Epicenter - Learn about Crypto, Blockchain, Ethereum, Bitcoin and Distributed Technologies - Mysten Labs: How Sui Leverages Move to Build the Composable Web3nternet - Adeniyi Abiodun

Episode Date: April 29, 2025

Founded by former Meta Diem team members, Sui is a high-performance, layer-1 blockchain designed for horizontal scaling and low-latency transactions. It uses an object-centric data model and the Move programming language to enable transaction parallelization which can handle >200,000 txs/s. Sui’s goal is to combine the benefits of blockchains with Web2’s security & frictionless UX. From account abstraction & ZKLogin, to on-chain storage & data availability solutions like Walrus, Sui rebuilds the Google/AWS stack, fully on-chain and composable.Topics covered in this episode:Adeniyi’s background, from Libra to SuiSui’s long-term visionThe tech stack of Sui & its primitivesZKLogin & account abstractionObject-based approachTransaction processing & parallelizationDevEx on Move vs. EVM vs. SVMConsensus & scalabilityMEVGaming & SuiPlayDeFi on SuiWalrus data storageNautilusFuture roadmapEpisode links:Adeniyi Abiodun on XMysten Labs on XSui on XWalrus on XSponsors:Gnosis: Gnosis builds decentralized infrastructure for the Ethereum ecosystem, since 2015. This year marks the launch of Gnosis Pay— the world's first Decentralized Payment Network. Get started today at - gnosis.ioChorus One: one of the largest node operators worldwide, trusted by 175,000+ accounts across more than 60 networks, Chorus One combines institutional-grade security with the highest yields at - chorus.oneThis episode is hosted by Brian Fabian Crain.

anything built at top of the EVM stack is going to be susceptible. We're going to see a billion dollar hack, and that prediction came true. I think it's only going to get worse with time. The stacks that exist today in Web 3 are inherently unsafe. If you can coordinate what people do online in a very programmatic way and in a composable way, you'll solve the world's problems, whether they're buying or selling assets, whether they want to build rules around their data and decide who can see that data, who can't see that data.

If they want to give you access to a file, revoked access to a file, right now, these systems, on internet, do not talk to each other to make that possible. So our narrative is very, very different. We're really rebuilding the Google stack, right? The AWS stack. We have a decentralized KMS. We have the decentralized stories layer. We have a decentralized coordination layer.

All these things are now available with Sweden. It's now getting adopted. For example, you can have a whole front end of your website. Most from Warras, and you get guarantees that it's not been hacked. You get guarantees around the packages you're engaging with online versus the internet today. That gives you no guarantees that you're engaging with the right program, should I say. Welcome to Epicenter, the show.

which talks about the technologies, projects, and people driving decentralization into blockchain revolution. I'm Brian Crane, and today I'm speaking with Adani, who is the chief product officer and co-founder of Misson Labs, the company that's built a Suey network. Of course, Suey doesn't need much of an introduction. It's been one of the L-1s. So the next generation, L-1s has been getting the most traction and the most activities, so super excited to talk with him. about the history, the technology, and some of the things going on in Sui. So just before we get started with Adani, we want to share a few words for more sponsors this week.

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It's great to have you. It's an honor. Look forward to always talking to you. I thought it would be interesting to start a little bit with the origin story, maybe both in terms of your interest in crypto. And then, I mean, I think my understanding is a lot of this early initial work happened still at Meta at Facebook. Yeah. So by way of background, I've been in crypto since late 2011, actually. So I've been in crypto for a long time going on with Bitcoin space very early.

It was mining Bitcoin, buying Bitcoin at 10 cents. Oh, wow. I wish I didn't sell a majority of my coins, but it is what it is. But I built a number of companies in the space. I got involved in Facebook, actually, on Libra. I was working at VMware, and Facebook had taken one of the top distribution systems researchers that we had. And I got interested in a project as a result of that and realized they're building something

really compelling. That's where I met my co-founders, interestingly, Sam, George, Kostas, Evan. We had a really good time working on a project. I still say today, it's probably the second best job I've ever had working at Meta on Libre. And of course, the best job I have right now is working on Sway. So we had a number of regulatory hurdles in getting Libra to market, which never got to see the lot of day. But still the spirit of the projects lives on through Sway. When we left META, we actually didn't use the, although the code was all open swords,

We didn't use the code that we had a Facebook for SWI. We learned a lot from building LIBOR of what not to do. We're building to a very specific timeline, very specific set of primitives, and it was really going to be a more permission system at the beginning when you're launching LIBRO. It was going to be between 25 to 30 members that started the consortium.

And over time, the plan was to decentralize and build it something more scalable over time. When we left Meta, we had the opportunity. to just start from blank slate. We also knew that the way you succeed here is not trying to build just a layer one. We believe there's a pristine opportunity to build a layer for the internet, a decentralized stack where developers who wanted to build new business models come to drive. And the internet today lacks that. If you want to build anything in the internet today, you're really using existing centralized stacks. We have very difficult primitives that don't really all gel

together really well and there's no programmability or composability across these assets. So we felt that there was a big opportunity to build a multi-trillion dollar of business in trying to basically decentralize the entire stack and compete with likes of Google or Facebook or wherever in terms of providing that level of infrastructure and surfaces for people to engage with. That formed Miston Labs and Labs. And Miston Labs, second product was launching Deepak and third was Sway and now, Waris as well. We have a number of protocols coming out very soon that extend that.

You're going to have general purpose computing. that you can do verifiable off-chain computation that you can do with Nautilus that we'll be launching very soon. You have SEAL-A-Ded entity-based encryption scheme that lets you manage keys using threshold signatures as a way to not have to manage keys yourself to encrypt and decrypt files, which is what you're going to need to the internet.

But all this stuff is very composable. It's all programmable. You can build whatever you want with this new decentralized fact. And we're the only company in the world that's doing this. So when you think of the long-term vision of Sui, so you describe it as kind of this decentralized internet stack, so sounds like quite a divergence from the way people fall of L1s historically. Or like how do you feel like the vision kind of it diverges here?

Yeah, people building L1, they just really think mostly about trading to a large extent. They'll try and tell you to more than that, but realistically, they only care about tokens being launched. Our vision's always been, hey, if you can coordinate what people do online in a very programmatic way and in a composable way, you'll solve the world's problems. And a layer one is what you're meant to use for that, right?

