot? Because that can be the biggest pain point out there and the biggest frustration, and the team's not going to get the results if they're not in their sweet spot. So how can the leaders start to develop their people in that way? Well, so we've got to go back to the construct. So if you've done your homework on the front end leader and you go, okay, in this administrative assistant position, these are the non-negotiable talents. They've got to be really good at this. And this is the work they've got to love.

And these are the results they've got to really get the juice about creating. Then we're starting to match it up. And we're going, oh, that's why Fred is not really rocking it. Fred's actually got the talent. But when I actually get to know Fred and I ask him, what work do you really love, Fred? if I as a leader have the guts and the intentionality to sit down with Fred and go, Fred, here's what I want you to do. I want you to carry around a notepad and a pencil this week. And Friday afternoon, I want you to turn it in on my desk.

And I want you to have one sheet of paper lying down the middle lifts me, right? Or I love it or I love it. I don't care. Okay. And I want you to go through your day. And every time you're doing something, you go, oh, well, I love this. Write it on the love it side. If you hate it, write it on the loathe side, okay?

Or whatever. I don't care what your adjectives are. But it's either it gives you the juice or it sucks the life out of you. Make a list all week long. And let's just see what Fred comes back with and say, Fred, you're not going to get in trouble. There are no wrong answers here. But I want to hear from you of what you're doing now. What do you love?

What do you like? What are you just like? And what do you hate? I don't care. However you want to do it, leaders, do that. It would really be soul-freeing for the employee to kind of go, hey, my leader's actually not taking this against me. It's a wide-open thing.

It's free. I'm not going to get in trouble. But if you can get somebody to honestly do that and let them know you're not in trouble at all, I just want to get a sense we're doing this with everybody. Do with your whole team. You might be surprised at what you find out. So now you're kind of looking at this is the passion exercise. They're letting you know what they love.

Yeah. So now you match it up with a talent. I hope you didn't hire somebody who doesn't have the talent. I'm assuming you've hired somebody that has a talent to do. job. Real passionate. But if somebody you know you hired has the talent, but they're just, they don't seem motivated. Let me just break this down.

The root word of motivated is motive. It's your why. So it's either passion. I either love it or I don't, the work or mission. I care deeply about that result. That I'm creating results. I either care deeply or I could care less. Yeah.

Man, that's fascinating. And I've seen this play out. You know, here at Ramsey, where people have moved around. But it can be hard if you're in the team member seat for me to go to my leader and go, hey, I like what I do. I don't love it. I think there's something over there. How can the team member have a tactful conversation with the leader without spooking the leader? And they go, oh, we got to get rid of this guy.

Yeah, you know, there's no magical formula here other than you need to be humble and kind of come at this like not. I've just discovered, you know, the formula of Colfusion, you know, and now I'm letting you in on it. I mean, this is super simple stuff. So you're going to have to go to your leader and you're going to have to say, hey, I've kind of been doing some self-awareness stuff. Hey, I love this organization. I want to be here. I happen to be really good at this thing, but I now realize that I love more of this work.

So I've been here in sales, but I actually love the customer service side. You know, you've got to give the flip. So if you do this work, you can be tactful because you're going to give the leader a full picture. You're not going to go, I don't like what I do. You know what I mean? mean. Please don't do that. Yeah. And you just got to shove it across the table. Yeah. No, you're going to go, hey, here's, I've done some self-reflection.

I've done some, I'm being aware. I think this is true of me. Do you agree? Let them have some input into it. Yeah. A healthy leader is going to go, wow, this is really interesting. A healthy leader is going to go, this is going to go, this is going to go to your desk. A healthy leader is going to go, this is good. Thank you for doing this. Well, I'll tell you, here's a deal. We need you in this position right now. But, yeah, I mean, an unhealthy leader that's going to go, oh, yeah, I don't know what any of that means. This doesn't matter. You're going to dismiss you. Yeah. So that's how you would handle it internally to a leader. As you're showing, this is all about, I want to add value the organization. This isn't about a race. This isn't about me, just for me. This is, hey, I want to continue add value. And I'm learning about myself and I'm seeing

something over here. And when you can give them this formula, they may have never heard a Ken Coleman at all. They don't need to. It makes sense. Hey, I'm at my most valuable if I use what I do best to do work I love to produce results here that matter deeply to me. They're going to go, that makes good sense. If they don't, they're an imbecile. Now back to the leader, when you do this, as I was talking about earlier, and you know this about each person, then you've got to determine can I develop that. Talent, you can, if they've got the raw talent, you can develop the skill. So if they're missing some skills and they've got the raw talent, great news leader, you can develop them. Training course, some mentoring, maybe a college.

course, whatever, you can develop that. If they don't love the work, you cannot develop passion. That's good. I know. That's why I came back to it. That'll preach. So you can't develop passion. They either love it or they don't.

I can like something and you can't make me love it. Yeah. Let me give an example, George. Give me a food. You're a very particular guy. Very picky. Yeah. Give me a food that you would say, I like.

