EntreLeadership - How to Grow a Healthy Organization and Culture with Craig Groeschel

Episode Date: February 8, 2021

Ideas are great, but they’ll only take you so far. When it comes down to it, success in business depends on your ability to execute. Craig Groeschel, senior pastor of Life.Church, grew his organization over the course of 25 years from just a service in a two-car garage to 36 church locations across America. His strategy? Empowering great people to create effective systems that accomplish a clear goal. If you’ve ever felt like you don’t know how to move the needle, this episode will give you the basics for thinking strategically and creating systems that get the job done.   entreleadership.com/podcast Craig Groeschel's website Life.Church’s website Join Craig at EntreLeadership Summit Atomic Habits by James Clear Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki Discipline Equals Freedom (Field Manual) by Jocko Willink The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg Crucial Conversations by Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, Ron McMillan and Al Switzler Winning the War in Your Mind by Craig Groeschel Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast Craig Groeschel’s Instagram Communication Field Guide EntreLeadership Toolkit - Top tools to help your business can grow and thrive Schedule a call with Tim, the Producer   Want expert help with your business question? Call 844-944-1070 and leave a message or send an email to [e-mail]. You could be featured on a future podcast episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Do you have a strategic plan for your business this year? What's your plan? Where are you going? Is it written down? Do you have your defining objectives? Now you might be thinking, uh, strategic planning. I know that's important,

but we can't get there yet. We got too much going on or it takes too much time or maybe that's something that we'll do when we're a bigger company or more sophisticated. I'm going to tell you, it doesn't matter what size company you are. You've got to have a freaking plan. From the Ramsey Network,

This is the Entree Leadership Podcast, where we help business leaders grow themselves, their teams, and their profits. I'm your host, Daniel Tarty, and my guest today is Craig Groschell. Craig's the founder and senior pastor of Life Church. He's going to join us again at our Entree Leadership Summit event coming up this May, back by popular demand because this guy drops gold. You're going to love this. Hey, he's got one of the largest churches in the United States, multiple locations, lots of digital cutting-edge stuff. and he started literally in his garage from nothing, from scratch. So he knows a thing or two about how to have a vision and then build a plan and then drive that

plan into execution. That's what it's all about. Now, if you don't feel like you're there yet, if you don't have a plan and it feels daunting, I want to encourage you, that's normal. Many organizations like Craigs don't always start out with a master plan. But the good news is this is something you can learn along the way. We started 25 years ago in a little two-car garage on a very snowy Sunday with about 40 people. And we kind of expanded from there to some different places, built a building a few years later.

And we were kind of on the front end of experimenting with doing video teaching and going multiple sites. So we were either the first or one of the first churches in the nation to do. just kind of start plowing that ground. And if you fast forward, 25 years, as of today, our church meets in 36 physical locations. We're in 11 different states. Have a great team of people, tons and tons of volunteers that are actively engaged. And then we're super aggressive digitally as well doing a ton of online ministry. And, you know, normally what you would think of in social media and such to outreach.

but also real, vibrant online, kind of like church service that meets a bunch of times during the week with people all over the world. I can imagine that when you started, that you didn't necessarily see everything that you're doing today. It's kind of one of those. Let's get going, and then we've got to keep up with a vision as we go along. Did you become a leader in response to what was going on, or have you always had a bent towards leadership? You know, that's a great question. So I was, I played sports growing up. And so you're an athlete as well. When you're in any kind of extracurricular activity, you kind of stumble into leadership, whether you're following somebody or whether you're doing the leading. So I had a, I started to recognize there were times on the field where I might assume a leadership role that when there was a vacuum. And then, oddly enough, when I started, the church, in my mind, all I had was a pastor as a pastor. So if there was a metaphor for that, it would have been like the shepherd that takes care of the sheep. And when I looked at Jesus in

scripture, that's what I saw was a person who loved people and cared for people. It wasn't honestly until a few years in that I took a different lens and started to realize that a pastor or a shepherd could also be a really good spiritual leader. And it was really interesting when I changed my lens and started looking at Jesus, not just through the eyes of someone who cared for people, but who actually led people. It was revolutionary. And it kind of brought something, I think, that was inside of me, but I didn't know that was there, that now, you know, I love talking about as much as anything.

And it translates good leaderships, good leadership in a church and a for-profit and a nonprofit, and a family, anywhere you go. And I think leadership's so important. So that's why, you know, I'm a big fan of what you all do, the Autre Leadership Podcast, the conference we have coming up is just a great investment in leadership. We know that everyone wins when the leader gets better. And I appreciate your investment in me and all the other leaders around the world, helping us get better.

I think it's a key thing to call out that as a pastor, you really see yourself as a leader. And I experience you almost like a leader who happens to be a pastor. And especially with small business owners that are for-profit, There's a little bit of a stigma that, okay, a pastor somebody I go listen to on Sunday to get, you know, spiritually filled up in leadership and growing as a leader as a place. I got to go out into the secular world or into the marketplace to make sure that I get the practical side of all this stuff. And I really feel like you have a unique gift of kind of bringing those worlds together. It seems that you don't distinguish like here's a marketplace and here's church, but it kind of all is about people and leading and making an impact. To me, there really is no difference. Leadership is leadership, whether it's done in a church, a for-profit or a nonprofit. And so I get as engaged talking to a small business owner or someone who's running a big organization, as I do talk into a pastor of any-sized church, I think that it doesn't matter the type of the organization. You can feel good leadership when you walk into an organization, and you also feel the absence of it. And so I'm just a fan of helping people succeed, of casting vision to do more of whatever you value, of creating a great culture that people want to be a part of, taking care of people,

being clear on what matters, celebrating good outcomes, correcting wrong ones. And that works no matter what type of organization you're in. So I'm just, I'm just a fan. Anywhere I go, it's like a salesman loves to be sold. A leader loves to be led and be around other great leaders. That's inspiring. We agree on that. You know, we're talking about this idea of strategic planning. And many businesses, and I imagine this was probably similar with Life Church, don't start with a big master plan. We start out of a hope, a dream. Sometimes we start out of survival. And then along the way we figure out we have to have a plan. We get stuck somewhere and we go, this isn't working. How do we get above it and start thinking strategically? What was that moment for you guys when you shifted from that startup state and you're bringing all the energy to go. on, hey, we really got to have a bigger plan and a vision here. Yeah, well, I like the phrase, Daniel, you said you have to get above it. And that's something that, you know, when I'm working with leaders is sometimes I'll just, like, draw a line on a board and kind of going up into the right.

