Epicenter - Learn about Crypto, Blockchain, Ethereum, Bitcoin and Distributed Technologies - DappCon 25: The Ticker Is $ETH - Jerome de Tychey, Joshua Dávila & Nixorokish

Episode Date: June 20, 2025

As the summer tour of European crypto conferences landed in Berlin, one of crypto’s cradles, we couldn’t miss DappCon 25, where we got to sit with Jerome de Tychey, Nixorokish & Joshua Dávila to discuss Ethereum’s restructure and whether its culture is still relevant to the wider crypto community. Join us for a fascinating discussion on the impact of crypto politicization and how Ethereum’s ecosystem evolved amidst a society with ever-changing values.Topics covered in this episode:Jerome, Nixorokish & Josh backgroundsEthereum Foundation restructuringEthereum’s culture & crypto politicizationDAOs & the evolution of Ethereum’s ecosystemIs privacy still a societal value?User experience & account abstractionFuture hopes for EthereumEpisode links:Jerome de Tychey on XNixorokish on XJoshua Davila on XDappCon on XSponsors:Gnosis: Gnosis builds decentralized infrastructure for the Ethereum ecosystem, since 2015. This year marks the launch of Gnosis Pay— the world's first Decentralized Payment Network. Get started today at - gnosis.ioChorus One: one of the largest node operators worldwide, trusted by 175,000+ accounts across more than 60 networks, Chorus One combines institutional-grade security with the highest yields at - chorus.oneThis episode is hosted by Friederike Ernst.

Between 2017 and today, there has been like five generations of so-called Eiff killers that are like, yeah, let's go kill some Eif and kill Eiff and be the second blockchain, or maybe the first blockchain. And part of the frustration that happened in the community, probably during the witch hunt, was like, yeah, but look at all those foundations. They are doing much better than us. They are more aggressive than us. They want to win. One thing that I find is really detrimental to communicate air and culture is trying to put blockchain somewhere on the political spectrum. Doing this isolates a lot of people and makes people believe things about crypto that aren't true. Oh, the Ethereum Foundation actually made some pretty cool things and there's some really interesting research. They did not really capitalize much on. For me, a big question of whether or not this has become a reaction to price not going up.

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hardware. Start your decentralization journey today at NOSIS. We're here at DAPCON and we're here for an epicenter at DAPCON panel and the people who joined me here graciously today are Nixo, previously from East Staker, now at the Ethereum Foundation, Josh, whom you may know better as the blockchain socialist from Twitter, and Jerome Netigie from Comuth and Heath France and ECC and kind of like all things, you know, French Ethereum. Fantastic. So maybe we can do a round of introductions first. Maybe let's start with you, Nixo. Kind of give us the TLDR on you on yourself. Okay, so I used to be a scientist. I went from

oceanography to working in the Ethereum ecosystem because I got like very obsessed with Ethereum staking and Ethereum in general. And so I left oceanography to work in staking. Worked in staking for a few years was the executive director at Eastacre before moving to protocol support at the Ethereum Foundation. And the way that happened is like when you advocate for solo stakers, it means that you have to be aware of research that's going into the protocol. And I ended up becoming close with like researchers and core devs. And I wanted to help support that. that process of upgrades going into forks. And so protocol support was a very direct way to do that. Cool. And we'll talk about kind of like recent developments at the foundation after the intro. So kind of like you are very well placed as an inside source here. Perfect.

And Josh, you are the blockchain socialist. We kind of like, we touch base on this kind of like just before the podcast and kind of like try to rank different networks by political affiliation and we kind of landed on the fact that Ethereum was kind of like in the more left side of the hemisphere but kind of it's a lonely stance no?

I mean it's you have friends. I have friends yeah. Yeah I mean I have a few years ago taken the unfortunate stance of putting my flag down and saying that I'm the blockchain socialist after being like

kind of frustrated after many years of being involved in the crypto space and working in it. And also feeling a lack of good, I thought it was needed kind of from a left-wing perspective analysis on the crypto space. So yeah, so the blockchain soldiers is the name of my blog and podcast where I share a lot of things and sometimes I tweet. And yeah, but I also build through bread cooperative. We build a lot on nosis chain as well. So, yeah, I think I, coming from a perspective of both, like, following everything from a media point of view, from a, you know, I'm open about my stance on things and then also from building stuff on various chains.

Tell us about bread chain. Yeah. So we recently announced our rebrand to Bread Cooperative because there's nothing to lose. We only have our chains to lose, right? And so, yeah, basically it's a project. It's a cooperative network of kind of politically aligned projects. We kind of use this term post-capitalism to frame the things that we build. I think yesterday at DepCon, I presented on Solidarity Primitive.

So this is kind of like the technological, conceptual framework in how we think about building applications, thinking of technology as something that facilitates relationships between people and institutions. Defi primitives being cool in their own rights, but they are ones that generally facilitate relationships of finance. So trying to, I use the term kit bashing, so taking things that maybe had a certain purpose for one thing, but mashing them together so that they produce different logics that don't necessarily involve kind of a individualistic profit motivation and using technology. What didn't use you to kind of put down your flag? because kind of like, I think kind of the politics of the space has shifted very markedly over the year. So kind of I think there's always been kind of the libertarian faction, but I mean, that's still there and kind of like the crypto anarchists and so on. I would probably also kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of like they're not kind of like economic libertarians per se.

But kind of we've seen a huge influx of more conservative forces, right, over the last couple of. years. Yeah, I mean, I would say in large part, it's kind of more, people have become a lot more vocal or emboldens in their conservatism. But yeah, I think for me, I mean, I originally started everything anonymously. So for me, it was just kind of like, someone's got to do it. I don't really want to do an associate my name with it because I had a corporate job and I didn't want to like explain to my boss what I was doing. So I did it anonymously, but eventually I left that job and then I was asked to write a book. And they said, I have to be public if I want to publish the book. And so I had to come out of the Anon closet. And yeah, so for me, it was kind of a, I think there's a

certain empowerment for others as well. I think what I found is that there were a lot of people in the crypto space who were uncomfortable with certain political aspects when being involved in it. And so by being the person to kind of just be open about it, then I think it gave other people more confidence in like being able to express that. So I mean, I constantly get, you know, messages from people of just like, you know, thank you. It's not like, thank you for showing. It's not like all just an alt-right, you know, wormhole or whatever like that. So, yeah, I've ended up becoming that. But, you know, there's more than just me just to say that like, I think share the similar politics and are also involved in the crypto space and have the critiques and also the, you know, different interests as to

what is being pursued in the space as I think there's a difference depending on your politics, sometimes on the things that you're kind of interested in because it's a very large spectrum of things you can do with the technology, right? Absolutely. And I think kind of socialism, this is also something that kind of, it depends really starkly where you're based, whether this is something that people believe as an insight. So kind of here in Germany, kind of like being a socialist is kind of like being middle of the road, whereas when you go kind of like into the U.S., it's basically an insight to call someone a socialist.

