Epicenter - Learn about Crypto, Blockchain, Ethereum, Bitcoin and Distributed Technologies - Gabriel Jiménez: Petro – The Crypto Project That Tried to Free Venezuela

Episode Date: June 10, 2020

In late 2017, Gabriel Jimenez was approached by the Venezuelan presidency and asked to create a national digital currency, the Petro. Although very much against the regime, Gabriel saw this as a chance to save his country which was on the brink of economic collapse. A new currency that would move freely over an open network, like Bitcoin. And the government would not be able to control it. So he agreed. Things didn’t go as Gabriel had envisioned. Months later, Gabriel almost paid with his life when he was held at gunpoint by military guards in the President’s palace. He was accused of being a traitor to the government and was forced to hand over the project, which still hasn’t taken off. Last year he fled to the US to avoid being arrested and has since been granted asylum status. He is passionate about cryptocurrency and his country, and is working on a new way to combine the two. From the safety of the US, Gabriel is finally able to share his side of the story and wants to set the record straight on why he did what he did.Topics covered in this episode:Gabriel’s background growing up in VenezuelaGabriel’s return to Venezuela from the USVenezuela in the pre-Chavez daysLiving in Venezuela during Chavez’s ruleThe introduction of crypto to VenezuelaThe Maduro regime and how things got worse from thereWhen the government turned on Gabriel and his teamKnowing the risks of this projectThe current state of the PetroHow things could have gone differently so that Petro could have workedEpisode links: The Coder and the Dictator - Gabriel's first interview with the NY TimesThe Petro WebsiteThe Petro - WikipediaGabriel signing the documents on Live TVGabriel Jimenez TwitterThe Social UsThis episode is hosted by Sebastien Couture & Sunny Aggarwal. Show notes and listening options: epicenter.tv/343

This is Epicenter, episode 343 with guest, Gabriel Jimenez. Hi, welcome to Epicenter. My name is Sebastian Cuo. Today, our guest is Gabriel Yamenez. Gabriel is the creator of the Petro, the Venezuelan cryptocurrency. So the Petro was created in late 2017, early 18, right around the ICO boom and was a highly politicized Venezuelan project to create a cryptocurrency that was. would be backed by oil prices or oil reserves in Venezuela. And Gabriel was approached by Venezuelan government to create this cryptocurrency.

And he saw within that an opportunity to change his government, to change his country from within. Of course, it didn't quite play out that way because in the end, the government clamped down on the project, or at least clamped down on him and took the project in their own hands and took it in their own direction. But throughout all this, Gabriel remained motivated and wanting to bring change to his country went until the very end and almost risks his life to bring this project to fruition. He is now living in the U.S. where he was able to seek asylum and is working on other cryptocurrency projects with a goal to help the people of his country. This episode is a little long.

It goes for about an hour and a half. In the beginning, we spent a lot of time talking about the history of Venezuela and the political situations that led him to the point of creating a cryptocurrency for his country. And towards the end, we went into the sort of final moments when he has got to sign the contract and sign everything over to the Venezuelan government. and is held at gunpoint by military police. But I'm not going to spoil it, so I'll leave it there. After the interview, Sunny and I talked for an extra 20 minutes to share our own thoughts

about the interview and discuss what's happening in Venezuela now, since the country is not in very good shape with oil prices being so low. And we also spent quite a bit of time discussing the situation in the U.S. right now, which by all accounts is not very good. If you want to hear that conversation, you can do so by signing up to Epicenter Premium. Episenter Premium gives you a number of benefits. One, you get to hear these debriefs after the interview. You'll also get access to some host roundtables that will release once in a while whenever there's something important that we think we should share with

you and talk about. You'll also get access to some bonus content that we release from time to time when we go to conferences or when we record episodes about project updates and things like that. So if you want to sign up for Episenter Premium and support the show and get to hear all this great content, you can do so at premium.competor.tv. And now here's our interview with Gabriel Jimenez. So we're here today with Gabriel Jaminas and he is the creator of Petro, but not actively working on the project anymore, which we'll get into in today's episode. And so I first met Gabriel a couple months ago, I hosted this event in San Francisco called MacroWTF, and we've released a couple of the panels from that event as past episodes. But Gabriel came and talked at that event,

and he had this really amazing story, and I knew we just had to have him on Epicenter soon. But we had to wait a little bit because there was a media block because of, you know, there's an article that came out in the New York Times, and so we needed to wait for that to come out. But that article just came out a couple weeks ago. You should definitely go check it out. But now that that's out, we're glad to have Gabriel on the show. So Gabriel, thanks for coming on. Thank you. And thank you for waiting. And thank you for the invitation to the band. Like I was mentioning a year before, that changed my life. A lot, I was completely destroyed on the press over there in Chicago waiting for my paperwork to be able to work. And right that day, the day before coming here is when I got my paperwork.

and well, the table was set and was able to stay here on the Bay and I started working on the things that I'm passionate about. So you're living in the Bay Area now? Yes, in Oakland. I was also, as I said, Blachshane Week, I think I missed your talk, but I was staying in Oakland and it was like a really neat kind of place. I think I heard on the Charlie Strom podcast that you're working with Reserve now? I'm supporting Reserve, yeah.

As you know, they are focusing on hyperinflationary countries, Venezuela, one of them. The reasons that I was working and creating projects in Venezuela related to tech and related in particular to cryptocurrencies is because of the potential that, as we know, cryptocurrencies had in Venezuela. And I think that very much reserve has taken the risk to actually try to develop and and focus on developing tools, particularly for the Venezuelan context, being a Bay Area company that they don't even have a Venezuelan on their team, but they were focusing on the big problems that Venezuela had. So I decided to support them, basically, because it has been what I was working on, and the

potential of a product like theirs had with the Venezuelan people. But I'm mostly focused right now on creating a project on my own. That is a marketplace that is focused on providing jobs to Venezuelans. It goes beyond what financial freedom that cryptocurrencies allows you to. I'm trying to provide dignified jobs. Well, create a tool that is able to match dignified jobs for the Venezuelan people. So they don't have to be dependent of either the government or anyone that is subsidizing something in particular,

but that they can get a living on their own. So using the same fundamentals on technology and crypto payments in order for them to receive the value of their work, but also with their own work, being able to afford their rent, being able to afford their food, their medicine, that is something that is lacking in the Venezuelan economy nowadays. So could we backtrack into how you got involved with all of this? And like, you grew up in Venezuela, but you actually were, from what I read, you were living in the U.S., and then you decided to move back to Venezuela in 2015, I think.