Not love, but you like it. Salmon. Salmon. Salmon. You like salmon. salmon. Yeah. There's no way that I can make you love salmon. I just don't believe I can make you love it because you've already had enough salmon in your life to determine I like a good piece of salmon. But give me something that you love. Give me an entree that you go, oh, dude, if you put that on my head,

my tongue beats my brain's out trying to get to it. I'll take a ribby. A ribby. All right. Why do you love ribby, George? It's the flavor. It's the texture. Why don't you love salmon? It's the texture. What if I put some cinnamon on it, maybe? What about a little squeeze of limb in here or there? Okay. Is there anything I can do, George, to make you love salmon? No. Probably not.

No. All right. I went out on a limb with that example, but I think it holds up. Yeah. I can tell you this, you can't make someone love work if they don't actually really love the work. Yeah. They got to love it. They can't like it, but love, I don't think you do that.

And then mission results, that I think you can shed light to it. But there are six, I'm going to give you some stuff from this assessment that we're developing. there are six missional drivers that every human being has. So it comes from intrinsic motivation. All right? Extrinsic motivation, George, is like what I do with my kids.

Hey, if you don't clean your room, I'm taking your phone away. There's consequences. There's consequences. Or, hey, if you get an A, I'm going to give you $100. Reward. That's right.

So reward or punishment? That's an extrinsic motivator. Intrinsic means I don't need threat, nor do I need a carrot stick in front of me. I do it because I want to. So very simply put, you've got creation, like people that some people are just, they want to do work in order to create. That's their driver.

It's their number one driver, creation. Another one is influence. That's mine. I want to. I work to help change lives. That's my jam. I want to make sure that when I'm doing something at work, there's an opportunity for somebody to get better.

Okay. So you got creation, you got influence. You've got service. Some people are all about service. Other people are about order, like efficiency and order. You know, and so when you start looking at all that, and you go, what's my driver? What really drives me? Well, when you can get to somebody and you go, you really figure that out, you can shed light on that.

But again, you can't switch that. You can't go, well, George is really all about service. But I'm going to try to turn him into an achievement guy. That's the same. I didn't mention the sixth one. Achievement. Like scoreboard guys, sales guys. Yes.

They want to see numbers and growth. Guys that come into companies and turn around, turn around artists, they're all about, man, we're going to change. Achievement. So I can't take someone who's driven naturally by service and train them to be an achievement person. I can't. But I can shed light on, you love serving. You're in a role right now where your missional result of this role is efficiency and order, but I think it's service. Here's why I think it's service. You're always doing this and you shed light on and they go, oh.

I like service. I mean, I like efficiency in order, but I love serving people. And that's the person that could go from an operations position to a customer service role. You shed light on it. You didn't change it. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I think it takes a level of, you know, foresight from the leader to actually be looking out. Well, you've got to dig, man. And seeing that. And somebody is their heads down working on whatever the fires in front of them. They don't are not taking the time to look up and go, hey, where's my team at? Hey, I saw Johnny over here. He's doing this over here. I didn't know he was good at that. That's the key point. In order to do this, you've got to actually know your people. And I don't mean like, yeah, I know George. I know his wife Whitney. I know he's got a great little dog. That's not knowing you. Yeah. I got to know what makes your eyes dance. You know, Benjamin Zander, one of our speakers of some of a couple years. I mean, you got to dig in on this stuff. So I've given you leaders and those of you that are individuals aren't leading yet. You want to move up. This is the framework. When you're clear on who you are and what lights you up, passion and mission. Remember, talent. A tool. Think of your top talents as premium tools to do the work. Passion and mission, work I love, results that I really want to produce. That's the game changer. Yeah. And, you know, as we're talking about this, I think of my own story here at Ramsey. You know, I've been here eight years now. I've had five or six jobs here. And you go, hey,

he's been on the right bus the whole time, but he's been in a few wrong seats. He's had a few of the results were skewed. I'm going to flip it on you. Okay. Okay. I'm taken over. So in your eight years, give me a position where it was talent only. You definitely were good at it. It was in your top talents, but you didn't love the work. You maybe liked it, but you didn't love it.

And the missional results, you're kind of like, it's a little off for me. Yeah, I started full-time as an email marketing coordinator. Two and a half years, I did that. Talent? And I was good at it.

I was great at it. Okay. Did you love it? Did you love the work? No. So you had the talent for it. You were really good at it. You didn't love the work?

No? No. Yeah. Didn't create a result that really fired you up. You could see value in it. Yes, I saw the value. I love this place and the people

and the teams I got to work with. But sitting at the laptop all day sitting in code was not my sweet spot. Yeah. Yeah. So as you're evolving now, would you say influence working to influence people?

Creation and influence service. Those are really, I feel like those are my top. There's no question. No question about it. It's really interesting. Did you have another job where you were like same kind of situation? Did you move to a couple

where it was talent only? had the talent off the charts. It was social media. I kept getting closer. And as I kept moving from seat to seat, I kept getting closer. And it took the leaders here, recognizing the talent and went,

hey, I saw him light up when he was on stage. Well, I was going to ask. So I thought, to myself, watching you, I was there. I mean, you replaced me in several roles. When you finally got into that host role, that was sweet spot where you were using what you do best, you're great communicator. You connect with an audience.

