Epicenter - Learn about Crypto, Blockchain, Ethereum, Bitcoin and Distributed Technologies - Chun Wang: stakefish – From Proof-of-Work to Proof-of-Stake

Episode Date: May 13, 2022

Chun Wang started mining Bitcoin in 2011 and later created F2Pool, one of the leading Proof-of-Work mining pools. Despite his deep involvement in Proof-of-Work, Chun also recognized the transformative impact of Proof-of-Stake and started stakefish. stakefish has become one of the leading staking provider.Chun joined us to talk about his journey and reflections on Bitcoin, Ethereum and Proof-of-Stake. We also dove into the topic of humans becoming a multi-planetary species and whether Bitcoin's consensus could be modified to allow mining on different planets.Topics covered in this episode:Chun's background and how he got into cryptoWhy he created the mining pool F2PoolThe biggest differences between running validators like stakefish vs a mining pool like F2PoolWhat led him to build stakefishChun's views on EthereumWhy Bitcoin is more decentralized than EthereumThe future of Proof-of-StakeStakefish's Ethereum staking productChun's thoughts of MEV and how will stakefish deal with it in the futureMaking Bitcoin multiplanetaryEpisode links: stakefishF2Poolstakefish on TwitterChun on TwitterSponsors: Gnosis Safe: Gnosis Safe is a smart wallet for securely managing digital assets and allows you to define customized access permissions. - https://epicenter.rocks/gnosissafeTally Ho: Tally Ho is a new wallet for Web3 and DeFi that sees the wallet as a public good. Think of it like a community-owned alternative to MetaMask. - https://epicenter.rocks/tallycashSteakwallet: Steakwallet is your new favorite multi-chain, mobile wallet. Tired of having a different wallet for every chain? Get Steakwallet today and get the power of Web 3 across all chains right at your fingertips: https://steakwallet.fi/ -This episode is hosted by Brian Fabian Crain. Show notes and listening options: epicenter.tv/443

Welcome to Ep Center, the show which talks about the technologies, projects, and people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. I'm Brian Crane. And today I'm speaking with Chun Wang. He is the founder and CEO of Steakfish. Stakefish is one of the leading proof of state companies and validators. He's also the founder of a company called F2Poo, which is one of the biggest Bitcoin mining pools still today and has been for a long time. So it's kind of very unique in having been both part of this, you know, running proof of work infrastructure as well as proof of stake infrastructure. So really excited to speak. We've shown wrong about this. So just before we get started, a few words from our sponsors. So first of all, we have the Gnosis Safe. So the Gnosis Safe is a smart wallet that allows you to control digital assets with much more granular permissions. You can use multiple private keys and use just a subset to approve transactions.

They can be stored in different devices, software, hardware wallets, even across multiple people. So it's become the most trusted Web3 asset management solution for individuals, teams, and DALs, and it's more than $70 billion worth of digital assets, you know, secured with the Gnosis safe. And then we also have Tally Ho. So Tally Ho is redefining the wallet as a public good. So you can think of it as a community-owned alternative to Metamask. and it's a fully, yeah, fully community owned and operated, and it's a sort of the first wallet that's also a doll.

And their commitment to community ownership goes beyond just a wallet. So they also sponsor EtherJS and Open Source JavaScript Library, and they also committed 2.5% of their tokens to a Gitcoin aqueduct. So you can go to Talleyho, that's T-A-L-L-H-O-Cash, and try out the community edition and play a play rhyme with its features. And then finally, we have stake wallet. So stake wallet is in your new favorite mobile wallet. As you can deduct from the name and kind of related to our conversation today, they're especially focusing on providing a great user experience for staking that's kind

of unified across chains. And in just a few tabs, you can stake and manage assets across 22 built-in protocols, including all the major EVMs, L2s, and chains like Cosmos, Salana, near and more. And they've also started adding some other things in there like liquid, Avax, Solana and Matick staking and lots more things coming. And they also have multi-chain NFD support now. So you can go and download Steak Wallet on iOS or Android. Now steak is spelled like the meat you eat, not like the thing normally people do staking, so S-T-E-A-K, or you go to website stakewallet.fI. And with that, let's get through a conversation. June, thanks so much for joining us today. So tell us, first of all, where are you calling in from?