So the territory is being challenged now in America. I think American politics is like very much in flux at the moment, which I think, you know, especially starting in 2016, I mean, Trump and Bernie Sanders definitely kind of broke the political spectrum a bit or was the norm in the U.S. for so many decades. but so things are being, things are being challenged. And now we have, I mean, if you're keeping up in New York City, the leading mayoral candidate is a, I don't know if he said he's a socialist,

but a lot of his policies are pretty aligned in that way. Cool. Speaking of socialism, Jerome. Oh, God. What a transition. So on the political spectrum, I think I see it in the bleeding heart libertarians. Like, yeah, libertarianism, but let's mutualize.

as much as we can as we can because there's a lot of thing that like just works better if we mutualize a risk but yeah so for a quick intro I've been in the space for about 10 years now I've said it as a minor my I'm an economist by training I was very appealed by the idea of doing

money without central banks that's why I love circles I think it's an excellent idea to approach the minting of money the other way around so I did some mining I switched to Ethereum because I had a lot of GPUs back in the days. I created it here in France to organize a bit of the French community around how we can mine and we can do smart contract

and we can do things this way. I said to work in the space first at EY then at consensus and at ledger that at my own company, Cometh. And I created ITCC to bring everybody together in Paris or in France or in Brussels or in Cannes regularly every year roughly at the same time. We got a get-together time. And if you're a thousand nonprofit, it has been running for about 10 years now. And we will happily party for the 10 years of the Eterium in a few weeks. And see everyone at ECC in 10 days now, of the 30th of June. Yeah, it is coming up pretty soon.

Give us the pre-cap of what's going to happen at ECC this year. So every big conference like to say, are the biggest so let's say we are the biggest in Europe I think is very much it's by far the biggest in Europe so conference wise like we can expect several thousands of people like last year at Brussels we had a 6k people coming to the conference we have a few more tickets open than 6k this year so let's say okay at it's at it's easy you'll see 6k people with a with band probably quite more people are coming to can also even if they are don't showing up to to ECC because we have a lot of side events.

Like last year in Brussels, we had 600 side events. This year we tried to be a bit more careful about the side events we list. So there is ETC week that's listing a couple of vested side events that we have checked out. Okay, this is real and so on. But you have lots of lists available on Cryptoomad, Luma, and so on and so forth.

So lots of side events, lots of people are coming, but also lots of speakers, 360 plus, that are going to speak at ECC. And then right after ITCC, you have the Eve Global Canh, Hackato. And so, yeah, a full week of events in the South of France between the 30th of June to 6th of July. And venue-wise, this is going to be happening in the Festival Palace, which is the same place that gets to host the Film Festival of Cannes. So you will walk the same carpet as, well, let's take people from different politics.

spectrum, Tom Cruise, Tom Hanks, I don't know who's the main leftist actors in the US. Yeah, so lots of different people have been walking the red carpet. So same place. It's also quite a small city with a lot of accommodation. So when it's organizing a festival or a big event like it's here, you roughly have 20% of the population that are in the town that are coming for this event specifically. so you will have a town that's blockchain-minded for about a week. And also the city of Cannes has been very, very, very welcoming to the idea of crypto.

It's a right-wing mayor, watering center mayor, called David Lista, that has been very pro-crypto, saying this is the future, we cannot miss this train. So let's make sure we onboard all the shops to accept crypto, to be friendly of crypto and so on, which was very, very positive to see in the organization. Did that actually happen? Kind of like, can I go into a shop and kind of like pay with? Yes, yes. Indeed, there is a local startup that created a pot-of-sale approach to paying with crypto.

They're based in Marseille, I think. Yeah, based in Marseille. And so they partner with the city hall to equip a lot of the different shops. When we came before the operation in February, I was already able to pay with crypto for lunch. And you will see on the front door, big circle circle

sticker that says crypto accepted here in blue and gold so you'll know that you are going to be in a good place but yeah it's going to be very pretty nice and what kind of crypto

do they accept is it very inclusive or is it kind of like well you can pay with USC here so I paid in EF okay yeah so I don't know exactly I didn't proof check the solution like can you pay in

this is also it's also an interesting challenge for a shop right kind of like which which coins do you accept in exchange for your goods and services so it's so it's so it's easy as a as an as an event tries every year to accept crypto for payment

and event organizer like maybe you know the problem making sure that a large heavy duty ticketing system accept crypto so you have two to inbound of payment, the classic payment with crypto, and the payment with crypto, making sure that

those two are getting reconciled and properly integrated. It's kind of hard first, and then accepting any type of tokens to be performed as payment is another challenge. And if you add on top of that, from an accounting perspective, you prefer to receive this on this L2 or on Nosis or on polygon, whatever. As a specific output, you add another layer of complexity, so you need to do a cross-chain payment and so on. So we tried something at this year. It's working-ish, but it's definitely a big challenge. If you take the point of sale

at a brick and mortar shop, them having to handle all this complexity is super complex. And I assume it's also kind of, it's converted on the spot and they actually receive tables, right? I mean, kind of like you don't make them holders themselves.

Yeah. I mean, from like the first bars that I say did a crypto in France, for example, in Paris, you have a few like this. They just show you a QR code linked to Coinbase and like, okay, scan this, send me some Bitcoin, send me some ether, like, yeah, whatever. I'll just keep it. And in the book, they show that, okay, I sold you like 20 euros of beer. And yeah, they keep the thing.

I wonder if they, yeah, I probably don't. They probably switch immediately to Euro and so on. At DabCon, we don't accept credit card payments. Oh. So you actually have to pay on chain. I think kind of like if you actually show up to the venue, then kind of we let you pay with a card. But basically if you buy ahead of time, and it's actually proved really good fun, a kind of really good filter for getting the right kind of people here. And I think kind of as someone who's kind of built in the space also for years, I mean, if the tech is so bad that not even we ourselves are willing to use it, there's something kind of that we urgently need to work on.

but yeah. I agree with you. It's a strong stance and it's an adverse selection. Like, you only have people that already have a wallet that show up to the end of the day. This is correct, yeah. But at the same time, if you are in the five of thousands and six of thousands of tickets, you need to use professional services for the ticketing. And they look at you like crypto.

Okay. We use Unlock. And I know you've worked with them in the past too, but kind of I cannot. endorse them enough. They are fantastic. So if any of you kind of run a crypto event, unlock, they're your guys. Happy to make an intro. Well, yeah, we went back to back in force with different ticket providers that we're able to handle our load. Now we have a crypto integration in a ticketing provider. Let's see how the check-in at the conference works before I can endorse them. Yeah, okay. Good. Who are your headliners this year?