You got all I could go down the list. I don't make you feel too good. about yourself. But you're using your talent to do work you love to create a result that you really cared deeply about. It was alive. And it took leaders who cared, who saw the opportunity, and you were a great mentor in that. So having great mentors who came alongside me to help me get to that next level, which brings us to this part, which is really interesting, get promoted. Yeah. That's one of the keys on your seven steps. Stage five of the seven stages. Yeah. So this is where most people spend their professional career, right? So picture this stage is,

So get started to stage four. So kind of quick review, get clear, stage one, get qualified, stage two, get connected, stage three, get started stage four. So I get the opportunity, right? So whether I'm switching careers or I'm starting out from college or whatever, I'm getting started. So now I'm on the ladder. Well, getting promoted is climbing up the ladder. So think about how much time we all spend getting promoted. I mean, you did eight jobs.

It's a lot. It's a lot, right? So that's very normal. So for those people that are listening going, man, I want to move up. I want more. Okay. Understand this is this. stage, you're going to spend most of your professional career because you don't stop climbing.

I mean, it's very rare that somebody goes, all right, I'm going to buy Ken's book from paycheck to purpose. And I'm in my dream job six weeks later. That's just not going to happen. Yeah. It's not the book for you if that's what you're looking for. So if we spend most of our time there, then that means there are some very clear and intentional actions we've got to repeat.

So there's three things that you have to do, five things you've got to be. You want me to break that down for you? Yeah. If you've got this all in your head, I'm a very important. it all in the head. Got it all in the head. So doing and being, in order to get promoted, I've got to be doing the right things and becoming the right person. That's where we're going. Three things I got to do. I got to know my role at all times. This is clarity. At Ramsey Solutions, it's a KRA, key results area. It's a one page document. You got one. I got one. Tim's got one. Will's got one. Everybody's got one. Okay. I got to know my role. This is what they are expecting me to do. Number two, I got to accept my role. Okay. So knowing the role is clarity, accepting the role as attitude. I got to accept the role. Hey, it's natural for us human beings to think progress, but we get into a role that we would have six months ago chew our right leg off to get into. And we're in six weeks and what do we want? Well, you know,

what's the next thing? What's the next? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, I got to win the now or there's no next. So accepting the role as an attitude of, hey, I got an opportunity right now. I'm going to make the most of it in the now. Third, maximize the role. Now this is KRA. I'm clear. I know what a win looks like. I got a great attitude, grateful to be here, but I'm going to do more. I'm not just going to host the Entry Leadership Podcast. I'm going to go in and help Tim do some editing. You know, I'm going to help Tim with some guest ideas. George, I'm trying to help you win in this role here. You know, so we're going to go above and beyond what's expected to add more value. Maximize. This is effort, extreme effort. Now, that's what you need to always be doing.

And here's the deal, quick review, then we move into Bean. When you're doing those things on a regular basis, I mean, that's diligence. leaders look at you and they go, George is, he's superb. He's promotable. Look at this guy. He's done exactly what we wanted, but he's gone above and beyond with an incredible attitude. Now, the five things that you need to be becoming, these are character qualities. Here's what's great. We were talking about talent earlier, and we were kind of saying, if you don't have the natural talent at it, you just can't do much with it.

Okay? So I don't have the talent, the physical talent to play basketball. Will Rutter loves basketball. Will seen me jump. I can barely jump over paper. Okay. So I can go work out in the gym seven days a week, three hours a day. I will never develop the talent, the skill of jumping high.

I don't have it. Here's the good news about qualities. These five qualities, if you are a zero, if you score yourself a zero, you can be a 10 in these five qualities. All right? So these are the things I'm becoming to become promoted. Number one, I have got to be likable. All right. Everybody has a likeability number.

Some are three, some are a five, some are a seven. but all of us can work our way to attend. We can be likable, even if we're not extroverted. Likeability is number one. Got to be likable. Number two, you have got to be coachable. All right? Coachable is huge for getting promoted.

Now, there's two types of ways that you get coached. One is instruction, right? Your leader, they instruct you, they train you on the job, or instructing how to do the job. Some new thing comes in, hey, new role, I'm instructing you how to do it. But then many times we have to be corrected. Corrected technically? corrected when we do something wrong. All right? So how do you handle instruction and correction?

