Epic Real Estate Investing - Passive Income in the Digital Age: Short Term Rentals and Crypto w/ Chandler Spence | 1191

Episode Date: April 5, 2022

Today, Matt is joined by Chandler Spence, Matt’s Twitter friend who generates passive income through short-term rentals and crypto. Tune in and find out how you can do the same! But before that, you will learn how to achieve financial independence using real estate so you can quit your 9 to 5 job!   Let’s go! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is Terio Media. How to achieve financial independence. It's like the holy grail of financial goals. After all, the ability to no longer need to work for money to live on is incredibly enticing. Just imagine what you could do with that newfound freedom. Well, let's take a look at how we can get you there. You ready? Let's go.

Welcome to the all-new, epic real estate investing show. The longest running real estate investing podcast on the interwebs. Your source for housing market updates, creative investing strategies, and everything else you need to retire early. Some audio may be pulled from our weekly videos and may require visual support. To get the full premium experience, check out Epic Real Estate's YouTube channel, epic rei.tv. If you want to make money in real estate, sit tight and stay tuned. If you want to go far, share this with a friend. If you want to go fast, go to reiase.com.

Here's Matt. Becoming financially independent means the end of mandatory work, semi-early retirement. It's being able to do whatever you want in life without having to worry about money. It isn't the same thing as retirement, which is the end of your working life, although it could be if you wanted it to be, meaning you get a new boss who is impossible to work with? Just quit. Do you want to go back to school to become a teacher? That, then enroll. Do you want to spend a year traveling the world?

Pack your bags. Do you want to start your own business? Start writing up a plan. That type of life is what I'm referring to when I mentioned financial independence. You likely won't get there overnight. Achieving financial freedom will take some planning, some discipline, and persistence. But it doesn't have to take as long as most people think. The willingness to make some sacrifices and the ability to stay focused on the goal will go a long way.

For example, you may have to miss some vacations at first. Might have to minimize the times you eat out or limit your shopping sprees, stuff like that. Maybe you take on a roommate, drive on a old used car, sacrifices like those, but keep in mind, this is temporary. These types of sacrifices are front-loaded. Don't give up what you want most for what you want now. And when you get to the sixth and final step on this list, you will be free while all of those people you've spent years envying are chained in place by a nine to five credit card debt, car loans, and a huge mortgage. I mean, are a few years of sacrifices and some focused effort worth dodging. the trappings of a successful life for a while? Good. Let's start now with six steps towards

financial independence that you can follow to reach the freedom you've always wanted. First thing, identify your financial independence number. Financial independence happens once you have enough money saved and invested to never need to work another day in your life. The operative word, need. Although you might decide to work at a job you love, there is great freedom in knowing that you'll never have to work. A big part of the financial independence journey is determining just how much money you'll actually need to make this dream a reality. That number is your financial independence number, the goal that you should strive for when you decide to seriously pursue financial independence.

Although there are a few different schools of thought about how to calculate your financial independence number, I prefer to look at your last 12 months of expenses and just divide that number by 12 to give you your average monthly expense. Personally, I have completed my journey to financial independence and have retired early, although that retirement didn't last long. I mean, at the age of 42, you can only watch so many movies, spend so much time at the gym, and hit so many golf balls at the driving range until you get a little bored with life. Also, what I noticed, you end up doing a lot of that stuff alone because everybody around you is still working.

So, I still work. I enjoy investing in real estate. I enjoy educating and coaching people on how to do it successfully. And this YouTube channel and the podcast feed the creative sides of me. But at any moment, I could shut it all down, eliminate all of my business. business expenses and my family and I could live an upper middle class life indefinitely. I've got the option to do that. And to me, that's the true definition of financial independence of freedom.

With all that said, it all started by dialing in what my financial independence number was first. Second thing, pay down debts that don't pay you back. Being debt free is thought to be a significant part of achieving financial independence, but I like to push back on that idea and draw a line between two different types of debt. we've got bad debt, of which you don't want, and you should eliminate that ASAP, and you've got good debt, of which you should actually keep. Being debt-free in society has long been thought to be a badge of honor,

but to me, that debt-free status can be a symptom of one's ignorance in how monetary policy, finances, and inflation in today's economy work. Without getting too deep into that, understand that bad debt costs you, like consumer credit card debt that you've used for food, clothes, and entertainment. Good debt pays you, fixed rate debt, that is, and the longer the term, the better. Specifically, like asset-affiliated debts such as a mortgage or mortgages, like education debt that has empowered you to earn more at what it is you do for a living, like a business loan that frees you up to work on your business rather than in it.

Bottom line, get rid of the bad debt, keep the good debt. In fact, consider how you can get more good debt and how you can put it to work. That's something you won't hear from Dave Ramsey. the better you are at managing good debt, the faster you'll reach your financial independence number. Number three, avoid lifestyle inflation. Lifestyle inflation is easy to justify, and it can't sneak up on you, too, if you're not looking out for it. If it goes unchecked, it can really slow you down, and you might not even recognize that it

is. For example, picking the right neighborhood to live in while you're pursuing your financial independence can be somewhat of a hack for you, meaning if you choose to live in a lower income area, societal and peer pressures will have much less of an impact on your day-to-day decisions. Living in a nicer area, even if you can afford it, can sabotage your efforts by eating out with the friends and neighbors an extra time or two per month. Or you recognize the neighbor across the street is packing up the family for a vacation and you start to develop travel plans of your own. Or you notice your next door neighbor's new car and now you start dreaming about your next ride.

Sounds kind of like keeping up with the Joneses, doesn't it? Yes, that's exactly what it is. consciously or subconsciously, we're wired to do it, and it can be very expensive. So, bottom line, watch your lifestyle decisions. Just because you can afford a first-class plane ticket this month doesn't mean you should buy it. Number four, prioritize stashing money. You know, saving your money and making a little priority is advice that falls into the category of a no-brainer. It's good to save money, right?

Of course it is. But I'm going to push back on this time-honored wisdom also and draw a distinction for you. You see, while traditional advice of saving money would allude to saving for a rainy day or saving for retirement, I would ask you to consider this. Rather than using the word saving, swap it out for stashing, meaning stashing money to deploy. Most people save money to park. And unfortunately, when you park money, whether in a savings account or a money market account or a CD, a certificate of disappointment, or even the stock market, your best case long-term scenario

without taking on any extreme risk, it's got to be a single-digit return. Like less than 1% in your savings account, maybe 2% in a long-term money market account, and if you or your financial planner has a knack for picking stock market winners consistently, you're going to be extremely fortunate if you achieve above 8 or 9% annually long-term.

