Epicenter - Learn about Crypto, Blockchain, Ethereum, Bitcoin and Distributed Technologies - Brian Hoffman: OpenBazaar – Peer-To-Peer Commerce, Third-Party Arbitration, Ricardian Contracts

Episode Date: February 23, 2015

What Bitcoin did for money, OpenBazaar is trying to achieve for commerce. Born as a fork of the Dark Market project, OpenBazaar aims to facilitate online trade by removing unneeded middlemen. Built as an open source protocol, users simply install the application on their computer to gain access to marketplaces available on the network. From the app, they may also place items or services for sale by creating “Ricardian contracts”, which get propagated to the network and made accessible to everyone to see. The protocol, which uses Bitcoin as a means of payments, utilises multi-signature transactions. This makes it possible for transacting parties to include third-party arbitrators, who may intervene in the event of a dispute. We talked to Brian Hoffman, the project’s Lead Developer, about this paradigm-shifting project and the potential it has to disrupt person-to-person marketplaces such as eBay. Currently in beta, OpenBazaar is due for a full release in Q1-Q2 of 2015. Topics covered in this episode: History and current status of the project Mechanics of a simple transaction on OpenBazaar Ricardian contracts OpenBazaar’s proposed arbitration model Reputation and the important role it plays in peer-to-peer trading Business models that may be threatened by this technology Episode links: OpenBazaar OpenBazaar Git Repo Ricardian Contracts OpenBazaar Reddit Bitrated This episode is hosted by Brian Fabian Crain and Sébastien Couture. Show notes and listening options: epicenter.tv/067

This episode of Epicenter Bitcoin is brought to you by Shapeshift.I.O. With no account or sign up required, it's the easiest way to buy and sell light coin, doche coin, dark coin, and other leading cryptocurrencies. Go to shapeshift.io to instantly convert all coins and to discover the future of cryptocurrency exchanges. Hello, welcome to Epcenter Bitcoin, the show which talks about the technologies, projects, and startups driving decentralization and the global cryptocurrency revolution. My name is Sebastanku, and my name is Brian Kovang. We're here today with Brian, another Brian Hoffman, so it's going to be confusing.

He is the lead developer, so the main guy behind Open Bazaar. I'm sure many of you have heard of Open Bazaar. Open Bazaar is the idea to have a completely decentralized marketplace. It's a really revolutionary idea, really interesting idea, and huge potential. So really excited to talk about that today. Now, before we get started, and before let Brian introduce himself a bit as well, we just wanted to mention briefly

at the Inside Bitcoin's conference that's coming up in Berlin. So that's going to be on March 5th and 6th. I'm going to be there. Saban's going to be there. Sean Jones is also going to be there. So everyone's going to be there. I'm also going to give a talk like one of the keynotes on the second day

about many of the issues we've been talking about over the last months, surrounding Bitcoin economics and the sort of long-term feasibility of Bitcoin. So I really look forward to that. And actually, we're also going to be organizing a meet-up on the evening before the conference. I think Sebastian is going to give a talk then. And we're going to have a few other talks. I think we'll be a big meet-up perhaps. I expect, you know, hopefully we'll have like 100 people or something.

So it should be fun. So if anybody wants to come or is planning to come, please let us know. We'd love to meet up. And also you can get 15% off with the discount code. Epicenter IBC for Inside Bitcoin's conference, I guess. Yeah, so epicenter IBC in all caps, 15% off. If the discount code doesn't work, we'll have a the show notes as well.

So Brian, can you tell us a little bit about how you got started in the cryptocurrency space and how you got started with OpenBazaar? Sure. So I guess I've been following Bitcoin in general for quite a bit of time now and I hadn't been involved in any projects

or any kind of coding in regards to the technology, but I was looking for something important to kind of get involved with, and I am not really sure why. But when I saw the demonstration about dark market up in Toronto at their hackathon, it looked like something that was pretty powerful, pretty interesting idea, and I saw that they had released the source code on GitHub. And so I looked into it and it was something that immediately I thought,

okay, I can get involved with this. I think it's probably, you know, within my skill set to start poking around and get involved. I actually emailed Amir, Taki, who had, who had, started that who came up with the idea for that and started that that proof of concept about getting involved and he said that he was planning on basically relinquishing the code to the community and just you know letting it go they weren't planning on working on it any further it was just like a 48 hour project and so he said you know just go ahead and do it whatever you want to do with it at the time they were they were pretty

busy with Dark Wallet and they still are. So they didn't really have the bandwidth to kind of work on it. And so I think about that time, Reddit was kind of hyping the idea up and everybody's getting excited about it, but it kind of took a quick turn towards the whole Silk Road kind of aspect of it. And the name was just like this huge controversy. And it was really disappointed to me personally because I felt like there was this huge potential for like a like a paradigm shift in a way that we were using cryptocurrencies and they were just so focused on like the name. It was just kind of ridiculous how you know crazy it was getting. And so I just said, you know what? Let's let's take the code. Let's rename it and just try and start clean and maybe people will start to

focus on on the actual, uh, important aspects of the project. And so that's what I did. I think it was on, on the, uh, beyond Bitcoin podcast that you, you talked about fundamentalism. And this kind of demonstrates, you know, to what extent people can be, you know, it can be, can feel strongly about certain things when, uh, when it's so charged with ideology. Um, but, but, uh, but, you know, I, I, I completely agree. with you that changing the name to something more accessible

to people and that sort of distances itself from the dark web aspect of it is definitely important and very valuable if you want to have some sort of mass adoption with this. Another important part of that

was that if the project was not going to be run by the dark wallet team it didn't really make sense to kind of keep that dark something branding. I didn't think that that was something we wanted to do because it kind of unnecessarily associated us with them and their team, and they're not involved.

So it also was a good way to separate that. So what's the main idea behind OpenBazaar? The main idea is that right now, with the decentralized Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, We have this beautiful kind of currency application. We have a bunch of like ideas all around how we use it and we have wallets and all this stuff. But people are still kind of scrambling around saying, well, where's the merchant adoption or, you know, where can I use it? Like it's only valuable if you can use it.