How the usual suspects, I mean, everybody that has something to say at ETC usually gets to say it. Like we have most major protocols are here. Most of them are also showcasing something that they recently released. That was the plan initially to have a recurring conference happening every year at the same time, which means that from a production perspective, you prepare to do a product announcement around ETC. So we have people from most of the DFI protocols, most of the big ones. and we have also a few people from the Itcheram Foundation that are coming.

Thomas is coming, Vitalik is coming like every year. And I'm very excited by the release of V4 of Ave. Like Stani has been supporting us for a long time as well. And ECC is also a place where you have smaller rooms from 50 to 60 seats. And we welcome a lot of researchers that come and showcase what they have been building in the recent weeks and recent months. So it's also pretty cool if you want to stay updated. with what's going on in the research space.

What I'm personally very excited is to see Web2 companies coming at TTC and sponsoring. So, yeah, Robin Hood has been one of the main sponsor this year, and they have a lot of things to announce, so it's pretty nice to see that. It's showing that we are getting in a new maturity at the ecosystem. This is super interesting to hear. There's other tiny things we should probably talk about.

So kind of the Ethereum Foundation, a week or two ago, they kind of announced a major restructuring. Kind of some people were laid off, kind of teams were merged. Maybe, Nixor, do you want to give us the rundown of what happened? And then kind of we can talk about kind of like what's the community reaction has been like. Yeah, for sure. So basically, they're like different parts of the EF. One of them was the protocol research and development side. and there was a restructuring of that Ethereum R&D section, and it's just called Protocol now.

And they sort of restructured the teams. They dissolved some teams. They moved some people to different places on teams. And it was kind of a shock for people because I haven't been at the EF very long. I joined last September. And so the majority of my experience with the EF has been sort of as an outsider. but since last September, I sort of, like, the EF was sort of like this mystery entity to me before I joined. And like, you don't really know what the structure is.

You don't really know who works there. You don't really know how big it is. And so when I joined the first thing I started doing is I started keeping lists of people. And I was like, okay, who are you? Where do you work? And I was sort of like trying to parse out like who worked where. And one of the things I did is we were running our first internship program. And the interns were sort of like.

Okay, but like I'm applying for an R&D position, but I really don't know like what teams are there. And I was like, yeah, me neither. So I created like this, this blog and I sent it to all the researchers and the development teams. And I was like, is this correct? And sort of forced them to like come up with a, come up with a description of their teams. And I think that that was like on the way to like the EF discovering like it needs to sort of publicize who works there. It needs to publicize what the team. teams are because it makes it a lot easier for people to collaborate with research at the

EF and development at the EF if you know what the teams are and you know what the points of contact are. So I published this blog post for the interns. It was helpful for the entire ecosystem, I think. So the restructuring has been, yeah, it came as kind of a shock to people because there was this feeling when I joined that like the EF was sort of like tenured. Like when you work there, you just kind of work there as long as you want to work there. like Hotel California. Yes, exactly. And so I think that this is really a shift in culture at the EF to be like, you know, like we're going to make sure that teams are efficient. We're going to make sure that like people who are there are their projects are still relevant to the ecosystem.

And we're going to constantly reevaluate if those projects are relevant. But on the other side, there was sort of like this growing narrative in the EF. Like we need to we need to grow and develop with the ecosystem. And like the. Ethereum ecosystem and the crypto ecosystem in general looks so different than what it looked like in 2017, 2018, 2019. And so if the EF still looks like exactly what it looked like back then, we're not growing. And there's no way that Ethereum as an ecosystem would keep up without its best steward growing with it. So, yeah, I think people are pretty stoked about changes at the EF after getting over like the initial shock. And like, of course, like not everybody.

some people were out of let go and so like it was sort of bittersweet for people yeah but I am very bullish on these changes and I'm very excited to see that like they're basically when when Tomash and Shaoui came in

it sort of represented this change that was happening at the EF where there was like this subtraction philosophy and it was sort of like infinite garden and Shaoey and Tomash came in and Shao Wei sort of has been at the EF for a long time

Tomash was at another mind, still is that another mind. And it was like this yinin and yang. Tomash sort of represents the mercenary part of the ecosystem and Shaoay sort of represents the missionary. And I think that it's important for the Ethereum Foundation not to just be like center missionary or mercenary. I think it's important for them to have both so that we have representatives from both like sort of like balancing each other out. And I think so far it is going very well. I'm super happy to hear that. Jerome, you've been extremely vocal in your criticism of

the Ethereum Foundation. You gave a talk titled, What I Don't Like About Ethereum. We mostly talked about this. So what's your kind of external view on these changes? So I've been extremely vocal, I think, in a

polite way. In a polite and constructive matter. A hundred percent. So I think it's been very needed. There's been a witch hunt back in November, December, January against the EF. And I, well,

I pitied the ones that participated actively and harshly around this. But it was like a hard moment to go through, I think, as an ecosystem. Yet, what I don't like about Ethereum, it's, it was initially an ask for

from Joseph, Joseph JLesik, from H Prague, told me, like, hey, this was a fun talk that happened at this year ago. Would you like to do this talk? I was like, yep, yeah, let's do something like this because there are things that I don't like about Ethereum, things that are changing, and I'm happy to see some changes right now.

And we had an history at the ecosystem of doing our dirty laundry in public, but there's a different way of doing the duchy laundry and proposing things that can change, proposing things that work and don't work, and I think it's a good way to do it now. So about the changes at the foundation, I'm very happy of what I'm seeing and unravel right now.

I think one of the one of the one of the things that got me into Ethereum and got me bullish and dedicated in the past 10 years of my life growing. I think when I'm asked what is my mission, I want to bring more people into the blockchain. I want to be more people into Ethereum by organizing events, by doing some custody stuff, some letter service stuff, helping different things. And I want this technology to succeed. And I feel like there is a strong appeal in very brilliant minds, very talented people, very dedicated people. into this ecosystem because when you deep dive into it and you look at how welcoming the community is, you feel like, hey, yeah, this is what I want.

This is what I want to work on. Like I want to be part of this project. And this also comes with a realization that we are at different stages of maturity of our ecosystem. Like Nixos said it very elegantly. Like it's a interim now doesn't look like it's room before. Like in 2017, like you just joined the foundation. and you're like, yeah, it's a tenure.

But between 2017 and today, there has been like five generation of so-called if-killers that are like, yeah, let's go kill some if and kill if and be the second blockchain or maybe the first blockchain. And part of the frustration that happened in the community, probably during the witch hunt was like, yeah, but look at all those foundations.

They are doing much better than us. They are more aggressive than us. They want to win. Yeah, well, Completely ignoring this wasn't a solution. And people coming in and coming out of the foundation is a net positive to the ecosystem because someone that has been working on a foundation

for a few years, and now is on the market or joining a new team, come with a lot of network at the foundation. You know how it works regarding the R&D project at the foundation was coming up and so on. So having an inflow of people from the foundation into the project that are developing right now is very positive for the ecosystem as well.