And that's whatever we lead, we want it to be up into the right. We want to reach more people, make more money, have more impact, whatever it is. And I always say there's like above the line vision, which is if the line's going up into the riot. We want some type of vision to take the vision up. But what you have to have beneath the line is the support in order to keep the structure sound or eventually the line collapses. Think of it like a bridge. If you're going to build a bridge across a body of water or across some big chasm, if you don't have the support under the bridge, the bridge won't stand. And so as a leader, we need a lot of us, especially the entrepreneurial leaders, we typically think above the line.

you know, more sales, more church members, more vision, more product soul, whatever it is. And if we don't think below the line equally to bring about the structure, the systems, the accountability, then eventually it all does crumble. And for us, it was, honestly, it was about three months. If you can imagine, we started with 40 people. We didn't have a telephone number back when landlines were a thing. We didn't have an office. We didn't have a thing, not a thing, not nothing at all, not a business card, nothing, not even a place to meet. We were in a garage. And then three months into it, there was a reporter did a big news story. It might have been a cover story of our local news. It was a big news story. And we jumped up to 234 people. I remember the exact

number overnight in this elementary school we were meeting in. And within three weeks, we were back down to 80 people. And the reason is we didn't have the systems to care for the people. it came. So we had the explosive growth, but we didn't have the beneath the line structure to take care of people to adequately care for them, to get them involved, engaged. And so it crashed as quick as it took off. And that was a moment, Daniel, where I just recognized that I've got to change the way I think, how I empower people, how it create systems, how I bring accountability. And I didn't even know that type of language back then. You know, it's 28 years old and just a total rookie. But that's when I started studying other leaders and trying to figure out

the same that some business owners are right now. You know, you've got more growth than cash, or you've got, you know, more business than time or whatever it is, and you need to look at it. And I like what you said. You've got to get above it. I think it was the rich dad, poor dad. He said, you don't just work in your business. You work on your business. And that's kind of what we have to do at times is take a step back, look at what we have, accurately assess it, and then ask ourselves, what are the right structures, what systems do we need to put in place to sustain this and help propel it forward and hopefully up and to the right. You gave a talk at our last Entree Leadership Summit, and it was an incredible talk. I wrote down a lot of things, but one thing that

has just stuck in my memory and come back to me time and time again is something you said, this is what I wrote down. You might correct me on if I wrote it down correctly or not. we don't rise to the level of our dreams and goals. We settle to the level of our systems. Did I get that right? Yeah, that's a James Clear quote from Atomic Habits. And he says it, if I can get it right, it's real close. He says, we don't rise to the level of our goals.

We fall to the level of our systems, something like that. And it's so true because we all have similar goals. He writes about in his great book, we all want to have a good marriage. We want to have a profitable business. We want to have a strong outreach ministry. whatever it is. We all want to be healthy. We all want to be out of debt. But yet, the results are dramatically different. And so it's not the goals that help us get to the destination, but it's the systems or it's the plan. It's not just vision, but we have to have good, clear execution,

or the vision is just a hope, a dream. And that's the difference, you know, between so many good and profitable businesses or ministries and those that struggle. Well, how do you define a system? Well, in the talk, I've got a pretty long definition, and then I have a short one, and the only one I remember is a short one. But the short one is essentially how you accomplish the what. That's the clearest and simplest definition of a system, is how do you accomplish the what that you want to accomplish? And so that is simple, but it also takes some work. and you have to start with the what.

What's interesting, Daniel, is there's a lot of times when we're not real clear on the what. You know, you could go to an organization, could be a startup business or a thriving, you know, a tenured business, and say, you know, what is the big win? And if you ask five different people, you may not get the same answer five times. And so we have to be really, really, really clear on what is the specific win. And by that, it's not just here's the outcome we want, but it's here's the specific outcome by the specific time, done in a specific way. And so that the what's got to be really, really clear. And then the system is just how we accomplish the what. So if we know what the what is, then here's kind of like in sports, here's the rules or here's the guidelines or here's the procedures.

And here's step one, two, three, four. Here's who does what when. here's how they're held accountable. Here's how they're celebrated when they do it. Here's how they're corrected when they don't. And that essentially is the system. It's the how that you specifically accomplish the what. I've had a lot of business people ask us at Ramsey, what is your process for strategic planning?

And I get this, there's almost like this undertone of what's the magic formula. And we certainly have frameworks and models that we use. And I tend to facilitate a lot of our board strategic planning, like off-site session. But if I can look through the years of all the time that we've done this, it changes a lot. There's times it's a little bit more organic. There's times we're following a very rigid process. I feel like the primary thing is intentionally creating the space to do that thinking and planning. Like if that's 80% of the battle is prioritizing on the calendar, we're going to invest time to connect on the what and agree on the what and force some of these hard conversations about arguing through whether that really is.

is the what and then building out the how together. Have you found that to be true? Yes, 100%. In fact, if there's anyone who's leading an organization listening right now, the trajectory is toward the weekly meeting or whatever the normal meetings would be. And so we tend to think that solves the issues. That does solve some. But I found in my experience that the weekly meeting tends to be really, really close to the action. And what we have to do, again, to use your metaphors, we have to get above it. And that's why if you don't have, I would say quarterly is kind of essential once a quarter, and it could be more often than that, but at least once a quarter where you're doing, we just call them an off-site meeting. And it's funny, our off-site meetings are actually on-site

sometime, but they're in a different environment, which is really, really important. Because when they're in the same environment, what happens is you tend to sit in the same seat and you have the same view. and you also have access to your phones. You can be checking email or text, you know. And so what we like to do is get to a different place, either in the building or what's even better is you get in a different place to the city or even better yet get to a different place in the country, which is harder to do now than at other times in our lives, but get to a totally different place, different environment, and that creates a different gear in your mind

where you're not just thinking here's what's coming up this week or next week, but you're thinking out the next quarter, maybe three quarters, maybe even two years in advance. And that really breaks you out of what's urgent and gives you permission and the space to work on what's important. If you're always looking week to week, which is what we tend to do in the weekly meetings, then you're going to be responding rather than initiating. And great leaders don't respond. Great leaders also initiate. Well, there's a huge piece of this that depends on creativity. And it really is true that creativity and environment go hand in hand. And so creating a different environment, shaking it up,

viscerally saying we're in a different space, so we're going to think differently instead of being in this rut that we're used to with the weekly meeting. When you have an offsite coming up, as the senior leader of your organization, what are you doing to prepare? Are you journaling? Are you coming up with questions? Are you connecting with a facilitator? What's kind of your process? Yeah. So what I'll do, Daniel, a few weeks before is I kind of keep a running log. both on my phone and then I have a notepad. And so I like to keep it in two different places. The reason is I put it on my phone.