And for the longest time it seemed like it was really primarily valuable because of the speculation. As the price was going up, that's what people were finding. it valuable as they were saying okay I'll buy it now and then six months hopefully all made all this money and not really paying attention too much to how they were using it on a daily basis. I still find myself

having that issue and if you saw that CNN special the other day you saw that he had trouble spending, you know Morgan and Spurlock had trouble spending his money as well and so I think a lot of where like the business building in Bitcoin

has gone is you know building like a coin base or a bit pay, like where's a point of sale terminal, all these things to try and get traditional businesses using Bitcoin. And that's great. That's kind of been covered. But how do we make it, how do we enable all these people online that want to use Bitcoin to use it to do online e-commerce and also kind of keep the spirit of decentralization? Like, do we really need, you know, a big business?

like eBay or PayPal or somebody like that to kind of sit in the middle and babysit our e-commerce. We have this awesome peer-to-peer currency. Where is that business network? Where is that e-commerce network that allow us to kind of like seamlessly use it? And so that's where we see this huge potential, at least for like the first application of what OpenBazaar could be. Yeah, I think that's actually a great way of putting it. And I hadn't even thought of it like that before, right?

Because if you look at, and I think that's one of the problems we've been having in Bitcoin, is that there's not enough incentive for, like, users to adopt Bitcoin. Like, unless you, like, love the technology or, like, libertarian or want to speculate on that, like, why would you use Bitcoin? There's very, very few cases where it actually makes sense. I mean, I guess using, like, dark market is another one. And now if something like Microsoft accepts Bitcoin, well, it doesn't. doesn't matter for most people, right?

Because you were already able to buy there. It's not like a reason to then go out and buy Bitcoin, for example, get involved in cryptocurrencies. But then, of course, that's totally different with open bazaar now, because that is something you will have possibilities there that just aren't accessible unless you have cryptocurrencies, unless you engage in cryptocurrencies. So I mean, I agree.

I think that's a great way of putting it, that it really, it may well be more powerful driving adoption than all this merchant adoption for merchants where you can already pay with credit cards anyway. Yeah, and I think, you know, it's funny that the dark net market kind of aspect of using Bitcoin has been so negatively talked about because of the actual content that is on, that is being sold, right? But the people that are truly really analyzing it properly are looking at it and saying,

look, they are demonstrating the value of using a cryptocurrency, right? Like, they have built a working marketplace, a community, a reputation, you know, system. You know, it's just, it's a proof, it's a use case. It's proving the technology. And if you can take that and you can apply it in a broader sense, like don't just focus so much on selling drugs or guns or whatever. If we can bring that back into like what you would call, you know, the clear, net, it could be used for just about anything.

And it's like they've done all the legwork of just really showing that it can, that it can function. So, you know, what we're doing is we're, we're not going to, you know, replicate that exact business in the, in the, in the dark web and just bring it, bring it out for everybody to use. And I think it's going to be super powerful. I think when people get comfortable, they get beyond that whole, I don't want to use it for Silk Road type stuff.

you know, perception, I think there's going to be a huge drive for adoption of these kinds of projects, technologies. So could you walk us through a simple transaction? So let's say I'm a small business or maybe I'm an artisan. I make, I don't know, wooden spoons. And I want to sell them on, I want to sell them on Open Bazaar or using Open Bazaar. and I want to protect myself from fraud or from, you know, buyers that maybe aren't going to pay me. So I want to use an arbiter.

So let's say a simple, like, three-person transaction where there's a seller and arbiter and a buyer. Can you describe how that works? What's the process for initiating the transaction up until delivery of a product, let's say? Sure. So there's a lot of things involved with what you just said, right? and that's what makes this project, I think, pretty complex is that there's like several really complex and challenging areas, and we're trying to do all of them at once, right?

So I'll just, you know, I'll give you the kind of high-level walkthrough of, like, a transaction, like what you described. So first of all, you know, OpenBazaar, we're building it as a protocol and platform that can be used for just about any type of business. So as we build that protocol and design it, we're also building our own example client. It's kind of similar to Bitcoin, where Bitcoin is a protocol, but it also has, you know, they have the Satoshi client, the wallet, that is kind of the reference implementation of that protocol. And so we also have a client software that we're building that basically is the basic use case of OpenBazaar. And the way that it works for what you described is you would essentially download this client as a merchant or a buyer.

It's all the same client. So the merchant, we'll just start from where the merchant is actually putting the item for sale. So he would install this application and you can customize your storefront and all that stuff. And then you can add a listing into the Open Bazaar network. and what happens is it looks very much like it would, you know, for like an e-commerce tool where you can put a title, description, price, et cetera, about your item, pictures, whatever. But on the backside, what's happening is the client is generating what is called a Ricardian contract. And all that is, it's a structured JSON document, JSON, I mean, for non-programmers,

it's basically just a way to format the database. description of your listing. But at the same time, because it's a recording contract, it's also very human readable. And so it's almost like a real contract. If you were to look at it, a computer could understand it and do what it needs to do because it's structured, but also humans can look at it and very clearly understand what the terms of the listing and contract and service is. And so our client would generate that and it would announce it to the network. A buyer would come and download the same application and say search for, you know, wooden spoons. And your listing for wooden spoon would show up in your client, just like you would if you were

searching eBay or whatever. You'd click on that listing. And if it looked good, you'd say purchase, just like you always would in e-commerce tools. And then the thing that, or where it starts to deviate from the normal transaction online is normally you would assume that the merchant is also the arbiter, or perhaps PayPal is the arbiter. In this case, we don't have that, right, because it's just truly peer-to-peer. So the third party is what we call a notary. They're essentially an arbiter. But you can choose from a list of notaries that are all in the network,

and they all have, or they're going to, once the protocol is finished, but they will have a reputation score associated with them and you'll be able to kind of rank notaries and choose one that you trust that has a good fee structure and they would serve willingly as the third party to your purchase. And it's important to note that this third party doesn't exist unless, well, they don't enter into the equation unless there's a problem. This is basically just kind of like an insurance type thing.