Can you talk a little bit about what inspired you to go back there and, like, try to start solving these sort of problems? My college years back there in Venezuela, I always was very active politically. It was part of a generation over there in Venezuela. That is the 2007 generation. And we had many troubles and protests against the Chavez. Back at the time, I created a foundation trying to help unite the people to create projects, create projects that helps everyone. That's when I was in college.

So my plan was to go to the US, study, prepare, and go back to Venezuela because what I wanted to dedicate my life was to actually find solutions that affects our life, as you know the whole crisis that is over there in my country. When I went over here to the US that I landed in Boston, I was studying over there at Harvard, some specialization in negotiation and financial accounting and statistics. my plan was to go back. I didn't know when, but I knew that I was here in the U.S. to prepare myself, to learn, to work, and then to go back. That's the reason while I'm here in the U.S. I started working after my specialization, I started working at the U.S. Congress. Actually, while I'm in the U.S. Congress, I'm working from a congresswoman, Liana, that is the biggest district. I mean, it's a district that has the most Venezuelans in the U.S.

So that's the reason that I decided to work with her back in 2014. I actually promoted within her office the first sanctions to the Venezuelan officials that were violating human rights that particular year. The government killed over 100 people, particularly young Venezuelans that were protesting once again in 2014. And in 2015, happened something unique on the Venezuelan modern history. that for the first time since Chavez got power in 1998, the opposition won an election for a public office or for a major power that in this case is the legislature. So it's the equivalent to U.S. Congress. For us, it's the National Assembly. I actually was renewing my visa in Mexico back at the time.

But when I saw that the opposition won, I thought, as many Venezuelans, a new hope was over there for change. For the first time, the Congress had a lot of power. But besides the power that Congress held, it was the Venezuelan people that wanted something different. I didn't know how the political conflict would end up happening. But the matter of fact that the Venezuelan people wanted change, it was a clear sign for me that it was a moment to go. and support that movement of change. I didn't have any plan. I actually went back to Miami,

stole everything that I had. I was married at the time. My wife support me because since the beginning, I told her that was the plan. And, you know, we, as crazy people, we saw everything we had in Miami, closed my office over there, and went back to Venezuela without even a plan.

I just knew that I wanted to promote to change, that was incubated. on the Venezuelan society. What I realized that many of my friends from my generation of 2007, they were fueling to politics. And there were many brilliant people

into politics and fighting for public offices and for all the political battles that are needed, and particularly in such a complex and corrupt countries as our. But what I learned here in the US was that big countries are made by big societies, by strong entrepreneurs, by innovators that are able to escape that political conflict and to actually build and challenge what is actually thought as only possible.

So I thought, hey, with everything that I have learned and with so many people already fighting on the political side, I had already a digital marketing company and I thought that I could turned it into a tech incubator and actually from incubating new projects and tech projects, I could actually bring solutions to the Venezuelan society and of course access the company, but building solutions for the Venezuelan society. So that was my thought and that was the reason that I went back. What was it like growing up in Venezuela, you know, pre-Chavez before he came into power in the 90s? Like give us a sense of what kind of changed the country went through in, you know, years or something like that. When Chavez came to power, I was eight years old. So the majority of my

experience from before Chavez got to power is, you know, for investigation and from my early memories that I was just a little shot. However, the 90s and the late 80s were a moment of demise on economic crisis in Venezuela, tons of corruptions already happening. in the country and a lot of division and a sentiment of anti-establishment was within our society. Actually, Chavez tried to make a coup on the early 90s, and he becomes widely popular for trying to make a coup to a Democratic elected president, which is crazy that people are supporting a military coup that is going against the Constitution. But the people was tired of their politicians, was tired of the country.

corruption and was tired of whole the economy was being handled. So after Chavez is released, and Chavez is actually released because the very next president after the one that Chavez tried to do the coup, release him because he was so popular and he wanted to gain public favor, release him. And Chavez was this anti-establishment figure. He wasn't from the two traditional political parties in Venezuela that they were at a day and Copay, it's very much here in the US, the Democrats and Republicans. So he was a complete outsider claiming to the Venezuelan society to reform the state to

eliminate and crush corruption that a new system is needed that is by the people and for the people. And if you hear his speeches, back in 1996 and 1997, 1998, the Chavez that you see, it's basically comparable to the speeches of Obama. I'm not lying on this. So if you hear his speeches and you say, well, that's the reason, you know, many people like him. You know, he was a very charismatic person.

And what he was saying was directly connected to the hearts of the people. And because of the sentiment that the Venezuelan society had, they overlooked the authoritarian characteristics that he had. Because a few years before, he tried to make. make a coup. So he was no saint on that end. But Chavez was a widely popular in figure. Venezuela was in the midst of the biggest crisis back at the time. Also because of the oil barrel, the price of the old barrel was declining. When Chavez got to power, it's not connected, but it is something to mention. When Chavez gets to power, the oil barrel price,

was at the lowest, and $8 per oil barrel. So that's the lowest that is the lowest. That's the lowest that has been. And Venezuela, that was dependent on almost 70% of the country revenue was because of the oil, was very dependent on the oil price. So all of this connected to, you know, a sense that is not that the country was pushing or was good. No, the country was very bad. And those were the symptoms. The sickness basically was Chavez. So Chavez is the result of the symptoms that the society had. But there is a change. When I was in my late teens, early 20s, around 2003, 2004, I was following the situation in Venezuela very closely. And myself and a friend had decided to invest in a Canadian gold mining company that was meant to mine gold in Venezuela.

Chris Alex? Yes. Exactly. So we were young and I even thought, hey, like we're going to invest in this company that is going to mine in Venezuela. Of course, as you know, knowing this company that didn't work out. But what we were really inspired in our young kind of ideals at the time, I think, is that Chavez embodied a character that was going to free the people, right? Like, he was a man of the people and he was going to liberate the poor Venezuelans, the uneducated. He was going to liberate the liberate those people and give them what they deserve, which was, you know, the money and the profits from Venezuelan resources. And then he was against and he was an agent of change and he was against the institutions that were robbing the Venezuelan people. And there was almost like

this divide that you talk about from our perspective. There seemed to be like divide between the working class and richer educated class. And I didn't get this. And I didn't get the authoritarianism until I moved to France and met Venezuelans, like actual Venezuelans, you know, people like you who left the country. And they were like, no, Chavez is a monster. And I was like, what? What are you talking about? This is a man who's going to like free the Venezuelan people. I think it's very relevant today, especially like with, you know, Trump and everything, that these anti-establishment platform that Trump ran on is kind of very similar to that of Chavez. All right, maybe Trump is is not, you know, like a working class person, but it appeals to a certain demographic, I think,

and that's what makes it so interesting and appealing. I agree. And to be honest, Trump is more like latest years, Chavez than early year of Chavez. And I would put you this example. Chavez got a coup on 2002, and he suffered a coup. He did. And the revolution will not de-televised. It's such a great documentary, yeah.

