Epicenter - Learn about Crypto, Blockchain, Ethereum, Bitcoin and Distributed Technologies - Anish Mohammed: Panther Protocol – Zero-Knowledge Compliant Privacy in DeFi

Episode Date: March 2, 2024

Blockchains are, by default, public ledgers containing every transaction recorded by the network. While this ensures transparency, it also violates users’ privacy once an address is linked to an entity. Apart from creating additional risk for self-custody, institutions are also limited by what they can publicly share on a blockchain. As a result, there is great demand and utility for on-chain, compliant privacy, which still requires KYC (& KYT), but protects them through cryptographic constructs. Zero knowledge proofs attest computational integrity, allowing for transactions to be bundled together and their correctness verified, without revealing each individual interaction.We were joined by Anish Mohammed, co-founder & CTO of Panther Protocol, to discuss the importance of compliant privacy for on-chain transactions, powered by zero knowledge technology.Topics covered in this episode:Anish’s backgroundPanther’s value propositionUX & on-chain privacyPanther’s multi-asset shielded pool architectureKYC & KYTShielded zones and transactionsZone administratorAddress mappingRoadmap & Panther mainnetTarget audience & adoptionFee model & tokenomicsEpisode links:Anish Mohammed on TwitterPanther Protocol on TwitterSponsors:Gnosis: Gnosis builds decentralized infrastructure for the Ethereum ecosystem, since 2015. This year marks the launch of Gnosis Pay— the world's first Decentralized Payment Network. Get started today at - gnosis.ioChorus One: Chorus One is one of the largest node operators worldwide, supporting more than 100,000 delegators, across 45 networks. The recently launched OPUS allows staking up to 8,000 ETH in a single transaction. Enjoy the highest yields and institutional grade security at - chorus.oneThis episode is hosted by Meher Roy. Show notes and listening options: epicenter.tv/537

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Startsaking today at coros.1. Hello, everyone. I am Meher Roy and today I am catching up with Anish Muhammad who is the co-founder and CTO and maybe even the lead researcher of Panther Protocol. Panther Protocol is one of the main projects that is operating in the pre-Fi space which is extending the notions of privacy that we have in the blockchain area. You have a lot of projects in cryptocurrency where the idea is that a user should be able to transact on a blockchain system. They have full privacy as if they know only they should be able to know what they did, which makes regulatory compliance hard. And Panther Protocol is taking the approach that yes, full privacy is valuable,

but also there are many use cases where regulatory compliance has to be factored in the privacy equation right from the start and they're building a project where various kinds of disclosures, various kinds of KYC processes, etc. can be put into DFI workflows. So this is a protocol in development and we'll cover the various objectives and where they are in their life cycle. Hi, Anish. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me.

So Anish, we have met, I think, the last time in 2015. So you've been involved in the crypto space for a long, long while. And so tell us your journey of how you got into crypto in the first place. Oh, you mean cryptography or crypto-cryptum? Yeah, crypto, crypto, crypto, like the meaning that we stole from cryptography. Okay, so full disclosure. I've read of mine, the two part story. One part story is how I got into the cryptography mailing list.

The other part story is professionally how I got into payment system. So my first degree is in medicine. After I did my medicine degree in India, I was offered a job by Erikson. in Sweden, they had a micro-payment system called Jalda, as they call it. And my task was to write a wrapper for Opponers-S-Sel, so we could actually mean, I did review and did some work on wrapping it up. So for me, payment systems were something in my head, like, you know, big problem, offline, double-spit, right?

And the second part of the thread is, I don't know, you're from India, so you probably heard about a silk list. A friend of mine got Uday, Uday Shankar, he runs this list. and he had John Barry, the guy who runs the photography mailing list on the list, and he kind of got me into the list. So, you know, two things happened where,

A, I had this previous exposure and, you know, having gone to grad school to do cryptography and all those things, and being exposed to double spend problem, you're on a cryptography mailing list, and you see this and go, wow, interesting. And I shall put my head up and say, wow, interesting, that's very tended.

I read the thing, and then, like, in 2010, in 1311, I think me and Amirthaki among a bunch of people had a workshop in our hackerspace in London and we were explaining to people how to do mining. And for the rest of it, like in 2013, I became an advisor to Ruppel, and they asked me if I was addressed it. And when Ethereum happened, again, the same thing in London. Victor Tron actually met me. He asked me if I would help.

And then, you know, Ethereum Swam, I was one of the reviewers of the Oran's paper. spend a bit of time with the team. Yeah, the story goes on. Like, you know, I've been involved in desired, desire, design, review of Harvard and some layer ones, probably, you know, 1820 taps, ZK for a last seven, eight years now. And do we remember it correctly that you also worked for UBS or no, Lloyd's,

on Lloyd's back? Yeah, Lloyd's and HSBC. Yeah, I was a retail banker. I was my day job. This is all things. I did for fun, right? It's like I had, well, I don't know what we met for, I thought robotics. So I haven't been involved in a whole bunch of things. Cloud, big data, opens those robotics, which is drones and crypto, crypto, crypto, so I ran a bunch of meetups everywhere. I don't know

what is the research, how we met. I still don't recollect, but, you know, all this thing, anything I get interested, I try, put in my effort and, you know, this are all my spare time activities. In the last few years, you were building Panther Protocol. which has a really interesting approach to privacy and compliance for DFI. Why did you start building this project? What were your initial thoughts? I will give you, with me, is always a story. So I've spent on, but spare time interested in philosophy.

So my co-author, his name is Shaq Mohan. We wrote a paper like 2011. Just looking at the title of the paper, there's a new secret. It kind of describes information arbitrage and structures in power. So if you were to think about anything, you know, if you have an information arbitrage ever, well, I typically give the example of when society was primitive, there was a language existing, and one smart man, woman, whatever, being able to count the number of moon days, you know, how they could be the representative of a moon on Earth. Like count till 28, 29th day, not happening,

go to the mount so that everybody hears. Oh, moon god, don't appear today, right? There you go. Next day, oh, moon god, come back. Now that the person has said, moon god not to come, everybody wants light, that they do hunting in the night.

So they have an alpha in having the moon be predictable. So there you go. This is an information I would try the instructor with power. And when crypto came about, I was like, look, and that is going to be a real inversion happening. And I've been involved, as I was describing, like, all the big data things and all those things.

