Epic Real Estate Investing - Buying and Holding Properties Without Banks | 1244

Episode Date: November 22, 2022

Banks are an inevitable ally in any business. Well, are they? They certainly are important, but should not be considered as the first choice. In today’s episode, Mercedes is joined by a special guest, Derek Dombeck, an expert in buying and holding real estate since 2003. In 2007, lack of education and misuse of bank money led his business to nearly crash. Stay tuned and find out how he fought back, and took control of his finances. BUT BEFORE THAT, Matt talks about the biggest housing market crash in 40 years! Are you ready? Let’s go! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is Terio Media. Mortgage rates crashed by 47 basis points this week. So is the housing market turning around? Welcome to the all-new, epic real estate investing show. The longest running real estate investing podcast on the interwebs. Your source for housing market updates, creative investing strategies, and everything else you need to retire early. Some audio may be pulled from our weekly videos and may require visual support. To get the full premium experience, check out Epic Real Estate's YouTube channel, Epic rei.tv.

If you want to make money in real estate, sit tight and stay tuned. If you want to go far, share this with a friend. If you want to go fast, go to reiase.com. Here's Matt. Well, the weaker inflation numbers last week seemed to have crashed the mortgage rates, and some lenders are seeing a significant increase in demand from home buyers for new mortgage loans. But not so fast, executives and loan officers are saying, stating that it is just too soon to suggest that this is a turning point for the market. According to the most recent Freddie Mac survey, the third-year fixed rate reduced this week to an average of 6.61 percent, down from last week's 7.08 percent.

Historically speaking, that's a very quick drop. So why is that? I mean, that's a question on the consumer's mind right now. Well, Sam Cater, the chief economist at Freddie Mac, says mortgage rates fell this week due to incoming data that implies inflation may have peaked. The Federal Reserve is expected to keep interest rates high because inflation is still high, and consumers will continue to feel the impact. So while the reduction in mortgage rates is wonderful news, the housing market still has a long way to go according to Cater. I think that's how you pronounce his name. And he isn't alone in his opinion either. Frank Capo Bianco, senior vice president

at Cardinal Financial Company, said, we are seeing some alleviation. However, a lot of people are waiting to see the CPI statistics for December and the Fed meeting conclusion before declaring that this is the tipping point. But those are opinions. They may be right, maybe not, but the Mortgage Bankers Association's data is not so gloomy. And I'll get to that in just a second. But you see, the recent rate cuts are undoubtedly proving helpful to buyers, but affordability is still an issue. But if these rates at least retain some stability, we should start to see a higher number of potential buyers reenter the market. Now, according to a poll this week by the Mortgage Bankers Association, demand increased for purchase applications across all loan types this week.

This is the first time in seven weeks, mortgage applications increased. And this is almost certainly due to rates falling below 7% for the first time since mid-October. But because rates are still high and affordability has decreased as a result, the average loan amount is currently at its lowest point in over two years. So we're not out of the woods yet. But this does feel like a glimmer of hope. We'll be back with more right after this. Boarding for flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes

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so they can take their foot off the gas a bit and enjoy the good life. Let's raise our hands, unless you're driving, of course, for the turnkey girl, Mercedes-Torres. Hello and welcome back. This is Mercedes-Torio's partner in five, and I have a special treat for you today.

I'm going to just jump into who we have as our guest today because our guest has a lending company. He's an expert at buying and holy real estate. But really, his magic powers comes from negotiating and creating deals. And one of the reasons I decided to invite Derek to our podcast is simply because he does not like banks. He doesn't hate them. He despises them. He despises them. them. And the reason he's gotten really, really good at real estate investing is because he gets really creative at buying real estate, but more so has gotten even more creative at using other people's money. So without further ado, I'm going to introduce my personal friend, Derek, Don Beck, to the show.

Derek, welcome to the epic real estate investing podcast. How are you today, bud? I am awesome, Mercedes. Thanks so much for having me on. This is going to be fun. It is going to be fun, especially because we're going to get into the nitty-gritty of buying and holding property and doing your favorite thing of not using banks. So I didn't do a whole lot of justice to introducing who you really are. I just gave a surface level introduction. So I'm going to allow you to just jump in and introduce yourself. Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Derek Dombach, and I live in Wisconsin.

