Epicenter - Learn about Crypto, Blockchain, Ethereum, Bitcoin and Distributed Technologies - The DAO Security Fund: Turning a Historic Hack into Ethereum's Future | Griff Green

Episode Date: September 9, 2026

Ten years after The DAO hack changed Ethereum forever, Griff Green returns to Epicenter to discuss the next chapter: the DAO Security Fund.As a co-initiator of The DAO, Griff shares the untold story of recovering funds after the hack, why over 75,000 ETH remained untouched for years, and how its staking yield is now funding public goods for Ethereum security. The conversation also explores a provocative idea: Ethereum is incredibly secure—but still not safe for everyday users.Topics covered:1. The inside story of The DAO and its recovery2. Why the DAO hack may be the only hack where everyone made money3. The DAO Security Fund and funding Ethereum security4. Quadratic funding, grants & public goods5. Why phishing and UX remain Ethereum's biggest weakness6. Can Ethereum become safer than traditional banks?7. The future of safer wallets, OpSec, and the Ethereum Economic ZoneIf you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe for more conversations with the builders, founders and investors shaping the future of crypto.Links:Lido: https://lido.fi/stvaults?mtm_campaign=epicenterSponsors: Lido V3 introduces stVaults: a modular staking infrastructure that lets builders and institutions deploy custom staking vaults, while staying anchored to stETH as a shared liquidity layer.Get started building with Lido V3 today: https://lido.fi/stvaults?mtm_campaign=epicenterBlock Space Forum: https://blockspace.forum/NEAR AI Cloud now lets developers deploy OpenClaw—the rapidly growing open-source AI agent platform—inside Trusted Execution Environments, providing hardware-level encryption with cryptographic attestations. With OpenClaw on NEAR AI Cloud, you can run agents with cloud convenience, but without traditional cloud data exposure. No hardware to manage. No trust assumptions required. Learn more at near.ai.

Welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the technologies, projects, and people driving decentralization in the blockchain revolution. I'm Frederica Ernst, and I'm speaking with Griff Green today. My hot take is this is not made for end users. If you are a user, you have probably shouldn't be on Ethereum. Ethereum is super secure, but it's not safe. You can get fished. You can have your assets in a smart contract that gets hacked. You can send money to the right address on the wrong chain.

The Dow hack is probably. probably the only hack ever where everyone made money. Dow token holders got all of their ether back and ether classic. We just need to get more serious about making a safe environment for normal people. And then, like, if that was a priority, we would be there. But we've always had this cypherpunk priority. But we shouldn't force everyone down that route. We should actually give the people what they want, which is safety.

So far, we've actually been able to allocate over a thousand ether. to 135 different security projects. Hi guys, welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the technologies, projects, and people driving decentralization in the blockchain revolutioning. I'm Frederica Ernst and I'm speaking with Griff Green today, who has been on the show many times before. Today I'm speaking with him as the co-initiator of the Dow Security Fund. Before we speak with the Griff, let me tell you about our sponsors this week. This episode is brought to you by Lido. As Ethereum Staking continues to evolve,

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If you're just looking for a place to generate yield on your idle assets, Lido Earn makes it super simple. It offers curated defyphi strategies built around SDEth. You deposit once, you choose a vault and manage everything from a single interface. To learn more and start building with SDValtz, go to lydo.5 slash SDValtz and get in touch with LIDER contributors today. Graf, it's been a while. How have you been? Great. I've been having a lot of fun with the Dow Security Fund.

Super nice. Yeah, so kind of when the announcement came a while back, I was like, oh no, no, no. Now I have to convert my, no, no, no, now I have to convert kind of the remaining Dow tokens that I still hold. Because kind of like, I mean, they're backed still, right? You can always redeem them. So kind of like, I never. did. It's kind of like the original NFT, kind of the proof you were there.

And I was like, oh no, now kind of it's kind of my funds will be used in this for this great cause, but kind of they're my funds. What do I do? And then kind of I read about it more and was like, okay, it's actually fine. It's not my funds being used and so on.

So I assume almost everyone who listens to this podcast at this point knows about the Tao. But maybe let's talk about your specific role in the Tao scenario. And then we can talk about why so much Heath was left over and kind of what you and a couple of others went on to do with it then. Sure. You want me to just rants about the Tao in my role? I can go on. Make sure to interrupt me because I'm a hell of a ranter. Like, watch out.

Feel free. But yeah. So my first gig in crypto was the Dow and Slocut. So Slocut, so if we rewind to 2015, Ethereum just launched and a few members of the Ethereum Foundation broke off to start Slocut. Slocut was a, you know, a sharing economy startup. And their goal, Slocut stood for smart lock, right? And so the idea was, hey, we could put like a lock on a locker or turn on any kind of device, give that device its own Ethereum address and you could send money to that device. It would turn on or it would open up the lock and then you could take whatever's in that locker and you're good to go, right?

And so I jumped on to Slokit because of the sharing economy dream before the Dow existed. I was technically their first employee. Hard to say employee because I was like, I will work for free. I just want to be involved, you know. I came in as a community organizer. I was getting a degree in digital currencies. I have the first master's degree in digital currencies, the first degree ever in digital currencies that I collected

a week after the Dow was hacked. So I didn't really need it, but I didn't get it. And before that, I was a chemical engineer. But the reason I could be a community organizer was because I actually did a lot of grassroots activism for an NBA sports team's goals. the Seattle Supersonics in Seattle. And so I kind of led the community there. So I was like, I could bring those skills. They said they needed a community organizer. I was like, I could do that,

you know. And so they let me in. And so I built up the slack and we got it huge. I was doing, it felt like eventually with the DA, as the DAO came into the purpose, I felt like I was doing community organizing for Ethereum itself, because the community was so, So like the Dow community was so huge that it kind of took over Ethereum for a few months there. The reason that Slocut needed a Dow was because imagine you have a locker you could open up without talking to anyone. You know, people are going to put weed in that locker, right? Like, what are we going to do?

How are we going to build a global borderless, like universal sharing economy is what we were calling it? if we have to deal with some jurisdiction. Slocut was a German company, but we wanted to be in the Ethereum jurisdiction. So we are like, let's start a Dow, and the Dow will be in the Ethereum jurisdiction. It doesn't have a legal entity. It doesn't do anything.

