EntreLeadership - Trial Lawyer: Here’s How to Handle Conflict in Your Business (With Jefferson Fisher)

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

Today, we’ll hear about:  A business owner whose partner refuses to retire  A leader looking for advice on how to seek honest feedback from her team  A family trying to ensure their company survives  A business owner seeking for advice on how to deal with a difficult partner    Next Steps:  📞 Have a question for the show? Call 844-944-1070 or send us a message: https://ter.li/ask-us  📚 Learn about the EntreLeadership System: https://ter.li/system-p  💻 Get EntreLeadership Elite for your business: https://ter.li/elite-p  ✉️ Sign up to receive tactical tools, advice and resources in your inbox every week: https://ter.li/enl  🏢 Attend EntreLeadership Summit: https://ter.li/summit   🎤 Attend EntreLeadership Master Series: https://ter.li/masterseries   📖 Preorder Dave’s new book, Build A Business You Love: https://ter.li/4zfr52    Connect with Our Sponsors:  💼 Go to Belay Solutions or text ENTRE to 55123 for their free resource!  💻 Visit NetSuite today to learn more.  🧾 Visit Payority for a free consultation!  📈 Grab ⁠Sales Gravy's⁠ free resource to help you hire and lead better. 📝 Use code ENTRE15 to get 15% off your first year of Trainual.    Listen to More From Ramsey Network:  🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman  🎙️ The Ramsey Show  💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights  🧠 The Dr. John Delony Show  🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour  💡 The Rachel Cruze Show  💰 George Kamel    Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

From the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is the Entree Leadership podcast where I take calls from leaders like you about what it takes to win at any stage of business and leadership. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host with over 30 years of experience leading in the trenches, digging the trenches, shoveling the trenches, right alongside you guys. I'm one of you. We love small business people here. We love leadership people here, and we're here to help you. If you want to submit a question, go to Entreeleadership.com. slash ask or leave us a voicemail. We'll make you a caller here on this call-in podcast YouTube thingy we do.

844-944-1070 is the number. That's 844-944-1070. Once a year, we do a huge leadership event, possibly the nicest and best leadership event in North America. We have about 3,000 small business and otherwise leaders there attending. and we have some of the top leadership minds and teachers in the world speaking. This year that will include my friend Jim Collins, John Maxwell, many others will be in Denver in May. And one of our speakers is an absolute Instagram sensation. At least that's where I first saw him.

And we met him through Dr. John Deloney, who actually knew him from his academic career in the past. And that's Jefferson Fisher. If you've not seen him on Instagram, he's absolutely. incredible. He's got a brand new book out called The Next Conversation. Argue less, talk more. He's a trial lawyer by trade and has learned the art of arguing not to win, but arguing to accomplish something. I like to argue to win, so I'm going to learn something from him today. So Jefferson, thanks for hanging out with his brother. Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be here. Well, good to have you. We're looking forward to having you in Denver and May 18.

21, the next conversation. Actionable strategies and phrases that will help you make a more direct, confident, and productive communicator. Okay, so what is, it just shot through my head. It's not on these notes that being direct might include brevity. Right. You just did it to me, right then? Exactly.

Right. Yeah. Good point. It always ends up that the more you say, the less you mean. It's kind of that mindset of the longer it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie. If you know a whole lot, you don't have to say a whole lot. There's confidence in using less words. They're more powerful.

They're less prone to misinterpretation. And always it's the more confident person who has the need to say less, the insecure person, always has the need to say more. Yeah, we think of the adolescent boy. Yeah. It's just really loud and showing out and so forth. Absolutely. That's like the stereotype almost of that idea.

Exactly. Or you're at that meeting where somebody is, they always have to have their two cents. They always have to have, be the devil's advocate. They always have to say something when really they're probably the least knowledgeable of the group, the person who's most informed is one that's typically the more confident and says the least. So it ends up being surgical versus using, you know, a machete. You got it.

Use the scalpel. Yeah, yeah, very cool. So we're going to take calls from you guys out there for Jefferson on this idea of conflict, the idea of arguing not to win and beat up the other person, but in order to accomplish a task to get us to where we want to go, setting boundaries, framing a conversation effectively. So a lot of times small business folks, we struggle with this because we're so caught up in the task itself that we forget to have a little bit of finesse about how we go at this.