Yeah, I'm from Longerbin, Swarabard, it's Arctic Island. And, yeah, it's weather is great. And I just have to close my curtain because it's super bright, but it's a great view outside. We have about 24 hours, sun, and it's wonderful living here. So, you, because I was reading and earning that, like, you know, you're traveling across the world and have been doing it for a while, but are you now settled in this Arctic island up there? I'm trying to settle everywhere, but maybe, yeah, it's quite a, you know, strong preference. Like, if I ever settle down, I've probably a strong considerate. settle down here. So what attracts you about this?

Because I have never heard anyone say like, okay, I would really like to settle down on like some tiny remote island near the Arctic. Yeah, that's the second best place on the earth. And only after Antarctica. Because a few dozen countries are signing the Tritist of 1960s, which forbids people. living Antarctica. So yeah, if, let's make the Swerber's the, you know, the best practical place. If you value, you know, political neutral, and you should definitely try this out.

So it's because it, but it's not its own country, right? You said it was part of Norway? Yes, it's part of Norway, but there's a strategy system signed in 1925, which allowed people from order. nationalities, they must be treated as same as Norwegians. You don't need a visa, you don't need work visa to, you know, just come and, yeah, you can do like local Norwegians. I must say there's no local people here because it's not allowed to get born here, so everyone is coming from elsewhere. And how many people live up there? Here in town, like more than 2,000 people, something maybe 2,500. Okay, so it's just like tiny, tiny bunch of sort of eccentric people who like ended up

there, like what kind of people are staying there? Yeah, it's not tiny anymore. It's more than 2,000 people quite a sizable town. Yesterday I made in here, like, where Russians, Ukrainians, they're living peaceful together. That town has currently, they have a little bit more than 200 people. and it's about 50 kilometers away from here. Yeah, compared to that, Longerbians quite big, I want to say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so actually, I kind of want to come back to something related, I guess, later in the episodes, because you talked about, like, space travel. But let's go back and start a little bit in beginning. You've been involved in crypto for like a long time. Can you tell us, like, what inspired you initially? Like, how did you get involved in the crypto space? Initially, I was a contributor to a SETI at Home, which was using radio telescopes,

collect signals trying to find aliens from a signal received by radio telescopes. And by doing that, you contribute your computing power from your personal computer spare time. And one day I read about Bitcoin from Slashdot and I learned about it using one night. And I left my laptop running Bitcoin full node trying to mine something out. But second morning, it turned out zero balance on my wallet. So I went to a local market, grabbed to GPUs. That was year 2011. I never stopped, you know, technically the miner, but I only personally mine Bitcoin in the first

or two years personally, like, you know, using GPUs later FPJA6. But I stopped mining myself in 2013, but started mining pool and people contribute mining powers for the mining pool. Basically, I'm running the server side. It depends how you defined Bitcoin mining. If you're using a strict definition, I'm no longer a miner. So what was your kind of idea? What was your vision for F2 pool? Where did you want to take it?

I think, you know, just to say the latest development, we all know like Bitcoin, sorry, Ethereum, I'm going to change to POS pretty soon. We don't know one, but I think it's probably as a matter of, once. So after that, we'll only see how many coins we have. Currently, actually, we have 20 different coins, you know, but there's a very few innovations and development of the POW side. So basically, I think after Etherm become a POS, basically we are F2POO become a Bitcoin company. So if I foresee anything at the P2POS side, I think, yeah, we'll almost, become a pure Bitcoin company in the next year.