It's like all the way from cloud to big data. I've been involved very heavily. So for me, I could actually see what is going to come. Effectively, you know, once the data is all in public, the thing with, you know, blockchains is like a bizarre thing, right? So all the states is visible. All the smart contacts are visible. All the vulnerabilities are visible. And everything is visible.

So if you had to apply an ML and do something, both in terms of attacking and recognizing things, which is a bit of a challenge, right? If you were to look at the traditional, and as you were pointing out, like, you know, I've been a retail banker as well. So I've understood finance quite well. So I've worked in my compayments, reinsurance and, you know, finance and the larger sense. So for me, and I did some work for hedge funds and things like that. So for me, I understand trade, you know, trade, quite well, and retail finance and bank.

well. And I understand the construct of, you know, KYC, KYC, KYT, and the value KYC, KYT has, right? It's like, you know, it could be a limiting factor for anybody. But yeah, what do you describe as a regulatory arbitrage? If you have two countries, one has a different KYC regime, another one has a KYC regime. There's a regulatory arbitrage there. So I understood all of this. And I looked at it and I went, you know what, we have an opportunity to actually, you know, This is like a two-part story. What part story is like looking into this future and thinking, crypto is not going to be the crypto that we see as a tiny bit.

It has to go to the space where it's a fraction of the trade-fi space, right? Because trade-fi is orders of magnitude bigger and crypto is tiny. And for trade-fi to enter or crypto to enter trade-fi, we need to have this mechanism where there is equivalence, equivalence in terms of regulation, equivalence in terms of understanding, in terms of moving between the two. And, you know, for me and like in my co-founder, when we had the chat, for us, it was like this, this is the obvious thing, which is like, okay, you have to build,

you know, a mechanism by which we could actually have mechanisms that exist in trade five, like tack pools, right? And mechanisms that exist in a trade five, which is KY, C, KY, KYT, build them two together and make it available for D-Fy. So this is like the journey of PATH. Right. In my own experience, you could think of kind of the conversation around privacy as existing on a spectrum. So on the one side you have like Bitcoin and Ethereum where all your balances are public, all your smart contract interactions are public. And the day I share my address with the tax authority in one country is the day. they are able to follow me through life. And it's obviously non-ideal.

I mean, even at an individual level, but if I were to think of at like a corporate level, it's definitely non-ideal. Massive problem. Yeah. Your alpha is, you know, like, yeah, the problem I would describe there as something like this. Like you and I, for us, our, you know,

the half-life of data for us is much lesser. half life for data for enterprises are much bigger. And also the thing is the leverage they have is bigger, right? They could actually do transactions which are orders of magnitude, four, five, six orders of magnitude bigger than us, right? So for them, their strategy has much higher value. For you and me, our strategy because of multiple reasons, right? The strategy doesn't really have that much of value.

For them, it's very high value. So this is the thing that actually happens. So the best example I give is Renaissance technology. right. Nobody really tells anybody like how they do it, but they have north of 30 or 40% return investment, even when the market is going down non-correlated gains, right? And how is that possible? That is possible because their strategy is all private. And how is that possible in the attorney of finance? And why isn't that it's available for us? Given our volatility, we should have a lot more returns, right? If you were able to have institutions that can actually have both.

Do I mean that's the future of, you know, I would say crypto the way I see it. I mean like, you know, compliant crypto. Right. And on the other side, you have this other part of crypto where it's the Zcash, the Monero, the tornado cash, all of these systems on with dark wallet, Amitaki is probably the perfect example of it where you have a generation of technologists that are building privacy systems on crypto where the end objective is that. When I as an individual transact on crypto, nobody should be able to know what I have done on a crypto system.

And when I've used those crypto systems, my central challenge ends up becoming that at the end of the year, I have to make a tax statement. How do I even explain to the tax authority? This is a particular shielded pool that I use. That's the input. that's the output and like, I am fine as a user. I'm not doing something illegal. I'm just using a shielded pool because I want to unlink the two

and how do I even provide the trace of it to an authority? And I am sure that the problem is bigger for a company. And so when you look, when you study kind of like this vision for dark wallet or dark phi or all these systems, you realize it's a vision, right? Like, there is value in it, but I can't actually utilize these tools

because for me, in the end, I have to provide a trace of what I did to a tax authority at the end of the year. Yeah, you are in the U.S. You have IRS. IRS has global visibility of everything, and this actually makes it difficult for a bunch of us. So, I mean, Amir, as I was saying, like, I've known Amir now, I don't know, 14, 13, 14 years now.

I told you, he can go on HackerSpace website or some places. You can see pictures of me and him. I believe there was a couple of other people there in Hacker Space. And I last saw him in Morda Necro, right? And he invited me to his place. I haven't been there. But I really like him. I like his idealities.

And he's a very enthusiastic and meticulous. and who tries to learn everything. When you meet him, you'll have a bunch of papers printed out in his ad, right? So, you know, credit is where credit is due. He definitely is pushing the envelope. As you rightly pointed out, the challenge is exactly what he pointed out, right? So if there is ever a tainted wallet in the mix, you have a bigger problem. And the problem is the way the law sees this.

Not problem is the way that how we can implement it, right? So we need to think this in a way that we, you know, it's harder to provide exclusion proves, right? This is the challenge, right? So we have to actually then filter things in. So when people come in, we need to be able to say that, okay, you know what? We won't allow these set of people that, well, Fagak actually made a list of. So we will have to use a third party, which is outside, who does services to everybody else. So, you know, same set of services we can actually consume that traditional trade.

investment, banking, finance, actually uses, right? They could do the K by C. And they could do almost the same KYT as well. And then the thing is when you would reveal these things, you can actually reveal it in different ways. So our initial simple reveal mechanism is like a covet reveal mechanism where you as a user can actually reveal me. But I should probably say this to you.

One of the things that everybody should recognize when you do reveal is that you are reducing the privacy set, right? imagine there's a pool in which like that 10 participants, right? We'll say 100 participants. And like 50 of them out of the US, then IRS would definitely get 50 transcripts, right? They have one in half. You know, they have a very good chance

to know exactly what's happening everywhere. So that is something that everybody needs to understand. And in one sense, that is probably not the reason why they're using it, right? So they're using it to actually, you know, guard the alpha. and if IRS recognizes the strategy they are flying, the assumption here is legal, they can look at it, okay, this is a tax, go, that's fine. That's the way we should be thinking about. Not other way, like, you know, I don't want anybody to see the transaction.

