Epicenter - Learn about Crypto, Blockchain, Ethereum, Bitcoin and Distributed Technologies - Spin-Offs, Bitcoin Debit Card, BIP38-Cold Storage and Bitcoin Undone?

Episode Date: April 28, 2014

After having guests on for our last few episodes, it was back to the original cast of Brian and Sebastien for an episode. Episode links: Spin-offs on Bitcoin Talk Forum BitUndo Xapo debit card Bit-Card This episode is hosted by Brian Fabian Crain and Sébastien Couture. Show notes and listening options: epicenter.tv/017

Hello, Voran, welcome to Epsteinorbitcoin episode 17. Today is April 28, 2014. My name is Sebastian Kutur. I'm a user experience designer and developer from Canada, and I'm based in Lille France. I'm also the founder and organizer of Bitcoin Talks Lille. And I'm Brian Tom and Kornikovina. I'm a Bitcoin entrepreneur,

economist based in Berlin, and the founder of Berlin Group. How are you doing, Brian? Yeah, good. Good. How are you? Not bad. Pretty good. Did you have a meet-up this week?

Yeah, we had a meetup this week. On Tuesday, we had, I gave a talk on a bit card and kind of cold storage with 538. So we're going to touch on that later today. Yeah, I'm really interesting hearing about that. Yeah. And then we had a talk about an interesting idea. So one of the guys who won the hackathon we organized, earlier in March, I think, and they went to Texas to the Bitcoin Conference there and

participated in the hackathon there. They used talking about his project there, which is also kind of interesting. Remind you what was this project? I don't think we talked about it before. It's called Reputation Coin or something like that. Yeah, I think we did mention it. Yeah, so the idea is that, you know, if you sell something online, eBay or all those places

that have a reputation system that gives you a certain assurance that the other person is not a scam and if you if you want to decentralize so the idea would be how can you decentralize that and sort of have some application you know on the blockchain

so you could maybe give feedback links to Bitcoin payments you know on a separate blockchain but maybe it's the same private key you would sign a feedback message I mean, it's an interesting idea, of course, but I don't know if it's possible. I don't think they've figured out how to do it, but it's a big challenge. So it's basically a feedback system that is somehow pegged to the blockchain and the transaction

and your private key. So the issue over transaction is the only one who can actually sign one of these feedback messages? Yeah, kind of like that. Of course, the issue would be, and the advantage is you do know there's an economic transaction, so you can see that money is gone from one another to the other. Of course, the problem is that you just send it to yourself and then give yourself feedback that way. So I think there are a lot of areas where this is vulnerable to people cheating. And that's, of course, a real problem. So I don't think they figured it out, but if they could, that would be huge, because you could essentially replace eBay or all those, um, marketplace that are, you know,

those peer to peer marketplaces that, um, where reputation is really one of the core features. So if you can replace that, then that would be very powerful. But I don't know if it's been be possible. Yeah, this has been a topic of discussion, these reputation systems. And for instance, I was listening to Coincider this, the last episode I think with Andrew Stamptonopoulos. And what he says is that these kind of decentralized marketplaces will become commonplace. And I think that's a really kind of interesting future where you have these decentralized

marketplaces where you can give reputation. Now, how that actually is going to work, I think we still need to figure out. But I'm interested in the future where you have a decentralized system where consumers and users and what have you can give feedback to merchants or companies they deal with. What he uses as an example is arbitration systems, for instance, where you have. a market of arbitrators and each would have a rating, but this system would also be decentralized. So I think that's a really interesting prospect for the future. Yeah, no, I agree.

We got a few topics to cover. So today we're talking about a few things. We're talking about this proposal for all-coin currency distribution called spin-offs. be talking about a new startup called Bit Undo which proposes to effectively undo transactions. So we'll be discussing that. I think startup is a euphemistic term for this. Yeah. Okay.

So a company that has started. And also Zappo has announced that they'll be issuing a Bitcoin debit card. So that's pretty interesting. And also Brian will discuss his talk about coal storage in BIP 38. I'm really interested in learning more about this personally because I've been quite interested in this system. I'm still, I was waiting for you to really explain it so I could buy one and then probably put my some Bitcoin on it. Yeah, totally. So let's get started with the spin-offs idea.

So just briefly, this is something that was made. mentioned on our website. So when we posted the talk about, so we had an episode before where we discussed the side chains idea. And somebody posted a comment on our blog, said, why don't you check out the spin-offs idea? It's quite similar. So I did. And it is very interesting. So this was a post on Bitcoin talk just recently. And the basic idea is that you can use, if you issue an old coin, you could claim coins of that old coin using your Bitcoin private keys. So essentially, it would give anyone a right to claim shares of that all coins money distribution according to how many Bitcoin's they have.

So that's the basic idea. Now, I guess what they're trying to address here is the distribution issue because one of the criticism with many alt coins is that people create them in order to get rich. So if, like in this case, you know, Bitcoin holders are rewarded and they can claim it. Yet is, you can maybe prevent that. I'm a bit skeptical, honestly, on many points about this idea. But it's definitely a novel. And one thing that's also worth mentioning is that they already have a version of this plant or an old coin plant which is going to be an ethereum clone and i don't know if you mentioned this last week if we touched on yes stephan had mentioned that there was an ethereum clone

and this is actually that that that clone aetherium yeah exactly so so the ethereum guys are going to do fund races or people maybe invest will invest who knows 20 million dollars or more i think that's quite likely and if they're going to just but this is open source so you can just clone it and so those guys are going to clone it and they're basically going to wipe out the fundraiser and anyone who has bitcoins can use their private keys to claim parts of this aetherium or i don't know how you pronounce it uh new coin and you know functionally would be equivalent but of course distribution wise it would be totally different so uh I don't know if it's really a threat to Ethereum.

Of course, the question there is how much of a network effect do you have? How important is it that there's a development team and all those because those guys won't want to switch. My first kind of instinctive reaction to this is, so like you said, it would enable Bitcoin holders to claim altcoins. My first question is, like, what gives Bitcoin holders more legitimacy to claim an alt-coin than anybody else? I find it interesting that we're discussing these things and proposing possible solutions to fix some known problems. But why is a Bitcoin early adopter, for instance, more entitled to anybody else than to having

alt coins distributed to him. That's a great question, and I was asking myself the same thing. He does have an answer in that post, and I'm just going to quote this one sentence, by tempting you with unimaginable wealth during a rally and then threatening to take it all away during the crash, the free market has become a highly efficient computer, continuously refining the answer to the question, what is the most efficient distribution of coins in a cryptocurrency? So essentially what he's claiming here is that, you know, Bitcoin, for some magical reason that is not clear to me, is the most efficient, or has over time been the most efficient

distribution of coins. He doesn't define efficient. I think it makes no sense whatsoever. So I totally agree. It does not make any sense to me why this awarding it to Bitcoin holders is any more fair than, like, for example, doing a fundraiser and awarding the founders. Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but he doesn't really provide an argument for why it should be. Right. Yeah. But again, if we take on the other side of it, like, if you consider Bitcoin and

cryptocurrencies to be a startup, right? A lot of times we make that kind of parallel where you can consider Bitcoin to be a new company and you invest in that company. If you're creating an altcoin, that model, I guess, is yours to choose. So some will do a sort of an IPO model, you know, if you want to do this and you think that Bitcoin holders are more entitled to your coin than others than I get. But as long as this doesn't become sort of a standard, I guess, and we still have options. Yeah, I don't think there's a danger of this becoming a standard.