Exactly. And the third day, he came back to power. He was brought out by the people. He come back to power. You know, the biggest four private TV channels were the ones organizing partly organizers of the coup. Like many of the militaries of the Czech commanders military were part of the coup. And he's brought back to power. He goes out that night on the balcony of, on the, or equivalent to the White House,

that is Milafrodes. And we have a balcony that is named the Barclos. balcony of the people, he comes out with, you know, thousands and thousands of people sharing his name because he just got back to power right after being in jail. He comes back, and the people that were supportive of Chavez were mad. They were enraged because somebody tried to take their hero. Well, the U.S. tried to take their hero. I mean, this was the U.S. backed coup, is it not? The U.S. say that they didn't were backing the coup. It's of everyone to judge, but they supported the new government once that the new government came to power.

What is interesting is the government that came to power for the coup. And this new government actually eliminated the constitution, eliminated all the laws that Chavez and did, eliminated the Supreme Court and was chasing the supporter of Chavez and they were throwing out to jail and punching them. It was a witch-hound of what was happening there. And just to refer you whole different or how this Chavez character, how different was and how changed over time for several reasons. He came to the balcony of the people and he says that as to all his supporters to go back home in peace when his supporters were like looking for war.

He was calling for the whole country a reconciliation. He was acknowledging for the people that criticize him and that he would try to change their mind. But even if he can't, he would be his president. And, you know, it's like calling for a reconciliation of the country. After suffering such a hard coup, this is something that you don't expect out of that. And I'm not saying that he wasn't authoritarian and he had some very bad military characteristic, but that was the figure of Chavez in the front of the eyes of many people. And what is interesting, besides all of the corruption and the characteristics that the government of Chavez was built on,

that was this authoritarian, populistic figure of Chavez, the one that make all the rules. After 2005, in 2005, the opposition decided to not, to don't go to general elections for the Venezuelan Congress at the time. And they gave 100% of the Congress to Chavez. And they decided to don't go because they say that the elections were triggered. it was going to be, you know, they were going to illegitimize Chavez if they didn't go to the election. The reality of what happened is that Chavez got control of 100% of Congress. So you can imagine what will happen here if the U.S. Congress is 100% controlled by Donald Trump.

And to any president of the world, that is such dangerous thing to actually happen. What happened with the full control of the Venezuelan Congress? he got the full control of the Supreme Court. He got the full control of every major office. And he became kind of a monarch because the whole structure was already centered on the figure of Chavez. And now every government body was completely controlled by Chavez because the opposition didn't participate in that election. So that is sickening of what he actually right after that, he has so much power, he closed the head of a set away that was. the biggest private TV channel back at the time.

He started expropriating different medias and start crushing political leaders and putting him into jail. He becomes a person that was unable, an untouchable person that nobody could defy him because there was no ban on contrast. Just for example, in contrast, in 2002, the coup that he received, actually the Supreme Court said that there was no coup, that Chavez had no coup, that there was vacancy of power because Chavez wasn't there. That was what the Supreme Court said.

And actually, the same Supreme Court, like one year after, sanctioned Chavez for something that he said on TV. So there was balance of power, very similar to what is here in the U.S. But we gave him, like, the red carpet to be, hey, you can be as a authoritarian as you want because we are not going to fight our democratic institutions. So yes, the opposition had also responsibility on that, and allowing to an authoritarian guy that many people already knew to have such kind of power and such a big pocket that he had. Because not only in his term, they all went from $8 per barrel, but it went all the way up until $147 per barrel. And besides that increase on our oil revenue, he increased the debt.

of the country by 60 times. So you can imagine this whole context that is happening. And then when he is going to Cuba to treat his cancer, he knows that he is very sick. And he sits in a table and next to him is Maduro, that, you know, Maduro was like somebody on the political sphere, but wasn't like a popular political sphere

or many people thought that was going to be the Zadro. that was like the right hand of Chavez for so many years. And he sits over there and he tells to his support. At this point, the currency crisis hasn't happened yet. Not that it hasn't happened. There was still 17, 25, 35 yearly inflation. Capital controls were actually established in 2002, in the capital controls. And the capital controls over time were more strict.

At the beginning, were more light. But there was a crisis, but because we had so much oil money coming, basically Venezuela were kind of like living a borrowed life. Just to tell you this example, a painter. Latin America is a working class job that he paints houses. he would be able with, you know, his money and his salary to go on vacation to Madrid, and then he comes back to Venezuela with more money, because basically was subsidized everything, and they give you money in order to go, and then when he comes back, he buys a taxi, and he starts renting the taxi.

So that was, you know, the kind of crazy living that we have, particularly on the mid-2000s, like from 2005 up until 2010. We had that, even through we had the inflation and everything, but it's also because of the amount of revenue that we were having coming from the oil sector. And so when did the current, did it sort of correlate with the crashing oil prices that happened a couple of years ago? Not only that, but that is the reason that I was referring to how Maduro gets power. When Maduro gets power, Chavez asked to, his supporters that if he is sick, if he dies for any reason, something happens to him,

he asked them and ordered them to vote strictly for Maduro. And he gave a blade to Maduro in that moment. So he was like almost transferring power to Maduro. And this mythical figure that has been created that is unbeatable, electorally with tons of money, so charismatic with scoops and everything. And this mythical figure told his supporters to vote for Chavez. Then on March, 2013, Chavez died. And in 30 days, are the elections.

The elections that Maduro is a candidate. So basically, the whole country was still in a duel and he comes to power. But Maduro has no actual leverage and has no actually support from the Venezuelan society. from the different... He's not as charismatic as Chavez. It wasn't as charismatic, but also he was like... Chavez is the reason that he got into power. It was very hard for him to change his policies on every aspect.

So anything that Chavez said was basically like a Bible for him to follow because he couldn't defy his predecessor because his predecessor was the one that named him president, basically. His power comes from Chavez's legacy, basically. So you can't defy Chavez's legacy. Exactly. So not only that the price of the oil barrel collapse, that has nothing to do with Maduro coming to power.

But, you know, the whole debt that the country has created, the whole corruption scheme that has created, the whole no investing that money or saving that money for a hundred times or for being more productive, the collapse of the private companies because expropriating them and going against them because it was very easy for our money. us to import, everything of that is happening. Suddenly, we cannot get more debt, and the all revenue collapse.