So reconsider saving it in vehicles like that, and at the very least, allocate some, although I'd recommend all, by stashing your money for your next passive income. income play, such as an income property or multiple properties, or an online business, or putting it to work in digital assets in decentralized finance. And if you don't know what any of those are or how they will accelerate exponentially the achievement of your financial independence number, perhaps stash money away to first invest in educating yourself about them. You're not going to

learn about these types of things, at least not in the current day through traditional education. So it's up to you to invest in your own continuing education. And that would be a good use of debt, by the way, too. The point here is, rather than save money and park it, stash it, and drive it. Learn how to put your money to work for you, and then do it. And if your money isn't earning at least double-digit returns, I'd like to see triple-digit, but if it's not producing double-digit returns, consider it's not working. And you work hard for your money, and it should return the favor. Number five, reserve your money for what matters. And I want to emphasize here, don't sacrifice what you want most for what you're

you want now. At every financial exchange, every transaction that you interact with, adopt the habit of asking yourself, does this matter? For example, I've got seven pairs of jeans in my closet right now. Do I need this new pair that I'm about to buy? This was a real struggle for me because I have an addiction for a few things, sunglasses, red wine, and Air Jordans. As much of all of those things that I already have, it just never seems to be enough. And you likely have those types of things in your life, too. I mean, you've got at least one. I know you've got one. And I'm not saying you can't indulge still,

but exercise some restraint and do what most people won't do, and you'll soon be able to do what most people can't do. And buy all that stuff that you want without being influenced by how much it costs. I enjoy my Air Jordan purchases much more these days because I'm not worried about how I'm going to pay for them. Number six, boost your income. The savings you create or the stashing of money that you build must come from the difference between your spending and your investing. Although there is more to be said when you're

coming out of the gate for reducing your expenses, it can have a big impact right away. But unfortunately, there's a limit to how low you can cut your expenses. Frugality will only get you so far. At some point, you'll have to look at the other side of the equation and boost your income to increase your stashing. So the first place to look, your day job. I mean, when was the last time you asked for a raise? Perhaps it's time again. And if you get a rejection from your boss, they say, no way? Be in an employer myself, I can tell you why. And this can be a tough reality to face, too. You ain't worth it. Not you personally, but you professionally to the business. I mean, I'd love to pay my employees more money. If they made me more money. Now that you know that, think about how you can become more valuable to your boss so that

they have to give you a raise. How can you make the company more money so they can give more of it to you? Do you need to do more than what you're paid for for a while? Do you need to learn a new skill? The market will pay you exactly what you're worth. And that's determined by what you do, how well you do it, and how difficult it is to replace you. Perhaps you fill a role at your company that doesn't necessarily tie directly to revenue. Maybe you start looking at other positions within the company that you might be able to take on and get really good at it. Become so good that they can't replace you. So that's the first place to look, where you currently work. Next, consider a side gate when you're not working that day job. Consider a part-time business.

And that could be teaching or tutoring, freelancing the skills that you've acquired over the years. I mean, can you write, edit, take photos, design, paint? Are you handy around the house? Can you build stuff? Fix stuff? These are areas that you could look at to earn extra income. Or Uber or lift driving, food delivery. Maybe renting out your car when you're not using it. Or renting out an extra room in your house. Maybe buying a used car and putting it on Turro.

In today's day and age, there are a lot of different ways to make extra money on the side. now got the six action steps. Now I'm going to give you a huge tip that can really pick up the pace on your journey to financial independence, and that is to manage your environment, particularly I'm referring to the people you spend most of your time with. It's like this. As we were growing up, the idea of peer pressure that had a negative connotation to it, right? Meaning, if you hang out with the bad kids at school, you'd be more inclined to do bad stuff. I mean, if you hung out with the smokers, you'll probably start smoking. If you hang out with the kids that seem to never come back to school after lunch, you'll probably start ditching school too.

Peer pressure is a powerful influence on human beings. But here's the good news. Peer pressure, it works both ways. I mean, if you happen to hang out with the kids that got good grades, you likely got good grades too. And that peer pressure dynamic, it doesn't end in high school. It carries on throughout life. So you can use that as a hack and not only accelerating your journey to financial independence, but making it a whole lot easier. You see, when you act, choose to spend your time with people that are on the same path as you, that have the same goals and share the same values as you, you're going to find you end up in different types of conversations with different types of people. And as a result, you're presented with different opportunities,

different resources, and support. You'll start to notice resistance disappearing. Find yourself a mastermind as an example, or a mentor or a coach. Hire one if you must. You can't overestimate the value of associating with someone that has been where you want to go and that has done what it is that you want to do. Looking back on my journey, being intentional about creating your environment and proactively choosing who you spend your time with is one of life's greatest life hacks. You're going to find fewer haters there. The people will be nicer. The view is better. The air is fresher. And the road is less crowded the higher you go, the less friction and resistance that you're going to experience. This is what I do for aspiring real estate investors. Please stand by.

We've got overhead to pay. We'll be right back. At Desjardin, we speak business. We speak startup funding and comprehensive game plans. We've mastered made-to-measure growth and expansion advice, and we can talk your ear-off about transferring your business when the time comes. Because at Desjardin business, we speak the same language you do. Business.

So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us, and contact Desjardin today. we'd love to talk business. Remember that person that gave up on their real estate investing dreams? Neither do I. Let's keep going. Back to the show. Today, I'm just a little bit different.

We're going to talk about passive income in the digital age, as that's very much the subject of this show being passive income. What we talk about here, because it's kind of the essence of retiring early. retiring early can really come as a result of, I guess, three different options, three primary ones. One is minimizing your life to a point where it costs barely anything to live. It seems to be pretty popular these days, minimalists. But who wants to do that, right? Life is too short to live that way, in my opinion.

Two, you could also win the lottery, and that could be the literal lottery or could be pervert. Lottery, I guess, proverbial, because I don't know if that's the right word. But, I mean, you could be born with an amazing talent for sports or an amazing talent for music or got an amazing brain and you invent the next thing that's going to change the world. Like, that's another way that you could do it. Or three, you could create passive income. And real estate has always shown to be the most likely vehicle for most people to make that happen. It's created more wealth and more people than anything else. It's still tough, right?