You know, this is like the first really big Dow. There was Maker Dow, and there were some other Dow's, but this was like, you know, the first real big one that was like, we're just going to go for it. And, yeah, and it took off. It got everyone was excited about it. We had Vitalik and Alex Vandes Sunday and like every big name in Ethereum, Gavin Wood, that all of them were there as curators. And we also have this weird mechanism where the money doesn't just go to us.

You know, most token sales after this, it was like the money went into someone's multi-sig and they issued you a token. And there was no direct link between it. Here, if you put in one ether, you've got 100 Dow tokens. And the way the Dow was set up is that you could later split the Dow and burn 100 tokens and get your ether back. And that plus all the big names, plus just like the Dow being the first big Dow, it got out of control. We ended up raising 14% of all ether in existence at that time. 14% of the market cap of ether was in here. At the time, that was $150 million, which was $150 million, which was,

the largest crowd sale that ever happened to that point, anywhere, crypto or not. And so it was huge. And we were very famously hacked three weeks after that. And that's a whole story in itself. But being the community organizer, being the person who was most connected to all the people who were affected by that, I kind of took it upon myself to lead the recovery effort from the hack from almost every angle. The only angle I didn't really lead was the hard fork, like, work to actually implement the hard fork and all that, which was, of course, really critical and it supported as much as I could.

But there was all the other stuff, like the hacker only stole $50 million. So me and the Robin Hood group, which later became the Whitehap group, stole the other $100 million. So actually, we had in our contracts at 1.10% of all ether in existence that we hacked. That's kind of cool. And then also when the hard fork did happen, that created Ether Classic. And so on the Ether Classic chain, we're able to return 10% of all Ether Classic that we held to Dow token holders. We're also able to, which is really interesting because the Dow hack is probably the only hack ever where everyone made money. Dow token holders got all of their Ether back and Etherclass.

The Dow hacker has all as Ether Classic, so he made money. And actually, everyone in Ethereum got AirDroped Ether Classic. So even if you weren't involved, you were just hanging out in Ethereum and had some Ether, you made money. It's just like a really crazy thing that a hack could generate so much wealth. But like even the Ethereum Foundation, I believe they didn't have to, for over a year, they didn't have to sell any Ether because they could just sell their Ether Classic. So all of that aside, when the hard fork happened, that solved the problem for about 97% of the eth that was there. As in anyone could, during the hard, after the hard fork, turn in a hundred Dow tokens for one

ether with this hard fork contract, but there were edge cases. Three percent of the ether wasn't covered by the Dow token holders. It came from a variety of other places. And so I led a team to clean up the mess, take care of all the detail suite, wrote lots of of token contracts and lots of withdraw contracts. And we tried to keep it as simple as possible, but it was definitely more complex than the hard fork. And for the last 10 years, I've been helping people, especially with the edge cases, but even with now, lately,

it's also been people who just have Dow tokens and they're scared to touch ether scan because there's no UIs or anything. So I just like hold their hand and help them claim. And I've been doing that for a decade. And then, so now, Fathor, Now, fast forward to today and the Dow Security Fund, can I just go into the origins of that? Yes, absolutely. Maybe tell us how much of the ether that the Dow held was eventually returned,

and what percentage we're talking about that wasn't returned for whatever reason? Yeah, so about 99% of the ether in total was returned. Let me think. Wait, no, no. 98.6 percent, I think, 98.7 percent. I don't know. It changes, but somewhere in that, in that range, right? Close and up to... Okay, so about a good percent is left over. Yeah, like a little over 1 percent is left over. Now, and in October of 2025, when we started pushing this direction with more fervor, it was about 50 percent was in the Dow token withdrawal contract, the hard-for contract, which held about 80,000 ether. And that's like a 99.3% recovery. The other 0.7% you and I, for instance, we're in that, we're holding for numismatic value.

I like my Dow tokens. You know, they're always going to be worth one ether. I think that's cool. A hundred of them, at least, will always be worth one ether. And that is not touched by us at all. Like, that one is super secure. It's built into the protocol. But then there was this other 75,000 ether.

that was in a variety of contracts that we launched in 2016 before there were smart contract audits. They were managed by three of six multisig. And we're talking this multi-sig in 2016, they didn't have safe, okay? In fact, NOSIS didn't even make multi-sigs at that point. Okay, this is like really. None of you may remember,

but there was a time that Nosis did not produce multi-zigs. Yes, exactly. And the multi-sigs were really bad. Parity, yeah, Parity, Mitesik, and similar. Like, yeah, I mean, a year after the Dow hack, Jordi and I, you know Jordi, of course, your EEZ-C-T-O guy, right? Jordi and I, uh, hack, rescued $210 million from the parody multi-sig hack, right? So that the multisigs that we were using in 2016 really risky as well as all the contracts that we had deployed, they were a little risky. And we, well, you know, effectively Balancer got hacked. And, you know, when we deployed all this stuff, it was $6 million that went into these edge case funds, right? That 75,000, 80% of the funds that were in the edge case

situation were claimed. And that 20%, that was 75,000 Eath. At the time, that would have been a little over a million dollars. Now, in October 2025, it was $300 million. And we did not have $300 million worth of security. You know, we had a volunteer multi-sig whose keys have been exposed for a decade. Most of the people I couldn't even get a hold of for a month, you know, that were on this original multi-sig. And they were all volunteers. And they haven't been active. I didn't even know if they were going to all have their keys. Luckily, they did. And not to mention, like, what if you North, who knows if North Korea has some of our keys. And then the AI risk, Balancer got hacked in October 2025. And that kind of, you know, smacked us in the face. It was very scary. We were

already talking about like doing something with these funds potentially because PCC from, from CLE 911, Pascal, he actually reached out to me and it was like, hey, I saw that, you know, you have these funds that were supposed to be donated to Ethereum security, because that's what we said with the Edgecase funds. We said, hey, if you don't claim this, we're going to donate it. You know, come claim. We just never did. And so he's like, hey, maybe Seal 9-1-1.

It could support us or something. And so that was the initial initiation, but it wasn't really going anywhere. It was kind of an idea. But then when Balancer got hacked, we were all scared because really it didn't make sense to our current setup and we definitely needed to change the multi-sig, but like, where do we get the money? How do we do this?

And so the idea came up that we could stake it on the beacon chain and actually earn a revenue off the funds while leaving claims open. So, yes, when we started this initiative, no one who has claims has to worry about it. They can sit there and they will still be able to claim. They just, it's just now, instead of leaving their funds in some risky contracts, we still left some money in those contracts, so claims could keep going without any fear. But we took the bulk of it and we staked it. And now it's earning, it's earning us about five ether a day, a little over five ether a day.

