Epicenter - Learn about Crypto, Blockchain, Ethereum, Bitcoin and Distributed Technologies - Viktor Radchenko: Trust Wallet – Building and Growing the Official Binance Wallet

Episode Date: November 26, 2019

As the crypto ecosystem continues to grow, wallets and exchanges are quickly evolving to differentiate themselves in a crowded marketplace. Viktor Radchenko, CEO and founder of Trust Wallet, joins us this week to talk about why he created a noncustodial wallet solution, what makes Trust Wallet unique, and how the acquisition by Binance has allowed his team to focus on a long term vision. Viktor helps us understand what it means to be part of the Binance Ecosystem, and what he believes the future holds for wallets, key storage and custody. Topics covered in this episode:Victor's bio and how he ended up moving from the Ukraine to the USHow hacking games got Victor into cryptocurrencyWhat Trust Wallet is and its' strengths in the wallet landscapeWhat it means for Trust Wallet to be secure, opensource, decentralized, and anonymousWhat Vicktor believes the future holds for wallets and key storageThe Binance acquisition of Trust WalletTrust Wallet's policy for adding new coins and the criteria they look atEpisode links: Trust WalletTrust Wallet BlogCrypto exchange Binance buys Trust Wallet in first acquisition deal (TechCrunch)7 Essential Steps to Keep Your Crypto Wallet Secure (Trust Wallet Blog)Ethereum Name Service is Now Supported (Trust Wallet Blog)Trust Wallet DEX is growing up, Order book and Trading History added (Trust Wallet Blog)Wallet Core documentationWallet Core on GitHubThis episode is hosted by Sebastien Couture & Friederike Ernst. Show notes and listening options: epicenter.tv/315

This is Epicenter, Episode 315 with guest, Victor Retchenko. Hi, welcome to Epicenter. My name is Sebastian Kuccio. Today our guest is Victor Ritchenko. Victor is the founder and CEO of Trust Wallet. Now, you may have heard of Trust Wallet. You might even also use it because it's a very popular multi-coin wallet for Android and iOS. Trust Wallet has been around for a number of years.

It gained popularity during the ICU boom of 2017. And then it was acquired by Binance in 2018. And it's become the official wallet of the Binance Exchange. And what was really interesting about this interview was Victor's story. So he was brought up in Ukraine and got involved in IT security and effectively pissed off the wrong people, the Ukrainian government. and he had to leave the country in his early 20s and moved to the U.S. to seek asylum. And that's where he is living now. And he is a self-taught hacker and mobile developer and software engineer.

So I thought this was really impressive and I think that it really informs many of the decisions that have gone into building trust wallet and definitely Victor's vision for what the wallet ecosystem should look like. So the library which powers trust wallet, trust core, is entirely open source. He's a big proponent of the decentralized web and ensuring that wallets remain open and compatible with one another. And so this vision is somewhat in contrast to some of the other wallets that we've talked about on the show. And you'll hear us talk about this during the interview. We also went deep on a number of other topics, including the future of the wallet ecosystem,

the appearance of smart contract wallets and different types of key storage like Threshold signature schemes, whether or not we'll see key storage and wallet features unbundle at some point in the future. And one topic, which I think is critical to the future of the ecosystem and specifically adoption, and that is Apple and Google's seeming reluctance to allow wallets to include DAP stores, DAP ecosystems, DAP markets, whatever you want to call them, but the ability for users to very easily have access to and browse different DAPs that they can interact with within their wallet. And so this is something I think we should all be watching very closely because it will very much play into whether or not wallets can leverage existing DAP ecosystems.

I was very fortunate to do this interview with Frederica and with that. here's our conversation with Victor Wichchenko. We're here with Victor Rachchenko. Victor is a CEO and founder of Trust Wallet. Victor, thanks for joining us today. Hey, guys. Nice to be here. Thank you. So tell us a bit about your background and how you got into crypto. Just a long story.

So I would probably split it in two kind of phases before crypto and after crypto. I think my kind of history started when I moved to US initially. So, or no, I'll go back a little bit earlier. So I used to play ping pong for quite a long time. So I was the best in my state. I would go to different championships and we just played ping pong. And then I was doing it for seven or eight years until I was 14. And then I got injured for a different reason because I was doing parkour at the same time.

And so I thought, okay, I think it's the time for me to sit at home now and then learn more about computers. So since then, I would like spend most of my time doing computers. In the beginning, it would usually be all about gaming, hacking different games, and trying to see how you can game the system. And so that's where I got really interested and curious about technology itself. So I was trying to dig into how technology worked. How do you hack? How do you, like, find different ways around it?