It's still challenging. but if you want to kind of put the odds in your favor and that's your goal, that's going to be the best shot for you, the best place for you to be able to make that happen. Recently, people that's really multiplying people's returns on their passive income is this exit strategy of short-term rental. So I'm going to talk about that a little bit today.

And then there are some new options emerging in the digital currency world. So we'll be looking at generating passive income with cryptocurrencies as well. That's some other cool stuff too. I think you really enjoy it. So my guest today, I do have a guest, and I met this person on Twitter. I've never met anybody on Twitter before other than tweeting, but never met anybody in real life. And we just met a few minutes ago for the very first time.

But I reached out to him directly because, you know, the world of entrepreneurship, unless you came from a family of entrepreneurs or you belong to some sort of an organization, it can be a rather lonely world. And, you know, if your family is not the entrepreneur mindset, they might flat out think you're crazy. Real estate investing, like a lot of people, You think you just flipping houses, and there's not a whole lot of us out there that do that. It's a passive income aspect of it. There's probably even fewer that try to do that.

And then there's the newer world of cryptocurrency over the last decade or so. And like I said, it could be a rather lonely existence and tough to find people that you can relate with. And when you cross paths with someone that checks all three of those boxes, there's an instant connection. It's very exciting. And that makes me want to make a new friend. So I reach out to our guest today. And so please help me welcome to the show. show, Mr. Chandler heads.

Chandler, welcome to at the real estate invest. Matt, it's great to be here. I'm appreciative of the opportunity and looking forward for our discussion today. Sweet, sweet. Yeah, me too. Like I said, this is rare that you get to meet somebody that kind of is an entrepreneur, does invest in real estate, and does invest in cryptocurrency these days. So, thanks for taking time out of your schedule to pass as well.

Likewise, you were my first Twitterverse friendship. So I'm equally glad that you reached out. we kind of had a connection. It looks like we got a lot in common just based on Twitterverse and what we're interested in. So it should be fun. Perfect. Yeah.

So I guess we're both Twitter virgins. But I think we found ourselves on the same thread of a crypto thing. And I went and you said something. I don't even know what it was, but it was like caught my attention. I went check that your profile. And I saw that you were in real estate also and focused on short term rentals. And I am just moments away from closing on my very first property that I plan on turning into a short-term rental. So this is going to be a new experience. I've got a bunch of rentals.

I've got a bunch of seller finance notes, but I haven't done this route with the short-term thing. So I want to pick your brain on that, and then the crypto thing and all that. Have you always been an entrepreneur? Yeah, well, so I've always kind of had that entrepreneurial spirit. But for the past nine years, I was a part of a Fortune 100 medical device corporation. And last month, I actually retired from the corporate life. I mean, so now I'm fully embracing entrepreneurship for the first time, full-time. And a lot of that has to do with some of the opportunities that we've built in the real estate space, the e-commerce space, and last but definitely not least, in the digital asset cryptocurrency space. So the full-time entrepreneurial gig is still pretty new to me. I'm in the

honeymoon phase right now, doing it full-time. But it's been great. And kind of how we got into real estate investing was my wife and I have been married for five years. Today is actually our fifth wedding anniversary. We did a short sentence in San Diego for work. and we realized we were working so hard with our respective jobs and that there had to be an easier way because back then in the corporation, if you're not working, you're not making money. And so that's where the initial concept of passive income came from. So I read all the books, listened to all the podcasts, talk to all the gurus, and real estate was really the one that stuck out to me just because you have so much optionality in real

estate, meaning there's so many different avenues that you can take under the same umbrella. up. And so that's really what kind of grasped us and what we took an interest in. So we got introduced to real estate with turnkey investing. So long distance, real estate investing, taking some properties in linear markets like St. Louis, Indianapolis, Baltimore, fix and flipping them and then renting them out. At one point, we climbed the ladder all the way up to 18 different rental properties that we had while still holding our full-time jobs. And it really became a little bit of a burden for us. Right along that same time, we relocated to Nashville, Tennessee, where we currently live now. And if you don't know anything about Nashville, it is the party capital of country music,

Bachelorette capital of the world. And so when we first moved here, my wife and I each had two stipulations that we wanted to find in the house. She wanted a bathtub, and I wanted to finish basement so we could rent it out on Airbnb and pay our mortgage. So that's what we did. That's how we got into the short-term rental world is we rented our basement for two years while living in Nashville and it paid our mortgage almost every single month of those two years. Oh, nice. So that's how it started. That's how it all got going. Yeah. And from there, once you kind of get bit by the bug, you slowly start to ease your way into, wait a second, we might be on to something here. If this little one-bedroom efficiency unit in our basement of the house that we're living in

is paying our mortgage every month, what would this look like at scale? If you go, buy a property and do this on a bigger scale. All the while, we have our corporate jobs. So this is strictly a nights and weekends kind of hobby for my wife and I. And so that's what we did. We networked and we found some friends in the developer world and the investor world. And that led to a couple of different acquisitions for houses in Nashville that we now rent full time. And so from there, now we're up to three individual units that we own and operate to this day. Nice, nice. Starting the way you started renting out the basement, there's a term inside of real estate business called house hacking, right, where you went out to the property like that. But you did it on a short term rental basis.

What would you say your biggest lessons that you learned from actually sharing space with new strangers all the time? Yeah, so the way our setup worked was we didn't share space. So we had the basement was closed off to our home. And they also had a private entrance. So it was a pretty great setup for doing this. And so we really didn't cross paths that often with the guests. We didn't have to see them. We didn't have to talk to them if we didn't want to.

My wife and I were both in sales, so we don't have a problem meeting new people and making new friends. And so we kind of enjoyed the hosting aspect of it. I would say that as long as you can put in the proper rules, you can meet guest expectations, very clear and transparent about what you're offering them and what they're looking for, it ends up being a pretty good match. And so we loved it. We did it for two straight years, running out our basement.

And it wasn't until we decided to grow bigger and scale. Do we start to embrace some of the different tools and resources that are out there? And that's really what gets me excited about short-term rentals, is you can run a business with an STR from your phone or from your laptop. As long as you've got an internet connection, you can be anywhere around the world. I know a lot of people probably talk about this, but this is a laptop business provided that you put the resources in place, locally, maintenance folks, your cleaning team, and you want to do QC or run some errands

or anything like that, as long as you have those resources in place, you can operate this business anywhere that you want to. And that was something that was really attractive to us. Right, right. So you've got three of them now? Yeah. Plan on growing? Still is it going that well? Yeah, we have three now. And then the market has just been so insanely hot, not only in Nashville, but I'm sure across the country. And so we haven't made any acquisitions recently. So what we've done is we've kind of, we've pivoted a little bit to change our model. And now we're looking for plots of land to go build units.