And so we're in the real estate investor mecca of the entire world, said nobody ever. But I've been doing this since 2003. And when we started out, my wife and I, we were like most people. I came from a small town construction background, bought some fixer upper properties. At the same time, we started to actually build new construction projects in Florida. And I won't go through all the gory details, but we built up a pretty nice, portfolio in 2007, because of some moves that we made involving banks and just not having the right education, we lost almost everything. And, you know, when you have a $4 million

portfolio, go to $1 million in a matter of six months, it definitely tests your fortitude. And I guess my wife and I had to look at and say, well, we have two options. We either quit or we come out fighting. And that's the point in time where I realized because we had used banks for everything, we had zero control over our business. For sure, for sure. So let me ask you, when you jumped into real estate originally, knew your wife started just buying properties back in the day.

What made you decide to go into real estate? It was kind of a natural fit. I had actually bought my first property, gosh, I was 21 years old. and bought a little fixer upper house on 20 acres of land here in Wisconsin, tripled it in size, met my wife while I was doing that project, and had built in equity. So when it came, it was about four or five years later when I actually decided to get into investing in real estate, but it just seemed very natural.

I had the mechanical ability to do the work myself, which can be very dangerous because people get sucked into that. I'm not going to scale my business because I want to save $1,000 painting my own walls. So it's a double-edged sewer. For sure, for sure. So when you dove into it while you were doing it, did you have a coach, did you have a mentor, or were you just doing flying off the city of your peers? So I was somewhat of an idiot earlier.

Self-reclaved, right? Absolutely. So my wife and I, we would go to seminars, educational seminars, and get training in that regard, but we never built a network. We absolutely never kept any business cards or kept in touch with anybody. And in 2003, before the internet was really what it is today, that's what it was, was business cards and people sending each other letters and staying in touch and never really thought there was an importance to it.

I wish I had the email list I should have if I would have kept all the contacts I've met in the last 19 years, 20 years, right? But you don't know what you don't know. And I tell everybody, we were closet investors. We were almost embarrassed when we told friends and family that we went and bought another rental because, of course, they're trying to save us from making any mistakes, not that they had any knowledge of real estate whatsoever, but people are always concerned. for one of two reasons. They either don't want you to fail and get hurt or they don't want you to

succeed, which makes them feel worse about their own lives. So we kept it to ourselves. And when the real estate markets crashed in 2007, we really had nobody to turn to. It was just us. Now, if I kind of bumped forward and looked at COVID, for example, now the network that I have and the masterminds that I actually host myself and other masterminds I belong to. COVID was our best year because everybody was calling each other and interacting with each other and talking about how we could benefit from what could have been devastating if you were on your own. For sure. It's funny what you learn in that time of crisis, but what people forget is that real estate is a people business. I mean, all the way around, you have to deal with people, whether you're a buyer or a

seller or there's a bank or a lender or whatever. There's people involved. And you're right. Imagine if you would have kept every single business card that you had when you first started. Oh my gosh, that would have been amazing. So Derek, you talked about, we joked about you hate banks, but you really do hate banks. And that feeling stemmed from you losing everything, you know, back in 2007. So dive into that. Tell us a little bit about that situation. And I want to clarify, I don't actually hate banks. I just don't want to be a slave to the banks. So banks are great because my buyers need banks when I sell a property. And I just feel like people use them as their first option instead of what I feel they should be third or fourth down the list because there's other ways and better ways

that you can buy and or control property. But in 2007, because of what was happening with the banking industry and our portfolio ended up in default. I did what everybody else didn't do, right? I didn't follow the herd and try and file lawsuits against every person that wronged me because at the end of the day, I was the one who didn't have enough education. I signed notes and mortgages. I was responsible for them and I'm going to do what I need to do to clean that up. So I went and approached all the banks that I was working with, and the local ones here in Wisconsin, they were willing to work with me. The stuff we had in Florida, I mean, that's when all the banks were going under and getting taken into receivership and getting bought out. So my contacts

were gone. Those ended up in short sales. But the real estate we had in Wisconsin, I was able to maintain and those banks, because I wasn't in default on any of their stuff. And ultimately, I ended up getting a business partner at the time who, again, because I didn't know any better yet. So I had a business partner who didn't have a lot of experience. We used his credit, my experience, and we started flipping houses. And because I needed to flip houses to get the short term cash to cover debt versus my original plan was buying old. And, but what I learned at that point, Mercedes, was how to talk to people. how to talk to the banks, how to take just me walking into a bank and sitting down with the bank

president and saying, it's my fault. I take full responsibility, but here is my plan to solve the problem. It was so refreshing to the banks because at the time, everybody was just pointing fingers and playing the blame game and not taking responsibility. So as I start analyzing, what did I say to that banker? What did I say to that attorney? what did I say to whatever the scenario is? And when I said that, how did they react?

