EntreLeadership - Over 100 Years of Leadership Advice in 97 Minutes

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

🪑 Watch more episodes of Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman In this episode, Ken sits down with three leadership legends: John Maxwell, Patrick Lencioni and Dave Ramsey. Join the conversation to learn why successful people fail, how to be a boss people trust, and what the future looks like for today’s leaders Explore more from Ramsey Network:  🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 🎙️ The Ramsey Show   💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🧠 The Dr. John Delony Show 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel   Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey folks, Dave Ramsey here, and today on the Entree Leadership podcast, we're doing something a little bit different. I do a lot of interviews, but this one was special. I recently joined my friend Ken Coleman's show, Front Row Seat. And if you're a leader, this is one you don't want to miss. For the very first time, I sat down with Ken and two of the best minds in leadership, John Maxwell and Patrick Lynchione. For a conversation, you will not hear anywhere else. else. We dug into the principles that every leader needs to know how to build trust, lead with clarity, and multiply your impact. John shared incredible wisdom on influence. Pat unpacked the importance

of organizational health, and I got to talk about the lessons I've learned leading Ramsey Solutions for decades. It's packed with insights that you can start applying today. So if you've ever wanted a front row seat to a master class on leadership from the most trusted voices out there. And this is it. Enjoy. Three questions that followers ask of their leaders. First question is, do you like me? Number two, can you help me?

And the last one is the deepest of all leadership. Don't affirm somebody in something that's not good for them. To anticipate people's objections. But you have to ask. You can't say, I know what you're thinking, but you can go, hey, if I were you, I might be worried about this or this or this. anything else I'm missing, that's a vulnerable thing. That's gold. There are folks that are wounded, and they're not going to trust no matter what happens. So the best thing you can do there is don't have them. Dave Ramsey, John Maxwell, Patrick Blanchione. For the first time, three of the most

trusted voices in leadership meet for a conversation you won't hear anywhere else. It's a master class on building trust, leading with clarity, and multiplying your impact. I've never had a person to tell me the most important lesson ever to learn life that didn't have failure in it. You can go from failure to success, but you can't go from excuses to success. You can't do it. The CEO of a company got caught on camera at a concert with a woman that wasn't his wife. And everybody thinks it's kind of funny because they commented on it and it's all over the internet. I feel so bad for that man because we recently did the largest study at Ramsey Solutions of net worth millionaires over 10,000. And one of the really interesting pieces of

data that jumped out. Millionaires who identified as loving their work, they genuinely love the work they did, report a 58% higher net worth than those that didn't. I wanted you all to comment on that why you think that data bears out that way. It's hard to be good at something that you hate. You're right, Dave. No one ever quit doing something they're good at. You quit what you're bad at.

I mean, that's where the passion is in loving your work, and the passion is what makes the work great. An indifferent person doesn't do much as far as changing people's lives or anything else. It's got to be somebody that really cares. And what's interesting, we don't teach that specifically in high schools and colleges. It's just go get a degree so you can get a good job. And so many people wonder why they can't break through and become wealthy. Well, there's a part of it that's taught.

I mean, what happens is passion increases your creativity, right? Because you lean in, you're practicing, you're working, you hone your craft. Like all of us do work on stage for decades. And thank God we're much better now than when we started. We've honed it over the years. Could be worse. And so, yeah. And so there's some of it in the old days suck bad.

But yeah. But we've worked on that because we all three enjoy the interaction with the live audience. Correct. And so that, the creativity increases with, with the passion. But what is taught loosely in the last couple of generations is follow your passion. And our friend Mike Rowe just really gets ticked off about that because it doesn't include calluses. Well, and calluses are fine when you're doing what you're, you know, everybody gets calluses. You want to get calluses doing the thing that you like.

It doesn't feel like a punishment. It feels like a trophy, you know. Sure. You know, when I was a kid, I really early in my life, thank God for this. I remember I found a book called Do What You Love and the Money Will Follow. Now, I wasn't raised that way. My mom and dad didn't go to college. And so it was just all about, you get benefits and you make enough money to buy a house. But I remember when I went out and started my own company, my dad, God rest his soul, said, oh, but Pat, you're an executive and you

have benefits and don't do this. I was like, Dad, I got to do what I love. Later on, he was like, yeah, that was the right thing. But we have to teach. I had a kid come to me the other day who's a freshman in college. And he goes, I want to go into full-time ministry when I get out of school. But I want to get a college degree in something that will help me in that. And maybe that if I need to work, because St. Paul had to make tents in order to do that. And I said, what is studying? He said, finance. And I looked at his Myers-Briggs and his working genius and everything else. I was like, you're going to hate that. He goes, yeah, I'm not interested in it. I said, don't do that. Right. He changed his major. Yeah. Well, the flip side of this is,

John was talking about talent. You were talking about talent, doing things that you're good at. When you hear that phrase follow your passion a lot of people miss that and they'll go for something that they love but they have no talent in it at all 100% let me be contrary in here because i think because we've all heard you know do what you love and it's going to be everything's going to be wonderful i don't think that's true i think it's a little overrated really uh i mean i love i'm passionate about golf but i have a problem in fact the problem showed up the other day when a guy looked at me He said, you only have one problem with your golf game. I kind of got excited.

I thought, anybody can handle one. I said, well, what is? And he said, well, you're too close to your ball after you hit it. You know, well, crap, I'm not going to, that's not going to help me. You know what I'm saying? You're too close. Well, but am I passionate about it? Do I love it?

Of course I love it. But I'm not any good at it. And I tell people, if you love something you're not good at, don't make it a career. Right. make it a hobby. In fact, you can destroy the love of a hobby by trying to make it a career. When people say do what you love,

I think it comes down to micro-thic, like what kind of work in the moment? Do you enjoy talking to people? You can apply that in a whole. It's not about, because I talk to really young kids, and I say, what do you want to do? And they're like, I want to make video games. It's like, no, you want to play video games

and get paid for it. So I totally agree. It's not what hobby do you love. It's like, what kind of stuff do you like to do? Will Guadara, your friend, loves cooking. Well, he made a career out of it, but that's not for everybody. Well, let's talk about leadership for a second, because the natural progression, certainly in the American workplace is you get promoted two, maybe three times, and then what happens is they promote you into some type of a management leadership role,

and you don't really want it. You're not committed to leading people. You don't enjoy it, yet you've got this pressure to say yes to the promotion. Let's talk to leaders who could be honest with themselves and go, I don't enjoy this. What do you say to them? I give an A for honesty. Me too. It's like taking the best salesman on the lot and making him a manager of sales. Right.

And all of a sudden you find out that he doesn't manage well. He just sells. And you lost your best salesperson. You lost your best salesperson. And you're paying them a lot more than you need to be paying him for that whole process. I've always said, let the growth of what you're in determine what you're, what your benefits are going to be and your blessings are going to be. And sometimes a promotion is really not a promotion at all

if it takes you out of your gift zone for sure. Well, the mistake we make in business is that we confuse the fact that they're good at sales. Yes. And we thought that makes them good at leading. It's two different skill sets. Two different. Completely different skill sets.

And so if you're going to move that person, they have to have a desire to learn how to become a leader. because now they've got to put the training wheels back on. They don't know what the flip they're doing. And, you know, it's the same thing we get confused. Like, because someone is in a movie, we think that we're, they think we're supposed to care what they think about life.

Yes. Yes. And, you know, it's the same thing. It's wrong skill set. Yeah. You're in a movie, which means you learn to play someone else. You act what? You don't even play yourself.

You play someone else. And now I'm supposed to care what you think about politics. I couldn't know. And how do we know whether you're speaking for you or for someone else? Yeah, I think. You know, so, yeah, we've done this with tech guys on our team. The tech guys, they want to lead a squat because they're great at writing code. Well, that's a whole different skill set.

So you've got to go, you've got to lean into the new skill set if you're going to do that to be a leader. So you can choose, but leadership, I mean, we all three teach leadership. Totally. It's a skill, and I've heard you say this, and I've stolen it from you a long time ago that there are no born leaders. You go to the hospital, they say it's a little boy and little girl. They never say it's a leader. No, that's right. No born leaders.

Tactically, I think it's crazy not to have the three of you weigh in. If leaders of organizations and teams are watching and listening, and they feel that pressure to promote a high performer, and they feel like, hey, I've done that before. Tactically speaking, when you guys have taught and written about leadership training, what are they doing the moment to practically assess whether or not this high performer does have what it takes? just from a chemistry makeup and then be trained to lead. How do they know that this person's got it?

Well, I'm not sure you always know. I've had a lot of ones I knew, and when I put them where they were, I thought they should be, I knew that I shouldn't have done it. So I'm not sure you always know. I think somebody just has it pat, but I'll tell you what I do know. I know in promoting people,

and I've done this for many, many years, I've never promoted a person until they had trained their replacement. Because one of the things I learned to do is don't promote somebody and get a vacancy that you have to go find somebody. And so what happens is when you promote a person that has reproduced themselves, what you do know is that they have the ability to develop somebody. You don't know if they have the ability to develop a lot of people. But my whole thing has always been work yourself out of a job.