Yeah, one question here. So if I'm assuming I'm the buyer now and I look for wooden spoons in my Open Bazaar client, how then does Sebastian's listing get to me, right? Because there's no server in the middle that I'm like calling that shows me gives me all the listings. So how does that process of distributing the contracts and offers work? so so when you when you connect when you open up your application and you connect to the network it goes out to a couple kind of like super nodes on the network who help you kind of bootstrap your visibility of all the different users on the system and then what it does is it

together all those clients as they're talking to each other they have they create what is called a distributed hash table which is basically a giant distributed data database. And this is where we kind of store information that's necessary for doing like product discovery and other aspects like finding notaries and stuff like that. So when you open up your app and you search for an item, it will basically go out to that network and look for listing IDs that match what you're searching for. And then you can go directly to those peers and get that data. So you mentioned the reference client. So this assumes that someone could develop an app, perhaps a merchant platform based on OpenBazaar on the

protocol. Could you, yeah, so could a merchant have open bizarre contracts on some other platform? This could be a proprietary platform like eBay. I mean, that would be very useful, but it could be like on his website, for example, or on another market app. or platform like on tour or either on the clear web. Yeah, and so that's kind of where we want to go with it, right? So we are publishing kind of the structure for these different Ricardian contracts.

So you can easily build any kind of tool or integrate it into any existing system to generate those contracts. So for instance, like let's say, let's say Craigslist wanted to get their stuff out onto the open bizarre network. You know, they could, if you create a Craigslist listing, they could, easily put all that data into a recording contract behind the scenes and then created open bazaar link and so when you search on craigslist and find like a listing that you like you know if there was a link you would click it and it would open your open bizarre client and you could use it to find that peer who's offering that service or whatever and do it through open bazaar so and you could do the same thing with other e-commerce sites you know instead of like

you know buy it here you could do buy it on open bazaar or whatever or they could even, you know, just do all that behind the scenes anyway. So, yeah, we're building a platform. The client, we're hoping to have kind of this API where people who are building custom applications that wanted to use OpenBazaar could just like, you know, call the API and do whatever they need to do and talk through our core client. Cool. Well, that sounds real interesting.

We'll get back to OpenBazaar and we want to get into Recurting contracts, how those work. arbitration and also talk about you know sort of new paradigm stuff in just a few minutes before we do that like to talk about our sponsor shape shift so shape shift as you know is the fast and easy way to buy and sell alt coins they support about a dozen different alt coins and uh what we'd like to do today is demonstrate one of their one of the features that they develop which is the shape shift lens and so ship shift lens is basically a well it's let's say Chrome extension, sorry. And that Chrome extension allows you anywhere in your browser that you see a Bitcoin address,

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And we'd like to thank Shapeshift for the support of Epicenter Bitcoin. And quite possibly the first dose donation. Of course, it gets to you guys as a Bitcoin donation, but at least it was sent as a those donations. So I don't know if somebody's, perhaps somebody has done it before with the same shapes of lens and you wouldn't know. So could you could you sort of just walk us through how like how this transaction would work? Like so I put my my wooden spoons up on open bazaar and then say Brian or one of you is interested in buying my nice wooden spoons to make some music. and you go ahead and pay for it with Bitcoin.

Can you describe the process there, like how the contracts get generated, et cetera? So when a user buys that contract, kind of where I was at, when he says, I want to buy this service or this product, he'll choose that third party, the notary. And then once that's done, he will basically, he'll sign that contract, that offer.

Right. So it has the original information, which is about the merchant and the service. And then he kind of adds some of his own data, which is like what he'll bid on the contract or what he's going to pay and all that stuff. And then he'll take that. He'll digitally sign it and he'll send that copy to the notary. The notary would then say, yeah, I'll be third party to this transaction. and what he does is because now he has that contract, it includes the merchant and the buyer's data, he has their Bitcoin public keys, and then he takes his public key,

and he is able to create a special escrow address from those three keys. And so therefore, at that point, the transaction is a two of three multi-signature transaction. And so the fun, funds will only go somewhere once two of the three of them agree to do so. And so you can see that at that point, right, like this whole transaction could occur without any interaction with the notary beyond just him initially agreeing because the buyer and seller have the power to move the funds either way on their own. And therefore, that's where, that's how Open Bazaar can basically be a feeless e-commerce

solution because when things are properly done, you know, everybody's happy. There's no one in the middle to say, you know, zoink, I'm going to take some fees from you guys just for, you know, showing up to our house. So that's one really big benefit of using Open Bazaar. While at the same time, if something does go wrong, you do have that third party in the involved. And they can be brought in to do arbitration if necessary. So at that point, the notary, he generates that escrow address and he sends his signed copy of that contract back to all parties. So everybody's got a contract of the three parties having signed this agreement, this transaction. Within the client, it's a lot more, it's a lot simpler than kind of what I'm describing.

I'm talking behind the scenes. So basically what happens is once the notary is signed it, he'll just, you know, mark it in the app. that he's on board and then everybody will get notified that the transaction is going on. The buyer can then deposit the money for that item into the escrow address. And once that's done, the merchant will see that the money is in that account, that it's available and it's locked, and then he will be able to ship the item. once the buyer sees that the item has been shipped and everything is all good, then he would say, okay, go ahead, release the funds,

and then the multi-signature transaction would be signed and sent to the merchant. The merchant could then sign it and broadcast it to the Bitcoin network, and the money will be moved, and everybody's happy. So that's the happy case in a nutshell. Yeah, I mean, I think the amazing thing about this, you know, It's just how much it all bases on this really simple Bitcoin feature of multi-signo, because this is so powerful. There's so many things you can do.

And here really you are sort of replacing one of the, essentially, so Bitcoin is essentially replacing two of the core functionalities that you could say some platform that eBay has, right? One is the payment side. So that's just purely Bitcoin, right? And then you have the whole dispute side, which then you have the multi-sake with the arbitrator. So it's pretty, I think it's pretty amazing, you know, how powerful multisic is. And at the same time, you describe the very simple transaction here, but you can also imagine doing something supremely more complex than a simple three-party, like, merchant, buyer, arbiter.

transaction. You know, you could have multiple arbiters. You could have, I would even go as far as saying that if we have smart oracles, you could even include some of those in the transaction. So, for example, if you want to do shipment tracking and have that be sort of one of the ways to unlock funds or to validate that, you know, the item was shipped. And that takes, one of the, it becomes one of the signatures to the multi-sig. Someone's working, actually someone was working on this startup called Handshake. So, you know, you could have, you could have transactions which are quite complex and that are difficult to recreate today with the systems that we have in place.