The thing is like the transaction is, the privacy is bounded. When you walk in, you get privacy shield for while you're doing this thing. When you walk out, you lose it, and at that point in time, you have to reveal all those things. Now, you have the transcripts on both ends, and there are a bunch of other things that are correlating. So when you, you know, when you as MAA, we're to go back to IRS and say, I deploy it. So let's think of an example. You're using FAPTA, you know, let me walk you through how you come into FANTH and you're using UNISWAP adapter and you're deploying some capital in UNICEFB3 as a liquidity provider

and how you're going to submit it to IRS. So when you as Meha comes in, we are currently using a third-party service provider called Q-T-I-F-I, called Q-Tify, P-U-R-I-F-I. And what they do is they would do all the normal things, which is like, you know, they have the whole capacity to do everything. Right now we are just doing minimal things because we restricted the total amount of money

you could actually transact in the protocol in V-1. Because like, you know, it's a test. Everything is being tested out, so we kind of, you know, running things at a minimal level. So once you've actually been going through their K-by-C process, you know, they would do a EC-DSA signature on the thing. We have a kind of an interface that's been agreed between us, Panther, one site, and our KYC provider. We can have multiple KYC providers, but at this moment in time, we have one, and we have this interface built.

We're using a Jab, a Baby Jab, and we have a signature that comes in. Once you have the signature, then we would actually have the first set of circuits that actually map you from your KYC valid to a new set of addresses in that sense. That is your new address from which you're going to use your access to do transactions. Okay. And now you go into Maljester Sheelip pool and there's an adapter to Uniswap, right? So Panther, Uniswap. So in Uniswap, you deployed some liquidity. But where everybody looks at it, it looks like Panther is actually doing it, right? So there could be like, you know, 10,000, thousand, 10,000, whatever that number of users, right? So it's an aggregate of everything you see on outside world. Outside world sees data interaction. So you deployed liquidity in Uniswap v3.

Like, I can't remember optimism, whether that airdrop was, and somebody made like three, four mil. So imagine that's the case. Like, you know, nobody would actually be able to point at you and say, hey, Meha did this. No. It'll be like, somebody using, you know, whatever. And IRA knows for sure. When you submit, IRLs would say, ah, yes. How did Meha get two million?

Meha actually provided this. From this point to this point, these are a set of transactions. And all of that is clear. Mejahra isn't the good. Mejah keeps his money. Mahal keeps his sanity. Mejahra's good. Uniswap is good.

Panther is good. That's how we think we should go forward. That's really cool. It's like the, it's like straddling the center that is almost absent in crypto. It's like not fully public, but they're not fully trying to build

that dark, dark fire. Right? It's like, Panther is ultimately straddling that center. center and it's one of the few projects that is straddling that center and getting into commerce, which is the interesting part of it. And of course, like, the complexity is in the technology that makes it happen. So we'll kind of get into that. So you gave this example of a uniswap pool where maybe in the beginning I'm imagining

I have something like an Ethereum address. Maybe it's on a different chain. Yeah. I mean, Panther is pretty much on EVN compatible. We have deployed on Polycon. So we are going to deploy in Flare as well. We might deploy another EVN compatible chains. So let's assume an EVM compatible chain

and an EVM compatible address. And there exists UNISUP. let's assume those things and then let's get out. Okay, so it's like, I can imagine Panther as kind of a smart contract, multi-asset pool that can that can be deployed on any of these EVM chains, right? Yes, there are some caveats to it, but, you know, it's like support for the curves, you know, effectively it's growth 16 and VL25PO. So it's like, you know, the support for library, support for tooling,

That's kind of things that are, because it's you and because it's me, I want to be very fair, you know, and any of the audience that's listening to, I don't want to have way people and make them into thinking. He said this, that's not the case. Yes, there are some nuances to this when you use ZK, ZK, ZK, and he needs to be supported, you know, it has to be fast and cheap, so we can actually. Like, there is no point in providing privacy for things where it doesn't really add value. Like, the key thing is, like, if you were to go to McDonald's, anywhere to buy a burger, you might get a smoothie. It's unlikely you will ever go to McDonald's just for the smoothie.

Very rare. But, yeah, that's the assumption here. Right. So then I start off with a normal polygon address. Maybe this is even one that I had given to the tax authorities in the past. And then the first thing is I somehow interact with the panther system on polygon. And I ended up... Okay, so let me walk you through.

Yeah, let me walk you through. So you come in, if you want to go to Panther, as I was describing, you're going to go to Purify. Purify will do the verification. And now you have a derived address. From your face-to-trust, you have a derived address. So you have a derived polygon address. The map between the two or the link between the two is only visible to you in that sense. Okay.

And now you have, with this address, you're going to... Only visible to me, not even to purify my K-YC provider? It is visible to purify in a sense like purify, actually has the transcripts, right? So if they decrypt and then, like, what they have there is literally the transcripts of all the transactions, right? So this map, this bit of the transcript is not fully visible to them. Whatever you do with them, they have the transcripts and that's visible to you, you and

them, right? Now, if everything is put together, everything will be visible, right? So on their own, they can't actually, you know, they can only do the first part of it. which is like they can say, these are the transcripts, this is what does happen. And they also have the KYT, right? You know, if they reveal the KYT plus the KYC, there's not, they can actually reveal.

But still, you know, you have to, you know, reveal some of the bits to actually give the fuller picture. So this is where the Ayara's question when you are mentioning really makes sense. You know, you actually want to describe your transcripts to them. So it's like a commit reveal mechanism. You have already committed to all those things that need to do the reveal.