If you work yourself out of a job, I'll give you another one. But if you can't work yourself out of the job you have, pretty much I'm going to take it away from you. Because the way to reproduce leaders is to reproduce people that are under you. And that's how you kind of find. If they can't reproduce one, I wouldn't put them in position to reproduce some more. I mean, let's just find out, start with one and see if it's any good or not. You know, I'm kind of sitting here thinking, gosh, I should know the answer to this question.

The first thing I would do, though, about, I would go find out what their motive for one to be that leader is. Am I wanting to be large and in charge? Or am I wanting to serve? That's right. And that's your latest book motive. Yeah. The why.

But usually that's got to, for me, that's been someone that's emotionally immature. They might be young or they might be old, but they're at least emotionally immature because they're wanting it for selfish reasons. because leadership that isn't service-based, John Maxwell tells all that, you know, is not real leadership. Right. You know, what's interesting, though,

sometimes an organization creates a culture where they actually celebrate their leaders, which is upside down. Like, that's what success looks like. And it's like, no, you should celebrate the people that are contributing the most. And the leader's job is to do that. So if you've created a culture where becoming a leader

is seen as successful, more important, then you're actually going to attract those emotionally immature people. So I would say first, like, does this person think I'm going to think they're more important if I promote them? Secondly, do they really want to do the job of managing? Do you want to sit and listen to people's issues? Do you want to work them out? Do you want to coach people? And if they're interested in the title, not the actual work, do not do that. I agree. Well, that's back to where we started. Well, they're going to be mean. Yeah. Yeah. The opposite of that was the very first guy I ever hired. And I think all, I think everybody knows him in this row, was a guy named

Russ Carroll. And Russ had been in ministry and he'd been on the Jesus film project back in the day. Oh, my. With the Bill Bright. And so he came to work for me probably 30 plus years ago. And he worked for us for about 13 years and retired. And, but Russ came in, his first job when the very first guy ever hired was doing financial coaching, counseling, one-on-one. And so as we grew, you know, he'd been with me He was the first guy. I'm like, I want to reward the guy. I want to give you the opportunity. And so we had like other counselors now on board.

We had to have somebody lead the counselors. And we had a counseling department that developed with a P&L. And I said, Russ, you need to be like head of the counseling department. And he goes, you mean that I have to take care of all these people and I have to do the P&L and I have to do a budget? And I said, yeah, that's what it would be. And you'd make a lot more money and you'd be promoted. And he goes, oh, that would be leukemia to my spirit. Yeah, that honesty, that humility.

Don't you love that? He retired from us as a counselor. Never moved. And it was fabulous. But he's like, no, don't want that. Don't want to do that. I think to many people look at promotions as going somewhere instead of growing somewhere. And I promise you, if you grow into a situation, you can handle the next situation.

But if you go into it, you can't handle it. Who says, I mean, there has to be a way of showing that you're going to. you can take the next level and people, I tell people all the time, the way you can show, do the next level is that you grow into that. And so I think too many times we talk about, can they go with me? The question I always have is can they grow with me? Because so many times we know what it's like to hire somebody also and we outgrow them. And there comes a day where, I mean, people can help you at a certain level, but you get to another level, honestly, some really good people can no longer help you, not because they don't desire to help you,

it's because they just don't have capacity. Something just occurred to me, and based on what you said and you said, and that is that I'm not supposed to point my wife says, but I always do. Please do. We'll know who you're talking about. She's not here. We won't tell. Yeah, that's right.

But the thing about it is, it's like we like leading. I really do like leading. As I'm getting older, I'm realizing, this sounds silly, but not everybody. is like me. So sometimes, like, when you thought to him, you said, you should now take over this department. And I sometimes will hire somebody and manage them the way that I would like to be managed. And they're like, I don't want that. I'm like, you have all the freedom you want. You come up with your own job title. You figure it all out. And they're like, I don't like that. I'm like, what do you mean? That would be my favorite job. And they're like, I'm not like you.

And so you need to manage people, promote people based on who they are, not who we would be if we were in their situation. Very true. Very true. Hey, I want to tell you about my new sponsor, delete me. Here's a fact for you, and it's scary. Your personal data is everywhere on the internet, and I don't just mean your name. I'm talking about things you don't want out there, like your home address, phone number, names of your kids, and so much more.

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I want to stay real quick on this motive. I'd love for each of you to share, what do you think is a mandatory motive? We're talking about passion here for leading people. So what is one that's just mandatory? You've got to have it if you're going to truly love leading. Two things, not one. Go for it.

Because what we teach is everything rises on leadership, also falls on leadership. In other words, leadership is either the nicest thing that ever happens to a group of people or it's the worst thing that ever happens to a group of people. But I think there are only two things. one is leadership skills. You just, you have to have leadership skills. You have to be trained to lead. But I think also good values.

And I used to just do leadership skills. And one day I realized, well, when Enron happened at 2000, when all of a sudden what you put on the wall and what you walk isn't the same thing. And all of a sudden I realized, no, it's a values issue too. And the reason it's a values issue is the only thing that leaders have in common is that they see more than others see, and they see before.

They see a bigger picture, leaders always do, but they also see it quicker. And when I started off, man, 50-plus years ago now, you didn't have to see before. You just had to see more. But today, before is starting to replace more. Trust me, in the next 10 years, before will be prominent over more.

because the social media and all the things now that are AI and all. I mean, this is a day now, you know, the fastest person doesn't win the race. It's the person who started first. And this is going to be very key because here's what happens. If I see more than you and I see before you, it's what I call the leadership advantage. I'll go to win. I don't mean this unkindly. I'm going to win.

I saw more. I saw before. We come to the table, but I'm going to win. Now the question goes back to your motive book that was so good, Patrick. Great book. Thank you. I mean, the why? Why do you want to lead that Dave was talking about a month ago.

Now, watch this. If I see more than you and I see before you, I can win. Now the question is, when I know I can win, what am I going to do with that? Am I going to make a decision to win for you? or am I going to make a decision to win for me? And that's why motives are essential in leadership. Because if I motivate you, which leaders should do, I move us together for mutual advantage.

But if I manipulate you, I move you for my advantage. And the irony is that the best way for you to win is to cause them to win. Absolutely. That's the irony. Totally. And if you never get the credit for it. That's the inverted pyramid.

Well, yeah. I mean, if we come to table and, you know, You see more before I. So I come to the table and you win and I go away. And you come back and say, come on, let's do it. Something else. So I come back to the table and you win and I lose. About the third time you say, come on, let's go back to the table.

I said, I don't want to go to the table with you. You went all the time. It's like playing golf with you. Don't do that. You guys should play golf with me more. I was very nice. I just talked about my game. I didn't talk about your game.

I was so kind and so charitable. And now you are baiting me. Now you brought it up. But since you brought it up, no, I'm kidding. We've had some great times, I'll tell you. You know, there's a word that I've come to realize, and this is all about servant leadership, and servant leadership comes from Jesus, right?

And that is, I would say, if you're not willing to suffer more for the benefit of those other people, and I like to say suffer because there are moments in every leader, lots of them where you're like, this stinks, but it's for them. The personal economics of leadership are bad. If you're doing it because you're like, I'm going to get more. Yeah.

It's like you literally have to go, I'm going to take this job knowing that I will hurt more in order to protect them and that I will then take care of myself last. I had a mentor when I was from the 20s gave me great advice. Yeah. He said, there are no two good consecutive days in a leader's life. That's pretty good. Isn't that good? It's just, it wasn't. He was sparring.

Yeah, yeah. It's, I mean, it sounds so cynical and so, but I just, I've appreciated, let's put this way, 50 years later, I'm still remembering it. Why? Because it's difficult. It is not easy. I was being interviewed by a reporter asking stupid reporter questions. And she said, did you ever imagine that this Ramsey thing would get to be the size?

I'm like, of course I did. I mean, how many people are in debt? Of course. on market. Of course I knew it was going to be. What I didn't know is how much manure I was going to have to shovel. What I didn't know was I was going to have to learn how to lead instead of being a boss to get there. What I didn't know was that there's going to be a lot of pain and suffering in order to get the other. So the end of that story is not just I have to embrace the suffering and the pain. The part of the story that's good is that it's worth it.

Because it takes you where you want to go. Of course. But if you analyze it on any given day or week, you're going to look at it and go. Oh, no. And like my wife will tell you like, this is a lot of, this is coming at cost. Of course. But it's a cost worth. Yeah.

You always have to go beyond the immediate. If you live for the immediate, you're never, well, you're not a leader anyway. Be honest with you. But you have to always understand that the cause has to be bigger than you and more important than you. and it has to be in the long haul. The long haul. Leadership is long haul. There's no such thing as,

and I think that's part of the problem we have in so many areas of leadership such as government where it's turmoil, I mean, where you're in there for just brief periods of time in and out. You can't quick fix lives by just doing hit and miss leadership. Never before have we seen such distrust

in the American people to government officials, but also we're seeing it in the galley, State of the Workplace Report that came out early this year, a disconnect between what the rank and file employee team member is expecting versus what leaders are saying, we're delivering. And so there's a lack of trust. So the question of you three is how does a leader establish trust with their team in such an environment of distrust?