Yeah, and obviously what we just talked about is kind of like the most barebone simple use case of what we're doing. I mean, we have, you know, our focus is to try and prove it out by doing this and then expanding it from there. But yeah, there's all kinds of different complex things you can do. And like the multi-signature transaction, you know, it doesn't always have to be just three parties. There's other ways to include additional parties and there may be reasons for doing so in different types of, you know, deals. So, yeah, definitely. I think we're learning as we go.

and it won't be long before we'll start looking at more advanced use cases, I think, like what you described. So we mentioned recording contracts a few times, and it seems like those are sort of a core component of Open Bazaar. Can you explain briefly what those are? The Recardian contracts. So the Recardian contracts are this really ingenious idea. I'd love to be able to take credit for it, but I can't. They were originally kind of thought up by a gentleman named Ian Grieg. And he is kind of the godfather of the Ricardian contract and described what it was

and how it kind of would work from a beginner level. And he actually published some white paper, I believe, online about what it is and how they work. And several projects have already begun to look at using. them and trying to figure out how they could apply to what they're doing. I know that Open Transactions is one group that uses the Ricardian contract. And also, I think that Ethereum is also looking into ways that they might be able to use Recardian contracts. They can be very customizable, flexible in ways to support different use cases. There's no, like, fixed, um, format or structure of like how they look so they can model just about any kind of

online transaction but like I said before I mean the real point of it is that these are contracts that are computer parsable they're able to be read by computers and and used programmatically while at the same time remaining very human readable and so you kind of get that dual benefit from from that we have several people on our team that are working primarily on like contracts and like how they can be used and what our structures are going to be what the format's going to be one of them is our main guy is dr. Washington Sanchez who's based out of Australia and he is super smart guy who's working on coming up with our our version 1.0 standards for for doing these direct transactions and he's

also published a bunch of different little descriptions and walkthroughs of different use cases like peer-to-peer lending and auctions. So like an eBay style auction could be supported with this. And there's a bunch of different ways that the contracts can be extended to support really cool new ideas. And I've even seen people proposing systems like a decentralized Uber replacement using these contracts. It's kind of the lifeblood of our project. Cool.

Well, let's talk a little bit more about the question of arbitration. I guess there are two different functions. So there's first is the arbiter and there's also notary. And I read somewhere that those should be separated. Can you explain that? And why are there two different ones and not just one? So this is one of the aspects of our project that's still a little up in the air because we're still trying to figure out what the real best approach is for this. But essentially the reason for the separation is that a notary in our eyes is the party that should be responsible for kind of shepherding the transaction.

So they're the one that would be signing the transaction, you know, communicating with the, with the other two parties, just kind of handling the basic stuff. Where the arbitration comes in is that at this point, you know, let's say there's a problem. A guy is selling, you know, a fancy watch and they're arguing over the quality of it or like some detail about it that wasn't, you know, wasn't what the buyer thought. It needs, it has, there's some expertise there, right? So when arbitration comes in and he has to determine what to do, then you can bring in this arbiter who would have that expertise, be able to make that kind of decision, and basically advise the notary to do what is in the best interest for all parties. So the notary acts on behalf of the parties involved in the transaction?

Yeah. So the notary should be someone that both parties trust. the importance of that can't be overstated because they're the ones that are that second party. If the buyer somehow had more of an advantage with that notary, there could be collusion against the third party and they could release funds wherever they wanted, right? It even could be the case that the buyer and the notary are the same person

or the merchant and the notary are the same person, and then what would you do? So it's really important that that third party is somebody that both sides trust. And I think that that's going to be one of the big challenges of getting this network off the ground because, you know, any new reputation system or any reputation system in general is going to be gamed at some point, right? People are going to try and figure out ways to do fraudulent actions or, like, collude against naive users. Right. So that's where reputation becomes really, really crucial, no, in the selection of the notary and the arbiter as well.

Yeah, the reputation, I mean, it's probably the single biggest issue with this project and the one that's the least solved at this point. We have a lot of really great ideas about what we want to do to solve the problem. We're not really sure if they're going to work. I mean, in the end, this is all a big experiment to see if we can do this in a decentralized way. I mean, there's a reason why businesses that you could consider peer-to-peer are still very centralized. It's much easier to control the experience for all your users and kind of maintain control of what's going on and not let it get out of hand. Like Uber is considered a peer-to-peer service, right?

Like, I'm offering you a car service. It's just me and you doing things. there's still Uber is that third party is that trusted third party and if there's a problem we both know that like Uber would step in and handle whatever issue there is right like if the merchant got screwed over or the buyer had some issue with the merchant they could step in and do something they could do that arbitration step but in a decentralized network where everybody is anonymous how do you provide that for users like how how can you do that like I can trust Uber, I know they're a company, I can call them, I can write to them, I can go and visit them or

whatever. They have a physical address in some country, but like with three parties that are anonymous around the world, how do you do that? And that's the big question that we're trying to answer. And that's a huge part of what we're working on. I mean, that seems to be one of the sort of absolute core questions in the whole Bitcoin space, and especially in the whole Bitcoin 2.0 space, because there's so many cases where that becomes absolutely critical to get this reputation problem right.

Yeah, and I think that, you know, with Bitcoin, that's one of the most, that's the, that's the, that's the beautiful thing about Bitcoin is they found a way to create that, that trusted, that trustless consensus without having to have that centralized person. That's, that's what's so elegant about, you know, the whole design. What an interesting way to think about how this sort of disrupts the existing model. So now if we take the peer-to-peer exchange scenario where you have two parties transacting with each other, PayPal, in the case of eBay, would be the arbiter. If there's a dispute, then PayPal would intervene and side on either side.

after some sort of conflict resolution process. And we pay for that indirectly in fees. You could also argue that within the Visa network or MasterCard credit cards, you pay for some sort of arbitration also in banking, like the fees get absorbed in the system. This is somewhat different where you have to pay directly. You have to, it imputes the cost of arbitration on the parties in the transaction directly. How do you think people would, how do you think people would react to this?