Yeah. It's interesting to have options, right? This is another option. And if you want to create an altcoin and enable your Bitcoin holders to claim some of that altcoin, then that's another option for you that you'll implement in your altcoin. If you want to do an IPO style thing, you do an IPO style thing. if you want to airdrop them like they did in Iceland with Aurora coin, then that's another option. Yeah, this does have some advantages.

And one of the main ones is that it does give a potentially wide distribution of coins, because there are, I don't know, probably more than a million people owning some Bitcoin. and, of course, having a more wider distribution, more people using the coin is an advantage for currency, like having a broader user base. And if you give it to any Bitcoin user for free, then that's a great way to achieve a wide distribution. I have to say, though, if we compare it to the sidechains idea, one of the things that the sidechains ideas wants to address is a digital scarcity.

So the problem that when you have a scarce asset like Bitcoin, but now you have all those old coins that can essentially do the same thing, it's not so scarce anymore. And this doesn't, sidechains does address that. I think the sidechains proposal does address that because you have a limited amount of Bitcoin, you can move it to different places, even this kind of old coin-like side chains,

but you can't create more of them. Because if you move them to a side chain, then your Bitcoin is locked for them. that time. You can unlock it only by destroying the side chain coin. But here, your Bitcoin keeps having the same value and functionality. So if 10 old coins are going to be issued using this spin-off model, then essentially, you know, you can have Bitcoin and coins in all those 10 old coins. So it doesn't address the issue of kind of inflation and undermining of digital scarcity at all.

Yeah, because I mean, you're not burning your Bitcoin to, in the proposal, they're not proposing to burn the Bitcoin just to kind of claim them based on the amount of Bitcoin that you have. Yeah. Another issue is, I don't know how, someone mentioned that on Bitcoin talked in a comment, is if my private key now controls some amount of Bitcoin and also some amount of, I don't or alt-coin something that was issued with the spin-off model. And now the old-coin money issuance ends because it's only limited.

You can only claim your money in that spin-off coin for, let's say, a month or something. Then my Bitcoin is not really exchangeable anymore to the same. Is it? No, maybe it is, actually. Yeah, no, I think I was wrong there. But the limited money issues actually brings up and over a problem. Because this is the thing with pre-mine, right? So you start an old coin and you mine it first and then you tell everyone about it,

but you've already accumulated a lot of them. So of course that's kind of a way to scam, one could say. And we can have something kind of similar here. If you create a spin-off coin and you don't tell anyone about it, And then you tell people about it, but it's too late for people to claim it with their bitcoins. Then you know, you actually have the same thing. Yeah. So this doesn't solve the problem of a pump and dump really at all.

It's just another way of doing it. Like I said, I think there's issues with this. And I think to me, the one that kind of strikes me as most obvious is it, it doesn't address that issue of scarcity, which, I mean, I mean, it clearly isn't trying to. But it just further kind of reinforces that the, I guess, the problem that we have with Bitcoin, one of the problems that exists in Bitcoin is that early adopters have the control over the most coins. And this just gives them more control over more types of coins. other alt coins.

Yeah, no, that's, I think that's totally right. Yeah, that is a problem and this doesn't solve the problem. I think something like the Aurora coin, even though I think it's difficult to implement it in a decentralized way, I think that would be the way to approach this problem. So if you want to learn more about this, there hasn't been really much written about it other than the Bitcoin Talk posts, has there? I don't know, actually. I only read to the Bitcoin Talk.

So if you search for Bitcoin Talks, spinoffs, bootstrap and alt-coin with a BTC blockchain-based initial distribution, you'll find it. There's quite a few. There's like, as of now, there's 10 pages of posts. So lots of discussion there.

And also, thanks to our listener for pointing this out. But his name, his I don't know his real name but on the blog there was digital currency DCIM was his a common handle so thanks for pointing out it is an interesting idea yeah thanks let's move on to bit undo yeah this is crazy I was reading about this actually someone told me about it at the meetup and I think I'd seen it and it was like ah and then I've been looking into it now and this is quite scary I think but yeah let me tell you what it is so bit undo is

essentially you can go to it it's like bidundue.com or something so it's a service and they try to help you double spend your bitcoins so let's say you buy something on a website and the website accepts a zero confirmation transaction then you can go to bit undo and create another transaction that instead of sending the money to the merchant, you send it to yourself, or you send it to a Bit Undue generated address, actually. And then Bit on Do is going to broadcast that, and you're going to try to pay a higher fee than the fee you paid.

So for a minor, you might say, oh, now I have two transactions and they conflict because they use the same inputs. Maybe I'm going to use that Bit on Due transaction because it gives me more money. and if then a block is mined where that transaction is in instead of the other one, the merchant just lost the money. You got the transaction, the unconfirmed transaction didn't get in a block.

So this is, and you can get your money back minus 10% fee to bid undo, which includes also what they paid to the miners because they pay more to the miners to incentivize that. Yeah, I mean, like you said, this is, like you said earlier, to call this a startup, I mean, it's kind of a criminal, it's really a way, it's a tool to scam people. Even though they claim, they phrase it as, you know, sometimes you make mistakes. You do this Bitcoin payment and instead of 0.2 Bitcoins, you send two Bitcoins and oh, now there's no way to revert it because Bitcoin payments are revertible. But we're providing the service for you with us you can try to

for a type of fee and of course that's like so completely fake and not credible at all. This is not what this is for. I mean if you legitimately make a mistake until you figured it out, it's too late anyway. It's only if you like know

I'm going to try to double spend. I'm going to spend some money and you know I'm going to go straight away the bit undue sent this out because it has to happen within a few minutes before the next happens yeah now i see i'm not i'm not so scared by this thing but because i'll tell you why first of all uh this is not for every bitcoin user you need to actually have bitcoin d installed because i wanted to try this and so i went and you know went through the process of doing it and

the last step is you have to have bitcoin d installed and you have to send us this the transaction I mean, one of the thing it says on the website is that they're having some affiliate program for wallet developers. So if as a wallet developer, you integrate Bit-on-Due. So you could give people, like, one-click, you know, submit your Bit-on-Due thing. Then they're going to give the wallet developer affiliate commission for any undone payments. So I think I can very well imagine some, I think, sure, some wallet developers will adopt this. someone will develop specific wallets for this and I think this is a big threat. Yeah, but again, so, okay, so say it does get easier, perhaps by having it integrated in

wallets. For now, it is, it is kind of, it is kind of hard to do. I mean, you have to have Bitcoin deinstalled. That's already an undertaking. You have to have the blockchain ready. like I'm still importing the blockchain because I had just formatted my Mac. But the thing is, this is only going to work for very small transactions, right? Because I mean, if you're going to buy, I don't know, a computer or say a car or something like that, they're going to wait for some confirmations before they're sending you the product. So if you're buying something online, for instance, by the time the product is shipped, your your transaction will have been confirmed.