If you handle it well, you become very coachable and then as a result, they go, hey, we can promote this person. Third, reliable. Pretty simple here. We know what this is. You do what you say you're going to do. Reliable. You can be counted upon. Then next is adaptable. This is incidentally right now on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is saying that this is the number one quality that hiring managers are looking forward. Is that pandemic people are going to need someone who can pivot absolutely and look at the look at the onset of technology and how everything changes you know an app comes up tomorrow we all keeping up with the trend nobody knew what slack was two years ago or whatever okay so the idea is things are always changing so adaptability is huge this is an attitude of how we handle change change is tough for a lot

of people so adaptability is hey I'm going to have a good attitude about change I'm going to roll with the punches and then the fifth quality is honorable this is integrity that's a big one yeah so those qualities, you can go from a one to a 10. Yeah. So doing and being, I just gave you the things to make you promotable. If you do that, you will get opportunities. People will knock on your door and say, hey, we got a position for you. Why? You're doing the right things and you're becoming the right person. I think there's a lot of leaders out there or aspiring leaders who go, hey, Ken, I want to get promoted into a leadership role. I love this entree leadership stuff. I'm not in leadership yet. Is there a different path for those that want to move into leadership or does it

apply no matter where you are on, you know, the latter? No, I mean, if you want to be a leader, guess what? You've got to become promotable. So what I just went through is where we start. Now, in addition to that, we want to get really serious about reading leadership books, listening to the Entree Leadership podcast, taking furious notes from these interviews and what you're hearing from some unbelievable people, me not included. But you're getting some private. stuff today, all right? And so then you need to make sure that you are following in a way that you pay attention to how you like to be led. So here's what I mean by that. If I want to be in leadership, I don't want to just come in and do the three things, Ken said to do, no-year-roll,

except role, maximize your role. I don't want to just become those five things, likable, right, coachable, reliable, adaptable, honorable, yeah, I can tell things. But I must get my antenna up and go, hey, what do I like about how my leader leads me? What do I dislike? What would I do different? Now, this is not from a spirit of criticism. This is, hey, in order to learn how to lead, I got to pay attention to my following. See, you can lead people if you do nothing else than say, huh, these are the things that really worked well when people led me.

And so I enjoyed being led that way. I'm going to treat people that way. I mean, if we really want to simplify, now, you're not going to be great that way, but you'll be good that way. Yeah. And so you begin to say, hey, what works? What doesn't work? Why doesn't it work? Why would I do it differently?

And begin to follow with your radar kind of on at all times. That's really going to help you as well so that opportunities to speak up and speak into situations and go, hey, I think I'm confident I could come in and lead to that situation. So instead of somebody coming to you with the, here's the golden opportunity, maybe you start to go, hey, I see a situation over there. I think I'm ready to lead there. The reason you're ready to lead is because you're paying attention. You've been a very intentional follower. Be a good follower first.

That will allow you to eventually be a good leader. Yeah, that's so good. On the flip side of this, if you're the leader and you're going, all right, I'm down to get my team members promoted, I love helping develop other leaders. You know, that's the leader's job. What is the leader's role in helping those team members get promoted? Yeah, this is a really good question. And so as a leader, you want to develop your team because as you develop them to do their job better, they help you do your job better. And you should be okay if they move on.

It hurts. Even under the best of circumstances, it hurts. I just had somebody in my team resign who I've poured into a lot. I mean, I feel like I'm losing my right arm. It hurts because of how much I rely on them, how much I honestly care for them. But the reality is I'm also, it's not that big of a surprise, you know, and I'm, you know, and I'm, I'm excited in the long run. And so as leaders, we've got to be okay developing people.

But here's how you do it. You've got to dive into them. Okay. So this is stuff like, hey, what do you need to do your job better? How about that question once a week? I bottle, eyeball, kneecap to kneecap. How can I help you do your job better? It's a great question.

It is. It's pretty simple. Now, here's a deal. You've got to keep asking the question. Because for some people, they might go, is this is Woody? What is he trying to strike? What is she saying? Yeah, no, no, no. Hey, I'm here to help you do your job better. What would help you do your job better? You need an app? Would you need some training in an area? I feel like you needed to take a negotiating course. I mean, ask some leading questions, but get them to tell you. Hey, how can I help you do your job better? You know, many times as a leader, we don't develop our people because we're not thinking about it. And we don't have any clues. We don't see anything because we didn't ask. Yeah. You know, I mean, as a husband, you're a husband. I mean, how many times have you missed something that Whitney needs to.

needed because you just didn't dive in and ask. Three times today already. Oh, really? That's unfortunate. Yeah. I'm counting. Well, here's the deal. So I'm going to talk to leadership and you need a marriage class. Yes. Okay, so you've identified. I need to meet Whitney's needs a little bit better. I have that clarity at the very least. Yeah, that's really good. No, me too. I'll be there with you. So that's the idea. Let's not make it so complex. Ask that question. Let me add one other question to this, by the way. This will help you with that question. The first question I would ask, There's two questions I would tell leaders, new leaders, people that want to be leaders, old leaders, leaders, leaders have been doing a long time. Feel like you're in a leadership rut.

Get into a practice every week of looking at your direct reports in the eyes and ask them, how are you doing? And I don't mean like the hallway, hey, man, how's it going? No, no, no, no, no. That's a greeting. That's a salutation. No, I mean, hey, how you doing? Whitney, okay? Yeah.