And now we can use that, number one, for securing the funds and securing the setup with a more professional setup. And number two, actually fund all of Ethereum. security. So we have five ether a day that is dedicated to ecosystem-wide Ethereum initiatives, and Ethereum security initiatives. This episode is brought to you by Near AI Cloud. OpenClawn is one of the biggest stories in AI right now. Rapidly, it gained over 200,000 GitHub stars with adoption from Silicon Valley to Beijing. Why? Because OpenClaw makes it easy to create an AI agent that actually does stuff, like manager emails, brows the web, schedule appointments, and remember

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With OpenClaw on Near AI Cloud, you get cloud convenience without data exposure. There's no hardware to manage and no trust assumptions required. You can learn more at neer.a. Cool. So these funds were already kind of committed to security because kind of like in my, kind of like I had just assumed that a large part of it was symbolism. So kind of money left over from Ethereum's defining. security feature now being used from Ethereum defining security failure now being used to fund

Ethereum security. I mean, that's a beautiful picture right there. But kind of you're saying that kind of this was the plan all along. You just never got around to it. The symbolism was present in 2016. Basically, we wrote a blog post that said, hey, these edge case zones, when we, when I got the curators to. to join this three of six multi-sig, it was on the premise that they wouldn't have to do anything

after six months. It was a six-month commitment and after that, if no one claims the funds, we're going to donate it to a nonprofit for Ethereum security. That was, well, specifically smart contract security is what it says in the blog post. And at the time that was the only security we could think of, right? Now, of course, Ethereum security is a much broader concept and smart contracts are the things that are most secure. But yeah, at the time, that was that was the idea. It was a short-term thing. And then we kept extending it and extending it.

And then we just kind of like, ah, there was no one to donate it to, basically. So we just never did. And now it feels right to just leave the claims open and go the endowment approach. Yeah, I totally hear that. So the five ether day, that's currently around 10K US dollars, obviously kind of this is a lot of money to transfer to what? just one organization. So kind of tell us how the Dow Security Fund is set up.

How are you dispersing the funds to projects and how do you determine which ones are worthy? Yeah, so the Dow Security Fund, we put ourselves in the same breath as like Ethereum Institutional or ETH Labs or any of these new Ethereum startups that are coming up that are trying to focus on the Ethereum network and improving it for the needs of their users. For us, it's all a focus on security.

And the way we want to distribute funds, because right now the Ethereum Foundation is doing a great job. Ethereum is the most secure blockchain in the world, by far. I do think that there are opportunities to improve, of course. But we want to take a complementary approach to the Ethereum Foundation. Ethereum Foundation is very top-down. They decide what is secure and what they need to focus on, like the S in crops is for security, right?

So it's still a focus of the Ethereum Foundation. And we want to complement that by taking in more of an ecosystem, bottom-up approach. So while the Ethereum Foundation decides, like, we want to focus on improving the security here, there, and here. We actually really talk to the ecosystem more, and we do everything in a Dow way, actually. I know Daos are not very popular these days. I'm still a believer. Consider me guilty. Nice, Isha.

For everyone who's only listening to this, Griffith is wearing a t-shirt that says the Dow is back. Yeah, exactly. It's just like on the website. If you go to the Dow.com, you can basically see what the shirt is I'm wearing. But it's whether we like it or not, the The Foundation has their goals and what they want to focus on. And I think they do listen to the ecosystem, but not nearly as well as we're going to. We want to validate with the market all the funds that we're doing. So, like, for instance, the first thing that we did was we ran a quadratic funding round.

Quadratic funding is a really cool way where we put up 500 ETH as a matching pool. That was a little over a million dollars at the time. And then donations came in from the entire ecosystem of the 134 projects. The ones that got the most donations from the most people got a larger share of the matching pool. So instead of us just saying, hey, these are the projects we're going to reward, we actually allow the community to decide. And we, I'm not the biggest fan of just like, oh, wisdom of the crowds, we're good, especially in the security space. And so we have another group that is part of our Dow, you could say. It's not really a formal Dow so much, but we do have this NFT called

the ETH Security Badge. And it's been, it was. was given to... I have one. Yes, you do. Of course. Because, I mean, obviously you're a rock star in the security space. And there's 199 other of you, rock stars, that have an amplified voice in how we distribute our funds.

So in the last round, if we air dropped all the security badge holders somewhere around $350. $250 of it came from Sertic, 100 of it came from the Dow. And so every badge holder got $350 to donate for free. And they could also add their own money. And every donation from an ETH security badge holder was multiplied by four. So as far as influencing how our matching pool was distributed. So in the end, the badge holders distributed a little over half of the matching pool. And the rest of the matching pool was distributed by the community.

And we want to keep that kind of vibe going, where it's like we have an expert group, the security badge holders, who kind of have like a lot of influence over how funds are distributed. But then there's some avenue for people who really care to put their own money in the pot and also influence how we distribute our funds. How do you prevent the fund from becoming governed by a small of insiders, right? I assume some of the curators didn't really take part in the distribution because kind of like they are all busy people and so on. So kind of how do you make sure it doesn't get too concentrated? Yeah. So we have a setup here. The Dow Security Fund has the curators at the top.

So the curators are Vitalik, Taylor Monaghan, Jordi Bolina, PC from C-L-911, Alex Vanda Sunday, me and Lanski. from that mode. And so we kind of decide the budget for every round, the scope of every round, and like how the funds will be distributed, right? Like what mechanism we use. But that's all the curators aside.

Other than the curators are also e-security badge holders. And so now we have 200 e-security badge holders. And that allows for a large enough number, I think that a lot of the, what would you call that, the weird conflicts of interest to kind of balance out.

But also, one thing that we did with the badge holders is that we review all of the badge holders work, specifically I do. So we gave everyone an anonymous badge so that the public doesn't know who is doing what. But I actually went through and reviewed all of the badge holders. I know who has the private badges, only me. so I'm the person holding them accountable. And I DMed all the people who donated just to their own project or just to one project. And I was like, this is a warning.

You know, like that is not an expert opinion. That looks like you're doing some self-dealing here. And there wasn't that many. I think in total there was like 10, something like that. Maybe let's talk about who the Dow Security Fund has helped so far. So kind of like how as a project do I become added? for the Dow Security Fund funds. And tell us about the ones funded.

