Epic Real Estate Investing - Building Wealth through Creative Finance: Insights from Jenn and Joe Delle Fave | 1408

Episode Date: January 14, 2025

In this engaging episode of the Epic Real Estate Investing Podcast, Matt Theriault welcomes Jenn and Joe Delle Fave from the Creative Finance Playbook Podcast. The couple shares their transformative journey into the world of creative real estate financing. Once constrained by traditional lending limits, they found innovative strategies to acquire cash-flowing properties without banks and minimal upfront costs. Listen in as they discuss the challenges and triumphs of their real estate adventures, including how they manage deals in both Florida and New York, leverage social media for marketing, and provide coaching to aspiring investors. Whether the market is booming or busting, Jenn and Joe reveal why creative financing offers endless opportunities and how their personalized approach to investing has allowed them to achieve financial freedom while balancing family life. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is Terio Media. Hey, strap in. It's time for the epic real estate investing show. We'll be your guides as we navigate the housing market, the landscape of creative financing strategies, and everything you need to swap that office chair for a beach chair. If you're looking for some one-on-one help, meet us at rei-i-a's.com. Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go.

Let's go. All right, so please help me. Welcome to the episode. real estate investing podcast from the creative finance playbook podcast, Jen and Joe Dela Fave. Welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having us. Yeah, nice to see you guys and to be able to connect your creative finance podcast. How long have you been running this?

It's been what, two years, a little over two years now. Yeah, he had the bright idea to start it, I think, in the middle of a move from New York to Florida. We had 45 days. So he decided, I'm just going to start a podcast. and that was two and a half years ago. Very good. Awesome. So creative finance is my favorite subject.

So you guys, I think we got some sort of connection. But I think we all have our story of how we got into the creative part of real estate investing. So bringing up to speed. How'd that happen for you? You know, it was one of these things we almost stumbled in, but through necessity, I felt like, because we were doing burr. I didn't even know what that was using the term, but we were buying junkers in the suburbs of Rochester, New York. So we started up in upstate New York.

And we were finding these in 2008. And obviously, no, everybody knows there was a big crash then. Well, we were finding these houses in the market. We'd renovate them, make them beautiful, rent them out. And we were buying about it one a year. It wasn't too fast. But then after 2016, we were doing our next project. And the friends of the bank said, you know, at 10 mortgages, we're going to cut you off.

So you need to figure something else out. And so I started going on YouTube and all the things and research. And that's when I found out creative finance was even a thing. I mean, it's been going on for decades, but it was super new to me. That's what made me fall in love with it. You could buy cash flowing real estate without banks and without credit and way less down than normal. I mean, some of these deals were buying it $100 down, which just blows my mind. Remarkable, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. I got started doing it because I had in 2001, I'd just come out of a bankruptcy and barely had two nickels rubbed together. So it was completely unlendable. So I had no other choice but to figure out how to do it this way. And I was kind of the same way. I was like, I didn't know you could do that. And then once I had money, I was like, well, why would I want to go to a bank now when I can do it so much better this way?

Well, and that was the point of it, too, because once you start having that a hell moment, this is even a thing. I mean, it's life-changing. For sure. So we're kind of moving in out of a kind of maybe changing phases or shifting markets right now. I mean, we have a whole new administration with new policies to look forward to. The Fed is making different moves. They've kind of changed directions. and the housing market's been kind of stagnant.

I don't know. What do you see for the future right now? Are you guys excited about what's going on? Or do you change in game plans or licking your chops or you pull them back? You know, I think it's business as usual for us. It's about accumulating cash flowing assets, buying them right? So as far as like if rates are going up or if it goes down, I think it opens up opportunities. And I know that when two or three years ago, we were doing a bunch of deals.

And it was super exciting. The market was red hot. But then I think back of like even some of our best deals were the ones we bought in 2008, nine, and 10 when the market was crashing. So rather it's going like way up like it was a few years ago or like if it's crashing. I think if you learn the right strategies, it's always good. So as far as what the future goes. I'm excited.

I think that, you know, like you said, there's a lot to look forward to. And, you know, we just really comes down to like, who can we help next? And even though right now the rates are a little bit high at the banks, you know, we're still buying 4% taking over those mortgages and help and sellers. move from Florida to Texas or from New York to Florida. And so that's just really awesome. You know, I was thinking about like, who do you help next? Because that's kind of where we get to fit in and find our nice little niche in real estate is people in distress.