How's everything going with the sister-in-law living over there? You know, I want to ask. That's a very different... How's the pup? Approach. Okay. It doesn't have to be deep either. It doesn't have to be...

George, you're sleeping well at night? It doesn't have to be weird. How you doing? All right, so that's personal. That leads to connection. That's caring. Caring. That's connection and caring.

Guess what happens there? Now all of a sudden, they realize that you like them and you care for them, so now they trust you more so that when you go, hey, how can I help you do your job better? How can I help you win? They're going to go, oh, I really know this is legit. And I trust that you actually want to help me win. Yeah. So those two questions will get you to a point where people will tell you where they need to develop and then you can develop.

So, hey, how are you doing? How can I help you win? That's huge. I think every listener needs to try that out this week and see how it changes the game for not only them as a leader, but for that team member. Yeah, I'm not kidding you. If you heard nothing else that I said and there's a good portion of the audience that probably did, do that. Yeah. Seriously, as a leader.

I don't care how you say it, but that's what you're asking. And I would do it every week and watch what happens. Now, I'm going to tell you something. I came up with that because that's what I wanted. Not because I did. I've not been in a leadership position very much where I'm leading a team, but that's what I want. Yeah. I want leaders to look at me and go, hey, how are you doing? How can I help you win? That's a very different approach, especially for my generation, right? The millennials, the Gen Z, they want to work somewhere with people who care, with leaders who actually care about them as a person.

That's not just about their results. By the way, the reason I'm here in this position is because we actually do. leaders do ask us that here. Yeah. Do you understand what I'm saying? But it's like, that's what I want. And so it's like, well, wait a second. And so if we do that, you're going to see massive connection and trust grow.

And then they're going to really share with you. And then you just act on it. How can help you win your job when they tell you? Figure out what you can do. All right, I'll tell you what. I'll send you to this conference this year. Tell you what, I'll sign you up for this e-course. Company can't pay for it.

Company can't pay for it. But I personally am going to pay for half of it. I don't care, leader. just help them win. That's developing them. And that's how you're going to retain them too, which goes full circle. Back to the beginning of this interview. Let me tell you something right now. HR data shows us over and over that people would rather receive reward and recognition than they would erase.

If you were doing what we just talked about, that is recognition and reward. The recognition is that you know them, that you see them, that you care for them. The reward is you're training them and developing them more valuable. internally and, let's be honest, externally. That's huge. They will be, you know, we've said this 100 times. I don't know if I've ever said it on this program, but we know this from data.

People leave leaders, not companies. So, again, this is going to help you not just develop, but retain. As you mentioned out, you called this out. You're absolutely right. Yeah, I feel that. And I've seen it with friends that have left. People want that growth plan. They want that recognition.

they want to feel like they're making impact and they can make progress within an organization. Yeah, you want the competitive advantage. Let's walk this through. So I talk to callers every day that are wanting to leave you leaders. I do. That's my show, right? People call me they aren't happy in their work. They want to move on.

So folks, leaders listen to me. Hopefully none of these leaders specifically. Hopefully none of your people are calling me. But the point is, is that I talk to them. So leaders, listen to me. Listen, if you do this, you do what we just discussed. and they get an offer from some other company, they're going to go,

I know my leader loves me and has really poured into me. I love my leader. I'm so loyal. Oh, yeah, this is a $10,000 raise. This does look shiny, but I don't really know what the leader's like over there. Are you telling me that's not going to happen?

Of course it's going to happen. It's a competitive advantage because here's a little secret leaders. People don't like change. Hey, I guess. got no problem with you having a competitive advantage of their fear that their next leader isn't going to be as great as you. That's freaking awesome. I love that. Yeah, that's huge. And is it going to be a toxic environment? Is it worth the 10 grand pay bump to hate my life? They are asking that if you are treating them in the way we're talking about because they're going, I feel so loved and

supported here. Man, I'm kind of okay with that sweat. I'm okay with that. Are you the kind of leader that creates that level of tension where they're going, I don't know that I want to leave here, even if it's for a pay bump. I love that. That's huge. Well, Ken, I'm super pumped for your book, Paycheck to Purpose. From Paycheck to Purpose.

It's going to help so many people. Oh, man. I can't wait for this thing. You're lighting up about it, and there's so much in here that we've talked about connected to all of that and helping these leaders get in their sweet spot, helping get their team in the right seat on the bus. This is so vitally important to a healthy business,

a healthy organization, and a healthy leader. Yeah, I appreciate it, George, and you're doing a great job, and you're really modeling a lot of what we talked about and taking the torch. And I can't ever come back on-Trey leadership program and not say to all the people have been listening, at least as long as I go back, man, I love this tribe. I love the Altray leadership audience. I love the events.

I love the podcast audience. Just some of the best years of my life. And so it's always fun to be back here. I love it. We'll always have you back if you'll be back, Ken. Thank you. Yeah, thanks, man. Always great to sit down with my friend Ken Coleman.