They have the whole transcript. And as I was describing, it has some implications of doing that. It is like if you and I were the two parties in the transaction and you reveal a mine, then they also know mine as well, right? So yeah, so this is the thing. So now your new address, the derived address will be in the multi-aceted pool, right? And in the multi-associated pool, what you have is that you take so representing assets, right? And then, you know, normal things like the normal Bitcoin mechanism, right?

you know the thing new proof is that this hasn't been seen before and then you can actually use this to do swaps and trades of that sort right so we have two mechanisms in panther is like a z trade which is like a one-to-one map okay so sometimes i confuse the tube so forgive me if i do i've been in this for four years so i occasionally confuse tree for the woods so if i use the wrong words for the wrong things don't shoot me it's just that my head is so muddled in my head there are so many things and things cross-wire seven and over and then. So in a meta level, there's this possibility that you and I, which is Anish and Meher, we could actually swap two assets, assuming we know, you know, we are happy with the KYC,

we have all this. Okay, so there's this construct I need to describe. The construct is like in Panther, there's this construct called a zone manager. A zone manager actually looks after a zone. A zone is a place where your KYC is valid, right? And the zone manager kind of has to agree to the KYC provider. okay, this is a K-bisc requirement I have. You do the K-by-C,

and if this is valid, I will allow this part to get into the zone, right? And what happens is then between you and me, or we somehow figured out like we want to do a swap. We can do a swap. We can do a private swap, right? So, you know, both of us can actually swap things and nobody will be able to figure out what we actually flap. But if you go and then provide IRS's transcript,

IRIS knows for sure what is done, right? So in that sense, you have the compliance, you have the transcript, you can actually prove that you actually did a legitimate transaction, which is like a swap between asset A to asset B. So this is one way. And when this is extended using an adapter. So the adapter is like a think of it like a bridgy mechanism, right? One side of the bridge sits on path of protocol. So there's a multi-sacisture pool. And so all the assets are represented in there.

And then the adapter then does this back. puts into, say, a normal defyp product, right? And when the normal defyp protocol looks, it's interacting with the smart contract. And the back end of the Spark contract is the assets in the pool. And for the Unisrap, what it looks like is, OK, this is the address from which this transaction is happening.

And this transaction is within the multi-associated pool. Does that make sense? So the imagination I get is imagine like the entire polygon ecosystem, maybe imagine it as a lot. large city first, right? So imagine it as like San Francisco. It's a large city and there are different neighborhoods in there. And I, okay, one of those neighborhoods is like kind of like the panther multi-assic

shielded pool in there. And then this panther multi-acid shielded pool is like further divided into smaller school areas, let's say like. And then you're calling these things. the smaller things zones. So this polygon is the city. Oh, no, no, no, no. Okay, so the zone is like top post, right?

You can actually think up a school district as a zone, right? And you have like a smaller subunits as like a smaller mass. You can have multiple maps here, right? And like you can actually have like, I mean, in theory you can have one mass but you can have as many mass as you want, right? But the question here is like, you know, how big a mass need to be? So it can provide the ineffective, effective privacy set. So there's a trade-off between, I would say, three-way trade-off.

What is meant by a MASP? Multi-Assad Shielded Pool. Multi-Asset Shielded Pool. So it's like if Polygon is kind of like San Francisco as a whole, and then it's like, it's like Panther is kind of like a big area of San Francisco. Yes, yes, yes, a dark area of San Francisco. Dark area of San Francisco.

There are like multiple school districts in that dark area. And it's not the case that those multiple school districts are all equivalent, right? So because I have to choose what kind of school district I will use, what kind of multi-ass shielded pool I will use. And the better pool is the one that many other users are using, because like my anonymity set is kind of the set of users using that school district or that MAP in that case. So the essence of it is kind of I have an address in like San Francisco, the city in the beginning. And then like you have these school districts, these masks.

You have a peer box kind of a map which you get a new peer box addressed into the school district. That will allow you to participate in that school district. that school district. And the overall, the top person, what I call the zone manager, which could be the school district who, that is, sets the rules for the games and the thing, which is like K. YC has to be this. You need to meet this and this and this. Then you are allowed to participate within that.

And if you are in there, you can have adapters. So if the school district has, you know, what do I call relationships with other school districts in other places, you are allowed to, meaning, I'm just describing a D5 protocol as a school district, right? So you could actually do that and you can interact with them. Right. So it's like that school district or that multi-asset shielded pool has some kind of administrator that's able to... A top-level administrator. A top-level administrator. That is able to set rules for that shielded pool. And that rule can include that if anyone wants an address to be generated in this pool, then they have to pass KYC a

across these four or five, either one of these four or five providers, and they could be multiple. Very minimum one, right? Like, very minimum one. They can have as many as they want, but, you know, constraints or grading circuits and things like that set aside. I mean, you're absolutely right. So, so then I choose kind of like a, I did a district or a mass and I look at, okay, they accept KICs from like these five providers. Currently, there's only one. But that's because the protocol is young. And then I send this KYC information to this provider and then this provider.

That's a separate transaction. And like Panther or in the class of all Panther Protocol shouldn't actually care about this. And just that we, there are no real, where three service providers that could provide, you know, independently provide you with a KYC. The challenge is two-part, not just technology, but the regulation, right?

Because of the GDPR and other things, the data ownership is a bit of a problem. So you actually need to get the user to go to the service provider and that KIOC, right? And this is one of the challenges we have. We can't actually have the whole thing in general here. Like we can't run. In a normal world, if you've got a bank, you just get, you know, somebody like on a phytode to actually provide you with the service. You wrap all those things.

You do all these things in one house, right? We have the normal GDPR thing. But because we have a D5 protocol which is decentralized and we have to do all of this, we can't do things in a normal way. This is like doing things in somewhat awkward way so we can meet all. It's dancing around to making sure that it's like the kids play the game where they hop around. So the same thing, we have to hope around to make sure that we meet all the requirements that all the regulators have. So I submitted my KYC and presumably the KYC provider is providing me some kind of certificate.

It gives you a signature. It's just an ECDSS signature on a lip. Yeah, I mean, you gets a signature back saying it's valid, right? That's literally what it is. This account passed KYC with me. That's all. None of the information is revealed. Like, okay, the information lies with the KYC.

provider in their servers or in their cloud? So the transcript of that thing is in the easiest way of describing, it's like encrypted with their public key and, you know, it's there. So at any point in time, so for example, IRS really gets interested, you go, that's the KYC provider, have a word with them. You know, they can provide you with all the details. Well, you know, the rest of the mechanism is normal. Like, you know, if you think about the normal bank, you know,

typically once the end user's name and everything is available, you know, the regulatory authority will go directly to URI or who are the end user is, because they can send a subpoena to the user, right? And they can send it to both places, but the user is the easiest. Let's send it to them. We don't have big lawyers. Banks will have big lawyers. So they typically don't go after the banks.