If you're buying a coffee maybe, but... No, no, but unless it's a digital product, any digital product, or, you know, if you change in a currency for another one, okay, I guess they also wait for confirmation if you paid in an exchange. I think it's a huge for that. I mean, BitPay, all those companies,

they accept zero confirmation transactions by default. So I... I think this is a big threat. I think this is a totally a vulnerability of Bitcoin. It's something where the incentives aren't aligned. For a minor, it's actually rational in the sense to participate in this bit, the new thing.

So I think this is a threat. Yeah, but I don't think it's a long-term threat. Because these things illustrate that there are problems, and so now we're going to try to fix them. And so by perhaps changing the I don't know much about mining, but there must be ways that we can change the protocol to desentivize this kind of thing.

I don't know about that. Or this maybe we'll just push merchants to accept transactions only after one confirmation. That's a total disaster. I mean, that would make Bitcoin completely unusable and not competitive as a payment network. Yeah. I mean, if you, you know, you can't pay it rest.

you have to wait 10 minutes or maybe sometimes it's like 20 minutes for a confirmation to come through when you make a payment, forget about it. I mean, then again, whatever lower transaction costs we have versus credit cards, that's not enough. They're going to be inferior. So what do you think the solution is? I don't know. I don't know what the solution is.

It's not obvious to me. I guess in a sense, what is protecting here is that as a mind, pool. If you do this, maybe a lot of miners will say, I mean, I think this is obviously a threat to Bitcoin. And now if you say, I'm going to do this, even though in the short term it may help you make a little bit more money, it can also undermine your, you know, your bitcoins and the value in the long term. So in a sense, as a miner, if you have, 10 million dollars worth of mining hardware, you might say, I'm not going to do that to make 5% more profit now because it undermines the value of my hardware.

But this is a very, this is a very dangerous position to be in because some people will probably say, I'm going to do it anyway for more of a short-term profit. And then maybe the other one say, oh, I'm going to do it too, because if I don't do it, they do it and they get the money and I don't. So it's dangerous. I mean, I think it's to be definitely seen as a potential threat. I don't think that right now it is. I think that perhaps if this develops into something that's integrated into all wallets, it will be. No, it won't be integrated in all wallets. There's enough that it's, I mean, as a merchant, you don't care what wallet

customer uses. Let's say like one wallet integrates it or something like that. But I think that at this early stage in Bitcoin because it is still very early, it, much like

because they're using transaction maliability essentially to to undo these transactions. This is much worse in transaction malibability, I think.

Because transaction Maliability essentially was just a problem of wallets software looking it up the wrong way. This is a problem of the incentive structure, the economic incentive structure that transaction fees provide and minors have. You can't just change that. This is much harder to change. And the problem is you don't need to have very many people using this. Even if you have 3% of people using this bit undue wallet that maybe will develop soon where you can do like one click, try to undo your payment, that's disaster. And even if only 30% of them work or something, I mean, that creates a serious risk of double spending for merchants. I mean, even if it's only 2% of all your payments or double spend or 1%, that's a problem. Yeah, no, but what I was going to say is this is a red flag,

But the Bitcoin community and the Bitcoin development community need, I mean, we need to know that these problems exist in order to be able to fix them, you know. I think this has been known for, I saw somewhere this has been known for years. I mean, in a sense, it's quite obvious what they're doing. And it's obvious that those incentives are there. It's just no one's done it yet. But you're totally right. This needs to be fixed. It's just not immediately clear to me how it can be fixed.

And I don't think it's going to be. so trivial to fix this. I guess the risk here maybe is that like because I think this is even an open source project. Am I right? I read somewhere this was open source. I don't know that. No, maybe I'm wrong.

Okay. Maybe it is. I don't know. So I guess the risk is that like we have like bit claim your like double spend. com like other companies like this popping up and we have multiple ones and they start competing against each other for like the best, you know, the highest fees. whatever. I don't think that's, you mean, the danger is that you're going to have 20% of miners

are going to say, I'm going to participate there, and you're going to have, you know, 4%, 3% of Bitcoin users that are going to say, I'm going to try that out. And that's going to be enough to create a serious, serious problem for Bitcoin as a payment network, payment system. And I think it's a really big threat. I think we're going to fix it before Bitcoin becomes a mainstream payment system. To fix this, you need to completely change. You need to make some really serious changes.

It change how transaction fees work. It is not simple to fix. I don't know enough about how this is structured to. right now right well miners do if they get two conflicting payments they just take the first one right and that's that's fine because if you pay a merchant with bid pay bid pay is so well connected to like all the miners they're like super super fast in broadcasting the transaction that they say you know we're fine we take a small risk of there being an unspe you know um someone double spending the money or you know or zero not confirmed transaction going in the block

but it's small because we're so well connected we can broadcast it so fast that most of the miners get it before any attempt to you know double spend the money but okay see but now this is different because you don't bid on you doesn't have to be that well connected they can send it 20 seconds after bit pay but they, instead of paying, you know, one cent transaction fee, they're going to pay one dollar transaction fee. And now as a mine, I'd say, oh, I have, I don't confer, you know, I have two transactions that conflicting. Maybe I'm going to just take the one that pays me a higher fee.

So, in a sense, in a sense, it's really rational for miners to do this. And it was funny, because there was a coin desk article that. sort of mentioned this and they were not very critical of this which I thought was kind of yeah a bit worrying but they there was a quote just one second let me find it so so the guy who started acne he said that he acted as if this was the solution somehow and that you could have the replaced by fee could solve the double spending problem i.e. that unconfirmed transactions aren't so safe, in that it would force people to pay higher transaction fees so that someone can't come in and reverse the payment by offering the

minus more money. That makes no sense whatsoever. I mean, then you have a race where people pay higher and higher transaction fees in order to not get their transaction undone. I mean, that's a total disaster. Then you're going to have extremely high transactions. actually using Bitcoin. It's not going to be competitive at all with anything. So, yeah, I don't know. I think it's very worrying. I honestly think this is a serious to be a serious problem. And I hope there's going to be solution found. I think for the time being, it may not be such a problem because I'm sure most miners will not do this. And because perhaps it's kind of tedious to even try to do this undo attempt.