Well, I think it gets back to what we've been saying, and that is they need to know that you're, you're most interested in their benefit. And yes, Gallup says all these since we've seen all this, but go to good organizations, and they're not perfect. The best organizations are messy, but if you go to Ramsey, people trust leadership there. Yeah.

And yeah, maybe this is only 15% of companies, but that's what makes the top 15% great. People there, and I knew your company years and years ago, people trusted you. Yeah. So even though the macro says, people don't trust, go to the very best companies, and people go, yeah, we trust the leaders.

go to the best churches, go to the best schools. And it is the competitive advantage. But they need to know that you're willing to take on hard things for them. Well, the proof has to be in the pudding. Right. That's right. You're going to put their best interest at heart when you're making a decision. Whether or not they understand it at the moment.

Yeah. I mean, my kids, go brush your teeth. So you have some later. Right. You know? And they don't go brush your teeth. You go back, do it. Your toothbrush isn't wet.

I'm going to whoop you. Get up there and brush your teeth, right? They're not real sure I'm serving them right then. But I am actually doing it for their best interest because it's not going to affect me, unless I had to smell their breath. I mean, really, it's not going to affect me. Go do your studies, get your grades,

so you learn the discipline of academic rigor and do the stuff because that's going to carry you where you don't have to live in my basement later. So I'm trying to teach you how to live your life. Your best interest in heart when I'm parenting those kids. True. And the same thing's true of the team member. I look at them and go,

I can't move you into this, or I can't continue to keep you here if you continue in this behavior. Because I've got your best interest at heart. You're going to get sued and me sued with you. You're stopping this now. And, you know, and that's a problem. But you've got to do it with their best interest in heart, not just I'm going to protect myself against you. No, you got to learn how to do this thing, man. And I'm not going to please you all the time.

Exactly. So I was just telling Ken before we came out here. doesn't always feel like sweet, you know, it's not unicorns and skittles, baby. I mean, serving sometimes is true. Got a little edge to it. We got a new priest, a new pastor at my church this weekend. And he stood up, I loved it. I everybody else did too, but he loved it.

I mean, he stood up and he goes, hey, you guys, I just want you to know something. I'm not here to be your buddy. I'm here for you to go to heaven. And that's why I'm here. And it was like, yes. Because you know how somebody is like, well, I'm here to give you everything you want to go. we're going to make changes around here to get you to heaven. You might not like him at first, but that's my job.

And I might not like everybody. I'm going to love everybody. But I'm my job as to get, and I was just like, yes. But he's other-centered, not self-centered. Totally. In that, in that, quote, tough love. He would die so that I could go to heaven, but he's not going to tell me something I want to hear just to make me feel better.

I'll follow that guy. Trust takes time. Yes. I mean, when the person says, trust me, that's a nice phrase, but prove it. It takes time. And I think this is the big miss in a dysfunctional culture, that everything is for the moment.

And trust has to, you know, you have to earn that, you have to earn that trust. And I think that as I look at it, I mean, I remember about 12 or 13 years ago, I spoke for the opening session at the United Nations, and they asked me to speak to all the ambassadors. Oh, I did that too. No, I'm just decent.

I spoke to the opening. That was great. That was great. You know, you couldn't do that because you were on Mars at that time, remember? You were on Mars. You couldn't be. Yeah, that's great. So while you're asking yourself, how could you talk to ambassadors of countries, you know, 200 countries,

when they come from total different leadership cultures? And they want me to do two hours long. leadership. And so it took me a while. I mean, I had to work on this, but I came up with three questions that followers ask of their leaders, regardless of culture. First question is, do you like me? They just really want to know if you like them. You just, don't you want to follow somebody that likes you versus, do you like me? Yes. Number two, can you help me? Is it going to get any better? I mean, why would you follow a leader if they can't help you? And thirdly, can't trust you?

And the last one comes last. But it's the deepest of all leadership. And once that leadership can truly be trusted. You know, and it has to be tested to be trusted. But the first two without those. Oh, yeah. Those are variables we can control. I'll tell you another variable.

I've learned the hard way is there are folks that have been through stuff that are wounded, and they're not going to trust no matter what happens. So the best thing you can do there is don't hire them. Yeah. Yeah, that's very true. And encourage them to go get healing. You know, it's like we had a dog one time that we got from the pound. They call them rescue dogs now.

Yeah, sure. And that dog, I never raised a hand of that dog, but you walk up to it flex. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because of what had happened to it before. For me. There wasn't anything I could ever do to get that healed. And so the poor dog is sad. And people's spirits sometimes, they come to you damaged and they're just, you know,

they're never, they're always looking for what's wrong. And it's not going to happen. Better off just not have that in the building. Right. You're right, Dave. It's like people say, well, how do you lead everyone? I said, oh, no, I've never let everyone. Everyone doesn't follow.

You know what I'm saying? So leadership has a, you know, there's a limitation. There's a limitation to anything that you do. And you're right, whether it's trust or whatever part of leadership there is, there's just some people that you've come to a conclusion that you can't lead them. They're not supposed to be on our team. Maybe somebody else's the team. Not supposed to be on my team.

This is so hard because people that are leaders think, well, if somebody rejects me and leaves, or I have to make them available to the market, as a friend of mine says. Our HR director says we had to help them participate with inevitable. With the other. That's a guy named Bobby Herrera. What a great book. But the point is we're not supposed to be. Not everybody's meant to be in our organization.

Not everyone's supposed to follow us. Of course. And when we feel like we've failed, I would say this, you're failing if nobody ever leaves. If I need people, I can't lead people. Oof. Because if I really need you, Dave, then I can't lead you because I'm going to do everything I can to please you. If I'm going to do everything I can to please you, I mean, I've never known.

never known leadership that made people happy all the time. And it doesn't. So, but if I need you, I really can't lead because now I'm going to become codependent on you. And now, now, going back to the buddy, it's like your priest. Yeah, I like that. You know, I didn't come to be your buddy. I came to take you to heaven. Well, as a leader, our responsibility is to be the best friend. It is to be the best leader we can't for it. There's a difference. I talk to you a lot about making sure that you're bringing your best to work. But it's hard to bring your best when you're dragging through the day because you didn't sleep well the night before. And for a lot of people, it's not just because of the mattress, it's what's in the mattress. Most beds are full of junk like polyurethane foam, synthetic fibers,

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Head to avocado green mattress.com slash ken today. And get $50 off with the code Ken 50. That's avocado green mattress.com slash Ken and use the code Ken 50. Avocado, dream of better. And by the way, I love those three questions, John. Fantastic. I don't think you can get the third one without the first two. Is that fair?

I'm learning with you. If they know you like them. The third comes last. Trust is the greatest relationship that a leader can have with these people, but it's the last relationship you get. Yeah. It's not the first. So the trust, in fact, let me just say one more thing about that.

It does take time. You said that. That's exactly right. So what happens is when I'm a new leader, the words I say carry a lot of weight. Because you don't know me. Right. So I'm coming in and saying, here's where we're going.

Oh, my gosh, this is where we're going. Okay. about six months later my words lose credibility if my actions don't back them up so what happens is words work for six months

so when the leader said well I said this I said this I said well how long you've been with it well for two months well that works you keep talking but after about six months it doesn't work now everything that you say is gauged by what you do because

people don't do what they hear people do what they see. So if they do what they see, now what happens, if you back it up with your actions, Dave, you know this, then your words have even more weight. Now when I talk,

they have gravitas. But if I don't back it up with my actions, they don't even carry a grain of salt. Yeah, this priest that's taken over our parish. Six months is when we, I mean, like he's saying good stuff. Oh, he said real good. We're going to be watching.

That's right. In about six months, he's either what he says is going to have great impact because you say, yeah, he backs that up, you know, or else what he says, you're going to say, he's preaching. You know what I'm saying? It happens all the time. You know, I look, I'm saying, oh, they're preaching. You know what I'm saying? Ain't going to happen.

Just good for 30 minutes. Let's endure it and go have lunch. You know what I'm saying? I'd love to get from you guys communication a do and a don't, something that you guys have observed, you've spoken, you've led a communication due for leaders and a communication don't. What comes to mind? I don't communicate things that I feel people are incapable of achieving. I'm very careful on, you know.

What's an example? I'll give you an example. You hardly ever hear me talk about talent. I mean, it's like if I need a seven foot high jumper, it isn't going to do me any good to get seven people who can jump. one foot. I got to get a seven foot high jumper. I'm not going to teach high jumping that people can't do high jumping. And a long time ago, I love stretching people, but there's a difference between stretching people in their giftedness so that they can grow into it and go into it. And so therefore,

I'm very careful. There are just a few things. I seldom teach. I would like to. I'm doing a, I'm right now working on a book called The 1% Factor, because I know this for a fact that the first 90% of your growth gives you, if you're in the top 10%, you get a high return in life. But people have no clue. If you can go from the 90% up to the 99, if you can go 9% more,

they have no clue. The compounding effect of the last 9%. In fact, eight to 10 times more return on the last 9% than on the first 90%. Now, my frustration in, because I'm working on the book right now, and I have one frustration about it, I've just got to be honest with the reader.