So I asked Jefferson if he could sit with us for this entire episode, which is something we don't usually do with guests on this show. It's usually just a call-in show with questions about leadership and so forth. But we're going to set up some communication questions, some argument questions, conflict questions, boundaries questions, those kinds of things. You okay to hang out and take some calls? I'm more than happy. All right, let's do it. Brent is in Dallas, Texas. Hey, Brent, your question for Jefferson Fisher. Hello, my name is Brent, and I'm the president of my company. We're based at Dallas, Texas, and I have a packaging company, and we are about $5 million in sales,

and we have about 35 employees. That's awesome. I'm 38 years old, and my partner is 68 years old, and we have been growing at a rapid pace over the past seven years. When I bought the company, I have five employees, and now we have 35 employees. We've grown to substantial heights that I really didn't think we were ever going to get to, and the business is doing well. And I'm, you know, going to... You said I had a partner, and then you said I bought the company. Sorry, yes, I bought 50% of the business. So I'm sorry.

From him? Yes, from him. Okay. From my partner. I have 50% of the business that would I bought, sorry. And his wife has 25% and he has 25% and I am the 50% owner. I see. His wife is not, she's not involved in the company. She's just an owner on paper.

Right. But she's obviously going to vote with him. Yes, of course. All right. And so is there a problem? Well, I've been trying to buy him out for the past two years and, you know, he has no intention of retiring. He keeps telling me. And we have an issue with a really bad issue.

issue with personnel. He has a secretary that makes very good money. And she's, you know, needless to say, is probably as bad as of employees I've ever seen in my career. And, you know, I feel like he's protecting her. And, you know, that's what he knows if, you know, if he were to leave that she would not have a job. But things are going, like, you know, he's a good partner in terms of he's not. He's there. He works. He works, you know, 40, 50 hours a week. But, you know, I've got about 90% of the sales in the business and he's probably got about 10% of the sales. Well, all right. What do you, what are you thinking? I personally really want to buy them out and get, you know, get on and, you know, grow up my business

some more, but I'm really stuck on, you know, really sticking in with this with him and either just stepping away and going to, you know, start another business in the same industry, which, you know, I don't have any kind of non-compete. I don't have anything on the paper saying that I can't do that. Is there any kind of a partnership agreement? Yes, there's a partnership agreement like in terms of like, you know, just, you know, when we sign the papers, it was just like a standard, you know, lawyer agreement, like nothing special.

We never really thought we were going to do. What does it say about buying someone out? That's what I was thinking. I'm sorry. It says that I can buy him out and he has to approve if someone were to buy me out, he has to approve that. And I have to approve somebody buying him out. But there's no instance in the agreement that says that you can force him to sell. Correct. Yes, sir.

Yeah, that's going to be very difficult if there's not anything on the paper that's going to allow you to do that. What I can do, and I'll leave it to Dave on the business advice here, but in terms of conversation where my skill set is, when you need to have that difficult conversation with him, what I'm going to encourage you to do, and shout out to Texas as another fellow Texan, is that you need to not begin with the fluff of trying to come at it with pleasantries, small talk of, you know, I love the company that we have, you've done a great job,

and then you go, so listen, now I need to talk with you about, don't have that transition. Instead, what I want you to do is begin that conversation straight out of the gate. You need to say something along the lines of, I need to have a serious conversation with you, period. Or this is going to be tough for us to talk about. Or this is going to be a difficult conversation.

You need to lead with exactly what you need to say out of the gate because clarity is kind. And that's going to set you up to have a real honest conversation. But it's going to be very difficult if there's not a very clear path to force him to sell you his shares, to buy him out when there's not a proper path for that. but I can help you with the conversation side of it. Okay.

So Jefferson occurs to me that you start with that, obviously. Yes. Maybe start asking some questions after that, going to, you know, making a statement, we have a difficult conversation. I'm not okay with where we are. Exactly. We need to talk about real seriously me buying you out

because I'm not okay with this. I'm not going to keep sitting here like this. Right. And now what would that look like? What are you concerned about? Are you concerned about the secretary? Maybe I need to give her a package as a part of this. Are you concerned about not having anything to do?

Are you concerned about honor? What are you concerned about? I start trying to figure out what it is he's looking for rather than I just think I'm going to work until I drop. Absolutely. What you need to do is, and he's exactly right, you kind of put yourself in the position as a student and let him be the teacher.

You're asking questions where you're trying to have something to learn, not something to prove to where you're trying to figure out what's the fear, what's the driver in that situation, that is preventing him from doing what you're wanting him to do because there's a fear, there's a concern right in there that is preventing him from acting. So the more questions you ask, the better position you're going to be in to find out where you need to take the conversation. Okay. You might be surprised what you found.

I was in a situation one time where I was sitting and coaching trying to help. I wasn't really coaching. I was just invited into the argument. But this pastor was, it was way past time for him to hand the reins off on the church to the next pastor coming up. And he really wanted to, but was so resistant.

And we couldn't figure out why. And finally, we actually got the deal done, so to speak. I mean, we pastor, this is what you need to do. And he's like, yeah, this is what we're going to do. and in the tail end of the conversation, his wife walked into the office and called his first name and said, these men are trying to steal your church.