If you want to order a copy of his new book from paycheck to purpose, the clear path to doing work you love, just click the link in the show notes. Get Clear is one of the key stages that Ken unpacks in the book. So how do you do that with a team member who's a culture fit, but not a great fit in their role? We'll have a conversation about that right after this. In our second interview, I sit down with Luke Lefevre, our chief creative officer here at Ramsey Solutions.

He shares a story about helping his executive assistant move into a designer role. We had been working together three months, and I'll probably mess up the timeline. I don't remember the exact dates and things, but she was working with me three months. We got through the 90 days, you've got four months, five months. I think it was right around six months where I was just noticing this doesn't seem to be the thing that she is just on the planet to do, you know? Some people, they just, they are, they just naturally fit.

and they can think ahead of what they think you'll need and do this or that for being an assistant. I'm not a master assistant hireer, but I've done pretty good, I think. But this one in particular, she was, like I said, a great person, but there was just little things where I was like, oh, I would like that to be better. Remember when I said to do this thing, and then it didn't get done? and just some organization things. No giant red flags. No fireable offenses here, but it was like, it's not jiving how I thought it would. Yes.

Yeah. And so I've just kind of got that in the back of my head. And like, okay, I'm probably going to have to, we're going to have to have a talk about this eventually. And you've been here a little while. And I had corrected her on some things. But eventually we're going to have to talk about this. And it was right around Christmas, I think, a couple years ago. and I always take my assistant and their spouse out, me and my wife go out to dinner around

Christmas time, and we just have a great night together and hang out, have dinner. And we were at the dinner, and we had been working together probably six months or so. And we get to the dinner, and her husband sits down and she sits down, and they just start talking. And it had been my wife's birthday a little bit earlier, and there's no expectation for a gift or anything like that. But we sit down and her husband goes, oh, you forgot to bring Mandy's gift. And I didn't know there was a gift. It's no big deal.

Like, I don't care, you know. But then she goes, oh, I'm always forgetting things like this. And her husband goes, she is always forgetting things like this. I am the organized one. And they start going down this path where he's the one that keeps track of things and keeps the family organized. and she's sort of the free spirit, creative kind of person. Yeah. And I'm sitting there watching this little conversation happen, and I'm like, oh, no.

Because I am not an organized person. Luke is not organized. I need help with organization. And if my assistant is like me, we're in trouble. Like, we're in trouble. And so we're having this dinner. And in my head, I'm like, this is it. Like, this is the catalyst I need to have this conversation.

I'm like, oh, this makes talk. total sense. So I actually was going to have that conversation with her earlier that day, but I thought, oh, we have dinner tonight and I don't want to... You don't want to make it weird. Yeah, it's right. I didn't want to do it that night. So I put it off, and then we have that dinner, and it's just blatantly obvious that her husband's the organized one. Turns out he's like a financial advisor, accountant kind of guy. And we just start talking about the past and, you know, how she loves art and all this kind of stuff. And I'm just sort of starting to put some things together. So, um, um,

I don't know. I think it was the next week. I was like, hey, let me just have a talk. Let's sit down. And we had, we had been through some stuff before that already. So when she sat down, I was just like, hey, you know, this is, there's just a little bit of hit and misses here between you and I and what my expectations are and what you're doing. And she, she was like, I know. I felt safe. Like, I want a great relationship with people on my team. So, I'm always asking how they're doing, what's going on with your family. I'm trying my best to connect with them. You're very relational. Yeah, because I'm with these people most of the day. I want to have a good relationship with them. So when I'm asking questions, I'm like, hey, how you doing? And so she kind of lets her shoulders down and she's just like, yeah, I know I'm sensing it.

But in that regard, it's someone's job. So they're always a little bit like they don't want to lose their job. and say, yeah, I'm not, I'm not great at this, and I actually don't like it or something. You know. So she was like, yeah, I know. And we just got to talking. And I was like, well, tell me about your past. Like, what did you want to do when you were a kid?

And she goes, oh, well, actually? And I was like, yeah. She's like, I wanted to be a designer. And I was like, really? What? And she goes, yeah, I actually went to a year or two of design school back in the day. and everything I follow on Instagram has to do with illustration and art and creativity and things like that. And I'm like, why did you, why did you ever stop?

And she told me a story about something that happened in her past that was rough and someone discouraged her from it. And so she started just helping someone at a church she was at. And she started assisting that person and just kind of fell into that story. but I was like, well, but you're drawn to this. And my Luke's opinion is that we all have things that are in our souls that God put there since we're born. He has some things he wants to create with us. And whether that's math or accounting or art or design or engineering or whatever, I think there are seeds of that when you're a little kid, when you're four or five years old.