The lack of transparency that was at the budget of the foundation was something that was easy to critique. And now that, okay, we have an organigram, we have a clear, much clearer direction. It's being received very positively among if holders, if blockchain builders and the general public as a whole. So, yeah, those changes were expected and I'm glad they are being unraveled. But there's many things that I don't like about Deuterium. Way more things that I like about Ethereum. So I'm staying in. We'll get to them in a second.

So I think kind of, I was also vocal in the debate on kind of like Ethereum culture, kind of like when kind of all of this got brought up. Because I think kind of like a lot of the voices we were hearing were needlessly antagonistic. And I think kind of I'm also very much not in the camp. There were also a lot of people who clamored very loud. that the Ethereum Foundation doesn't do enough marketing. And I think, kind of like, there's, in my view, kind of marketing is not in scope for the foundation, right?

And I think, kind of, I know that there are foundations who do this, but I think kind of like critiquing the fact that there was not enough vision and kind of the technical roadmap, and kind of there was no, no clear narrative about kind of like where we're trying to go and kind of like what we're trying to build, I would 100% second that. And I think kind of like the infinite garden narrative was also a little bit of a cop-out because basically it includes everything and nothing, right? It's kind of like, what does that even mean? What does that even mean?

So in defense for people that were harsh, sometimes when you feel like you are not being heard, sometimes when you feel like things need to change and you have no way of making yourself heard, you begin to shout and you begin to insult. So when you result to insult and so on, it's not a good sign, but it's also not a good side from the people that were supposed to listen to, not even give attention. So maybe there was a kind of Evory Tower feeling

like, hey, we're just nice in doing good. Why people are so mean to us at the foundation? Yeah, so it doesn't make us look good for the general public for sure. But still, sometimes you have to result to this kind of push unfortunately.

You disagree, Nixo? Absolutely. I think the mob mentality that happened on Twitter last fall was horrible. It was not productive. It was actually counterproductive to decisions that were being made at the time. And I think that the way that especially trusted people in the ecosystem, people who have very loud voices, very trusted voices on crypto Twitter,

were being really irresponsible with the way that they were handling this situation. And it made a lot of people jump in and it enabled a lot of gross behavior. I don't want to excuse any of those behavior at all. But I think from this kind of, when we are at this scale, of bad talk and bad debates. I think it's also interesting to say, hey, how this could have been avoided? Like, what could have been done

to be more reactive and to be more proactive on this world? Now, from a marketing standpoint as a whole, like, I think we have to accept that we are not in our teenage years anymore. Like, back in the days where you just had a few people showing up at an interim friends meetup

saying, like, hey, I just want to install an interim minor on my gaming computer so I can get some if you just contribute you start to plug the things you pay a little bit of electricity and you have some if and that's cool it turns out that now if you want to get into anything that's ether related you first have to go on an exchange and buy ether yeah so your first contact with with the the asset is actually the ticker the ticker is if i said someone famous so yeah and when when you have this entry point that's not a lobby hobbyist entry point but but a but a buyer entry point you you just create an account on whatever socialized exchange or yeah usually

you do that and then you get into the the meme coin stuff and the and the fun stuff around and the betting stuff and any any any word tokens and then you look at the the ticker of epharam and you're like oh wow is this something i want to hold is this someone i want to participate in so i i doubt we can avoid to be to be more proactive in um in how in how we we explain the project, how we position the project, and how we get people to actually participate in the project. So solo staking is extremely important in that front,

but also having a clear narrative on why you should hold EF and why EF is important is extremely strong. And we miss out on a thing that we took a lot of time to set out on the market, like from, for example, the world computer, like shaping the thing like, hey, it's a world computer, even ultrasound money.

Like, okay, we wanted to position us as ultrasound money. So why did that? for Infinite Garden and Solar Punk narratives while creating those value and creating those reference points to the public is extremely long and enforcing and creating a culture is extremely hard while we didn't really push our history and our value differently than just dancing on the stage

and saying like hey we just everybody's welcome just show up and contribute it's much harder to be in that position and pushing that when you are not alone anymore on the scene. Like when there is a lot of well-organized foundation that push hard for their own narrative. Do you think that a culture element is kind of like it's run its course? Because kind of like, I don't know whether you guys saw Tomash's talk.

Kind of like it was actually very entertaining. He kind of ran us through his adventures trying to kind of on-chain some money on a fresh account and kind of like everything didn't work. but this is the TLDR. So kind of, do you think somehow this, you know,

but it's Ethereum culture, kind of, narrative kind of, is stopping us from actually going out and, you know, getting users? We're not good at pushing our culture, I think.

That's something I don't like about it. We're not, we're not that good at pushing our culture right now. What do you think, Josh? What is the question is what is our culture? Yeah, exactly. I think there's...

Rehabil neutrality. you know, being welcoming. That's a difficult culture to push. How do I enact credible neutrality of culture? Exactly. Look, and for me, every time you speak about, every time we try to bring a culture into an ecosystem, like we need to have reference points, we need to have examples,

and we need to have some recurring celebration of things. Unfortunately, I think Bitcoin is a good example. Like we do Pizza Day. Hey, Pizza Day. Look, guys, we do pizza day. Every 22 of May, we do pizza day. Look, why pizza day? Oh, because this happened.

I hope we get to celebrate the Dowhack. I hope we get to celebrate a couple of folks. I hope we get... Celebrate the Taohack. Yeah, just a realization that sometimes on the computer that don't reboot for 10 years, like, thing can happen. Like, we can get together as validators of the network and say, like, hey, this went wrong, and, okay, let's change this.

let's celebrate the parity multisig hack. Oh, sometimes we don't change because we need to stay incredibly neutral. I actually think that this is something that Ethereum does really well is celebrating these things because they do live streams for all of the upgrades.

And Eastaker started doing that way back in the day just because they were stoked about the beacon chain going live. And I think that that is, like, I've never, I'm never so bullish on Ethereum and I never feel as good as like when I get out of a live stream call because they are so energetic.

The first of December, changing the consensus on the life chain, come on, guys, this is record science engineering at scale and safekeeping all of those values on chain at the same time, diffusing the difficulty bunk five time. This is something we celebrate because there's no proof-of-stakes system that compares to Ethereum in terms of maturity. How hard it is? Well, it takes five-year dedication and commitment to do that.

tell her last year engineering students about this and we were like, oh wow, this is something I want to join. And suddenly the big values, like how could you be neutral openness, research and so on, that Ethereum

has in the foundation want to embody. Suddenly this become clear, this become real. Like, oh yeah, over the past 10 years, this is the adventure that you guys went on and I want to be part of the next chapter. This is much more powerful than green flowers, dance and just being nice.