And I started to catalog that primarily in my head. I mean, I wasn't writing it down that much. I learned how to talk to people and how I could interact with them in a way that would lead them to a conclusion, not by being malicious, but I could lead them to a conclusion that I really needed them to come to. Yeah. You know, what's interesting that you said, you know, when you created this partnership, because you've had to fix and flip just due to life circumstances.

Being a buyer and holder of real estate, you get a little bit of money every single month. And some would argue it's not life-changing money. It's cash flow. You benefit from so many other things. But I found it interesting that you shared that you created that you created a partnership because you needed the fix and flip, for instant money to run the business or to maintain. that is a great opportunity for individuals. When you have an asset, in this case, you had the knowledge and you had the time,

you partnered with somebody that had the credit, and that's exactly what helped you get out of the hole. So that is extremely interesting, Derek, and something that our listeners should really hold on to when you're in deficit of an aspect of real estate, there are other people out there that need that deficit. and that creates a perfect partnership. But then I found it interesting that you shared that you sat down with a banker to have a conversation about what the plan was. I mean, what a concept that you actually work with a bank. In this case, I'm guessing it was a local bank.

This is why it's very important that when my buyers come to me, I refer them to relationships because when you have that established and you can have that conversation, that is a game changer. And I'm thinking that this is what alluded to how you've gotten so good at negotiating and creating deals because of that conversation. So tell me more about how you use that today in your daily interactions of creating your or adding to your portfolio. It absolutely was the turning points. And moving past that is when I started studying alternative methods to buy or control real estate, right? Like using options. and leases and buying property subject to seller financing, whether it's an actual note

mortgage or a land contract, all of these things are just their ways of buying, but that in and of itself, I don't consider creative. So buying a property or a house subject to the mortgage is not creative. It's just another way of financing a house. But what I got good at was talking to the home sellers and figuring out what their biggest problems were. And I could relate to them because I had gone through foreclosure. I had gone through all these different emotions. So they knew whether it was over the phone, and a lot of this is over the phone because of my location. I live in a fairly rural area. So we buy and sell in a 100 mile radius, a 200-mile area of the state. So I'm not going to drive 100 miles to look at a property that I might get.

I'm going to drive after I'm 85 to 90% sure because of a phone conversation that I'm going to get it. So I sat down and I just learned how to be real with people and in a way that they feel comfortable opening up to me. And I have no problem if it is relative to the conversation, I have no problem telling people, I've been where you are. I've been through foreclosure. This is what I went through. This is what I did. And this is how I know I can help you. And over time, as we did this more and more and more and more with more sellers, then I start stacking strategies. So I may buy a property or control a property, not even buy it, using an option, okay? Exercise that option and buy the property or sell the option. There's a couple different scenarios. I may buy a

the property subject to their mortgage and they carry back a note for their equity and I make payments to them over time for their equity. I have this religion against using my own money, Mercedes, so I don't like it. So even in those scenarios, if I need cash, I might get good seller financing terms, but then I could bring in a financial friend who has maybe an IRA or their own cash and bring them in as a financial partner. either through an option or we could do a participating note and let them get some decent returns on their money. Typically, this is where I'm a buying hold guy.

If I'm using Tash, I'm flipping it. If I'm buying on terms, I'm holding it. So I like to buy on terms and I like to sell on terms. So we had bought a property a while back. It was a duplex. and I think this story will kind of fill in a few gaps for you. It was a duplex

and the gentleman was a chaplain. His name was Chaplain Ron and he had cancer. And Chaplain Ron had bought this property specifically so his daughter could live in one of the units and rent out the other. And his daughter had done that and then moved on.