But I think at least they're trying to undo them. It's going to become easy. And if you're going to have miners do this, yeah, I really hope there's going to be a good solution for this. Yeah. I want to try it. I installed Bitcoin D and I'm just rebuilding the blockchain so I can try it to see if it actually works. Yeah, yeah. And you should try to buy something online, you know, with a service like BitStamp.

and try buy a digital growth or something that you get immediately. What's also important to realize is that the probability of this working depends on how many miners of course do this. So if there's only 2% of the miners that do this, there's going to be 1 in 50 chance of, or 2% of the mining power that are starting, the mining power that assists of you being able to reverse your payment. But the interesting thing is, so I could buy something online. I could buy a CD online that I really want, or a song online that I really want. You want to buy maybe a cassette instead of a CD?

Yeah. How about I send you a VHS? Yeah. But so you buy something, you pay with BitPay. and you're going to do your undue transaction. And now maybe you actually wanted this thing. So you have the good and there's a 1.850 chance that you're going to get your money back to. And maybe 49 times you don't get it.

It doesn't work. And then once I say, I have my money back and I have, you know, all those songs I bought. So, and they won't even know necessarily that you even try that if it doesn't. work. They will only know if it works. Yes. Again, I still think that the percentage of people that are going to do this, I don't even think it would be 1%. I mean, first of all, first of all, first of all, it has to be for

transactions that are confirmed that are sent out, I mean, for products that are sent out with zero confirmations. So if that's a physical good, I mean, you can forget about it because that good is not going to be sent until that transaction has gone through. If it's digital goods, perhaps, but take the percentage of digital goods that are issued right when a, at the point of transaction. So before there was any confirmation. And then subtract from that, like all the honest people, just take the dishonest people that even know about this.

I think it's going to be so small. Yeah, but I don't think it matters. I think even if it can be a very small percentage of cases of this happening, it's a real problem. It's like we have credit cards, right? Okay, there's only very few frauds, but it still adds, I don't know, 2% or something or to the transaction fees because someone has to pay for all this. This is the same here. You might only have very, very few people doing this, but it can create a huge burden and they can create huge costs and really totally undermine the trust in this. It doesn't have to be a lot of people, and it doesn't have to be a lot of minor. If you had 20%,

of miners or 10% of miners, it would be, it will cause problems. Yeah, I guess we'll see. I mean, so in order to do this, you have to go to bitundoo.com and you click on undo web app. They'll ask you for a transaction hash. So you have to provide the transaction hash. Then you have to specify which inputs and outputs you're trying to Is that how it is?

I mean, you specify the output and then the input, and then you have to specify, like, where you want it to go back, I think? I think they generate an address, you know, because they also take some money and then they do the, I think they do that for you. But yeah, you have to provide the original transaction. So I think transaction hash and inputs and outputs. Yeah, let's try this here right on live. So I'm going to get the transaction hash.

just a random transaction from blockchain. So here I'm going to put that transaction hash. It's loading. All right. So transaction amounts. So it's a transaction for 0.1 bitcoins. There are two outputs. So you can undo.

So for instance, like there's there's the transaction output and there's the change. So we'll just transit. It will just cancel that transaction output. So you can end, so from 0.1 to 0.01 bitcoins, you can undo 0.197 and the fee would be 0.01. So if I do next, now where do you want to put the money? They provide an address. And you can do it, undo transaction.

And so that makes your fee twice as high. That's a double fee for a private undue transaction. So essentially what they say is if you do this, if you enable private undue transaction, what it means is if it fails, no one's going to know that you try to undo the transaction. I'm not sure how to do that. Yeah. And then you click next. And it says, now what you should do is like from Bitcoin D, run Bitcoin D.

and sign the transaction and you know, they give you a piece of code to line, like a command to put in your terminal per command line interface. And then you have to provide the signed raw transaction. So like this is where I had to stop because I didn't have Bitcoin D installed.

Yeah, I think the private transaction, in a sense, right, as a miner, you will see that you get another conflicting transaction. And I guess, you know, anyone who has a lot of notes will see those too. So I think their private transaction may come from them running their own pool. So they have their own pool. And if you send it directly to that pool, of course, they maybe won't broadcast it to other nodes and pools. So nobody would know that you try to double spending.

And again, you may have an incentive as a minor to join their pool because they will have a higher, you know, you have higher return there. So anyway, I'm really curious what the solution is going to be. You know, I tried to Google a bit to see, like, does anybody have a response? I couldn't find anything. But let's see. I can't wait to see how this is addressed. This is fairly new, right? This came up like this week.

I think. Yeah. I guess you could have done this before, like manually yourself. But if no minor, you know, if no minor is going to pay attention to your higher transaction fee payment that you're trying to use to reverse it, then obviously not going to work. So you need to have enough, you know, enough attention that some, at least some non-natural percentage of miners are going to say, okay, we're going to do this.

Well, I guess we'll see where it goes. Again, I'm not, for the time being, I'm not very worried about. Let's wait and see what people have to say about it and if there are some ways to fix it. Yeah, we'll have to. All right. So let's talk about the Zappo credit card. This is super exciting. So first we bring you the shitty news and then we bring you the exciting news.

So Zappo, we talked about them before. So Zappo.com, they call themselves a Bitcoin bank, really. I mean, their business model is to hold your Bitcoin. So they have a cold wallet there that you can hold large amounts of Bitcoin for a reasonably low fee if you compare it to some of the other services like Elliptic Vault, for instance. And they have a hot wallet, which is a really cool little hot wallet. You can load up on your phone on a website. It's really easy to access. It's really easy to create.

And they're announcing, well, they just announced that they're going to be issuing a Bitcoin debit card. Now this is a little different from other cards that are already out there, which are like prepaid credit cards where you essentially load, you sell Bitcoin and load up cash on a prepaid visa or master card. This is actually a debit card. And so how this is going to work is you're going to have your hot wallet over at zapo.com. Let's say you have three Bitcoins on there.