And this is where I learned about, you know, this kind of basic things. And then when I was in university, I was doing a few things running my own community of security folks. and at the same time, I found vulnerability at the bank. So I got hired to the bank while I was at the university just because for that reason. Because back then, infrastructure would be like super vulnerable. Yeah, there would be lots of SQL injections on pretty much a new website. That's back in 2010. And yeah, so I was like doing these three things at the same time.

And at some point, I got in trouble with, you know, government for doing like security things. And there was like political reasons as well. And so at that point, I had to leave my country and then go somewhere else. Your country being the Ukraine, right? Exactly. Yeah. Back then I was in Ukraine. It was pretty fun.

I lived there for like almost 18, 20 years. Yeah. And then so I left my country. I moved to U.S. Like, it turns out that I have an opportunity to go to Alaska first. I lived in Alaska for about four months at the fisheries factory. And then moved to Sacramento. That's where I basically found my house.

to live for some time. And I lived there eight months illegally until I got my documents here in US. It was pretty fun times because sometimes you would go in the street and then, you know, police would stop you and start asking questions about your identification. And at that point, I would be illegal, but I had the ID. So I got lucky not to get in trouble with that. But at the same time, I was applying for refugee. So this is how I got my documents here in US. But it was pretty interesting process on how you do that. That's a fascinating story. What kind of security things were you doing when you're working with in your crane? I mean, I know you don't want to go in too much detail, but what can you tell us about the types of things you were up to?

Yeah. So usually there is, I would divide it in three different types of security, right? So there's like white hackers, gray hackers, and black hackers. So usually they're kind of all interconnected because they usually share the knowledge on different things. So whenever you do research about like vulnerabilities and different frameworks, then you, you could be a white hacker, but at the same time you're going to share that with everyone else. So what black hackers would do, they will try to use that information against the developers. So they will try to actually upload their shells into all the frameworks. So this means they get control over all these computers on the internet.

So that's kind of tricky part because you never know who is black, who is, you know, doing black hacking or white. But I think your goal is usually like, how do we improve security overall? because the goal is to find vulnerabilities and then find the ways how we can fix it. Back in 2010, it was like really big situation because it's not about just vulnerabilities on the frameworks itself.

So whenever you go to any website, you can find different sickle injections. But what the worst part was, because all the browsers were so vulnerable, if you're using Windows, then the chances that you will get a virus while going to the website is like 20% or so, because that's how vulnerable it was.

So if five people would go to a website, one of them will get a virus. That's like a really bad situation. And then once you get a virus, you basically get hooked into this network of different computers. So usually hackers would get all your credit card information, any passwords you store in the local storage, whatever. They'll just steal everything you have on the computer. Plus they're going to put different things in the computer. So you'll be part of the botnet, which you'll be participating in DDoS attacks,

and then you would be mining different big points. And then that person wouldn't even know because they just have a virus on it. And then people just run different comments they need. So people are using botnets to do basically leverage the people's computers to do Bitcoin mining back then? It could be anything. So back when I was, it's not yet because it was back in 2010 or so. But I think it came later. I would say people started doing it in probably like 13, 12 or so.

But before that was usually like botnets for those reasons. It depends what kind of a user it is, because if you have really fast computer, then you could be part of the botnet. If not, you would be doing something else. Hackers usually try to think about, try things out of the box, whatever they need to do. They also would run like proxies, VPNs on your computers for their own purposes. And you can sell that too. Yeah. And so were the things you were involved in was it, were you just sort of caught up in something that was seen by the government as nefarious?

or did you have political motivations or anything like that? I mean, it's literally above because if you have some influence, because I was running a community of this, right? So people wanted to get information about the other people. So I'm a privacy person. So whenever they told me to give them information about, you know, people who are like part of my community. I just rejected it.

I didn't want to share any information because it's private. Yeah, and that's when you get in trouble. Okay. And so that's when you fled to the U.S. Okay. So you felt that you were under risk or were you under like were there threats coming your way from the government that led you to flee or how did that happen? Yeah, definitely had some threats from the government. Usually not even the government tells the police, right, but they're part of the garment. So that's where you have communication with. Yeah, but I think it was definitely risky. I did have I got in trouble with them and I just wanted to avoid the situation because I tend to avoid any. anything that's a risk to my life.

