Epicenter - Learn about Crypto, Blockchain, Ethereum, Bitcoin and Distributed Technologies - Adam Cleary, Frédéric Martin, Marco Peereboom, Nicolas Baca, Patrick Melton & Tamás Blummer: Bitcoin 2014 Amsterdam

Episode Date: June 19, 2014

This episode is part of our coverage of the Bitcoin 2014 Conference which took place in Amsterdam from May 15 to 17, 2014. Topics covered in this episode: Adam Cleary, founder of Bullion Bitcoin and Tamás Blummer of Bits of Proof Frédéric Martin and Nicolas Baca of Prismcide Patrick Melton of the Coinsider This Podcast Marco Peereboom, CEO of Coinvoice This episode is hosted by Brian Fabian Crain and Sébastien Couture. Show notes and listening options: epicenter.tv/000-2

Hi, I'm Brian Fabian Crane and I'm here with Sebastian Guter. We just got back from Amsterdam where we attended Bitcoin 2014 conference, which took place from May 15th to 17th. It was the second conference organized by the Bitcoin Foundation and over 1,000 people gathered for three days of talks and conversations. We had the opportunity to interview many speakers and attendees and talk about their projects and perspectives. We will release those episodes over the coming weeks.

So today, guys, we have a very interesting chat with Adam Cleary, founder of Bullion Bitcoin, and Tamash Bloomer of Bits of Proof, who also developed Bullion Bitcoin. We talked about Bitcoin to gold exchanges and how important it is for exchanges to perform on-chain transactions in this post-Gox era. Then I ran into Frederic Martin and Nicodabaca, two French guys building a portable hardware wallet solution, and who've already developed a USB smart card, which contains your private keys and signs your transactions. I also bumped into a fellow podcaster Patrick Melton of Coinsider This, and we kind of consoled each other after not winning the blockchain awards for most influential podcast. Anyway, congratulations to Let's Stock Bitcoin for winning this award.

You guys deserve it. And finally, Marco Pierboom, CEO of CoinVoose, tells me about his service, which allows merchants and contractors to invoice in Fiat and get paid in Bitcoin and vice versa. So, Adam Cleary from Bullion Bitcoin, a gold to Bitcoin exchange. I'm Thomas Brummer from Bitsa proof. I developed the exchange that Adam operates. It is actually his exchange.

I'm just doing the hard work. He did the hard work. Now he's doing the hard work. Now I'm doing the hard work. Thomas did some great work, building the site. And as I say, it has some fantastic features, which Thomas is able to describe better. but as I say, the big feature is real-time auditability.

So we have what I call allocated Bitcoin. So effectively, you can check your balance against the blockchain at any time, effectively. And you have your own wallet address for your bitcoins in your account that are on the blockchain. And so it's client money segregation and real-time auditsability. But just a question on that. So if I log in, I see my address or my big and so on, I can check out. the blockchain, but there's no way to verify that you, for example, if one thinks of a malicious scenario, would use the same address and show it in different accounts.

Well, you see on that address your transactions. So if you already traded something on the exchange, then you can see that the history of this address is your history and not the history of somebody else. Yeah, okay. Everything is on chain, is that right? Okay. So because this exchange is not like a high-frequency exchange, but it's an exchange that does several fixings a day.

Okay. So every fixing where basically the orders for different customers are crossing, this creates a fixing and creates a single Bitcoin transaction for that fixing that reallocates the customer. See, you do like one single transaction day with loads of inputs and outputs? Well, this is optimized. It depends on. how much it has to do, but that's the principle.

Okay. Now, this seems to have become very important, this thing, client segregation of addresses. Has that been an important shift for you since the Mount Gox? Well, I mean... It's always been a focus. It's always been a focus. When we conceived the exchange, and, you know, I thought about it,

I thought an exchange should have segregation of client money, and this is clearly very important. And then Mount Gox happened at the end of the time when Thomas was developing it. It's actually just going live as man got back. Yes, we went live as man got. Yeah. Actually, a demonstration.