And at the same time, Maduro cannot change the economic policies that were designed for $147 per old barrel, and with that amount of debt and with that amount of support. So internally, the Venezuelan regime had, you know, like so many directions. Maduro didn't control politically the party as Chavez did because there were so many different ways, and he found himself trap in some way, politically speaking, because if he removed one of the main policies of Chavez, he could have, you know, somebody from his party to actually counter him or to actually don't care about what he was saying. So he had the option to actually do it, but politically speaking was very hard for him to do it, which, because we didn't take the actions

that were necessary. Over the following years, 2013, 2014, particularly studying in 2014, inflation started to grow as the whole system is collapsing in 2015. With the price controls, there is scarcity of food and medicine, of toilet paper,

of many goods that are scarcity, because of the price controls were pegged to an official dollar that was basically non-existent because the government wasn't giving you official dollars and the people wasn't able to get them legally on the market. I mean, talking about this legally because the legal aspects are important on a real economy. Because we, for example, on the crypto, we always like, you know, Bitcoin is uncensurable.

It's, you know, completely free. But the reality is that when you think in a real mass adoption, when you're thinking, when you're thinking millions of people, on the financial institutions, on the corporations that make the imports into a country, you need to think that they need to comply. And they need to comply not particularly with Colombia or with the US. They need to comply with the law where they are registered because they are over there registered in Venezuela

and somebody will go if you don't comply and will shut down your business. Hundreds or thousands of jobs could be lost. and the whole investment of anyone could be lost. And if you're importing into Venezuela, your tariffs are denominated in Bolivars and everything is to nominate, their taxes are in that. And so that sort of creates a system

where even if this currency is inflating like crazy, it still makes everyone tied to it. You still need to have it in order to pay your taxes and everything. So at the end of 2015, there was a hyperinflation was starting kicking and the scarcity was in his top expression. And that's like one of the reasons that the opposition won by a landslide and their elections in December 2015.

I'm in talking that they won 113 deputies out of 186 or something like that. I forgot the complete the total number. but it was more than two-thirds of the Congress, which allowed the opposition basically to do whatever they wanted. But from the dead-go, the government tried to fight back. They name as a new Supreme Court, and that Supreme Court say that the people from the National Assembly two-debuttees weren't valid,

so they didn't have the two-thirds of the AN. I mean, there was a political conflict happening between a regime that is authoritarian and is corrupted and they are trying to hold on power. And there is this opposition that wants to get rid of that government as soon as possible and as fast as possible because that's what the opposition sees as a solution. That we all agree.

We all agree that the solution is removing Maduro from power and having a new government. But the reality that we need to face is that we cannot have a country divided. We cannot govern a country or enter or trying to claim the power. We saw many of the people that are over there. And that mistake and that conflict elevated the political battle and created a whole political crisis once again.

So, yeah, I mean, I'm sure we can, you know, we could talk for hours and hours about, like, you know, the political crisis that's happened. But let's try to focus in on sort of now how, what, was your calling of how you thought to solve the problem. And so tell us a little bit about why you thought cryptocurrency was a solution to the problem. And was cryptocurrency something that was already happening in Venezuela by the time you got there? Or was it still not, were people using it by that time or not? And how, if so?

starting to tell your last question you can basically check Google trends and see the keywords of Bitcoin or blockchain or crypto in Venezuela before December 2017 and you it's basically a small group of people but that is not even recorded on the Google trends like the actual numbers and on the whole much it was searched. There was a reason for that. Even by having the cheapest electricity of the world, as you want to know, the reason is that we, because we had capital control, many government officials were actually taking advantage of the lack of regulation. and were blackmailing people that either hold crypto, mine crypto, or work with crypto. And they were blackmailing them, accusing them of, you know, random rules that weren't directly connected,

but it's like you're affecting the electric grid or you didn't import this with a permit or you are violating the capital controls. many people thought because it is the common thing to actually in a corrupt system as ours and because of the capital controls that the industry was practically banned by the Venezuela regime. I remember in October 2017 that I went to a conference in New York. I was making an ICO over there in Venezuela and people, I was the only Venezuela on that comfort. Me and like two other friends and I was like the curious person. Like people are asking me about the inflation over there in Venezuela and also asking me,

hey, aren't you afraid that you're going to be detained or going to be in jail? Because the news and the stories about the crypto industry both externally and in certain, and internally in Venezuela was about the regime is against the cryptocurrency, which is partially not true. And why is partially not true? Because as an entrepreneur, when I dig dive into crypto. And again, I dig dive as an entrepreneur with a company with more than 20 employees that I have to actually look for the regulations before I decide to write random code on myself or something like that. Again, quote unquote, I'm not a coder.

I'm a lawyer. That is a misinterpretation on the New York Times article that they put me like that. But when I dig on the law, I realize and when I dig on the research, I realize that the Venezuelan regime hasn't actually made an statement related to cryptocurrency. Not the president, not the vice president, not the ministers. they haven't actually mentioned the world of cryptocurrencies. So it was impossible that the regime had an actual stance related to cryptocurrency. And what was happening was at a lower level that were basically cops and corrupt cops,

that is the most corrupt system of the world. You can imagine that there are many corrupt people. But that wasn't a political position. And it wasn't politicized. The opposition hasn't even talked about cryptocurrencies. They are fighting on the context of elections. They are fighting on the context of the Constitution on National Assembly that the government is saying for political rights. There are other hostels going on.

Cryptocurrencies are not a flag on the opposition either. So it's like a place that hasn't been held by any political party or political group in Venezuela. And that is a very good opportunity to try to persuade anyone to make them understand that it's a path that will bring benefits to the whole society. And why do I see crypto as a solution and how do I see them as a solution? Well, particularly, I was involved in crypto since 2014. I knew them from before, but at a personal level since 2014. then when I arrived back to Venezuela that I arrived with my ex-wife, she couldn't open a bank account because she was a foreigner.

We fought almost for a year to actually get her a bank account. The bureaucracy in banking in Venezuela is incredible. As it is everywhere. Yeah. My employee is earning dollars. I paid them in dollars back at the time. But initially, we were only three people

and my company, me and two other persons and the third really quick. But as we started to grow and we started to grow because we were working completely for our internal projects, investors from outside and also offering service to clients and size. As we

start to grow and we start to harm more people out of, just for example, out of 16, yeah, out of 16 employees, only one, had a bank account, a USDA bank account. which he was the one that I had to deposit to, and then he made like small trades with friends for the people when they requested.