No, I think that's generally a good policy, avoiding things that are risk to your life. So you then came to the US and you got a refugee status and now even hold citizenship, right? Yes, that's correct. Yeah, so I was doing the process itself in back to 2011 and then it took me eight months from the beginning to the end. And so once I got my documents, this is the time when I started learning about. coding. So it used to be a security person. I used to research, learn about how technology works. But at that point, I never knew how how do you write code. I think those are like two different

things, even though I know how to write scripts back then. But I didn't know like how do you build software and how do you build software that scales? I think those are two different things. And you usually have seen people in crypto where they know how to write software that kind of works, but it's not a software that could scale. So I think that those are like two different things. to keep me in mind. Yeah, and then since then, I started the company when I was in Sacramento. It's kind of interesting because I live in Sacramento and then I was talking to different people that was around me and most of them were either like mechanics or truck drivers.

I don't know why, but that was it. And so they told me about one problem that something was like super annoying to them and that I heard that problem from all the truck drivers there in Sacramento. They tell me like, oh, it's so hard to find parking. whenever I need to stop, because they have a limit of like 14 hours to drive a day, and then only 11 of those is physically you can drive. So the rest left for the rest and then do the different types of things. And so at that time, I thought like, oh, this is actually interesting.

And I was starting to learn mobile development back in like 2012 now, I guess. Yeah. And then I thought like, oh, it was cool to build an app that allows people to find parking, like specifically for the truck drivers. And this is how the company started without, me even realizing because I wanted to just solve a problem to a specific truck driver and then turns out that there is a bigger problem in space itself. And so we started with like building a small app that allows people not just to find you know, parkings at night, but also find like

truck stops, wait stations and then different type of rest areas. And make it even social. So the social part is actually what made it interesting because other people were able to share information with other folks. So you understand this better. Most of the people who are in trucking, they still used notebooks on paper to write down all the truckstuffs where they usually stay and they will write down all the restaurants that nearby. That was pretty fun. And so whenever I would talk to anyone, they would say, like, wow, this is just amazing. I switched from doing like writing down on the piece of paper now using an app.

And so that's what kind of impressed people and they started using it. And I was doing it for over a year. And then at some point we realized that there is a bigger problem in the market so we can scale into building not just service for logistics to kind of plan your trips, but also into helping companies and truck drivers to find jobs. So what this means, you can connect, you know, both parties, carriers and shippers and allow them to ship different things around the globe, or around the US in this case. And so that's where we started to build this platform, which allows any company come in and say, like, I need to ship this big container from A to B.

and then we will use technology to find the proper driver who can accomplish this job for them. And that was our job. So the goal being to have as few empty passages as possible, right? Yes, correct. So I think if you think about tracking, right, it's all about optimizations. Like how do you make, you know, this trip is the cheapest. And so what many track drivers are doing, they usually go either like full or like half full. so their goal is to optimize and make sure they have as much as they can in the cargo itself yeah

and so they always try to optimize because there's always you know logistical problem because there is always someone who's loading them and so they would get on the call they will try to figure that out like what kind of loads there is because it's all about you need timing then you have distance and you have like different cities that you can go over into and so you always try to optimize like how much time i'm going to spend on this or like picking up or dropping up And so you always try to like fill your cargo as much as you can. Yeah, it's pretty tricky business because I don't even know if there's any technology that allows you to do that yet. Because that needs to be optimized because it's still done through cell phones.

So people just always give a call, try to figure it out like the small details. But in reality, you like fill out this information and then technology tells you like, here you go, here's the most optimal way to get this work done. Yeah, and I mean, basically that's an NP-Hard optimization problem, right? So basically it's really difficult to find the best solution. But finding a better solution than the one that you can find, you know, with a pencil and a pen on a phone is probably fairly trivial. Yeah, it's definitely a big problem in general logistics, as you mentioned.

So, yeah, and then you definitely want to optimize as well for like pricing, how much you get. That's what's important. Yeah. And then most people as well, the way to think about it, right, they only want to drive for like a week or two in states. So you also need to keep that in mind because they want to. be home in like two days. So how do you optimize the route to be there and then, you know, do all those other things on the way? So you have heart constraints and soft constraints and, yeah, it sounds super difficult. So is that project still going? Yeah. So I think the history about this

project is that, so started me myself for about like a year and a half or two. And then at some point, you know, I met with a founder, so with a co-founder of the company. So we started doing things together. So we raised some money around like 20 million. And then at some point, we just, you know, decided that I would need to leave a company because I would be more like on a product site and then some things just didn't work out with me and the founder. So I decided to live the project and do something else. And then the company is still around. We actually sold it to a different company and they still continue doing the project,