It's a perfect PR move from that. It was really needed. It was something like, it's an unfortunate. So it turns out to be a good bet to... We think so. So what's your business model then? In what sense? I mean, to acquire as many users as possible

and to create a community of people who want to trade Bitcoin to gold and gold to Bitcoin. I mean, the way that I see it is that gold and Bitcoin are brothers in arms. they're complementary. So gold, if you combine gold with Bitcoin, it monetizes gold. It makes the transmission of gold much easier than carrying physical gold around with all the security issues that that has. And at the same time for Bitcoin, it gives Bitcoin a sort of tangible physical portal in the real physical world, if you like. So the marriage of the two is powerful and

optimizes both assets in my view. Bitcoin on its own is fine. but it has, it sort of lacks something, I think, of tangibility, of physicality. Gold on its own is fine, but it lacks the ability to transmit itself easily, globally across borders. So the two together, I think, are very powerful because you get the three features of money really nailed. The store of value, unit of account, medium of exchange. So effectively you can create a parallel monetary system purely around gold and Bitcoin. So I've heard you, I think you ask it somewhere, but the question of, you know, whether Bitcoin is digitally scarce. And I've been thinking about the same thing for a while.

And I feel I kind of share the view that maybe it's not quite as scarce as you really think, because a lot of these currencies are really substitutes. Sure. So has your thinking on that changed since you started? Not really. I mean, I know it's heresy to raise issues like that at a Bitcoin conference, but I'm just saying when I was asking that question, I was just saying, let's not be so convinced that we are right that we don't admit the possibility,

or countenance the possibility, that we may be wrong. And effectively, you know, what I was asking was in the context of a presentation where someone was saying that an asset that has a threat, 5,000 year history is about to be supplanted with an asset which has a five-year history. Well, maybe, but let's just consider the possibility that that might not be correct. And I think, you know, although five years have passed and the technology has become more proven, I think, you know, even Tamash maybe, I don't know, would agree or not agree, but there is a possibility that Bitcoin may not be the ultimate digital currency or may not.

It's a possibility. Maybe only a 10% possibility. Or you may have various simultaneously and then the 21 million doesn't really become that relevant anymore. Exactly. Yes. I would like to point to another interesting feature of this exchange, just not having the theoretical discussions, that the addresses are not only segregated by customer, but they are always on Walter signature addresses.

So that means that the access to these funds are limited to two out of three owners of keys. And there's two key, so one key is owned by the operator, Adam. Another key is owned by a legal entity that is administering the exchange. It's an entire different person, different physical location and so on. and the third key is basically what the customer is controlling with a second factor authentication. So with this combination, we have a security that, again, the exchange on its own cannot just move out of this segregated accounts. So you not only have the visibility of the funds, but you have the guarantee that there is not a single point, a failure that could move this money out, because there's not a single point, a failure, that could move this money out,

because there are at least two different legal entities. It's two out of three multi-stick. So basically a trading, a regular trading is happening. If the fixing is happening, that basically Adam and the administrator signs. So these are the two that match an order. And for example, in a customer redemption case where the customer wants to withdraw money, then a customer signs and the administrator signs. But Adam doesn't need to sign it.

He doesn't need for that. For withdrawals, you don't sign. I don't sign because deliberately I don't want to touch people's money. No, I think that's great. So you sign for the, if I want a trade, obviously giving an order to trade. Exactly. And then you and the administrative sign and withdraw. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Okay. Yes. In a trade situation, we can't allow the customer to block it once they've made an order, a binding order. Because otherwise, if they could do that, they could game us and go backwards on it. But at the same time, we wanted a second pair of the four eyes principle. We wanted a second legal entity to operate and say, hang on, is this fixing reasonable? Is the price right?

Are the allocations between the different receiving and sending parties correct? So as Tamas said, I make the fixing. I say, this is the fixing, strike the fixing. Okay, at this price, fixed, right? Then it's sent, as it were, to the administrator. The administrator looks at it and says, yes, this is reasonable, and he countersides. And those are the two signatures. And again, it means that I can't just move bitcoins around on my own,

which I should not be able to do. No exchange should be able to do that, frankly. I think that's great. I'm really curious. I think this works, right, because you do the fixing. I'm curious, do you think there will be ways to do something similar for exchanges that allow, like, a high volume of training or frequent trading? The multi-signature would be feasible with some additions.

If you also create tools that are so easy to use, like if you use a treasure device or something that is very quick to fix to sign, so if you invest into that. So I think the multi-sig is probably solvable to be much quicker. I don't know how I would sew it for high frequency, but at least it could be quite much, much quicker. Certainly the auditability on the blockchain is something that is a core property of the system. Yeah, that would be straightforward.

We cannot commit instantaneously because it takes time until it commits the blockchain. So we could only commit like aggregations of trades. But it would be still possible, which actually I think exchanges should do. It should be still possible. So at least end of day commit the money to segregated customer funds. It should be possible. It should be. At the end of the day, they should be doing that.