Well, that balance, you'll be able to use the equivalent in whatever currency in that balance to pay for goods and services online or at brick and mortar stores. And I think this is really cool because it opens up the ability to pay for goods and services directly with your Bitcoin balance. Now, so apparently how this is going to work, Brian, you were saying that they will have, now that yeah because there's a corn test article about this which explains how it works so they have a deal with a bank they work with a bank who will essentially when you so the bank will issue the card and when you try to pay for something that bank will check with Zappo through

perhaps like some sort of an API if you have that balance and then and then as appo will say yeah so they've got the balance and then the bank will authorize that transaction and this will all happen very quickly now yeah and then Zappos will sell you bitcoins on BitStamp in like you know real time I guess or you know as close to you know maybe they'll have a tiny risk or something right but you know basically in real time you know your conversion rate is going to be clear and then they're going to use that money from BitSamp you know to send to the bank so pretty cool no I guess so just there

It's worth mentioning there's going to be a $15 activation fee, like a one-time activation fee. At first when I read this, I was kind of worried that it would be like a super high fee card to use. Like I've used cards like this for services like Plymouths, which are kind of like PayPal-like services, and they issue a card which allow you to access your balance directly. And the fees are extremely high. First, you have to pay like $20 a year to use it. you withdraw money from an ATM, like they charge you like $5 every time. From what it sounds like the CoinDest article, where the CEO kind of gave some clarification

about how this is going to work, that's not going to be the case. They're really trying to push users to be able to use their Bitcoin at merchants. And I think really the business business. business model behind this. This is just another service layer which will incentivize people to use their cold wallet, I think. I mean, like they say in that article, they're a Bitcoin bank, right? Their business model is to hold your Bitcoin and that's where they're making your money. So if they can provide that service at a reasonable cost and provide a secure service that is trusted and has some long-term sort of, you know, some long-term sort of

reputation, people will use it and that means that they're making money on that service. And this is a other service layer on top of that, which makes it even more alluring to use Zappo. Yeah, that's right. So they're charging on the cold world, I think if I remember correctly, like 0.12% per year. So of course you could compare to other services like elliptic vault, we had calculated as much advantages. Oh, way made way cheaper. Yeah. No, this is a I mean really good price for it because it's insured as well. At least they say so. Um, you know, probably true. So I like the probably true.

It's probably true. Let's put all our bitcoins over there. No, I think this is great. Also, maybe worth mentioning they so the merchant's going to pay the normal. master card fee. So in a sense, it's a slight disadvantage, or it is this disadvantage versus, you know, it's just paying with Bitcoin because, you know, the lower transaction fees aren't there. You're going to have your regular MasterCard transaction fees.

And from that perspective, yeah, but of course it opens up millions of places that accept, you know, MasterCard or whatever payment network they will use. So, yeah, this is cool. I want to say something else and I can't include it. So right now, yeah, you're right. This doesn't change the existing model. I think it's a kind of an intermediate, intermediate solution to be able to spend your Bitcoin. It provides another layer of service, but this is not what we're trying to do, right? We're not trying to

you know, mix the existing model with the new model. We want to destroy the existing model. So I think this is a necessary step in order to allow people to use their bitcoins and spend them in stores. But this is not like a long-term solution by any means. Well, it's not all. This is not what we're trying to achieve. Depends how you. Yeah, no, sure, of course. It will be preferable if merchants just accept Bitcoin, you pay with Bitcoin, you know, it's cool.

But, you know, if you talk about long-term solution, you know, until what time is MasterCard? or going to have a bigger reach than Bitcoin, you know, it's probably going to be at least another five years or 10 years. I was going to say 12 months. Yeah. So, I mean, they have millions of versions you can pay with MasterCard.

And Bitcoin, I think, is 60,000 now. You know, this, for quite a long time, this is going to give you much bigger reach in terms of payments. And of course, you can have both, right? You can have the, like, say, Zappos app,

and I'm sure you can have a mobile app and everything that you can use to pay if they accept Bitcoin or you could have the card to pay if they don't accept Bitcoin, still a few bitcoins, but just using that kind of master card working around. Now, this is interesting. I was thinking about this.

So in the U.S., you have to pay capital gains on capital gains tax on your gains so I wonder if and Zappo being in the US they're based in California I wonder if they're going to integrate some sort of a tool which will allow you like in your wallet to calculate how much you made on every transaction oh that's a great question this would be a really interesting service now if they provided this this would kind of alleviate some of those problems that we were discussing and they would be you know that that would be a really good service so the all these services layers that they can build on top of this.

I wouldn't be surprised if they announced this within a few months. No, that's, you're totally right. This is a, yeah, there's a great question. I didn't think of this. But no, you're absolutely right. I think they'll have to do this. Otherwise, it's going to be, you know,

impossible for people to get a taxis right. But, you know, if you have something like them and they, I mean, for them, it will also be, you know. It'd be pretty easy to do that thing. Well, but you will have to give them the price at which you bought the bitcoins in. If you have your Sapper's wallet and you transfer the bitcoins in, they don't know how much you pay for them.

So they won't be able to calculate any tax liability we have. That's true. Actually, in a sense, it's impossible for them to do it because I think the way you're going to have to calculate the taxes is this like first in, first out idea. So you first Bitcoin, you bought. and then the first Bitcoin you sold, you really have to calculate the capital gains versus the first time you bought it, right?

So if you bought one in between a dozen town. That's true. So even if Sappho sold bitcoins like Coinbase does, that's not necessarily relevant for calculating your tax liability because they will have to know about all your Bitcoin purchases anywhere. So I think it's actually very tricky to do. But I think they'll probably try it. maybe hopefully it'll try to do something to solve this problem so that at least if you bought

in zappers they'll have some some sort of calculation even if it's a bit wrong yeah but they don't sell for now i mean for now it's just a wall they're just the bank but maybe they'll start yeah perhaps and i'm wondering you know can they offer can they give you that information just on the on the tail end so um they can give you the right i guess they can i don't know Yeah, I mean, they can give you the other half. I mean, they can't give you the information about what you purchased, but if they give you the other half and the price at which you sold it, then I guess it's up to you to figure out.

Yeah, but you don't want to be the one putting those information together. That would be a very, very unpleasant weekend. Yeah. Yeah. Just thinking about having to do my taxes. Makes me think I'm going to have an unpleasant weekend. at some point. Yeah.

Are you going to try to do that? No, because I haven't really, I mean, aside from the beers I buy at La Machine on my Bitcoin meetup nights, and I think I probably lost money there. Yeah. Yeah, because most of the Bitcoins I bought back when it was up at, uh six or seven hundred euros and then i bought someone i was in germany and it was like 500 then so yeah i'm probably losing money

yeah i mean i also didn't spend enough money in because for this to you know become really relevant yeah plus like france hasn't issued any guidelines yet so yeah not worried about it uh yeah this is really this really cool though. I mean, I definitely have signed up for one. I think that, like, right now they're taking signups. So it's worth mentioning that it's in pre-order right now. I'm not sure when they're coming out. Have they mentioned when it's coming out?