but not as active as we were doing it before. Yeah. So I think it's good to have that kind of, you know, checkmark that you previously, you know, sold the company because you always need to get things from A to B and make sure you have some kind of ending to it. And then you always can move to next things to learn and build. Yeah, one thing to mention is that whenever I moved from Ukraine to U.S., so this is where my mind kind of changed from being like doing security into like building things. I think that's where I got interested actually and being passionate about building rather

than destroying or just doing research. And so how did you transition from this into crypto? Yeah, so I did know about crypto probably back in 2013 or 12 even because I used to live in an apartment complex with someone who was showing me how to how does he buy drugs on silk crowd. That was quite interesting. Of course. He would be so passionate about it. But for me, at that point, I didn't really pay attention to details on Bitcoin, but it was just interesting to learn. And so he told me about how he uses, you know, poor to access. this websites and how he buys these things. And then he told me about Bitcoins and he's like, yeah, you definitely want to buy this. Even though I didn't really understand what it is at that

point, he said, like, I spent $14,000 to buy Bitcoin. I was like, you crazy. Like, why would you spend so much? But back then, Bitcoin was like $9. So I'm not sure, probably like 12 or 13. It was interesting to hear someone as crazy as him, because at that point, you just don't understand yet what it is and how technology works. And then it takes like some years and you have realization on what technology was. And then probably a little bit later, in 15, my other friend joined the company, Bread Wallet, or even 14. So he started working on Bitcoin.

So he was kind of the source for me on, like, just crypto itself. So whenever I would like see him, he would explain what crypto is at this point, like what other things they're working on. So it was kind of interesting to learn along the way, since Bread Wallet is still, you know, like one of the major wallets. and he was doing the Android version for quite a long time. So I was learning from him quite a bit. And then at some point he messaged on Facebook.

He's like, oh, guys, there's a thing coming out, Ethereum. He should buy it. I went to Coinbase bought some Ethereum. He was like, okay, cool. And then just forgot about it. So year after, so my friends were going to the DefCon. And so DefCon is the security conference for people who are really interested in security and also hacking.

And so that point they thought like, oh, do you want to go with us? I was like, definitely, like I'm super interesting, as you guys know. And then we went to the conference and at the same time, there was lots of meetups about crypto. And so this is where I learned about crypto. I learned about Monero at that point. And I met with Fluffy Pony. And at that point, I didn't know who he is. So my friend said, like, he's just a big troll and Twitter.

I was like, that's cool. And so I met with him. And then they organized really cool party back at the DefCon. And so I think this is the time when I started learning about crypto. But as well, at this time, this is where I realized I have some Ethereum on my account. And I was like, oh, wow, this is interesting. What can I do with it? And then I went to participate in different ICOs.

And then what I realized is because I'm a mobile developer, for me, using mobile apps, is the most in the way to interact with the technology. And so I couldn't find any apps they can use for my tokens on the mobile device. And I thought, like, yeah, I have this tokens. I need to go to my Ethereum wallet, wait for a time until it, like, loads all the, list of tokens and then I need sometimes to edit information and like put my contract addresses, decimals values. And so those were like super complicated things to do. And so I built something open source in about three weeks. So it was a small app that did only a few things like, you know,

send and receive ether. And then I added support for EOC20. So I think that was the basics I built in about the month and released it to the app store. So I'm really good at like prototyping and actually get things to the end and I just build it an open source, but I actually get it to the market. So that's really important because you definitely want to learn from people and users. And so once I got to the market, I just told all my friends I knew about they do crypto. I told them to download, start using it. And maybe in about like a week, we already had like 200 people and most of them were my friends. So they started using the app and just gave me feedback.

So what they really liked was one feature particularly. I called it automatically tokens. So whenever you load your phone, it will automatically fetch all the tokens that you have on your addresses. So that was like super cool feature because you don't need to ever know about like different tokens, like adding them customly or manually.

So you would just import your wallet and just everything just shows up. And that was kind of impressive for most people when they tried it because they would realize that there is more tokens that they even imagine they have on their wallets. Because there would be lots of air drops, or some other tokens just sits on the wallet.

Yeah, and that's kind of how I got started into learning about crypto, because usually the way I approach problems is that I need to have a problem, and then whenever I have a problem, I could come up with different ideas, solutions, on how to solve it. And then usually there is no ending to it. There's just another problem just next to it. And so you just kind of continue doing it until you find another problem. It's pretty fun.