Like this is how we embody this culture. And this is what I think we should push more for, more embodiment of the culture in the history of Ethereum itself. Yeah, I will say, and I hope this isn't a shot at you, but I will say that one thing that I find is really detrimental to communicate iron culture is trying to put blockchain somewhere on the political spectrum because blockchain is supposed to be credibly neutral. It's supposed to benefit everybody equally. And like, I think that people who are right or left keep like trying to like claim or disown

crypto in general. And I think doing this isolates a lot of people and makes people believe things about crypto that aren't true. And do I can tell you have like response to this. I have Ivan Holman. I'm finished. I don't want to interrupt. But I find my own, I find that like putting things on political spectrums generally is detrimental more so than constructive because in a lot of the world right now we love to place things on political spectrums, which is a way to divide people rather than a way to move something forward. And it makes people choose teams. And I just, I find that Ethereum in general, even if you look at the specific issues that people on the, the right or the left care about if you like isolate issues you find that they agree on a lot more than they disagree on but they focus on the things that they disagree on and putting that somewhere

on the political spectrum focuses on those things that they disagree on rather than the majority of issues where they where they agree so this is this is very complex uh i think problems face to talk about uh i think the problem is i mean i don't know for me the reality is that like everyone associates a lot of people associate crypto with a very right-wing politics And you're a good foil. I don't know if I'm a good foil for that. I mean, I'm trying my best. I think there's a lot of, like, very big powers that we have not really contended with very well.

I mean, yeah, Coinbase sponsored the military parade in the U.S. I mean, this is something that's like, I mean, this is pretty bad optically, I think. But, like, this is sending a signal to the world that, like, Coinbase, like, a very big image is on the side of. of like American imperial might, you know. Yeah. It's, um, communication run that was even worse. Sure. Yeah. And, and this is, and Coinbase is not the only group that is a part of it. I mean, during the run up to the last election, it was very obvious. I mean, yeah, I guess I just,

I would fight back against the, the feeling that it's both the left and the rights fault for trying to claim like, I would say that, you know, there is some arguments you can make that Ethereum relative to other blockchains. Generally, there are people who are maybe more kind of like on the center left, I would say. That's not crazy to say. And in comparison, but the bar is fairly low. I have to say, like, if, you know, if you saw the latest that the Salana advertisement and just like plenty of the people who are very big voices in what they've said outwardly, it's, it does confer to a right-wing politics. And I think that I think, I think, you know, just maybe getting back to like the Ethereum Foundation. changes perhaps. Like, I do think that there was a lot of changes that probably needed to be made. I'm not, like, super privy to all the details and all the specifics and whatever else. I don't want to comment, like, too much on it. But, like, there was a need for some sort of change because, yeah, it kind of felt everyone was like, what does the Ethereum Foundation kind of do? Or they, what does it look like? What's the structure? How do I get help from them? Like, that was always, like, not, it was often very not clear. But the Ethereum Foundation all did, also did if like, at least just, you know, once I I did, started learning, meeting more people in it and, like, seeing what they were working on. Then I realized, oh, the Ethereum Foundation actually made some pretty cool things. And there's some really interesting research. They did not really capitalize much on as well.

Like, there's ZKTLS is like one example. Like, they basically created it. And now there are a bunch of companies that are using it. And I don't know if the Ethereum Foundation is like getting much out of it, for example. And yeah, so like, so there, I think there are some, like, legitimate critiques and some change needed. I think there's also, for me, a big question of whether or not this has become a reaction to price not going up. And that's kind of like the big question. I think that's like what caused the most amount of rage and anger and why like people have this like crazy behavior on Twitter and whatever else.

After Pectra, there was like this surge of like good feelings. And everybody was like, Spectra went well, we're so happy. And I made a comment to somebody like and like the vibes on crypto Twitter immaculate. And somebody was like, so the price is up. But I think this is like a very serious like, you know, thing to notice because like, okay, talking about culture, at least my view, like, I definitely agree with a lot of what you said, but I think the, the root at what defines culture is like material reality. It's like economic reality defines culture in many ways. Nobody complains when we are performing at par with the rest of the markets, of course. Yeah. Like cultural stance, defend ton of other cash founders. Super strong cultural stand that the E.T.T.m. Foundation. That the Trump Foundation. took. How is it advertised? How is it being put into motion? Like if you talk to any great engineers or great to be engineers, you tell them, hey, we defend free code. Yeah. And concretely, what this

translates to? It translates to this and not sponsoring a military parade. Oh, yeah, sure. Okay. That's extremely impactful. But at the same time, people were potentially reacting to some big institutions, some big major financial institutions or public institutions going to work with a weird blockchain that we never heard of for upcoming blockchains that were like, what is the foundation doing? Why aren't we part of the discussions? And part of the latest strategy

that the newest blockchain we're employing is elbowing their way, leveraging their way really well to various regulators and various financial institutions. So behind the credible neutrality stance of the HM Foundation, I think for a long time, they refused, the EF refused, and I think still refused to talk to governments, talk to public institutions, talk to big banks, talk to those different bodies.

I will say that's still refusing is that Tomash has been open about the fact that he is talking to those institutions. That's great. And that's a different change that's ongoing and that's super positive because usually when you look at this and you want to be credible, you either take the, I talk to everyone and it's super hard to maintain and it's super hard to accept to talk to everyone, including potential dictatorships and so on, and I'll talk to no one.

And the city in the middle that I'm open to talk to anyone and I will not lose my soul implies that you have people that are actually doing those talks that are very, very strong stance and are really credible in the way they implement it. And I do think it's a mistake to suppose that it's okay to say, hey, those different non-EF foundation are going to do it

because we say they are going to do it, because we say they are good enough to do it. At the end of the day, you have the institutions that say, well, I've been talking to this foundation, that foundation, that foundation. We wanted to talk to the ETHRM Foundation, and we had con-based, if you all eyes, and those guys. But that's not the EF, so they are not in control of the protocol. Even if we say we're not in the control of the protocol anyway at the EF,

no, now the institution wants to talk to the EF and not wanting to waive the ETHRM flag to those institutions is probably a mistake and I'm glad to hear that Thomas is doing the work anyway. You cannot really externalize that when all the other blockchain are doing it themselves, I think.

Josh, I mean, when we kind of look at kind of like how the ecosystem has evolved over the years, and I'm going somewhere with this. So in the very beginning, we talked about things like agency for individuals, right?