And, and then secondly, how would arbitrators get paid? Do they get paid up front, like a percentage of the transaction for even being in the transaction and then get paid extra if they have to intervene? Or how does payment, how the payment models work? So, so generally right now, the way that it would work is that the notaries have a, they can decide on their their fee structure right so they could say uh you know it's going to be i'll charge one percent of whatever the transaction cost was to serve as your notary if you need me right so that and that's that's decided at purchase time so in that step where the buyer and the the buyer

you know says i'm going to buy it and he sends it over to the notary that's where that notary would put that terms of agreement in there into the recording contract. So that would be stated up front what he would be asking for if there was an issue. So let's say that it gets to the last step. The buyer paid, the seller shipped, and then they're deadlocked. They can't figure out what to do. The buyer won't release the funds or whatever. They could notify that notary and he would basically, you know, figure out what's going on.

he could then add his fee into the into the transaction, the release funds transaction and send it to the parties and then they could sign it and broadcast it. And that would most likely it would include his fees as he stated and then it would get broadcast the network and done that way. So that's where he's able to insert his fees. Now, why do we think that that's going to work? Well, I mean, we're basically democratizing that third party position, right?

So anybody can come onto the network and say, I want to be a notary and serve in that role and start building reputation. It creates another way for people to make income in the system and serve it in that capacity. One idea that we talked about a long time ago, I remember hearing about it and thought this is absolutely brilliant and this is going to be so important. In the future, it's a service that big rated. Are you probably familiar with it? know, but it has the same idea of a marketplace of arbitration. Will you integrate that in some way? It seems like that would be a perfect fit.

Yeah, I think BitRated is great. I think their newest version is really awesome. We actually talk with Netav, you know, the creator of BitRated. We've talked to them before in the past and then just recently, you know, as they've released their new version because they're doing something that's so similar in the space. but it's very focused on that one aspect of what we're doing. And it's also, it's almost like a competitor more than really something that we'd integrate together, I think,

because of the different strategy, right? They have a more centralized approach to this. But they're doing something with the same goal in mind, right? They're building a web of trust where people can build reputation and serve as that third party. And so I think that, you know, at some point in time, maybe there's a way that we can, work together, integrate what we're doing. I think it would be awesome. I think he's a great guy and their team is awesome and what they're doing is great. And so I would love to do that. I don't, I don't know if I see a perfect fit right now, but maybe in the future. I mean, one way I could

imagine, for example, right, if you have some sort of open bizarre client, right, it could, it could offer, like, you know, you could have an option, you know, bit traded, certified or rated, high-rated arbitrate, arbiter, and you know, it could display that information. You know, it could be like a way, maybe it could be a secondary, a secondary layer of reputation, right? That gets pulled in and, I mean, of course, it's not perfect, right, because it's, it may only be suitable in some use cases because it does get rid of their anonymity to some extent, right? like you I don't know if you're kind of pseudonymous arbiters of that but it seems to be more geared towards the like you know I'm a lawyer and I'm doing this but but for those use cases it may work well

yeah I mean I think that we're obviously not limiting our system to just real world people or anything like that but there there are you know real world known identities but I do see a use case there and I do think that some people will prefer to work on the network like that. And so, yeah, you're right. I mean, any way of bringing any kind of trust from another reputation system in and somehow applying that, I think, would be beneficial, especially for people that have worked very hard outside of Open Bazaar to build a reputation. I can see, like, for instance, maybe an eBay seller who has like this massive rating and he spent last 15 years building that, coming to OpenBazaar and becoming like a nobody

would probably kind of suck for them, right? They lose that. But finding ways of bringing other trust into the OpenBazaar network and kind of bootstrapping that trust would be really awesome. And I think, you know, for instance, BitRated, if they're able to be successful with that

and they start getting a lot of traction in that, you know, integrating that into OpenBazaar would be really cool. And I think it would be really beneficial to our users The one thing I was thinking about when reading about the arbitration, and Brian Fabiana, I want to get your thoughts on this, is to what extent could arbitration be, like, rely on some sort of a distributed consensus or voting mechanism for, I mean, maybe not for transactions where products are sold because you sort of have, it's different, right? but for certain types of transactions, it seems like a distributed voting mechanism could work for arbitrating conflicts.

Yeah, I don't know if this is exactly what you're alluding to, but we have actually Washington wrote a nice little description on GitHub about how this might work is make that third party actually like a voting pool. And so you could have, you know, let's say a hundred people that are part of an organization or that third party, and they could vote and somehow determine what that third party is going to do as a group. You could have some kind of voting mechanism there.

There's, you know, these are different things that could be built in. And I'm sure if we're able to succeed and, like, get, you know, get a lot of people using this system. They're going to start thinking about it in ways like that. and figure out how to expand that. We don't currently have any plans to implement that stuff right in the near term, but obviously all these things are like sitting there on a whiteboard to look at in the future. And I think that that would, you know. Yeah, I mean, it seems like there's a really nice and sort of obvious way of scaling for like different security needs, right?

So you can have, you can maybe have, you will have cheap arbiters and expensive arbutors, you know, ones with more reputation and more at stake, then maybe for the sort of, you know, use case of I'm ordering a book from someone and, you know, this costs $10 or something, you have someone very cheap and it's just one person. But then if something is expensive, of course, yeah, I mean, obviously you would want to have several arbiters, you know, most likely. Maybe you'd have three different arbiters and then a majority decide or five different arbiters and the majority decide that maybe you'd have certain levels that you'd

say are you willing to pay more because you want to have a high quality, you know? So it seems like totally nice. I mean, it reminds a lot of codeous, you know. It's the idea of oracles. And it's nice because it like scales super well, right? Then maybe you could have a first level of arbiters that are like cheaper and then if there's some dispute there could escalate to the next group of arbiters or something like that.

Yeah, and to extend on that, you know, coming back to the example a while ago, you could have like, just like for product shipping, you have like a base level arbitration for something that's maybe like a book under $10 would be like the DHL API saying. Exactly. Great point.

Yes. No, no, that's a great point. Exactly. Yeah, you could have the first level, could be totally automated. Could just be the tracking information. And then you're going to have the escalation. And maybe you would have it that the person who escalates

the next level, it then has to pay the arbitration fees, for example. So you have a disincentive to escalate. But yeah, I know. I think that's a great example, yeah. Yeah, I think it's really great. I mean, we've actually had discussions around this because, you know, just tossing around the idea of like, what, I mean, is one note or is one third party enough?