It's a fun process, I would say. So we talked a little bit about Trust Wallet. So can you sort of describe at a high level, you know, what is Trust Wallet today? And where do you think it's serving the community in a way that perhaps is underserved today? Like what is what is its particular strength? Yeah. So I would say like the way like TrustWold was designed in the beginning, it was like open source. And so my goal was to like how do we build technology that's.

easily scalable to different blockchains, to different technologies, protocols, and standards. And so what currently trust wallet is, is a wallet to access decentralized world. That's kind of how we describe it. What I've been by that is the access to, first, you know, having access to your own private key. So I think that's really important because you own your destiny by owning your private key. Second, you have access to digital assets. And it's really important to have really good coverage of digital assets because

technology-wise, they're hard to support because there is lots of work involved into writing code for crypto. And so that's what Trust does well. We have support for over like 30 different blockchains and different types of tokens. And this part is open source. So we have a library that we built for anyone to use. It's called Wallet Core that has a standard for implementing any of the coins. So if you want to add your own coin, you just come and just follow the standard that we already described. And then the second is like, how do we give access to?

you know, different and decentralized applications, staking, borrowing money, like, how do we build all the infrastructure to make it accessible to everyone? And at the same time, keeping security and running everything on your phone, because phones currently consider it to be one of the most secure devices itself because they're using, like, secure enclave. And then their operation system designed to be secure by itself, because every app that you run on your phone already sandboxed. So you don't need to care as much about, like, some things. It just makes security much better for the end user. And so based on those kind of descriptions, that's what are we doing currently trust wallet is that trying to build this like infrastructure

that's available for anyone to build. Even though we don't open source the mobile apps itself, the UI parts, but we do open source everything else that will need your attention in terms of a gene security audit. So if you want to security audit the code, it's all available in the GitHub, everything regarding like transaction signing, you know, mnemonic generation, all of that is there. Right. So you've open sourced the, essentially the library, which I think is called trust core. Yeah, wallet core, correct.

Wallet core, right. So, yeah, we'll link to that in the show notes. How many users do you currently have? And can you say how much value is stored in instances of the trust wallet? So we don't track any of the kind of information that we, We recently just added support for doing CrashLytics, which was a big pain in the ass because we couldn't actually track what crashes happen in the mobile app. So we had to install some analytical tools to see what crashes are happening and where they're happening. And so we just recently started getting the data in terms of how many people actually use Tross Wallet.

And the thing, it's around like 400,000 monthly active users or something around that. And then, you know, the information is not secret. I'm happy to share anything we'll learn from just building trust wallet. But that's kind of what the numbers are. And I don't think they're growing as much, like, in terms of the growth itself since, you know, 2017. I think what happened back 2017, we're able to get to like 150,000 month active users, just providing ERC20 wallet. And that happened pretty quickly because there was a big need in terms of just, you know,

participating in token sales. But now what I see is mostly people who are staying in the app, they actually use it quite actively every day pretty much. Because it used to be the time when people just participated in token sales and then they kind of gone now. I don't see them often. It's probably like 10% of people who actually left. And so now what we see, what kind of activity we see is the people who are actually actively using for their own purposes. And there is like so much to explore in terms of different applications that already built. I think that's kind of what the current status is in terms of like data and users.

So on your website, you say that the trust wallet is secure, open source, decentralized, and anonymous. Can you describe what you mean by, you know, what, what do those different adjectives mean to you and what stands behind those things? Yeah, so if I talk about decentralized, right, so I think the one important topic to bring is like, okay, you don't be a private key. But the second question is, do you follow standards? Because if you don't follow standards, then whenever something happened to your app, then the question is, like, can you restore this on some other application? So if you don't do that, then, you know, you're not so decentralized because you can break some things and people not are available to restore their wallets on some other devices. So what I mean by that is that, like, you own everything pretty much. And then you have access to those applications that also decentralized, you know.

Things like, you know, smart contracts, they're not going to go away. So you can easily interact with them in decentralized manner. So that's what it means. Security-wise, I think security is about lots of different things that could happen, right? So it's all about, like, do you open source your code that does all the, like, magic with crypto? Second, do you have all the tools on the phone itself? Are you using correct? Like, are using secure enclave?