And those seeds just get more water over the course. course of your life and you can either go in the direction of those or you can get off track because of other people or many different things but so i start asking her questions about how she grew up what was that about and she just goes i follow all these people on instagram that are creatives i wanted to be a designer i'm always doing this she's like doing calligraphy and i just go you know you're you're a creative and when i said you're a creative like her shoulders dropped and she goes and she started getting teary-eyed. And she goes, you're making me think about things I haven't thought about in a long time. And I'm like, you have to follow this. Whether it's here at Ramsey or not, you have to,

like, this is something you're drawn to. You have to follow it. And she was like, oh, okay, yeah, and you could tell there was energy around it. And so we get through that. And I'm like, and I need an assistant. And we were pretty honest with it. Like, I need someone to do. And I need someone to this job because I'm not good at it. Like, I need help organizing. And so we just started walking down this journey together of what would it look like for you to explore this design side of things and be honest about the fact that I need an assistant who does this kind of thing. And she was great about it. And we started working down that path. Wow. And today, she's still with us. And she's one of our designers doing great work. And she's, she's, she's, she's,

a new designer. She's been doing this for, I think, eight months or something like that. And it was a risk for her, for us on the design side. And we put her in some training, but also it was up to her to drive it. Like, we're not going to take care of everything. We said, hey, you need to learn these skills. I know you have a draw to that kind of thing. But she only had a little bit of training before that. And so she did. She got, she went on YouTube, got all the tutorials. She started learning how to use the programs. And she really dove into it. She was naturally passionate about it. Exactly. It was much easier for her.

And we said, hey, we're going to try this for three months. And after the three months, I mean, if it's just not working, we're going to be honest with each other about it. And she really dove in it. And it's been going really well. That's awesome. Yeah. I want to unpack some of the mechanics here that I think can help the listeners.

Because I feel like the listeners are going, they can think of one person right now who's not in that right seat, who maybe has the same frustrations of like, they're not doing what I need them to do in the right way, but they're a great culture. fit. How do I get them in that right? See, and it sounds like it started with the leader caring enough to ask questions. Yeah, right. And for some of the listeners that they may not be as relational as you are, right? You really care deeply about that stuff. And all leaders should care. You're naturally wired that way. What is the questions they need to be asking to even get to that point where they can find those things out about a team member? Yeah. First, you have to see, is it,

is it just a skill thing? So you said, hey, good culture fit for your company. You like them being around. If it's just a skill thing, but you know this person has drive and you know they have a want and a hunger to get better, that was the thing with my assistant is I could tell she wanted to work. She wanted to figure things out. If that's not there, then you just have to make a hard call and say, hey, this is just not a good fit. And you got to walk through that process. So if, like you said, we're already culture fit and we're already you want to work here, I would just start asking, I would go backwards. Tell me about what you liked to do when you were a kid.

And they tell stories. Like I have a guy on my team, Brad Denison, he leads part of our creative team. When he was a little kid, if I asked what he was drawn to, he tells the story of he remembers putting, he had a hamster. And he put the tubes, he would always rearrange the tube each day because he liked how the hamster would walk through the tubes to get to the walk. And he just thought that was fascinating. Well, as I talked to him and we're doing this new building we're in a couple years ago, he was the one we put on walking through the timeline and the lobby and the entire experience. Because he's just kind of drawn to that stuff.

Yeah. So I'm looking for stories along their journey that point to where they could go. So another guy I told him that story about the hamsters and whatever. And he goes, oh, I don't have any stories like that. He's like, I remember being in a pizza hut when I was little. might have told the story on another entree. I don't know, but he remembers being in a pizza hut when he was little, and he asked his dad how much a pizza cost.

And his dad goes, I don't know, like, how much a pizza cost to make, not how much they're selling it for. He goes, I don't know, a couple bucks. And this kid looks down at the menu, and he sees they're charging 12 for it. And he's like, business. They're making good money. He just saw how this whole thing worked. So I started asking questions like, what were you like in elementary,

what were you like in high school, what were you drawn to? well I was always taking my old camcorder and I was making making videos for my family to watch or boy I lost track of time when I was doing math I don't Luke doesn't know what that's like but so people that's their story yeah it sounds like there's a lot of I'm gonna I'm gonna poke here so I can find out how you're wired exactly so I can figure out what you're really after and sometimes that's hard because the team member might be a little bit on edge and so having that open communication and making a kind of a safe environment for them to even talk about that kind of stuff is super important.

And once you start having that conversation, it sounds like another part was encouragement of you saying, hey, you know what? I see this in you. Oh, 100%. And I think you can do this over here and what's stopping you and starting to really get them excited about it is a huge part of it. Yep.

Belief in the person. Yeah. And again, that is if they are a culture fit and a good fit for your business. Obviously, I want to believe in everybody, but especially the ones like if you believe in them tell them hey i see something in you and let's figure out what it is it might not end with you working here but it's going to be better for your life like have the courage and the love of the person to say hey this thing isn't a good fit for what you told me

yeah like you told me all these stories about this that and the other growing up what our business does is nothing like that like why do you work here and If you can break through that wall and just get super honest with them, which isn't easy, but is a good thing. It's about having that relationship and go get a beer. Hey, tell me what you wanted to do when you were a senior in high school. Tell me what your dream was when you graduated college. And if they are nowhere near that thing and those stories don't align, you're probably going to have some kind of problem. Yeah.