It's meant to, well, SWI does that, right? Most L1 ones don't. The goal of SWI itself, that layer, is to help quarter what people do online, whether they're buying or filling assets, whether they're owning concert tickets or transferring it, whether they want to build rules around their data and decide who can see that data, who can't see that data,

if they want to give you access to a file, revoke access to a file. Right now, these systems on the Internet do not talk to each other to make that possible. You have to build things using duct tape all over to make it work, and you end up realizing it just build a centralized system because it's easy to coordinate when you own everything in-house. This is why we have these mass conglomerates, right?

We just do everything in-house themselves, and you have no real composability across services. That is the opportunity, and it's a deviation from what L1s do because I believe that ambition is not something I've seen voiced by any L1, right? Our ambition is beyond that. We believe that we can coordinate what people do online using SWI,

and you can marry that with the ability to have people own-known data user WORUS. You can coordinate that with allowing people to encrypt and encrypt or give access to file, remove access to file using SEAL. And then you can also verify what they've done. done online, whether you want to verify bank balance in the bank account, you want to verify the weather, you want to verify some computation that happens off-chain, but then attest to that user of the blockchain. We let's you do that as well with Nautilus coming out. So our narrative

is very, very different. We're really rebuilding the Google stack, right? The AWS stack. You imagine AW has as storage, as compute, it has encryption, KMS services. We have a decentralized KMS. We have a decentralized stories layer. We have a decentralized coordination. layer. All these things are now available with Sway and it's now getting adopted as we speaks. So like let's say if you take like Solana, right, they have always had this, you know, this description of the vision as like or decentralized NASDAQ and, you know, like as you pointed out, right, it's very focused on trading and financial use cases. Do you also feel, you know, there's a particular type of application or that, you know, this is most. You know, this is most, you

crucial for, right? Because in the end, a lot of stuff, people just use normal centralized products and, you know, they seem to work fairly well. But what is kind of the key breakthrough here or like, you know, the type of problem where this is really crucial? Yeah, so the three areas of focus we have. It's, we have a focus in commerce, in finance, and then also in gaming. Those are the three areas of focus. But SWI and our platform and family of poets are a very general purpose. You can build anything you want on them. And in fact, I'd argue you can build a lot more verticals

across horizontally using R stack than anywhere else. For example, you can have a whole front end of your website, loans from Warras, and you get guarantees that it's not been hacked. You get guarantees around the packages you're engaging with online versus the internet today that gives you no guarantees that you're engaging with the right institution. You're engaged with the right program, should I say. It's something called binary transparency that matters.

So the plan to start off with this premise of, hey, we are building a decentralized NASDAQ because their mantra is like, hey, if we solve trading, we solve a massive problem. We believe you have to go beyond that, right? Sway already has a decentralized NASDAQ, right, which is called Deepak, and that's growing significantly fast. It operates faster in terms of throughput than any other central limit of orderbook that exists in Web 3. It performs as well as most centralized exchanges to large degree. If you're going to do bulk trade, you can do that on Deepak today. but our remit is larger than that, right?

It's going beyond just trading. It's things that you do on internet. Everyone does commerce, everyone does finance, and everyone does some form of gaming. There are over 3.1 billion gamers last year we spent over $200 million. That's modern movies. That's modern music combined.

We're going after massive areas where users can engage with the chain in very interesting ways that don't have to be front and center. I always say, when you go to a website today, You don't think this website is awesome because it's run on Google. It's just a website, right? And our infrastructure is going to be that well hidden in the back end.

It's going to power the most of the internet. You can start running banking applications on SWI, and you can get guarantees that the banking application you engage you with is absolutely legitimate, and the application is up today. It's not been hijacked. We saw a massive hack that happened over a billion dollars lost, one of recent. If this stack was built using Warras as a front-end store layer,

and then SWE as a back-end coordination, there, that hack would have been absolutely impossible. And we made the point that anything built atop of the EVM stack is going to be susceptible, we're going to see a billion dollar hack, and that prediction came true. I think it's only going to get worse with time. The stacks that exist today in Web 3 are inherently unsafe. They're very, very difficult to build predictable business models because, one, costs are very, very high because your business gets successful, gassy you go through the roof.

They're built on the concept of block space being this finite resource. And where you have a finite resource, supply and demand kicks in. The more block space demand you have, the high the price is to go to deal with the supply and demand. Sway does not work under that premise. In fact, the more resources you need, the more block space you need for Sway, the more hardware you throw, therefore you scale it horizontally. So Sway is the only chain that's been demonstrated that you add seven times a hardware, you get seven times a throughput, zero increased latency. So in Mainnet right now, our configuration would run at 297,000 transactions per second. you add seven times the hardware, you get seven times of throughput with no increase in latency.

This is how the internet should work, right? Like it's horizontally scalable. This is how we build infrastructure for search at Google. It's how we're building the structure for Facebook in terms of anything we did. Everything needs to have an element of provide more resources and then you scale horizontally. That level of expertise has not existed in Web 3. It's a first time it's impossible. I think we're bringing that level of expertise of research and development to Web 3.

going to be what's needed to build next generation infrastructure that everyone is to be powering their businesses off. Let's let's dive a bit into the technical architecture. Like, how would you describe the technical architecture of Suey? So it's exactly what I was saying, right? Like the first thing is what makes Suey amazing is not the fact that there's one thing we do well. The optimizations required, which is why I'm against this like modular approach.

It doesn't make much sense, right? You need to, the monolith works because you understand every. intrinsic layer of the infrastructure, and you can take the max opportunity to optimize a heck out of it, right? We have a storage model that is object-based. Intrinsically, we're using an object-based system.

We know whether one transaction and another transaction have contention. And this is done statically. There's no need to programmatically figure that out, which means you can, the more CPUs you have, the more things you can do concurrently in parallel. No blockchain does that. Everything is assumed it's a single large database

and then you lock in tie anyways every time you want to make updates. So dealing with contention is inherently difficult on other chains, where SWE, the data model is baked in. So we've got a data model that is object-based. We have a program paradigm with SWE move that takes advantage of that object-based system and allows you to build and craft real-world assets, real-world systems using an object paradigm. Most proper languages are object-oriented.