We've been limited partners and private investors for several developers along the way to kind of teach us the process. And so now we're actively scouting for different plots of land to go build our own units. And one thing that's unique in Nashville is the zoning code is very developer friendly. And so in a lot of places, if you buy one plot of land, you build one house. But in Nashville, there's certain zoning codes that will allow you to buy one plot of land, but build up to five units, for instance. And so that's what we're doing now.

We're buying one plot of land. We're building five units that will go through, build them, refinance out of them, hold them as long-term assets, and rent them on Airbnb and VRBO. And it just kind of puts lighter fluid on that cash flow game. For sure. So are you building actual houses? Is that what you're going to build? that's the structures you're building? Yeah, these are more or less townhomes because the name of the

game is to fit as many units as you can as the zoning code will allow on that piece of land. So the final product of that, the output starts to look more like townhomes, like a small townhome community. But the houses that we currently have are individual homes. Two of the three have rooftops that overlook the downtown skyline. It's a pretty good setup and we managed to get in early before the real estate market really took off. Like we bought these back in 2018. pre-construction. And so we got to kind of consult a little bit on the construction process. And there's some little tweaks you can make to really maximize your house as a short-term rental.

The living areas, you want to be as big as possible. You want as many bathrooms as you can get. You don't need a big kitchen pantry because no one's storing food for a long period of time. Right. You want as many balconies and rooftops as you can possibly get because that's really what's going to, those are the amenities that are going to speak to the guest and make your listing. stand out. Nice.

It's my wife's friend who during the pandemic she had salons, like a massage spas and hair, nails and stuff like that. And obviously, all that stuff in California, all got shut down and as well as it did around the rest of the country. But what she went and did, and now I've gone down this rabbit hole, and I can't believe what I've seen on this, is in the short-term rental space. She went out and bought a lot of land and put just three of those little silver Gulf Stream buses on there.

Yeah. So she just has three of these parts, and then she put, all she built was a water facility and like a community bathroom in the middle of this little, like, it's almost like a, like they circled the wagons with these Gulf Streams. And she has booked for like six or seven months, like there is no vacancy. And it's remarkable of what people will go out there and how little are the investment it can take and how much demand there is for something like that. Yeah, there's so much room for opportunity. And it's kind of the same way that you and I met on Twitter and got to talking about some of the stuff that we're interested in and that we're doing in our own entrepreneurial journeys. If you just put yourself out there, then the right people are going to find you, guaranteed. And so it's the same thing as if you list something that's unique and it has great amenities and it fits a need for what guests in that particular area or city are looking for, they're going to find you. And you'll have a successful investment with that. So it's more or less matchmaking.

at the end of the day. So you brought up something that would be considered getting involved in this is important. That every kind of state, every little city has their own little regulations at the island. There's not some sort of universal law that regulates the short-term rental space. Here in Vegas, it's, you know, you can't be closer than 600 feet to another short-term rental. So now you have to go out and go to their little map to find out where all the short-term rentals are blocked. And then you can't be in the site of an HOA, which eliminates about 60% of the city. And then what you just said,

like you can't put something on wheels, right? Which is really weird. And Tennessee, I would think that would be like a perk. That would be like a bonus thing. And send them to, who doesn't want to run a rubber wagon inside of Memphis or Nashville Tennessee? So, yeah,

you've got to look at those types of things. For someone like myself that's, I'm getting ready, just going to buy us and are going for a two-bedroom, two-bath. Because I had a friend that kind of warned me, and maybe you could share your thoughts on this. But kind of more like,

You don't really want to go for a two-day or three-day rentals. You want to kind of demand a four-day minimum type thing because it kind of eliminates the party atmosphere and that you typically attracts a nicer tenant and stuff like that. If you notice those types of things too. Yeah, we definitely have. And I would argue that's also market-specific. So our big days in Nashville are Thursdays through Sunday. So Thursday through Sunday are three-night minimums for us.

The rest of the week are just two-night minimums. We get some business travelers, some families that come in during the week. But by and large, our busy time of the week is Thursday to Sunday. And so that's our sweet spot. And we know exactly how to market around that. And so we also go acquire properties that will fit that same dynamic. So we know the target demographic that are coming to Nashville. It's typically eight to 10 to 12 people as a part of a group, Bachelor, Bachelorette party, reunion, birthday party, girls' trip, that sort of stuff. So we buy three and four bedroom units. And Nashville, we do have occupancy restrictions, and it's a formula. So it's two times the number of bedrooms

plus four. That's as many people as you can have. So a three-bedroom unit can have an occupancy max of 10 people. Four-bedroom unit can have 12. So we know that 12 is the maximum that any listing in Nashville is allowed to have. So what we did was we went and built two units side by side. And so we're not skirting the regulations. We're still playing by the rules that are in the playbook. But what we do is we have those two individual listings that are side by side. And then we also have what we call a combo listing. So each listing can accommodate 10 people. The combo listing can accommodate 20 people.

And so that's another way that we differentiate ourselves from the marketing perspective to bigger groups coming into town. So little creative things like that I think are always good to try and find. The space is getting more and more saturated as more and more people find out about short-term rentals And especially post-COVID, people don't want to go to kind of a sterile hotel room where everything looks and feels the same. They want a different dynamic. They want common space. And these larger homes can give them that.

So we're definitely seeing an uptick and demand, not only present day, but also our booking lead time is getting further and further out, which is, I think, a great thing to see, especially post-COVID where people are getting revenge travel and they're packing up their families and they're coming down to Nashville for a good weekend of country, music and honky talks. Yeah, it's been good and it's glad to see the travel pattern starting to come back. For sure. Is that primary your clientele, like the vacationer or the tourist sites? Yeah, typically. I mean, that's probably 90% of the folks that we host, families, groups of friends coming in from, you know, a wide array of different life events, anywhere from birthdays to anniversaries to the weddings and bachelor's at parties. So everywhere in between. You'd extend the word marketing a few times. And so when it comes to, you know, once I'm done with my property or once I own it and I'm going to go ahead and put it up there.

Is it as simple as just putting it on Airbnb or VRBO or is there more that you have to do with regards to market? Yeah, there's a lot of thought that needs to go into it because if you consider every real estate investor that has a long-term rental, ideally they make cash flow every month. Well, if they look over at their short-term rental friend and they're making 3x that cash flow, which in our experience, that's been about the ratio. At the rule of that. React short from rental income to long term. And they say, well, I'm going to put my property on Airbnb and VRVO. And they list it up there.