So that was very complex to actually pay my employees. They had problems actually opening PayPal's account because they needed validation. The easiest way to pay them actually was through crypto. It was way more easier to pay them through. True cryptocurrency. And over time, there were, you know, the problems with the limits of the debit cards and the limits of the credit cards and the problems with the cash because of hyperinflation, if you see videos of how hyperinflation behaves in 2016, 2017 is crazy how it goes.

So cash became worthless. The limits of the debit cards, if you pay something on Friday night, you couldn't pay through, the next day or because of the limit. Credit cards limits were outdated, so nobody used credit cards over there. And so everything you had to pay through a wire transfer. You had to make a wire transfer for paying even a cap or to pay for groceries. It was completely crazy. So if you go, if you went to a liquor store or to a grocery store, you would see like a line

of computers where people would go and locking into their bank account and make a while transfer to the bank or to the Liport store. That is how things we're working on. Developing tech projects, I was involved with many developers and creative and, you know, my goal of finding solutions in Venezuela. And we started working on a POS system that would be able to connect to the financial system in Venezuela, and people would be able to pay directly through crypto and

will convert directly to Bolivars, pay to the merchants in Bolivar. So I started working on their project. I actually started doing some test with credit card. We advanced in that project for a few. Credit card was the biggest switcher, Venezuela, that is the system that interconnects different POS and the banks and credit cards. They have like 86% of the market in Minnesota. We started doing tests.

But because we are advancing on this, that's where I basically start to research on the legal context of what was happening on the industry. And as more research that I do, I find that because of what is happening on the industry, that is basically being blackmailed by the corrupt cops, we are not developing solutions. Venezuelan people are not developing solutions or the potential solutions that could be developed in Venezuela that are needed in Venezuela that you don't face these challenges here in the US aren't being done

because it's not possible to actually implement them at a scale. So at the same time, I realized, okay, this is not something that probably I would be able to solve myself. even through I really better me, but this is something that goes way beyond. Because there is this opportunity over here, even if we are not able to develop this POS system, we are going to basically eliminate the capital controls if cryptocurrencies are allowed. Because you have the capital controls that prohibit you to actually exchange your bolivars to

to dollars that are not in an official way, if out of a sudden you allow private money, you basically allowed the access to the international market and you are at the same time allow to any project being developing cryptocurrency to be basically implemented. So that would be a game changer and that is when we start to work in our strategy to work and to go out of the shadows. And instead of being hitting, instead of, you know, writing articles or more strategy was to go as public as possible. We were a company in Venezuela, the Wall Street Journal went to actually make a story about us because we were growing on the midst of the cows that we had in Venezuela. So we had certain authority over there in Venezuela.

And we decided let's use this and let's talk about crypto, not about our price. Let's talk about how cryptocurrency could be a solution for payments, whole cryptocurrencies could be a solution for saving, whole cryptocurrencies could be a solution for avoiding hyperinflation. And on pitching side, you have to understand that the Venezuelan regime, we had to be, cryptocurrencies had to be appealing for them. And in order to be appealing for them, they had a big problem back at the time in 2016, 2017. Like, it was their enemy, basically. That was a website named Dollar Today. That is a website that shows the price of the black market of the dollar.

Basically, what the way that we portrayed or speech on conferences, on the medias, and news articles over there in Venezuela was that with cryptocurrencies, people wouldn't need the U.S. dollar. And because they wouldn't need the U.S. dollar, the demand and the pressure on the dollar will decrease, and the economy will alleviate on the black market that is making that push and that is not being able to actually transact freely because it's subject because it's black market, it's subject to control. And so that's what the government got interested in, and that's why they reached out to you. That was my speech or our speech in different times.

At the same time, in order to not be alone, we started to gather. other entrepreneurs in Venezuela that were of the crypto industry back at the time. And it happens something magic that nowadays is completely different and what happens in many countries is completely different because we were all threatened to be in jail, basically. And that was a danger, an actual danger. There was no discussion about Ethereum or Bitcoin or Dash, whatever. We were all on the crypto industry. And we were all out there speaking about the benefits of cryptocurrencies could have in our country.

We gathered, so we basically created a community of entrepreneurs that were decided after we went out. Many other people were also coming out with their projects. And we created like a movement towards that. Because of that. And because of the whole big crisis of what is happening, Maduro regime, well, not the mature regime, the central bank, they realized that we are talking about the solutions to many of the problems that they have. And they wanted it to know what was actually happening with crypto. So they request me and other companies to make an explanation on cryptocurrencies at the central bank for a very small group, a technical group. There were some directors of the central bank at the time.

What I find out on that meeting that was particularly interesting is that the central bank knew that they were creating inner-garned money. They were doing the better system. And they knew the hyperinflation basically was created back then. So, for example, when we were explaining Bitcoin and so on and so on, they were like, hey, no, that's the antithesis of what we're doing. So they were looking at it like surprise and they very much knew the mistakes that they had. But because many of them had years and years on the central bank. What I realized over there is that even true, the central bank knows the mistakes that are not publicly. telling that they know that they are doing it wrong,

they are aware of the problems that they have. And they are actually, you know, interested in impossible solution. There was one guy that showed a video that they show a video of Chavez talking about the petrol. And he was saying to create an ICO of PEDA and Petro, there were a bunch of, you know, directors over there, but there was no one with political power actually over there. But when I see that video, I realize on my head that if this is actually pitch to the right people that is able to make the decisions and everything follows, follows, and we portrayed that is Chavez, the one that created these policies that cannot be changed, but Chavez is the one that is creating this tool that is changing the whole spectrum. is Chavez itself the one that is going to change

basically the legislation this will be the pitching that they will be able to internalize as okay, we can if we do this we need to because we will do it for Chavez and we will fix all of these problems

of the economy and will be an idea of Chavez if we if we apply it was that your idea or was that someone else whose idea was that to do that little mind trick. That was my idea. The same is that how I accidentally see that video on that central bank meeting.

