Epic Real Estate Investing - The Other Side of Real Estate Investing with Abby Shemesh | EREI 179

Episode Date: October 28, 2015

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Go to epicfastfunding.com. This is Terrio Media. Casting from Terrio Studios in Glendale, California, it's time for Epic Real Estate Investing with Matt Terrio. Uh, yeah, hello, and welcome. Welcome to Epic Real Estate Investing, the place where I show people how to escape the rat race using real estate.

A lot of people think this is a real estate show. It's not a real estate show. It's a money show. It's a financial freedom show. It's a rat race escape show. Real estate is just the vehicle we use here to do that, to accomplish our goals. And the reason being is real estate is the last and final frontier

where the average person just has a legitimate shot at creating any sort of financial independence. And you just got to do one thing, one simple thing, to shift your focus from making piles of money to making streams of money, change that one thing one time and you are on your way. It's not the most exciting path. No, it's why you don't hear about it too often.

It's not that exciting. So I'm going to promise you that it's not exciting. But it is the fastest. And for that reason, I have no idea why more people don't share this. I suppose the faster you get out of the rat race, the less money that other people make or something. I don't know. But it is the fastest. And that, too, is a promise.

And once you get their life then becomes exciting. And to take your first step to that exciting life, go to free real estate investing course.com of where you learn the most valuable skill of a real estate investor. How to find motivated sellers. How to find the deal specifically. Because with the foundation of every deal, every real deal,

lies within the seller's motivation to sell. So if you can't find that motivated seller and you can't tell once you've actually found whether there's enough motivation there or not, to create a deal for yourself, it's going to be a tough road for you. So I put together this free course, free real estate investing course.com. I put that course there together to show you how to find motivated sellers. And then I show you how to do everything else as well.

And that's all included too. And that's going to help you. All you put all that together brings you right up to your first paycheck or your next paycheck, whichever that may be. All righty. So I've got a great show for you today, a different look at real estate from a note perspective. other side of real estate investing. And I will admit, I don't know much about the note market. I don't. I don't know much about that business. I mean, I understand it. I've got a grasp of it.

I do know how to create notes and I do know how to create those notes and profit from them. I've done that several times and that's part of our creative acquisition strategies here. And I understand the concept of buying notes at a discount from others and whether you hold them or resell them, whatever that may be. I understand that, but I've never done that part. So with the amount of notes that I do hold, though, as much as I've heard about the note business, I wouldn't be surprised if I were maybe leaving some money on the table somewhere.

There might be an additional excess strategy or a better way to structure my notes or, you know, I don't even know. So what I've been doing is I've been doing some investigating, doing some research, some studying, listening to other podcasts and audiobooks on the subject. and I ran across our guest today, who is the founder of a loan acquisition firm based out of San Francisco, which is primarily interested in the purchase and management of mortgage notes, mortgage loan portfolios, business notes, and many other debt instruments that are purchased and traded on the secondary loan market.

See, I don't know what the secondary market is. I mean, I know what it is, but I don't know how to get there. I don't know where to go look for it. I don't know where to find it. So what I did is I asked him to join us today. and share about himself and what his business does and what he knows about the note industry. And we'll get into that conversation right after this. If opening up your financial statement each month is about as exciting as watching paint dry,

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herein shall be construed as investment, tax, legal, or accounting advice. On the phone today, I'm joined by Mr. Abbey Shamesh. Abby, welcome to Epic Real Estate Investing. Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. You bet. I'm always looking for alternative ways to create passive income. It's what got me out of the rat race.

And you are working in the world of notes. I think you have a rather unique business model. I don't know too much about it. But if you could bring me up to speed on what you do and what your company does, that would be a great place for us to start. Sure, Matt. That would be no problem. So our company, Amerenote Exchange, is a direct purchaser of first-position mortgage loans or mortgage notes,

as well as first-position business notes. That would be notes secured by small businesses as well. And we purchase in all 50 states, and like I said, we are a direct purchaser of said assets. Got it. Okay. And then once you purchase them, then what do you do? That's a good question. It really depends.

uh... there's you know obviously uh... you know the the money that we borrow is a finite resource uh... or the money that we use i should say some of it is borrowed capital some of it is uh... in fact capital that we use that as our own uh... and then a lot of the notes i would say a good portion of the notes are just completely not a good fit for our criteria so uh... a lot of the troublesome notes would be sold off to private investors or institutional investors uh... after they are purchased of course so that's really uh... the gist of it before

For the majority of the notes that we do purchase for our own portfolio, we do hold those to term. And that would be the long and the short of how we operate. Got it. Okay. So let's start from our origination. Where is your biggest and best source? Where do you find most of your notes? That's a very good question.