Now that you've been involved in PROS as well at proof of work, I'm curious, like, when you compare proof of work and mining pool versus the proof of stake validators, what are the biggest differences between those two? To me, actually, is quite similar. But a lot of other team members, they probably have other idea, but to me it's a very, very same thing. Just secure the blockchain, create new blogs, you know, especially on Ethereum. Ethereum will be found currently is running POW and Apatopu takes the responsibility to secure Ethereum network.

Later on, Etheren become POS. It's a stay fish in charge of this. So what we're doing, like Apatouple and Stafi is very similar and kind of the same thing. Right. Right. But like there are obviously differences. So I'm curious, like, what do you think of the most important differences? Sort of, in terms of, like, running it as a company and like, yeah. A difference, I think that's a little bit matching to the details.

Like, you know, how you handle minors, how they handle incoming hash rate, and how you handle, like, validators. Miners, at least you know some where they're from because you have the IP address. But steakfish, you have absolutely no idea of who your stakers they are. So, yeah, in terms of a product, the design, I think there for sure there's some differences. But for me, like, I try to like see them as similar way. I try to like see more the, you know, what, you know, the shirt, you know, know, what the similarity, like, they share rather than the different from each other.

There are probably some chance, like, later you see, like, the two companies, maybe they work very closely together. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that is the big similarity, right? It's okay, you're, like, checking transactions, producing your block, like securing the chain, right? So there's a lot of those similarities, but I'm kind of like. You connect to other P2P network and you join the governance. Let's talk about steakfish, right? So I remember, you know, in, I guess, you know,

because I used to be part of the Tendeman team and then I started course one, right? So I was part of the game of steaks back then, right? The cosmos, original cosmos test net. And then you guys were, steakfish was like very active in there. I was doing like an excellent job, you know, could tell that like, okay, these people already have, came with a whole bunch of experience that I think others didn't have. But tell us a little bit, like, how did you start?

Statefish? Like, what was the initial? I must say, I was pre-washed by Eastern people back then. When they're signing like POS. That was year 2017. And Aputu had been like operated since 2013. And basically we are two-person business. My partner, like, take care of a customer support.

My minor relationship, this kind of talk to minors. And I just are running the servers. And I have two-people business. Yeah, two-person business. Until 2016, we have a third guy joined us in October 2016. And since they, we started to consider to make a two-person small business. like a real company. So we started to hire people in 2017. And by mid-2017, we started to have about 10 people working in a small office. Actually, in the beginning, I didn't want to do this in China.

So, but the other two people, they have a pretty strong preference. I already moved to Thailand in 2015, so I rarely visit office in Beijing. You know, so one day my partner told me that we're going to move to a bigger office because there too many people there. And his wife says, let's just move the office to a secret place without telling me. So that's what happened. And yeah, so I started feeling like, yeah, I don't have to spend that much time like a handle every day pay out, you know, maintain the servers.

So I started to think about something else. Actually, the second half of 2017, I gave myself a kind of a vocation of a few months. And there's also a time like Bitcoin, like Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Deerment, Bitcoin, Bitcoin, that. And I was thinking what's next. So I got some talk with different people. And yeah, so. not of them selling me a staking, staking pool.

So I started to think about something like staking related. But meanwhile, I got a new domain name. I suggested my partner at Aptopoo. Maybe, yeah, I just secure domain name that you wanted for long, you know. And maybe you can do something using this domain. So I didn't know what to do with that domain. But yeah, so just a half got domain name. to find some good use of it.

So that was spit off fish. And yeah, so we started something. It's a bit of fish. And in Bangkok, we got an office. And even though I didn't know what to do, I invested like how much, maybe 10 million Thai bat and just to decorate the office.

So fortunately, we got a few interesting people joined us in the beginning. So that's how stay fished. Yeah. we figure out to do staking and rename from bitfish to steak fish later, I think, in 2019. So that's how we started because I think mostly we started from nothing. We started starting from no idea, I must say, yeah. Just got furthering this, doing something.