And we figured out the resistance was not him. But we didn't know that. If we'd have known that, we could have brought her into the whole conversation and solved that too. But it was more her that didn't want him to quit than he. And that could be here. Wife's got 25%.

She doesn't want him home. Right. she might like him going off to work. Especially if he's concerned about the assistant. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's more of like, I feel like the company and him going in work every day is a hobby more than like a job.

You know, he's just, you know, if it's giving him meaning, if you can get him to say that out loud, that's an important thing. Okay. You need to discover what the source of the resistance is and questions might get that. He thinks, like you said, I think you mentioned this,

but he thinks if he retires, he will just get old. He said that to me numerous times. Too late. He's 68. Already happened. I know that because I'm 64, so I'm already old. It just happens. You can't stop it. It's better than the alternative.

Right. So, Brent, lesson learned, and for our audience, from a business perspective, I'll lean back in. And I often say the only ship that won't sales a partnership, and that's why you got this. anything with two heads is a monster, and you've got a monster on your hands, because you guys have a crummy partnership agreement. When you say standard lawyer stuff, I'm going to say substandard lawyer stuff. And Jefferson's a lawyer. You probably agree with me on that. I can attest to it.

Yeah, there's no exit strategy in here. There's nothing in this general partnership agreement dealing with disability, drug use, default, divorce, death. I bet you don't even have a buy-cell built into this. What happens when he dies? Yeah, there you go. You don't know. So this is a crummy agreement because if you're going to have a general partnership agreement, you deal with all the Ds. Divorce, death, disability, drug use, default, disinterest, and whatever other thing we can come up with. Cocaine use, that's drug use. I mean, whatever. I mean, it's the stuff that Jefferson's run into in his law practice and we've seen over the years coaching people. And many times it is not the actual partner that's misbehaving, it's a member of their family.

So you get into that too. So if you're going to get into one of these things, you've got to have a much better deal than this. And I honestly would prefer to be a 49 than a 50. But of course, 51 is the preference. Because when you're a minority shareholder in a small business, you have zero power. Agreed?

Absolutely agree. So when you're in that difficult conversation, when that's coming up and you want to talk to them, I want you to lead with, this is going to be a difficult conversation. Follow up with a question, just like Dave said, what would it look like or what would need to happen for me to buy you out? What would need to happen for you to walk away? And that's where you're going to get curious,

and you'll be surprised of what you find when you ask questions to try and find the root as to why he's behaving and believing in a certain way. Very good stuff. Jefferson Fisher, argue less, talk more. The next conversation, that's the book. He's one of our presenters, one of our leadership experts, which is going to be teaching at Entry Leadership Summit coming up. We'll be right back on the Entry Leadership Podcast.

Hey, if you want to grow your business in 2025, then you've got to grow as a leader. I found out the problem with my business is in my mirror. And that's why over 2,300 approaching 3,000 small business leaders have already RSVP to Entry Leadership Summit. May 18 through 21 at the fabulous Gaylord Resort in Denver, Colorado. Hey, man, this is not the Motel 6 here. The Leadership Conference is the place. Leaders like you come to learn and scale your business.

And as you know, small business is the backbone of the American economy, statistically. We are running out of seats. Platinum tickets are gone. Pervert seats are almost gone. If you're ready to do this, show up at Summit. Go to Entreeleadership.com slash summit right now or click the link in the show notes if you're listening on YouTube or podcast. One of our speakers this year is Jefferson Fisher, my guest this hour. We're taking your questions about communication.

about negotiation, about boundaries, and so forth. Tanya is in Portland, Oregon. Tanya, your question for Jefferson. I am the managing partner of a CPA firm, and we primarily do government consulting. Our revenue last year was $2.5 million, and we have 13 employees. Cool, good for you.

Thanks. My question is, what is the best way to solicit honest upward feedback from our team? I mean, you can always tell them that you can be transparent with me. My door is always open. That does not allow that. Even though you say this is an open door policy, people are very hesitant to do that. It's like giving people a limited time off.

They often don't take all of it. So you need to be really open about, let's say, prime the room is what I like to say. You prime that conversation. So whenever you sit down with somebody, you can tell them this is a time for us to be open and honest with each other. This is a time where we can be transparent when you're actually in it with them. Or you can try and schedule out times

where you have coffee times with each person, each employee who's on your team where they can kind of get to know you and your personality to it's not always go, go, go. You can sit, have some moments, and you can get real curious and ask some questions. And the more you get them to talk, they're more they're going to open up with you

about what they really feel. Tonya, are you guys doing scheduled one-on-ones? with your direct reports? Yes. Okay. Are the one-on-one's a two-way discussion or a one-way discussion? Primarily two-way. Some, not as much, because there's a few that are a little bit more reserved.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you're CPAs. Hey now. Hey now. Hey now. Come on, Dave. Don't be hating. All right.