And then because other people can contact me, Carlos Vargas can contact me because I was in the media, many people was contacting me. And when he tells me that he can show a deck to the BP, if I had a project and I mentioned and mention him, well, we can actually put this name and we can actually tell that in order to materialize Chavez idea, we have to make cryptocurrency legal. We are going to even make it for a non-profit. I mean, we are not going to charge a dollar or a bolivar in order to do it. That would be a pitch that they will basically suggest. And we made a small pitch deck of about nine pages. And we gave it to him. We literally were focusing on our different projects still publicly speaking,

trying to have a positive statement from the government related to crypto. And then after a conference in Venezuela that Maduro saw a Bitcoin mining machine and asked what was that. And he was told that was the feature of money that was blockchain. And he asked, hey, is this a Chavez idea? And somebody told him that yes. he actually approved the project without actually understanding

what cryptocurrencies or what blockchain what it actually meant why do you think that is what do you think that he just accepted it just because it was a Chavez idea? Yes okay

and not only because it was Chavez idea but was a Chavez idea that would fix all the problems of the economy that he was actually facing so you had the problem of hyperinflation you have the problem of payments, you have the problem of cash, and you would basically not need the US dollar if you have a cryptocurrency that is freely charitable all over the world. And this was like a sweet spot that is conceptualized by Chavez.

And it's like, wow, that is amazing. And they approve it without actually really knowing about it. And it's something that I say with complete confidence. And that's something that the New York Times validated with interviewing people that were close and government officials that were close to that. But not even like internally approving it, right? Like, you know, from the article, what I got was like he went on national television and said, we are doing this. How does that happen? Like, how does he like, without even having an idea of what this is,

just go on national television and tell everyone. This is the point. We have the biggest old reserve of the world. And like between the second and fifth, depends of the studies, are gold reserve of the war. So many natural resources. Only 30 million people. And we have the worst economic crisis of the war.

So as you may guess about it, the people handling the economy and making the decisions related to the economy, having all of these resources and being, you know, on this big crisis when we were like a very good nation, they are terrible at making policies, decision, are handling important topics. And they are actually handled like that. You can talk with many people that has work or has any to do, anything to do with the Venezuelan regime. What you would expect, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of people. bureaucracy in many areas, when it's, you know, the top person. If he feels that that is the right way, they just approve it. And they literally, you know, the three days, I was in Bogota, I changed my flight to the next day, and then I go back to Venezuela. They were asking me about what mining was. If mining was equivalent to have a U.S. dollar account and create that, if how many

peters there will be? Like, what was a blockchain? Like, I'm talking with the vice president, the minister of science. They literally knew anything, anything related to crypto. It was like when in that first meeting is that I realized they didn't actually understood what they just put. So they launched this crypto, they announced, you can, like this video of Maduro announcing this on television and he's very sure. of himself and he's very confident that this project will go through. Meanwhile, in the background, nobody knows anything. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. The only one that had the project on his mind

was me. And they were calling me to ask me, how was the project? Like, when are we going to launch it? How many petros are they going to be? How is going to be mineable or not? Why is it not going to be minimal? We want to mine it to have dollars. That were their thoughts. How is it trade? So is people in New Jersey going to be able to get it? They had complete no understanding about this. Given that opportunity, given that lack of knowledge and given the ignorance of what was happening, is when I realized this is an actual opportunity to create a blockchain explorer that actually oversees the government spending. If we are able to actually implement this crypto, particularly the petrol, besides the legalization of cryptocurrencies, we are going to be able to see how money is moved.

We are going to be able to identify who is moving which money from which government energy and a corrupt system as the Venezuelan one. That is incredible. And this is not something that I, if you see, I actually on December 22nd of that year, I made an speech at the Central Bank in Venezuela in front of the government, the economic government, because they basically opened me the doors to everything. I met with the president in his private house in Puerto Tuna, that is the biggest military base of Caracas. I had access to any minister or any office. They, they were. order to do whatever I demanded. I go over all the government regulatory bodies and they approve everything that I was saying because basically I had the blessing of the dictator because the dictator embodied that particularly on that December 22 that I went over there with a few Americans that we were talking on the central bank and talking to these people telling them, hey, we are going to fight corruption.

This is going to be transparent. People is going to be able to audit spending. This is what you're telling them. This is what you were saying. Yes. And not only saying, but that's what we were building. And that's what they were approving. And that's what the legislation on the other side that I was quitting.

Why were they approving this? Like, you know, why was the corrupt government sort of signing off on saying, yeah, we want more transparency into our corruption. Well, in Venezuela, basically, it's because of the populist guy said so. So people didn't understand very well what crypto were, but Maduro said that we have to do it. So because Maduro said that we have to do it, everyone was following on. Of course, I knew from the beginning that that was going to be a very small window, a very small window. a very small window that, you know, ignorance was going to remain.

For that reason, I strategically placed to launch the ICO by February 20th. This is, you know, you have been involved in crypto projects. So basically, we are like at 1% on December 3rd. We haven't even conceptualized any white paper or anything. You know, we were an office that we pay $40 per month. At the time, we have more than 50 people, but we basically had zero, but I pushed to put it on February because I wanted to implement it and to release it before they were able to hold it and to stop it. That was my bet. Basically, they actually tried to stop the project and they started to jeopardize the project.

And the one that was commanding basically all of that was the Minister of Finance itself. the one that was losing the grip and the power of the economy, because he wasn't even, you know, on the decision making on this. As you see Maduro approving the project or anything afterwards, he wasn't on the table because this was something that were brought by, was from Chavez and so on, and was approved. So by January, they started going, bringing, they, they ran a Russian team that they were scammers. They declare me, enemy of the state, and they declare... Sorry, who is this?

Russian team. I read about this Russian team. Can you disclose who they were? At the end of January, when I was going to publish the white paper, they tell me in the day before that I have to eliminate the authorship and I have to eliminate the technological part of the white paper, which basically will leave the white paper itself as a shelf and could be manipulated later on. And at least the authorship that it was a foundation will guarantee that we will deployed that day. So after it's signed by the president, the white paper and publicly say that it was John Venezuelans, the one that did it, I challenged the Minister of Finance and published the white paper with the authorship, with the authorship that we were or so.

To say, because that way, the next week, we would put it the technological part because that was what was promised to us. So it was like a guarantee that they don't steal the project that was ours. So when I published that, they sent me in the political police. They declared me enemy of the state to me and the foundation. And then they basically told me because the project was of the foundation, we weren't owners of the project anymore. So who declared you enemy of the state? It was the finance ministry that did it? No, the vice president, Tareka Lai Sami. So the vice president was on your side up until then. So what changed?

No, no. He wasn't on my side. He was over there when, you know, was approved and then explained to him the basics and then saw him when I went to the house of Maduro and in Forte Tijuana. But he wasn't particularly on my side. And actually the vice president palace is right in front of the minister of finance. So, and as you can imagine, there are like the two most corrupt people on the country. So actually, he declares me an enemy of the state because I challenge the ministry of finals. So the project wasn't ours anymore.