Yeah, so, yeah. But now we know like state fish here, you know. I think that's also have a lot of complaints, like what I use. to be like doing Bitcoin, doing mining, and for State Fish, we're doing similar things to Ethereum and the POW, combined with POIS, we kind of secure the Bitcoin infrastructure with good things. You know, I think that's super important to the ecosystem, because they're going to be eventually someone to talk to the P2B network to create new

blocks. And with those people like doing this, the blockchain is just simply stuck. If you see, we've got developers, they write full node, but our role is much like DevOps. We run infrastructures. So to make a system going, just need developers, also need people to maintain the infrastructure. And then so you guys were working on the cosmos test nets. Was that your first network where you guys went live? Yes, Cosmos was first a network because they kind of early in the staking. And despite people talking about Ethereum these days,

it seems like Ethereum become just tomorrow. But we still have no idea why it becomes pure as when it's getting merged. Yeah, I'm curious with Ethereum, like, I mean, a lot of people, right, have, you know, in the last years, right, we've had a lot of other layer ones come up, We had Solana, Cosmos, so, you know, Cosmos, I guess, maybe many later ones, depending how we look at it, you know, PolkaDath, near, and many others. Now, you seem to be, like, very Ethereum focus, no. I'm curious. I'm Bitcoin focus.

You're Bitcoin focus. Yes. Because I heard you in an audience, I heard you, I listened to this interview with the stake in wars, guys. And in there, you basically were like, oh, once Ethereum is your proof of stake. that like that's that's that's like the most important thing and yeah how do you think about that how do you think about the role of ethereum and like the competition from other layer ones i think it's room is still i have the best team to be honest and uh what you mentioned previously i think at least in short time this is probably no one can't treasured his

same position also like you know when people are talking of philippe i don't think even like Ethereum one day once it's valuations there might be a chance like Ethereum could challenge Bitcoin in terms of valuation, but I think there's no chance of Etherment Bitcoin in terms of decentralization

and in terms of the people like accepted. Yeah. Investing what you mentioned, Solana near just like to me is similar to like

investing in a new startup company. But invests in Bitcoin, it's like invests in, you know, in freedom in the future. And that's have a fundamental difference. When you talk about decentralization of like Bitcoin versus Ethereum, what do you think are the things that make Bitcoin like fundamentally more decentralized? It's because how they work. Ethereum, you know, it's kind of, its packages have been like much, much, much, better compared to a few years ago, it's still like, have a central, I must say, still have a

centralized planning. And one, you know, the dedications, uh, how decision making and how it's the, you know, the everything is organized. Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess you're wearing, right, the UASF hat, right? Now, probably most listeners will not remember this because this is many years ago, right? But there was the, so this, I have stands for right, user. activated software, which was the big debate there was in Bitcoin, where some people wanted to increase the block size. Then they were like, okay, look, we need more throughput, we need more space. And others were basically against this. And I think, well, there was a lot of different arguments used. But then we have another debate going on. That's a BIPFa and I. And rather than

UASF, people started to talk about URSF and that's the opposite side of UASF, but I think the philosophy is kind of similar. When you think about like the future of proof of stake, do you think like proof of stake is kind of pretty established in how it works? So do you think we're going to see a lot of changes in innovation and new types of staking mechanisms and protocols? Yeah, for sure. But once again, I think all this is, you know, it's startup companies. And there's a hundred, maybe a thousand reasons a startup company go wrong, such like what you happen, what you see, what happened to Solana, you know. I think there was some, you know, a lot of headache to keep the network going. And maybe, yeah, I think they have a chance like to get a problem fixed. But, you know, as I mentioned, you know, as I mentioned, like invest in an out coin and smaller coin to select invest in a startup company. For sure, like if you do it right,

you can get a reward maybe 100 times, 1,000 times, but things could go wrong. And there's 1,000 reasons things could go wrong. So when you think of like the future for steak, what are you think the kind of dimension in which things will change? I think for Statefactory probably have two kinds of systems going out.

continuously. One is we still, we'll keep running validators. We'll keep like, join the governance in good friends. And we'll operate as much networks, I mean, good reputation once as possible.