A lot of the notes are found through digital means. The Internet is our primary mode. We do a lot of organic search results, so a lot of the sellers that find us and brokers that find us will just do a simple search such as direct-note buyer or sell mortgage note buyer, something to that effect. They would find us in an organic search, or sometimes a paid search like AdWords or pay-per-click, and they would come to our website and reach out to us. We do have a lot of referrals as well from attorneys and CPAs and real estate agents and business brokers that we've built a relationship

over many years doing this as well as title agents, closing agents and so forth that come across a lot of notes as well. But that's really the gist of it. A lot of the brokers out there do have the need for sending out letters to note holders that either just recently became new note holders or that have been note holders for some time, and they do that by tapping the public records of the county that they're targeting, and then, of course, sending them out a postcard or a letter or something that effect. And we don't really use that mode anymore. It does serve its purpose, but we kind of outgrown it, so to speak.

Okay. So there's a couple questions I got in there. So the person that comes to you to sell their note, they're holding this instrument that produces this, monthly income, and they'd rather just have a lump sum. Is that right? That is correct. So they have this I-O-U or someone owes them a promise to pay over, you know, 10, 20, 30 years. And these folks have other cash needs, you know, that monthly payment is great, but some of these folks see that there's another real estate investment out there that they want,

where they want to buy a business, or something to that effect or help put their kids through college or whatever the case may be. Some may just want to purchase a car and not even sell the whole note. And I can expand on that in a moment if you so desire. But they hold the note and they look to cash out in the form of a lump sum at a discount. So they're not going to get the entire lump sum owed to them due to several factors that I can again expand on. Got it. Okay. So they're in a position where they'd rather have it all at once rather than overtime. And, And they come to do that, basically like when you win the lottery. You can have this much over time where you can cash it all right now.

Exactly. It's exactly right. I also refer when a lot of note sellers come to me, depending on the time in which they grew up, I can tell you when I was a child, my grandmother used to buy me the government bonds. It took seven years to mature. And if you cashed out the bond prior to the seven-year maturity, you wouldn't get the full amount. And that's really similar to the same type of situation. with the no process because there's a start date or an origination date.

There's a first payment date. And then there's a maturity date. And that maturity date will identify the loan coming to full maturity and being worth what the loan is owed at that time. One thing you said that you don't do the postcards in the letters because you've outgrown that. And that's a primary way that we run our business. And that really feeds us and it feeds us well.

And it feeds a lot of people that are listening to you right now. When you say you've outgrown it, I know my, my, audience is always looking for different ways to generate leads and we're looking for distressed notes we look for distressed properties and so with you know PPC and I don't know I guess go expand a little bit on what you mean you've outgrown it and why it's better for you now I actually have a couple of things that I hold close to the best that I would be more than happy to explain to your audience and the reason that I say we outgrown them is you know buying homes at distressed homes online I don't know I mean I could be mistaken but I've I've

done searches in this realm before. And there's not a whole heck of a lot of competition that pops up. I mean, you have what we buy houses.com, which is a franchise and other things, but there's not a lot of home buyers, distressed home buyers that are advertising like the note business. So it's a little bit different. For instance, if I send a postcard out to a person buying notes, I would do that because I have a limited budget. That would be the first logical step for a newer note broker that is breaking into the business. They can spend a very small amount of money and get, you know, their message out to note holders. That being said, the turnaround time takes a while, and it usually takes about three to eight

times for the note seller to see your postcard to actually pick up the phone and call you. They don't usually do it on the first postcard that they get. I mean, it's just the law of numbers. It just does not usually happen. But when they do get the postcard and they do call you or they decide to call you, you give your best shot, and then what happens is they go online and they say, oh, Abby's going to buy my let me go see if there's someone else that will buy my note. And because our business, the note business is so saturated with online advertising,

they can find 15 other people by doing one Google search and then shopping around. And I may never hear from that person again. In the home business, and again, I could be mistaken, it's not as saturated when you do an organic search in a local area. So the postcards may be much more effective in your industry as opposed to the secondary loan acquisition business or the discounted note business. I see. So that would be my explanation to that.