I'm not hating. I'm just, it's fun. I think it's an extension of what Jefferson was just saying. I completely agree. he said it was exactly right, saying that there's an open door policy doesn't work. But what you do is in the one-on-ones, do spend some personal time learning about family and kids and dogs and, you know, the horse farm they want to buy or whatever the flip is going on in their life, right? Find out what's actually going on. And once you've, you know, the more you've done that,

if you've done that for a year and you're doing biweekly one-on-ones, you've had a lot of personal conversations. And the more rapport you build, I think the more, chance you've got of them opening up because they begin to trust. Is that fair, Jefferson? Yeah, absolutely. And when you can ask questions that put them somewhat in the driver's seat, all right, you ask questions as though, what could we be doing better? How can we better serve you? What are things that you wish that we were doing here? Or what would it look like if we did five times, five percent better than we did yesterday? What are some things that you would change? So any way that you can get them in the driver's seat, people like to share.

that kind of stuff. And the biggest thing is because they feel like they can't open up, you need to leave with language like, help me. I want you to help us, get them included, make them feel like they're part of that decision-making process, and you're going to get more information out of them, almost every time. Okay. Very good. Solid stuff. Good question, kiddo. So one of the things we teach people is to do one-on-once. Yeah. And I'm not real good at it. some of our leadership team here, we've instituted it much more widely in Ramsey since I,

since I, you know, have come up through the ranks. What do you think you're very good at it? I'm so task-oriented. Okay. And I'm just, whatever we're working on, we work on. Mission-driven. Yeah. Yeah, it's like band of brothers.

We fight together. We work together. And in the process, we build relationship. In the process, I may hear some things that I need to hear. But the formal or the more strict, it's not formal, but the more structured time of I have this one-on-one set, which I still have, I do have one-on-one set. I mean, my son's the president, and we have a one-on-one once a week.

And about business, not about father-son, and president to CEO. And we do catch up, we do all of the things we're talking about there, but I was more draw and shoot out of my hip pocket rather than structured processes as we were being entrepreneurial growing this place. So I'm not as comfortable in the rhythm of that as I'm, a lot of our good leaders are around here. And I do see the huge value in it. I'm just saying I'm deficit in it.

Yeah. You know, I'm just not that good at it. I think you just take it in a different way. I mean, there are people like you that very task-oriented, and you build the relationship through the difficult. It's through working it in the mission. That's where the relationship is built. I think there's nothing wrong with having one-on-ones.

I think there's a right way or a wrong way. What I love about one-on-ones is it allows you to get really, creative at finding the right question rather than trying to sit for the right answer is the question that's going to allow you to have that one question that's going to go this is what's going to take us to the next level you know we did a thing years ago and we still do it but it's in the software now in the the entree leadership software a weekly report and in the weekly report we would have it was used to be just people print it up and you know put it on a piece of paper and send it to the and then later they would just use electronic, who knew?

But we literally printed the paper at one point. But we just said, put a high and a low. And I'm so dumb, I thought, you know, like a business high was, I made a big sale this week or a business low was I missed a sale or this negative thing happened in the office, a positive thing happened in the office. And people start putting personal stuff on there. Like my dog's sick.

Right. And I'm like, what in the world? I almost said, you guys don't get it. And then I suddenly realized that information was as valuable as the other information, so shut up and let it be on there. Yes. Because that was that connective point that we're talking, that connective tissue. Yes.

We're talking about there that you might not, and because it was written, and it was just them being vulnerable about a high or a low. You know, I'm happy I got my first house. Right. Or I'm sad. I broke up with my boyfriend, and I thought he was the one. You know, and that kind of stuff was on there, and I'm like, I think I'm running a beauty parlor.

But I wasn't. It was just human stuff. and I'm like, I have to appreciate this. Yeah, it's the little moments. I mean, you can always have the big goal, but what matters and what connects people is the little moment. It's a little conversation in between each other. That really makes the big impact overall.

One thing that I do at my law firm is we always ask the question once a month is what's your personal win? What's been your big personal win? And you get to hear about their kid who made an A or somebody who, you know, they just got a new dog or whatever it is, but it's those little moments that they feel like they're not alone. They're not just a cog in the wheel. Yeah, I'm not just a production unit.

Exactly. Yeah. And I stumbled into it. I had no idea. I thought I was getting business information. Nope, not at all. Got veterinarian reports. Yeah.

Beauty's a lot. I love it. Jefferson Fisher, the next conversation. Argue less. Talk more. More when we come back on the Entree Leadership podcast. If you want business theory from somebody who's never done it, you got the wrong podcast. I've been leaving the cave, killing it, and dragging it home for a long time.