You can't get in that 1% if you're not talented. You just can't get there. I mean, and why would I write about something that you either have it or you don't? Why frustrate people? Why talk about high jumping to, hey, why don't I teach people that look like me to ballet? dance because we can't ballet.

I mean, why, I'm not going to encourage me to sing. I can't say. I mean, there are certain things that you just don't. One of the things leaders understand is they understand their limits and the people's limits and what they can handle and what they can handle. I still remember I had a really, a terrific team player, a great team player who did super and he wanted to be the president. and I sat down a half a dozen times.

I said, honestly, I can't do that for you. But, I mean, he cried. I love you and I love this organization. I want to be president. And I said, the problem is if I make you president, I'm going to have to fire you. And I don't want to fire you. But I will fire you, but I don't want to fire you.

Don't make me fire you. And what was I talking about? He doesn't have. have that kind of capacity. And I think that, so we can communicate. The question is, what, don't you communicate? I have very little desire to communicate things that I think people have no capacity to do. And especially goes in the area of giftedness, calling, talents, those things.

I don't touch them very much because I think pretty much you either got it or you don't got it. And if you got it, you get it. If you don't got it, you won't get it. So if you don't got it, why should I try to get you to get it? and just frustrate you and frustrate me. Don't affirm somebody in something that's not good for them. Sure. And it's so tempting to do that.

A friend of mine said, talked about how love is truth and grace. You're not loving somebody if you don't give them truth and grace. And the truth is what you did for that person. It's cruel if you take out either one. And so often as managers, because if you want that short-term benefit, you'll tell somebody to something they want to hear just to get through the meeting and to make him feel good. Sure.

And it's cruelty. And a great leader is going to be, like, what you did there, that was amazing. That was uncomfortable. That guy cried, and you told him you were going to fire him. He's a good friend. He's a very good friend. So don't affirm. It's so tempting in that moment to tell somebody something they want to hear and then to walk away

and go, well, that got me through that meeting. But now this person's going to suffer. If you want to be an expert, tell them what they want to hear because you can get on a plane and you leave. Exactly. If you want to be a leader, tell them truth. Most leaders, oddly enough, don't suffer from too much truth. No. Most of them suffer from, I'm in front of someone, I care about the person,

and if I'm going to go on one side of that spectrum or the other, you go to the grace side. Right, right. And you go to the, grace without truth is enabling. And so you're just putting up with stuff. And when I first started, and I'm listening to those John Maxwell cassette tapes, you know, and I'm in there and I'm trying to be nice.

And I'm from the South. And so you have to be nice. So bless your heart. Which can mean I'm going to slit your throat. But bless your heart. Right. Bless your heart. Bless your heart.

Sweet tea. Sweet tea. Passive aggressive is a science in this culture, right? And so I'm trying to be nice. I'm trying to be nice. And I finally figured out I was so frustrated with their lack of performance or lack of talent, the lack of fit, whatever that was going on, that I was not being kind. Right.

by not telling the truth. That's very good. And so we, from my sake, we developed a saying that we still use at Ramsey. To be unclear is to be unkind. That's very good. So I've got to be clear in the context of being kind. Right.

So that I can be kind. Because this sweet tea kindness, this passive aggression, that's not real kindness. That's just, that's cowardice. And so I had to stand up and go, okay, I got to be strong enough to look at the person and say, okay, here's what's really going on.

We're going to have a difficult conversation. It's going to be very unpleasant for the next 35 seconds. Get ready. Here we go. Saddle up, baby. Buckle up, Buttercup. Here we go. Right?

And get that done. So mine is the one I've had learned, it's personal. It may not apply to everybody else, but the don't communicate is when I'm emotional. when I'm frustrated or scared or caught off guard, spooked, whatever, whatever emotion, when I can feel my hillbilly coming up, you know, for whatever reason, I got to stop and go, boom, I'm going to take 24 hours.

You sit right there, I'll be back in an hour, I'll be back in a day. And I made myself a promise when we started all these years ago. We've got about 2,000 people now that you're going to take 24 hours. to work at Ramsey. There's about 1,100 there now. And of those, a certain number, we helped, you know, discover their new passion somewhere else. A certain number quit because they didn't want to work for us.

A certain number got married and moved to Oklahoma, you know, whatever, right? But of those 2,000, 100% of them were never fired by any leader inside of Ramsey, including me while the leader was angry. Yeah. Not firing anybody in anger. Yeah. Not even going to discipline someone in anger. It's good. And I have violated that two times.

I didn't fire anybody, but I've two times in my whole career and cost me dearly, cost that trust. It ate the three, it eroded that trust. I never got it back with those two people. It's interesting because vulnerability is at the heart of humility and great leadership. But vulnerability doesn't mean you do it, and we've all made this mistake. You don't do it while you're in that place. Vulnerability is going to somebody and saying, I have been angry or I have been angry or I've been afraid or I've been,

but you don't do it in the emotion. You admit that you have that flaw. And some people think that vulnerability is going there and being raw. And no, self-control. That's just lack of self-control. That's a lack of self-control. That's a good distinction.

He made me think about that. A lot of people say, well, I'm going to be vulnerable. I'm going to go be angry at them or be sad. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Admit to them that you have those feelings, but bring it to them when you're not in the midst of all that. Yeah. Abraham Lincoln did that.

as president, he wrote letters he never sent. And what he found, he said, I write the letters during my emotion because I want to put on paper how I really feel. But he said the next day, I read it again. And I realized it was for me. When I'm in the better spirit, when I'm channeling my inner, Pat Liancione and my inner John Maxwell, I would, the communication would be able to ask a lot of questions.

Do ask questions. That's good. Do ask questions. And not manipulate. of passive-aggressive questions, not a sales technique. I'm not trying to, you know, do you want the blue one of the green one? That's not what I'm talking about. And I'm talking about, you know, what's really going on here, what's really happening here,

and pull, you're pulling then instead of pushing. That's a good dude. Leaders pull, boss's push. That's a good dude. Love that. Because you're not leading or speaking out of assumptions now. You're fighting common ground with them. That's a very good dude.

If I already know the answer to the question, I ask the question, that's not a question. That's manipulation. Yeah, that's correct. No, no, that's a genuine curiosity. Finding out really where they are, because you can't really lead them until you find them. Exactly. You've got to find them. And I got to say, you know, we talked about trust.

That is a huge, huge do for developing trust. Because when you're asking a question, you're not making a statement at them that they're forced to absorb. You're handing them the ball, if you will. And now you're showing them, I actually want to hear what you think. And they feel seen and heard, which develops trust. You know, building on that, I would say a do, because I feel like I have to. give you a do. A guy named Terry Pierce, who's passed away, wrote a great book. And one of the things he said in there is anticipate people's objections.

Oh, it's good. And, but that doesn't mean, but you have to ask. You can't say, I know what you're thinking, but you can go, hey, if I were you, I might be worried about this or this or this. Is there anything else I'm missing? So it's asking questions to anticipate and get those things out there. That's a vulnerable thing. So I think that's something I've learned over the years. It's like, before I start telling you something, I want to say, hey, are you feeling this way? Because if I were you, I might be worried about this. Is there anything else I don't understand? I heard a great story the other day about

that you talked about asking questions. Somebody said, like, an HR person came to this guy and said, did you tell her she's stupid? No, no, no. I asked her if she was stupid. And drop seven feet, I'm just saying. But try to empathize with somebody and go, if I were you, I might be worried about these things. And some people go, oh, so you've thought about how I'm feeling. and oh, that makes me feel so much better that you're aware of that. Okay, yeah. Sure, sure.

John, you got to, I know you have at least one do. What's a communication do? You say, leaders got to do it. I wrote a book about a year and a half ago on the 16 laws of communication. And the best part of the book, I think, is this. Whatever you're communicating, you have your best message and your big message.

Now, your best message is the message. you're giving them at that moment. And I call it the best message because it's what they need or what you feel they need and you're giving your best to deliver it. Okay, so it changes. So the best message today won't be the bad.

It can, in case you're leading. But then you have also the big message. And the big message has nothing to do with your subject. It has everything to do with who you are as a person. No one ever talks about this message, but this is what gives credibility and gravitas to what you say. And there are four actions when you talked about to be unclear as to be unkind. Or I think to be clear is to be kind.

When you talk about that a moment ago, Dave, this is all about clarity. As a communicator, I think you need clarity out of your DNA. And so I ask myself four questions. What do I want the people to see? what do I want them to know, what do I want them to feel, and what do I want them to do? And when I walk in to teach, I already have that. The subject may change, but what I want them to see, I want them to see their possibilities. I'm a possibility communicator.