And it looks like every other one that's in the market. Nothing really stands out about that. So what we have tried to do and kind of learned how to do is tell a story with your listing. So you've got your photos. Tell a story with your photos. Get your professional photos. Don't take them with your iPhone. Sure, you can.

But if you want to really stand out from the rest of the time, of the crowd, differentiate yourself, get professional photos done. Get an interior designer to kind of spruce up your place, make it look funky and cool, because the whole idea is to get people to stop scrolling once they see your headline photo and say, I want to stay at that place. Like those covered wagons, you show the inside of it and you think, I'm going to stay at that place. That looks really cool. Right. So photos are critical. The listing itself, you want it to tell a story. So that inherently is marketing. You're marketing on the OTAs, which are just the online travel agencies, Airbnb, VRBO, booking.com. There's a whole laundry list of them. You want to be listed on as many as possible,

but you also want to have an efficient way to manage each one of those. And so that's where we started discovering some different software tools. So one software tool is you gain more and more listings, it becomes a little bit of a nightmare to try and coordinate all the different calendars. is called a PMS property management system. And that's kind of your centralized hub for your operation. All of the information, pictures, descriptions, reviews, flows through your PMS. That's also a really efficient way to communicate with your guests. Different PMSs are out there.

They all have different pricing structures. The one that we use is called owner res for owner reservations. And we've been beyond pleased with how it's worked out. It's nimble, it's flexible, and it kind of gives you, a central reservoir to look at your business in a snapshot and then take action from there, whether it's updating pricing, communicating with guests, changing you up your listing description, things like that. So on the marketing front, you'll list them on the OTAs, your big box travel sites. What we've started doing, and this was our COVID hobby project, was we created our

own website, and now we're marketing pretty heavily to generate direct bookings from guests. Okay. It's a direct result of what happened during COVID. In March and April of 2020, we were in the thick of it, and the world was ending is what it felt like. Airbnb and VRBO went in and said, if a guest wanted to cancel, they've got free reign to cancel. There's no recourse.

It doesn't matter what you've worked out in terms of a deposit, a whole, anything. The guest was free and clear. And so what does that do to us as the host? Well, it completely chops us at the knees, because that's income that we're counting on. That's cash flow we're needing to run the business. And so after that, we committed to developing another avenue of marketing with direct booking. So created a website, created a booking engine.

And so now we're slowly but surely collecting guest email addresses so that we can market to them in the future. We just started doing that with phone numbers. There's actually a lot of regulation about getting people's phone numbers and getting permission to protects marketing and whatnot. So we're slowly figuring that out. But just looking for different ways to talk to people outside of trying to compete with Google with AdWords and keywords. But finding a very genuine, personalized connection with guests, future and past guests, to entice them to come back and stay with us again. So is pay-per-click advertising how you're promoting your websites right now? Not as much.

We're relying pretty heavily on email marketing. So we've got a tool that we use, and this is probably one of the best kept secrets that I found, but it's a Wi-Fi marketing tool, and it's called StayFi. And the way that it works is if you think about when you go to Starbucks, for instance, they used to do this. You go sit down at Starbucks. You want to get onto the Wi-Fi. We've got to submit your name, your email address, maybe your phone number to get access.

And the same concept here is in order for the guest to access the Wi-Fi, they've got to give us their name, email, phone number. If they want to, they can opt-in to marketing communications, capture that, and then remark it to them. The big difference for why this is so great is in the past, you didn't get a guest email address unless they were the booking guest. So they could be one out of ten guests in our units. We want all ten. And so this Wi-Fi marketing tool gives us the ability to do that. Then you integrate that with your marketing machine, MailChimp, Constant Contact, one of those.

develop your templates and then stay in touch personally with those guests directly. So you're attracting them through an Airbnb, but once they check in, now you're collecting all that information that way. Yeah, we do that digitally and physically. So digitally, we're capturing their info, and we're telling them at every corner, book directly with us on your next trip, and you can save a lot of money because these OTAs have a lot of fees built in. So save money, book directly. Here's how you do it. We have some signs as little reminders in the units themselves.

So is they're having a good time to say, oh, we love this place. We want to come back. It says, here, I can get 10% off my next day if I book on this website. So it's these constant little reminders to get retrain people's brains. Book directly with us. You save money and his host. We have a little bit more control over the booking process, and that's really the name of the game. Got it.

It just said then people wanted to come back and maybe think about our online world now of customer reviews and stuff like that. Have you had to deal with any tough reviews and how do you manage those? Should you have someone that has a bad experience or to someone's a jerk? Yeah, it's tough. And reviews are probably the most dreaded aspect for hosts with short-term rentals

because it cuts both ways. It's very similar to your Uber review. Some people don't know they've got an Uber score, but you do. Your driver rates you and vice versa. So Airbnb works the same ways. They have some pretty strict parameters on that process.

But once you understand the rules of the game in the exact timeline of how a review works, you can work that system to your advantage, completely legal, completely above board, but it's all a big puzzle that you need to fit together in the right timing. For instance, here's a good example. We had a guest two weeks ago, had a great time on Broadway, which is the main strip here in Nashville, probably a little too much fun, threw up all over the sheets, comforters, bed skirt, everything. and it had to be replaced. It was staying.

It was nasty. So what Airbnb does is you've got two weeks post-stay for you to leave a review for the guests. Guests are leave a review for you. So our MO is we don't leave a review first because typically if a guest leaves a review for you, it's positive. Most people don't go out of their way to leave a negative review. And if they do, you already know about something that happened. And you should be actively mitigating that at all cost. So, and then after that, once the guest has reviewed, then you can charge them for those items.

That's a little trick that we learned because if you charge them first, the review will likely not be as good or good at all. And we found that Airbnb and VRBO are not your friends. They're great platforms and they're great at what they do. But when it comes down to a guest who's paying more of the percentage of the booking fee than you are as the host, who do you think they're going to side with? They're going to side with the guest. So oftentimes we'll side with the guests and you're either out some money or you're not getting back as much as you want. But that leads me to the other thing, which is constant contacts and thorough communication with your guests.

And so we try and get in touch with guests as many different ways as they would like us to. So setting expectations about their stay. You can do that through email. You can do that through the native messaging portals on each platform. Hey, here's what's coming up. Here's some great things to look forward to in Nashville, all these different things. Here's the next step. Here's when you're going to receive your check-in information.