Again, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not. No, I get it. So you're saying direct mail naturally in today's environment, drive people to the Internet to start investigating, and then they'll bump into a bunch of competitors. Exactly. And I've captured so many leads from folks to say, hey, I got this postcard in the mail,

and I'm just calling around to see who else will do it. And we've got to the point where we took that seller and made turn him into a prospect, got him off the market and converted that lead into a sale without that person even having a chance to get back to the postcard senders. So that's why I say we've outgrown it. Got it. Nice. Okay.

So there's certainly some angles we could take in there from a marketing perspective that I can discuss with my audience later on. Absolutely. What, the other question I had for you, I got a bunch of them. Can I also expand on the pay advertising that you represented? Because I want to give you guys something that you may or may not have heard, but I'm pretty sure you're, your listeners would love this. Sure. Please do.

So a lot of the web design and at web advertising that we've done, you know, when I started this company, you know, 10 years ago, it was all researched by myself. I mean, I started it from the ground up, so to speak. So there's a little trick. It may not be as prevalent nowadays, and it may be a little bit more regulated through Google, but I know if you use Google, pay-per-click advertising, or AdWords, or Microsoft or Yahoo Search. what you can do, a lot of people see that their competitive keyword phrases are very expensive.

I mean, they're just astronomical. 90% of the time, maybe not 90% of the time. A person types in, buy my house or distressed home buyer or whatever, eight times out of ten, that person is going to misspell the word, distressed home. They may forget the E on the end of home, or they may spell distress wrong. So instead of putting in the keyword term, distressed home buyer, you put in the misspellings. And you can, instead of spending $4, 5, 6 for one keyword term, you're spending 7 cents for a misspelling.

And then what you do is you take that misspelling or you take the correct spelling. Again, I'm using distressed homebuyer. And there's something called a keyword misspelling generator, that you could just do a quick Google search is about 14 different keyword generator mispellers on the web. you pick any one of them, you put the correctly spelled keyword term in the search engine box, and then it spits out 1,700 different ways to misspell that keyword. And then you copy it, you paste it, you put it in your Google AdWords dashboard, and each of them will cost you anywhere between one and 20 cents to, you know, if you get a click on it.

And that way you're exploiting the misspellings of the way that the seller or the property home seller would try to reach out to you or one of your listeners. And that way, you're going in through the back door. I love it. This is the world of typos, for sure. People are so fast. They don't pay that much of attention to detail. I love it.

That's fantastic. Good. I don't know how many. Yeah, absolutely. It does take a couple minutes to get the hang of it. And you know, you may need to refine your search. It's not as easy. I mean, it is as easy as copy and pasting,

but you may not get the knockout of the park results that you want the first time, but you may get it the fifth or six times. So it's a hell of a lot easier than going in through the front door. Awesome. Thank you, Abby. Thanks for sharing that. Okay, so you buy the notes, you did this.

And then, okay, so through this podcast, a lot of what we teach, and this is how I was able to basically escape the rat races through a lot of creative acquisitions where I actually created notes to purchase people's properties. And a lot of people here and a lot of my students have followed in my footsteps and doing the exact same thing. So are those notes that you would be interested in buying? Could you be a potential exit strategy for my students? Yes, under certain conditions.

So it all depends on how the note is structured, what's the characteristics of the loan terms, what's the characteristics of the property. Now, I will tell you, a lot of real estate investors and a lot of note buyers, especially property flippers. I don't know if that's necessarily a big portion. Maybe it is a big portion of your listening base, but I say my biggest, I'll just say real estate investors in general, but a specific subcategory would be property flippers that buy cheap,

try to get in, they try to get everything fixed up as quickly as possible, flip it, get their money, move on to the next project. That being said, a lot of the no-pires, a lot of the real-state investors, their business models clash sometimes, and they don't have to, but they clash because real-state investors want to get in and out, and no buyers want to make sure they take their time. They want to make sure that the person, they want to see payment history, they want to see that the borrowers nice and secure and steady. They don't want a shotgun wedding, so to speak.