Here's the big subjects I want to cover because it's immediate. I'm out to lunch somewhere. I'm working out in the gym. And so I think of it. I put it down there. Then I also personally transfer it to a piece of paper because I like the physical process of writing. It engages my brain.

And then when I put it down in two places, it like locks. It's not just on the phone, but I've written it down as well. And then we'll all do that in our planning meeting. The group I meet with, we typically have four of us. And we'll propose the agenda ahead of time. And then we'll prioritize what we're going to cover. What we like to do is knock out small stuff first and then leave the brainstorming stuff toward the end. I like small stuff first because it's kind of like the debt snowball.

You pay off a small debt and you feel some momentum. And so I like to make some quick decisions. And then what that does is it puts us in kind of we're in decisively. mode right now. And once we get the smaller decisions out of the way, it frees up our space to be a little bit more creative. And that's the flow that works well for us. But I don't think there's any right way or wrong way to do it. I'd say the only wrong way is to not give yourself permission and strategically calendar some time to get up above and think creatively into the future. creativity, a lot of times we tend to think you need lots of you.

I need more money to be more creative. I need a lot of time. I found the opposite to be true that constraints often drive creativity more than excesses. And so I wouldn't wait. For example, just to tell a real quick story with your organization, it was probably 2009 right after the 2008 housing crash. You guys came to us and said, hey, what if we did an event? We put our heads together, and within, I think it was six weeks, planned an event where we crossed networks with all your millions of people that listen and all of our thousands of church that we have relationships with.

And within about a six-week period, pull off a 6,000 site live broadcast call. I think we called it a Night of Hope, if I remember right. It was called, I remember this. It was called Town Hall for Hope. Town Hall for Hope. Because everybody was stressed about the economy. And it was a message of hope. And it was an incredible partnership.

I don't think that we could have done that as well if we had nine months. And it was the constraints that drove the creativity. And so that's a lot of times in any type of creative planning, rather than dreaming big, we like to try to put constraints on it because that often brings out the best. But I was, that was, I had the utmost respect for your organization, culture, the leadership, but it was in that time seeing the execution in just a few weeks. You know, my, my hat's off. And admiration is the highest for what you all do. Well, you said a key word, and that is execution.

And strategic planning is only as valuable as our ability to execute. And I think it's kind of why it gets a bad rap sometimes. Like, we're just going to sit around and be strategic. How about we go do some real work? And it's a reason that many business people uses an excuse to never do it because they don't see the utility in it. And I think it's because, you know, we've all been in these meetings, Craig. You've been in these and I have where we have a lot of energy and a lot of good discussion and then we leave and then nothing actually gets done with the stuff that we said we're going to do. Right.

Yep. We've also been in these meetings, though, where we go, wow, we got clarity, we got alignment, and then we got traction. What's the difference in those two outcomes? What are the keys to making sure we actually execute on what we were talking about? Well, like your words, you're kind of almost laying a great roadmap, but you said we have clarity. I can't remember the next one you said. Alignment. Yeah, clarity alignment.

And so that's, you know, both those words are super, super important. And it's back to the do we, can we clearly define what specifically the win is. and it's just shocking how often that key leaders can't do that in their organization, meaning the win is not just profit, but the win is this product gets out at this time and hits this target, or the win is these three locations open up by this time and has these type of numbers. You have to be really, really clear. And so there's clarity, clarity, clarity. And then there's alignment, meaning it's, you know, we all agree that we're working on this together.

and to make it super simple, what I like to do, if we're creating systems, people will say, like, you know, how do you create the system to execute on the plan? What we're going to do is we're just going to be really, really clear on what is the specific desired outcome, who is going to do what and when are they going to do it by? And what we do is when we've got a great team and we do just what you said, we've got clarity, we've got an alignment. Here's the specific win. Here's what we'd like to see happen. And then we're not creating the systems as much as we're empowering great leaders to create the systems. When we reward them, when they bring about the great outcome, what happens is we are reinforcing and celebrating great systems. If, on the other hand, we bring correction, which doesn't mean they get fired, doesn't mean they get chewed out, just means, hey, you're held accountable.

And we bring correction when they don't bring about the right outcome. And what happens is they go back and they create a better system. And that's all it is. People have looked at what we do in 36 locations. It's not a big deal. I mean, there's franchises or businesses with tens of thousands. So we're not a big deal, but we are consistent in 36 locations in 11 different states. And so they say, you're great at systems.

You're great at systems. I don't feel like we're great at systems. What I feel like is we're great at clarity. We're great at alignment. We're great at celebrating the outcome. We're great at correcting it when it doesn't have. happen. And so what happens is our people are really good at systems because smart people figure it out. It's just this has to be done by such and such. And then they'll go and they'll create a one, two, three, four. Here's the order. And it's, it's, we don't have to create the systems. What we do is we have to create the clarity, the expectations, the celebrations, the corrections. And then we trust great people to create great, great systems. Then the most fun part of it is what happens when you have great systems.

Well, great systems make good leaders look great. And the inverse is true. If you've got really bad systems, nobody has clarity. You don't know who does what, when. There's no real clear how. There's no clear win at the end of the day. Then weak systems can make a really good leader look bad. And so we want it all working together.

We want the systems helping reinforce good leadership, and the good leadership helps reinforce the great systems. And if we've got an average player, the great systems makes them look even better. And over time, they hopefully do get better. And that's how good organizations are built over time. You mentioned the word consistency. I think about in my years building entree leadership, the thing I've probably struggled with the most is consistency.

And here's why. And I want to get your take on this. I'm pretty good with let's go work on a strategic plan. Let's have a big exciting vision. Let's pull this together. and then we go execute for a quarter and we don't achieve the plan on the pace that I thought we would

because the plan's just a hypothesis. I mean, it's our best hope of what we think we can do. And we get one or two quarters into this and I'm thinking, okay, we've got to hold the line. And then I start doubting the hypothesis. I'm like, maybe we're going the wrong direction. And I'll read a book or I'll listen to a podcast

and I'll get inspired and go, okay, we should go that direction. And I just have that entrepreneurial, it's a blessing and a curse because I have a lot of ideas. and a lot of vision. But if I'm not careful, I can be very distracting to the team

because they're going, I thought we said we're doing this for the next five years, and now five months later you want to go a different direction. How do you balance that tension of we've got to be consistent and we've got to follow through on the plan?