I want to lift their lid. I want them to see more for themselves than they've ever seen for themselves. I want them to see the possibilities. What I want them to know is that I value them. Because valuing people is the greatest compliment a communicator can ever give the people. You are worthwhile. I want them to see the possible,

I want them to know that I value them. What I want them to feel is empowered. I want them to, when I'm done, I don't care if they think I'm amazing. I want to think that they can be amazing. I want to empower. That's why I'm very careful of not empowering people

in what they can't do. Because they'll like me today, they'll hate me tomorrow. So what I want, I want to empower them. I want them to feel like, yeah, I can do that. And then what I want them to do is I want them to apply and multiply. I want them to apply what I said,

and then I want them to get other people to do it too. I want them to, but I work in a leader's world, so I'm always working with leaders who I don't want you to learn something. I want you to pass on someone else. Those four things, ask yourself those four questions, and then you fill in the answer, because there's not a right answer to it. It's just, but if you'll be honest and fill in the right word for each one of those four questions, you'll very quickly discover what your DNA is as a communicator. That's gold. Yeah. But does that make sense? Yeah, but I want to say this. There are.

There are wrong answers. There are wrong answers. Because as you were going through that, I liked how you filled it in. I think there's something a little bit more universal. I think some of the answers you had were actually good universal answers. Because it's like, what do I want them to feel?

The wrong answer is good, generically good. Because that will lead us to tell them what they want to hear. Sure. So I like that you said, I want them to feel empowered to do what they can actually do. Because sometimes if you have the wrong answers to those things, here's what I want them to know. If it's not based in truth

and virtue. But that's what your DNA is. You can't be a leader. You answer that question and you find out who you are as a communicator. Well, we know Pat well. That's exactly who Pat is. Like if you're consulting in a private room with leaders and you have or you're on a stage in front of 10,000 people, that is his DNA. I thought that that's who you are. You are truth and virtue like a sword. People who know you. Of course, all I'm thinking about is the times where I've not done that. I'm like, Right, but that's who you are. But if you answer that question of words, you get your DNA.

We all do. And what's beautiful is when people hear a communicator speak, they hear the message, but they feel the DNA of that communicator. That's right. And they walk out of that room thinking about what they heard, but sensing what they just experienced. And that's huge. you understand that as a communicator and get clarity on what your DNA is, then when you go and

you speak with such, you help people so much because they don't understand it, but they'll experience it when it's over. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. We look for help or support in some really weird places sometimes. I can think of many a time where maybe I've talked to a stranger who was way unhealthy, than me and the advice I got, not helpful at all. You know, it might be fun to talk to a person like that about everyday stuff, but when you need help with relationships, anxiety, depression, or other clinical issues, your pickleball partner probably doesn't have the right answers. You need

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one with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Ken to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp H-E-L-P.com slash Ken. All right. We have a question right here in front. The three of you are best-selling authors. And I'm curious individually what your recipe for success on a best-selling book is? Well, there's something I was just thinking, this applies to all of us, I'm pretty sure. And I don't know who first came, who said this. I tried to attribute to somebody I've gone,

but there's a saying that says, what's assumed is most important. What's assumed is most, what everybody else assumes everybody gets is actually what they need to hear. And this is, this, this just rocked my world. Because I think that I just remind, people of things that are simple, that they've overlooked because we're always looking for that

next thing. And it's like if you just communicate without pride, like, I don't care if you think this is simple or not. I think this is what we need to hear. I can't tell you how many times people go, your book, I think I knew all that stuff, but I just forgotten it. And yet so many times people think, I want to be a best-selling author, so I'm going to be the most erudite, really sophisticated. I'm going to go for the highest hanging fruit there is. And most people are like, just give me the stuff I can use. And I think all of our stuff, you know, an academic could go,

well, that's so simple. It's like, I go, yeah, it is, huh? Yeah, that's a beautiful comment. And so I think that's tell people what they can benefit from rather than trying to prove that you're the smartest guy in the room or gal in the room. I can affirm that's true with certainly both of your all's books and how we've used them.

It's like your book, Ideal Team Player. Ideal Team Player is hungry, humble, and smart. And we had these people at Ramsey and we're like, okay, that person, they never fit in and they finally ejected or were ejected or whatever. And we always said they don't get it. And we couldn't put it into words. It's like they just somehow they didn't have Ramsey. They didn't get Ramsey soul. They just didn't get it.

And we really horrible at trying to put words to what had happened. And then along comes ideal team player. And it's like, hungry, humble, smart. So simple. They weren't hungry. That's why they, that's what we meant. Or they weren't smart with people. That's what they meant.

And we're like, okay, now this is the framework. Now, when we're interviewing, we're interviewing for this, so we don't have to have an ejection later, right? Or a rejection later. There's even, you have a conference room called Humble, Hungry, and Smart there. I mean, it's that big a deal. Because it was like, bing, it was the obvious thing. We couldn't put words to it.

You put words to it and went, okay. And that book, yeah, it sounds like a, it sounds like crazy. And you know what's crazy? I wasn't going to write it. I thought it was too simple. And a friend said, Pat, this is a, this is great. It's great. I was a great illustration because I feel that same way.

when I heard the three, I thought that just put into simple words exactly what we were looking for. I mean, I think you're really good at that. I think that's one of the strengths of your. Thank you. I want to brag on John. I've had the privilege to work for this guy here and this guy, which is nuts. Shows they, as great as they are, they have poor judgment. You mean, your next.

Okay. Okay, sure. A little awkward. Sure, get my resume, Pat. I'd like to get the trium of it. One of the things I saw John do used to talk about it, and I know you're going to share, but I did want to brag on this, because I think for anybody who feels like they got content in them, they need to take this Maxwellian theory, and you would get an idea, and you would

go, all right, I got to talk it first. I got to go deliver this in front of the leaders first, and I got to take this one thought, because this guy's a thought machine. He's exactly the way he is now, privately. He's just got an idea all the time. And he'd go, oh, oh, you know. And he'd tell all of us young pups about it. We're kind of like, yeah, that's pretty good, John.

And we thought it was the next book. He'd go, no, no, no, not yet. And you really were disciplined to go out and try it first. And I admire that. Thank you. I had a mentor when I started writing because writing was very difficult for me. Communicating orally was just kind of a natural fit. Writing was not at all.

And so I never forget it was my first. my third book, and I, so I had a mentor that had sold a lot of books. In fact, was Jim Dobson. You know, of course, so old people would remember him, young people wouldn't have a clue. Focused on the family back in the day. Wow. And so Jim said, yeah, and so he told me he had to help me him. So I took the third, my third book I wrote out to Colorado Springs and had dinner with him and Shirley.

And I was so proud, it was my first book off press, and I handed it to him. And I'll never forget, he looked at it and smiled. And then he just probably took him. about two or three minutes, never said we're kind of what table contents looked at it. Put it down. So let me ask you a question. He said, is this your best book? Well, I said, yeah, it's the best I can do.

I mean, it's only my third book, but it's the best I can do. And I'll never forget he looked at him. He said, good. He said, because you're only as good as your last book. Don't ever not give the people your very best. Now, that was huge for me because I've written a few books. I still ask myself every time, is this my best book? All but one of mine, the first one, have been first worked out on the air and on the stage.

Yeah, yeah, and I do that. To where I knew that we were touching the felt need. I knew we were catching the visceral response. The humor was working, the Oz, the body language, the lean-in, the stuff. You can see the reaction. And then I've just somehow got to put that to paper. And I'm a speaker first, writer, second. I'm not a very good writer.

You can ask my English teacher in college. So now there's a reason we have editors at Ramsey, me. And I've had to fight and push back on editors and publishers to keep enough of my slant. and my personality in there, because that's what was connecting on the stage as well as the actual core message. So the baby steps were, you know, that's the core of our best-selling book today,

Total Money Makeover. And it's sold, I guess, more than all my others put together probably. It's a perennial. It's always done, it's still good. But the baby steps were taught in Financial Peace University. and I'm in the trenches and small groups walking people, seeing them turn the page, so to speak. Absolutely.

And follow this clear path. So the second thing was that part of our social proofing then, and we've learned to do this with most things at Ramsey is that what you were talking about earlier on communication is the do, the last step. What do we want them to do? And we've got to give them a clear path because we're in the self-improvement space. So whether it's Dr. John Deloney on anxiety, Ken Coleman in careers and self-improvement, George Camel or me, or Rachel Cruz, Jade Warsh, whoever, any of us in the money space, they need a clear path to get where they're going because there's so much gobbledy goop in the spaces that we're in. And so a clear path is essential.

And if you put a clear path in there and then you make them and you stir in a big dose of hope that they can really do it, then they'll go do the clear path, and then the book will sell because they'll tell everybody about it because it changes their life. The other thing is, in my spiritual walk, I'm not always sure

whether it's the Holy Spirit or last night's pizza. Tell me what to the... This speaking to you. Mm-hmm. Which speaking to me. And if I social proof it, if it's God, if it's God's Spirit,

the truth bell will ring. you'll hear the tuning for it. And you'll see it in the eyes of the people. If it's just me full of crap, which is last night's pizza, and I'm blaming God for it, I'm going, God, no, I'm bull. It wasn't him.