Basically, I knew that they would try to manipulate the project or to do something else. my strategy was well they have the ICU in about four weeks they need me they will not find anyone else that is going to be able to pull this project off in such a short time because they haven't done anything it's completely impossible that they do it that was my thought at the at one week after that they call me and they they tell me well I cannot be part of the project or either the foundation it has to be a Venezuelan company, but we have to compete with another team that they are not going to tell us who they are.

So my sources internally from the people of the superintendency told me that they were Russians. We, some team members, the only company of the different companies that integrated the foundation that said Jess was myself to actually put his name on it. And the reason that I did that, it was because I didn't want the project to fall and to be not implemented. Like, I already was involved into it and I didn't want it to fail. And after the first night, we go to a restaurant. I was waiting downstairs in the Ministry of Finance. And when we are dining on that restaurant, there is a Russian team eating and celebrating.

And it was like 11 p.m. And it was very late already. And it was weird to see like foreign people in Venezuela doing that. So we actually, hey, do you think this is people? We randomly asked them and they told us who they were. That they were there for doing the petrol. And we were like completely surprised

because the petrol was our project. We didn't have a contract or anything. But the petrol was our creation and our project. And they were telling us that they were doing the petrol. So they tell us their names and we decided to do our research about who they were. And there was a motto. There was a yoga teacher. There was a former fraudulent guide that was sanctioned by the US and the CME and Chicago for doing fraudulent transactions. So there were basically completely random people

and you know with no actual background on what they were going to supposed to do and they were there celebrating that they were going to do the picture you know the project that I was creating in order to fight this scheme

and that I announced that it was create this transparency and so on and the legislation that was underlined it so I create a bridge And I presented myself, I said that I didn't care that I wasn't anymore in the state, but I wasn't going to let this project die. And I went to the Ministry of Finance, to the Superintendency, and to the Ministry of Science, and I gave them a brief saying that those people were scammers. Those Russians were fraudulent.

They were fraudulent people, and they were scammers, the team that they were doing. They didn't react. They told me that I was jealous because there was a Russian team that was better than us. And that's how they reacted, which is completely nuts. So I actually tried to fight that back. And they actually tell me that is actually, okay, the Russian team desisted, is guys you are going to be the ones that are going to pull it off and finally going to implement it and deploy the project and so on. They told us to go to the vice president palace.

Over there, we give them the documentation, wallets, if we do adjustments to the websites and to the websites and so on, like for around eight hours that day, up until 8 p.m. and then in that moment around 8 p.m. arrived the Russians to the main room of the Vice President Salas. That is the Simone Bolivar room. That is where the ministries meet and television and they're making decisions and so on. And over there, they arrive and they arrive with champagne bottles.

And they start doing champagne showers in front of the Venezuelan seal and taking selfies. and they signed the contract on the development of the project. So right in front of our faces. I was over there with an engineer from another company, but that was working together with us. And it was unbelievable. They signed the contract that we were supposed to sign

and that we were signing it in a pro bono way. And well, then they came. and I told them, hey, what is happening? And they told me, well, no, they are doing the petrol. But it's a prey. You're telling them, no, don't worry. You're going to still be able to sell it. And I refuse to actually, I'm not going to sell something that I'm not doing because it's a fraud.

And that people is fraudulent. I already told you that as fraudulent people. They come out with a contract that they were offering money and so on. I refuse to sign that. And I told them, I need to actually, because I knew that I had that only moment to rescue the project. So after there is a collapse on the website that my friend is able to mimic the website on national television and so on, he comes back to where I was that I was negotiating with the main aid of economics of the country at the vice president palace. comes the chief of staff of the vice president that actually was indicted two days ago

by the US, by the Department of Justice, Hosselit Ramirez. And he came out screaming and ordering our detention and ordering us that we are not leaving and if we try to communicate with a cure war, we were going to be sent to the Hesim. he ordered us to make several other corrections that he wanted and that we would only be free whenever he wanted if he wanted. And he ordered the guards to come, the military guards that protect the military palace. And they pointed us on the guns. And they told us that we actually had to, if we tried to do anything, we knew very well what would

happen. So all of that happened in that moment. So the military police comes in and basically under the pressure of being shot, the threat of being shot, you're told now, okay, you have to do what we want. Yeah. Finish us. Yes. Exactly. Exactly that.

And basically it was because I was denying myself to actually sign that document that they were offering. A document that was basically saying that I was going to sell a project. that was a fraud, and that I was already telling them that these people was a fraud, and I wasn't going to be able to sell it. Did it occur to you at any point that this could happen, that things could escalate? I mean, like, you know, you're dealing with gangsters, basically. I mean, if you sort of extrapolate yourself from this story, like, you're effectively dealing with gangsters.

Did it occur to you that, you know, when you started working on this project in the beginning, that at any point your life might be in danger? Yes, completely. But this is a question that I faced internally myself. There is a slim opportunity, a very slim opportunity, to actually change something that will do huge for many people that will eliminate the capital control that could create something. For more than 20 years, nothing else has worked.

You have fought against. you have rallied, you have protested, you have worked in the US against it. You came back to the country to actually, with the hope of change, those hopes have deflated. There was a slim opportunity with my, not my hands, but with my team and us, to try to actually do something that would change the life of millions and we dream about it and we said, just let's try. This was a big discussion team. I lost a partner when we decided to actually try this, but it was a risk that it was worth for the possibility of change. Because I'm not the kind of person, and that's the reason that I'm here on the Bay.

I'm not going to wait for the politicians to bring solutions for Air Force us. They have failed us greatly in 20 years. They have failed us greatly. And I'm not a guy of guns. I'm very skinny. I cannot even fight. But I can try to put ideas out there and try to build a solution

for problems that people are failing. And I'm not going to stop either way, even while I was in Venezuela. I'm not going to be saying, like many Venezuelans does. I'm just going to wait for the government to change to build something. No. People need now.

People need solutions now because that stupid government is affected them. It's creating this whole crisis, and people are suffering right now. So I'm not just going to turn my eye to the other side and just say, no, this is something that the Venezuelan government will need to be part of. And no, it's something that is completely for the people.

I will be the first one to actually try to help the people of my country. I'm not going to wait for anyone to leave because I'm even disappointed with the people of the opposition and with the leader of the oppositions of my country. Because they are with the worst government in history and on the history of Venezuela that has created this economic crisis, they haven't been able to overtake power. You know, so how bad is our opposition? Are they going to always play the victim? Oh, no, is that the Venezuelan government is really bad? Is that they are terrorists? Yes, we know they are.