She did it during her college years and then she moved out. So he didn't really want to be a landlord. He now has this duplex that's starting to need maintenance, and he has cancer, and he doesn't know if he's going to make it or not. So his goal was to get the property sold so his wife wouldn't be stuck having to manage it or have to get rid of it. Ultimately, he didn't want a chunk of money. He owned the property free and clear. The rents were way below market value, and he knew that. He just didn't want to

upset the tenants, which is fairly common. And so we structured a deal where we gave him $5,000 down. We were going to make 3% interest-only payments to him, and we had an eight-year balloon. Eight years was the time frame of when his wife was going to retire, and that's why he picked eight years. So this was a win-win. They had the cash flow without the management, and he could go on if the worst thing happened in the world, he could go on to his resting place, and his wife was staying care of. I went three days later to our local RIA meeting. And I stood up and I said, I have a duplex to sell. I will not sell it for cash.

I absolutely want to hold paper on it. And I will hold a mortgage at 6% interest and a balloon of five years. And here's the payment. Here's the rents. Right. We went over all the numbers. So I had the property sold immediately. The guy I sold it to, his cash flow, after he stuck some money into the property to fix it up,

his cash flow was about $400 a month. Our cash flow off the spread between what we bought it for and our interest-only payment to Chaplin Rund, and the payment coming in was $547 a month. Yeah, that is a sweet deal and a win-win for every individual in the transaction. Well, it got better. It got better because for some silly reason, that guy I sold that property to decided to go get bank financing

after two years. Don't know why, but he did. So I had to call Chaplain Ron and let him know that he had about $130,000 coming his way, that he was collecting 3% interest only on. And I said to him, I said, Ron, you know we run a lending company. It's privately funded. I said, I'm okay if you want to put your $130,000 into our fund, but there's one problem.

I can't pay you 3%. And his tone just dropped. He's like, oh, that's, you know, he started to kind of hesitate, right? I said, I have to pay you 9% because that's what we pay our investors. Oh, wow. That's awesome. We took Chaplain Ron.

Oh, by the way, he's alive and well. And not cancer did not get him. But this was such a win, win, win thing. And we had built a relationship because we made payments to him on time as agreed for that time, you know, that couple years. and now, I mean, he has placed more money with us since then, but we built the relationship. And that's the whole point of getting to know people, knowing what problem you're solving, stacking some strategies, and creatively structuring a deal.

Yeah, that's the key term is being able to structure a creative deal. And it all starts with a conversation. conversation with the seller. In many cases, a lot of our clients are doing marketing and they don't want to talk, they don't want to pick up the fall. If they don't want to talk to the sellers, well, this is a people business. You have to create a rapport. And at the end of the day, the seller will work with you if they like it. And it all starts with a conversation. But I will say, Derek, I loved what you said about if you use cash, you're flipping it. If you buy, buy on terms, you're holding it. That is amazing. Love that. Love that. Um, so Derek, where I know that your conversations of getting creative started when you sat down at a bank, meeting a local bank when you were in distress. How does the average person learn these creative financing terms? I know that epic real estate offers a creative financing course. I know that there are people out there that do regroups with creative financing.

But how did you specifically learn? Because it wasn't just that one time where you acquired all of it and then put it together. No. So I remember I said I was a closet investor of the first half of our career? Well, at this point, I was not. At this point, I was going and finding anybody that I could find that could teach me through their experiences any way that I can help. Because the partnership I took on, who had the good credits, that partnership lasted a couple years, three years, but it wasn't a lifetime partnership that either of us wanted.

And it ended. And I still couldn't get any bank financing, nor did I want bank financing at that point. So I started going to my local RIA meetings through that. I actually met my current business partner, Jeff, who was running a RIA. and the interesting thing when I met Jeff was he had never, ever used the bank for any investment property in his life. And he was raising private capital through friends and family and acquaintances. And he was also doing some lending on the side.

So when I met Jeff and we started having conversations, it was about four months later that we went into business together. And we started going and traveling to these events primarily. We got networked with a group of people in the southeast, so Georgia, Florida. And this is what they do. They do not use any of their own money. They don't. I shouldn't say that.

They use some of their own money sometimes. But the goal is to not use much of your own money. And they don't use banks. And they pay as little taxes as legally possible. This is true. That's the benefit of it all. So when you said, you mentioned about going to local Rias, that is something we'll tell. our students all of the time.

Network as much as possible because your net worth is directly correlated to your network. And it sounds like such a cliche. But it's so absolutely accurate because I know that I have clients of ours, that they're getting a whopping 2%

in their IRA. They'll be so happy to get 5% if it's backed by real estate. So how do you approve that individual that you know has an IRA that's not performing to PAR. What would you say to them if you wanted to see if you can partner with them by using their IRAs money? Well, this was a big problem when I met Jeff because I felt like I was asking somebody to use their money was almost like begging.