And I would say like, just to check our portfolio, like our website. And you can safely say like, you, you buy every coin we listed, on steakfish and you can expect good profit, good reward. And that's what we're doing, like trying to support all the good, reputed and good,

innovative coins in POS world. Actually, we were doing similar after-pooh for POW as well, but unfortunately, there's not much innovation in the state's POWS world. So we keep the delisting coins on F2Poo. Currently, we still have 21 coins, include the merchant money ones. But I think maybe there are only a very much delist the listing new ones. POS still have a lot of innovations. I'm not sure if the real bear market coming,

whatever happened, what kind of impact to the ecosystem. But I think, yeah, I see. still like it packed a lot of innovations in POS and in layer one. What kind of innovation do you expect? If you ask me, I don't think innovation layer one is good idea, you know. Just like what I'm using like iPhone and some other people use Android. Just think about this. If someone started an entire new mobile operating system, such like Microsoft Windows mobile

previously even even Microsoft cannot do as well you know we have a Ethereum we have Bitcoin kind of have a you know entire ecosystem around this two major net network networks and if someone has started something new then you have to start the complete new ecosystem around it you can imagine how hard is to do it but do you see do you see when you think of like steakfish in the future do you think like, okay, it's basically like, you know, running validators for different chains, you know, participating in governance. Like if you project like five years from now, 10 years from now, what do you think?

I guess that will still be there, right? Probably we still have proof of stake chains. They will still need, like, people who like run nodes, verify the transactions, create the blocks. They'll need people to do governance. But what changes? I did measure Ethereum. Issyram not part of this.

Ethereum, we kind of separate editing products around Ethereum. We probably invest more than half of our effort only on Ethereum. You probably the new Ethereum started a staking service after a few months

and with steakfish. Yeah, I have heard of that. So tell us about this Ethereum staking service. What does it look like? I think we'll probably do it compared to other competitors. I don't see them as competitors because they are doing it differently.

We won't repeat what other people doing. Lido has become a monopoly this day is in the Ethereum Staking Service. It's not healthy to the ecosystem. But what we are doing is doing infrastructure level things. We'll probably do something a lot more like a lower level. And if you want to have ownership for your own regulators, and maybe you can check it out. So yeah, let's say if I'm someone who has EF and I want a steak,

I could go to LIDO, right? I could put it there. But for whom would steakfish product be better? Because we are running a lower level. You can have to take ownership to your own value. And what Lido doing is a kind of finance product. But what we're doing is probably the infrastructure, it's much like you buy a cloud server.

and you can run whatever application on it. We are kind of setting you a server, a product, kind of a platform. Lido what's doing is they offer a finance product. They're trying to tokenize it's from sticking and give you a good profit, good API. It's totally different. Yeah, okay. But do you, I mean, right now, right, we're seeing Lido having, you know, enormous growth. do you think this is going to

because your product is not a liquid-saking product, right? Like you don't have a tokenized. Not tokenized today. It doesn't mean like we won't tokenized tomorrow. I don't think like our token represent a editor probably something useful to the service.

Do you think like when we talk about Lido and liquid staking, do you think Lido's market share is going to keep going up or do you think that more people after the merge will stake maybe running their own validators or like a product like yours? I cannot make predictions for Lido what they perform. We have a pretty close relationship. We are like more of five funding infrastructure providers to Lido.

We still support them very well. But I think what we're going to do is a complete. different layer of things. We are not competitors. We kind of just provide different solutions to the same thing. One thing I'd also love to talk a little bit about, which seems to be something that could change proof of stake a lot, which is MEV. What do you thoughts on MEV? And like, how do you think steakfish will deal with MEV in the future? I think it's completely, separate, you know, this, you can write, you know, entire book, like just talk about this topic.