But then there are times we need to change direction because we realize the hypothesis isn't bearing out. We learned something that we didn't know when we made this point. That's a fantastic question, and there's kind of layers to answer it.

One is, if you go five months in the same direction, that's better than a lot of people. Because, you know, sometimes in the organization, it's like, here's the plan and six weeks later, it's gone. Or someone reads a book or goes to a conference and comes back and now they've got a whole new plan. So I think, I think to start with the basics that our values have to remain consistent. Our strategy is, it has to change over time. So we're not, we're not ever going to get the strategy right over, yeah, 10-year period. There's just, there's no way. We have to tweak it. and most likely overhaul it, not just tweak it, but overhaul at multiple points over a decade.

So if the values are inconsistent, we can't lead people. And that sometimes derails leaders. We say one thing, and then privately we do something different. So we're going to make sure the values are always consistent. Then the next thing is we want to make sure communication is always consistent. So it's interesting is you could even have a consistent strategy with inconsistent communication and have a bad outcome. So the communication has to be constant, has to be consistent. People have to know when we're going to hear, how we're going to hear. If they're sitting

around asking questions nonstop, then we're not doing a good job. As leaders, you know, I always tell our team that you want to communicate 10 times as much as you think you should. And when you think you've done too much, then double it. And that sounds like exaggeration, but we just have to work toward communicating. Someone else said, they said vision, vision leaks. I added to it vision leaks and values drift. So over time, here's the vision, here's the vision, here's the vision, here's the values.

And hopefully the vision and the values will remain mostly constant. But then the strategy is totally okay over time to tweak it, to change it. If we're doing it every five months, it's probably way, way too often. but it's kind of like if I'm driving from Oklahoma City to Tennessee to see you, I may need to reroute a couple times because I made a wrong turn. That's okay. If we're communicating clearly and we say, hey, we thought this was going to work and it's really not or we need to change some directions, that's okay as long as the values and the vision

stays constant. That's one thing. And then at another level, that's kind of strategy on the personal level consistency. See, that's a whole other conversation. But I believe that almost every great leader has some righteously constant activities in her leadership or his leadership. And that they could be anything. But even like sporadic, artistic people who you never can nail down and aren't good at keeping a schedule, they've got some constants. You're going to see over and over again.

So what you want to do in your leadership is find out what are the consistent rhythm? that help make me function at the highest level. What are the rhythms that give me clarity of thought? What are the rhythms that keep me healthy? What are the rhythms that keep me pleasant to be around? And you've got to fight for consistency in those things. When you don't have them, we become irritable. We become exhausted.

We become difficult to be around. We frustrate other people. And so in our personal lives, no matter what your personality type is, you're artistic, your free flow and whatever, who cares. You've got to find the rhythms that matter to you and keep those constant and consistent. And then the strategy, I hope there's some variety to it over time because I don't know anybody. As fast as the world changes now, you can't keep it right for 10 years. And then the values and the vision, like I said, we're going to keep those as constant as possible.

Well, I just had this thought, as you were saying that. And this is kind of my, I take, you know, monologue of something that somebody says and then kind of try to get it into a bumper sticker that I can kind of latch on to. And the bumper sticker in my mind right now is that discipline is not a personality style. You agree? A thousand percent. You know, it's like you could be a free spirit. You could be artistic. Yet there's still these constant things that if you will have the discipline to figure out how you work and then continue to, you know, it's going to be different than how somebody else.

works of a different personality style, but we're still responsible as leaders to show up consistently in spite of our nuances and quirkiness. Yes. Yeah, there has to be certain constants or people can't follow us. You know, I'm trying to write a book on discipline right now. And my publisher, who's a fantastic partner, and we've done lots of books together, is pushing back and keeps telling me people don't want, they don't like the word discipline. They don't want to be discipline.

Discipline sounds hard. And I'm trying to figure out a way to put it that, like, discipline. Discipline is your friend. There's a joy in discipline. I think it was Jocko who wrote the book, Discipline is freedom. It's totally freedom. And it doesn't mean that you have to be a rigid, hyper-organized, boring person to be disciplined. You could be, like you said, it's not a personality type. But there's a good definition we use here some is discipline is choosing what you want most over what you want now. and everybody wants something most and everybody else wants something now and sometimes we want them at the same time I want to be in good shape and I want that donut you know I want all I want six of those

donuts and so in in some former fashion in your leadership to be a leader that people will follow there's there's going to have to be some areas of discipline where you choose consistently this is who we are this is consistently what we stand for this is consistently what we believe this is consistently what we as a group of people choose to want most over what may be easier or what may look more appealing in the moment over what we want now. And so yes, work in your own area, whatever your personality type, to find those rhythms. It was Do Higg in the book, The Power of Habit. Highly recommend. He talks about keystone habits. What are those habits in your life that the presence of them triggers cascading other positive habits. And when those things are

not there, those keystone habits, they trigger more negative behavior or the lack of good behavior. And we talked about it before we came on. You said, and I think we both agree for us, going to the gym is one of those disciplines that it triggers me to also eat good and then go to bed earlier and wake up earlier and do my Bible plan. And what's that? It's like a force multiplier. Like everything else gets better when I'm doing these behaviors. You know, we see this all the time in personal finance. You know, when we talk about having a budget, most people that have never done a budget,

they hear constraints, they hear oppressed, they're taking all the fun away. But what people figure out is after a few months of budgeting, they actually have more money than they thought they did. And they have more control over their financial destiny. And that same thing is true in really any aspect. perspective of discipline. It's kind of frustrating that the stigma about that word discipline in our society and what you're saying about with your publisher is that it's like a thing we want to avoid. I think it's just an unenlightened perspective because once you figure out how much

discipline actually serves you and is not your master, you learn to love discipline. It's your friend. Yes, it is. Yeah. And it's a lovely said too about the finances because it's it's not being rigid, then when you go out and, you know, spend something on what you enjoy, you planned for it and you're not going into debt to do it. And it's a lot more pleasant expense than one that has interest tied on the backside of it. Well, and the other thing, I think people may feel like they have to be perfect with it. You know, I mean, my wife and I've been doing a monthly budget for over a decade now. We've never hit it perfectly. There's been months we've gotten an A minus, but an A minus on a really great plan is 10x better than no plan at all.