Within two months. So we anticipate shipping the hybrid carbon within two months. Is it Americans only? I don't know. I would think so. I'm not sure. I don't think so. I think it's easy for them to issue it everywhere.

Yeah, maybe not. Yeah. Because I mean like Plymouth, I was using Plymouth and they're in the States and I was getting a credit, I could easily get a credit card. I had more fees though, but I could get it here. So I think that you, right now they're accepting pre-order, which means that you basically have to create an account. So when you, I already had a Zappo account and when I tried to pre-order, I gave my email

address and it took me to the sign up page. So I think that like existing users are probably just going to get an email saying like do you want to order your card. So this is a this is I guess also a good way for them to have new accounts, right, new users. Because people are people that want to pre-order basically have to create an account with them. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So this is cool. And I'm really looking forward to like I'm just signing into my Zappo again. I'm really looking forward to them developing new service layers on top of it.

Like when I first started, when I first signed up, for example, I thought that it was an interesting wallet solution for iPhone users because it's really easy to set up your account and it's right in your browser and like if they had like a web app, like they could easily turn this into a web app with just like one click basically. only problem really for now is that like there's no they haven't integrated the I don't know how technically feasible this is but they haven't integrated the webcam option into the web app so if you want to send money to someone you have to either enter their name email address which means that their example user or bitcoin address but they don't have the webcam

button so but I don't know if it's I don't know if that's feasible in Safari mobile yet But other than that, I think it's a promising company. Then again, I'm just a little reluctant in putting my Bitcoins in their vault. I just logged in again because I also have one and I realized they have a four-digit pin they require to log in. Yeah. What's that? We had mentioned this before. So the Coldwall, the Hallwall rather, I think it's meant to be really easy, right?

So I think you really need to look at this hot wallet, like a wallet that you would have on your phone, like Mycelium, for instance, where it's meant to be really easy to access, but you're really not supposed to have a lot of money in there. So if you use like Andrea Schiltbach's wallet, there's no pin code. Like anybody who picks up your phone can log into it, can use it. If you use Mycelium or some other wallet, you can have a four-digit pin code just to protect. protect your wallet. So I think this is the same kind of model where they want to make it really easy for you to be able to access. I think it would be really simple for them to even make this a web app.

In fact, if you go to Zappo.com on your iPhone and you just add a bookmark to your homepage, it essentially becomes a web app where you can just launch it like an application, enter your email address and your four-digit pin code in a sense that's even more secure than having simply a pin code on an app wallet, you also have that other layer of security, which is your email address. But again, you shouldn't keep large amounts of Bitcoin in here. Now, when you go to the cold wallet side, then you have secure password, I think they even have too fast or authentication. But I think there's a real opportunity for them to educate about this. because when you create an account, they did mention,

I think I remember when I created my account, there was kind of a little page there that said, like, this is your hot wallet, you shouldn't keep large amounts of Bitcoin in here, but I think that they perhaps need to kind of make that even more clear by, like, if you have lots of money in there, like, they would give you a little notice that says, okay, you should keep this in your cold storage.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was just noticing one, because they're charging this 0.1, 2% annual fee. Well, I think what they do is they charge it up front. So they charge you when you deposit money in the vault. They charge you up front for a year.

Yeah. So it makes it slightly less attractive. But still, you know, it's still a good price. Yeah. No, I'm, I really like their, their philosophy and the model, like the philosophy, if I can, a cold wallet and a hot wallet. I think it's a company that needs to be further looked into, I guess. And they have this new thing now where you can earn Bitcoins.

So they have this kind of like affiliation thing on their wallet page where like if you if you like for instance, if I go to buy something on like a local merchant, they'll pay me in Satoshi's like if I buy something on Ivorchet for instance I get a million Satoshes Oh okay Yeah I think they're just giving you like a cut of affiliate affiliate revenue or whatever lead revenue or something like that

Oh yeah that's interesting yeah Are you getting that too and you're Yeah yeah I'm seeing that But you're seeing German merchants right Because I'm seeing like all French merchants I think I'm seeing Yeah some German ones Yeah, they've got a partnership with trial pay.

Okay, yeah, so it's like a lead acquisition company. Hmm, cool. Yeah, it's interesting. Let's follow this up, and I think it will be great to try out that card. Yeah, definitely. Looking forward to it. So let's touch on our last topic, which is kind of related to also to the cold vault idea. that Glamas has, and it's something I gave a talk on Tuesday about,

which is cold storage using dip 38 encrypted wallets. And particularly, I was kind of testing out the system by a company called BitCard. Now, if you want to check out the website, it's bit-card.com, and that redirects you to a bitcard, bit-card.com. So it's a German company. I don't know. Did you meet him, Carson? He was...

No, I don't think I... Maybe not, yeah. But if you might have seen, their cards have been used as name packs on some Bitcoin conferences. I have one of their cards. Like, I have a wallet card. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some guy was distributing them at the German con. That's right.

The Beirling company. The Seed coin guy. So you can also get branded cards. So you can like have your brand on it and get the cards. But those are same. simple paper wallet. So if I steal the wallet, rub it open, I have the coins. Like a genia bottle. Like the hologram.

So what I was talking about was another system, which is you can actually make a really secure system where here's how it works. The whole idea is that you use a password to generate some code. and only with that password can you afterwards control the funds. Now, so it works like this. You go on a site like bit2factor.org, then at the top, it has passphrase. So you can enter passphrase there.

And then it uses the script algorithm to generate an intermediate code. So script takes very long. It's very computational intensive. So if you're going to try to brute force it, it's going to be impossible. So you're going to put in a password. You're going to intermediate code. Then you send that intermediate code to a bitcard, and they're going to use that intermediate code to generate an encrypted private key

and the Bitcoin address. And now they don't know, they can't control the Bitcoins in that, and they don't know your passphrase. And only you can afterwards control the Bitcoins using that passphrase. Does that make sense? Yeah. So they're going to send you the cards afterwards, and you can transfer money on that. But the point is, they have no control over it at any point.

So even if BitCard is corrupt, they can steal your money. And what's also cool is even if your computer is corrupt, you have malware on it, a key logger or something. And they get the passphrase, you type in there, that's not going to be a very important. any use unless you also have the physical card. Right, right. Yeah. No, I really like this. And what I like about it is that it's the Bit38 implementation.

So this is a protocol, not a protocol, but it's a, it's a, what would you call it? It's a, yeah, no, it's a protocol. It's not built into the protocol, but it's, it's a method, it's a means to generate public and private keys. What I really like about this is that you only give to Bit38 a confirmation code, which they use... The intermediate code. Right, the intermediate code. They never have access to your public and private keys.

Public key, yes. They don't have access to your private keys, sorry. Yeah. Which is really interesting. And also, like, the fact that you can't really brute force this. Now, just to be clear, this is not a brain wallet. This is not like, you know, let's generate a private key based on some sentence or something like that. This is much more complex.