They go after the people that's easier to, you know, you know what I'm saying. So then this mass administrator, essentially they have set up the rules. We shouldn't call them the mass administrator, right? Like a protocol zone administrator. Because like there could be multiple. So you know what I'm saying? There could be multiple masks in there. But the top level, the zone manager, what they do is like exactly what you like to describe.

They make this list. They make an arbitrary rule like what you just described. They could have at least a list of one K by CIP provider. or they can have as many as they want to. And they describe what their requirement is, right? And they could say, you know, if you were able to prove this and this and this, we will allow you to.

And this will be the list of assets that will be listed in this zone, right? They might say they might not list the cash or money or whatever. Up to them, not to us. Then I kind of like get a shielded address of some kind in that zone. Yeah. And then I might be able to do two things. A, if I'm wanting to do things that are in the zone itself, so another user has a shielded asset in that same zone,

then I could do like a shielded swap with that user. So Anish is in this. Between you and me, like imagine that we were describing. Like Anish and Meher, both FSF K-YC, we are both in the same zone, right by the same zone manager. Imagine Sebastian to be the sole manager. Okay, so we both are here. We can trade between ourselves.

Like, that is definitely one. Yes. And on the other side, if I want to interact with a different system, now that different system is New York, that's kind of, I don't know, uniswap running on polygon, then to that different system, I just appear as a normal polygon address of some kind, and I can commit money or remove money.

I can do whatever I could do in New York, because I am appearing as a normal address. Okay, so just to be very clear. So there's a couple of nuances we need to be very sure of. So as a zone manager, you might not allow interzone interactions, right? So because the risk is more for zone manager. There might be agreements between Indus zone. So imagine Seb was when Adrian was the other one zone manager.

So they have an agreement. They allow and they have equivalency in compliance. Then they could allow as to, like, I could be in Sebastian's zone and you and Adrian zone. We can actually have this transfer and we could be fine. And the thing that I think you are kind of referring to is an external one, right? The external one is like we don't have a lot of control over it. We are assuming that these other things and we can only prove our innocence, right? The proof of innocence is our side.

We can't prove innocence on their side because we don't know. Assumption here is like they look at all the regulator looks at the other side. A regulator has a view of the other side. I mean, the question here is being asked is what is it that you have been doing? And we can definitely answer what we have been doing the fullest required legal requirement in that sense. Does it make sense? Kind of. So on a high level, on a high level, it's like if there's a zone, a user can come,

they can comply with the rules for entering the zone and they entered the zone. they got some assets on a shielded address, and they could use their shielded address to do some kind of more public transaction on the UNISOP running on Polygon. You deploy your strategy? Absolutely. Absolutely.

But the zone, of course, cannot provide any kind of guarantee that that thing happening on the public transaction met certain rules of the land. It might break certain rules of the land. And of course, the zone cannot provide that guarantee. Yeah, absolutely. But if the zone, if the transaction happens between two addresses inside the zone itself,

for those, the zone manager can provide probably greater guarantees. Yeah. So the guarantee is cryptographic guarantee, right? Like all of this is cryptographic guarantees. There are no other guarantees of any kind. There's like no, trust me, bro, no. This is all cryptographic guarantees. Everything that's happening, you have cryptographic security margin and all our cryptographic security.

right like you know previously set is cryptographically bounded your security margin is cryptographically mounted you know all of those things so it's like there is no such thing as like we are doing magic trust me bro no everything we are doing clearly articulated optographically provided the proof is visible to you you as a user can actually validate it and you be happy with it right right so so in this whole journey where i started with a normal polygon address. I moved into a multi-acid zone. Shield a pool. A shield zone. And then I got an address and then I did something on the uniswap. I got a different asset. That also is now part of the shielded zone. And then at some point I unshielded and I went back to my to my normal

address. And in this whole flow, there is unlinkability. The transaction that happened on Uniswap, on Polygon, and my original address, that transaction cannot be linked,

those two things cannot be linked by anyone that is not the KYC provider and not the zone administrator. Yeah. Yeah. And they can't do anything in that sense. So it's like if everybody colludes, right? then things would be possible. The person who could actually reveal everything is you. You can actually reveal things, right? If you as may have, want to reveal things, you can. But, you know,

otherwise, because of the way we do KYT, if KYT in a provider has some transactional detail, you can correlate all those things. But that's like, you know, you need to go around the world, collect all the data, put all those things together, yes. I mean, in the world, there is no this thing is perfect privacy. Traffic analysis implies people can actually put things in the window. So cryptographically speaking, we try a level best. It's like a classic example I give. If there's a room and there's a dough and you can have a zero-rolls proof that I have the

ability to leave the room, right? If it's just me, there's not privacy, right? There's a thousand people. You have one in thousand chance that you can guess who it is. The same applies to, you know, Panther. If the privacy set is a thousand, a privacy. it touches 10,000. Again, there's a trade-off, right? And I always describe to people this trade-off. So, you know, if you were to think about a circle and a square, a circle, a piece of this,

and a square that fits in, the area of the square is always bigger than the circle, right? So when you have a curve and you straighten it out, in the area we come back. So effectively, what happens is like when you do transactions, you will be forced to do batching, because you have to do batching to provide privacy. That implies, you know, imagine an AMM, you have X to Y is a constant. You have a DBA by a DX, right, which is that curve of the thing. It gets straightened out a bit, right? That means that there's a small loss that's happening because the instantaneous price

is not being available to everybody, right? So this is the price we have to pay for providing privacy. So in a perfect world, unless your strategy has better alpha than this difference in curves, plus the gas charges or the charges of doing whatever it is. But that's the challenge we will always have. You know, there is definitely that thing, that that's why we actually have all the, you know, dark pools and the way they're willing to spend so much money

to get data centers right next to wherever the exchanges. And everybody gets the cabling, you know, I mean, literally one should read the book on dark pools, and that will give you the narrative. So there's a lot of money being made, right? And so, you know, my expectation, again, I haven't really tested this thesis out because I don't have. Like, there is no Panda that exists right now, as you rightly pointed out, which you could actually do exactly what Panther does. Like, we have provided all the tooling that one requires to do compliance, right, to best-affirabilities other than just this committee, right?