Instead, they're pooling client assets in one big Bitcoin account. I guess it should also be the transaction. costs if you do with a well that's that's a minimal transaction cost but it certainly has a security benefit instead of it I'm quite sure that it feels much more

secure for customers if you can see his money and that the history of that account is his account history so that that implicitly gives a guarantee that the exchange as a whole has the fancy claims because if no customer

is crying then apparently all the money there. So do you think in the future we will have big exchanges that are fiat to Bitcoin that will use a similar architecture? I hope that customers forced them to do something like that. I agree. Yes. And yes, as Thomas said, we would hope that customers would say, you need to do this. It is just not acceptable for you to put everything in one big pool and that we don't know what is in there. Look, basically Magogs and the similar exchanges are operating like the old world. So you have a new digital world with its proofs. That's what my company is called bits of proof,

because I think that's the vision of this whole story, that you have proofs of what you are doing. This is a financial system not built on trust, on proofs. So I think it is just totally, like, necessary. that if you work in this new rearm, you're not requiring trust, but you're providing proofs. Magox is just, or others are asking you to trust, and that's the wrong thing. That's the past. Exactly.

Have you ever considered doing a Fiat as well, I mean, I sort of did consider it. The problem with Fiat is that it requires interacting with the Fiat world. and the Fiat world in the UK has been very reluctant to provide any access to any Bitcoin business and to provide any banking. We think we might be about to solve that problem for, actually for a separate interest for the UK DCA, the local Bitcoin Association in the UK. And if we do, then maybe we could solve it in the future for this sort of thing. But to be frank, the exchange was conceived from a more purest ideological point of view of saying,

you know, we say goodbye to the Fiat world, we leave that world behind, they can continue to operate their world, we want to create a new paradigm. The new paradigm is that, you know, we have a world that effectively, in my opinion, should involve some sort of reserve asset like gold, which has historically been a reserve asset for many thousands of years, and accepting only the last 40, and Bitcoin. And, you know, that this will be a much, in my view, a much better world, a much better monetary system that excludes these systems of promises and claims and debt and the creation of debt and the creation of money out of thin air,

which benefits the people who are able to create this money. And instead we have a system which, frankly, is more rooted in the past of reality and ownership. I could also imagine in the future, I mean, a lot of people would say, you know, Bitcoin's become less volatile in the future. And I think to some extent that's true. But I don't think, I personally don't believe that it's become, going to become very stable at any time the next five years or so. Sure. So I could see also that something like this would become a way if you want to be mainly a Bitcoin business. Yes. Yes.

But you want to hedge some of the volatility. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Absolutely. that was also the idea is that it provides a sort of a reserve that you can go back to without having to go to the Fiat world. And about the volatility, I mean, volatility is just a question of what your denomination is, how you think. So if we were to say let's forget about the dollar and let's do everything in Bitcoin, then we would all think in Bitcoin and it would be irrelevant what the dollar Bitcoin price was doing.

So, you know, it's because we start from the point of view of saying, We think of things in dollars and then we translate. This things are priced. Of course, that's true. Absolutely. So the great battle is to get things priced in an alternative currency. I think you're a very long way from that. Maybe.

Maybe so. Maybe so. But it could be interesting for a company I've blockchained info, for example. Sure. I mean, if they're free of Bitcoin company, they want to hedge some of that currency risks. It's absolutely possible. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we've had some conversations like that.

Okay. Thanks, guys. Great. Thank you. Very much. Thank you. Great. Thanks a lot.

Cheers. Thanks. Okay, so I'm here with... Ferick Martin. Nicola Bakker. And you guys are French? Yes, of course. Horrible accent.

There are more... I've been seeing more and more French people here, so it's very... I mean, compared to the Berlin conference where I was in February, the French are much more present, which is great. French way. I'm very happy to see that the French ecosystem is growing and that, you know, guys are coming. out to the conference.

So tell us about Prismithside. Prismide, yeah. Well, you may already know us from the BT cheap project, which is hardware wallet based on smart card that can be used in USB ports. So this is interesting because essentially this is just like a credit card size card and there's a little insert and basically a USB key. built right into the card. And you flip it over, it clips, and you've got a USB key, which is going to sign your

transactions. Yes. And the main goal was already to protect your private key. So you can generate the private key directly inside the smart card. And after that, you can only ask the small card to sign the transaction. That means that private keys never leave the smart card. And you don't have to worry about the security of your private key. They can't be stolen, they can't be act anymore.