We talked about shared ownership structures. We talked about large scale coordination, bottom up, and so on. And to me, these are very much not right wing speaking points, right? Kind of like, these are talking points for kind of the

progressive left. But somehow we kind of left those people behind, or we kind of we alienated kind of like the non-crypto leftists by, I'm not entirely sure doing what, despite the fact that kind of, if you look at, say,

the Elizabeth Warren's of the world, in principle, kind of like on principle, she should love crypto, right? So where do you think we went wrong? And kind of like now kind of with speaking, the Ethereum Foundation, kind of speaking with large banks and other institutions, is that good enough for kind of the common man? That's kind of the common user, right? What's good enough for the common man? This kind of emphasis shift to kind of speaking more with kind of, kind of,

of the economically powerful players that are already out there. Where kind of like in the beginning it was kind of more of a less level this playing ground kind of feel. So where do you fall on that? It's complicated. I mean, I think that, you know, in my book, blockchain radicals, I hope available in all bookstores online. I mean, Elizabeth Warren, I mean, she's an interesting character. I think she's not, she doesn't really, like you place her.

In plenty of European countries, she's a center-right politician. Absolutely. In Germany, she would be center-right for sure. Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's really complicated when you're looking at specific countries and where they stand and what they're kind of going for. So, yeah, I mean, she is, yeah, I mean, the U.S., there's not very much of a left. It's still, like, constantly trying to grow, and then the Democrats destroying it. So that's hard to say. I think there's, like, I had a.

big interest in the cryptocurrency world because of a more, I would argue a more radical politics in someone like Elizabeth Warren. I do have like plenty of critiques of the states. I have plenty of critiques of also capital. But a lot of kind of the thing is like the image of who is on the left oftentimes if you're getting that from a lot of news, media and whatever else, like the people who can actually get into power often places and places like the United States don't necessarily represent what you would historically, if you read into the history of what is, historically the left doesn't really particularly exist.

And this is like decades of plenty of strategies and policies that have kind of destroyed it in many ways. That would be too long to talk about here. But yeah, I think it's that there is this association as well of crypto with it simply being a pursuit for individual profits. and that oftentimes doesn't reflect, it doesn't combine well with kind of the traditional, like, left-wing ethos of like a type of collectivity.

I think we had the moments with Daos, like there was a bunch of people who were like, oh, we could all own our, you know, workplaces, and we're all going to like, you know, it was a lot of people, what I found is there was a kind of pipeline of people, kind of libertarians to socialists a little bit as they got interested in Daos, but then DAOs now have kind of not turned out necessarily the way I think that a lot of people

expected it to. But I do think that generally there is like a group of people on the left that I think would be very interested in the things that crypto has to offer. It just hasn't been packaged in the way to them that they can receive it. So if I say imagine a DAO is kind of an online cooperative and kind of IT, take that to the left. Do you think that is something that would kind of resonate? For some, for sure. Yeah. And I think it did. It's definitely like a lot of people that did happen to them, I think. And I had a lot of friends who got interested in that specifically. The difficulty, I think, in the next step, perhaps in a more practical sense, maybe onboarding and the economic reality.

I mean, Tomas's talk probably showed how difficult it is to onboard these. types of people who are like very not necessarily tech people, but they love the ideas and the concept. So it's like how do we make a flow to where we can package it to them, hey, this is like something that's interesting for you and the things that you want to pursue. And also it's not that complicated to do it. It also just doesn't play well when you talk about like Dow's being this online cooperative and then you look at how Dow's have practically paid it out. Most of them don't work. And so I think a lot of the people who are coming in on that and they're like, oh, this is broken. Dow's are a primitive product right now. They're a building block. And I think that

something cool will come out of it eventually. But I don't think that most of them are functional right now. This should be very attractive to leftist anarchists. Yes. That was an organization. In most of the country, from my personal perspective, like the leftist anarchists have been absorbed by the left. are like a resonating style, an echo chamber for the left. And so, like, they don't really need a way to organize and to be more vocal. They are already there and active this way in the shadow or sometimes in the forefront of the left and attractive for that. I can tell you a little bit from the French politics perspective.

Like, in the French political spectrum, the left anarchists are almost disappeared. There's no more real big communist party. in France. The left, like the socialist as a whole, from La France Insomis to the socialist, they both hate crypto to the ground. Like, they hate it, hate it, hate it, hate it,

and they've been extremely vocal and extremely engaged it. I think from a pure philosophical standpoint, like one of the biggest changes that crypto is bringing is a new form of ownership you own through cryptographic standpoints. So it's a type of, of ownership that's not given by the state. So it's not easy to control. So it's not easy to tax and redistribute.

So yeah, and it's also going against our capacity to impose our money and impose our thing that we mean ourselves. Okay, I hate crypto. I hate crypto and it's for, it's for, I will go and push all the narratives against crypto, whether it is money laundering, terrorism and so on,

anti-crypto, anti-crypto, anti-crypto. And they've been very, very vocal against it and very, very acting against it. at the other side of the spectrum, the far right, they're like, oh, looks like people are embracing crypto in the US and they are close to our thinking, so we should be pro-crypto. And it turns out that the far right has had a lot of difficulty to fund their campaign, to go talk to banks, to fund their campaign.

So when they hear about own the bank, pawn the bank, be your own bank, they're like, yeah, we'd love to be her own bank. So today the far right is like, yeah, crypto, why not? and having the far right saying crypto, why not, makes the left say, like, crypto definitely not. And so at the middle ground, like the rights and the conservative right or the central right are like, so crypto is good for innovation in business. So we should be pro-blockchained, but at the same time, we don't want to associate ourselves too much with the far right, but we want to differentiate it from the far left and the left.

See, this is the problem. It's become something hard to. This is the problem that I'm talking about, though, is that like people place it on the spectrum. from either left or right, and they don't talk about the actual, like, technology. And so, like, one word, what we haven't even mentioned is cypherpunk values. Yeah. And I think cypherpunk values are quite apolitical, even though a lot of people in the cypherpong community have...

Oh, Josh. I said it's hyperpolitical, actually, yeah. I disagree. I think... Depends how you define politics. One of the biggest issues in our entire society right now is how our data is handled. And it is something that I think everybody in the world can agree that, like, they want their data to be more private. They want their data to be

better protected. Actually, most people don't care. This is surprising kind of like almost no one actually cares. I mean, nobody wants to be inconvenienced. They care. No, but they don't even, I don't think it's even about the inconvenience. So kind of like, if you kind of look at, kind of like, what percentage of the population

kind of has a Gmail address rather than kind of say proton mail or something privacy preserving, which offers the exact same user experience at the exact same cost. I disagree that they're the exact same user experience because Gmail is integrated everywhere and like it's just easier to use Gmail. Proton Mail is a conscious choice that you have to make. You can't use like the G Suite, the single sign on.