Most developers understand object-oriented concepts. So building on SWE, they're learning it in less than, four days. People are getting very competent building in Sway Move in four days because the paradons they used to in traditional program languages are forwarded to them in Sui. Separately, we have a very low latency consent to scheme that scales horizontally. So, Mississetti, which we launched in Basecamp last year, took latency into end-to-end latency down to 400 milliseconds. Actual finality. From when I submit a trade to when it's final, we drop the latency down to 400 milliseconds. This is insane. So you really have, our block times are less than 100 milliseconds, something like 70 to 18 milliseconds.

Those numbers are interesting, but what really matters is what's the user experience. So when people use a defypile protocol on Tweed, they realize all transactions are instant, whether you do a trade, when you do a swap, when you want to make a payment for something, everything happens lightning fast. It feels just like Web 2. To the point where you think it's some centralized server running, that is the experience people want. The idea of waiting and having this optimistic finality is not how you build real compelling applications. So that stack allows developers to really build applications that are akin to the experience of the web too.

And then you add on to the fact that we have something called ZK login, which is this cryptographic primitives in SQE that lets you use your existing Facebook, Google, WhatsApp, whatever account you have as an identifier to create an account on chain and do that for your permissionlessly. So if you're logging with a Google account, you have a wallet in SWI, Google have no idea what transactions you're doing. They have no idea between your Google account and long-chain address. Nobody can tell the difference. That is a superpower, which means you can onboard users into SWI using normal Web 2 permiters

and then need to be non-the-wiser whether they're engaging with the chain or not. What makes this super important, though, is it's the chain itself that verifies your session. It's not some third-party middleware that takes all your data. listen to all your transactions that you do and try to itself adds to you. The chain itself verifies that session, which is super critical. That is a game changer in terms of the primitives that we've launched. Yeah, a bunch of stuff we want to dive in here.

Maybe we start with the last one. So this login, so it's kind of like a sign-in with Google, and how does that work under the hood? So it's called ZK Logger. It's something that we built in House of Miston. It's actually something we're trying to solve as a problem at Facebook. but we never had the time, nor the resources of time to figure it out.

It still was cumbersome. We still needed to hold cryptographic signatures. What we have with Zika Login, what happens is we will generate a zero-lawless proof using your cookie that you get from when you sign it with Google. And that generation of a mathematical proof is what we use to authenticate. It creates what we'll call, you know, it's basically a temporary key that you use to sign transactions. So these things expire

have some number of days. He's not to sign in again, right? Which is what you expect, right, with any account. But once you sign in with Zika login, you can use that same. Once you've signed in with your Google account face with, it supports cacao and a number of other providers,

and it keeps increasing on a regular basis. You then have that deterministic way to sign transactions in the ecosystem. That means, from a user perspective, private keys are no longer a thing. If you lose access, if you forget your password, you just reset your Google account password, and you still have access to your assets as well.

So it's done entirely in a fully transparent way from a user perspective. It's a way you're on board users, asking people to go download a wallet and then go and remember some paraphrase or some pin, it's just not going to work, right? I mean, if you're paranoid about a billion dollars, yes, maybe you're going to do something elaborate

with a ledger device or whatever. But for a couple of hundred bucks, maybe $20, $5, even like $15,000, right? Most people are using Zika Logging. It's actually, I feel safer with Zika Logging using some key management system because I've inherently have lost money using key management systems before. My Google account is defended like Fort Knox, right?

Or my Facebook account is a secure that I want it to be, right? So I'll use those schemes because I'm comfortable with them. I sign in to a number of services online today, use those schemes. I feel more comfortable accessing assets that way. So that's really what we've built here. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's a tremendous U.X breakthrough for sure. I do agree. I think having that on the base layer is very powerful.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, something called crypto agility, right? We support keys with Solana, key with Eve. You can use whatever key you want to sign transaction with SWI, right? But the fact that you can now use your Web2 keys to sign transactions with SWE, that's another element of that. That's very important. Do you see that also as a sort of account abstraction thing where then you could potentially use that to, you know, execute actions on other chains?

Yeah, we actually have a project on SWI called ICA. And ICA fundamentally does that, right? It effectively lets you sign transactions on any chain you want. It supports Solana, SWI, ETH, you name it, right? You can effectively use SWI as a layer for coordination. It does that all transparently for you. But the transaction, you have the signature scheme that was signed transactions for you on any chain you want. So if you want to get the security of SWE, where all your assets are governed by SWE,

you get that. If you want to still maintain your assets and other chain, you get that as well. So that's the element of how you can take the power that we offers you to other chains and use that as a way to control assets wherever you want. So I also want to talk a bit more about this object-based approach. So the object here, is it, it can be a smart contract

or it can be an account, or like what are the types of things that are objects? So the smallest unit of computation, in SWI is strongly typed objects in SWE. It's not bits or bytes. They're strongly type objects. That's the smallest unit of computation, which means everything, to a large extent,

is an object in SWEEE. Your NFTs are objects. Your account is an object. Everything is an object. In fact, we don't really have an account model in SWE. Everything is an object model in SWE. So that paradigm, the world doesn't think, from an account perspective, it thinks around objects.

This is an object. I own it in my hand. I hold it. I transfer it to people, that element of transferring an object from one press or to another, it's inherently baked into the underlying design for SWI. That lets you do really powerful things. Because it's from the type objects now, right, I can take an object as an argument into a function. And it's a virtual machine to ensure the integrity of that object is maintained.

So it means I can build a decks, right? And the assets of support can be dynamic. or I can build an NFT that would take two objects and it would merge them and spit out something else in the end. But ultimately it means now people can build on the work that I have. Interfaces are not the way to do that. Interfaces in a world where a conflict is though we always say it's a sin, like interfaces are a sin, right?

Objects is really what you want, right? You have an object that strongly type, we're very well defined. You have, you know, a function that really would take that object as a set of inputs from a programmability point of view, makes a lot of sense because that's how you build in any programming language today. You take it an object as a bit of a function, you execute computation over it, and you spit something else out. That is what Sway offers you.

This is why most developers get Swee very easily. You're not trying to think of, hey, I need to proto-buff some bitstream and reconstruct something off the end of it, you know, make sure that the integrity is maintained, have some kind of hash table to manage everything. and, you know, it's all a mess, right? This is why you have all these hacks, right?

And, you know, really bad systems design, there's no real composability with majority of other systems. Whereas with an object-based system, what you do get is a fully permissionless composability, which matters, right? I don't need to give you permission to use some kind of interface to engage with me.