And this is the first great step to we offer the security smart card expense. What seems very interesting about this product is, I mean, it must be very cheap to produce. Yes. Yeah. The price can be about 10 euros each card. So it's a rather cheap solution, but really strong security. And so how does it work exactly? You use the card to generate a seed?

I mean, because if you lose the card, you're... Of course, because the private key is securely stored. But even you with the smart card, pincode, can't extract the private key. So what about the backup, of course, if you can lose or break your smart card? We are using HD wallet. That means the first time you are using the platform, you'll be presented a seed, an initial seed. You can backup on paper or whatever you want.

And from that seed, if you lose your smart cards, you can recreate the tree of all this private key. And so what if I don't trust the seed generation on that card? Can I bring my own seed? Yes, you can import your own seed. If you don't have confidence on the random name, number generator of the smart card, you can import your own seed.

Okay. And what wallets does this work with right now? The first one, so we were discussing right now about the hardware wallet or the big chip project. So you can use it with a modified crypto kit wallet system. It's a phone web browser plugin you can use. So if you go to hardware wallet.com, you'll be able to do that, to do that with some. of BT-chip card. But right now on this exhibition,

we're presenting the Prismide project. Yeah, which is this contraption right here. There are two things in the Prismicide project. The first is about the new smart card that will have fully open source operating systems. This is a world first, because usually you just have to trust the security of the smart card.

you don't have access to the code, source code of the property system. So soon we'll release the code for that system. And then we were thinking about the second major problem, the client side of the Bitcoin architecture. Okay, you can have a secure storage for your private key, but you can be lied about the transaction. In fact, we are all using insecure environments as a software

clients. Right here we're using the conference Wi-Fi. Who knows if somebody's trying to like man in the middle attack all these transactions

are doing right here in the conference. The software can tell you okay all for Bitcoin for my friend, okay, but behind your back a malware

can forge another transaction and you are saying okay for the wrong transaction. So that's why on the Prismissai project there is an hardware side. This is a portable small card reader with a touchscreen on it. So you can use the new smart card inside that portable reader. It communicates through Bluetooth with smartphones and

tablets and through USB for desktop and wallstations. Then when you are doing your transaction, first you have to enter your pin code on the touchscreen. first security and the second security feature said that the small smart cat reader will remind you what are the ongoing real transaction details so if your desktops lie about the transaction the smart card leader won't lie and say what are the real transaction before getting your approval you won't approve by mistake another wrong transaction and so this is a prototype right here. This is a this is a raspberry pie

that's got a touch screen on it it's in the nice case. So this seems pretty bulky. You're building something much smaller than this way. So yes, you're right. It's a kind of bulky prototype. It's based on the raspberry pie. So of course it's

too big. But our goal is to provide a portable smaller one. People can always have on their pocket. So of course it's an hardware challenge for us and we are going to crowd fund this project on indigo crowdfunding website and so when is that crowdfunding camping coming up when is that crowdfunding campaign coming

probably not next week the week after so end of this month okay so there's going to be an indigo campaign to crowd fund the the portable reader. The portable reader. Cool. And is there anything you want to add, Nicholas? Is there anything you want to add? Oh yeah, yeah.

Just that the campaign basically will be for the funding and the portable reader and the card as well. So people will be able to get both and we'll keep you updated, of course, with progress on the source code and progress of probably demonstration prototypes using different form factors in between, I mean, when the company is launched

and when the products are, delivered so estimately by the end of the year. Awesome. And so where can we find all this online? What's your website? Prismaside.com.

Prismside.com and also BTchip.com? Btchip.com for the already available smart card with USB form factor. Cool. Thanks, guys. So I'm here with Patrick Melton.

And from Poinciller, the old podcaster. Yeah. We just met up outside the passenger terminal. as I was coming back to get some batteries for our recorder. Here on a beautiful, sunny Amsterdam day. Yeah, we're pretty lucky for weather because it's been shit here for the last couple weeks. I've been here during the winter before.

This is nice. This is much nicer out here. Cool. So how you enjoyed the conference? Great, so far. A lot of people here, and it's good to meet a lot of people that you've talked to before over email and talk to, you know, Skype and stuff, and never met face-to-face. Yeah, yeah.