And I just saw the figures of comparing the first six months of this year to the six month, first six months of last year. And actually foreclosures are down 11%. So who are you guys targeting? Who are you helping? Well, it's interesting because not everybody's in a distress situation. It's usually there's some sort of thing going on, whether they had a quick job transfer or a medical thing happened in the family.

And so all of a sudden they're stuck making two mortgage payments or it didn't sell on market. And so they're open to more options. The way we market, we just target anybody who has a house that they're looking to sell. And through a series of questions, really the sellers make us the offer. And so it's been really awesome to see that. Awesome. Yeah, I think same thing too. Like we just closed a deal and the house is built two years ago in Florida.

House is turnkey, beautiful and they just got their job transferred to Texas. So they wanted to sell. They didn't really have much equity because they didn't put much down. And they said, you know, you could take over their payment at 4%. Because in the property cash flowed, if we gave them 12 grand down. So 12,000 plus about 9,000 closing costs for 20,000 out of pocket, 21,000. We have a two-year-old house in Florida, turnkey. no credit checks, no bank approvals at 4%.

So I love those deals. And then the one we're working on writing up today is actually in upstate New York. And the lady had it rented. She's been really busy taking care of her sick mother who lives on 300 acres. And so there's a lot of things going on there. Renters moved out after the eviction and they left the place of disaster. So she's like, hey, listen, if I could put two grand on my pocket, she'll sell it for what she owes if we could take over her payments.

And it's a $600 payment, and it realistically probably runs for $12 to $1,400. So you need some work, but nothing too crazy. Awesome. So are you guys still in New York? We live in Florida now. In Florida now, okay. You have familiarity with that market. Yeah.

So you're able to work on both markets? Are you going national or are you kind of stuck to those two? We sort of did the national thing two years ago and just really found that we love New York, upstate New York, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, the suburbs. and we do rent to own. So we just really have this great niche there. And then Florida, we're open to, as long as it's cash flowing, when you factor in insurance, you can get a little crazy down here.

So that's definitely something you've got to keep your eye on. The Florida market has a lot of the headlines right now. It has for probably last six, eight months. What is the market looking like for you guys right now? This stuff hard to sell. So here, I mean, the market retail, if you're going to list your house in the market with an agent, it's slow.

You better, you know, be pretty aggressive, but you're going to list it. Obviously, a couple of hurricanes have came through, and now that's caused a whole other bunch of motivated sellers. So for me, once again, I'm not, I try to stay away from fix and flips. I still once in a while

will do one, but my favorite thing is to buy the turnkey houses. So if there's motivated sellers, there's a deal to be had and news is if it's not on the market and they're not selling. And so retail didn't work and a low cash offer wouldn't work because it's not a fixer-upper.

Well, then what's left for some of these people? And so this is where especially the ones that cash flow, I want to buy all of them I can. Right. So is that who you're kind of targeting then? Or the people are expired listings or homes that were taken off the market?

So what we do is we do Facebook sponsored ads. So we do a blanket over the whole state of Florida. So it doesn't really target anybody, but we have a series of different ones. One of them we share with your audience because it really works well, even in Facebook groups. So you could do it for free

by joining a Facebook group and making the same post that we did so well in these Facebook groups for free. We actually run it as one of of our sponsored ads and it works really well. You go into a Facebook group that's got 40, 50,000 people on it, and there's tons of them. Could be a yard sale, garage sale group, doesn't matter. But once I'm in there, I can make a post in that group.

And the post reads, does anyone have a house for sale that's not market ready? I'm looking to buy one in the next two to three months and make the background like blue or pink or red or you can even make the poop emoji, but don't do that one because it doesn't work as well. But you make the color so it kind of stands out. you hit posts and you post that in a five or six of those groups they have that many people on them and you're going to have people either make a comment on your post and some of these comments are very interesting but a lot of them can imagine i'm kind of going to go there next oh yeah there's some people who uh but you know what it from them commenting it boosts the algorithm so when you see boost a post well they're doing it for free by their fingertips so if they say scam or whatever

that's fine but i get a lot of people who are actually just DM me or they leave a comment and you just reply to every comment that's positive and then every instant message and then just start talking with them and have these conversations. And I mean, there's some really nice deals that a bunch of us have found that way. That's great. So I know a lot of the groups will have like their rules and regulations about interactions in the group. They don't consider that specific post of solicitation or do some. I mean, just like anything else, there's some admins that are just super whatever. And you know what? If they're picky about it, I don't want to be in that group anyways, but good news is there's so many groups out there. There's like millions of