There's no kind of standing you need to formally adapt. You simply just use a non-object, which is what you're used to in traditional programming languages, which is way, way better. And everything is a single, address space. None of the sharding nonsense that people talk about where, hey, where's my shard, where's my data? Is in shard one, shard two? It's a single space that you worry about from a developer point of view, which means everything is accessible from a single address space,

which is where you get a compulsibility and everything's atomic and that sense. So I'm curious how that connects with, you know, how you guys process transactions. So you have all of these different transactions coming in and, you know, some of them kind of touch different objects. And because, right, Sue, one of the ways you guys achieve

this kind of scalability is through being able to process transactions in parallel. So, do you guys then try to

upfront see, okay, which, you know, where do you have? Because obviously one of the challenges,

let's say now you have one transaction that touches a bunch of others. And then, so I think in Solana,

right, you have to say upfront, what accounts or contracts you touch, and then they kind of parallelize it. So is it a little bit similar to that? There's no need to do that kind of nonsense and sweet, right? Because everything is an object in a space,

you're defining the object you're using at any given time. For example, I'm submitting my object X into the function of object Y, right? And that's very well defined a normal programming paradigm. It's very easy to think about that from a normal proven perspective. You're not thinking of addresses, you're not thinking of ideal contention from that point of view. You're simply just writing applications. But the key thing is you almost incentivize to write code that takes advantage of sui's paralyization.

In a scenario, let's say, for example, right, like because there are two objects and they're touching different bits of state, they are processed automatically in parallel in suite. No questions asked. You don't have to worry about that. But what about if you have something that's a hot object where it's real contention? Because when some of this contention is there's no magic art, right? There's nothing you can do around contention. You've got to be able to still process things in a sequence, but deal with that contention.

So Sway does have localized fee markets that will increase price on hot objects only, but affects nothing else with other transactions. So if you have an object that's hot, there's high contention, no other transactions in the Sway ecosystem is affected. You won't even notice because it's nothing to do with you, right? But what you notice is the gas seeds for that particular content. and anxious objects starts to increase. So what you as a developer can do,

let's say, for example, I have a pool that's JPIUSD, and I'm finally as contentional JPIUSD, but what I can do is I can create multitude of pools for different price points, right, to start to spread that contention a bit more broadly across the number of objects. So what you can start to do is break down objects into smaller components to spread that contention

over a number of objects and get that paralyzation as a result of that. So that's more of a natural way to solve the problem than there's brute force. So tell me what you're going to touch and I'm going to decide whether I'm going to, if I'm going to be able to parallelize it or not. You know, that is way more natural for a program design paradigm than what is afforded to people using other schemes today.

So that basically means, let's say now there's a Dex and a lot of people trying to trade with this Dex. So the fees stand for interacting with the decks, they're going to go up, whereas normal transactions. For that particular pair, not the entire debt. Yeah. If that particular pair is hot and the other pair is on hot, you'll not see any increase for anyone else, right? It would just be that particular pair.

And then the order, and then you basically say, okay, now we have a particular block and there's like 10 transactions that all interact with this particular pair. Then they would get executed in order of, you know, basically highest fee to lowest fee. Correct. Yeah, okay. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I think kind of touches on something I want to come back to later,

which is just the MEP topic. But let's talk a bit more about the developer experience. So I know move is obviously, you know, you guys are the leading move chain. And move is, you know, today I guess we have the three leading ways, right? You have to have a smart contracts. Solidity, EVM, right? So number one. And then SVM, Solana.

So if you think of those three, what are the main differences from a developer perspective building on Sui and on move? So Sui is not account base, where Solana and EVM is. Sway is strongly typed in terms of dealing with strongly type objects where everything else doesn't really solve that problem for you. The programming paradigm allows you for power of execution natively, which it doesn't give you for Juana, nor does it give you for EVM. Well, Solana is actually better than EVM from program perspective, right? But still it doesn't give you the same kind of safety that move

that's fundamentally built, purpose built for assets gives you. The developer journey is a lot easier. I mean, people make a lot of noise by chewing glass, as though that's a good thing, right? It's actually a bad thing. people are learning move very, very quickly. We're saying up to four days, people are picking that up and become quite adept

to writing actually interesting applications very, very quickly. From a DevX perspective, the fact that you've got primitives baked into the layer one, for example, randomness is baked into the layer one. You don't need an Oracle for it. Zero knowledge proofs are baked into the layer one, so you don't need any of chemicelism for that. the ability to verify people's identity directly is on-chain with Zika Logger

and done in a very private way can be done directly on-chain, no need for off-chain or off-chain third-party middleware. So we come from a perspective of you provide as much functionality in the base layer, so developers can compose and build things that are interesting, rather than counting on third-party integrations to make that work. So I think from that perspective, you can build more interesting, more engaging businesses on Sweden, you can count on Solana or East. Now, Sway, of course, is the youngest of all these chains.

It's only been around for two years. So there's some catching up to do. But I think Sway is doing relatively well. If you had to benchmark where Solana started this journey and where it was in two years, where Sway is, and in two years, there's an ocean device for how we've performed versus of the chains in our time frame. Let's talk about the consensus. So how does that work and how are you guys able to achieve such low latency and such high throughput?

Well, I'm not a world expert in consensus myself, but my co-founders are and so is the engineering team. But I can talk about it from a high-level perspective. So we've been able to build what is called a DAG-based consensus scheme. In fact, it's probably the first DAG-based consensus scheme that people fully understand and can teach us at college. So some colleges, some Ivy League college is actually teaching it as part of their distributed systems courses now, because you can actually make sense of it. It's fully understandable. So this DAG-based consent to scheme reduces the amount of verification.

It's a verifier is a non-verified DAG, which means you do not need to verify the steps in each transitioning of a DAG. Over time, you get that verification by proxy of getting enough signatures, rather than having to do the verification up front. What that means as well is it reduces the amount of round trips you need to do before you get certainty on the transaction. So that reduction in the amount of round trips you need to do to get, certainty of the transaction reduces latency.