I use keychain. Do you store all the data securely? Do you allow people to set, like, pass code to make sure no one can just, you know, get into the app. So I think security is all about like those small details that allows you to sleep well at night and not to worry about someone, you know, getting in trouble. Yeah, so the anonymity aspect is that we don't really collect any information about the users. So we don't collect their addresses, any of that information. Neither we know who they are. So most of the other, like centralized wallets, they would usually collect information about their like, you know, first

name, last name, emails and different type of information. But we'd try to stay on the side of where we don't know the user and we're just building a product for them. And so that's what kind of decentralized markets will do is that you don't really know who that person that interacted with you, but you know it did. So I think that's kind of how we need to design our systems

is that to be on the side where users control the data. They don't expose unless they wanted to. So I'd like to stay on one of the aspects you mentioned. So you talked about decentralization and the importance for users to be able to take their seeds,

and import it into other wallets that would adhere to the same standards. And so this is a topic that different wallets have different approaches when it comes to this. So, you know, a couple of weeks ago, we had the CEO of Zengo, Oriolo, Ohio, on the show. And, you know, they're building a very different type of wallet. They're leveraging threshold signatures in order to secure users' private keys. and his point of view is that the wallets will create their own ecosystems. And that in the future, because of the layers of complexity that are built on top of wallet applications, it will become harder and harder to ensure compatibility between wallets.

So in your view, this is something, I guess, that's quite important, this ability for wallets to remain compatible. How do you see this going in the future? Do you see a future where wallets are their own sort of wild garden ecosystems, or where all the wallets are compatible, or is there some other scenario that I'm missing here? Yeah, I think it's a tricker question to answer, but in general, being compatible is a big thing in technology, right?

So if you want to make technology work well, you want to make it compatible. I don't think it's a bad thing to actually explore TSS part. I think TSS technology is actually proven to be really good, and I think it's good that Zengo is doing it. I don't think it needs to be compatible from the beginning. It could be compatible in the future. in general because yeah you're not going to have the same like 12 words in general to like import into a tss or anything like that but what's really important is to always try new ideas

you never know whichever will work so if you think like oh yeah we need to stay compatible with 12 words then threshold signatures would never happen so that's why like we definitely want to try that and see if it works and then if you think about the wallets you know even 12 words will disappear I think if you think about technology that's not really intuitive for the end you user and it's going to be all abstracted away and then all you would need to do either like use your biometrics or some type of data to log in into your wallet. And then this is going to be all stored into your iClouds where everything authenticated with your own data. So in general, like the onboarding part or the security of your own private queue will be abstracted away for the users.

So which is quite nice because, you know, less work for you to do. But the second part is other wallets will become, you know, close communities. That also depends. or on how your company is run. So if you have investors, then you got in trouble. So you're going to have lots of investors who will be pushing you into creating this closed ecosystem because if you don't, then people could easily leave to other apps. So you always need to catch up

and make sure you stay on the top of the product. I think it's a different use case for TrustWalt because we currently part of the Binance, so we don't have that incentive to kind of make money. And our goal is just to amplify crypto adoption. And so by that, that's the reason why we like open source lots of things and we build them as modules because we do want to people to create lots of walls on top of it. And there is already like hundreds of walls being

created just using the library itself. And so that's kind of where we're trying to be really good at, not just help ourselves, but then the second part is like the ecosystems. So if you think that you have investors, right, like the best thing you would do, you probably want to create this ecosystem that's probably closed because people are not going to leave other products easily. So they will always stay with the product. And then on top of it, you can hook up with different services that will allow people to buy, sell crypto exchange. And the more people stay with your product, the more profits you will have at the same time. Because wallets would be the interface to access different decentralized applications. And this is where any wallet is able to monetize. Because if you're

the front end for buying crypto, you can charge small fees. If you allow people to exchange crypto, then you can also, you know, make small fees. And that's what exchanges are doing. And that's what exchanges are I think if you want to build successful business, you want to do exchange. That's kind of what the current state is, because otherwise it's really difficult to find any business model that works. Wow, this is super interesting, and there's a lot to unpack here. I really want to get back to the Binance ecosystem in just a bit. Beforehand, though, can we talk for a little bit about smart contract wallets and how you see

them? Yeah, I think in general, smart contract wallets, actually good technology, but there's limited to it, it's definitely good that you have different customization features. You can customize your daily spending limits. You can add different guardians who has access to your wallet itself. It's definitely a good future set. I think there's also limitations to, so there's like a features, right? And there is a bunch of them that you can set because it's all programmable. So if you can program your smart wallet, that's actually pretty cool. And then there's a problem with like being compatible, which is fine. I think being not compatible is okay. But, you know,

you try in different technology. It's not possible just to connect it together in a way. But there is a limit to how many different currencies you can support. So it's not easy to support both Ethereum and Bitcoin at the same time. So you definitely want to choose whichever you want to support. But I do think that there's going to be a couple of winners in the end. You know, there's going to be a couple of platforms that kind of have lots of volume and usage. So it maybe makes sense just to focus on one, try to polish the experience.