No, I'm fighting, like, I was at the Berlin conference in February. I don't know if you were there. Berlin? No, I was. There's a lot of people here. Yeah? It's a much bigger conference. Like, this is my second Bitcoin conference.

Yeah. And, yeah, this is definitely not the biggest one I'd been to, but. Really? I suppose there's some huge ones in the U.S. also. And there's, I guess they're doing this Bitcoin in the Beltway one. And in June, it's going to be really big, I think. So just because it's in Washington, D.C., a lot of regulators are going to be sending delegates. So what are your thoughts on this conference?

It's been pretty fun so far. I've gone to a lot of the inside Bitcoin conferences, and while I do like those, they do have a different flare to them. And they also tend to be the same. A lot of the speakers are the same. They're giving the same exact talks and kind of just clones of each other. So if you've gone to one, you've kind of gone to all of them, maybe go to one a year, and you'll get some new information. but I think, you know, they're cranking out one every 45 days. Yeah, yeah. And are you coming to any of the other European conferences this year? I'd love to go. There's so many.

Yeah, I mean, there's so many, and it's so expensive to get over here. I think it costs me three and a half bitcoins for my flight over here, which is painful to spend, but there's no other way to do it, I guess. I don't know if I'll get to another European one this year, but I'd love to do an Asian one. I'd love to go kind of the other side. That'd be cool, too. Yeah, because you're in Los Angeles. It would be maybe easier for you to get the Asia.

Yeah, I mean, this is about, what is this about, about halfway around the world from where I'm at. And so, we were both nominated for the blockchain awards. When you have to bring up old things? I think we both knew that Let's Talk Bitcoin was going to win it. Yeah, I was, I actually, there's a video up if you check our YouTube channel not to plug our stuff, but no one else is filming around here like entire sessions, it seems like. so but I put up a video of the entire blockchain award so you can go check out our loss but at least we're up there for a baby to see and the nomination and yeah I mean it's cool I think everybody

knew let's talk Bitcoin was going to win they've been around the longest they definitely have the largest presence and uh but they weren't even here to get the award it's very it's very strange to not be here Adam where are you at yeah Adam should have been here show yourself and Andreas where you at and Stephanie also and Andreas probably isn't here just because of a protest at the Big Point Foundation, I'm not sure. Yeah, we interviewed John about that. That's not a bit. Yeah.

Open. This will clear. But now it's been great. Everybody's super, you know, the great thing about these things is everybody's friendly. Even competitors get along with each other. Everything is just interested in projects and everybody learns from everybody. I'm finding, like, that one's finding there's a huge media presence. Like, in Berlin, you could just kind of just grab anyone to say.

say, hey, you want to do an interview? And this time, it's like, oh, it's like business, right? Like, sorry, I got to do this other thing with, like, the Sun-Times, and I've got to do this other thing with, like, five minutes and an hour. There's a lot of sponsor and speaker cruises and dinners and functions that don't involve us lowly pressed for. Podcasts. But, no, it's been really fun and cool, and I definitely suggest anybody who's interested in Bitcoin

come out to a conference and definitely download some podcasts. I think that's a great. I think podcasts are a pretty cool way to learn about the stuff. I know when I first got into Bitcoin. My buddy's sitting here with us being silent is one of the guys who kind of got me into Bitcoin. And podcasts are a great way, I think, to just dive in and kind of learn everything from a zero level up. Absolutely. I agree.

But yeah, it was great meeting you, man. Yeah. Thanks for doing this. Had a fun conference. We're shaking, just in case you're listening to this. We're shaking. It's official. All right, so I'm here with Marco Perrabo.

And you're with Coin Voice. So can you talk to us about that? We can. So Coin Voice is a payment processor, and what we do is we process payments, and it goes in both directions. So it's bidirectional, so you can invoice a customer in U.S. dollars and get paid in Bitcoin, or you can invoice your customers in Bitcoin and get paid in dollars. And that opens up a whole slew of possibilities. And as far as I know at this point, we are still the only ones.

who go both directions to enable this type of functionality. Awesome. And when did you launch? We launched in September of 2013, but the software started getting written in about, I'm going to say about in May of 2013, or around that time, really. Okay.

And so I'm curious, like, what's your customer base like? What's your typical customer if there is one? Well, there really is dots. the services, we actually branded it towards professional services mostly, but it turns out that that is a good group of customers, but we have them actually all over the place. So the professional services include lawyers, doctors, journalists. We have them pretty widely there.