And it doesn't prove out in the market then. God's truth. If it's not got God's truth in it, it won't prove out in the marketplace and what we're doing. That's good. Because what we're doing is lining stuff up with scriptural principles in every case.

And, you know, but you can make up some translated version, of whatever you want to make the scripture fit your screwed up idea. And that's called a cult. And, you know, so instead I'm looking for, is this really God in that? And I can't get that just in waking up having a great idea in the morning going for a walk, and I'm sure it's God. My experience is I'm not that tuned in.

Now, there are people that are better spiritually than I am, and they're all tuned in, and they're the people that scare me to death. That's right. That's great. Gosh, listen to you, reminded me of something, because the first book, I didn't know I was ever

going to be a business author, and I came up with a theory, and I was working with a client, and they said, you better write a book about this. And I said, I don't know if I'm going to write a book. And I was a writer. I was a screenwriter. I grew up loving writing.

But I didn't want to write a book just to write a book. And I had a guy called me once and said, I want to be a best-selling author, so I'm going to have an off-site with some people, and they're going to come up with a topic. Oh, God. And I thought, oh, no. That's like, I want to be a rock star.

So I don't know how to play an instrument. I haven't read any songs, but, and it's like, no, no. So it's like, I think the key is, do you have something to say that you feel so passionate that you've already been thinking about and talking about and working on? By the time you write it, you're just giving people something real. Writing becomes easy then because I'm just putting out what's coming out. But what I've already proven, it's already connected, and I can't, and I'm not having to think it up while I'm writing it.

Can you imagine if somebody said, just write a book? About what? Anything? Yeah. You don't have to be bad. Just come up with something. Oh. I tell these influencers, we have these kids come in.

They're doing all this stuff, digital influencers, and we bring them and coach them on media. I'm like, you know, don't write something until you can't not say it. Oh, I love that. That's right. It's great. It's just coming out whether you like it or not. Yes. Yeah.

If I don't have the opportunity to piss off a bank and cut up a credit card, I can't. I got to do it. All right. Let's get one more audience question. We were going to go right here. How do you stay tethered to groundedness? Like how do you keep the most important front and center? So, you know, something that's happened recently in the news in the last few days that is powerful.

And I think it gets treated with too much lightness and like it's just clickbait. but the CEO of a company got caught on camera at a concert with a woman that wasn't his wife. And what I thought about that is the tragedy of that. I mean, everybody thinks it's kind of funny because they commented on it, and it's all over the internet. But I just thought about how your faith, your marriage, your family,

no leader can make their leadership more important than that. And it is so tempting. The world is going to try to draw you into worldliness. And I just know that if you're not grounded, and I mean, I used to come home from speeches, and I'd walk in the door, and the first thing people would say is, Casey needs help with his algebra.

And the dog threw up on the carpet. And I thought, okay, these people don't care if I just gave a speech to people. And they don't care how many books I've sold. And that is such a good thing. And so it's really interesting how losing sight of what's really important, I feel so bad for that man and his family, that CEO, because no one ever is glad that they lost sight of what's most important.

And so to me, this is just one of those things that by the grace of God, he's protected me and I'm glad. But man, I just want to tell leaders, never think that your reputation or your accomplishments. And when you know God and you know, humility is there is a God and I'm not him, so how can I think I'm special? Without that, I was thinking about this. There's a saying St. Augustine said,

if you have God and you have nothing else, you have everything. Yeah. And if you have everything in the world and not God, you have nothing. that will keep you grounded. So for me, I don't know, that wasn't very eloquent. There was all lots of points in there. But I just, that's kind of how I feel about the groundedness thing. In the early 80s, I was about 37, 35.

I saw successful people mess their life up. And I was starting to get a little, not a lot, but books were starting to sell things were going good. And one day I thought, well, what's going to keep me from, doing something stupid. And I decided that I needed to develop a personal definition of success. Because here's what I found.

If you don't personally know what success is to you, the world will tell you what it is. Trust me, you'll be regurgitating what they've given you. So it took me about six months to kind of say, okay, get a personal definition. of success. And I worked on it, and I have one, and I've had it for 50 years, and it's good for me. I'm not saying it should be yours at all.

It's my personal definition. I really not asking you to agree with me, but it works for me. My personal definition of success is very simple. Those who know me the best love and respect me the most. That's success. Those who know me the best. I mean, they know my strengths, they know my weaknesses, they know what I do well, they know what I don't well,

they've watched me do all my screwy stuff. Those who know me the best, love and respect to most. Let me flip that. There's something wrong with me if those who don't know me well like me better than those who do know me well. But it all began out of that personal definition. When I found that for myself, what I discovered was, okay, I got it now.

The standing ovations, it's nice. Doesn't really matter. Those people don't know me. They just heard a talk. When my family gives me a standing ovation, regardless of who I am, that's a bigger deal. I have the benefit of having become wealthy in my 20s and losing everything I own. And in the process of that, meeting God on the way up, getting to know him on the way down. And so I got this wonderful.

reset about what's real and what's important that most people don't have. It's an unfair advantage because I was the guy and the other day in that first chapter that cared tremendously what the audience thought. There wasn't an audience, but what other people thought. I needed somehow the affirmation of so the cars or the Rolexes or the whatever. I was trying to play that game. And then not only did I go broke, but I was also broken in the process. And so.

And that's the key, isn't it? Yeah, it is. Going broke is a terrible thing to happen to you. But being broken is a wonderful thing to happen to you. There you go. Met God on the way up, got to know him on the way down. That's it. And so it's, that did away with, to some extent, sometimes a negative point too far.

but most of the time it's a positive. It did away with what the Bible calls fear of man, the need to please. The need to please. And so I just don't care what you think. It's awful. You know, I mean, it's awful. Dave, I've wanted your.

Some of our Ramsey personalities will read some of the comments after the YouTube or something. And it's like, if you read comments after stuff, you know why some species eat they're young. I mean, it's some of the do. I'm assuming. I think I 100% agree. Some of these people's parents are cousins.

They don't, they live in their mother's basement. I don't, I don't, you don't need to read these comments. That's not customer feedback. This is trolling. And so, Mike, customer feedback's one thing. You are a soulmate. But it's just, if they literally realized how little we care. Yeah.

If they really realize. The amount of calories I have burned writing and comment on someone else's work is precisely zero. It's so, it's just, I don't have time. I got work to. do. I am building a wall. I cannot come down. I cannot come down. But I, and I, you know, I should care more about, to a degree, what people think. I mean, my wife's like, are you going to wear that? I'm like, I'm actually going to wear this. No, I was just trying these clothes out,

practicing them. I'm going to put them back on. Now you're going to tell me what to wear. But I got, you know, I just, I gave up this need to please in an unhealthy way. And, and, and, and, And I'm self-admitting. I'm being honest right now, probably sometimes even too far. I really, you know, somebody's angry at whatever. Life goes on. It's just. You know what makes you credible in that, though, is that you said, I mean, that you

once had it. Because, see, it's human nature. It's a fallen nature that makes us think we're supposed to please man. Yeah. But that's where the crashes come from. Right. It's I'm trying to please someone else other than God. And so, you know, when you just want to make sure the dog and the kids and the wife are happy,

everybody's good. and that's all you care about, then all of a sudden, I guess they call that grounded. I don't know. I mean, you know, when I go to dinner with you and Sharon and I go dinner with you and Margaret and, you know, you guys are over at the house having dinner. You know, we're hanging out. Oh, hang this, man. Absolutely.

And it's not, there's not in there like somebody's, you know, nobody had to lay out some kind of red carpet thing or something. No. Oh, that's coming over. Oh, my God. You know. No. And we don't have people in our house.

They have to do that. I don't want them over there. They bother me. No, so true. Good stuff. I love that. You know this guy, Craig Rochelle. Oh, yes.

So here we go. World class leader. Hey, Dave, John, and Pat, I look up to you guys. You're all three heroes of mine and very close friends. And so because of our close relationship and because of my admiration for you, I wanted to ask you the very, very important question. There's a lot riding on this. So gentlemen, can you tell me if Dave Ramsey, John Maxwell, and Pat Lincione all started a business together

who would be the CEO and who would be the first to get fired? That's so funny. That's so good. I did not put him up to that. I said, send me some, so there you should have been here in this panel. He should have. So what, you got to answer it, because he's got to see the answer. So who's the CEO and who gets fired first?

To be fired, I don't play well with others. Well, the funny thing is, though, I was going to say he'd be the CEO. Yeah. Because he's bossy. Well, yeah. He would be the self-declared CEO. He'd walk in and tell us, you know, we'd look at it and say, who said he was? But he would tell us right up front.

He'd say, I'm the CEO. I think that's true. Here's where we're going. I'm going to cry because you're going to be the president that got hired that you fired. Yeah, that's exactly right. Okay. You're in agreement that Dave is the CEO? Yeah.