And that's all we care about, is teaching you how to do that. It's called productivity, baby. And this is not theory. This is practitioner stuff. And it upsets some of you, and that's good because that means it got you to thinking. So that's what we're here for. If you want to participate today, the phone number is 844-944-107. The next conversation, argue less, talk more as the book we're talking about,

with Jefferson Fisher. He is an Instagram sensation, an extremely successful trial lawyer, and we're taking calls about communication and boundaries and conversations and so forth. So, how many posts have you done on Instagram? I think I'm up to maybe close to 300 or so. Is that all? Yeah, not very many. Well, this thing's blown up.

There's a lot. I was going to guess thousands. No, I'm not at 1,000. Okay. So what? Maybe 500, but it's less than five. It should be less than 500. Okay.

Is there one or two that just went bananas? Yeah. There are a few that hit over 20 million, probably. I was thinking, because the ones, I see something come through and I go, Dad, gum, that was good. That was really good. And so, of one of the top ones, what was the post about? How do I handle someone who belittles you?

Oh, how do you do it? Well, you asked them to repeat what they said. So if you were to say something belittling to me, I say, can you say that? I need you say that again. Can you say it again? Or I didn't catch that. A lot of the times they won't.

They'll tweak what they said. They realize what they said the first time didn't hit. So now they're not getting that hit of dopamine. They'll tweak it. They get meaner? No, they'll typically, they'll either won't do it. They start self-ed it. Or they say, I'll never mind.

They'll say forget it. or you can even repeat it back to them. So if they said something rude, you slowly repeated it back to them as if it's not touching you. Then it just kind of feels silly. You just took all the fun out of it. You're a big wet blanket on it.

So if you can add about seven seconds of nothing, usually that's all it takes. But if you were to ask a question like, did you say that to belittle me? Did you say that to upset me? And then all of a sudden they'll backtrack. But that was probably one that went the most viral.

That's so wild. That's funny. I can think about funny times that that's happened. Like, there's a rule in, you know, when you're doing, these days, we don't have bookstores left anymore, but we used to go out to bookstores and have book signings. And the longer people stand in front of you after they've stood in line, there's a direct proportion of them saying something they'll regret for the rest of their life. Because they're nervous, they're a little bit starstruck maybe, and they're trying to be cute,

or they're trying to, or they just, this. They just have a vomit moment. And I've had them say some of the strangest things to me. They just walk up and go, oh, you've gained a lot of weight since the picture on the book. They don't know what to say. Yeah. And so I guess I would have to just, did you say I've gained a lot of weight

since the picture on my book? Yeah. Did you mean to say that out loud? Or you just, you thought that stayed between your ears, didn't you? Yeah, exactly. You got it. That's so true. That was the one that blew up.

Yeah, that blew up. That's interesting. So what happens is that there are enough toxic humans, even direct in person, that are willing to say something belittling, that that was a need that people had. And when you answered that need, the thing took off. Absolutely. That's amazing.

A lot of my content that gets shared the most are dealing with toxic personalities, handling disrespect, narcissism, a lot of just the bad stuff. the ones I get shared the least are things about like be a better listener. Nobody wants to take that kind of advice. They want to poke at the people who've done something to them. Isn't that funny? I want to hit back somewhere. You got it.

Which you kind of missed the whole point of the Jefferson Fisher movement here, people. Exactly. All right. Jake is with us in St. Louis. Jake, your question for Jefferson. Hi, guys. Thanks for taking my call. Sure.

I am part of a third generation family construction. business. Gen 2, my dad and two of his siblings, our current owners. We have about 100 team members, and last year we had revenues about $23 million. How do we plan strategically to avoid costly mistakes within a family business? And then I guess within that for me would be like, what suggestions do you have for leading up within a family business when that means leading up to family members? Well, I think that you cover a lot there. It depends what kind of conversation you're wanting to have with them. What I would encourage you to do in any of these, is to make sure that you have a goal for that conversation.

Often people don't know what they want to say until they're already talking. So I would encourage you to outline on paper what are the goals for the conversations and don't try to attack it all at once. When you talk about everything, you talk about nothing. All right? So you want to make sure that you line out one issue per conversation.

Don't try to pack it in all at once, whatever it is you're trying to talk about. Dave, do you feel that way? Absolutely. Absolutely. So you're how old? I am 32. And your dads and brothers run the place? Their dads and his brothers? Yes, correct. Three brothers run it. How many of your cousins are in the thing? I have one cousin and then my brother is in it as well. So we have three members of Jim 3.