And it's people just don't want to be in communists. If you make privacy easy, if you give people two choices and privacy is included in one of them and they're exactly equal, people will choose the privacy one. I'm not entirely sure because I've heard people say too many times I have nothing to hide. Like this is like it's not about You agree? Oh yeah, I mean I've had people say that Like multiple times

I talk to like my you know One of my brothers like You know You think about privacy He's like I have nothing to hide It's fine But you have to But you like

When you put the Everybody's been affected by data leaks In some way Like if you talk to people About what they get in their email inbox People will start ranting They'll be like Oh I get so much junk mail

It's like such a pain in the ass But if you talk to them about like Oh you can have a privacy email that creates like an alias that forwards to your address and you can delete it if somebody starts sending you junk mail. Like people, people are like, I've talked to a lot of people about that and they're like, how do I do that? And if it's too hard, they won't do it. But if it's an option, they want it. And like, there are so many ways that you can talk about how data is leaked that people that will grab people. And like that is one of the things that blockchain could potentially be really good for or potentially be really dystopian for.

Yeah, 100%. And that's go either way, right? Yes. And like if we end up being salonacentric and crypto, I think that it will be very dystopian. And I think if we end up being Ethereum centric, I think it'll hopefully veer more towards being like really ideal for data protection. But I think like if you grab people with that kind of narrative rather than like this is left or this is right, it's a lot easier to get people on board with that. I think it's really hard to get people to care. So kind of, if you actually, if you look at, for instance, say, VPN usage, right?

19 out of 20 people use VPN because they want to watch something on Netflix. That's not available in their region. No one uses it kind of to protect their private. Maybe 5%. It's right. I mean, everybody blocks them. Okay. Two weeks ago in France, we had a law that blocked every pornographic website because they had to enforce

specifically, very, very, very specifically to make sure that the people that are watching are over 18. So it was the best publicity you can bring to VPN. Oh yeah, well, I have to switch to a VPN. And you go to a porn website and it shows you like, hey, sorry, like the news now in France so you cannot show you the website because we don't want to enforce whatever thing.

So go talk to your politician to remove this stupid law or use a VPN. Okay, well, then people will use VPN. And you see a spiking news on VPN. have any kind of use start using a VPN, people don't use it to protect their privacy, typically. They don't use it to protect their privacy

because it's a pain in the ass. You have to learn how to use a VPN. And honestly, like, once everybody starts using a VPN, then companies start blanket banning those IP addresses that are associated with a VPN. And so it's actually like really useful to use a VPN that no one else uses because then the IP addresses aren't blocked. And as soon as somebody runs into

like a technical problem and they have to troubleshoot. They're like, this is way too much of pain in the ass. I don't care that much. Take my data, whatever. Yeah, you can get a VPN inside DAPNode. NOSISD-N. No, so the VPN is not. Oh, really? Nice. It will be doing both work, expanding the network, making more resilience. That's awesome. It's not known. Yeah.

And maybe let's talk about user experience, okay? I think this is kind of like the topic that's still missing kind of from the Ethereum Foundation Restructuring. So we already talked about transparency. see. And yeah, but kind of like the focus on user experience, and this is also kind of like the vein that Tomasht's talk was in, kind of like, look, how terrible this is to use, how can we find this acceptable? Okay, you're shaking your head. Oh, I, you know, I hate and I love this topic. I think we had a, oh, I mean, we had a, I cannot be extremely vocal on that front publicly because as a competitor to most of the wallet as a service

where you log in through a Gmail login. come off as an Accad Abstraction SDK. So for the past three years, the only onboarding that were visible in the space was like, hey, what's the service? Go put your email address

and then you get an MPC address. People are washing their hands. Like, we're non-custodial. Non-custodial, what does it even mean? We don't care. We don't take any responsibility. We just give you an address so you can do things with the address.

And what happened with the data of the users? Oh, we take every... but don't even look at the terms of the condition, nobody look at it. So we had three years of this being pushed at scale on various projects for retail. One time addresses with maybe one single NFT, one single year, C20, blunting the state at the end of the day for the EVM, really bad onboarding, no interactions cross products, bad pricing, but everything. And at the end of the day, you have an address to just store one thing that you're not even going

to use any time. And you still have to go through the old steps of just buying the crypto, getting the crypto on the address, doing the thing. At the same time, we were pushing hard for ACAT abstraction and trying to figure out the standards and having a lot of trouble with the standards, a couple of competing EIPs and things. Now we have to realize that, no, the ACAD abstraction was the right way all along, and we have EIPs in the two digits that we're already talking about that seven years ago.

so we we left the lane open for what a service to chime in and give a poor experience that we now have to over-engineer to counteract. It's really bad. It's really bad that we had this. But like both the two side of the spectrum, two competing projects, like Circles is doing a kind of fraction, Waltcoin is doing a kind of fraction. Like, okay, everybody is doing a kind of fraction.

Even the very successful product like Polymarket is are doing a kind of abstraction their way. So look, like, I can abstraction is the way this is how we should have done it in the first place instead of being stuck in a second best with a wireless service with not privacy preserving logins in the first place. That's really bad. So what you're kind of a proponent of is kind of having a smart account that kind of you have different logins for. And kind of, we can also talk about cometh here.

So kind of like what you guys provide is the solution to kind of integrate. kind of let pass keys hold private keys, right? So I can kind of have a pass key that kind of controls my smart contract. My dream scenario would be that every single application on the blockchain would have a smart account for each of their users. To be fair, like these are upgrades that are either have just been integrated into Ethereum or are coming. So like I don't know specifics, but like the R1 curve is something that is being integrated

next time or next upgrade and that will be something that will be enabling to pass keys and account abstraction. there was just a big unlock in Pectra that was 7702 that allows delegation. So smart contracts are about to get a lot better and once wallet to integrate this, these applications. Applications have to integrate it.

You go on any applications and the application tells you like, hey, you're a new user. Cool. Here is your smart account. Just delegate to this smart account for the sake of this specific transaction. I'm going to handle the gas fees for you because I'm being paid for the value

that I'm bringing you. So I have one smart account per application. that's great. At the end of the day, what happened in the past three years is that the major defy apps went on to say like, hey, should I use a wallet as a service? No, I'm going to build my own wallet. Okay. That was kind of bad. But I'm happy to hear that R1 is going to be integrated soon, like in the past, like new cryptographic primitives on the on the EVM has been really hard to push because initially the first new primitive that was integrated as, native contracts

where pre-compiles were not really used like the alternative ashes that the thing so the core devs were reasonably pushing against it

like what we do that's like we should have this on the on the on the on the roll-ups first and see if it flies and if it flies we should get that in

I commented a lot on the EIP 1271 for R1 ComF has been one of the first to implement the verification of the R1 signature in solidity

and contributing to the different steps of optimization. At the end of the day, pass keys are a hack around WebOfen to have people sign in a way that they are in control of their keys. I think it's right now the best, second best thing that we have. We cannot accept that the average Joe is going to install a wallet, not down 12 words and learn the new security modules.

They are already socially trained of using their biometric on their phone a lot, and safekeeping things in the enclave is good enough for the credit card, so it should be good enough for a key that activate a smart account. And it's so smooth to onboard people this way. It's so hard for a wallet of the service and what is to make a business on top of it, but who cares? Like people are already equipped with the devices for the pass keys. So only non-pass keys, it's a very good way to sign.