Facebook groups. So for one admin that might be non-cooperative, there's thousands of groups where they don't care. Some of these, they're not even, admins aren't even paying attention. And if they give me a warning, I just politely leave the group. I don't want to keep on getting a host with me. Sweet. Well, that's a great strategy. How else are you finding a deal? So that's been our favorite way. Also really branding ourselves on social media, explaining who we are. are and how we're able to help other investors. So we get a lot of leads from, you know, sometimes is they're just wholesalers or other investors where they say the seller wants too much money for their house and I can't make the numbers

work for a cash deal. But they're super motivated and they might be open to terms. And I mean, my inbox gets flooded with those. So by branding yourself on social media is that you buy houses, believe it or not. People just come out of the woodwork. Yeah. I mean, he had his cell phone on his profile page and we were on a walk one morning and some guy just saw that he had posted in a group, not that ad, but just posted and then he saw his phone

number. So just called, have some conversations. But I think if you're just a walking, talking billboard, you know, not overly obnoxious, you want to include like lifestyle stuff on there too. But then, you know, creep in there that like, hey, like, I'm here to help buy a house. It's really powerful to see people that are just waiting on the other side of their phone. Like, most people have social media and Facebook is a platform where a lot of older people are. And so I think that it's quite underused, whether it's marketplace, Facebook. Facebook groups, having a business page, running the sponsored ads. Those are all really great ways to interact with it.

Otherwise, we don't, you know, cold call. We tried the direct mail, but we had a lot of angry sellers who, how did you get my information, you know? So I kind of like this way because they're reaching out to us. That's nice. Good. So when you're approaching and you're talking to people, and I prefer all of the creative stuff, I want to hold as much as I possibly can as well. But there is a way to go about it to increase your odds of getting the creative stuff accepted.

and getting them their mind open to it. How do you approach the call initially, like when you're first talking to the seller? So our business is actually, we find a way to originally when we were doing this way, we were both super busy. So we crafted a way to do it while still kind of being the same way.

So when somebody reaches out to us, no different than if you were to make that post in a Facebook group, it usually comes as a post, whether commenting or it's going to come as a message. And so what we've learned is we actually ask the seller some questions before we get on the phone. Because on some of these posts,

Matt, I mean, the record is 1100 comments on one post. And that is not typically going to happen. Some you'll get zero. Some you'll get 10, 20, 30. Some you could get 400 or 500, but the record is 1100. So if you use that post and you've got more than 1100, you let me know because I want to give you the crown. But what happens is now when these folks reach out, we're just messaging some questions.

And then if I get 10 leads in a day, I might only have to talk on the phone to two or three of them, which are the motivated people who have. actually have some situation going on that we get help because on a scale of one to 10 through motivation, most of the time we're doing business with eights, nines, and tens. They're pretty motivated. So if we could quickly identify somebody who's a one, two, and three, I don't want to talk on the phone for half an hour about the dog and the house and the neighbor and the guy down the street because you'd waste half your life doing that. So with this process, it kind of weeds a lot of them out. And then when we get on the phone, we've already kind of mentioned terms in the opening

conversation. And in some way, they've even mentioned they're open to having conversations about it or sometimes they're like, yeah, let's go ahead and do that. So we've asked questions and the seller kind of gives us the answers, which also makes us the offer. Yeah, but we'd lead with terms instead of like throwing a low ball cash offer out. Like that'll be our last resort is to have to go down the cash road. But we're definitely open. We want to know if they're open to seller financing terms before we. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. If you're getting 10 leads a day and you'll have to talk to three to get someone that's open to it, then that's really easy way to go about it, for sure. Right to the point.

I like it. Jen, you had said something that when you're talking to the seller, they're kind of just creating their own offers. And that's exactly how I operate over here. And I haven't heard too many people ever say that before. So interesting that you said that. So how do you go about getting them to create their own offer? Yeah, ask the right questions.