So Suisse by far the lowest latency chain when it comes to actual finality. I'm not talking about block times, because block times and numbers people like to make up all the time. There's no resemblance to what finality really is. And I'm not talking about optimistic transact finality, because if we want to go there, squeeze like 20 seconds optimistic finality, 20 milliseconds optimistic finality, but who cares? That doesn't matter. What you care about is from when I click a button, when is it final, when is it irreversible

from a finality standpoint? And from that perspective, Sway, again, is the lowest latency chain from that perspective as well. So that gives us a big advantage of other chains. Separately, the DAG-based consensus, we take advantage of it for ensuring transactions are done as quickly as possible. It gives us the robustness that we have, the 12 plus 1 number of values before you have any kind of faults. So it gives us a kind of speed that has never been seen before. I mean, we already had a Barrettas consensus scheme with Narwha and Bullshark when we went to main net. And the goal was always to get faster and faster.

We'd see what the team comes up with next time. It's hard to imagine something faster. But it's actually a Mississippi version 2 coming out soon that would reduce latency even lower to what we have today. Do you feel, I mean, so you mentioned 297K transactions a second. That's kind of like token sense or does it include like smart contract transactions? So those are just peer-to-peer transactions. So if you want to do what pay, those are like payments, if you're doing payments. So if you want to do small contract, transaction, it depends on what small contracts you're executing.

But again, Sui is parallelizable. So you can do many things in parallel. Another thing to bring up is Sui has this unique feature called PTBs, which is programmable transaction blocks. So I can atomically conjure up 1,024 transactions together. And what I mean by that is individual transactions. Let's say, for example, I want to do a trading strategy where I take a flash loan, take that proceed, put it into a lending pool, take instantly a borrow out of a lending pull, put it into a defy trade, take advantage of an ARB, settle that back with my lending pull and back again,

in the normal chain, either independent terms like it has to do one by one, or you need to craft a smart contract, that specific path. As we know, everything is dynamic, the path's not always fixed, and you want to be able to make decisions with off-chain data at times as well. With SWI, you can craft up to 1,024 heterogeneous transactions together and execute them atomically instantly within 300 milliseconds. So that's another game changer. So if you are a market maker, you're trading on D-Book, which is a central limit order book, you're holding 500 positions across D-Book and you need to rebalance those positions or move them to a different pricing point. You can execute that movement of removing the positions

and then we quoting them in a different price point with a single transaction. You cannot do that anywhere else in a world, right? You can't even do that on centralized stacks in an atomic way, whereas Sway, you've given that atomic, etymicity where you can submit all your cancels and all your new bids instantly with a single transaction batch.

And that's something you can't do on Seoul, ETH, or any other change. You can't even do that on a NASDAQ, quite frankly. So that's a superpower that Sway has that I think starts to bear the question as to, you know, we believe that majority, of trades in the future will happen on chain, as long as the stacks can take care of the bandwidth.

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like from the kind of scalability you guys already have, do you think is, is that mostly soft, or do you expect that, I mean, I guess it depends a lot, right, how things play out, but do you expect that has the scale still a lot more for, you sort of eventually? The next step for us will be launching what we're calling Romero, which is our skill infrastructure.

Again, that lets you go horizontal. You add more hardware, you scale horizontally. We're not a capacity yet. So there's no real need to release that right away. But Sway has a solution for horizontal scalability. The only thing we're going to keep doing is just optimizing the single compute unit for the computer, right? You make that more and more optimise over time. We already got the scalability from a horizontal perspective.

Other chains do not have that. Other chains will talk about sharding. Then you lose out thermicity. There's no compulsibility across shards. and people have a tough time around two-face commit algorithms, right? How they're going to solve that atomicity issue when it comes to Shards?

I think they're really, they're promising something that they can't deliver on. So from our perspective, we already have the scalability solution. What we want to keep doing is working on how do we get the most performance out of that VOTAM as possible. There are lots of things we can do

around the MOVM to make it even more efficient than it is today, but that's not the bottleneck at this point in time. So right now, it's really just keep on shipping more functionality to make it the best place for deaths to build. Let's talk a little bit by MIV. I think there's very different opinions on, you know,

what is MEP? You know, is it something change should try to prevent or, and, you know, we've also had different architectures, right? There are many chains. The validators spill the blocks. Ethereum, of course, most importantly, has separated that out, right, with having proposers and builders.

and having those roles separated. Like, how do you think about MEV and, like, how does MEV work today in SUI? Yeah, I mean, the idea that somebody can put a transaction ahead of me, knowing for what I'm giving them information to train on my behalf, and they're using that information to rob me blind. I don't know how people justify that as a good thing. I'm sorry, I don't care what chain you are or what kind of school of economy come from. That's his wrong, right?

can always say that's somewhat illegal for large extent, right? Using some information I'm giving you the front run me and it's screw me on price and say, okay, well, it's MED, so it must be okay. Sorry, that doesn't make sense. Sway, now, Mavie is not impossible in any infrastructure, but with Sui, it's very, it's almost impossible to make money doing MED on Sway, especially in a deterministic way, right? We do have some schemes on Sway and projects on Sway that are making MED more client friendly, namely, if there's an opportunity, you to do any term of MEV, the rewards go directly to those who are participating in ecosystem, namely token holders, the trader directly. These are happening. So they're like fast

paths to execute trades really quickly that are happening right now on SWI. But MEV is an area that we're very passionate about, but to the point where we would rather shift the direction in the hands of those do or doing the trades themselves, not in some kind of minor that's going to extract value from consumer experience. I think about it, right? I put in $50 and I expect it. I expect you to get $50 in Bitcoin, but I get $48. That's not right. I don't know how you could ever argue that's a right thing to do in any world, right? In a world where I put in $50 and I get $50 back, that's what we want to be in.

But also, maybe if I get 51 because I'm able to take advantage of some other opportunity elsewhere in some pool due to some arbitrage, that's actually a positive from a consumer perspective. And I'd always be in the side of a consumer rather than minors. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it is interesting how, you know, in the beginning, right when the whole MEP concept came up, you know, people were like, oh, this is really bad. And then I think in Ethereum, right, it switched so quickly to like, okay, that's just the norm.

And, you know, everyone gets extracted to the maximum possible. The problem is sweet so fast that it's very hard to do, right? So when you have a chain is very slow like ETH or even Seoul where, you know, there's There's a lot of opportunity for MED on Seoul, right, because of the architecture. You don't have the opportunities on suite. So it's very hard problem to solve for suite. Namely, if you do make it possible, you want to make sure it's a tip to the favor and balance of those who are actually doing the trades, not some arbitrary member.