So in that sense, there's ways to do that, and the way to do that is several. First and foremost, the down payment. If you buy a home and you fix it up, you flip it, you want to make sure that you get a decent down payment at the time of sale. the larger the down payment that you collect from a borrower or a property buyer, the more money you're going to sell that note for, plain and simple. The reason why is it determines the potential security in the investment as an asset in someone's portfolio. And that's just the bottom line.

So that's number one. Number two is credit of the buyer. If you're going to sell a house and carry paper, you want to check credit, period. Now, we're not looking, me personally, I don't need a 720 FICO score, but what we do ask for is a very, very low average credit score, bordering on poor credit even, and we can still make an aggressive offer. And that score would be somewhere between 615 and 650, as long as they have a score in that range. And most Americans do in this economic landscape, then you should be good. That's the second thing. The third item is loan terms and amortization.

You want to make sure that if you do stretch the loan over 30 years, understand that your note will probably be significantly discounted. The best notes pay, or the best payment on notes are notes that are structured 10-year full amortization or to 15-year full amortization. Now, a lot of borrowers and buyers may not be able to afford that, so you've got to kind of work with what you can, but those are the notes to pay the most. You can also add a balloon payment in there, but I would also recommend that if you do add in a balloon payment,

you want to make sure that you're following the new Dodd-Frank investment guidelines, because balloon payments are affected by the Wall Street Reform Act. That was just put into effect January 14, 2014. So you want to make sure that that's taken care of. But that's the long and the short of it. If you can do that, then yes, I can be an exit strategy. And you don't have to sell the whole note. you may just want to sell a portion of the note.

If you can't meet all those criteria, sell a portion of the note. So there's different ways that we can do that. And I have no problem fleshing this out with any potential investor. It says, hey, I got this property. This is what I want to do. I want to flip the note. What do you think? It would always be advised to call the note buyer before you create any kind of note

because once you create it, you're stuck with it if it doesn't sell. Right. Got it. Okay, so that's crystal clears and straight to the point. Can people buy notes from you? Absolutely. The purchase of notes is something that we don't typically advertise, but if, like for instance, I'll give you the perfect example.

I, about three months ago out of the clear blue, an investor called me, he said, or an assistant to the investor called me and said, hey, you know, this guy wants to purchase, you know, distressed non-performing notes. and, you know, all the right things are being said. It wasn't like a, as we call them, a joker broker who calls up, it really has no idea what they're talking about. They try to, you know, muscle their way in and not really show anything for it. Those are the ones that we really can't do any business with, unfortunately,

but this person had proof of funds. They, you know, were obviously a real estate investor looking to get into the discounted note business and purchasing foreclosing, non-performing notes in order to get the property. So they had a clear intent. It really depends.

If you do want to buy notes, you want to identify what your end result should be. Do you want to just get that monthly payment every month and not have to worry about foreclosures or anything like that and just get like a good note that pays on time every month?

If so, you're going to pay much more money for a note. You're still not going to pay full price. You'll actually pay anywhere between $0.65 cents on the dollar. as high as 90 cents on the dollar, depending on the characteristics of the loan in question. But if you're looking for non-performing assets, I mean, they can go for as little as 20 cents on the dollar, maybe less, as high as 55 cents on the dollar in some parts of California.