And you have the slides up. So anybody who wants to see them, I, if you go to slideshare.com slash epicenter Bitcoin, you'll see their epicenter Bitcoin has liked Brian's post. So if you want to see those slides, and Brian did a nice graph. on how this works. Yeah, it's also worth mentioning there are BIP 38, there's actually two things. There's kind of two different protocols in BIP 38.

One is you have a private key and then you encrypt it on a paper wallet. So I think the normal paper wallets are also BIP 38, but it's different because the key generation is not split up. So you can take any private key and encrypted using BAP 38, but the other BAP 38, this is different because you don't know

what private key you're going to get, but this is a way of generating a private key from a passphrase that's split up. So it's slightly confusing there because there's really two quite different procedures under the same umbrella. So, you know, if you go bid address or something like that where you can use

generate paper wallet, I think they also use BAPA 38, but that other thing. I think. I'm actually not quite sure how they do it. Now, can you go. Can you explain this? Can you explain this?

So on your slides, on slide 10, you explain the bit 38. Can you kind of go through how this works? Yeah, so once again, you put in a passphrase, then script runs through, and it generates an intermediate code. This is going to take a long time. With JavaScript in the browser, it takes five seconds.

or something. And I think even on the computer, if you do this, you can only do maybe five guesses a minute. I think that's a second. I think that's what Carson told me is the most he gets on a really fast computer. And then you take that in the media code, you send it to a bit card

or in the order when you order the cards, you enter it. There's a feel for it. Okay, yeah. Then they used that to generate an encrypted private key, an address, and also this confirmation code. but let's not go into that. And then basically you get the cards and you know,

you can transfer money on there. Now if you want to spend from there, you need to import it in, for example, blockchain. Infraports it. So you can import in blockchain. That's cool. Yeah, yeah. So, and then they're going to prompt you for the passphrase

and then they're going to use the passphrase to decrypted. Now, of course, once you've done that, it's not the cold wallet anymore. Yeah. No, that's really cool because I was worried about, I was thinking, like, so if I want to do this, I've got to go back on two-bit factor, put in my confirmation code and my encrypted private key, and then I got to, like, import them into a wallet. But if blockchain info just supports it, then you can just import it right there. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.

I wish, like, I hope SAP would do this also. Yeah, I think it's, I mean, this is a standard protocol, kind of. So I think it's quite like, I think there are all the relatives that support this. And yeah, I think it's quite likely. And also just very briefly, so the way you could, the way you could, they also allow you to get several cards, right? So you can have the encrypted card several times. And then it says like one out of two and two out of two or you could have three of them or something and put it in different places. So here is how you could do a secure system of that.

I have it on like slide 13, how you kind of organize this. So one is the passphrase you just know in your head. And it doesn't have to be that secure because you can't brute force it with script. So it can be, you know, monkey 927 or something will probably be good enough. So you have the passphrase, you know that in your head. You can also have a receive only card where it's just your Bitcoin addresses on there. And then at home, for example, you could have your encrypted card. Now even if someone steals your encrypted card, they can't.

do anything without the password, which only you know. Yeah, and these cards, like, you can even get them without a hologram. That's how, like, you don't have to protect that pass, that, uh... No, you don't. Right. Yeah, yeah. And then you could say, I'm going to put the password on paper in your parents' house, because after all, you could forget the paper, you could forget the password, or something could happen to you, you could have an accident or something, and then how would somebody be able to recover it? So you need to have a... back up somewhere else with the paper password and you could have instructions in there.

You know, if something happens to me, you'll get the card from my house and then do this. And you could, for example, take another encrypted card and put it in a bank safe. Now, if you did that, there is really, it's extremely secure. So you have the bank save and encrypted card, at home, encrypted card, the password in your head, and the password on paper somewhere else. and you could take out any of those four elements. You could die, your house could burn down, or your parents could, you know, run away with your password or something.

Or the bank could say, I'm not giving you your save anymore. Any of those things could happen. As long as not two things happen at the same time, you're fine. Yeah, I really like this. I'm going to get one. I'm going to get one and try it out. Yeah, and they're pretty cheap. cheap. They're like two euros a card or something or three.

So the way I did it, you need three cards for that. So it's, you know, it's like less than 10 euros, I think. You bought some, right? Of course. Yeah. Oh, he sent me some. Okay. Yeah. I really like this. And I think, um, uh, I think I'll probably discuss it in my next meetup also. Yeah, yeah, no. People have been asking about it. I think, I think, Because the reason really why I gave this talk was because I was wondering, what's the best way for someone who's not technically adept to store their bitcoins? If they put in, you know, a substantial amount, you know, if it's a small amount, maybe it's fine on your mobile phone or on your desktop.

But if it's a bigger amount and if it got stolen, that would be really, really painful. Then you want to have something more secure. And the problem is, for example, with paper wallets. Now, paper wallets are great as long as your computer is safe. But if you have malware on your computer, then, you know, that can be a problem. And this here works even if... Okay, wait, wait, wait. I don't see how this protects you against malware, because if there's malware on your computer,

like a key logger, for instance, it will... It will get your passphrase. Yeah. You'll be able to get your passphrase and possibly even your confirmation code. Well, no. So it can get your passphrase and your intermediate code. But the thing is... Yeah, you can, from the intermediate code, you can create various encrypted private keys and Bitcoin Adiosis.

This is not their terministic. It's not one. Oh. So they don't know, even if they have that, that's useless. because they need the encrypted private key as well. And you don't even know what the encrypted private keys, big cards are going to generate until they send you the cards in the mail. And that's based on what?

So with that intermediate code, so the big card, they generate an encrypted private key. So basically with that same intermediate code, you can generate multiple encrypted. Yeah, any number of them. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so then somebody could have the same passphrase with and have different keys?

That's right, yeah, yeah. You could control different wallets with the same passphrase. Whoa, okay. And so how does that, how do, what, what's the variable upon which those different keys are generated? Like this bit 38, this bit card or the, whoever makes the card. they have also like a random number or something that they use. Yeah, you can check out the white paper. There's a BIP 38, like the improvement proposal.

Quite frankly, it's not easy to understand. I can't imagine. You know, it's like the seventh step, like first do this and then you take like the hash of that and the salt of that and then you do this, et cetera. So there's a standard way of doing that. It's also part of BIP 38, how you take the intermediate code and generate those things. You know, it uses like Shaw-256 and some other things. I don't understand those details quite.