Okay. And how old's dad's bunch in their 60s? My dad's in his 50s, but then his siblings are under 60s. Yeah, and your dad's late 50s, yeah. Okay. All right, so have we discussed succession? Little succession planning and very poor at that. What do you mean by poor? For a long time, it was just kind of put off like, oh, we'll take care of it when it comes to it.

Well, now one of the siblings' brothers, I guess, is in the next couple years wanting to bow out. And so there's a bit of a mad rush now to try to figure out some of that succession plan. And then besides that brother leaving, there is no further discussion after that. Is there, are those brothers second gen or are they all three first gen? They are second gen. So their dad started it. Correct. Okay.

And you guys are construction? Correct. All right. Not planning is a plan. It's a really bad plan, but it is a plan. And too many people, you know, grab their chest, fall back into the grave and toss the keys out as they're dying.

That's good. I haven't heard that before. That's their succession plan, right? And they wait at the last second. Or they just, y'all figure it out when I'm gone, which is like a curse on the family. So the probability of you all being in business 20 years from today is probably less than 10% you're probably going to go out of business if they don't deal with this.

Because the mess that these three gobs are going to leave behind with no planning is going to destroy the place. Does that make sense? Yes, absolutely. And so how are close are you relationally with your dad? Very close. Okay. All right. And I'm curious, what kind of, when you say mistakes, what are you, what's your main

concern? What are you, where are you most worried about? Well, so kind of like, David, like, I would love for this to have the opportunity to become a fourth, fifth, sixth generation family business if that allows for it. But like last year on 23 million in revenue, we lost over $700,000. So you're operationally suck? This past year, yes. Previous two years were some of our best years ever,

and then all the, yeah, we have outdated systems and little strategic planning to go along with it and all that, if you want to call it, dysfunction, I guess, kind of just caught us with her pants down last year. Yeah, when the tide goes out, you can tell he was skinny dipping. Yep, yep. Okay.

Well, there's a lot of, layers to fixing this. And I think I would start with your best connective tissue, which is to your dad. And I would take him to breakfast one Saturday morning and say, Dad, I love you and I love this place and I love working here and I'd love to see it be fourth generation. But I don't think we're going to make it. I think it's going to crash because you guys refuse to deal with the details of a handoff.

And I don't need you to hand it to me today. but everybody in the next generation and the employees and the customers and the vendors need to know what the flip's going to happen. Because all that uncertainty is going to drive away our talent, our connections, and our customers. And it is. Because the outside world is looking at this going, when these three gobs die, this thing's going to crash and I don't want to have a building halfway up. You're losing customers. And you probably, if not now, you will be in five years. as these guys get a little bit older even.

So, Dad, I need some help. And so that's one thing I would do is just try to use that connective tissue however you can and say, I'm willing to work on it. And do we need to call everybody together? How do you think we should handle it? But, Dad, not handling it is handling it poorly. And then the other thing I would do, other than that, as a separate part of the discussion, I don't know whether you lead with this.

Jefferson, you can coach me on this, I have found that old, old crusty guys like me, and I'm the same age as this bunch, okay? And I'm going to say this out loud. I probably shouldn't. But I have found that they're not founders, but they're acting like founders, that honoring the people that are in place as a part of the conversation, extending honor. You guys are amazing. You built a $23 million business. and you build something even beyond yourselves.

Y'all are amazing. And we want to honor that by being able to continue it. Giving them honor somehow moves the needle with these people. Does that make sense? I love that. Yeah. There is a very strong, I think, generational value of continuing the tradition, passing the torch,

being able to honor what has been had and to continue and to live up to that. Another thing I'd encourage you to lead with is because it is your father, all right? Here's where you get to say, Dad, I'm going to tell you this because you've taught me to X. So bring in to the lessons and values that he has taught you. You've taught me to say it with my chest.

You've taught me to speak up when I need to say things. You've taught me to be transparent and be honest. And this is what I'm making sure that I'm living up to. So a lot of the times when you come at it with what you, you've been taught, particularly when you have a special of relationship as your dad, that is going to also embolden him to take pride in you as his son of what he is passing on and what he has in front of him. Now, let's turn left and go negative. You're ready? You do everything you can do, and these guys refuse to do anything. Do you want to be rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic?

No. Yeah. And you're going to have to, at some point, you're going to have to say that, and you're going to say, I'm going to have to take my skills, and I'm going to open a construction company, or I'm going to open a whatever over here, and I'm going to have to go on my way because I'm not going to ride this thing to the bottom of the ocean.

Right. That is very emotional and very difficult for you to do. Mm-hmm. But you need, and I don't want you to throw that at them ever, if you can avoid it. This is not, because they're not going to do this to avoid losing you. They're going to do this because it's the right thing to do. It's the honorable thing to do.