Yeah. So I think it's the way our script is designed. And it's really a series of questions, but it's a very easy way. And I think of it like tennis. Like, I'm going to ask you a question. serve it to you, you answer that. And we kind of go back and forth. And so we ask them, you know, why are they selling? How soon are they going to want to sell? Does it need any work? We get the mortgage information. Like they tell us what they owe on their house, what their payment is,

what they want for their price. And then we even ask them, like, if I were to pay that price, would you be open to owner financing or we could figure out a payment plan or take over your existing mortgage? And there's many times where they're going to say, no, that doesn't work. Guess what? Most of them will, just like selling anything. Most people are going to say no. And that's fine. It's just really wading through the people who are like, hey, yeah, that might work for me. Or during the conversation, they might have said no to that question, but during the conversation, you can see where this might be a really good fit. And let's just get on the phone anyways and maybe just explain it to them a little bit more and see if that makes

more sense to them because sometimes it can be confusing. But what I don't want to do is like, hey, Matt, my house is worth 400. And if you buy it cash for 475 and it needs to be updated, It does need a roof, but if you're willing to pay cash for $475 today, like, let's talk and I might consider selling to you. Like, I will tell you, I am not calling that guy. I talked to that guy before. Oh, yeah. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah.

Yeah, too many times. It was Joe from Rochester, I think, right? Yeah, probably was. But that was kind of the point because, once again, like, hey, we've already moved to Texas. I can't afford two payments. I've got a lady in Virginia, Bristol, Virginia, Turnkey House, gorgeous. She's already moved to Florida. And she's like, I can't afford two payments.

I listed it. It didn't sell. She just took it off the market a couple weeks ago. She's like, I don't know what I'm going to do with this house now. And it can't flow. And it doesn't need a contractor. I don't need, I just close on it and I can turn it into a rental or for what we do, rent to own. Awesome.

So that's your extra strategy is rent to own. Yeah. I love the lease option. Yeah, that's our favorite. So you do with the lease option? What's your strategy or method for finding your tenants? Just like you would any other way. Facebook, of course, love that.

We started a Facebook business page, which was really helpful, just branding, you know, the awareness there and being able to showcase all the homes. And then we listed on Marketplace. If you're going to put it on Zillow, you know, the key there is to put it as a rental because you are looking for a renter. If you list it for sale,

then you're attracting a person that wants to, like, buy right now. So I think that's one mistake I see that happens quite often. And then Craigslist is hit or miss, I would say. Yeah, it's a little shady with Craigslist because somebody takes your posts and things like that. But Facebook seemed to be great. And then signs, if you can possibly put them around town and have a service that people can call in 24-7

and leave their information and just get a call back to them as soon as possible. Sweet. So what does the volume look like? How many deals are you guys pulling together a month? So between cash deals and terms deals, we do one or two, three deals a month sometimes. Years ago, we were doing much more.

And then what we've kind of dialed back on to doing fewer but bigger. deals because there was so many of these deals and I wish I could get better at that but some of the smaller deals were like I've got one right now in a small town in Butler, Pennsylvania. It's a tiny deal if it were to work and it's just it's for the resources you have to put to closing it almost just doesn't make sense. So we pass on that one. So there are some that we could make.

But man, when we were doing 10, 12 deals a month and had a big team, it was like wrangling cats. And I realized we started this and I'm creating something, we're creating something that we don't love. We love making deals. I like helping sellers, but also many of those deals were just tons of headaches. I was going to say, I didn't align with our goals either. We homeschool two kids, so it's really important for us to have that time. We had him walk away from his job to do this to have more time than all of a sudden you, you know, your time was just gone, trying to keep up with all of that. So I think you just got to know what you're trying to focus on. And

if we could get two deals a month, keep it for a portfolio. Like, that's truly like, that's the sweet spot, I would say. Yeah. You guys think I've gone down a similar path as my wife and myself because when we were doing 25 deals a month, we both have very strong entrepreneurial minds. We're just like bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. And it really does get to a point where you get these diminishing returns to where now you're not doing anything very good, even though you're doing a whole lot of it. And so we've adopted and embraced the whole idea of get better, not bigger. You know, it's a few deals a month is where we're at as well. How do you guys divide up the responsibility in your business? I'm more of operations, the back end, making sure things are running smoothly, hiring. Well, we both help with the firing, I guess.