Committee is hard thing to implement because, you know, decentralized protocol is almost impossible to agree to a committee, get the committee to, you know, do all the crap. Right. But everything else has been done. Now the thing is like you could easily do all those things. And the assumption on the other side is that there's a value that trade five C is in dark pool that they will actually see in doing transactions and deploying strategies into defy. Right. I mean, I think of it as like a multi-legged strategy is right. I'm sure you have seen a whole bunch of them. Right. And here is like there is a good amount of alpha to be made in multi-legged strategies. Right. And, you know, it's Imagine Banda were deployed in multiple EV-encombattoe once. You can actually go across. I said going back to your zone manager question, the zone managers agree that these transactions are allowed, and you get K-YC in all the different ones, whichever you decide.

And then you can do all of this across all the zones and make money. I mean, there's nothing stopping you. I mean, yes, there is a small chance that you have to pay the gas fees for doing all these things, plus any protocol fees that is incurred you have to pay. but otherwise. The thing I normally say to every L1 founder is like, look, what PANTH provides you is the ability for you to do whatever you want to do

in a private sense. And you keep 99 plus X of all the value that you create. What Panther or similar protocols will do is like, they charge you because you can't do it for free. Somebody has to pay for having to run all this thing. right? So that fee need to be paid, but otherwise all the alpha, everybody creates, is accrued on the L1. And L1s and L2s are the biggest winners and the users are the biggest winners. And we as a protocol provider, we just, oh, you know, I should probably say to a large extent, this has been a very much a passion project. So I conceptually understand the kind of party that that will be a KYC provider. This is a party that, has probably some kind of automated systems where you upload a driving license

and they're able to verify that it's genuine or not. They are specializing in technology like that. They make good K-Y-C providers. I don't understand what kind of party in the real world is going to be this zone administrator. Is it like a Tad-Fi institution we are looking at?

It could be somebody who has a virtual asset service provider license, right? So, you know, day one, we are probably going to use a DAO as an initial zone manager. But in a world where we have a protocol being successful, anybody who actually wants to do something straddle between the tools, who has a license to do this. So the reason I say this is like it's a regulatory issue, right?

We could just have this thing running on its own headless in that sense. But because of the way we actually want to have this ability, for the regulators to talk to everybody. They need to be somebody responsible, right? So you need to have to have somebody who they could go to and ask, okay, who are all the people who could actually provide KYC?

And why, what was your criteria? And then you have to provide them with, okay, so when they have an interaction of the regulators, regulators say, okay, if you want to do this, these are the KYC providers. They go, yep. So you, the regulator, ask me to do this.

And here is a certificate that, you know, or the letter of inter, whatever that is, that the interaction between the two parties, so the parties are very clear as to what the regulatory requirement was and how it was agreed and how things were done. So, you know, otherwise what will happen is because we have to deal with the so-called traditional finance world, we need to have some sort of an equivalence. So, you know, this is like a possible equivalence mechanism. Still, there's a bit of lack of clarity in terms of who exactly would be that because we don't know. Like, we are talking to like a bunch of people. There have been different levels of interest, you know, in an ideal world as somebody who really understands this, if they come back, come up to us, that'll be pretty awesome because, like,

you know, we build everything, right? As I was saying, he, like, my expertise is very much for search and building, right? I'm good at thinking about protocols, and putting together a team, designing a protocol, getting it to a place where it's camera. I am not a marketing guy. I am not a BDI guy.

That's my co-founder, right? So, you know, waiting the two of us, that's how it is. So I can only say to you that, you know, we will definitely take the horse to the water. The horse is going to drink or not

is entirely up to the horse. Cool. So how does it work? So when I go from, from a normal address to a shielded address, what's the underlying technological engine that's making it with? Very simple.

It's a very simple mechanism. You know, it's a fist of the five circuits. There's a map that exists from your address to a new address, right? So you could actually prove that this is the address that you have. And that's how you get mapped to the new address. So when you come back from the KYC provider, Then there's this as a zoonalore knowledge mechanism that actually maps you from your first set of addresses to the new address, right? And that's the first set, the circus that are there.

And there are like a few trees that we have. Like there's a static tree, then a bus, a taxi, and the other tree. I car over the name of the tree. There are four trees that are there. So essentially, you know, all the data for a zone is like in the static tree plus the zone manager contains all the things. So effectively any data that need to be there is all. updated there and all the rest of it get updated into trees and that so essentially all of this are kind of Merkel trees and loosens because it's a UDXO thing these are all Merckle trees right

so you have an address that's being created so that will map to a UDXO in a Merkel tree that says and there's a map between the two that's kind of you know shielded by the normal zero-ranoise mechanism right so you can actually if you sort decide you want to you want to really can. But, you know, nobody else can actually do that, right? That's cool. That's cool. So, so Anish, you have a version one minute launch coming in the next couple of months, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, I would say it's more six to eight weeks. Okay, so I'll give you a full disclosure. We have our audit, started with Veridize. I think it's two weeks now.

A week or two, I mean, I'm traveling, so I'm pretty bad. Don't hold me responsible for slipping days. So when that's complete, assuming there are no major bucks, we are very close to, you know, there are two, three more phases at best that need to be released so we can actually release it to the magnet. And what will be part of this first mean net? Okay, so let me look at my notes. So I'm going to look at my notes and tell you what's there.

So, you know, stage one is ZACR registration. So this is the first set that you were describing, right? Then there's just, okay, there is some, I should probably describe, there is the privacy staking mechanism which I kind of mentioned in passing, but it's a mechanism by which you actually reward people for providing privacy, right? And you have this construct, which is like a ZZKP, just like an internal thing to provide privacy. Otherwise, there's this linking that is possible.

So that is also in V-1. So I'm just imagining it as accounts that are creating transactional activity on a zone, just so that genuine economic activity can be masked inside that kind of fake transactional activity happening in that zone. Yeah, I mean, it could be you are doing transactions, which are real transactions, but you need to have enough transactions, right? It doesn't have to be fake in that sense. There is no need to do fakes, right? You just need to do transactions.