Yeah, so I'll tell you about the past and then we can also go into the future because I think it's going to be very different and very interesting for people. And specifically for you, because I want to talk about EEZ and figure out how we could even make a deal happen here so we can support the security of the Ethereum Economic Zone. I would love that. Yeah. But so in for the last round and what we've done so far is that we actually can go to the Dow.com fund slash transparency. And you can see exactly who we funded so far. At the top of the list is Seal 911 and Seal.

And then Red Guild and then Zach Exbt, Revoke.comcast, rec news, a bunch of seal groups and so on and so forth. L2 beats on there. Block threat, which is a newsletter. We basically had the QF round was a broad security round. And not only did we put in our own 500 eth, we were able to raise 600K from donors and other sponsors. So we were, so far we've actually been able to allocate over 1,000 ether to 135 different security projects. And the main thing, every round will have its own eligibility requirements. So the QF round, it was all about, like, you had to have done something in the past.

It can't be some brand new idea that you're coming up with just to get money out of this round. And you had to have a history of public benefit. Yeah. And that was basically as long as it was security focused. So a lot of projects were education, newsletters, even just Twitter influencers, you know, people who white hats who are doing good work, you know, things like that. even things like L to B. It's a pretty wide net, right? Kind of like, I mean, you could take kind of like the narrow stance and say,

okay, we pay for former verification and we pay for smart contract audits, but it's not just that, right? Kind of like it's much, much more. And I mean, if you look at C-L-911, for instance, I mean, they mostly do incident response. And I mean, they do amazing work. So kind of like we've had to use them before and they are rock stars. But it's kind of, it's, it's, it's,

It's a much broader scope than you might think when you hear the name, right? Yes, absolutely. At least for the first round it was. Now, for future rounds, that's not always going to be the case. So we are looking for like narrow scoped rounds eventually. Maybe this next round. Maybe not. We'll see.

But either way, we are definitely not going to always be so broadly scoped. And we're also not going to be always focused on, you know, the, like the public good side, even. This next round, the alpha for the next round, is really that we are going to do RFPs and grants as like single one-off ideas. So we're working with the community to come up with security initiatives. For example, one of them is eith debugging built into the solidity compiler so that you can have more clearer like debug logs when you have issues. Another one is formal verification of the Viper client. And another one is an opts L2B rating system for OPSEC audits in the community. So you can see which projects are taking OPSEC seriously.

And there can be some accountability in the OSSEC. OPSC space. So like the Opsic one is much more of an RFP where it will be opened and anyone can propose to take part in that and lead that initiative. Whereas the formal verification of the Vipr client, well, the Viper Foundation has already been working on it for a while. Or like, ETH debug and solidity. Obviously, Argot and Walnut are working on that right now. So, you know, those ones are more like grants. And then we're going to work with the ecosystem to try to get these different initiatives funded. Maybe the Dow needs to kick in, and maybe the Dow doesn't even need to kick in. Maybe our team can just find people who want to support these projects, and then they will

actually come in and the money won't even need us, which would be super cool. And they will all be focused initiatives with milestones. And in general, we're trying to put forth that all of them have, like, the last milestone is focused on adoption and usage. And like that is not just build something and hope they come, but actually build something and get users and make some impact for like a large milestone at the end. That sounds wonderful. I think that does really sound like it could move the needle, especially kind of speaking of obsec, because kind of like I know for a fact that that is way too often frighteningly underscoped. Yeah.

And like for the OPSEC one specifically, I've been talking with OPSEC auditors. And what they say is a lot of times they do an OPSEC audit. And then the people who ask them to the audit, maybe they recommend, hey, you need to, you know, for these 10 people, you need to buy them all laptops and have them install crowdstrike,

which is this EDR software that's very invasive, generally against most people's like crypto values, for instance. But like, hey, this is what you need to do to stop, you know, so you know if North Korea has compromised you, right? And then people are like, well, thanks for the obsequit audit, but we're not going to do that. There's no real accountability.

They get the audit, but they don't follow the recommendations. So, well, these guys are recommending them for a reason, you know. And if we had a public accountability, where OPSEC auditors could say, you know, if you fulfill these recommendations, I can give you a good OPSEC rating. Then there would be like a reason for people, for teams to buy everyone the laptop.

Yeah. I mean reason bigger than kind of not potentially losing your funds, right? But kind of like it always seems like it's not going to happen to you. And I mean, good obsec, it always adds hassle, right? kind of, it's not the same kind of like, I mean, even if you've gotten used to signing from a hardware wallet, kind of actually creating the payload and then kind of just copy, pasting it to an air gap machine and then creating the signature and copy and pacing it back. I mean, it's kind of like, it's, it's annoying.

It's really annoying. So I see why people don't do it. know kind of they should. But we also know kind of like we shouldn't eat fast food and we should exercise regularly and kind of like hummus is really good for you and McDonald's is bad for you and kind of probably not drink so much coffee and kind of use sunblock all the time. And we all know this, but we generally are very good at ignoring that when it's convenient, no?

Yes, exactly. exactly Griff, maybe zooming out a bit the Dow hack has been it's been wow, it's been 10 years

right? Yeah. And if you look at how much money crypto still loses through hacks, what do you attribute

this to? Because it seems like this should have gotten easier by now and I understand that kind of like AI and so on and I kind of like

I'd also be super happy to kind of tell you my take on this, but I know you are someone who's thought about this for a really long time. So I'd be curious to hear why we haven't made much more headway and why using Ethereum isn't much safer than it actually is. Well, I think you nailed it on the right word there. safer. You know, I feel like we focus on security so much that we forget about the safety dimension. Don't get me wrong. Like, I love the cyberpunk, like, you own your assets. If you want to click a fishing link, you should be able to click a fishing link, you know, like, I respect that right.

You know, I do. I really do. And I know I say that in jest, but like, you know, I get it. It is, it is valuable to have complete sovereignty over your Web3 experience. But actually, most people, don't want that. I have been, you know, I found a Giveth in 2016 after the Dow was hacked. And the theory of change for Giveth was like, hey, you know, non-I wanted to build something better than governments. And so Jordy and I, and Jordi Belina, who you work with at the Ethereum Economic Zone, when governments fail to provide value that society demands, people start nonprofits. So nonprofits are actually the free market. solution to government. So if we could make nonprofits, if we could tokenize nonprofits, if we could

make Dallas for nonprofits, if we can make nonprofits profitable, we wouldn't need governments, right? And but what does that look like? Well, it looks like me onboarding a lot of nonprofits to Ethereum and trying to get them to use non-custodial tools and do it the cypherpunk way. And what that really looks like in practice is I've seen nonprofits lose money in crypto. in every way you could imagine. And it's horribly tragic and traumatizing. Ethereum is super secure, but it's not safe. You can get fished.