But then he's definitely the visionary, I would say. So he's also the deal maker, the analyzer, closing the deals with our closer, training her. So that's kind of how we do that. We learned quickly that I just didn't love getting on the phone with sellers. I probably could do it. It just wasn't what I really wanted to do. But he just loved that. He loves chatting and making the.

those deals happen. Awesome. Gosh, same dynamic. How amazing. So you said due to the hiring, like how many other people do you have supporting you and what are their roles? So we have a girl on Dispo right now. We got a couple of rent-to-owned home. So there's a lot of people that you have to filter and screen through to make sure they see the property and that they are good fit for it. They have the money for the non-refundable option. So we've got her and I'm looking to hire maybe one or two more just to help get the, you know, we just acquired another property. So, you know, I want to get those moved quickly. And then on acquisitions, we have two virtual assistants and our closer.

And then we also have like an intern, so commission-based, kind of like the person that hops on between like the lead manager. So in between the first couple of questions, but not quite a closing call, they just need some direction there. So I think overall, you know, we have a tech manager too, probably like eight employees. We also have our coaching business. So a couple more virtual assistants on that side as well. Got it.

So a few deals a month are all these people that you have enough for them to keep them busy full time? Oh, yeah. Yeah, because there's also some wholesale deals that sprinkle in there. There's some fixing flips that we'll do. They'll sprinkle in there too. Got it. So there's always more than enough to do. And in our CRM right now, Matt, we probably have like 19,000 leads in there.

And so lots of these either need to have already sold their house. We need to clean it up. There's some of them who've reached out a year or two years ago and they still haven't sold their house yet, which is shocking to me, but once again, it's just controlling that plus new leads coming in. So there's always follow up. And they say there's the fortunes in the follow up. So a lot of it's not just getting leads every day. It's also about following up with all of the leads that you already have.

So really what I want my closer to be doing is making offers and following it with offers that she's already made. And I want the rest of the team to kind of weed out some of the other lower motivation and things like that and just keep her slinging deals. And we should say closing two deals, right? So we're writing up more, but in real estate, obviously, you know, X, Y, Z happens. So something falls out of contract or you get there and you realize this is not a deal after all. We've had a couple of those happen. So you have someone managing and then you have someone that you've called a closer.

When do you step in, Joe? So like tonight, we have one that's really close to it being a deal. Most of the ones that now I've trained Lexi, she was our babysitter. And I've been working with her for two years of doing this and she's a rock star now. So she locks up most of the deals for us. But there are times where I'm going to either give it the final okay, like, hey, this does make sense, great deal, or we need to be here. So it's almost like the sales manager. And then realistically, I love to come in and just help close.

So if there's a really good deal that I'm just in love with, I'm like, oh, yeah, let me get this one. She gets paid the same either way. But like, I want to make sure, like, especially some of these seller finance deals where you get like a zero percent mortgage and a hundred bucks down. We've got one right now in Tampa we're working on. And I'm like, yes, let me get on that call, please. And it sounds like we're close to making a deal. And it's funny because I'm reading the book, Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martel. And he talks about the 10, 80, 10 rule.

And I feel like that's exactly what he is, really. Even Walt Disney, like, wanted to do Mickey Mouse's voice or whatever. And so it's like, you're 10% you do in the beginning. And then 80% is the bulk of it. You let someone else do that, your team. And then he steps in at the very end again, like that 10%. Nice. I'll let Dan know that he,

as a new reader. Well, cool. So at what point in the business, did you decide that you felt comfortable actually handing off the acquisition? Yeah, that was a pivotal moment. So we took this full time in 2020. In March, everything shut down.

He walked away from the dealership, didn't go back, and we decided we're going to go all in. So from March until I think it was June, it was just the two of us. We did everything we could. And we had a mentor at the time who met with us and said,

if you two keep doing this, you're never going to grow. Because I told him, I'm exhausted. You know, from the moment we get up to the moment we crash, like, it's just us. And he explained that you have to hire. And I think it was the book rework that he had recommended. So I read that. And then we just offered a commission base in education, started out with 1099. And we ended up posting on Facebook, of course, you know, anyone want to join our team.

And we had a pizza delivery guy who was like a brother of one of his buddies. and then a local bartender, one of our favorite restaurants, which was closed at the time because of COVID. And together, we just started training. And looking back, man, I wish we did more recording of those training because that was the one thing we didn't do well. But yeah, they started doing deals. Yeah, and I think it would just, we constantly worked with them consistently training. We brought on a few more people. Yeah.