It's good for the customers. It's good for the heritage that their dad's set in place. That's the reason these men are going to do this. They're not going to do it because the 32-year-old told them to go do it. Yeah. So don't throw your thing up. But also, as a man, at some point, you've got to go, these guys aren't going to deal with this.

This thing's going to go NASCAR. and the engine's going to go up in the stands, this thing's going to disintegrate, and I don't want to be in the driver's seat. I don't want to be in the passenger seat. You're not in the driver's seat. But, I mean, that's a year from now, two years from now, and they still refuse to do anything,

and it's getting worse instead of better. That's the decision you're going to have to make at some point, too. So hopefully, though, you can begin a conversation by extending honor and calling back on the values that you were taught. That's a great. I love that point. And you can get these guys to begin to move off center. But they're not going to do it because of you.

They might do it because you talk your dad into making them do it. That might work. But they're not going to do it because of you. Not this bunch. No, these are construction guys. They care very little about your feelings. That's very true. Jefferson Fisher, the book is The Next Conversation.

You guys hang with us. We're going to talk more with you guys out there in the world of Ontario leadership. Man, it's a great conversation. I'm learning stuff today. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Strategies for resolving conflict through connection. The importance of not aiming to win an argument.

Techniques for asserting oneself in communicating with intention. These are some of the things you're going to learn from Jefferson Fisher when you read the book, The Next Conversation. argue less, talk more. And he's our guest today answering your questions on the subject of communication, boundaries, conflict, and so on. And I'm a trial lawyer by trade, but also an Instagram sensation.

I'll be speaking at our upcoming Ontario Leadership Summit. And we want you to be there so you don't miss out on all the Jefferson Fisher you can get. Up next is going to be Taylor in Huntsville, Alabama. Hi, Taylor. What's up? Hey, Dave. It's an honor to talk to you. You too, man.

I am a partner in a digital marketing firm. We're about $5 million in gross revenues with about 20 employees. The firm's been around for about 20 years. I've been there as a partner for about half that time. And I'm trying to decide when is the time to look at dissolving a partnership and look for another opportunity or to stick it out through some challenging times with my business partner. Have you had that discussion at all with your business partner? Have you talked about this topic at all?

How was it going? It didn't go well. Prior to his health concerns back in 2020, excuse me, 2022, he was looking to retire coming back from those health issues. He's got a new view on the business and really is starting to try to weed me out of some of the business decisions. And so I'm trying to decide do I just try to work with them or is it time for me to look for other opportunities? Is there a partnership agreement at all that outlines any responsibilities or how that needs to run? There's a partnership agreement that talks about our equity, but not necessarily the roles and responsibilities as the owner.

How about exit strategy? Only if I was looking to retire. And I would have to be there for 20 years to consider that. Okay. And what percentage do you own? 20%. So I'm a minority partner. It's just the two of us.

Okay. All right. And what's your gut? What does your gut tell you when you bring up this topic, when you think about it? Because you're the one that's been living with it and thinking about it when you brush your teeth. What's your gut tell you? I'm 50 years old. I've got a decade and a half left in a career if it's that long. And my gut feeling is saying look for another opportunity. It's not worth the stress, the anxiety, and dealing with my business partner in this situation

for the rest of those 15 years. And what's holding you back from leaning into that gut feeling? I've been there for 20 years. That is a partner. And I brought all the relationships into it with the client. So it's like leaving a family that I brought into the business and watching it go away. So just the concern that is it time for me to leave or do I stick it out? Yeah. Is there a non-compete of any kind?

There is a non-compete that I can't go into the same industry, but I could work for businesses in their digital marketing for a year. And if you were to leave, is there any kind of, there's no buyout provision. You're just going to walk away from your equity. Is that the only option? No, there is a buyout provision. He would have to buy me out of my percentage. What's it worth?

probably at this time 300,000 to that 350 okay my question is are you holding on to what it is right now are you holding on to the memories that you have of what it was um I'm holding on to the relationships that I've built over yeah a good career how many of those will move to your new firm a year later I probably because of the not non-compete, I would not go after them in probably three to five years. But that's not what your non-compete says. Correct. I probably could take a good handful 10 to 12 with me in about a year, year and a half.

Okay. Is that what you, I mean, do you want to run a business that does that? I don't think that's lacking in integrity, by the way. It's what the deal is. Right. I could look at doing that. You know, to start another firm myself from the ground up, I don't think I'm ready for that. But to partner with somebody else can come into it or.

You've had so much fun partnering. Why do you want to do that again? Because, as you've said, any ship that doesn't sell as a partnership. And it's been, it has been a stressful. Yeah, I wouldn't do it again. I would start something or I go to work for somebody. Right. Well, the two.