I think so. I think so. Yeah, he would declare it. Because one of the things about John is, like, John always was, he's always like, I'm going to put some bark in charge. And I'm going to let you do that. I want to do the things I love to do. No, I would love to be the serious.

I didn't ask Craig's opinion. But, all right, so who's the first one to get fired of this group? So you go. I think I would be. Why is that? I would be because, yeah. You think it's you? Well, for the same reason, you know, like.

Oh, no, I think you're, well, what would you do to get fired? That's the thing. Huh? I mean, how do you get fired from this country? I don't know. Well, not, if you're the CEO, I don't think I get fired as much because you like the rebel in me. Yeah.

So I don't think you, I don't think I get fired with you as a CEO. You know, because, I mean, you love the. And you like when people push back on you. That's the thing. Yeah, you like the kick. I like a good argument. You tell Craig, we made him the CEO because he knew we knew he wouldn't fire us because he likes us.

Great answer. That's why we made him to see you. Because he knows how to corral a bunch of rebels. That's exactly right. That's exactly. Perfect answer. It takes one to know one and he's one. And the law of magnets is if you attract who you are, not who you want.

That's right. So he, tell you, tell Craig, he's the CEO. I like that. And neither one of us got fired, but we're firing him for that question. You tell him because I'm an enabler. I get hard to, I'm going to call him on the way of the plane. Get him on the phone right now. Yeah.

We probably should get him on the phone and to deconstruct his question. But he thought he was very happy with himself, I think, on that guy. He was kind of puffed up. Yeah, he was excited. Oh, no. He works out. That's right. That's what it is. I love that. So fun. Okay. Let's talk about failure. There's so much, John, I think you wrote failing forward. The Bible on it. Such a fantastic book,

but there is the fear of failure and then there is responding to failure. You guys can take it anywhere you want, but I just, I think we would all do well to hear some thoughts on how to handle it, how to process it, guard from it, whichever way you want to go. I live my life to avoid failure, which was a bad way to live. You want to live for love of something, not from fear of something. And I came to realize later in life that I was really just running from failure. And it started when I was a kid, they're really young. And so oftentimes we get these wounds when we're young where we feel like we're defined

by what we do and the outcomes and things like that. And that can actually spur you to great success. some of the best athletes every time they go out to play it's just like they're so terrified to fail and that's not a good way to live it's great to like I love playing this game and I would love to win

and if I fail I'll get up and play again but living to avoid failure is a really bad thing and you told that story about experiencing that failure and working through it is a beautiful thing so I've kind of come to learn that recently that not to fear it and to realize that my my reputation or my worth my identity is not in

accomplishments but in that I'm a child of God I learned that later in life I'm glad I learned it now I hope people can learn it early in life you know Dave mentioned uh about going broke and when he said that I thought to myself um we should always keep success and failure close together. And yet our culture separates it. What's the culture say? Succeed, don't fail, do it right, don't do it wrong. And they make it poles apart.

And I look at this and I say, that's not reality. My successes and failures aren't poles apart. It's not like I have four days of success where everything is good, and then I have two days of failure where everything is bad. Every day I have hits and misses. I mean, it's not like they separate them. So let me pull that out for a second.

Here's what I think. I think they belong together. I talked earlier about seven questions I asked in my learning lunches. And one of the questions I ask is tell me the most important lessons you've ever learned. And I've asked this question for over, well, I started asking this question in my 40s, so for 35 years, I've, I've had a learning lunch every month. I have them monthly. So I've had hundreds of people I've had learning lunches with. When I ask people, tell me the secret or the most important lesson you ever learn in your life.

Every time they have failure included in it. I've never had a person tell me about the most important lesson. never learned life that didn't have failure in it. Isn't that interesting with hundreds of people? So all of a sudden, it hit me. The most important lesson, the life-changing lesson has to do, you've got failure in it. So keep them together.

And here's why I think you have to keep them together. If you're on a role and you're really doing some good stuff and you've got the minus touch and you're successful, you need to keep failure right beside that success because that'll give you humility. it won't allow you to get carried away with, quote, how good you are. If you're over here in the ditch and you're failing, if you'll keep success right beside your failure,

it'll give you resiliency. You know, someday when I'm emotionally mature, fear of failure is going to come up in my face and I'm going to have proper perspective on it, that it's not going to kill me. I'm getting closer than I used to be. I would panic every time. I'm going to, but you don't die from.

The only thing, the only thing you die from with failure, skydiving. Oops. Oops. Otherwise, you're not going to die from it. No, that's good. I mean, the rest of it just hurts. The rest of it's embarrassing. The rest of it is shaming.

And what was I thinking? And I shouldn't have done that. And why did I allow that? And so once I get all that stuff, I'm going, okay, yeah, but the other options sit on the bench. Yeah, that's not a good. I don't want to sit on the bench. That's not my point. I'm going to be in the game.

If I'm going to be in the game, I'm going to throw some interceptions. That's right. You're in the game. If I'm going to be in the game. If I'm going to be in the game. But I'm also going to get some touchdowns. You can't get touchdowns on the bench. So I might as well be in the game.

So, you know, it's what your book failing forward is, you know. So I try to change my inner narrative on that if I can. And I don't always do it. I'm sitting here. But I do it more than I used to do it. And it's like, okay, I didn't fail. I'm experimenting. I figured out a way that doesn't work.

I figured out a way I don't want to do that again. It hurts. And pain is a freaking thorough teacher. I mean, you won't do it again. Very thorough. You won't go it again. I mean, you just learn. You don't forget that lesson.

Yeah. I remember when we were at the bottom, I was sitting in my recliner about 4.30 in the morning crying and going, okay, God, get me out of this, get me out of this. I made a stupid mess. Would you please clean up my manure, which he does not do. He's not there. But I'm sitting there, and I open up my Bible. It's Romans 5.

It says, rejoice in your suffering. And I went, no. No, thank you. Totally unreasonable. It's a complete, why? Are you bringing this up now? Because suffering produces perseverance and perseverance character character, hope.

Here it goes. And hope is a gift of the Holy Spirit. And so the failure creates the suffering, obviously. And I'm going to rejoice in that. I'm going to say, that's an experiment that didn't work. And then the only other thing I thought I had on it is, and I try to teach our leaders at Ramsey this, because I want people failing regularly.

because it creates progress. Of course, that's right. 100% success means we ain't trying nothing. So I don't want to do that. So, but don't do, I think I got this out of that book. You want failures, but you want non-fatal failures. Yes, yes. So don't do that clip of James Bond pushing all of his chips in on one hand.

Yeah, yeah. Because if you don't, because, you know, the evil guy's going to get all the chips and the world's going to come to an end on one hand of cards. No, I don't ever put all my chips on the table. If it's fatal, if we try this and it's fatal, we ain't trying it. Don't thank you. Yeah, God doesn't ask us to go seeking martyrdom.

If that's what happens to us, then we have to accept that. But he doesn't go, go out there and make people so mad they want to kill you. There's a difference between doing stupid and staying stupid. Or being stuck on stupid. Yeah, yeah, because we all do stupid. We all do stupid. I do stupid. But do it, you know, so if I'm going to try to.

something and it doesn't work. Yeah. It doesn't need to be the end. It just needs to be, oops, oops. You're talking about that day, there's difference between a good miss and a bad miss. And some of you put misses all together. But there's a good miss and there's a bad miss. Now, they're both a mess.

You didn't hit it. But like a, okay, a good miss is when I make adjustments. I think, I know what I did. Yeah, I got to change something. That's adjustment. We'll do an autopsy on that, baby. So when you're telling, you're crying, you're saying, God, do something here before me. God's not going to, he's going to, you're going to have to make some adjustments to get you,

when you get out of your chair and quit crying, you got to go make. So a good miss is making adjustments where like a bad miss is making excuses. Blame it or defensive blame somebody. See, because once I make an excuse, there's no hope. There's no, you can go from failure to success. but you can't go from excuses to success. You can't do it. It's not possible.

So don't even try it. When I see a person making excuses, I want to walk in their life, say my name is John, I'm your friend. Let me explain something to you. That's a dead end street. You can't excuse your way out. You can adjust your way out.

So one's a good miss. One's a bad miss. Isn't that right? And if you don't know the difference, I mean, like failing forward is a good miss. Yep. Because I failed, but I learned something.

And I'm farther forward than the way. I'm a little further down the road. I didn't get there. You know what's interesting, you can make a small mistake and make it a bad miss because you make excuses. That's exactly.

You could make what looks like a catastrophic mistake and go, there's something good here. Going back to that guy. That's exactly right. The wife at the concert and all that stuff. I pray for him that he finds some way to find redemption in this and look back.

and say even that horrible thing that happened, he can find good. And because, you know, we all need forgiveness. We all need redemption. And that was a big one. Well, you never know whether it's a good or a bad miss based on the failure. Exactly. It's how you know it's a good miss or a bad miss based on the adjustment. On the adjustment.