So we actually think it's a problem that you want to index on solving in some way. At least if you're going to solve it, you solve it in the direction of consumers rather than, you know, fee hundreds of order to operate. But the way today this might work is that, you know, a validator, they get their transactions, and then they still maybe plug into some sort of API with some kind of, you know, MED company builder, and then they do some sort of transaction insertion or reorganization, which obviously would be much harder if you have less time, for sure. But is that kind of the main way something like this gets prevented? So the number of ways, I'm not a MVE expert, so it was probably worthwhile getting Sam

or the call to talk more about the intrinsic way that we've built these protections. There are two different providers that are buying to solve this problem. One with a validator integration. One is simply just a on-chain integration that doesn't require the validator upgrades. So the two directions that people are taken towards this. But both are taking the approach of value must be given to token holders or those who are trading rather than those who are on extra value. But intricacies of how it really works is beyond my mind.

I limit the expertise of the rainer expertise. Yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about some of the areas that you guys are focusing on. So, I mean, one is gaming, right? Gaming has been, let's say, kind of a topic, like crypto gaming, right, has been something that's been for many years. There's something people felt like, oh, that's a lot of potential there. I think the main reason for it, I always,

often heard was like, well, maybe games have assets and then people don't really own those assets in the games and maybe it would be nice if people actually own them and maybe they could like, you know, use them somewhere else. So like, what do you feel like is the case for having gaming on chain? Yeah. So I'm not a believer that says games have to be on chain. I think I'm a believer that games just need to be more fun. And the games that always historically do well are the ones that can keep the user base engaged for as long as possible. I can keep increasing the user base for a franchise. So three or technology is that getting involved in gaming needs to solve that problem. So the partners we're working with are massive, are large in scale. And we've been able to

convince them that their business model is way more sustainable using SWE as a chain. Some of these games don't have to be on chain. Maybe Suiz used for the App Store concept of selling in-game assets, or it's used for registering entitlements or rewards, or it's used for token-gating access to specific content, or use as a mechanism to build an incentive scheme that lasts the test of time. So our work with Game Studios are along those lines. We actually launched a games console called Two Players Erics One, which we announced last year, and it's actually going to be shipping this summer, it sold out as a result of the work that team's done, really good work by the team. But beyond that, there's a game that's a game that's going to power the future of games.

So this operating system, you can do boot with your Windows machine. It runs on a Steam deck or runs on Sweet Playze X1. Anyway, you want to play Steam, Epic or Web3 games. You don't have to make a decision between platforms anymore. It'll run all those games for you. And then with that comes with deep integration with Sweet with Zika login. So just by logging into your normal account, you now have a wallet in the back. we don't even call it a wallet,

and you start to earn rewards for playing any Web 2 or Web 3 games. In addition to be able to be given rewards for, or at least discounts to be able to buy games because they find, there's a correlation between people who play War of Warcraft versus some other game. If we give them a discount, maybe they're more likely to play our game, right? So the ability to engage and acquire users much more frictionlessly

is going to be what Web 3 powers. And these are the kind of investments we make. We're more betting on big items, long-term, things that can make impact, from a business perspective, not the hype stuff, right? I think mass majority of games that have been around in crypto, I always say are spreadsheets or things that are built by accountants that pretend to be games rather than hardcore games that people find fun.

And a part of we work where they have built games that have gross billions of dollars a year in revenue, and they know how to build fun and engaging games. The Web3 element is an aid to make the game experience way more compelling than a way to extract value by overcharging on NFTs or putting some element of token gated in there, doesn't make any sense. So yeah, that's our thesis of them. And what was the, I'm curious about the SuiPlay,

so the console you guys are coming out with. What was, like, what's the thing behind it and how does it work? So the Free Play X-1 is a highly powered hand-held gaming device that's got great battery life, great screen, great graphics card, and let you play your PC games wherever you are. portable. It will play your games in your Steam deck. It will play your epic games. It would also play Web 3 games because it has its own app store. Typically, you have to choose between one device or another. Now with a sweepplay device, one device does all that for you in a single unit. Chief of that is the fact that there's a Web 3 integration, right? So whether you're playing

a Web 2 game or Web 3 game, it doesn't matter. We don't even call it out. Where's a Web 2 or Web 2 or 3 game? They use games. And now you have a single device from a utility perspective that will reward you based on whatever games you play, doesn't really throw Web 3 in your face. You get to own your asset by your account that you create on the system, and you don't need to worry about wallets. The payments will be by stable coins, and you don't have to be overcharged the credit card fees

that people bill you on. The thought process is, in fact, if you launch your game on a sweeper X-1 from an app store perspective, you won't have to pay those fees, those high fees that app stores charge you. And that means that money you save as a game studio can go back into building a better game, or rewarding the users with better incentives to keep playing.

Right. Okay. So basically, from a user perspective, I can kind of buy this thing, and it's a good gaming console anyway, and I can play my existing games. But then they can also be more like blockchain games that have maybe their own tokenomics and incentives and stuff.

And then from a developer perspective, it just makes it easy to develop those games and then get distribution through everyone who has the concept. Correct. I remember this operating system will get installed on PCs, set-up boxes, you name it. So everywhere they go, they're accountless with them. So it's a distribution play. We want to be everywhere. And we think by 2030, most gamers will have a wallet in some form. We think that wallet will be a ZK Loggin wallet with SWEE. Cool. How many of the devices have been ordered? We only made 10,000 to get it started, and that's already sold out. We have other manufacturers

that want to build a Sweet Play device for their own user base and things like that, which is I think. Cool. Cool. Very cool. So you mentioned the other two big categories is like finance and commerce. I mean, defy, of course, is the thing that, you know, I would say the thing that crypto has actually nailed the best so far. How does the Sui DeFi ecosystem, how does it compare with others?

Yeah. I mean, Sui is the sixth largest chain, probably top five chain when it comes to DeFi volumes. and in the top 10 firmly in terms of TBL. So Sween is already showing Proto Market in areas of DFI. In fact, one of the top four dexes in all of Web 3 is a Sweed decks already. So that's already exciting from a gross perspective. One of the areas of focus for us right now is actually BTC5. We want to be the chain that brings utility for a ton of Bitcoiners.

That's exemplified by a partnership with Eicher, who's going to be launching this scheme that lets you control Bitcoin assets on Sway without ever having to use bridges. And more than 10% of the TDL on Sui is growing very quickly to Bitcoin. That's only going to grow over time as well. So our focus is really to grow the financial ecosystem. We have stable coins. We have SETOX.