Like I couldn't get money from a bank. So now I have to beg somebody to let me use their money. And the mindset shift that came in place was I'm giving them an option. opportunity to get a great investment secured by real estate. So when you start talking to people in a different tone and I don't tell people what I'm going to pay them, I ask them what they would like to get paid. So in that previous story, Chaplain Ron, he picked 3%. So I wasn't going to argue with him and say, no, I want to pay you more. But I would have. Clearly I would have. Yeah. Right. And I'm happy that I get to pay him more today. But

when you're out there talking to a friend or family or anybody that has money sitting on the side or money sitting in, God forbid, a bank CD at less than 1%, you know, wasting away, you've got to come at it, in my opinion, as it's an opportunity. And when you start talking about interest rates, realize that somebody that's been getting one or two percent returns, if you tell them, Mercedes, I'm going to give you 10 percent and it's going to be great, we're going to do this, this, this, and you're all excited. your tone is really high, you probably just scared everything out of them, right? Because they think 10% is risky. Yeah, for sure. And so I always ask people, if you could pick a rate of

return for your money, what would that be? And let's gauge it off of their answer. Okay. So if they say 3%, 5%, 6%, and we were willing to pay 10 or 12, great. You know, I'm just going to rest. I think we can probably work with that. Let's crunch the numbers, but I'm pretty sure we could probably get you five or six percent. Because that same person, if I went back to them and said, oh, no, you're crazy. I'll give you 12. Again, they're going to get scared that it's a scam. And it's risky.

And when you first started, Derek, I know now you run a whole operation, but when you first started a hoolock do your paperwork. So for someone that's just starting now, would you go to a title company? Did you create into stuff? Did you go to a lawyer? Who did your pay people? So the benefit of taking on Jeff as a business partner is he had a lot of that already in place, which was done with attorneys.

Got it. But now as we run a full-time, you know, hard money lending company, which came from the fact that we were just flipping houses, but we raised more money than we could keep in our own deals. And it just, we didn't want our investors to leave us. So we had a lot of relationships with people that needed money. We had relationships with our investors that had money. So we started, you know, an arbitrage business essentially.

And that is what we run today, which on an average month is 20 loans going out the door or better. So again, I remember guys, I started as a construction worker in a small town in Wisconsin. And now I'm, you know, involved in millions of dollars going to. out the door every month in loans, this is all just because I learned how to talk to people. That's exactly. It's one of my pet peeves, Mercedes, is people don't want to go out and spend the time to learn how to negotiate and learn how to actually talk to people because it's not sexy. They want to start wholesaling and make $20,000 on wholesale and they want to do all these

different things, except every aspect of our business involves knowing how to talk to people correctly. Absolutely. I couldn't have said that any better. And we say it all the time, real estate is a people business and you have to have conversations. You have to know how to have these conversations to create that win-win situation for all parties. So that's valuable information. So I know, Derek, that you run a conference for advanced real estate strategies. And I definitely want you to tell our listeners about the conference. But before we do that, I want you to give a piece of advice to that individual that's just now getting started in real estate or doesn't have time to start in real estate but has to piggyback off of like buying turnkey properties.

What's the one piece of advice that you would give them that you wish you would have had when you got started? I'm going to give you two. Okay, I'll take it. Use banks as a second strategy. and the first one is I'm going to give you my elevator pitch that anybody can use because people often ask me, how do you get a seller to answer all your questions? So I want you to start using some form of this elevator pitch that sounds natural coming out of your mouths, and it'll make it a lot easier.

So Mercedes, you're the seller. And I would simply say, Mercedes, we buy houses in several different ways. All cash is not a problem, but that's typically going to be our lowest offer. If that doesn't meet your needs, we could look at taking over your payments if you still have debt. Don't have debt. We can make payments to you over time. Or in some cases, we just lease the properties and we buy it at a future date. So I just want you to know that we have multiple ways that we can help you today.

And I'm going to ask you questions that some people probably wouldn't ask you. Is that okay with you? End pitch. There to go. That is awesome. It's funny. You mentioned that in the, Epic Real Estate Investing Academy.