You can have your assets in a smart contract that gets hacked. And it might not even, the smart contract got hacked. Some multi-sig holders got screwed, or maybe they even rugged the protocol. You can buy bad tokens. You can send money to the right address on the wrong chain. You'd be amazed at how many nonprofits do that. There's so many ways to lose your money in crypto. It's kind of like you're driving on a really well-built road,

but there's no lines on the road. It's a two-lane highway, and there's no guardrail on the side of a cliff. You know, that is Ethereum. The road is not going to collapse into the ocean. It's very secure. But I don't want to drive on that road, and I don't recommend other people do,

because it's not safe. And to me, that's the problem. We actually, and the goal of the Dow Security Fund, my personal goal, I should say, it's hard, you know, I'd have to like get the curators to agree to this mandate. But for me, what I'm excited about is making Ethereum safer than the banks. We actually have the tech to be safer than the banks. We can do all the tools that the banks use to keep your funds safe. And to make sure that you never lose access to you.

your funds. I don't have very many friends who've lost money because of some centralized fintech provider. I have basically all of my friends have lost money in crypto one way or another. Like, do you ever remember Deutsche Bank? Like somehow like screwing people and taking their money? Like it's very rare. But the advantage of Ethereum is that we can remove custodial risk. So that one risk parameter doesn't have to be there. The banks can't compete with that. But it's like, it's just by definition, they will always have custodial risk. So we can be safer than banks, but we're not. We're not using the same tools.

I want to be able to onboard nonprofits into some kind of wallet that doesn't feel like it's forever dev mode. You know, I don't want them to be able to click fishing links and have it work. I don't even want them to have to see chains. Thank God for EEZ. You know, get rid of chains for us, will you? And then people can actually use UIs that are smart. You know, whether it's an AI agent,

I really don't care about the technology that's used. But between AI agents, account abstraction, the EEZ, like ZK chains, like ZK bridges, and all this tooling, we can make really amazing things. We still need insurance on things. We still need, like, you know, daily limits time delays. There's so many tools that are sitting there for us to use and we don't apply them.

So yeah, that's my take. We just need to get more serious about making a safe environment for normal people. And then like if that was a priority, we would be there. But we've always had this cypherpunk priority. And that's great. I think it's important that if people want the cypherpunk style, go for it. but we shouldn't force everyone down that route. We should actually give the people what they want, which is safety. But what's your take? Why haven't we gotten there yet? Yeah, it's actually very similar to Hughes.

So kind of if you look at, I've been pissing Ethereum people off with this take, by the way. So disclaimer. I think the crops direction that Ethereum is going on, It's the right direction for Ethereum for sure. So I think if you look at transaction throughput and latency and so on, Ethereum's not going to win on those measures. But where Ethereum really shines is on the censorship resistance piece of it. So kind of like the fact alone that I in my study can run an Ethereum full node.

this is with kind of like extremely minor overhead on a Dap node that's that's crazy to me so kind of if I wanted to run a Solana full note there's no way I could do it there's absolutely no way I could do it so kind of that that censorship resistance right there that comes from a having a extremely diverse validator network, both in terms of jurisdictions and in terms of geographies and in terms of clients they use, and whether they use cloud services or not,

which cloud services they use, kind of like along all of these dimensions. That's crazy. Then look at the bus number of Ethereum, kind of a serious number of people would actually have to, I mean, this is always a little bit macabre, but kind of would actually have to be run over by a bus for Ethereum to actually stop. Kind of like, it's definitely kind of like to be, I mean, to stop right away that it's impossible,

but kind of like even down the line, kind of it would have to be hundreds or thousands of people to kind of to die, to kind of lose the expertise to kind of continue running this network, right? And Ethereum is doubling down on this. So kind of with fossil and inclusionists and so on, we are clamping down on the final pieces where you can't be sure. that you don't, your transaction doesn't get censored. Right. So kind of, I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's a fantastic achievement right there.

My hot take is this is not made for end users. If you are a user, you have, probably shouldn't be on Ethereum. It's too dangerous, kind of to, to kind of, it's too easy to fat finger, to send to the wrong network. It's too easy to be fished or to kind of sign a payload that you, don't really understand. Because who reads ABI? I don't read by code.

So kind of it's too easy. It's too easy to mess up. And then you have no recourse. So kind of whatever you kind of do in real life, typically kind of like you, you, you, when you send funds, you kind of, your bank will call you up and say, oh, Griff, you really mean to send $20,000 to this Nigerian person and you can you can override it you can say oh yeah absolutely this is my friend he's a prince and kind of like he's he's and and then kind of the $20,000 will go to this

person but in in it it doesn't allow you to do it without a second question right and and on ethereum there is no second question right kind of like no one no one you can do whatever you can imagine on Ethereum with a single click. Maybe you shouldn't be able to do that. So kind of like I likened it to kind of open water swimming aficionados. So kind of like 10 years ago, people said, oh, you know, I'm not sure why you go to swimming pools. Kind of like just go to the open water and it's beautiful and kind of like it's better for your health and it's more restorative. It's in its nature and so on.

Now imagine, and people enjoyed it, it was lovely and so on. And now imagine kind of there's a huge shark infestation because so many people went open waters swimming, right? Kind of like there, now we have tons of sharks in the open waters. How crazy would it be for us to say, you know what, it's all good. It's still the same ocean. It's still the same open water swimming. Just go for it.

It's great. Kind of like, and just watch out that you don't get. eaten by a shark. Maybe we should just build something that replicates some of the advantages of open water swimming. So kind of you could build a sea-going boat that has a swimming pool inside of it where kind of the water from the ocean can kind of splash into that swimming pool. But most importantly, it's got grades.