So it really depends on what you're looking to do, but proof of funds is mandatory in order to purchase notes from us. And once that first deal has closed, I mean, our lead generation sources at your at your call, so to speak. You just let us know what you're looking for, and we can work like that. And we are not a fund of any sort. We purchased loans for our own portfolio,

and then we'll also send off referrals for notes that other people want to buy as well in this case. Exactly what I'm talking about. So we do purchase whole loans, not mortgage-backed securities, just to clarify. Got it. Got it. Okay, so I just went to your website,

Amerenoteexchange.com, and if someone wanted to buy or sell, Is this something they can do straight through the website? Or they actually have to pick up the phone and call you and have a conversation? So if they want to buy, they have to pick up the phone. Because, again, that's not something that we readily advertise, but because your listener base is investor-driven, I would be more than happy to assist any one of your listeners

that are thinking about purchasing or having ideas about how they go about purchasing. I can point them in the right direction, even if they don't have proof of funds or the money to buy right now. And I can also talk about other creative ways to do that because you can buy a note as little as $3,000. $1,000 if you have the right note. I mean, it really depends. So that being said, if you're looking to sell a note, you go to the website, any page on the website at the top of the page, there's a tab that says get a quote. You would click on that tab. You would choose the type of note

you're selling, the collateral that's attached to the note, whether it be a small business, residential property, multifamily property, so forth and so on, and then you would fill out the submission form online. You can always call in if you have questions first, but in order to get a very quick offer. I'm talking same business day, sometimes in a matter of minutes of submitting. The best way to do that is click, get a quote.

That would be the best way. We also have on that website, if you go under seller tips on the navigation bar or learn about in the navigation bar, you'll find a slew of information, including a note seller's handbook on what to expect when you sell a note and so forth. And then, of course, under seller tips,

it will give you how to create a valuable mortgage note for resale step by step, as well as business notes, step by step. So a wealth of information on this website for investors and note sellers alike. Good looking website, too. Thank you. Appreciate it. We worked very hard. Yeah, no, it looks like it.

So is this your business, Abby? This is my business. That is correct. I am the managing partner of Amerenote Exchange. We are located in downtown San Francisco, in California, and have been around going on, wow, 10 years, 2005. Congratulations. You picked the time to get into it. Yeah, well, I've been in the mortgage business since 1999, so I was doing originations before this, so had a good deal of information pertaining to the mortgage business and real estate, and then made the full transition into the secondary

market, because the primary market is the origination or lending of money. That's the primary mortgage market. The secondary mortgage market is the acquisition or sale of loans, one they're created. So Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, those are the biggest purchaser of mortgage loans on the planet. But what we do, what they do on a much, much, much smaller scale, obviously. Got it. Well, I've asked everything that I know about notes. I mean, I know how to create them.

Sure. But I'm still like exploring and learning about how to sell them. And I think you cover these three points. You want to get a decent down payment. You want to get the credit score for the buyer. and you want to get loan terms in amortization, 10 to 15-year-full amortization are optimal, I guess. Yes, absolutely.

Balloons are good, too. And, again, balloons were, if you wanted to do a 30-year loan, and you want to have that cheap payment, but you want to have the loan pay off in 10 years so you can get your return on investment a lot quicker than 30, then you would just be easily put a balloon on it. But, again, when the market crash occurred, and in my personal opinion,

it's a little bit of a miscalculation, but the Congress and the president and the powers that B kind of swung the pendulum the other way way too far, and they really are regulating. They're basically saying that you cannot put a balloon payment in your own loan unless you get a licensed mortgage originator to do it. So anyone can still use a balloon payment, but you have to go to a license mortgage originator in the state that the property is being sold, and they have to put together the balloon note for you. when they do charge, it could be, you know, a couple hundred bucks, it could be a couple thousand bucks. So it's definitely going to add to the costs.

But you want to make sure that it is all legal and on the up and up. That is for sure. And, but yeah, the other two things I want to identify is the interest rate. The interest rate's very important. You want to make sure that the interest rate is, you know, it reflects the risk that the person selling the property and carrying the paper is taking. So with all due respect, if a buyer, wants a three and a half or four and a half percent interest rate,

with all due respect, they need to go to a bank. You want to make sure that that, that if they want a three and a half or four and a half percent interest rate, a buyer comes to, let's just say one of your listeners, one of your investors, and they say, okay, I want to buy this property. I want a four and a half percent interest rate, though, if you carry the paper. I mean, you can do that, but the note is not going to sell for as much. The interest rate is one of the mechanisms that determine,

not if the note can be sold, but how much the note will sell. sell for. The other mechanism is the payback period. That determines how much a note will sell for too. So those two mechanisms come into place. So if you have a 30-year note with a 3% balloon, there's almost 100% chance that you're not going to be able to sell that loan in its entirety. You're going to have to sell a portion of it first, and then maybe another portion of it later, because the risk is just too great on such a low percentage because, look, I don't pay 3% for my money. My money cost a heck of a lot more than 3%. So you want to make sure that the risk that one of your investors are taking reflected in that interest rate.