And I think the same is true in business and strategic planning. If you avoid this stuff because you feel like you have to have a perfect plan and then execute it perfectly, you're never going to get there. I mean, it's more of a directional thing that gives us a framework. But I've never found that we just, you know, everything just lines up and then we just nail it, you know, in the quarter and whatever our objectives are. We're always red trending down on something. But if we got a bunch of green trending up, you know, then that kind of washes out and we're better off for it. Yeah, I think it's great just to give yourself permission not to be perfect because then if you, it's kind of like I'm 53 years old. And I just, I told you before we started, I started taking jiu-jitsu lessons at the age of 52, which seems really, really old to start something like that.

And I'm not very good, but guess what, I'm getting better. So if I put the expectation on myself that I've got to be great in six months, I'm not going to go compete. I'm not going to go train. But because I've got grace for myself, I do show up. The same is true with the budget. The same is true with any kind of strategy for your business. If you tell yourself it's got to be perfect, then you're not going to sit down and put pen to paper or finger to create a budget. And so that permission to be close and celebrate close is a freeing and permission giving.

idea. Well, and I think as leaders, we have to embody that for the team and make sure they don't feel like we're micromanaging all the way down to the penny and that we're celebrating energy and direction and heart more than perfectly hitting the desired outcome. Yes, yes. Then it's a fun place to work rather than a rigid, legalistic, dogmatic place, yeah. So when a team member is not executing, you know, earlier we talked about coming out of a strategic planning session or an offsite, You mentioned something that's very key. I want to repeat it. Every action has to have an owner. Who's going to do what by when? Because if you don't have that, there's nothing to hold people accountable to. And people assume someone else will do it. I mean, if it's not assigned to me, I've got busy life over here that I've got to get back to. And so I'm not likely to pick that up and be the champion of that unless it's explicitly called out, Daniel, you're going to go do these things, right? And in the next check-in, you're going to have an update. Oh, okay, now I'm on the hook. When somebody, maybe isn't executing. There's a couple things that could be off.

We could have the wrong strategy. They maybe don't have the resources. Sometimes it's them. How do we discern when we've got the wrong person versus the wrong strategy? And that can get sticky because you talked about empowering champions and we want to believe in our people. Yet there's times we have to evaluate and go, maybe this person isn't the person to pull this off.

Yeah. I think it's a really good way to approach it because a lot of times, we tend to blame the people downline rather than sometimes looking at the systems that we created or the systems that we allowed. And so it could be there's a bad system. Maybe we didn't give them the resources. Maybe we asked for too much, didn't give them enough time. So if you go in with the attitude to learn and to truly dissect and discern, what do we have,

did we not give you what you needed? Was it unfair expectation? If you get through all that and consistently you recognize that the purpose, you recognize that the person isn't delivering, and it really is on that leader. Then what you do is you go into coaching mode, and for a lot of leaders, this feels awkward. What I always try to tell them is that whenever someone coaches me, it's because they believe I can get better. And if they've written me off, they're not going to coach me. So anytime I'm coaching someone is because I believe in them. and the better a play in sports, if you're coaching a little league, you know, T-ball team,

there's probably one coach and 14 kids running around. When you get into the majors, each position has a coach, not just one for 14 players, but there's a pitching coach and there's a batting coach. And so the better a player is, the more coaching they're going to get. So if we can create in our culture, the idea that, When we're correcting and coaching, that's not a bad thing. That's actually a good thing. It communicates value.

So we're going to start there. If a player's not getting it done and we're bringing coaching in, then you're not in trouble. We're trying to help you get better. Then what I always try to do is people are really afraid of anything that feels like confrontation. And so what we're going to do, Daniel, is not confront, but again, coach. And if there's a player really not doing well, what I like to do, I think it was the book, crucial conversations. I wish I could remember the term, but you start off with statements of what's not happening. And so you tell the person really clearly because they're nervous. If you're their boss,

Daniel walks into the room, like, oh my gosh, am I losing my job? Am I going to get yelled at? What did I do wrong? You tell them, hey, what I want you to know is you're not in any trouble at all, and you kind of laugh. You're not getting fired at all. When you walk out of here, you're going to feel real good. You're not in trouble. So they're able to breathe a sigh of relief and say, okay, now they can listen. If they're afraid of the hammer dropping, they're not going to listen. So you establish that. And then what you do is you're really direct. And the most loving thing you can do is tell the truth.

And you start and you say something like, you're not hitting our expectations. And it's just that clear. You're missing the target. And then depending on how serious it is, you go ahead and just super lovingly say, we're going to we're going to um we're going to um i believe in you i'm going to try to help you change and if you and i'm going to give you some coaching and then you're really clear here's specifically what needs to happen by when here's what i'm going to do for you and so you set all that up your really really clear clarity we need this to happen by such and such date we're

going to get you a mentor or i'm going to go through a book with you or we're going to meet every single week or whatever it is and then you just tell them um and if things don't change in the next 90 days, then we are going to have to make a change. What you just did right there is one of the most life-giving things you could do. You weren't mean, you were clear. I think it was, I think Dave said in our podcast, clarity is kind when I interviewed him. Clarity is kind. And that's what you're doing. You're letting them know you're not, this kind of behavior is not acceptable and it can't continue. But here's exactly specifically what we want. And we need to see this by such and such time. And here's how I'm going to help you get there. And if you don't

get there, then we're going to make a change. So then as you're coaching them over the next 90 days or so is real clear every week, they're winning or they're not. And if they win, you celebrate it like crazy. I'm so proud of you're doing great. This is awesome. You're hitting it. Where you go? Keep on. Man, this is fantastic. And you're helping them feel the win. You're sharing the win with them. And if they're not, it gets really, really clear, which is, hey, you know, I told you that we had to get here by this point and you're not there. And so then that conversation is actually not hard because you've already had the clear conversation.

And that's not mean, that's not a domineering leader. That's a good, clear, loving, caring leader. And people will respect that if you'll tell them the truth. Well, and it's a good way to serve them. Because if you've been that clear by the time, if it gets to the point where they're not cutting it and they do need to be let go. They're not surprised. You've been so clear that they're kind of like, yeah,

and we've even had this here where we've done it really well. Like they come in a week before you're about to schedule the meeting to have the final, and they're like, hey, it feels like I'm not making the turn. And you're like, yeah, we're about to talk to you about that. But that's brilliant. You know what I mean, it's so great that they understood what was expected, because the worst thing is we have an expectation in our mind as a leader, and we're assuming they can read our mind.