We have SETOXs. We're going to be adding another that will be announcing at Basecamp. Separately from that as well, there is more opportunities to onboard other currencies into Sway that we're looking at. We think FX trades will be a massive volume. driver for Defi and Sui, especially if you're thinking about, you know, JPI, you're thinking about, you know, Eurodollar baskets as well. There's an opportunity for us there. And I think Swede's going to do really, really well when it comes to FX traits. The carry trade is going to be real.

And then when you think of commerce, do you think, I guess payments is one aspect, right? So maybe stable coin payments. Are there other things that you see there? It's the whole thing. It's like the ability to pay, send or receive payments, the ability to make bulk transactions on behalf of your user base, the ability to reward your user base and keep them engaged with reward systems, incentive systems, the ability to acquire users, target users, reward users,

all those things are an element of commerce, I think. Blockchains, well, fortunately, we'll do way better than traditional ads. I think the ad business of just like pain and spraying, especially with a session cookie being gone, is going to falter. I think blockchains and wallets and the idea of entitlement systems are going to be what you build ad businesses

or ad networks off the back of moving forward. It's the element of shifting the balance into the favor of the consumer and taking away from centralized systems. Actually, it's better from a business perspective. The ad spend you'd make might be higher, but the cumulative rewards you get out of that ad spend would be better because

it's a better targeted audience than this prayer approach that you do today. And recently you guys, launched Walros, which has gotten also, like, lots of attention and, you know, is a very interesting, like, what's the vision for Walrus? Yeah. I made the point yesterday that in three, in two years, Mr. Labs has launched three unicorns. Warras being one of them, Deepa being one of them, and of course, Sui. Waris is a global stories layer. I mean, one of the feedback we heard from a lot of developers is, by the way, Sui is about 100 times cheaper to store data than Seoul, and about

2,000 times cheaper to store data than the Eath, but still is too expensive, right? Because you've got this replication factor, you're storing data on each validator, and then you're multiplying that. So if you store on Amazon, maybe you're paying three to four X replication. If you're someone else, where you're paying 100x replication, which makes no sense, right? So you might be able to store a megabyte, two megabytes, fine. You have it there forever, no problem. But if you want to start storing gigabytes to store pedabytes of data, you only really have R-Weave that makes you pay 100 years in advance of data, which makes them sense. Or you have file coin that doesn't really give you the guarantees you want. That's very, very slow in terms of downloads.

there's no real solution for fully decentralizing your front end and back end. So we built Waris specifically to solve that problem that we're hearing from developers. Now you have a fully programmable storage layer that let you store pedabytes and gigabytes of data for dirt cheap. It's comparable to Amazon in terms of pricing, way more distributed, way more decentralized, we're more resilient to faults. And, you know, your files are broken up using a redshift algorithm that effectively split some into billions of fragments across hundreds and of thousands of services.

You only need to contact, you know, a third to two-third of those machines to get your data at any given time. So it's actually a third of those machines to get your data. So even if two-thirds of a network is down, you can still access your files. You don't get that kind of resilient with any service provider that exists today. So this is us taking what people expect from centralized services and making it possible on decentralized services. On Morris by far is the most scalable, fastest, and the most programmable way of storing data. And what's coming for Worris Next is SEAL, which is a scheme that lets you encrypt and decryt files fully decentralized.

So I can use my Google account to encrypt my files, and it's all done fully in a decentralized way. I can give you access to the file to MC it. I can get access to content by saying, if you pay me $5.30 or one Bitcoin, you can gain access to data. Now you can, that programmability aspect becomes very, very critical. could do all that programmability and gate content for the first time using fully decentralized

schemes. Yeah, that's super cool. So basically, I mean, one thing is, okay, it competes or it can be a better alternative to things like Falkoing, things like R-WRIVE, right, that, you know, have gotten some traction, but pretty limited, right? Because I think they're also still pretty limited in terms of, yeah, like cost is still high, right and performance. So there's that.

And then the thing of like having your entire application on chain, right? So I mean, you mentioned the example of the Gnosis safe in the Bible attack, right? Where basically the issue, one of the huge issue, I mean, there was a famous article know by Moxie Mullen Spike,

the signal creator, right? Where he was like, hey, this blockchain thing is kind of bullshit because you have the smart contract things that's like on-chain and verifiable and then people interact with it through these web applications where they have no control over. He is spot on. He was spot on. That's exactly it, right?

You build this amazing, you know, you're waving the arms. Oh, it's all small contracts and whatever. And how do you access it? Some third-party website API that has been hacked. That was hacked. And people knew it was hacked for quite a while, actually. And, you know, this has happened all over in Web 3. Whereas now with Warus, you can get a guarantee that the package of the website.

website you're engaging with is what the development intended for it to be. And you cannot have this subversion of someone injecting something where it's not possible anymore. So I think that element of security that Walrus brings is going to take wars beyond Web 3. Think about cybersecurity, think about government, right? Think about banking. Think about all the use cases where knowing what you're dealing with, knowing what you're engaging with, it's very, very critical. And you want to protect the user funds or user data, use information. Ross is the only thing that lets you do that in a fully permissionless way and fully programmatic way. So that's a scheme that I think is going to be critical for the future.

This is why I'm very bullish for the future of Waris, because it solves the boundary transparency issue. At the same time, it's a programmable storage layer where you can build arbitrary rules as to what accesses content or what can update content. And that rule can be fully transparent to the world. That's a level of security that you do not get when you try to build something. on AWS or GCP. It's just not possible. And then you also mentioned that Nautilus. Can you walk through that as well?