We know that they're inconsters, such as I knew, and I'm responsible also for all the criticism, for the collateral damage that I caused for the manipulation that was caused because of the project, because I tried to do something else that was completely, completely difference. But by my actions and by my ideas, I created a project that ended being used for manipulation of the Venezuelan people. And that's something that is a pain and that I, you know, every podcast, every news, every thing that I do or every story about me, there are always going to be Venezuelans saying, you know, that I was being paid, that I stole billions, that I paid you or you are doing a PR campaign. And I have to accept that because it's completely understandable of people that have been oppressed and repressed for so many. and they see a guy that, you know, the tool with whatever intention that I had and as being used to manipulate and oppress people, that is something that I carry on myself. But either way, it's not something that is going to stop me to keep trying and to keep building. And even through my failures and my lessons, I will try to, from outside, bring solutions to the Venezuelan society. That's the reason that I'm really happy that I landed here in the Bay Area.

Thanks, Sonny again, for that invitation that really changed. From that moment, I literally came with, you know, a backpack and my clothes that I had on because you remember that we bought the ticket from one day to the other, and then the other day was coming back. And I was invited, hey, do you want to stay with us for a week and hang and see what project you're trying to do, and we can help you out and you can buy us? and we started to collaborate like that. And I've been trying to bring people together

that is looking to build for the present and not for the future of Venezuela. You know, that makes a lot of sense. Like, you know, it was a risk, but it was like the opportunity that you had and you had to seize it when it was there. And so what's the like current state of the project now? So, you know, you managed to get out

and now you have asylum in the, US. Did the project ever actually launch? Who's running it now? Is it still ever going to be launched? Do you keep up with it in that sense? Well, the project itself was kind of like held in a standby. And then because they didn't want the project to actually happen.

But they publicly already said that it was going to be the pillar of the economy. So they try later on to pivot the project and something that they would be able to control and something that they will be able to do whatever they wanted. But they have failed to actually launch a functional product related to the petrol. They have relaunched it several times. And again, people like to say that it's a project for money laundering or, corruption or whatever, but, or avoiding sanctions or so on, there are other cryptocurrencies that are much better fit and has the liquidity if the government wants actually to do anything of that

and that they don't need to ask permission to anyone because they are the law. So the project, what ended up being used for is basically manipulation, telling to the people, hey, yes, we're going to pay you half of a petrol if you subscribe to the fatherland card. And that is $30, according to their imaginary. And that's what they use it for. And that has been the way that they have been publicly telling to the people, selling this idea to the people every time with the petrol, okay, we're going to give you half of a petrol.

sent the half of a petrol to a portal and people then try to trade it. It's probably not even on a blockchain, right? There is, but they have pivoted on it several times too. So it's mostly an SQL database more than a more than a blockchain. They sometimes habilitate a blockchain explorer or explorer. They make like a clone of dash on their last. development that they did, but they haven't actually deployed and implemented a public blockchain or anything closely similar to that.

Do you think that there was a world in which the Petro might have worked? So, like, let's say, let's say if it was backed by OPEC, do you think that could have been, the problem was that it was overly associated with Venezuela. And I think part of what led to the failure of it was when the U.S. sanctions came down on it. And that kind of like was the nail in the coffin for the project. So how could things have gone differently in your mind that like maybe this could have worked? I would have implemented our project on the first week of January. We would have implemented that on the parade.

There was not actually back to the oil barrel. There was a price of acceptance for the state. And the actual value of the petrol itself was that the state was backing it. Even if it is the worst state possible and the one that you lack trust and is the muscular up and everything, he would always accept the price of the petrol at the price of the old barrel. They are not giving you all the, they are not paying you, but he's accepting that price. That means that all taxes are paid for,

all companies that are extracting all are being paid and on petrol could be paid by petrol using that preference, that services, that any tax or any government contract could be paid and anything would be always accepted to that price. That was the actual value and that was encouraged for the whole country to actually do so. The potential market of what the petrol had is bigger than it's still now. the whole cryptocurrency industry had only with the Venezuelan people. That for me was very valuable. And if it would have been for the Minister of Finance coming in by late January and trying

to stop the project because he was kind of still figuring out by late December, early January, what was that about? We would have been able to set it. I don't think that the actual peg with the oil would have actually made any difference. And actually, there is a confusion with people saying, well, the petrol is the old. You're going to give me the oil. Maduro trying to explain the petrol created that confusion. If you see the white paper, that is what you need to see if you're analyzing a cryptocurrency,

there is no actual peck to the old barrel. The main reason for that, it was unconstitutional against the law. and I didn't want to compromise the future of my country by creating technically futures of the petrol for creating revenue to the Venezuelan government that is going to end up in correct pockets. So basically, if they are issuing one petrol because there was going to be a limit of 100, if they're issuing one petrol, they are forcing themselves to actually accept it to the price of the old barrel. So that is basically the way that we design it and that would have worked, particularly in a context where the Venezuelan government wouldn't be a sanction as it is today and the petrol wouldn't be a sanction as it is today. Because besides the technological facts, still the sanctions play a huge role, which makes you question also, was it sanctioned because was there fear of the status quo of the US dollar? by having a currency that could have rallied support from other states that are not particularly aligned with the US and could use this currency without any intervention of the US. And therefore, in order to prevent that happen, they actually sanction it before it was even born.

So that makes you question, and these are valid questions that we want to have. But again, from the U.S. perspective, that was a tool for manipulation, a tool for corruption, and that's the reason that the sanction. And thanks to the sanction, actually, is the reason that I was able to escape from the project. On March, that I was trying, after I told the president, that the Russians were fraughtling, that they weren't doing anything, that we had the project already done, and I tried to fight a couple more weeks from February to March. And then on March, they threatened me again that I couldn't speak against the project

or the government where I would be thrown out in jail. I was looking for ways to go out, and when the project was sanctioned, I used the sanction to say that I wasn't able to keep working on the project because I had it wasn't the company of the private, but I had an American company and I had family in the US and I couldn't keep working in the private. That's how I pull out of it.

Well, thanks so much for coming on and telling us your story and all this interesting, also kind of historical aspect to this project and how it came to be and everything that came before it. And so thanks for that. And also for sharing your courageous story

because it's, I think, a noble attempt at trying to fix one's own country, especially in the face of such a challenge, because it is, in this case, I think it was quite a big challenge that you undertook. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. It doesn't end here. There's much more of this conversation, and you can hear it by signing up for Epicenter Premium. As a premium subscriber, you'll get access to a private RSS feed where you can hear the interview debrief. which goes on for an extra 20 minutes. You'll also get exclusive access to roundtable conversations with Epicenter hosts

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