But the thing is, at Apatopo, we already doing this. We already doing it for almost a year. I think maybe you can reuse the expertise gained from Apatopo and try to see, like, what kind of difference. And I think mostly, mostly is kind of similar. I want it to apply to staking, just the underlying consensus changed. But I think you're right. M.EV is critical to as a violator. And if you want to do staking well, then you cannot ignore M.EV.

Yeah. I guess maybe I should add a few words to our listeners who may not be that familiar with MEP. Actually, we did do a podcast like a few weeks back, me and Felix, also from course one, we talked about MEP a bit more detail. on a high level right, it's basically because the validator can decide on the order of transactions in the block, and there's value in that order, right? So there's sort of value extractable. I can share with you guys. Today, after pool, actually, Ethereum takes 80% of after full profit. The reason is because of my EVV. When Ethereum become a POS, I'm not sure like if EPSO could stay,

who survive or not so okay so 80% of profits are I have to prove from MEPE and do you guys just run yeah yeah for me too and do you guys just run

flashbots there or do you guys do something else there's a different solutions but lately we changed back those flashbots and so did you also like develop some of your own things and then

yes how do you think this is going to play out even after the merge, do you think something like flashbots is just going to be adopted by, you know, like everyone or, you know, a lot of different validators will have their own solutions? Yeah. I think flashbots have a great team, so we definitely like to support flashbots. But there should be some space, you know, this big market. I think We always welcome to new competitors. Yeah, I think we also invest some time to do it in-house.

And of course, NEP is also like a controversial topic, right, where people will be like, oh, but this is like maybe bad for the chain, or maybe it causes like centralization. How do you think about that? How do you think about, you know, are there negative effects of MEP? and what do you think they are? I don't think to me it's not controversial at all because code is law.

If you believe code is law, then it's not controversial at all. Yeah, it's permitted by code. And yeah, why it's controversial? Why it's not good? Right. Although code is law, of course, even Ethereum, right? That, you know, you're like...

If you think every way is bad, then change the code. Right, right. Although, of course, that line is kind of, you know, even the Ethereum community, right? Like when it came to the dollar hack many years ago, then they were like, okay, now actually in this case, code isn't law. And you had this social consensus that made the change there and kind of reverted this. So I would say even in the, even in the crypto community, you know, like people hacking some smart contracts stealing funds, right? And they're like, well, that's a crime. That's not okay.

Yeah, that's a crime. That's a crime. But then you don't think the line is blurry because if you have something like a sandwich attack, like you make some trade and then I'm basically sort of like doing something that results in you getting a worse outcome. Now, okay, maybe not a crime. But I mean, I kind of agree, right? In the end, you can say with MEP, if you assume that people, you know,

are just going to basically kind of run an algorithm, right, that maximizes the profits of each block. And then it's the job of like whoever's building the application on top to like build an application so that the users of the application don't like lose money knowing that the validators are going to kind of run this maximizing function over it. Like that kind of makes sense, I think. Yeah. And this law is not kind of absolute because there's a lot of law in this world. Some law, there are good law. Some laws are not good. Like get to COVID tests every day is also the law, you know. But legal and legitimate is different. Something, you know, it's legal, but it doesn't mean like, you know, you should like, it's legitimate. just like in Afghanistan, you have to get masks. And in other countries, you know,

but I think like there's something universal, and I kind of, you know, not just blindly to just follow what we told to. We kind of need to always challenge this good, good law or this is bad law. You know, there are always a bad law, bad law and like, you know, bad code. Sometimes, you know, programmers, they write, you know, they write code, which has the bugs.

It's just been like, there's also law, you know, but that probably is a bad law. Bad luck could happen. There's some discussion, I think, in Ethereum, knowing, like separating the role of whoever kind of creates the block with the one who then. kind of validates the block. And can you maybe explain that? Like, what's the thinking behind this? And what are your thoughts on this direction?