So it's called Epic Invested. We have something very, very similar, full-on scripts that very close to what you said that just disclosed, hey, I'm interested in buying your properties. Here are three options and very similar to what you're saying. But at the end of the day, you said it clearly, it has to come natural and it's got to be your own personal pitch. And it takes practice. I mean, I've done over 2,000 transactions myself.

And when I have that conversation, now it rolls off of my ton like, you know, I'm having a conversation now. But when I first started, it was not as smooth. So absolutely. Very, very cool. So, Dan, tell us a bunch of conference. How did people learn about the advanced real estate investing strategies? So when you asked me earlier how I learned all these strategies, I went on a conference, which was on a cruise ship for seven of its eight years. used to be called Captains of the Deal Cruise.

And it was headed up by what became very, very good friends of ours after all those years. So when they decided to not run it anymore due to getting older and health and everything else, they handed it over to us. So we've changed the name, of course, but it's called the Generations of Wealth. And the way it's structured is we have a five-day conference. We bring in some of the best speakers from around the country to speak from nine until one each day. And these are non-selling speakers. Nobody's pitching from the stage.

We're just trying to educate. And then from 1 o'clock through dinner is the networking portion. Everybody's just hanging out, whether it's at the pool or going on excursions or whatever it is, but they're getting to know each other. After dinner, we come back and have these town hall sessions, which are more interactive. and the part that I love about it the most, and there's a reason it's called generations of wealth, I encourage people to bring their children, ideally if they're 10 and older.

They don't have to pay a conference ticket to get in. They can sit in on anything they want. The idea isn't for them to learn these advanced strategies. The idea is for them to build a network in their teenage years that I stupidly didn't do until I was in my 30s. And I look at the, network my kids have from all across this country of other kids who have parents that are just like us that don't conform, that are entrepreneurial, that is the goal. Now, it's not a children's

conference. It is for advanced, you know, strategies and networking. But it's so awesome to see how these kids interact. And I can't even explain to it without you seeing it in person. But Honestly, these kids have got such a leg up in their teenage years if they want it. It's really difficult to describe and explain to people the value of a mastermind type of conference. It's almost impossible for us to explain it. I've been trying to explain it for years, and I suck at it. But the only reason, and I will be the first to say that when I first started getting involved in mastermind groups, I thought it was hokey pokey.

Like I didn't even understand until I experienced it. And a lot of these mastermind groups, they don't have to have high ticket prices, but there are some that do. And it just, you can't even rationalize to yourself. Why would I best in myself and go into mastermind? But until you experience it, you just don't know. So where does someone get more information about this conference? It's a website, a link.

Absolutely. So the generations of wealth is simply G-O-W voyage.com. The next conference is in February, 2023, in Cancun, Mexico, because I live in Wisconsin, and it's cold in February. So we're going somewhere nice and warm. So absolutely love to have your listeners check it out and take a look at it. There's early bird pricing out there right now. And I will tell you, the other part of this is this is not design.

to be this huge money-making event. This is designed to establish relationships. What I get out of this, what my wife, my business partner, his wife, what we get out of running this conference, I'll be 100% honest with your listeners.

We lost money on the last conference just because of what it costs to put these things on. But the relationships that we get out of it, no different than how you and I met. We have a mutual friend, you know, who introduced us.

The relationships are, so important to you guys. Like I can't even, like Mercedes said, being in a mastermind, you can't describe what happens there without actually being there. But it changed our lives. About five years ago is when we got started in masterminds, we now run our own, we host, you know, national groups as well. I can't even describe just like Mercedes codens, how much it impresses on you when you're helping people and they're helping you. and nobody expects anything in return. That's crazy.

It's true. You know, I said it a couple times before, real estate is a people business. It's all about the relationship. So very good. Dareth, I cannot thank you enough for your wisdom, your time,

and I truly hope that our conversation has made a big difference for at least one person that's listening. To my fellow listener, I truly hope that this was an epic experience. for you, and I will see you very soon. Have a great day.

And that wraps up the epic show. If you found this episode valuable, who else do you know that might too? There's a really good chance you know someone else who would. And when their name comes to mind, please share it with them and ask them to click the subscribe button when they get here and I'll take great care of them. God loves you, and so do I.

Health, peace, blessings, and success to you. I'm Matt Terrio. Living the dream. Yeah, yeah, we got the cash flow. You didn't know home world. This podcast is a part of the C-suite radio network. For more top business podcasts, visit c-sweetradio.com.