Like, does it, is the risk of collusion too high? we just have one notary, should we have a group of notaries, should we have this hierarchical kind of escalation service as you guys are describing? Like there's like a ton of ways to maybe look at this and approach it. And the beauty of what we're trying to build is that nobody is limited to that, right? So it's not like we're going to come out and say this is the one way you have to do it. People could craft open bazaar compliant clients that do some of the things you're doing. like if they want to build some really robust network on top of Open Bazaar, they could do so.

And so, you know, these are all things that we want to look at. If, you know, as soon as I'm sure Washington sees this and some of the other guys on the team, they're going to go nuts and we're going to be down a rabbit hole trying to figure out how to do what you guys are suggesting and other ideas. So, I mean, but that's one of the really great things about this project. is that people from all over the world are coming flying in and proposing like these what you would think of crazy ideas, but they're totally implementable with what we're doing. I mean, it could easily be done.

Well, not easily, but it can be done. It's just up to us to kind of think about, you know, how it should be done. And since we haven't really released, we don't know how people are going to want to use it yet. Our strategy is to stay simple and then expand from there. but the future is so bright, I think, for these kinds of technologies. Yeah, absolutely. So moving on a little bit to this sort of bigger picture, I mean, we have been talking about it to some extent.

But so one of the things that I've been sort of trying to wrap my head around, and then Sebastian, so you also put that in kind of in one of the questions, right, is this a platform or protocol, right? obviously it's like a protocol but then the question is so let's say i i was a startup an entrepreneur and i i wanted to say like i want to compete with ebay so i want to create a for-profit company and i want to make money with that hopefully and i want to provide a service that you know competes with eBay or maybe a maybe just a buy-it-now version of e-be if had an auction it doesn't really matter um now how would you go about that would you

fork the project and maybe put in some fees that go to a central party and then write a client to distribute or what would you approach be there and how do you see that playing out? So I think that that's a pretty complex question to answer, right? It depends on very much on the type of business you'd want to build. But if we go with the eBay example that you're proposing, so we hope. to have to develop a Ricardian contract structure that would support an auction type service. And so that means that, you know, clients on the OpenBazaar network that can handle an auction style recording contract would most likely respond in that way.

So, like, you could essentially check for peers that support that and they all talk to each other over the Open Bazaar protocol. But basically what would happen is you don't need to fork the code. What we're going to do is the main code will have an API that does a lot of like the fundamental network stuff, like being able to push contracts to the network and talk to peers and do those types of things. And you could just build an app. You could be a centralized app, a distributed, a decentralized app. It could be a mobile app, whatever.

It just would need to talk to that client. the API and that's how you would interface with other people on the network. So if you're going to build an eBay, you know, you could essentially just build a, you know, a centralized website just like eBay, where people go and sign up and do all that stuff and they create contracts on your system. You would just broadcast your OpenBazaar contracts via the API to other peers and they could talk that way. you know in terms of forking the code I think really the only time you really need to fork the code is if you plan on doing

something beyond what we're trying to do like for instance if you were going to build like you mentioned before like a dark net market place and you really need to add in some kind of an anonymity layer like tour or something like that then maybe that would be reason to take our code and fork it and extend it in a way that we aren't working on or aren't planning on supporting. Yeah, I wanted to ask about that. So that seems also like an obvious use case, right? The dark market is, I mean, I think you pointed it out really greatly in the beginning, right?

So dark markets, obviously, there's been all this criticism and not surprising. I mean, obviously people do all kinds of illegal things on them. But at the same time, you can also say this is such a powerful example. for the power of cryptocurrency. It's just something that you can't do otherwise. And it's something that there's obviously a huge potential demand for it, and whatever one thinks of that. And now it's, but at the same time, the big flaw is, they're centralized, right?

So there's all kinds of scams or they get arrested or things like that. And then here, once Open Bazaar is running, like you could replace those, right? so you could at least get rid of that centralization, so you could get rid of the scams, or at least these high-level scams, maybe there would be scams between people, but that's the whole point of reputation to prevent that and arbitration. So, but couldn't, wouldn't it just be possible that, for example, I would be using Tor, and then you could just use OpenBazaar like that? Why would you have to go a step further and you have to build Tor into the protocol itself?

Well, for one thing, I mean, the peer-to-peer network that we've built is, at present, this is going to get a little technical, I guess, but I don't know any other way to get around it. But essentially, our network, the way that it communicates supports Tor, currently. Like, you could run it over Tor. People have run OpenBazaar nodes on Tor. one issue with that is that any nodes on tour essentially aren't talking with nodes that aren't on tour and so it's not like I can be on the network as a non-tore person and you can be on the network as a tour user

because they're separated networks but the bigger issue is that in our next release we're going to be moving to a type of peer-to-peer network communication that doesn't support Tor. If you don't know the tour the way it works is when you request something, it goes into the Tor system, it goes to that destination, and then when it comes, it has to somehow come back because of the routing that it does. So you have to use something called TCP-type connections.

Our newest update is going to be UDP, which is basically the traffic just goes one way, and it doesn't create a connection where it can come back, and therefore Tor is not going to be supported out of the box. That's not to say that we couldn't use something different like iTunes, which does support UDP-based communication, but it won't be as easy. And we don't really have it in our roadmap at this time because implementing that in the near term is, we feel like it's something that we can add on later and support, much like I think what Bitcoin did, just added on later, after we've solved a lot of the bigger challenges, the more pressing challenges.