And maybe in the future, you can even change. your product that would be a smart, a smart wallet for one blockchain, but it would be not that smart on like a Bitcoin, for example. So you can always, you know, customize because, you know, some of things could be encapsulated or abstracted away from the user to make it, like, look simple. So on the background, you could run, you know, the smarter wallet functionality, but in the front end, the UI itself, it would be just simple as using any other app. So you definitely want to try it out and see which one will work. But, you know, there is a couple of wallets. It's Gnostic's wallet, Argent, there's the guys who are doing smart contract wallets. I'll definitely look and talk to

them and see what they're building, just going to get a touch, just get a sense of like what's out there. Yeah, but in the end, it's all about like who's going to build a better product. And you never know what things will work well until you actually try and ship it to the whole world. So I'm curious what you think is sort of the future of wallets and key storage. Like at the moment, these things are mostly in most applications, I guess, sort of bundled. You have your key storage system, whether that's 12 words or TSS or any other like hardware wallet or whatever, right? There's some form of key storage solution there, smart contract wallets also. And then there's all these service layers built on top.

So simply storing coins is one service. then you have things like Defi applications, then you might have things like a Dex built into it, social recovery, and these sorts of things. So these are all like feature sets built on top of key storage. What do you think the future looks like?

Do you think that perhaps these different layers will be unbundled from unique applications or will they continue to exist as like a vertical within one app? Yeah, totally. I think if you look at any kind of market what happened before. So usually what happens, any company, what they will try to do, they will try to build the product first. So that's kind of how you always want to think about, like, let's build product first, and then how we can help developers afterwards. And so I think we're at the point where we build the product, the base, and then what we feel would be really useful to build now is how do we expose the interface for people to interact with TrustWLWLWL easily?

And that's what mini-wolds will do at the same time in the next couple of years is that how do you expose your, methods for anyone to use the app itself. And so that's where we see, you know, lots of usage will happen on the deep linking side. So if you can imagine this as more like a Facebook SDK type of thing, where you just say, like, I want to log in with a wallet. And then you don't really worry like which wallet it is because the way it will work, it will just identify which wallet is installed. I will try to open the wallet, sign transaction, and then you just get back to your app.

So I think all those apps will be definitely unbundled. But to be honest, there is nothing to unbundle yet. All the mobile apps, they're just so limited. There's only a few apps that have been built. So what I feel that should happen is that we need to definitely unbundle that part. And we need to build the easy interface for anyone who's like mobile developer to come in and say, like, you want to build a defy app, here's how you do it. And then you don't need to worry about the key management because the wallet will handle it for you.

As a developer, it makes it easy for you because managing private keys is like super hard. And so what they were going to focus is building a product itself and utilizing the SDK to sign transactions. And so I think there's going to be also some time until, you know, these SDGs will come on the application layer and maybe even a couple of years later, we will see this happening on the operational system level as well. So then even Samsung already doing it for Android. So now you will be able to access your wallet on the OS level itself. So you don't need to even have wallets installed. they just be utilizing the secure enclave from Samsung itself easily.

And I think that's the proper way to do it itself, because you want to unbundle that as much as you can, so you build those building blocks for any developer to come in and easily build kind of integrations. Because if I wanted to build a DeFi app at the moment, then I would need to build all this things that you mentioned, like a wallet and your security building and all of that. It's just too complicated.

And most people don't have enough resources to even explore those ideas. Yeah, I think I agree there. I feel like in the future, increasingly key storage and key security will be unbundled from all the defy applications that exist. And then I guess the wallet space will become more of a service layer where you download an app and then that app connects to different key storage solutions that you might have key stored on. And then from these apps, you can interact with defy services. and it's kind of like banking services layer, I guess, on top of key storage. And key storage is just another layer on top of that. And like there are different players operating at these different layers.

Frédica, you guys, at Nosis, you know, have built a smart contract wallet. I wonder what your thoughts are on this idea of unbundling and if this is something that you think about. We most certainly do. So we do actually see the wallet as kind of an entrance way to the ecosystem, kind of like the browser was, you know, in the early Internet. days just with an inbuilt payment channel. And that's currently what's missing in, you know, traditional web tool browsers. And I'd very much like to speak also about the finance and the ecosystem. So Defi is very much the hot topic du jour at the moment.