Here's what will be in there. And then send the check-in information. So that way they feel comfortable opening up. You've got a good conversation going. And you can also squash problems quickly if they do come up because if a guest is upset, they're probably going to tell you. And then you can start to work with them to make sure it's a happy ending for them and a happy ending for you as well.

Got it. So you just mentioned a lot of start? Are you in communication a lot with your guests or are this all in an automated system? The great part about this is, and this is how we were able to run a small, short-term rental business with corporate jobs, is 95% of this business can be outsourced and automated. And so that's what kept us above float. I'm a millennial by nature. And so I'm on my phone a lot. I'm on my laptop a lot.

COVID accelerated, this digital world that we live in with Zoom calls like this one. And so everything you can do, you can set up online in most areas you can automate them, from pricing adjustments to guest communication, to scheduling the cleaner, scheduling a maintenance man, and everything in between. You can completely automate and outsourced where you're, we have three properties, and I spend no more than 30 minutes a day in our business. And that's just because I like it. I like communicating with the guests if I need to.

I like to know what's going on because we pride ourselves on offering. a really great guest experience. We think that's one area. And feedback from guests has been, hey, you guys offer a great experience from start to finish. It's not just putting up a cool listing with some cool photos and then it kind of falls flat. We try and wrap our arms around the whole process. So from the instant they reach out and say, hey, we're interested. We've got a couple of questions about your place, being very thorough, communicative, transparent. I mean, having good customer service to the very end. And what will do at the very end? And what will do at the very end is once they check out, we'll say, we don't ask for five-star reviews. We kind of approach it

with a little bit different angle because you're not supposed to ask for five-star reviews. I know a lot of people probably do. But just in following that guideline, what we'll say is, hey, we hope you enjoyed your stay. If for any reason you feel like you can't give us a five-star review, please let us know. We'd love to hear from you. We're always trying to improve the guest experience. And that's the last automated message that goes out the day that they depart. So if there's a problem, they're going to tell me about it privately, and they probably won't leave a review. But if they've had a great stay, say, hey, thanks for a great stay.

We'll put a little line in there about, hey, positive reviews are the lifeblood of our business. We rely on them. We need them. So thank you in advance. If you want to leave one, most people will leave one. And it works out. Got it. You know the hospitality business, really.

Customer experience is really important. Yeah, you're kind of a combo between operations, logistics, hospitality, sales. a little bit of all of those things. But that's what makes it dynamic and fun. No day is the same. And I think that's why you can wake up and be passionate about some things. It's invigorating. I mean, you're constantly meeting cool people from all around the world

with great stories to tell. So you get out of it, what you put into it. And so we really enjoy it. So it makes it a lot easier to run a business this way. Yeah. What's the saying? If you do what you love, you'll never work another day in your life, right? That's it right there.

There's a question, and we'll move on to Crypto. What about finding someone in the area that would give tours of city or town? Do you make anything like that? Yeah, so one thing we do is we offer a digital guidebook, and we do our digital guidebook through a company called Touch Stay, and they've got a partnership with our local short-term rental association here in Nashville, and it's cool what they do. So kind of building on this question,

if you're looking for someone to do a wine tasting tour or a bourbon tour, or some type of tour or activity around town, you can go out and build relationships with those people. And so what this digital guidebook will contain is not only all the information about your house, local things to do, but we can also connect them with some discount codes or different local offers that we've kind of prearranged ahead of time to say, hey, if you go to this particular tap room, you can get 10% off by mentioning the name of our company. Same thing for finding someone in the area where you can give tours,

kind of builds your network of folks. We've got a big network of short-term rental investors here in Nashville's popular place. And the Facebook group is always chiming in with different kinds of ideas and suggestions and questions. Oh, nice. What to do? This guest has this request. Where can I take them? So it's cool how the community rallies around it.

Technically, they're competitors, but a rising tide lifts all votes, right? So the more that we can help other people, we'll feel like that comes back to help us as well. So it's knowing your market really well, knowing resources. in your market, because you're not going to have all the answers. But if you know who to go to and who to contact, you can definitely set up tours for the guest. And that's a great way to continue that guest experience. Perfect. Last thing I was just thinking about this, and I thought about this a minute ago, was when it comes to the short-term rental business, it's like the regulation, the legislation, it's a little bit of a moving target.

It looks like it's evolving and it's rather volatile either one way or the other. This is how you stay in touch with that. and it's, I guess it's your responsibility to know the rules. Is it through your communities and stuff or is there an Airbnb? Do they go ahead and they give you the idea of what's changing and like that? Yeah, it's a little bit of both, but it's mostly the community. So it's really going to be your local short-term rental association. Most mid-to-large cities will have meetup groups, Facebook groups.

I think Nashville's got six or seven Facebook groups last time I checked. So every once in a while I'll get in there and kind of peruse for information. But a lot of it is just plugging in, knowing the information, Nashville, for instance, I can't speak to other markets, but I know Nashville like the back of my own hand now. Their regulations are constantly changing. The short-term rental groups are constantly budding heads with the hotel lobby because we are in direct competition with them. Whether it's different ruled regulations, zoning ordinances and whatnot, there's always something developing. So you do need to learn your zoning code, what's allowed, what are the rules of the process? And as long as you're playing by the rules, it's a good thing because you're providing tourism, you're providing taxes for the city, income from the city. I don't think cities will ever ban short-term rentals outright because they make too much money off of them. You follow the money and to understand how the government will want to work, but you need to be familiar with them. By no means you have to be an expert, though. Got it. Cool. Thanks for that. Let's shift gears.

Let's talk about cryptocurrency. That's how you and I initially met. How long have you been involved and what got you inspired and what are you doing with it today? Yeah, well, so I kind of had a a funny story getting started in crypto. It started in 2017. And I just knew about it kind of on a very topical level. So a friend of a friend was starting a hedge fund. How many times we all heard that? Right. Friend and family hedge fund, get involved and the more people that you bring in with you will cut our fees. And so I said, okay, sounds great. I've got a bunch of friends that want to get into it, but just don't know how. So we invest in this hedge fund. And this was, this ran on for a little bit of time, and then during the COVID crash, hedge funds gets wiped out. They were using leverage to

try and juice the returns. So when they were longing these cryptos and the market dropped, they got liquidated. Fund went to zero. It was a crypto hedge fund is what you're saying. What's that? It was a crypto hedge fund. It was a crypto hedge fund. Okay, got it. Yeah, crypto-specific hedge fund. Fund went to zero. The general partner of the fund, who actually has a pretty big name in crypto, went personally bankrupt with. this fund. And so there was nothing else left. So it was gone. So we licked our wounds and we said, okay, let's rebuild. Let's do it the right way. And so that's when the education piece started. And by far in a way, that's what crypto has to be built on is education and just understanding

what it is, why it has utility, why it's important, and why a lot of people think it's got a really bright future for what we're doing. So that's kind of how I got into it. And then the education piece led into dabbling in a bunch of different things before I kind of found my niche and my sweet spot, which is exactly where you and I met on Twitter. Right. Yeah, I got started in 2017 as well and didn't know anything other than a friend said, do it. That's like, okay.