And they don't have the opportunity to rise to the occasion. And all of a sudden, they're blindsided with this bad news that they got to go. And in that case, it really, I would say it wasn't their fault. It was our fault as a leader that they didn't perform. No. And that was my story for the first probably five years of my leadership, which is people would frustrate me. They weren't getting it done, okay, someone. And I wouldn't have the courage or the care to tell them.

and I would tolerate it until the point where I finally had too much, and then I'd come in and say, we're done. And they're like, what? They're blindsided. And that's really, really bad leadership. And that's pretty common in our organizations if we don't create a culture that we crave helpful feedback. We value coaching.

We see feedback in coaching not as correction, but as an expression of love and care. And that's what we do on a team. I think it is common. And we've hit on the two reasons. I mean, I think we have a misperception about what kind is. That misperception is that if we lay up a little bit or we kind of soft-pedal the feedback, that somehow that's being kinder when the truth is we didn't give them enough objective feedback for them to do something about it.

And then the second one is that we don't take that time and walk through a process and coach them. And we have found, I'm sure you've seen this too, many people will rise up to the coaching. I mean, it's very rare that this ends in some kind of a termination if we do it right. Way more often than not right. And then the other thing, Daniel, I'll tell our leaders is like if you've got someone that reports to you and they're consistently a problem, they're a problem at this meeting and six months from now and a year from now and 18 months from now, eventually they're no longer the problem, right? Eventually, you're the problem because you haven't either helped them rise to the task or you haven't. found a better seat for them on the bus. So, you know, ultimately it's my responsibility to help people get there or to help them find

the right place for them to be. And so that's why, like we talked about before, leadership is so important no matter what field you're in. We've been talking about coaching our teams. I know for you, coaching as a concept is really important. You go to Jiu-Jitsu. You've got to coach. I imagine it's a professor who teaches.

And, you know, I've got a lot of coaches in my life and I've benefited a lot. I mean, I've got built-in coaching with Dave as my leader and an operating board. But I've got a coach for my fitness. I've got a coach for counseling stuff that I go to. I've got to, you know, I've just had these experiences where when somebody's speaking into my life, even though I'm the senior leader of my area, I still need coaching. I'm curious for you along the way, what have been meaningful coaching experiences that you've had, where you saw breakthroughs in your own leadership as a result of having a coach in your life. Gosh, I'm trying to think of how transparent to be.

So first of all, I'm going to go ahead and go here, be real transparent. But first I'll say, I love what you said because you've got coaches for different areas of your life. And what I see a lot of times is in kind of emerging leaders or leaders who want to grow, they say, I want a mentor. And for them, it's kind of like a one-size-fits-all. And they're going to help me in my marriage and my finance. and my leadership and my parenting and my writing and my health and that just you're just not going to find that person. And so I would, you know, we could talk for a long time about how do you find mentors, how to get the best out of them. And I won't do that unless you want to. But yeah, give yourself permission to find real targeted and specific people and then don't call them mentors until later because I puts pressure on them. Just go learn from them, serve them, take notes, ask questions, and learn. But to answer your question, And I was trying to think about how transparent to be. When I did entree leadership last, was it July?

And we had, you know, like so many business owners, we, you know, we had to shut the church down back in March. And it was gone. It was closed March, April, in May, and trying to reopen in multiple states. And we had the, I don't want to say, the racial, racial, We became aware of the racial tension that was there. And it became a real issue that leaders needed to speak into. And I was trying to do that. And I was exhausted, overwhelmed.

And I came to Entry leadership, and Dave just took me aside and spoken to me. He's been a friend, but it was more of a fatherly tone and said, you've got to take control of your schedule. You've got to stop responding to everything. And it was just one of those times. It was not something that was new, but coming from someone at that moment that I admire and respected it. It shook me out of my days. And it was a game changer. Like I walked away from that event with a different resolve and a different perspective to quit being a victim to what everyone else expected me to do or not do and to come back in and just to lead with confidence.

So that was one of, you know, many times that I had a leader. And it wasn't a six-month process. It was a 20-minute conversation. And that's what it can be when you're around people. And the great thing was he was generous with his advice. And I was in a place where I could listen. And I just tell people, don't miss the nuggets that are around you. I had another thing.

I won't name drop, but there's a well-known business. owner that most of our listeners would know of or know of his brand. I was interviewing him and told him the same thing I told you. I said, I'm trying to write on discipline, but my publisher's not like the theme. And he looked at me, almost disappointed. And he said, since when do you listen to what your publisher say about how to write on you? You know what? So I'm going to find a way to package this in a way that it is so important.

And so, but that was a question he could have asked and I could have missed the moment had I not been paying attention. Don't miss the moment. You've got life-changing moments with mentors and examples that could happen all the time. And it doesn't have to be a three-month process. It could be one question. Since when do you start listening? And for the record, I like my publishers a lot.

They're great. I'm glad you do. Because I was going to say, I think Ramsey Press would help you out with that book. No, I'm totally committed to them. But I do believe in this topic. A lot. You know, I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems like, and it's been my experience, that with coaching and mentorship, the bigger you get, the more you need it. We've got all these things that we now have to operate. We've got hundreds of team members now that are vying for our attention. We're more distracted or at least have more opportunities to be distracted. And yet we still are trying to figure out how to grow and have a strategy and have a plan. Some of that's a little. easier earlier on in a way. You have less resources, but you also don't have all this stuff

that's existing that has to be operated. The bigger we get, and the more that we've got a little bit of a notch on our belt that we can point to and say, I think I know what I'm doing, we really need somebody that can push us and keep us humble and keep us hungry. Yes, I agree 100%. And in the early years, you often don't even know what you don't know. And so the longer you lead, the more you recognize, it was funny is I'm probably a better leader now with the experience, but I actually have less confidence in my knowledge than I did in the past. In years past, I spoke with more absolutes, and I just thought I was right. And I probably am better just because of time in the game, meaning I've seen quite a bit and worked with lots and lots of people. So I've got the reps, but I'm just not quite as sure of myself.

And it's what my judicious coach says, his goal with me is to help me grow both in confidence and humility at the same pace. And I think it's a great thing for leaders to work at us. We want to both grow in confidence and humility at the same pace. Again, to be super transparent. Yes, I'm seeking out mentors like that moment with Dave. And then I've got a business leader that just pours into my life and helps me think organizationally. When I'm thinking 36 locations, he's thinking 360.