I like this idea. But it didn't say, like, they separate who created the block and who wedded the block. But it didn't say, like, it didn't forbid anyone, like, who, like, take the post role, you know. You can, the same group of people who can create a blog, who can also buy the blog. And so is there still a benefit to their Ethereum proposal if that happens? Yes, I think that's make Ethereum the most decentralized and also prevent, you know, kind of a too big monopoly. Well, let's talk about another topic that I saw you mentioned somewhere. You know, you mentioned that you were very interested in humans becoming a multi-planetary

species. So why are you excited about that? It's not about the exciting or not. It's something like if a human ever survive this universe, it has to be. And when human become multi-planetary and the currency they use have to be multi-planetary as well, just think about it. Everything has to be multi-planetary. Heading to a quite exciting future. probably much time. Maybe you can see that within our lifetime. So you also, personally, do you have like the wish that someday to, you know, I don't know, visit Mars or, like, other planets? Or do you plan on moving there?

You might find, like... I've been living in Martian time zone for some time already. And that's one reason why I like to live in Swarabard, because here we have 24-day-time. You can leave whatever, you know... you like, you know. Amars is one day, it's 24 hours, 39 minutes, and 35 seconds. So it's kind of today you wake up maybe 6 a.m. or you wake up 6.40. And you can only do this in Zwerbart. Yeah. Yeah, I was actually thinking about this topic as well. You know, before. I think I was like doing some hiking last year, and I was also thinking about, okay, but now if you had

Mars, like how would you work with the cryptocurrency, right? Because of course, the big challenge, I guess, is that you have a long, you know, information takes a long time to travel, right, between places. So how do you think, what do you think is the best solution to create a multi-planetary cryptocurrency? I hope that Bitcoin takes that role. Bitcoin has to involve a little bit. to take that through, but I hope eventually to Bitcoin. I think for somewhat maybe I kind of understand, trying to understand, like, what Luke Jr.: the Bitcoin core developer trying to propose when the debate like happening in terms of scaling, some people wanted to have to enlarge the block size,

but basically only look during you proposed like we should not to enlarge the block side, but to reduce it. Maybe you should half in it to like half a megabyte. Yeah, if you want to have a Bitcoin like using for interplanetary settlement, I think not necessarily a bad idea to reduce the block size. And also I think we need to change a consensus to make it more. You do not want to like only have people on the earth to have a privilege to mine Bitcoin. To make the truly decentralized.

is to be like a simple like regarding your planet which planet you live on and I think you know Martians should be able to mine Bitcoin as well so would you just increase the block time to like 24 hours or what or how would you change the consensus that that doesn't solve the problem you know it's probably temporary so the problem if we increase the block span but I think there's other consensus algorithm is possible to handle this matter. We probably need a serious fork. I'm not sure it's possible to do soft fork, but we need a fork. So what would this consensus are you in them look like?

It could be like just like a, you know, instead of a block, one block next to another, we can make a graph. And Earth has, you know, Earth can generate. blocks and Mars can generate blocks. Sometimes they sparsely like, you know, just doing this. So sometimes they basically kind of like sync or like how would it work? You can you can generate a block based on Earth's block or it can generate block based on Mars block. It could be kind of a graph. Yeah, okay. And then you'd have Mars miners, but then it's kind of like Mars has its own little like mining thing and Earth has its kind of mining.

mining on Mars, you can also mining on astronauts, you can mining, you can create a dysosphere. People argue like Bitcoin uses too much energy. I think those people kind of have a valid viewpoint, but I think it's a little bit, you know, short-sighted. You know, because the total energy in our universe is infinite. And it all depends how you find those energy. You can build a Dyson Fair, like, you know, for mining Bitcoin and also for other uses. And if Bitcoin has enough value to support to start such a project, and we have such a project kicks off, and that will benefit our whole society.