And that just downloaded the Coinbase app. And I think I put 500 bucks on Bitcoin that day when I got the bank of calved up. And I didn't know anything. And maybe until just about a year and a half ago, all I would do was just, I didn't feel like doing all the research. So I just like put every time Coinbase approved a coin, I just put it on $50 a week auto buy. Looking back, that was an amazing, amazing. I was a very stark strategy. I was like, let me just leverage their due diligence.

They'd say it's okay for it. And that grew up into a very significant portfolio. And then about a year and a half ago, I got really kind of more interested. I had a friend that introduced me the world of decentralized finance and all the different DFI app like that. And stumbled across those strong notes.

That was where I got started. And that was back in June. So almost a full year. What a life changer that was. I don't even look at my portfolio anymore because I'm more monitoring the passive income I get to spend every week. It's liberating, isn't it?

It is. You don't feel like you have to check your portfolio 50 times a day to get the latest price movement. It's a great feeling. Yeah. And, you know, if I was confident enough that these nodes would be there as long as my real estate, as long as my property, I probably quit real estate just because that's how productive it's been. I mean, I did the calculation on my strong nodes. It was about three months ago. I was like, gosh, if I were to duplicate this in real estate, I have to buy 450 more houses. No. Right? And I was like, that is remarkable. But, you know, crypto is still. relatively a new asset, and it's really volatile, and there's lots of evolution going on,

lots of experiments going on. You just don't know what the losers are going to be. And I think a lot of people use this as well. Back when the internet started, if you'd push all your chips in on Pets.com, it would have been a big loser, but the internet certainly did not lose, right? Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting about crypto, because now that I've left my corporate job, and what gave me the financial security and freedom to do that was crypto. So I love the space. I'm heavily invested in it, but it wasn't through speculating on the price of Bitcoin. It wasn't through, you know, leveraging or derivatives or anything like that. It wasn't until exactly like you, I discovered Strongblock. And then from there, you start to

understand what is this space of nodes? How do I build on this? How does it all work? So you discover that's true form of passive income. The only caveat being, we don't know how long it's going to last. but it looks like it's constantly innovating and developing. So I have confidence that it will stand the test of time. It's just a matter of what is it going to look like in the future. But once you discover nodes, and for those listening that don't know what a node is, cryptocurrency is kind of the headline word.

It runs on top of blockchain. And blockchain is an open ledger technology to where it's transparent, and it helps create a very secure and scalable network. cryptocurrency runs on top of that. In order to secure a blockchain, you need endpoints. And so I think of the blockchain in my head as a big janga pile. Every time a new block goes in, that's a new little janga piece. But in order to secure those blocks, you need what are called nodes.

And so nodes are endpoints that facilitate the transfer of data, secure the network, and make it run hyper efficiently. in order to set up a node, you have to submit, contribute capital of that native blockchain token. And then as a reward for doing that and contributing your capital to the network, you receive a return. So think of it like a dividend or interest based on network volume. So some of these networks that have super high volumes pay out a lot of interest to your node. And it truly becomes a form of passive income. So you're still dipping your toe into the digital world of crypto.

but you've got a form of passive income. You're not having to check the charts. You're not having to understand technical analysis and some of those crazy stuff that the gurus can do. You can have exposure to the space, but sit back and collect your rewards and take your profits and put it right into your bank account if you want.

You can compound your rewards to create more nodes, which is going to increase your passive income. So there's a lot of different options there. And then when you have that financial freedom, that mental freedom, to not have to check the charts and worry about the price of Bitcoin all the time, you can go deep on research

and understanding, well, what is Defi? How does it work? And why are so many people talking about it? Why are the banks so afraid of it? What is Bitcoin? Why is it capped at $21 million? Why are all these celebrities buying it? You just have time to focus on that stuff

and understand the space on a deeper level. And that's what's required to be successful in crypto. For sure. And even with the notes, as good as they've been, And I think I've invested in seven different ones because I wanted the diversity and I wanted the sustainability and I didn't know which one was going to be the winner. But five of those seven have been absolute losers for me. Yeah. You know, so it's not like a surefire bet and a sure thing by any means.

This whole idea of the docks or undoxed, right? If people have revealed who they're, who they actually are. I mean, can you even imagine, most people can't imagine investing in a fund where they don't know who the owners are. But it happens in crypto on the blockchain all the time. All the time. It's prevalent. You had any losers? Oh, yeah.

Anyone that tells you they haven't had a loser in crypto is lying to your face. I've had several losers. And I'm not too proud to admit it because it's a part of my journey, a part of my story. And I think it helped me become a better digital asset investor because of it. But before nodes became really hot and popular, there was a phase where everyone was investing in Dow's, DAOs. Right. Mineralized autonomous organizations. And they were basically like syndications.

But instead of a real estate syndication, what's the first thing you do to go look up the general partner? You Google search them. You look them up on LinkedIn. Well, you can't do that on crypto because a lot of times these teams are anonymous, which means they're not doxed. Crypto's got a whole different vocabulary that I had to pick up on. They're not KYC'd, which means no one has verified who they are, where they are, what they do, nothing. So basically completely anonymous. and you're submitting capital hoping that they can grow it.

So that's where it becomes really important in crypto is getting to know the team, understand the team. The best way to do that is to hop on Twitter where we met. You want to dive deeper than that on a project protocol, specific level, hop into their Discord. The developers that are creating these services and protocols will interact directly with you. Free access straight to the guy who's coding in the background. So you do have an unparalleled level of access.

But you do have to be very careful with that because I got caught up with Ring. I got caught up in Time Wonderland. Soldier nodes, I think, was one of them that was a total bust. So there have been four or five that didn't turn out well. But on the flip side of that, the ones that don't turn out well, you've got one or two that rocket ship to the moon. So it more than makes up for it. It also reignites your fire to stay engaged in the space.