So it's a totally different game. And then about probably two and a half years ago, I hired a performance psychologist just to work with me. And not just to do the traditional therapy, but to do it in such a way that would help me perform at a higher capacity. And so that's, you know, call it what it is. I'm seeing a counselor. and that counselor's, you know, he's made a real difference in me understanding where my weaknesses are, where my vulnerabilities are, how to tap into the strengths, and to perform at a higher capacity without a bigger tax on my energy, my body, my creativity.

I'm curious, I'm not sure I've heard the phrase of performance psychiatrists. He said a psychiatrist? Yeah, performance psychologist, yes. Psychologist. Yes. I mean, I understand counseling. And I've heard about professional athletes like a golfer who has a mental coach. I mean, they're not even talking about their technique. They're talking about their mindset. Is it that type of thing where they're helping you understand why you make decisions the way you do and challenging, you know, if you're responding from feeling based or from an objective centered place? Like, what's the nature of that conversation? Yes. So this is, I'm really fortunate to. to work with this person. He specializes in, like, top-ranking military officials and then pro athletes, Olympic athletes and such.

And so what he does is he'll, like he tests me, and then he compares me against the top percent in other fields. And so it's not just certainly he doesn't specialize in pastor. I'm the only pastor that he works with. And what that does is just to be, to say this as humbly as I can, the people that are listening right now, very likely think in a different, think at a different level than people who are just listening to a sports podcast or cooking podcast or whatever. And I hope everyone has their freedom to listen to those types of podcasts. But business owners and business leaders feel a

different sense of responsibility. And so he works with people who are the top of those levels. And so what he's done with me has shown me where I do stand out compared to the best in other fields and where I'm incredibly vulnerable and why I hit pain points that are frustrating to me or limit my capacity. And then we get into the whole, I mean, you know, it's the whole like, you know, your childhood and, you know, what kind of trauma does you experience? And we do go into that kind of stuff to have an understanding. But then there's a real performance function. How do you think in the moment? How do you acknowledge what was there and take what many would see as a weakness and turn it into a strength. And that's like a lot of what might make me

or the leaders around me good would be some things that are kind of extremes or even like dysfunctions meaning, you know, so we work a lot and that can be bad if it's not kept in check or we can value a high work ethic culture and we can get a heck of a lot done if we're smart with it. If it's unchecked, we could all end up losing everything that we care about. But if we do it in a way that's healthy, learn how to rest well, to recover well, and that's one thing I've been working on is, you know, what does my recovery look like? And in the same way, I would think about recovering after a workout, I'm going to think about recovering after producing content. So what is my work rhythms? What's my recovery? And so that's, you know, I hope I'm not boring people,

but we're looking at. I think it's really good. And I think it's really key because there's counseling is very in vogue these days. But the type that you're doing and what I've experienced is the objective of counseling is transformation that leads to more performance. And as leaders who care about people, leads to more service. And so it's about our ability to increase our impact and serve more people. There's kind of this space in counseling that's just this perpetual naval gate. And you talk about your childhood and your feelings to the point that you're just like that that's all there is.

And it sounds like you're saying it's like you go there so that you can get to a new destination. You go there so that you can have a breakthrough. Yes, yes. And again, I really, I'm afraid I'm going to bore people. But what happened is my counselor gave me just ridiculously stupid little assignments. And it was almost insulting to me. And then he kept giving it to me, kept giving it to me. and I got frustrated and I almost quit.

And then finally, I just said, I come to do these stupid little assignments. And what happened is I did four or five little things and altogether they started to change on mindset. What's an example of one of those? So like if I'm working for 12 hours on a sermon message, instead I'm going to work 10. Instead of waking up at like super early in the morning,

which I do sometimes, I'm going to force myself to stay in bed and try to produce the same amount. in the same part of time. Jiu-Jitsu was one of the things. What he wanted me to do is he wanted me to have an activity that disconnected my mind for an hour and got my heart rate consistently up above 120. And so, jih-jitsu wasn't the assignment, but it fits the assignment.

And so that's just like a mental break where I, you know, if I'm not on my game, I'll get my head crushed, you know. And so that was like, why would that matter? And all these little things together, taking, instead of, going eight weekends straight, going seven with a weekend off. You know, it's shaving. And all these little things together, I started coming out and going, I feel better. I think I'm thinking better.

And that's why I would just say to any leader, why would we ever be ashamed to get help? Why would we not seek out counseling and mentors? It's, I don't know anybody who's done something that's significant without the help of a lot of people around them. It's not something to be embarrassed of. I'd say it's something to passionately pursue those who can help us become better. We started out talking about planning and strategic planning, and I'm noticing through our conversation we've drifted into kind of this very personal space. And I don't think it's an accident because I know in my own experience, the planning that I've done is only as good as I am as a healthy person. And the

creativity and the vision and the ability to have the confidence to go forward with a big, daunting, five-year vision or whatever the case may be, it doesn't really work if we're not solid and grounded as leaders. So it sounds like you're in a really deep-rooted, solid place in your leadership right now. What is that doing for your vision? What is that doing for strategic planning? What's that bringing to life in the organization for you right now? I think to take a step back, one of the leaders on my team, he said, he quoted one of the race car drivers and said, basically to win a race, you have to be, you have to go really fast and you have to be almost out of control, but never completely out of control. And so I think as a leader to really excel,

we're going to always be pushing it, but if we push it too hard, we crash. And so I think that's, I just kind of want to say to the leaders out there, give yourself permission to be different, to care a little more, to maybe work a little harder, to be a little more demanding, to be a little more passionate, to have higher standards. But at the same time, you just have to last. If, you know, people are snapping all around us, and especially in this season, in 2021, with all that we have going on in the world right now, it's the most complicated season for most of us to lead in. And so we have to have the parameters. We have to have relationships. We have to, if you're married, making that marriage a priority really, really matters,

having our children in a place that we feel like they're in the right trajectory, really, really matters. Having our finances, it really, really matters. Having our health, it really, really matters. And so you've got to define what those big things are and then just work your brains out to push it to the limit of production without ever breaking some of those big things. And it's going to be, you have to really be careful. or if you get in the red line in any area,

the warning signals go off. You just have to pay careful attention to it. All that said, long road to your question. What is it doing for me now? I would just say, I'm enjoying it again. In last March, April, May, June, it was beating me. And now I wake up and I may not be winning every fight,

but I'm looking forward to every fight. I've got the energy for every fight now. And so if people can find those big things, which is the physical recovery, intimacy and your best relationships, a few good friends. You don't need a lot, just a couple of really good friends. Some place you go to enjoy to disconnect your mind, spiritual refreshment. And those things, then you can come to work with like an attack attitude. And it's fun. I guess it's fun working hard.