And my recommendation would be an interest rate somewhere between – and again, this is on seller finance paper. They can always refinance out of this and get a traditional bank loan. My recommendation would be somewhere between 7% as high as 10% depending on the down payment and the credit score. Again, private money is way more expensive than institutional money, and it should be reflected in those notes that are created. Perfect, perfect. And one thing, can I want to create a distinction here, that getting a licensed broker to generate the note, that is for a resident occupant owner that does not count as an... Yep. Right?

Okay. That is correct. That's exactly right. It's for a one-to-four family. Anything over four-family or commercial, you can do whatever you want, wherever you see fit. I shouldn't say whatever you want, but you do not need a little. license originator at that point. But I'm talking about a consumer residential loan, and that's consumer protection at its finest. I mean, some consumers, you know, and this is very consumer-friendly.

There's no doubt about it. It just definitely encroaches on the ability of private investors to put money out into the economy with these overreaching regulations. Again, that's just my opinion. I don't think all of them are overreaching. I definitely think seller finance notes did not get us into the problem of the banking crash in 2008, nor they should have been represented in that legislation. That is my personal opinion. It's an opinion that I share with you, Abby. So we did not cause the demise of the whole economy. Yeah, because we had a 9% note with a balloon payment on it.

Yeah, I mean, that's funny. It's ridiculous. Perfect. Well, we've been talking to Mr. Abby Shamesh of Amerenote Exchange. Abby, is there anything I forgot to ask that I should have asked? Well, you know, quite frankly, a lot of your listeners may be thinking about, well, how can I get into the discounted mortgage brokering business? Because a lot of folks get into the discounted mortgage brokering business to generate capital so, A, they can start buying their own notes or buying their own homes. But a lot of investors can buy homes through the acquisition of non-performing notes.

So if any of your investors are looking for the ability to kind of jump in and broker notes, you know, it's not, if you're looking for a get-rich-quick overnight kind of thing, this is definitely not it for you. But I would highly recommend coming to our website, checking it out. We do have some information pertaining to brokers. You also may want to check out websites like thepapersource.com, which is a longest-running broker magazine out there, and it's a tremendous wealth of information on brokering notes.

And, yeah, I mean, it's a pretty similar concept to getting into the discounted home-buying business, except for the simple fact that you can, in my opinion, get into a home a lot cheaper and a lot quicker through the acquisition of discounted notes. Again, that's just my opinion and my investment appetite. No, it's certainly a viable strategy for sure. Mr. Shamesh, thank you very much.

Let's do this again. Yeah, we'll do. I'll be here, Matt. Thank you so much for having me, and I wish the best of luck to all your listeners. Thank you. You know how some people want to invest in real estate, but they don't know how? Oh, yeah. And you know how some people want to invest in real estate, but they don't have the time?

Oh, yeah. And you know how some people want to invest in real estate, and they simply don't want to do all that work? Oh, yeah. Do you know someone like this? Mm-hmm. Perhaps that someone is you? Uh, yeah. If so, subscribe to the Turnkey Real Estate Investing podcast, the show for busy people who want to invest in real estate, but don't have the time or the desire to take on the heavy lifting.

Turnkey, real estate investing. Subscribe today. It's free. Yeah. Turnkey, Real Estate Investing. That's it for today. I'll see you next week on another episode of Epic Real Estate Investing. I'm Matt Terrio, Living the Dream. You've been listening to Epic Real Estate Investing, the world's foremost authority on separating the facts from the BS in real estate investing education.

If you enjoyed this show, please take a minute to visit iTunes and share your thoughts. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time here at Epic Real Estate Investing with Matt Terrio. This podcast is a part of the C-suite radio network. For more top business podcasts, visit C-Suite. www.sweetradio.com