But the general idea is, yeah, you can take the intermediate code and generate any amount of encrypted private keys and addresses. I really like this. Like, ever since you first told me about this a few weeks ago, a few months ago. I should point out one guy at the meetup said, and this was, I didn't even think of it, although it's quite obvious. You don't even need BitCard for that. You could do it yourself. Right. So you could, for example, go somewhere else to someone else's computer and generate, go on Bit2 factors, generate the intermediate code there, and send it to yourself and generate your own private, own paper wallet at home.

Right. Now, that would also work. Of course, the cards are quite nice. I like that. And, you know, it would feel, you know, it might feel nicer to have, you know, a card and instructions, et cetera. Much longer. The cards last longer. Otherwise, it's on paper, et cetera.

But you can actually do this yourself. And it will be, I think, very safe. And so, yeah, I think this is the safest way for technically non-adept user of storing a substantial amount of Bitcoin. And even technical users, I mean. And it's pretty easy. Yeah. Yeah.

Like right now I'm using like Armory on a Raspberry Pi and I get a I gave the seed to a friend. But like I think I'm going to do this rather. I mean, it's much more secure and. Yeah. I mean, with the Armory seat, I mean, there's one seat. Someone stills a seat. They have your coins. So here you have a two factor thing.

Now, Army does allow you to split the seed, I think. So if you did that, I mean, I think you can build a system with Army. You know, Army is going to be as secure. It's actually more secure in a sense because once you spend it, you can generate a transaction offline with Armory. But here you have to take it online, you know, it loses being a cold wallet once you want to spend it. So this is really good for like long-term thing where you say,

I'm going to leave this there for two years or a year or something. but it's not you shouldn't put any money in there that you might spend in a few months right right no that's cool I like it I'm gonna get some awesome yeah so again if you want to check it out it's bit dashcard dot DE yeah very nice they've sold I don't know he told me they're sold like 100 over 100,000 of those really cool yeah yeah I haven't seen any other companies no there are some other companies that do that. Because they're in Germany.

I think they ship internationally also. Yeah, they ship anywhere. I think there's a community called like crypto cards or something like that that makes some. But I know those guys and I think the trustworthy and all and, you know, they have a, they're doing a great job. They're also cheap. I saw the other ones are like, you know, $16 a card or something.

But I don't think they're the only one. I think there's maybe one or two more, maybe more that are. providing that service. As crypto cards suggest you should put them in your freezer, then it's really cold storage. Imagine you get these cards as soon as you put them in like the freezer or in cold temperatures, they like wipe the code on it or something. Oh yeah, yeah. So that's another one.

So it's crypto-carts. Yeah. Dot com. And I mean, they're also uglier. oh god 16 yeah they're 15 bucks a card yeah so they're like they're like four times as expensive and they're ugly so i i would go with a big card but uh but there's definitely other solutions yeah cool now are you putting all your big one on this or like your long long term storage no i have the same thing you have basically have armory offline armory so no i i mean i have

like a dollar on it now because I was testing it. Yeah. Actually, you know, because I took it, I was also testing the importing thing. So that's just like this advantage. Once you import it in blockchain and I've done that to test it out, now it's really not cold anymore. So, I mean, I'm sure it's still reasonably safe to put money on there. Yeah, but it's not like, you can go and buy like. Yeah, I could just get another set. Right. That's right. What you can do, if you don't want to do like, if you don't want to, for instance, have to go through the hassle of generating your own encrypted passphrase, you can buy like maybe two or three of these. and then since the encrypted passphrase

doesn't have to be covered by a by a hologram you can copy it onto like paper and make like paper copies and put one in a bank safe or something like that where you know it's going to be safe or maybe like make a laminated laminated copy or something like that

like you know but when I say that again I don't know I mean you're still going to have to generate your yeah I'm saying you could buy like you could buy maybe four or five these right with different wallet addresses and and then make copies of them yourself on paper yeah yeah yeah oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

theoretically couldn't you because if you can generate uh yeah i mean you could use one passphrase to generate multiple cards with multiple keys also Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's really cool, too. So you could have basically like one, it's kind of like a seed. Like, in a way, you could have like your passphrase and generate multiple cards with that same password and not have to worry about remembering multiple passwords. No, no, that's totally right. Yeah.

This is awesome. I love this. I really like this. I'm going to get some of these. It's cool. It's cool. Yeah. We should definitely try to get this guy on the show at some point.

I asked him to do the talk at the meetup, you know. It's like, hey, why don't you do it? And I think he's like a bit, you know, he's a bit shy. So you rather had me do it at all. So I don't know if he wants to comment on the show. But yeah, no, it's great. I think it's great system. Awesome.

Well, I think that's all been good for today, right? Yeah, absolutely. So, no, no, that's, I think that's all. Well, maybe. So if you're going to be in Amsterdam, you should, I guess it's still a few weeks, but I'm going to be at the conference in Amsterdam. We also have Sean Jones, whom we had on a few weeks ago, when we talked about regulation. She's also going to go to the Amsterdam conference, and she's going to do some coverage for the podcast on regulation.

She's going to interview people and create some episodes. That's really, that's super nice of her to do that. Yeah, it's great. I'm very excited about what she's going to do. And, yeah, so get in touch. I'll remind again before, before that. I'll be there, so I'd love to meet some people. Unfortunately, I want people to make it.

Even though I'm just skipping a hop away. Yeah, that's a shame. Unfortunately, I have other engagements. All right, well, just also I wanted to mention, there's a good chance I won't be on the show next week. Actually, right now, as we're recording this, probably about in an hour, I've got to go to the train station and pick up my mother

who's arriving from Canada. So she's going to be here for the next two weeks. I'm not going to be on the show. I probably won't be on the show next Sunday. So it'll be just Brian and a guest. Do you know who's going to be on already? Not for certain yet. I've been in contact with a bit too idiot.

Some of you may know him. He was quite, he achieved some level of notoriety for breaking a lot of the news around Mount Gog. So he was like the first one to publish Leakeson the document and he has a blog and so um very hopefully he's going to come on because i think it would be super exciting cool awesome well if he comes on i'll try to make it because i'd really like to talk to him yeah yeah yeah i'll see what i can do yeah yeah okay all right well thanks very much for listening to our 17th episode uh you can follow us on twitter at uh episode at uh

episode of Bitcoin.com, sorry, Twitter.com slash Epicenter BTC. Also, you can give us a tip on epcenterbitcoin.com slash tips. We fixed our address problems where we're having, some people were telling us that our Dogecoin and like coin address is more valid, but that's been fixed. Also, give us feedback. Go on iTunes and write us a review or Stitcher or wherever you listen to your podcast. We'd love to get some feedback from our, from our listeners. Yeah, absolutely. And subscribe to a newsletter, which is at the websitebiscounticbittcom slash newsletter goes out every Friday. And I think that's it for now. We'll look forward to have you, you know, to talk again in a week. All right. Talk to you guys later.