It's fun lifting the standard. fun breaking barriers. But if you're not healthy in those other places like I was struggling in that time, those things can break you. So holistically, less work to bring our, not just be profitable, but to be healthy,

to be striving to be our best in all those major areas. Well, man, I'm excited to see you again at our upcoming Entry Leadership Summit event. Always a huge hit. And I know you're going to bring some great stuff. I'm also very excited about your new book, winning the war in your mind, change your thinking, change your life. I've skimmed it. Your team was kind enough to send me an advance copy.

And I can tell this is one. I'm just going to eat every single word. But a little word about the new book, why you're excited about it and what you want people to know as they head out to pick up this book. Well, first, my publisher was really excited about that one, so we'll say that. Yeah. And so this one, this is a, this book is a result of about a five-year, journey. And what I recognized is that my mind, you know, the life you have in many ways is a reflection of the thoughts you think. Your life is generally moving in the direction of your

strongest thoughts. The same is true of your leadership, your leadership, your organization. It's a reflection of how you think. And I did kind of a thought audit and looked at a lot of my inner dialogue and I didn't like what I was saying to myself. And so I went on a journey. Part of it was with my counselor as well of really renewing my mind and recognizing any place where my where I'm creating unhealthy, unhelpful neural pathways. And as you know, science teaches us the same thing that scripture teaches. As a person thinks so he is. And science says, the more you think a thought, the easier it is to think that thought. And so any place where I had unhealthy thoughts, and there were a lot of them in my leadership and even in my own identity, I try to identify those and then replace it

with true and helpful thoughts. And so the book is really all about how do you do that? Most leaders, most people have a battle in their mind. And it's a battle we can't lose. Most battles in life are going to be won or lost in our mind before they're played out in our life. So I'm trying to help the reader identify. You know, you can't change what you don't name. So let's name it.

Let's confront it. And then let's change the way we think. And that'll change our families. It'll change our finances. It'll change the way we lead. the subtitle is change your thinking, change your life. And I believe that's not, that's not hype. It's real. Change your thinking, and it will change your life. Such an important topic, especially for leaders.

Craig Griselle, you're one of my favorite Instagram follows. And when I listen to you, I'm proud to be, the way you communicate makes me more proud to be a Christian, to be a leader, to be a father, and a husband. And you just have a gift of encouragement, but strength in the midst of that encouragement and I'm a better leader as a result of following what you're talking about. And guys, if you're not following Craig Rochelle, his podcast on leadership's amazing. Great Instagram follow as well to get little sermonettes and things that he's got going on. And definitely go out and pick up the new book, winning the war in your mind. This one's going to the top. I'm excited about it. So we'll look forward to seeing you coming up at Entree Leadership Summit. Until then, thanks for being

back on the Entree Leadership podcast. We love it every time you're here. Hey, Kent White, you're a fantastic interview and a world-class leader. It's always fun to talk to you, Dan. Well, my big takeaway from this conversation is that 90% of success is staying in the game. Showing up, outlasting the challenges, outlasting the competition, keeping your head in the game, and having a plan that keeps you on track. And I love how Craig talked about the things that keep us in the game are just a matter of intentionality. Creating this space to build a plan with our leaders, write it down, and then holding people accountable and empowering them.

Man, you can just tell Craig's the kind of guy that breathes life into his team. That's encouraging them with positivity, but also boldness and strength. And so I hope that's what you're doing as a leader. If you want to win, if you want to build a dynasty over 25 years, if you want to be the best in class,

the largest in your space, the way that Craig is in his, well, it's not that hard. He laid it out. It's simple. Have a plan. Have a vision. define the objectives with your team, prioritize the space to have these conversations and then

execute. Hold people accountable. Have the weekly meetings. Encourage people, course correct, and do this over and over and over. And guys, you know what? You may not feel like you're that great at it. I remember when I started doing it. I felt like I was fumbling through it all the time. I felt like I was missing stuff. But if you will just show up and exercise these muscles, you can get really, really good at it. And when you do, you're going to stay in the game. When you do, your team's going to stay in the game. When you do and the adversity comes,

you're going to have battle walls that are so strong that you cannot be penetrated and you will outlast the challenges. You will outlast the storms and you'll outlast the competition. That's how it works. And the key part of having the plan work in executing, as Craig mentioned today, is communication,

making sure the team knows the plan. Now, I've been guilty of having the plan in my head, and it's a brilliant plan in my mind, but nobody knows what I'm thinking. And I find out that it's not so brilliant once I start to communicate it. And I get that feedback. It's like, oh, we've got to work on this a little bit. So communication is the key. And to help you guys out with that, the Entree leadership team, our coaches, and all the business owners that we've worked with have fed into this really cool tool that we're going to give you for free. It's called the Communication Field Guide. As Guide's designed to help you get started in creating a culture of communication.

It includes things like how to handle difficult conversations, how to cast vision, how to get the team to understand what the plan is and how they're part of the organization fits in that plan to make sure that they're driving it forward. All that and more. It even includes really good tips about how to get the most out of meetings. Yes. No more death by meetings, people. Let's have meetings that push our plan forward. There's a novel idea. So to get this free guide, click on the link in the show notes.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Entry Leadership Podcast. Hey, if you know somebody that would also enjoy this episode, send them a link. Share it with them. Thanks for doing that. As you know, you can also watch interviews and highlights from the podcast on YouTube, another fun place to check us out. And look, if you're a small business owner between two and 200 team members, we'd love to have a live conversation with you, get some feedback on the show,

and ask you a few questions about how we can improve and make it even better. If you want to help us out with that, click on the link in the show notes to fill out a brief survey to schedule a call with our producer Tim Hull. You can follow us on social media at Entree Leadership. You can also follow me on Instagram at Daniel Tarty. This episode was produced by Tim Hull. It was edited and mixed by Will Rutter. I'm your host, Daniel Tarty,

and on behalf of the entire Entree Leadership team, thank you for listening. Until next time, keep learning and keep leading. If you enjoy this podcast, you should check out other great podcasts from the Ramsey Network, like Borrowed Future. Not so fun fact,

America has a $1.6 trillion student loan crisis, and it's out of control. I'm George Camel, host of the Borrowed Future podcast, where we uncover the underbelly of the student loan industry and show you what you can do about it. It'll inspire you to see that it is possible to avoid student loans and graduate college debt-free. Listen to Borrowed Future wherever you listen to podcasts.