If you do real transactions, it will better, right? So the overall privacy set increases. So imagine there's a thousand people. And thousand people are deploying various things on Uniswap. You have a privacy set of a thousand straight up, right? That's what it is. And all of you will get your rewards from doing all these things. And then there's a map between this.

So this is part of the V1 functionality. Then a shielding, so essentially what we were describing, then there are transfers between internal to mass so between you and I in that sense then that is like a Z account's directory service so you can actually get some idea of where things are then intra mass transfers and messages okay so you could transfer between to mass I remember we were talking up New York and San Francisco going back to your example as part of one of these zones with one administrative anise being another zone, another administrator being able to exchange assets across zones, provided the rules of the two zones match in some way. Absolutely, yes. And then it's like we call it a bundler.

So, you know, when the transaction happened, somebody needs to put all these things together. That's, you know, we could call it a miner or a bundler. So that's one of the things that we have built. And that I told you about like a, you know, different. kind of trees that are there for trees. So there's a tree called taxi tree. So that, then the bus tree and then a car over the ferry tree, okay? And then there's a last tree. Icarra over the tree. Then withdrawals, basic disclosures, and ZE account renewal, right? So withdrawals is like you want to withdraw something, you know, basic disclosure is you do the transaction, you want

to reveal. As the account renewal is like K-Y-C. You remember a conversation about, you want to withdraw. about K-Y-C, we have K-Y-C is ephemeral. They are not permanent, right? So you have to renew. Okay, so then we have a D5 scrap. Essentially, there's an adapter to your protocol. That's a D-V-R protocol, so we can do that. So there's something we call advanced disclosures.

So it's kind of hard to describe it in simple terms, but essentially you have ways by which you can reveal bits of things, right? So disclosure is like a computer-reviewed mechanism. Advocers disclosure is like, you want to reveal some bits of it, right? And increasing the number of assets that need to be there. So the number of assets that are there is kind of limited. So we are kind of, you know, adding more and more assets. So last of the bits is what we call an involuntary disclosure. So this is if it's required that, you know, if authorities come in and all the parties, you know, agree to do what they need to do.

then they can actually construct certain pieces. And then there's Z trade, which is what I was describing, between the two of us, and then migration from 0.5 to 1. That is, yeah, I think that's pretty much, I think I've described all of it. Actually, there's a huge,

that's a huge list of features. There's a huge list of features. Yeah, you're working very hard. It's still working very hard. So I should give my team the credit, right? I talk nonsense to them, get pipeboards, draw things, they actually go, look at it and come back to me. And yeah, I'm very lucky to have a very good team.

Yeah, of course, like the flip side of it is because it's a huge list of features, there would be like unexpected behaviors where people will end up leaking information that the thought was safe and things like that. It is possible we will have to, yeah. It is very possible we might find things, yeah. Oh, yeah, we didn't think people could do this. Wow. Yeah, that's very possible.

But, you know, you're optimistic. Yeah. So it's like important to start small. Important for users to start with small amounts and test on the system. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, overall, the protocol is kind of limited to a thousand bucks. So, you know, that's a whole idea. The idea is like, you know, minimal KYC, minimal amount of transactions.

So you could actually get used. People can get used to Panther. and then when Panther is much more known to people and people are used to the behavior, then the world is their oyster. They can build their strategies and deploy it and go to whatever they want. I am actually curious.

There's an element to such a protocol, which is there's a massive element, which is, okay, how do you even conceive of and build this thing which you have solved? But the other problematic part is distribution, getting people to actually use it. which is a very different problem. So are there any breakthroughs or successes in that dimension,

like XOI party is committing to use Panther in a certain way? So, yeah, I mean, I have to admit, like, you know, I've been mostly the person responsible for the first part, right? I'm the co-founder, CTO, and the chief scientist. It's been thinking about the problem. And I've actually delegated the BD. I mean, we work together, in the larger sense, you know, the conversations had either one of us and my co-founder.

So there have been a bunch of conversations that's been there. We have lots of interest from various parties. We are in conversation with Coinbase and other people. So I don't know. Like, you know, it's between, you know, talking and signing the contract, right? So he's kept. So definitely there are multiple parties that we be talking to, you know, I, I, you know, I, can't name names, but definitely there are three, at least more than five people that we have

been talking to, like, who have a possible, you know, kind of institutional, kind of somewhere in the spectrum, right? So that's the, that's the thinking. The thinking is, like, what are these people who are institution, you know, what I wouldn't call it institutional, because institutional would require a lot more than Panther could actually do right now, right? So the idea it is, like, Get Panther. Panther has been aimed at this space in the market where, you know, retail uses all the way up to, say, you know, minimal family offices who have minimal regulator requirements can actually go use. That's where we are aiming it. But if you want to go beyond where we go to, like, traditional, you know, hardcore set of people, that would require a lot more heavy lifting,

like, you know, all the integrations and everything, which I think it will take a while. But, you know, The idea here is getting people who are from standard retail investors to people who run family offices with minimal regulatory requirement. They're K-YC, K-Y-T, tax returns. That's the kind of thing that you are required to, you know, fulfill. That's the idea, getting them onboarded. I mean, we are also giving people incentives, right, like to, you know, play with the protocol. So the initial plan is to, you know, pretty much the largest chunk of the protocol, you know, tokens, allocated out to give everybody incentives, right?

So the idea here is like, if the protocol succeeds, everybody who participates succeeds. So the assumption here is like, A, there is some need for users, the average joe in the street, who understands what privacy is and has some strategies that they want to deploy, would like to use a protocol like Panther. and B, given the regulatory, you know, landscape that the utility function of regulation is quite high and people want to have, you know, things in the right manner, right? And that's B. And C is that given there is, you know, some slight expenses effectively you have to pay for the gas fees and all the things, right? There will be a fee. And the assumption here is like the alpha that people have

is bigger than the fee, so it really makes economic sense for them to actually do this, and the friction is within acceptable bounds. These are all assumptions that's been making. So, Anish, is it correct to understand that the fee is there because, okay, the underneath Polygon is charging something, but in a sense, because in order to provide privacy, you have to incentivize people to do transactions that might sometimes be fake. somebody needs to pay for those transactions to happen, which reflects as a fee on the genuine users of the Panther Protocol, right?