You follow what I'm saying? But what did you do when you got it to deal? deep do-do. What did you do? And when I make the right decision, I can make, no matter how bad it is, like you said, a good miss, make a wrong decision on something that is small. And it just, all you do is deep in the mess. Now, you're just getting in deeper all the time. That's gold. I hope the audience caught that. That's phenomenal when it comes to leadership and the responsibility of how you adjust. Phenomenal. I plan to ask this. You took me here. All three of you guys have one big in the secular marketplace while being very open

about your faith. And that's something, you know, I'm so blessed. This is such a special treat for me that just God putting me in proximity to you three guys to watch your influence and to know you personally. And I want to give it to you guys to talk about the importance of your faith and how it sustained you, giving you in God's favor in your life and what it's been like, you know. It's hard to answer that question because he's everything. And every good, every challenging, everything, he's been there. Sometimes I've turned and recognized him and sometimes I haven't. And I'm at a place in my life now where I look back and I realize he was always there

and he is always here. And I just need to turn to him. And so it's hard to answer that question because he's so interesting. intertwined with everything, and he's the whole reason, you know, Seeky first, the kingdom of God. And so at this age that I'm at now, I realize that. And yet I know I'm not done. You know, I like, what's going to happen now to grow closer to him?

So it's hard to answer that because it's so intertwined with it. He is everything. Did you ever look back? I know your personal story. You've shared that with me. We've become very close. And I had no idea until recently you shared how much. God has brought you through some really tough stuff.

Oh, yeah. I'd like for you to share a little bit about what the healing that has been going on with you and where you look at how he takes you from that environment and puts you at, I mean, the top of the top, captains of industry call you, come help, Pat. Reflect on that in his hand. Well, I said a little earlier, I didn't realize this until five years ago. and that was I was afraid of failure. And I felt like I had to prove myself to have any worth by doing good things.

And at some point, you just can't do that anymore. And so I've experienced a very wonderful, dark, challenging, beautiful period. And in this past year, it's gotten really pronounced. And so I just surrounded myself with a bunch of faithful counselors, friends, spiritual directors, therapists to really explore. And I went back to my earliest days, had no idea. And what a great thing to come out of that now.

And I still got more to do and realize God's been there all along and this was part of his plan and I wouldn't change anything because I wouldn't know this if I hadn't gone through it. So it's kind of about what everything we've been talking about.

It's fun, it's wonderful to think at this age that I can have even more joy and even more peace than I have before. Beautiful. if I could only do one thing in life, I would share my faith. It's by far my favorite thing. So I look for opportunities to share my faith. I make an intentional effort every day to share my faith with somebody.

It may be extremely a brief time, but I try to. my best. So the lesson I've learned about faith is very simple. I don't share my faith as far as getting in depth as far as trying to help somebody find Christ or whatever until I've added value to them first. I want to, you know, what I teach is leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less. So I want to influence people in a positive way. That comes from Jesus. What do you say? Be salt and light. You know, salt makes things better, light makes things brighter, okay. So add value to people. So my first responsibility in sharing my faith is not to share my faith.

My first responsibility is to add value to people so that I connect with them in a legitimate way. Let me put it this way. I want people who don't know God, but they know me to want to know God. because they know me. Be a positive plus in their life. The moment you become a positive plus in their life, you develop a relationship that now has integrity to where people want what you have.

I've got a lot of lost friends, a lot of them. In fact, I love lost people. In fact, I love to hang with lost people. In fact, my greatest concern about going to heaven is I'm going to spend eternity with Christians. I'm not sure I can handle that. I mean, honest to God, I just, really? I mean, do we ever get a break?

I mean, I like to have a break now. It's just kind of like I do. I just, I like lost people. And, you know, I have a beautiful atheist friend that I've been working on it with seven years. He's getting close. See, I believe everybody wants to know God. they just haven't had a good representation.

See, if you don't have a good picture of God, a true picture of God, why would you want him? And we haven't given a good, clear picture of God. So I was talking to one of my atheists buddies the other day, and he's now saying, he says, I want to talk to you more about the historical Jesus. I don't want to talk to you about the biblical Jesus. I just want to talk to you about the historical Jesus.

I said, that'd be great. Let's just be historical. Let's not put the Bible. Bible. I don't care. I take them right where they are. So we were talking, I said, I know you don't believe in God, but you sure do miss him, don't you? Don't miss this? We're created to know God. And there's a void and a miss in your life until you meet him. I promise you. I don't care what other stuff you got. I was talked to a very wealthy real estate friend from mine from Tucson the other day. and he finally said, I'm ready to have a conversation about God,

but he said, I just want you to know, I'm doing this probably to please you more than for me. I said, that'll be good. I'll take that. That's not a problem. I don't, that doesn't bother me at all. And then he said, I just want, I want you to know that I've never felt like I needed God at any time of my life.

I said, I understand that. I said, I understand that. So he said, why do you want to share your faith with me? I said, it's very simple. there's a time in your life where you're going to need him. And when you need him, I want you to know what to do. I'm your friend. I'm going to say something controversial, all right?

Just a little bit in love. Go for you. And I found this to be true. And I think as a Catholic, not an event, and I have so many wonderful evangelical friends, non-Catholic Christian friends, but something that happens sometimes in the Christian world, the non-Catholic Christian. I don't hear it as much in the Catholic world.

I feel a little bit like an outsider when I'm with it. So I can comment on this is, I think sometimes we do too often say, like most Christians are like this. And as a Catholic who's gotten to know all these wonderful people, I don't think it's most. I think it might be too many. But I think that we sometimes, it's like,

I think that we can, because I love the things you said, John. But it's like everybody that listens and goes, yeah. It's like, I don't think most Christians are not like that. I think most Christians agree with you. And so I think sometimes we can throw Christians under the bus. Yes. And I just want to be careful with that.

Because as a person that's like, has gone to all these amazing churches and like that I'd never been to before through my work, I find most of the Christian churches I know to be sharing their faith well and really wanting the best for other people. So I do think sometimes we can too easily go, well, most Christians are not good at this. And I just want to say in love to all of you that I don't think, I don't, when I hear that, I just don't think it rings true.

Yeah, I take that. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. That's very valid. Yeah. I accept that. But too many people don't get it. And yes. But there's a, but more and more of the, I meet all these amazing Christians and I'm like,

where is this big church full of horrible, hypocritical people that, you know, because nobody's invited me to speak there yet. But I totally, I love what you're saying, which is, let's not be that way. That is very valid. I appreciate that. They're in the comments section. They're in the comments. Well, and there's plenty.

That's true. The ones that are oversaved. But I say that in love because. No, I agree. That's a good, that's a good addendum. Very good. Thank you. Yeah, I met God as an adult, so in my 20s.

So I don't, so I've got the before and after addition to compare. And I have never done or been anywhere or experienced anyone that created a piece that passes understanding except Christ. I've never had that sense all the way of the bottom of my feet of peace wash over me to where I just almost couldn't breathe. That was so peaceful, except as a spiritual experience with Christ. It's the only time it's ever. Yeah, sure.

There's nothing, and I've been to some really cool places and done some really fun, cool things, and I've been to have the benefit of wealth to do a lot of stuff, but nothing even comes close to that. And that includes during dark times. That includes during times of harsh criticism, unfair criticism. It's included in times when someone's sick that you love. Then that tied back into the way I ended up approaching this first was through an intellectual process.

because if I couldn't get my, as a young person of faith, trying to learn about God, if I couldn't get the intellect of the Bible to match up with reality, then I couldn't buy it. Yeah, sure. And so that turned me into a teacher. And so I see scripture through the lens of instruction

of how God, how my father, my heavenly father, who's absolutely stone cold crazy about me wants me to live. It's got my best interest at heart. This is what you do. This is how you're married. This is how kids work. This is how the provision of Scripture,

the provision of instruction from Scripture. And then, of course, we do that in the financial realm, but we also do it in every other thing too. And because it didn't just, give me peace, and it didn't, when I met God, and it didn't just give me a ticket to heaven, it changed every aspect of my life. Everything changed. All of it changed.

And be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. It changed everything. And so people say, well, you're so bold in your. business and you're so open. I'm like, I know, I'm really not. I'm just that stinking grateful. I'm just that in all of he could take that hillbilly kid and do the stuff he's done. It blows my mind. Only God. Yeah. Only God. Yeah. Only God. Love it. Well, I've told you many, many times that I believe that a great conversation has the power to change our lives and this conversation is going to create a lot of change in me.

And one specific thing I want to challenge you with that I'm challenged by when John talked about anticipation, this idea that he's not disciplined, that he wakes up with great anticipation. I wrote down, anticipation eats discipline for breakfast. In other words, in my life where I am seeking discipline, but maybe it's having a hard time sticking, I want to move to what do I anticipate in those areas of my life? and if I can move into the why, the what of discipline will take care of itself. So I'm going to be working that thought into every area of my life in the days ahead.

And I challenge you too as well. Hey, if you're enjoying the show, give us a like, give us a subscribe, and please share. We want to continue to bring more of these great conversations to you. To all of my friends in the room who joined us, thank you all so much. Would you join me in thanking these three great men of God and great leaders?