And the reason why they like it is they can get to accumulate Bitcoin without having to deal with borders. It's one of the important things. So if I may, I can do an example of one of our customers. customers. He is a German journalist and he writes for an American publication. So he writes his articles and then once a month he generates an invoice on our website. And so basically he sends off the invoice and is denominated the US dollars. And then once the money hits our account, we pay him out in Bitcoin at the appropriate price of that moment. So he basically

gets to transact with the American company without owning an U.S. bank account, which is, you know, a powerful thing. Now, it strikes to me that this would be interesting also for Bitcoin-only companies that want to work with clients that don't want to pay them in Bitcoin, right? And that is actually several of our customers are hardcore Bitcoin guys, and they only do Bitcoin. They call themselves natively Bitcoin. And yes, we actually have several of those. And what they do is they invoice customers, in US dollars, but they get paid in Bitcoin. And the customers don't know that they're being invoiced in Bitcoin. It's just a simple transaction, and they get their bitcoins the way they want it. So they get to accumulate without having to deal with exchanges and the other things come with that.

Now, what are the fees associated to using coin invoice? Well, that depends on what direction you're going. So if you go from PTC to USD, currently we're assessing a fee of 1% on that one. If you go from USD to BTC, which is where we're taking a slightly higher risk. Currently, we're taking 4% on that. Still much lower than your average credit card or PayPal. And those fees are negotiable based on volume and entrust. And so do you only deal with US dollars right now, or can we also invoice in euros?

The euros are coming pretty quickly at this point. That is one of the things that we've been working on, and we are working on additional currencies that we want to start accepting. We're trying to get into the South America. There's one of the places where I think there's a lot of interesting opportunity. But yes, to answer the question, at this moment, it's BTC and USA. But that wouldn't stop a European business, for instance, using your service and just billing in U.S. dollars, right? I mean, the client is paying with a credit card, right?

Right. And actually to come back to what you said earlier, what's the majority of your customers, right? So the majority of our customers are actually foreigners who want to do business in the United States. And we're kind of shut out before that because it was just too expensive fee-wise. And now they get to play for much lower fees. And you know what? Again, there's no – these folks don't – the target companies are not seeing who's getting billed and what is getting built. They just pay dollars to a bank account and they're all good. And as your company continues to grow, where are some of the new innovative services

that you tend to offer coin voice customers? Well, what we are heading to right now is we are working on a POS system so that people can actually do higher frequency, lower latency payments, if you will. So the farmer's market guy selling a bunch of carrots, right? He needs to be able to take payment right in and there and not wait for seven,

or six confirmations. So that's the market that we are soon expanding to. So the two big things that are coming up. Three big things, actually. Let me go buy them. So his POS is happening soon, and that's going to enable the more merchant side of... So that'll be an app?

Or actual hardware? No, it's going to be an app. So initially, HTML5-based. So it's going to be web-based, and then we're going to start actually doing actual apps. So then we're going to do accounting software. So that's another portion that people want. So we're going to add CSV-Export so you can import it in QuickBooks and other pieces of software.

Okay. So the third thing I was talking about is the multi-currency thing that we can go do. So we're working on being able to go from USC to BTC, but then we're going to be able to start doing Euro to BTC and BTC to Euron and those kinds of things. We're going to add additional currencies there. And altcoins also? Or are you sticking to Bitcoin? Altcoins is an interesting. problem for us. I can rant about it for a while. But basically what it comes down to

this is we wrote our own Bitcoin clients and we are bug-for-bug compatible. That's the current one. And that was a pretty large investment on our end. But we really like it. It adds functionality that the Bitcoin client doesn't have and that we really do want. So if we are going to do alt coins, it means that we are going to have to modify our software to be able to get into that. Not ruling it out, it's just at this moment we just not have made the investment. Awesome. Anything else want to add?

Well, come check us out. Have a look at our website. Come see if this is the right business solution for you, and I hope to be able to serve you. So you're at coinvoice.com? We are at coinvoice.com. The mother company is actually called conformal.com. And we do a bunch of open source portions of the Bitcoin community. And we welcome people to come and use and look at our software.

That's freely available out there. Cool. Thanks a lot. Thank you. So we hope you enjoyed this episode about the Bitcoin 2014 conference. If you liked our coverage, please consider tipping us at epicenterbitcoin.com slash tips. You can also subscribe to a weekly newsletter at Epiccentabitcoin.com slash newsletter. And tune in next week for more interviews and coverage of Bitcoin 2014.