Right. Yeah, it's very much like the venture capital model. then invest in 20 businesses hoping for one winner. And that's kind of how this has turned out. And even when it's what you said, you mentioned the time who had a very reputable person behind it

with a huge track record. So that seemed like a really safe one. I think a lot of people lost there. I certainly did. And then you look at something like soldier nodes, which I didn't get into, but I was about to, I was really considering it because

their website was beautiful, the mechanics of it was great. You're just like, no one would go to this much trouble just to pull a scam on somebody. It was so gorgeous and it was like so in depth as, you know. Yeah. Well, the crypto term for scam is a rugpole.

And so there's nothing. And the way of rugpole works is it's obviously not advertised, but you literally go to the dashboard on the website and the website doesn't work. And then you quickly log into the Twitter page to check out what they're doing. Well, account doesn't exist anymore. That's what a rugpole feels like. And it is terrible. Yeah.

Because it basically just vaporizes in. to thin air, and all your money is gone. You have no recourse, no, no action. So that's why it's important to understand how to verify and speak with some of these developers before investing in them. You and I, Matt, have been fortunate to not only with Strongblock, but with Phoenix Community Capital, kind of came out of nowhere, and it was around the same time when there was a bunch of these rugs happening, where projects were just disappearing under the cover of darkness. And so I took a chance on Phoenix Community Capital, and it is, by and large, proved to be one of the best crypto bets that I've had, continue to compound. But you get

direct access to these developers and their teams. They do what are called AMAs. Ask me anything. Where the developer will hop on Discord and say, hey, what questions do we have from the community? Anything's fair game. I'm here to answer it. And I just think that's so cool. You would never get that with a Wall Street hedge fund. You would never get that with some sort of real estate syndication. There's this unparalleled access. And I think that's part of this new digital age, which makes it really exciting. For guys like me who are never the smartest guy in the room, I can talk to some really smart people who have great ideas and the coding skills to put it into action.

For sure. Yeah, if anybody wants to look at it, and we're not affiliated with it either. We're just in bed in them, so we're just the radio person that took a shot, and it seems to have worked out. It would be strong block. The token is strong. S-T-R-O-N-G, and then there's Phoenix Community Capital, which is

it's rather new. So, still necessarily unproven, but all, everything is pointing in the right direction for them. And that token is fire. But just keep in mind, if you go look at that, I have an higher risk tolerance than most people for this type of stuff.

So I'm willing to roll the dice and take chances. And I've done that about seven times over the last year and these different types of node. It's more like a rebased token. Rebased token. Rebase token. But it works for it. Like on the user side, the investor side, it feels very much the same.

Out of seven, five lost, and these two have hung on and they're doing really well. So just keep that of mind when you go out there if you're going to look at that because you'll find all types of other avenues and other things to look at as well. And some of that stuff is pretty seductive and enticing and your emotions get involved. And it's like sometimes it's hard to resist. Well, money is money. And sometimes it's hard to keep your emotions in check when you just see digits on a screen. And you're like, well, I'll go ahead and just roll it over.

we're all invests in this. One thing that I've focused on a lot lately is, you know, obviously you and I have been in the space for several years now. So we have a comfort level with stuff that a lot of people would consider far off the risk spectrum. What I focused on is now that I've departed the corporate world, a lot of friends, family, colleagues have come out and said, how are you doing what you're doing? Teach me. And I'm like, okay, well, so I found this platform. I'm not affiliated with them. I don't have an affiliate link. I just think they're great. And I really think this is where the industry is going to head in the future. This platform was just acquired by Betterment, who is the robo advisor, pretty well known in the space. Platform is called

Macara. And basically what Macara does is they create crypto index funds. And so if you think about investing in the stock market, you've got a large cap growth, small cap value, and everything in between, same concept, but with crypto. And so they create these thematic baskets as well. what they call them of a blue chip basket, a Metaverse basket, Web 3.0 basket. They even have an inflation head basket. So all these different little things that you can play with. And if you can connect that directly to your bank account or SEC registered. So when friends and family and colleagues reach out and go, where do I start without giving them a diatribe on blockchain? And here's how, you know, here's what DFI is. Right. Here, go check out Macara. They've got a great

platform. It's a M-A-K-A-R-A. Got it. SEC registered. So I send all of my friends and family there to get started. You're not going to learn as well unless you have skin in the game, even if it's $100. But skin in the game, because then you're going to learn, it's going to resonate with you. And you can still take advantage of a lot of the crypto space and some of the price points that happen. For sure. Perfect. Awesome.

Well, Chandler, it's been a pleasure. Let's stay in touch. Perhaps we'll do this again and prepare war stories again in the future. If someone wanted to get in touch with you, what would be the best way for them to do that? Yeah, that sounds good. So the best way to get in touch is via email. So my email is Chandler, C-H-A-N-D-L-E-R at hostfolio, h-o-o-t-o-o-o-o-o-P-O-O-O-P-O-O-P-O-R-T-O-O-R-P-O-R-P-E-O-R-R-E-O-R-P-E-N-R-E-N-E-R-E-O-R-E-R-E-R-E-E-R-E-E-R-E-E-R-E-E-E-R-E-E-E-E-R-E-E-E-E-E-E- nothing in return. If we can click the light bulb on for at least one person, I think that's

gratifying to me because there's a lot of cool opportunities out there and financial freedom awaits on the other side of it. For sure. It's a remarkable time that we get to live during this period right now because there's so many opportunities available and so much it shoots from that sometimes it doesn't feel like we're living in the real world. Like it doesn't... Because half the time we're not. You're starting to talk about the metaverse and I don't know if you consider that the real world or not. I know. That's another thing I want to talk about is that's being in real estate inside of the Metaverse. So maybe for another time. I really appreciate you to take the time out. It was nice meeting you.

And we'll stay in touch. Yeah, that sounds great, Matt. Thanks for having me. We'll talk soon. And that wraps up the epic show. If you found this episode valuable, who else do you know that might too? There's a really good chance you know someone else who would. And when their name comes to mind, please share it with them. And ask them to click the subscribe button when they get here and I'll take great care of them. God loves you, and so do I. Health, peace, blessings, and success to you. I'm Matt Terrio. Living the dream. Yeah, yeah, we got the cash flow.

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But first? There, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes. This podcast is a part of the C-Suite Radio Network. More top business podcasts, visit c-sweetradio.com.