Yeah, so one of the next things we heard as developer feedback was, hey, we've got storage, we've got compute, I mean, we've got compute by smart contracts, right? We've got the ability to run a whole front end. But there are things that we want to do off-chain that we can't get certain guarantees on chain about. For example, if I want to do oracles, right,

for data that don't exist today. For example, I want to know what burgers cost in Missouri, right? Like, maybe, who knows, what use case it is, right? I have no way to verify that Steam, will verify that data. Well, with probably the worst example, burgers in Missouri, they're mostly... But if you want to verify some computation that's happened on chain, and happened off-chain, but users' small contact to verify that that computation

happened correctly, you're very stuck with options that exist today, You don't need to pay a lot of money to an Oracle service to provide that data at great costs. There's no way for you to do something yourself to make that verification possible. So what Northlis gives you is the ability to use trusted execution environments or TEEs to do that computation. Right now, Amazon Nitro, there'll be other enclaves over time. It could do that computation and you can submit that attestation that the enclave will give you directly to the smart contract on sui, and it can verify that that computation happen correctly and proceed and install the data directly. on sweet. So if I want to get a pricing feed for, you know, beef in some country in the world

and do that in real time. I don't know what the weather is in some part of the world and saw that on date, on chain. I want to prove that I've done some kind of move in the game and then verify that on chain. I want to, you know, ensure that, you know, the horse race that happened at the top derby in the world had a right winner and I want to reward the right person that submits the right set of bets, I matter. I can do that directly off chain and verify that with sweet. What it really does, it expand the surface area of what you can do with off-chain data. And you can bring veracity to off-chain data and do that in a fully process where we're sweet. That's what's key.

It's the ability to compute things off-chain, bring the attestation that was computed off-chain, and get that verified by a small contract in order to do amazing programmatic use cases. Right. So you could, like as an example, right, so let's say if I'm a lending protocol and I wanted to use some data, right, some kind of credit scoring thing, right? And I could be like, oh, I'm going to have this program and it's on chain, right? So you can see what the program is. But then it's executed in Nautilus, maybe locks into my bank, checks some things.

And then basically can report some score back on chain. And it also maintains the privacy in this case, right? Correct. You have a better analogy or a better example than you. You should take my job. My burgers and beef. Maybe I'm hungry or so about more. So I'm curious.

Because your title is like chief product officer. So you work kind of, because this is like, you work on those particular products as well as kind of the overall chain. Or do you focus on it kind of also from a suey as a product for the end user, Suey as a product for developers? It seems like a vast scope. All the above, right? Everything from what we. do on the consumer front to what we do on the developer front to the platforms we're launching. Fortunately, we have a great team, right? We have a great team that leaves all these efforts,

and I'm here as a help and an aid to ensure that we unlock decision-making as quickly as possible. So we've been very blessed with to build what I believe is one of the strongest team in the space. That's how we keep executing and always delivering all the time. It's its front of a team. I can't do it all myself. The team is really over-delivered in the last two years. Right. And then, so do you guys spin out some of these things? So Walrass and they kind of then pursued independently or like you kind of incubate them and spin them out? Yeah, so Sway Foundation is an independent entity from Miston. So is the Warris Foundation. As we know, Warris Foundation recently raised about $140 million. That's independent of Sway. So it operates itself, has its own mandate, has its own agenda. We are here as a technology partner to help to help support and provide updates and our business. grades to the network. And over time, the goal is that other contributors, which is already happening with SWI, are participating in the improvement of the protocol over time as well.

So it's not, Warris is not run by MISD, neither is Sui run by Miston. We're the original creators of it, but we're also core contributors to it. And the plan always is like you expand the contributor base to SWE and Warris and everything else that was launch. So when you think of the roadmap for Suey, what are the, I mean, we mentioned, you know, we talked about some of the things that you guys are working on, but what do you see as the most important, you know, like milestones and things that have to be done in the next like two years? Developer growth. An unhealthy infatuation with grown developer base. That's what we're doing now. We've got the platform now. We've got the dev tools. We have the, we have the, the, we have the, the, the storage, we have the coordination, we have the encryption, we have the option verification, we have the trading, we have that all. Now it's adoption. And you're going to see us

in an unhealthy wave overly indexing on aggressively growing the developer base as fast as possible. That's going to be what our passion is going to be for the next few years. So that's going to be the passion. I think we're building what we believe is the new stack for the internet. Now it's time to go out to sell it to the world. Cool. Well, thanks so much for coming on. And it, Anita was super great. And yeah, I'm really excited to see how this plays out. I'm curious for people who want to, you know, they, I think there's probably a lot of our listeners, you know, they know about Suey. They've heard of Suey, but maybe they haven't played around with you yet. They haven't experienced some of the things yet. What do you think are some of the best things that people can, you know, do to get started and to try it out as a user. Yeah.

If you're a phantom wallet user, the phantom's coming out soon. So you can even use in beta mode now, download the phantom wallet and get SWE on, buy some SWE and start playing around with lending protocols. Or go to SWE.O and look at the lists of wallets. We have the SWEWLet. We have the SURF wallet, the number of wallet you can download today. There's always a best onboarding to start with the wallets. Even better still, if you don't want to download wallets, go to get stashed, g-et-s-a-s-a-S-H-E-D dot com,

and then you can effectively sign in with a Google account, and you instantly have a wallet on Sway, you create a username, and you can start engaging with a chain instantly. So we have it all for people to start playing with, whether your interest is defy, your interest is casinos, you're interested in NFTs, SWE has all that and above for you, and there's a lot more coming to the ecosystem.

We announce our partnership with Movie Pass, the ability to soon be able to buy constant tickets with stable coins and start engaging with the movie industry in a lot more interesting ways. We partner with Eli Gold, who is one of the most prominent guys when it comes to the horror movie industry. That whole space of the movie industry is very interesting. We think that's going to be greatly changed with crypto. Gaming, of course. The horror movie industry. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Why is that? Because now, if you imagine the problem with movie industry is like nobody owns a whole stack from the time when you wouldn't believe, right? Like there's some movies that actors are still waiting to be paid for, right? Right? You've done a movie two years ago. You still haven't been paid or four years ago. You still haven't been paid.

No one could do the order as to how much you grossed, right? How many tickets were sold? And how do you disbursed payment in the way that's transparent? So now you're going to have a full end-to-end system where the movie lovers can fund the movies, get to watch your movies for free, in addition to sharing the upside of the outcomes of the movies. So it means that everybody's guaranteed to be paid, whether you're the actor in a movie

or the way to the person who was holding the camera, your payments would be guaranteed, but also you build a closer relationship between those who love the movies and those who actually create the movies, which is, I always say commerce is a key thing. It's a problem across the world, whether you want a publisher of a game to build a closer relationship to the players of a game,

whether you want the watches of movies to be closer to those who actually create the movies, that element of like brittle building that bridge where there are too many intermediaries that exist today is going to be broken. That's what the decentralized stack solves for you. Cool. Well, thanks so much for coming on it. It was really great. And yeah, super exciting to talk with you. Thanks very much. It was a pleasure.