So kind of the sharks can't come in. But it'll still be like swimming in the ocean. kind of like just kind of like a cage bit of the ocean, but still it's much nicer than being in a swimming pool. And I think, and I mean, if, if you're hell bent on it, you can still go swim in the oceans, completely fine, it's up to you. Anyone should have that prerogative, but telling people, telling people, we just come to the open ocean, go, go open water swimming, it's unconscionable because it's so easy to lose. everything. And I mean, I think a lot of people in this ecosystem have lost a healthy relationship

to money. And I don't think they understand what it actually does to people when kind of their life savings go down the drain because it's, and I think, yeah, maybe we need to build kind of these ocean-going swimming pool boats to kind of have people. in and kind of absolve them from going to the fintech pools. And I think maybe that should be, maybe that should be the mission, kind of. And yeah, I mean, if you want to go open water skiing, go for it. It's kind of, I guess, but kind of like know the risks. Yeah.

And if you go open water swimming and there's a bunch of sharks, maybe bring a boat. Maybe don't swim. Maybe bring a boat or something to protect you. like a cage, you know, that keeps you safe. And it sucks to be in a cage, but this is why we can't have nice things. There's sharks in the water, you know? It's sad. But I completely agree, for the most part. Like, I think that we're going to see a lot of innovation, especially with Tradfai coming into the space more seriously, with like saying, like, yeah, don't be dumb. we're not going to let people screw it up, you know?

And building apps that don't let people screw it up is going to be, I think, the way of the future. And I don't know why it's taking us this long. I think I'm a little disappointed about it. It's because it goes counter to the philosophy that we had, right? Kind of like you don't want to constrain people. You want to give them all the options. And if kind of like some of the options are bad, you trust them not to choose them, right? but I think this is also why,

and I think maybe we can dive into this for a little bit, this is also why I think the Ethereum Economic Zone is so immensely powerful. It allows institutions and groups of people and individuals to build zones on top of Ethereum that kind of shares whatever pieces of Ethereum you want to share synchronously, but that doesn't necessarily, I mean, you could have a vanilla one that kind of just lets you interact with everything on Ethereum like you're on Ethereum, but it's cheaper.

But you could also have one that restricts the Souls of Cause in and out you allow from your network. So you say, okay, there's a white list or at least there's a blacklist of things you can't do. And there's a maximum trade size that you can do. And kind of like, kind of like almost like a policy engine where kind of you don't tell the person, well, if you're so so afraid kind of in terms of security, why don't you build a policy engine is all perfectly possible on Ethereum. I mean, it is.

You can build a policy and you can even build it inside of a safe. But people don't do it. It's like telling people, oh, you don't like taking your horse drawn carriage. Why don't you build a car? Because it's freaking hard. It's freaking hard to build a car. Maybe kind of like someone should specialize

in building cars and build cars for people. people. So, yeah. Well, you know, Linia, to their credit, worked with this group, I think they're called Phylax. And they have circuit breakers on there. And they prevented a lot of hacks by setting up policies or invariants that would, you know, stop fissures from being able to make transactions on Linnea. They just like. Yeah, absolutely. So kind of, and I mean, the way that it works is kind of they, they approve your transaction before it's included. Right. So kind of like you, you, you, you, you, send your transaction to them and they see whether there's an obvious exploit. If there's no obvious exploit, they have it included. And obviously, that's fantastic. That's a good solution right

there. And yeah, we ought to have more of those. I know FileX has also been funded by you guys. So, yes, yes. Absolutely. And and, and, you know, and because I'm, I'm really amazed with their work, right? Just building policies straight into the sequencer that can stop hackers. from hacking, right? Like, yeah, that's great. Why is that bad? But, you know, I'm, you know, talking with L2s all the time. I'm like, hey, what if people couldn't move a billion dollars, you know?

Or how about 10 million, you know? If they just can't, like, if they try to move that much money, like, there's a block. They have to break it up into multiple transactions or they can, you know, we can make things a little bit more difficult for the big hacks, right? Maybe, like, is it so bad if it takes a day to move $10 million? Is that really like the end of the world, you know? It also depends on kind of what your scale is, right? Kind of like if, if you're, say, Microsoft and kind of you move hundreds of millions of dollars a day,

kind of maybe your tolerance to losing one or two of these packets kind of like once or twice a year. It's not as bad as if it's kind of like a defy hack that were thousands of people lose their life savings. 100%. 100%. And kind of we actually got a lot of blowback for this for a noses chain with the balancer hack. So kind of what kind of like the balancer hack kind of in November of last year, you already alluded to it. So kind of like 120 million were stolen across. a number of different chains, including noses chain.

And luckily, kind of the hacker focused on other chains first. So it gave us time to coordinate with the validators on noses chain. And what we actually did is we shipped a soft fork. To my knowledge, it was the first time that anyone has actually done this in production. So kind of a soft fork just means you don't change the, past state, but you just collectively agree to not allow transactions to go through that have a certain property. And kind of we didn't allow transactions to go through that touched the account of the funds

of the hacker. So what actually ended up happening is that we did a second fork, this time a heart fork, where kind of we took the funds from the hacker and kind of redistributed them to the people they were taken from. But we did actually get, I mean, we also got a lot of good feedback from people who said it was the right response. And kind of like it was a lot of retail users just using this because NOSUS chain is used for payments.

And it was a lot of NUMIS who didn't. And also kind of like, it was a balance of V2Pour that had been unexploided for many years. Kind of like it was as blue chip as Defi gets. So it wasn't like people who were caught under the fourth BZX hack or something. It's kind of like it wasn't people who kind of aped into something. Yeah. And to me it would have felt unconscionable to not try to do anything. So I mean, you can never guarantee that you can stop everything.

But kind of like if you see, for instance, an old lady. getting beat up in the town square and kind of having her handbag stolen from her. Should you step in if you can? Probably yes. And then if it turns out, they're kind of like, actually the old lady is the villain and she stole the handbag from the supposed robber or something. Kind of like it can all be cleared up kind of in the aftermath, right? So you're not the final arbiter.

But kind of just putting a hole to suspicious transactions, at least for a little I think, yeah, often that can do wonders. Super similar situation with Arbor Trump and the Security Council a couple months ago. And I also got a lot of pushback. We rescued $71 million from North Korea. We stole money from North Korea that they had stolen before and helped kick off the whole DeFi United, $300 million recovery from the Layer Zero hack. And I go to a conference in New York.

and people are like, yeah, you shouldn't have done that, you know? And it's like we took literally $71 million was about to go to North Korea's nuclear program. We were able to stop that and get everyone their money back from this AVE layer zero kelp-dow issue. And yet people are like, no, you know, it's not a cypherpunk. I think, you know what I think the problem is. I think that the problem is that then kind of you have to define a set of conditions under which you intervene, right? Yeah. Because people don't like the slippery slope.