I mean, I totally agree. And kind of we heavily rely on your pass-key solution for Metri, the kind of the Circles wallet. and I have been complimented on kind of like easy onboarding many times at this conference, but I have to say you need a password manager. So kind of if you don't use a password manager, you're in trouble, right? Kind of like pass key. And I think a lot of people don't understand that.

That's kind of a bottleneck. And obviously you then again, and obviously you can choose kind of your password manager yourself, but kind of there's a limited number of options. I'm going to say this is another place where I go back to people care about data private if you make it easy. Like if you ask most people if they use a password manager who have iPhones, they say what's a password manager? They're using a password manager. They just don't know that they're using one. You just have to build it in.

And they will use these things as long as you build it in and make it easy. That's the point with pass keys. Like the pros question we get when we push pass keys to a new customer, ask us themF is like, what is the recovery process? So the re-recovery process usually is either your password manager. And honestly, it's really hard to encompass all the different hiccups that you end up working with on supporting all the different password managers. And I think this is something we did very good.

But anyway, if people don't have a password manager, like you don't show one password or whatever guard and so on, by default, the manager of the enclave is the OS. So you end up with the OS managing the OS managing the, the enclave, so it boils down to Google encrypting and safekeeping your enclave. So you rely on your Google login to get back your pass key. So what is the default recovery method? Well, the recovery method of your Gmail account.

If you're on iPhone, what is the default recovery method? It's iOS, ICloud. So at the end of the day, the pass key belongs, not it belongs to the user, but it's being handled by the OS and those big cooperation. that already equipped everyone. So it's very hard to bypass them. But indeed, if you have one password and you want to save your pass keys inside,

it will definitely work with commerce. What are the kind of like, if you had a wish list for the coming 12 months, kind of these are the concrete UX improvements. Kind of we need to kind of have real users, kind of use these things. So kind of top of my list would actually be better on and off ramps. So kind of making it easier to kind of, because currently kind of the default way is kind of going via centralized exchange, right?

But in principle, this shouldn't have to be the solution. And within Europe, we kind of have kind of identifying your wallet with an eye ban and then kind of you can do the same in Brazil and so on. And I think that would open up kind of the market by a very large degree. What are your things that kind of you wish kind of we would adopt or see in the next 12 months to kind of increase actual adoption by actual people? I would say a lot of it's around wallets because people are really uncomfortable holding their own keys. And so like this account abstraction issue and the things that are being enabled is just going to be like a huge unlock for people. Nobody wants to hold. You know, I gave, I onboarded someone onto Metamask, a friend of mine, a non-crypto-native person,

and I gave him this 12-word seed, and I was like, write this down, do not show it to anyone, keep it safe, do not lose it. And next time we were on FaceTime, he picks up this 12-word seat. Look, I still have it. I still have it. And I was like, no. So, yeah, I think. And they had the NSA, look, it was like, oh, my God. It doesn't cross people's mind that, like, I shouldn't show it.

on camera. It's also kind of like people have ledgers, but kind of you know the little card that it comes with kind of like right down you. Most people actually keep that card next to the ledger, which kind of because it comes in the box, right? It fits in the box, so it's, yeah.

These are, they made it too ergonomic. Yeah. The EAP 1271 R1 Curve Support will definitely be really good for that. Oh. We're good for really good for the adoption.

I mean, to answer the initial question. It was definitely on my wish list, so yeah, thank you. Now, I've been in the space for quite a while now, so I try to be the man in the mirror and try to embody the kind of changes. So my current occupation at bringing the adoption, like my small contribution, is trying to distribute the cheapest, most efficient way

to get a custodian with an opt-out of kicking out the custodian. So this is where I stand today. I'm trying to expose a custodian infrastructure that is really cheap, really easy to integrate and so on. That is like an abstraction first, and that you get option to pick different keys. And if at some point you feel more comfortable

using a ledger as a signer on top of a smart contract or on top of an alternative L1 to Ethereum, like, yeah, go for it and have it. Like we're trying different ways to own both different people and having a custodian in the loop at first is an extremely good way of getting swift onboarding. You get an eye ban, you get to buy. Buying stable coins with credit card

would be also something really cool on the wish list. Because currently, like you either go with a centralized exchange, so you have to create an account and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you get stuck into the, oh, wow, there's trading, there's leverage trading and so on. And you get into the rabbit hole. Or you go with an on-ramp service that takes credit card. The fees related to this on-ramp is usually pretty high.

You need to go through the old KWAC and so on. While it should be looming really closely that we will be able to buy stable coin with credit card. I have another wish list item. Yes. 95. I would say even higher than 95. 99% of this space is people extracting money and getting scammed. And there is like a 1% that people are advertising.

They're like this cool technology. Like come put your money with me. and then they extract that money. It is so easy to get scammed in this industry. You interact with a contract, and a legit contract looks the same to you as a scam contract. And so have you ever used Rabby Wallet? Rabby Wallet is amazing for this.

Yeah, it makes you go through all these checks. It's like this contract was created yesterday. Does this look legit to you? And I really hope that that becomes more of a feature, like all of these built-in rail that keep people safe who maybe don't know what a legit contract looks like.

This is also one of the main things kind of like we're building with safe right now kind of like making sure no one ever signs anything that they don't understand because I've blind signed many times. Everyone does it. Kind of like independently verifying the payload.

It's impossible if it's not something super, it's not something super, super simple or kind of you're very dedicated. Obviously you should be very dedicated in certain scenarios but kind of fact of the matter is people kind of people don't do it and I mean we've seen this time and time again

so kind of like having a human readable and interpretation of what you're signing is changing the change in the internet ideal this is the kind of social change that we can embody in the ecosystem like look guys you are asking yourself the question before having unprotetic sex

sex. So before doing something weird on the internet, before signing something weird, like you should have a look. Like ask a couple of questions. Take a look at the in the blockchain. Even I can. Internet hygiene. Yeah, I consider myself quite an advanced user. But like when the bybit hack happened, I was like, I have no idea how to conduct a safe transaction that like I know is legit. So I had to do all this research. And now I use like two different tools when signing a safe transaction because I'm like, all right, I got to make sure that it's actually going to the address that I think it's going to and I got to make sure that all the data is really scary. Yes.

Josh, you didn't get you one wish item. So kind of like, I agree. I agree with everything that was said. And I, yes, I think having tools for making it easier for collectives to also take part in crypto, I think is like one thing that I would love to see. And one just out there thing, I think is to. We need some sort of education for people about a lot of this stuff. I think part of the reason is that people are so there's no like standard technological education.

Like what I know about technologies is shit I read on the internet. Yeah. We need something better than that. I think those are fantastic closing words. Thank you so much for participating in this panel. And yeah, we'll be back next week with a regular episode. All right. See you in can.

Thank you.