Yes, absolutely. You're absolutely right, yes. You're spot on, thank you. It's like fee for cover traffic in a sense. Yes, absolutely. That's, yeah. That's one way to think about it. Like, you know, there has to be a fee that allows the ecosystem to have a

possibility of some game, right? So otherwise it would be like a, you know, it's a tragedy of comments. So we have a problem with strategy, comments, et cetera. So that's why we have a fee structure. The fee structure would allow a fee to be levied on the users and give it out to everybody who helps the ecosystem to flourish

because it's in the best interest of everybody in the ecosystem to provide privacy. It will be a loose if everybody starts revealing their set, right? So that's the whole idea. I mean, it's okay if you reveal it to your regulators. And the construct here is like, you did your transactions.

End of the year, you all reveal everything to your regulators. Not a problem because, like, you know, your strategy, you can have it for a whole year, right? You run your strategy, you made your money, you paid your tax returns, everything is fine. Now you can't go ahead and use the same strategy tomorrow because now, you know, IRS has access to all of this. And, you know, who knows what happens, right? So you have the Panther token and tell us about how these were distributed and, you know, what is the tokenomics? How many tokens and? Oh, gosh.

That's a tricky bit. I can't have it top of my head, but I'll describe it to you. It's been a while since I last worked on it. As I was saying, like, you know, as the person who puts a lot of this in one's head, a lot of the things skip by my mind, right? So you have buckets of problems as they go. It's like a bucket of problems where you need to talk to the regulators to make sure what you're doing meets whatever it is. A bucket of problems where you look at ZK and the progress in ZK.

A bucket of problems in D5 where you look at DFI and solve that. And then there is other things that you did in the past, right? So in terms of Ptoconomics, what has happened is like an early model was produced in 2020, 2021. So we had like a bunch of private sales. So, you know, both me and my co-founder put in our own money, a bunch of our friends put in money. And then we had a public sale in 2021. And then, you know, the tokens, there's this fraction between 10 to 15 percent of it was allocated to the team.

10 to 15 percent was allocated to the foundation. So there's a foundation that actually is supposed to, you know, look after this. So the foundation is based in Gibraltar. then this whole bunch of tokens has been allocated to, you know, providing rewards for, you know, the thing that you were describing, which is essentially providing privacy set. Then a small bit of tokens were allocated to actually help build the ecosystem. So this is kind of how it was overall made out. And it was a very long curve. It's like an emission curve first for like 144 months, if I'm not mistaken, 12 years.

So we kind of thought about it for like, you know, in my mind, if a protocol would take that long, it's not the optimal place to be, right? My expectation is a lot of, you know, maybe a year, maybe two years. Before that, it would rest the equilibrium. Equilibrium means there's enough of fees that's coming into the protocol that the protocol is so sustaining. So once that happens, then the emission doesn't really matter. Right?

Like emission is just an emission. It doesn't really make any difference because, you know, fees in this thing makes a sustain. So that's the thing. Perfect. And I'm actually curious on what is the fee-making model of Panthers? So I'll define my question better. So in your protocol, you have the different parties, so the KYC provider, the zone administrator, the user that's shielding, probably in the future the regulator might itself have some kind of powers, etc.

Oh, if they decide. Yes. Right. Yes. So, and of course, it is pretty obvious that the user will pay for privacy. So if I'm on Polygon and I interact with Uniswarp, without Panther, my cost is X. But if I interact via Panther, it is X plus Y and that Y. You can imagine that Y is paid for this covered traffic or this extra economic activity, that Panther protocol.

A whole bunch of things, right? it's to pay for the gas fees for running the ZK is also to provide things that are acquired also to provide car traffic or everything like you need to think of it like you know in one sense they need to be in my head sometimes I think of it

like you need to build upgrades so if you are very successful what you need to happen is that you should go to the Dow users of the Dow should be able to put a proposal just like okay you need to to actually improve this from whatever this is to that. So, you know, this is all list of all things that you want to do. The cost of all of that needs to be underwritten over time by fees.

Otherwise, it's kind of impossible. Like, you can't have a laws making mechanism to be able to deliver services to everybody. That's the whole idea. Right. So do you intend to charge the user, like you intend to charge the user, but do you also intend to charge the zone administrator as well? Because in a sense, that zone as zone administrator is a financial service provider. And is there a business model to be made on their side too?

We haven't really thought that through in that sense. Because it is very possible that if you were to create a particular zone which is like very internal to yourself and nothing to do with like an external protocol, maybe, right? The assumption here is like, you know, this is public good, right? In my head, this is public good. Privacy for protocols is public good, right? And we need to support it. And we need to assume like users of the ecosystem, right? And that's the way we are thinking. But if it's like separate and completely segregated and the zone manager runs this in a very different world, you know, the value of public good to you and me as an average use.

at the ecosystem is diminishing. Maybe there's a case to be had, right? We haven't come across anybody who said this to us. We want to do something that you would never be able to interact with. It is very possible they might do that, right? They might have some sort of, what do we call a hybrid kind of chain that they use for something and they want to deploy Panther and they want to, you know, be his own manager. Well, yes, they can be.

In that instance, yes, that's a different instance, right? So, you know, we are not, you and me as an average, you know, L1, L2 user is not getting anything out of it. Cool. So we're coming to the end of the conversation, Anish. Would you like to tell our listeners where they could find more about the Panther Protocol and what are interesting resources? Okay, so the thing would be, you know, if you go to Panther Protocol.com. dot iO, SETP, SETP, S Panther Protocol, dot I.O. We have a bunch of things

there. Then there's docks.companth protocol that's there as well. Then there are a bunch of blocks there as well. And there's plain a bunch of talks that's been given mostly by me and members of our team. So we've, you know, I should have said, we've actually done a bit more work in the ZK space as such. We've been, you know, active in the Z-Price. We've actually published a ZK-snock scheme of our own.

if you have an IBC scheme of her own. Like, we've done a bunch of things, so, you know, there are a couple of preprints that's available. So, you know, feel free to, you know, look around. If you have any difficulty, there's a community manager. His name is Yoris. And if you want to get old of him,

it's Zokk 780 on Delegraph, and he would definitely respond to any of those things. If everything fails, then drop me an email. Hanishat Panther Protocol. or I am zero knowledge on telegram. Cool. Thanks, Anish, for the interview,

and I look forward to try Panther. Most welcome. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week. You can find and subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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