They kind of like, they like clean rules. And kind of obviously now that kind of like we've established, maybe sometimes you should intervene. Now you actually have to, you have to specify on when exactly should you intervene. So kind of should I intervene if you fat finger something and you send something to an address that you probably didn't mean to send it to because kind of you've interacted with the same address on a different network before. So kind of I can assume you just selected the wrong network. I should probably stop this.

Should I stop it if I can surmise that you just fat fingered because kind of like there's only one character off, of like from an address that you have previously used. Yeah, probably I should stop that. Should I stop a transaction when you interact with a known fishing address? Absolutely. Should I say, oh, Griff, this person you're sending funds to, they have previously had problems with kind of their KYC provider or kind of, they didn't pay back friends in the past.

maybe you should reconsider. Probably not, right? So kind of like it's a slippery slope. People don't like slippery slopes. People don't like degrees of different shades of grace. So kind of because it's easier to say I commit to just being hands off because the conversation just stops there. And I think kind of it's, it's, I understand the impulse.

I also don't want to be involved in other people's messes. but kind of it, I think, I think it's a cop-out. 100%. We'll have to do the work of understanding kind of like where to draw the line. And I think also kind of like different zones on Ethereum will choose different lines, right? Kind of like they will say, okay, we comply with German law, we comply with state of Washington law, we comply with Ethiopian law, whatever. matter or kind of we abide by these principles or kind of like then I think that's completely fine but saying okay this is the one size fits all approach and everyone everyone kind of is completely

on their own yeah to me to me that you're choosing a side one way or the other either you choose the hackers or you choose the people like I'm sorry you know it's it's black and white to me any other choice means you're not you're just removing empathy from the equation and i can't really do that that's not that's not where i'm at in life so yeah for me i i i'm very disappointed that for instance there was the second parody multi-sig hack where polka dot had like hundreds of millions of dollars there one simple thing could have given back their money and they didn't we didn't and i think it's fine. Like Ethereum's made that choice. It's crops, right? It's like, like you said, Ethereum is going to be full of sharks. And that's how it is. Like, if you're playing in

Ethereum, know that you're going to get bit once in a while. And that's fine. But then people can build infrastructure off of that. Like you said, you can put a grate in the water, keep the sharks out. You can give everyone a life jacket. You know, you can make a safe environment for people and have a lifeguard watching over. And then you're good. You know, and you can still do it on Ethereum, but going like raw dogging Ethereum is pretty wild. And I wouldn't recommend it for the faint of heart. One more topic I'd love to discuss and that's kind of general ecosystem sentiment because kind of like kind of from where I'm standing, it hasn't been this bad in 10 years. But maybe let's talk about the easy first and then kind of we're

tackle the depressing topic last. Okay. So, you know, I see our approach, the Dow Security Fund's approach to funding Ethereum security is kind of modeled after this concept of Ethereum as an apartment building. Right now,

it seems like every project has their own apartment in the Ethereum apartment building, and they're all focused on securing their own apartment. They have a vault door, they have a dude with a shotgun standing, in front of it, you know, and they're all putting metal in their walls and ceilings and floors and trying to secure, spend a lot of money to secure their own apartment. And then let's say that

some project wants to secure with cameras. And so they install video cameras everywhere and, you know, that's great. But the DAS Security Fund wants to come along and be like, dude, you want to install cameras? How about we save you some money? Let's whatever you were going to spend on cameras, let's cut that in half and put half that money in the pot and let's put cameras in the whole apartment building, you know, and it's not going to cost that much more. And you'll be way safer. You'll have a part, you'll have all the cameras where you want and plus every floor will be covered, every room, everywhere. And really, how much more is it going to cost? The cost of a few more cameras. But all the installation, all the thought

processes, the subscriptions, that can all be, like the economics of scale of security are huge. Like, why don't we have a doorman on the apartment building? You know, why is this janky lock that's on the front door? Like, we can do better. And the Dowell Security Fund wants to kind of come along and be like, hey, why don't you all kick in to this initiative, right? Like the EEZ, I think, there's going to be a lot of interesting security opportunities. Bridge hacks, bridges, this, like, moving interoperability is a huge issue.

So much money is lost. And so much, there's so much, like, safety issues that come along with bridging and moving money from network to network. It's surprisingly risky. And so I feel like there's probably some initiatives that you guys would like to see to improve security around EEC. Of course, you need audits. those sorts of things. But I'm curious, like, are there any, you know, security initiatives that would

make implementing EEZ and bridging in Ethereum way more secure? Like, maybe there's a formal verification of something or like a ZK primitive that needs to be worked on or even, like, how do we add circuit breakers as an option into EEZ? I don't know. I'm really curious, because you're at the front line of this, of the future of Ethereum. interoperability. What security initiatives can you think of that would be useful? Yeah, absolutely. So I think there's a couple. So kind of obviously, kind of audits and former verification of the core smart contracts that would already go a long way and kind of like there's no way we'll launch without multiple audits, of course. The Ethereum Economic Zone,

the way that it works is by having its networks prove it state. whenever they transact with Ethereum of one of the other zones, so that they can do it synchronously, so in the same transaction. There's multiple ways of proving your state, and kind of we require that whenever one zone talks to another, you need to at least provide two different proofs. Okay, so kind of those could be two ZK proving systems that you use. So kind of we, out of the box, we support ZISC and SP1.

But they could also be TE-based or even just multi-six. So kind of that is, and this is something where protocols will start to have, they will actually have to form an opinion of how secure proof is, right? Because kind of technically, we're not enforcing any particular proof, kind of like we want to make it plug and play. but that also means kind of I could use a one out of one multi-sig where kind of I say okay I say this is cool because I say so and obviously that's not a very good proof so kind of just because something is proven in some sense doesn't mean it's true right kind of you have to look at what the proving system actually consists sit off. So you could imagine like a L2B for provers, like some kind of like

we got to look at each proving system and say how secure it is and actually rate it. Absolutely. And I think there is something to be said for mixing and matching proving systems. So I think having for instance a TE-based proving system and a ZK-based proving system actually makes a ton of sense because

if there's something wrong in kind of some of the maths. And I mean, that's not crazy. It's happened before, right? Kind of like if you look at kind of Zcash vulnerabilities, kind of sometimes, I mean, the math is hard, right? So kind of sometimes there's just a bug in there and kind of like you're lucky, no one found it before you. So kind of having a,

having running this kind of like as a mix and match scheme, kind of with, you know, kind of with additive security in terms of kind of like having a sieve and putting it in a sieve and then in another sieve and so on. I think that's probably how we'll recommend people go about this in the future. Yeah, and I think that's that that's the first thing that kind of we can talk about kind of like on the overarching architectural layer. and then every zone can kind of implement things like the phylax like system, for instance, and kind of like having more of those, because if everyone uses phylax, it's also not a good system, right? You don't want to have single points of failure.