That's an isolated development. I mean, when I was thinking about the Mars, the Mars problem, the thing that stood out to me, actually, was that IBC, you know, the kind of Cosmos Interoperability Protocol, that feels like it should work really well, you know, because like if you have a chain on Earth and now I want to transfer money to, and let's say we have a proof of stake chain on Mars, you have a proof you have chains on Earth. Now you can make a transaction from Earth to say like, oh, I want to send it to Mars chain, right? It gets, it goes in the block here. Now, headers are synced, right, with the Mars chain, but it doesn't matter if it takes like, you know, an hour or like it takes some time. And then, you know, like you can basically have this IBC packet, like put executed in the other chain.

You can move coins over. And then you can have a fast proof of stake chain here. We're shaking there. You don't need anybody to, you know, I guess the challenge with some of the other bridge protocols, like, I guess, like, wormhole and is like, you know, the operators are running full node on both chains and watching both chains. Well, but that doesn't work so well, right? Because now you have a chain on Mars, chain and Earth.

I do think there's a solution. But here, like, you know, I think Mars is a major planet in our solar system. It has to be a currency used there. It must not be a security or company coin using there. It could be Mars coin. Yeah, I mean, if, you know, Starship project going well, it's, but, you know, I probably won't be, you know, I probably want to see Mars as a SpaceX company planet,

you know, it would be a public society. Just like here, it's kind of a few decades ago, it kind of like a mining company town. But this slowly is turning into a real public town. I'm not sure like Mars will like going a similar way, but I hope Mars will become like a public planet sooner or not later. Yeah. I mean, of course, another option would be that you have a proof of stake side chain on Mars. So you could move Bitcoin over And then you would use like proof of stake chain

To make the transaction within That's possible, but it's not ideal That's kind of a I think I see that kind of temporary solution But it's far from a ideal solution Because the idea is like that you have Bitcoin consensus Actually be able Yeah, because they make the Earth, they still make the Earth a central central point of fader

because you see market like a side train but this this plan is to be like political neutral political equal right right that's a very interesting problem how can you make Bitcoin you have the solution and to make a Bitcoin

like for interplanetary solution settlement but to make maybe another could be Bitcoin side chain could be other chance for like local user use, especially when it's how, you know, take astronauts in consideration. Some etterrable are probably just like private ones, and they can use whatever they want.

So long they connect to the interplanetular settlement networks, and I think we shouldn't border them to like anything. Cool. Okay, then, well, June, thank you so much for coming on. It was like a really pleasure to speak with you. I mean, I'm great admirer, right? Also, if you work with steakfish and, you know, how do you could... Do not see F2 full like a side company.

It's not... After POW, after POW become POS, if you have to pull, it will be focused on Bitcoin. Abtuf basically will be like a Bitcoin company. And we'll make an F2P a Bitcoin company. Yeah, we'll do a lot of things for Bitcoin. No, that sounds great too. I'm just saying especially steakfish because I'm much more familiar with the proof of stake and deeply involved in the proof of state ecosystem.

But of course, it's very crucial to have Bitcoin thrive as well. And I'm excited that you're thinking about how to evolve Bitcoin and make it multiplanitary. Now, I guess challenge is going to be, okay, how do you get some kind of hard fork or fundamental change into Bitcoin? Because right, that is like very, very difficult. It's definitely possible if you have a consensus, but you know, if one day will have no choice but make a hard work, I think a hard work will happen. Okay, well, thanks so much, June, for coming on.

I'm excited to see where you're going to take steak, fish, F2 pool, and sort of where this conversation evolves around crypto and humans on other planets. I think that's going to be actually, I don't know if you've spoken about this on this podcast before. Maybe it's the first time, I'm not sure. But I'm sure it's not going to be the last time, because I think that's going to end up being like a very important conversation, you know, in the next decade, two decades as this kind of slowly starts to, or quickly starts to progress. Yeah, for sure. All right. So thanks so much, June, and thanks so much for our listeners for tuning in.

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