And then we found one young lady. She was a nurse in Pittsburgh, eight hours from us. But she had a great attitude. She would learn. And within a month, like she just had this natural. gift. I don't know it's because being an emergency room nurse, you're dealing with all types of situations. You got quick on your toes, take good notes. That was her. So the first closing call we got on together, she thought she needed my help. And when I got on the call, the three-way call,

the guy didn't want anything to do with me. Forget I'm even the call. I was like the third wheel on a date. It was terrible, but it was great all the same time. So I'm texting her. I'm like, just ask this question. Say this. Okay. And she locked that deal up. And it was like, Okay, good. So when you find the right fit and you could simplify the process, and I think that's what the key of it is, too. As humans, we like to make things overcomplicated. So if you could actually just simplify the closing call, make sure you ask these four questions. And I like to do it in this way, but add your flavor to it. But make sure the question gets asked like this, have the seller make us the offer. And then we review it. And either we're going to make a counteroffer or we could

look to doing that deal, depending on what the numbers look like. And then getting them to realize what a deal looks like, right, giving them ability to have the green light where if you see this deal and it makes sense, like, don't wait to talk to Joe, go get the agreement sign, get this deal now. Right. Where can you figure that out? I mean, my gosh, we had tons of different people throughout our team throughout the last four or five years that we show this to. That's a whole different level.

I feel like managing people, running a team, leadership. That's definitely been a lot of growing and we've enjoyed that a lot. It's funny, you said that and you read a lot of books like I do. and I'm always attracted to like the tactics and the strategies and, you know, how to get wealthy and how to close deals and stuff like that. And then you start building your business and you start making some money and you start hiring people. And all of a sudden, now you recognize why there's so many books on management. Because all of a sudden you kind of get out of the real estate business and now you're the people

management business, right? That was a part. I wasn't, I wasn't mad of letting go. I was happy to let that far go. Oh, yeah. It's crazy because you're delegating, but then you're trying to get your time. back and then all of a sudden you're a micromanager and I'm like, what is going on here? I hired you to do this, but here I am like walking every step of the way. So it was really

meaning I had to step back. Yeah. You're so used to just coming in talking to sellers and buyers and putting the deals together. And all of a sudden, now you spent the whole day managing personality conflicts in your office. You've been thick for how long, right? So anyway, they're cool. So you guys coach people too. So who's the ideal client for you as far as a student goes? I mean, I feel like it's like somebody who obviously wants to be an investor. Probably, I know right now it's so hard to find deals that actually cash flow that makes sense. And so the thought process, are you going to sit on the sidelines and wait for things to change or get better? Or do you learn something that no matter what, if rates are up, if they're down, the market's hot, the market's cold, doesn't matter.

You could always find these deals with the right strategies. And once you understand these exist, it's just so a lot of our people in our group usually own a few houses. And they've tried the old way and they're realizing this stinks. They used all their $50,000 for a down payment. And I'm on another one. And I don't have that laying around. So they're like, how do I get into this without having to put all the money down? And I think that's really that, you know, they have a drive, a desire.

They see past the 9 to 5 and they know it's going to take some work. But with learning these tools and strategy, it's totally possible. Awesome. Awesome. If someone wanted to get in touch with you, what would be the best way for them to do that? other than going to the creative financing playbook podcast. Yeah, I love social media. I'm over on Instagram, Jen Delafave.

I post real-time stories and share our journey, you know, with the ups and the downs of real estate. We just had a water pipe burst in our only rental that we have. It's not rent-to-own. So that was a fun little $1,000 expense on the way to a meet-up the other night. So, yeah, come hang out over there with me. But this guy's probably better on his cell phone, I'd say. Yeah, I love to connect.

And so I just call my cell phone because I'm not on social media as much as I probably should be, but I mean, my cell phone is 585, 585, 207, 207, 2240. 2,240. And that gets you to Joe. And then Jen has an open invitation to slide into her DMs. Right, right. Tell me again. That expression just cracks me up every time I have.

I know. Anyway, it's giving me the opportunity to use it one more time. But anyway, thank you guys. Let's stay in touch and come back and bring us up to date. Thank you so much for having us on. Fun hanging out. My pleasure. Take care.

And that wraps up the epic show. If you found this episode valuable, who else do you know that might too? There's a really good chance you know someone else who would. And when their name comes to mind, please share it with them. And ask them to click the subscribe button when they get here and I'll take great care of them. God loves you and so do I. Health, peace, blessings and success to you. I'm Matt Terrio.

Living the dream. Yeah, yeah, we got the cash flow. You didn't know, home boy, we got cash flow. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first? There, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes.

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