But being a minority shareholder is not a, I agree. A lot of that is, this is what I'm hearing is you're still there because of the relationships. You're there because of the emotion. You're there because of your heart. But your gut, the analytical side is telling you, you've done this, you left it on the field and you're good walking away. I think the question is you need to have some confidence within yourself of knowing that

that the relationships are still there. Even if you go and do something else, the people are people outside of where you're at. So I don't want you to feel like just because you leave, you've left a part of your identity. Most likely the company that it is now is not what it was when you were originally started. It's different and it's never gonna be back

to where it was. And so I think you need to also have a sense of confidence of knowing that wherever you go, the same people will, fine you. So if you bought him out, you'd need 900K. That is correct. And where would you get that? I do not have it in reserves. I would have to borrow it or find other investors. Or pay him out over a few years. What's the net profit on the $5 million? Probably $750,000 after the two of us are paid out. Yeah, so you could eat easily and pay him off in one year.

Right. Okay. So I think I'm probably going to say, I'm going to steal what I've learned from Jefferson this hour and say, we need to have a difficult conversation. This is not going to be fun. You know, we were talking before you were sick about you leaving, and I was looking forward to me finishing this up and you moving on to retirement, and now you've changed that game, and I'm not okay with that.

Okay. And so you and I need to talk about which one of us is leaving. I think that's exactly right. Yeah, you need to make sure and tell him, number one, what you want to talk about. Two, tell him how you want the conversation to end. What's the goal, how you want the conversation to end? What do you want to walk away with?

That makes sense. And I'm okay if you say, and Jefferson, you may want to correct me on this. I could be wrong because it's very emotional. We're going to start a conversation today. We're going to end it within the next few weeks to give you time to process this information. The conversation sounds like this. You know, you went out, sick, we thought that you were moving.

And when you came back, you said you're staying. And now I'm not okay with where we are. And I either, I want to talk about you either buying me out or me buying you out. I would prefer to buy you out. But let's begin a conversation talking about that. and you go home and talk to your wife about it and let's get back together on Thursday. I love it.

Okay. The only thing I would tweak is that when you say, lead with what you want to talk about, so it's, hey, I'd love to talk about our, I want to talk with you about our current structure and then add in what Dave just said. And I want to walk away with the understanding that this is not a conversation that's concluding today.

It's not going to finish tomorrow. It's a conversation that's going to last several weeks. And I want to have your interest and your interest send your help in it. Can we do that? He's probably going to say yes. And then that's where you got it. All right. That sounds great. I appreciate that insight. Yeah, that's, you know, just, it's like when we're having a difficult conversation with a team member that's struggling with competency or a behavior or something, we'll say, today we're not talking about anyone leaving the building. I love that. Today we're talking about something that has to be corrected. But if we get to that point,

If this isn't corrected, we're going to get to that point, and we will be real clear and let you know when we're at that point. And so they don't have to think, is there something else going on in this conversation that I don't know about? No, we're very clearly saying we're not making that decision today. But we are beginning the process of deciding which of these is going to happen, either the change or the leaving. I love that because it removes the anxiety from the conversation.

When somebody's going, are you firing me today? I mean, it's that we need to talk text, that you don't know what's, you don't know what's going on. It's like off of space. You know, you have no clue what's going to go on. So I love that. This is not a conversation where anybody's leaving at the end of it. Yeah. And we're not going to, we don't have to decide today.

It's not a pressure cooker, but we are going to conclude this within the next couple of weeks. Yeah, but that gives a sense of relief that now you can actually have the discussion and make space for it. I love that. Yeah, and you can process this and you may go home and go, you know, I am tired, screw it. I'll sell you. Exactly. Well, time has a funny way of removing the difficult out of difficult conversations. Because if it becomes combative because it's pressure cooked, I think you might get a different

answer, do you? Yeah, because then they feel like they're trapped. Then they feel like they don't have a... I have to fight to keep it even though I didn't want to. Problems happen when you're forced into a conversation you're not ready for. You know, when they say, hey, you got five minutes, when they mean, hey, do you have 45 minutes for me to talk to you about something you're not ready for right now. So don't go into a conversation at 10% of yourself when you have to show up for 100%. You're going to lose.

Yeah, that's good. Or if you say, you know, you got to decide right now, then the decision's always, well, I'm going to fight. Exactly. Yeah, you just feel like you're backed up into a corner. Then you have to show your teeth. Then you have to start getting out the gloves. That's it. That's it. Good. Very good stuff. Jefferson Fisher, ladies and gentlemen, the next conversation. argument less talk more he'll be at entree leadership thanks for hanging out with us thanks for having me that was a joy it was a great hour very good stuff very good stuff hey folks remember better a weary warrior than a quivering critic this world needs more high-quality leaders so take courage and lead i'm dave ramsay your host thanks for listening to the ontary leadership podcast