You know? So there's a piece of this that's interesting because when I think of the business owner out there, if they're going, Luke, I hired this person to work. Okay, I didn't hire this person to handhold them and find out about their childhood and find out what their life dreams are. But you're saying a part of leadership is actually getting to the root of that

with your team member. I think so. It's caring. If we can change the way business is thought about and make it about caring about people as well as the outcome, like you're caring about your customers and your team members, if I actually care about them,

I think the culture would change. Imagine if we could change how work is in America. If it wasn't, work has to suck. But it's like, oh, no, this work, I know my boss, my leader, cares about me as a person. Even if that means I end up not working here, but he's caring about what's best for me in my life. That could change the culture. Yeah. Like, yes, if you're a leader, you should care about the people on your team, not just what they can produce.

although that is important because you have a business run. I don't deny that. But if you have an air conditioning, heat HVAC business, or you have an installing pools business, and this is a person, you have architecting how this whole thing is going to go in the back of someone's yard, if it's a pool, or how the system is going to work with the machine, and they are always forgetting details and not knowing how to do that,

and they're always making those mistakes. It's like, hey, let's go back a second. How did you get into this? Well, I don't know. My dad did this and then I got an internship or I just started a summer job and it's like, hey, let's figure out which part of this would actually be good.

And if they're just being lazy, then that's another thing. I care enough to tell you that you're just being lazy. Like, this is a motivation thing. Care enough about the people to tell them the truth and walk with them through the story. Yeah, it reminds me of our episode we did recently with Chef Big Shake, Sean Davis.

and he was talking about investing in the team and helping them get to that point and even if they leave or there's some, you know, there's some sad thing that happens and you go, man, I invested in them. But that person's going to walk away from that, remembering that leader for the rest of their life and how they impact them.

And so I love this idea of helping them get to that goal, even if that goal may not be here forever. Think about your favorite teacher in elementary school. I think we all have one of those where either they did something, they saw something in you, and maybe you didn't.

You had jerked. teachers your whole life. But I'm sure there is a favorite mentor or somebody in those years that said, hey, you got something. And they give you a little extra book, hey, read this on the side or something. Like, I think that's our job as leaders, is to care about our teams, the team members' outcomes of their lives, not just the performance of their job. Yeah. It's all connected. So to kind of sum this up, it sounds like it starts with an honest conversation. It starts with the leader caring enough to look up and realize, hey, this is not working out how I want it to work out, but they're a great person. They're still a great fit. So to get them on the right seat,

it's going to take some questions that show them that I care. It's going to take encouraging them to move. And it's going to take you going, hey, I actually see this spot over here and giving them that opportunity. Because that's a big spot. And, you know, I've had so many seats on the Ramsey bus, you know. And every time, it wasn't me busting through because of my own drive. It was a leader saying, I see something in you, I'm going to give you this opportunity. And I think when we do that, we're going to see our businesses change. We're going to see the customers impacted. We're going to see the results, the revenue.

All those pieces will fall into place if we do this, right? And they know you care about them. And if they're lazy and if they got motivation problems, cut the weeds out. Like, yeah, you got to do that. But there are people, you don't have to make up the fact that you see something in them. Maybe you don't. But the people that you do see something, something in go for it you know believe in them push them to be better humans i saw something the other

day it was just leadership is just taking on the responsibility of the developing of someone else like if you're the leader they're looking to you to lead them that's the definition of the word you're in front you're showing the way not only on how to install the thing but oh life can go in this direction. Cool. And I think that's our jobs. Yeah. Well, Luke, I'm grateful for the way you lead your team and how you're a relational leader who cares. We need more of those and we need more people in the right seats on the bus to see these businesses flourish and grow. So thanks so much for your time. You got it, man. Honor to be here. As Ken and Luke talked about in today's episode, you need the right people in the right seat. But the first step is finding the right people. And we make it easy with our

Entree Leader's Guide to Hiring. To get this free guide, click the link in the show notes. Hope you enjoyed today's episode of the show. If you did, leave us a review and subscribe so you don't miss the next one. And if you're a small business owner with 2 to 200 team members, we want to hear what you think of the show. What you like, what you don't like, and what we could do better. Give us your feedback by clicking the link in the show notes to fill out a brief survey to schedule a call with Tim, our producer. You can follow us on social media at Entree Leadership. This episode was produced by Tim Hull. edited by Jacob Harrison and mixed and mastered by Will Rudder. I'm your host, George Camel, and on behalf of the entire Entree Leadership team, thanks for listening.

Until next time, keep learning and keep leading. If you enjoy this podcast, you should check out other great podcasts from the Ramsey Network, like The Ken Coleman Show. Are you doing what you were born to do? I'm Ken Coleman, host of the Ken Coleman Show, where I give you practical advice to help you discover your purpose and then map out a plan to get you there, from accounting to advertising, from plumbing to production, you were created to fill a unique role, and the world needs what you have to offer.

Join me on the Ken Coleman Show wherever you listen to podcasts.