is like actually functioning transactions, the client software, getting it to work on all these different operating systems, things like that, like fundamental experience, we feel like it's way more important to nail down before we worry about securing its usage onto the dark net for a very small percentage of our potential users. Is that also, I mean, it seems like another way of looking at this, and perhaps it's actually made a good way or a big advantage of this for you guys is when you don't support Torp because then you know the people who want to run those dark nets and obviously that's going to happen you know they will actually have to afford to code and they will have to run a fork of

open basar not open bazaar itself right so like i mean for you guys it provides a level of protection there right they can say like well we will we support is those legal use cases now there are people doing that but you know those are different people that forked the project it's you know this is not this is not the project we are on so it seems like there's a great advantage for you guys in this way yeah i mean that's one of the fundamental um moral issues with working on this project i think for and then that goes for a lot of the developers that we've had come in and out of the project is that uh the it's potential use and like who's going to be using it uh is it's up for debate right now we don't know since we haven't released we don't know

if we're going to get a wave of legitimate users or if we're just going to get overrun by people trying to do to replicate Silk Road. And it doesn't help that like every article that comes out about Silk Road, it's like the first comment is like, well, I can't wait until Open Bazaar is out because I don't have to worry about Silk Road. And that's not really what we're building. I mean, yes, this concept, this idea could enable that. but it's just one example of how it could be used you know albeit a very highly visible one and one that comes to the forefront of everybody's mind as soon as you bring it up but I think that we're going to be fighting that

perception for a long time to come and we're doing our best but like you said by not supporting that I think it's going and we very much encourage people to read through the code and understand the documentation where it says this is not a secure, anonymous, you know, hiding ground for you to sell stuff. It's just not, even if we were doing that, it's nowhere clear, it's nowhere close to ready to support that kind of activity. It hasn't been audited or anything like that. And so you cannot trust it to do that kind of

activity. And so I think if you were trying to do that, you'd either need to fork it and do all those things so that you can trust it or you're just insane because it would be a really bad place to do that. I just don't think that people realize that they think that they're just going to download it and go off their on their way selling illegal items and they're going to be really disappointing when they track them down in like two seconds because right now the software just doesn't support that that use. Cool well I just wanted to circle back briefly because I sort of jumped ahead. I wanted to ask about this the UI question again and that's a point where I'm a tiny bit like still confused, maybe before we go into the use cases.

So to what extent will, if you have different clients, or bizarre clients, to what extent are they interoperable, right? Because I mean, an open contract in principle, it seems like any client could read any contract and sign any contract, but then at the same time, it seems like there should be this obvious tendency towards a specialization, right? So you would have maybe a site for use furniture. You'd have a site for, I don't know, some sort of, I don't know, book selling site

or like some eBay type site, etc., etc. So how will this work? Because does that mean that to some extent on a client level, you will filter the contracts that come in and only show? that there's sort of the relevant contracts with this kind of application when a person looks for a product in that client? How would that work? So, I mean, I don't think that we've fully fleshed out exactly how that's going to look

in the end. But the way I can imagine that it will at least start to look like is once we release the main client and the API. it will support a single basic use case, which is just selling items, right? Like selling a direct sell of an item to a person with three parties. And so that contract structure will be completed. The client will support that and everything. And so I think that the first round of apps that are kind of built on top of OpenBazaar

will be more of like maybe listing aggregation service. So for instance, there's someone already out there who's, who started to build a site it's called bazaar bay.org. You can go to that site and Yeah, I saw that, yeah. And you can see his app basically crawls the open bazaar network for contracts,

looks to do all the stores, and then he can provide a centralized website where you can go and see all those listings and search to them. And so people can provide additional services on top of the open bazaar network by doing extra filtering or like perhaps they only list contracts that are related to wooden spoons.

You know, they could have a wooden spoons emporium and all their contracts are just filtering that out, right? So, and they would have a lot more control over that. They could provide all kinds of different value. And so it's sort of like the Pirate Bay, how it's a centralized service that basically helps the BitTorrent community, right? Like find items on the network. So that's kind of like that first wave of apps I think we're going to be like, that. And then there's other people that are building tools for like scanning the network and

things like that. So that initially will be probably about the extent of what we see on top of it. The next wave will be where people are able to create new e-commerce workflows. So that's where auctions and peer-to-peer lending and things like that will come in. So for instance, you wanted to build a peer-to-peer lending service on top of Open Bazaar. You could create a new recording contract that supports that, you could publish that that contract standard and it basically would outline the workflow, like how that would work, like how many parties are involved, what are the different stages of the transaction, and then other clients could build, they could build it into their app as well, and then you guys could all intercommunicate

over the same peer to peer network. So the details are not really like fully hashed out, but we're starting to like, you know, figure out how that would work. And we'll probably have a lot more to talk about that in the next few months when we get closer to release in our first full version. Right. So coming back to sort of these use cases. And when I mean talking about use cases, I mean, I'm thinking about it in a very long-term way and extrapolating.

So the technology gets, you know, used and adopted. And then to what extent? would so the examples we talking about so far are pretty basic examples of maybe like peer to peer like person to person or small business to person but to what extent could large merchants

like I don't know Amazon or Walmart or even product manufacturers like you know it could be Logitech or it could be some book publisher utilize

like what incentive would they have to utilize a technology like OpenBazaar, rather than distributing their products on Amazon or through merchants like Walmart or large stores. So I think for them, a lot of these large organizations already have a huge customer support type network to kind of help ease any issues there are with the product. So they might not be as incentive,

to jump on Open Bazaar at first, but, you know, because they could essentially just start doing Bitcoin transactions right and save fees and not have to deal with credit card companies or whatever. I think this is way more beneficial, at least at first in our eyes, for, like you said, smaller merchants and users because, you know, there are people that you would consider a small business that run like an easy. eBay store or an Etsy store or whatever that are making a million dollars a year, right? Like selling items.

And they're still paying 10 to 13% to eBay on every transaction. They're getting mad chargebacks from credit cards. They're getting, they have to deal with PayPal, which right there is incentive enough to just find something else to use. And they're just looking for something like this to help them lower that cost, which they can in turn hopefully give back to their users because I don't know about you but I've looked at all kinds of different listings on eBay and stuff and usually the prices are jacked up because of those fees or their shipping is exorbitant because they have to work that overhead in somehow

to make enough money to survive and when you come into a system like OpenBazaar now you're suddenly only paying for what you really need to pay for which is if I have an issue with my transaction, then, only then am I going to pay fees for this arbitration? Like, why should I subsidize the arbitration across the entire platform if I don't need it? And that's kind of the model that eBay works across is they spread those costs out to every user. And they also pay for a lot of the stuff that allows them to be more centralized. So I think, you know, in terms of large businesses, I don't know if they'll find it valuable. Ideologically, there are

some businesses that are larger and might do it just because they want to hop on the decentralization wagon and kind of get away from the traditional model. But, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think it's