You want different systems that you can plug into this. So SafeNet is basically the same idea as well. And kind of we should have many more of these. and they should be customizable. You should be able to say, this is kind of what I'm screening for, and that's the level of risk appetite my users have and so on. So kind of making this, fleshing this out a lot more, because the Ethereum Economic Zone architecture is extremely permissive

in what it allows its zones to do. And I think it's a great benefit, but it's also a challenge because kind of when a design space becomes too big, kind of it gets difficult to explore. And sometimes it's easier to kind of, just default to the default settings. So kind of just coming up with more default settings that people can kind of say, okay, maybe this is the right setting for me.

I think that would be wonderful. You just have to make sure the default settings aren't like the same that layer zero had, right? Like where it's not one DV. One out of one. Yeah, one out of one multi-sig. That takes everything's good. Right?

You have to have strong defaults. But I'm a big fan. of strong defaults. I think that's the, I think that's the right security path for almost every scenario. But I hear you. Let's maybe kind of zoom back out and talk about the ecosystem. So kind of, I mean, we've both been in this space for well over decade. I've never felt the space has kind of, it's never been as depressed as it currently is. What's, what's your take? You feel the same way? Well, yeah, but I guess I'm not like, it's just we're not the coolest tech anymore. You know, before we were always the frontrunners like, this is the coolest new tech.

Look at this, you know. And I think because of the safe, personally, I think it's because of the safety issues. We never really like matured in a way that like people are like, wow, this, we did it. You know, success. Look, everyone's using Ethereum now. You know, we just didn't get there. whereas like everyone I know uses AI. I generally listen to more AI content than crypto content.

And I think that's actually pretty common for most people in crypto right now because we're all huge bleeding edge tech, you know, connoisseurs and just interested in that. And crypto just isn't the bleeding edge. Now the, you know, the ether, you buy ether on the stock market, man, like, you know, you can, you know, Tom Lee is like basically, you know, an ETF guy. He's got 5% of ether and, you know, like Black Rock is built, is talking about how great Ethereum is. Like who, I'm sorry.

Like, how can you be excited about this stuff? This is like the antithesis of why Ethereum was initiated. This is not how any of us expected it to go. Of course it's disappointing. you know and but I don't think that that's that's like a that's a vibe in the end this tech is amazing and I still think that it is going to be an important part of how we restructure society maybe it's a second maybe it's second fiddle to AI could be that could be the way it goes but I don't think it's like going to lose its place and it's just the bare market you know I mean

It's the bare market multiplied by, okay, the bleeding edge tech is elsewhere. So, you know, and that's very disappointing to me. I don't know. What's your take on the state? I feel like there's also a loss of meaning. I think kind of like it's kind of just another facet of what you pointed at. But I think kind of we also liked defining ourselves as an alternative. and now kind of it's being kind of blockchain has been started being used as an efficiency upgrade for Wall Street.

And I think to some extent that just feels galling because kind of the paradigm shift that a lot of us kind of came here for, kind of like the shared ownership and coordination economies and kind of those never really materialized. And I think a backhand upgrade for Wall Street, it's worthwhile. It's just way less. I'm still optimistic, though. Those, like, you know, circles, for instance, is a great economic system. Really interesting, innovative UBI solution that will be there when we need it. I'm still a believer that with this technology, we can build economies around true value of production

that our current system doesn't recognize, for instance, like the value of coordinating around cleaning a river, you know, there's economic value in, for instance, taking care of homelessness. I'm in Seattle right now, and it's incredible how much homelessness there is, right? And you go to downtown Seattle, and there are just these, like, there are people camping in the streets and in parking lots, and guess how much economic value is lost from people frequently restaurants in that area, the land value that goes down, right? Just like economic value alone, not even the sentimental value and the vibes, right? Just pure economic value.

Yeah, and storefronts are empty and kind of like you don't want to be that. Yeah, it's a downward spiral. I still believe that this technology has the power to build economies to address those problems because if you, it would, more value would be created for the landowners. in a downtown area to address the homelessness issue head on, then it would cost to address the homelessness issue. There is a clear, like, you know, opportunity there, and I do believe this is the technology that can do it.

The problem is it's not safe enough for people to use. It's not safe enough for the store owners to actually use it. So why would you build something for them when they can't even use the tech, right? And that's, this is really where, why I'm here, This is why I found myself in the security side of things, trying to make Ethereum safe for normal people to use, because everything I want to do with it, and I think most of the stuff you want to do with it,

and like all of our friends, all the stuff that we want to do with it, we can't do it because it's supposed to affect normal people. It's supposed to help normal people, and normal people can't actually use our tech. They can use AI, you know? They just can't use what we're doing in blockchain. So if we fix that, if we actually make it safe enough for people to use, we can start addressing some of these things.

And, you know, we'll have more bull markets in the future, I'm sure. That is a fantastic note to end on. Griff, if people want to learn more about the Dow Security Fund, where do we send them? Well, you can follow me on Twitter or the Dow on Twitter. I'm Griff Green on Twitter, no space. Also, the Dow is the Dow Fund on Twitter. You can also go to the Dow dot fund, and you can see all the stuff about us. You can connect with us there and, you know, you get on our mailing list and find out about all the opportunities that we're doing.

The big alpha is that we're running for, we're trying to collect security initiatives. So you already came up with, just talking with you about Ethereum Economic Zone, I had like three or four different ideas of like initiatives that we could do to make Ethereum safer. we're going to try to get those things funded. So if you have any security initiatives that you think can really make Ethereum better, reach out to me, please, and let's work through it and let's try to get them funded. I think there's a lot of opportunity here.

We spend too much money on security and we get too little impact back for it. I think we can change that, and hopefully the Dow can help make that happen. Perfect. Thank you so much for being on again, Griff. Thank you for sure.