probably going to take a lot more traction for our network to get off the ground and really prove itself before big players come in and decide to use it. So before we wrap it, up we'd like to talk about the organization so how does that work currently right because you guys did not choose the path that many have chosen of creating your own coin and doing that that sort of thing so how are you currently funding

development and what are there the plans going forward are you planning to monetize it in some way or are you planning to turn this into some kind of foundation I can't tell you exactly what our plans are because we don't know exactly what they will be for sure yet. You know, we obviously know that we're not going to be able to get as much done if we're just operating at our current level, which is just, it's a side, it's a side project for everybody involved. So at some point, we'll probably have to think about, you know, a way to fund it in a more organized manner. And whether that is going to be an open, you know, an open, you know, an open, you know, a way to fund it in a more organized manner. And whether that's going to be an open, you know, foundation or like some kind of commercial corporation kind of way of of organizing i i don't know yet

our we do know however that the core open bazaar protocol and network is going to remain open and mit licensed and uh stay on github and it will be free for everybody to to use and look through that that's that's paramount to our our project and will always remain that way for the entirety of it now how we fund it, that hasn't been decided. We do know that we don't like to do the coin aspect and we don't, we have stayed away from crowdfunding so far because we feel as a community that we would not like to ask too much of our users until we actually have something that's working really well and that they find value with. I don't like some of this like Kickstarter campaigns where somebody, you know, they rake in all this month.

and then two years later they haven't really delivered anything. We don't want to be able to have a lot of experiences with that. Yeah, exactly. And it sucks. It really disenfranchises your users and it kind of blows your reputation. So, you know, we're taking hits on different sites because some people think we haven't moved fast enough or come out with like a working app yet. But you have to understand that like all these guys on the project are working, you know, until three,

four in the morning after they come home from their day jobs to work on this and it's every night and whether you can see it obviously or not we we pour a lot of our lives and energy into it the project and we don't plan on going away anytime soon and hopefully in the very near future we'll have something really exciting to show the community and everybody will be really happy and they won't have paid a dime for it yeah and those people can just roll up their sleeves and get the work if they're not happy. Yeah. No, cool.

I think that's a really, a really admirable position to have. And yeah, no, I think that's fantastic. So I just, before we wrap up, how many people

are actively contributing to this project? So, I can't remember what the full account is right now. Active, serious developers,

we probably have about a dozen to 20 people. But we've had, I think, almost 200 different contributors on our GitHub repository. I think I saw some statistics recently that said that we're one of the largest Python projects on GitHub just based on different contributors coming in and actually pushing code to our repository.

So it's been overwhelming. Unfortunately, a lot of times you suffer from too many cooks in the kitchen syndrome. and so we're trying really hard to make sure that people are, you know, super, oh, you got 75 contributors on the main branch, and we got like 325 forks. You see that up there, and I mean, that's a lot of people. If you look at other repositories, it's pretty up there. Yeah, and I want to encourage everybody to go to your,

so I'm looking at the GitHub page right now for those of you listening. I want to encourage everybody to go to this, to their GitHub repo. We'll have the link in the show notes. And contribute if you can. Donate, of course, if you can. And also, this theory work by Dr. Washington-Sanchez, who you mentioned earlier,

is just really, really interesting. So there are some articles there on Ricardian contracts, on the voting pools, which you mentioned as well. And just really, really interesting white papers that I encourage everybody to read. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, and we also, you know, another big reason why some people think it can be a quiet community times is because we have, we actually have a Slack organization. So if you're not familiar with Slack, it's like an online collaboration tool. And anybody's free to join up. If you get in touch with us, we can get you in there. We try to keep it as focused on people who are really contributing to the project, but it's still open. And a lot of activity in there talking about ways of. of doing decentralized Bitcoin exchange, building a reputation systems. Actually, the guy I mentioned before that created Recardian contracts, Ian Grigg,

he actually is working with us closely in there on trust and reputation stuff as well. And so there's a lot of exciting talk going on in there that you just can't see from the outside really easily, but there's a lot, a lot going on. Fantastic. Maybe the last question. What's the timeline here? by what time do you expect that we will have a client that's actually ready so people who start maybe purchasing, selling things on Open Bazaar?

So right now, the thing that's holding up our next release is there's two issues. One is our peer-to-peer network, since I mentioned before that we're switching from TCP-based network to a UDP-based network, which is, it's really complex under this scenes and we want like one of the biggest gripes with our software has been uh connectivity so if you're behind any kind of a firewall or you're on a corporate network or school network or your home router is it's kind of crappy like it makes it hard to do peer to peer communication um it's not like a regular website and so we're trying to solve as many of those issues as possible so that as many people as possible can can use it and um and we want to make sure that that's working really well

before we release. In terms of a timeline, if tonight a breakthrough comes through, you know, it could be next week. But, you know, it just, like I said, because we don't have full-time employees working on this stuff, it kind of, the development push ebbs and flows, and it just depends on when we can get it out the door. So another good reason not to take funding. We don't have to meet any deadlines, but we're hoping very soon.

cool fantastic and yeah we'll have links to the project as well and the blog there's there's quite a few resources also there's a reddit open bizarre reddit we'll have all of those in the show notes um well thanks so much for coming and joining us today brown hey thanks so much for having me it was great i really enjoyed this discussion and i think this is this is definitely a project that's going to be extremely interesting to watch and probably very controversial very controversial yes and I just

yeah I mean I was mentioning that to say I was saying before I think in terms of sort of revolutionary potential I know this is pretty like I mean this is very much up there with what we've had on the show I mean okay maybe Ethereum you could say similar maybe some of the other projects as well

but like this is yeah it's absolutely huge you know and I think it could be absolutely huge and I can't wait to see where this goes. Well, thanks a lot. Yeah, we really think, we hope so too. That's why we're working on it.

Well, yeah, thanks so much for joining us today. And for listener, thanks for listening to the podcast or watching your podcast. If you want to support the show, there's a few things you can do. You can follow us on Twitter. We're at Epicenter at BPC. You can also leave us an iTunes through if you listen to the show to iTunes or otherwise if you have an iTunes account that helps new people find the show. you can donate to us, maybe with the shapeship lens, give us your dochecoin, we take it to miss Bitcoin

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