And everyone's talking about DAPs and everyone seems to be trying to build some kind of DAP marketplace. But there is one barrier that many in the ecosystem, are pointing to, and that is that Apple and Google are not very receptive to having DAP marketplaces in their app stores, in Wallet apps. I'm curious if you could share your insights, because Trust Wallet does have a DAP browser, but at least when I tried it on my iPhone, nothing comes up. So I'm on Android, and for me it works perfectly. So I think this is this is an Apple problem? Okay. So yeah, describe, describe. Describe

describe your experience working with the different mobile platforms? Yeah, that's definitely an issue for us. Since I'm like iOS developer as well, so I'm really into just upstore ecosystem itself. I think if you look at Apple itself, they being always pretty strict about like the rules, what's allowed, what's not. And then there's a few things to mention

that's not usually even covered by Apple publicly. But one important thing is Apple, they want to have a business model that works them. And then what happens right now is all those mobile apps are being released, they kind of against the business model for Apple. Okay, so a trust hold, we had two issues with Apple for the past the years. So first issue was back in 2018 regarding collectibles. And so the main problem was that Cryptokites were listed inside the app and they were like mentioned somewhere in the code. So Apple found that and they said like, no, you're not allowed to mention anything about collectibles.

neither you want to show any suggestions to the user itself, like where to find them, how to, you know, just get access to them. So that was the first problem. The second problem, what happened is, you know, in 2018, early this year, well, we were informed that that browser is not something that Apple likes. And so I think what they were really against from is not giving access to daps. So we used to have a list of different DAP application that user can just press and explore. And so that's kind of against the business model for Apple because whenever you list those apps, user can go and buy collectibles.

And so this is where Apple would want to have 30% cut, which doesn't happen with crypto because there is no way to even charge this. Neither most dev developers willing to pay for that percent. And so that's where the problem comes in. And then even communication about this problem is pretty tough. So whenever you try to reach out to Apple, sometimes you want to get response within a week.

So sometimes there would be pretty pretty pretty, proactive. So whenever we have any issues, we usually try to contact them via the phone. And it's probably the most effective way because you can just ask direct questions and discuss anything you want. And so I have a person at least at Apple now where I can call up and just ask questions regarding problems we have. And they would be pretty explicit on what they want from you. So they would be explicit that, you know, giving access to DAPS is against their business model. So, and I totally understand that because, you know, you definitely have that problem. But at the same time, it's at this moment it's small. What they want to avoid is having this problem to grow.

Because if they're not going to stop now, it will be, it will come up much later and they will have bigger consequences. So that's why Apple is trying to be pretty strict on this, trying to like cut down on any potential threat in the future. But do you think that at some point, if DAPs, you know, gained some significant attraction, do you think that they'll need to change the policies? I mean, if you think back to, you know, three, four, five years ago, yeah, probably about five or six years ago, cryptocurrency wallets were not permitted in the Apple App Store. And you needed to have an Android phone if you wanted to use cryptocurrency. And then after some time Apple opened up and now you can,

you know, now there are cryptocurrency wallets in the Apple App Store. Do you think there will be some shift at some point? What would need for that to happen? Yeah, there will be definitely some shifts, I think what will need to happen is the adoption, right? Is the user demand. If user demands something, Apple will find ways how to make it work. And so, yeah, it definitely, like, they might come up with some ways and say, like, yeah, you would need to pay, like, you know, some cuts from doing payments or, you know, paying for digital content. So what Apple is okay with is payments. They feel that payments, it's not something they're willing to charge, like, percentage on because it's not easy controllable itself. But what they don't want to happen is the digital content to be,

sold without them, you know, getting the percentage. I think that's what the issue is. But at the same time, if any technology will get adoption, you know, there's always going to be some business models built on top of it. And so that's what Apple is pretty good at. So there's one thing to mention, which is how Apple kind of look at different apps at different regions, which is not really fair, in my opinion, because they have lots of leverage in some countries, but not the other. So here's one example that actually got what it is. So, okay, Apple doesn't have much leverage in China because there is not many people using an iPhone. And in order to make it work, you need to have, you know, lots of iPhones being deployed in China. And the reason how you can get that adopted

if you have VChat installed in the app store, or you have VChat installed in iPhones itself. And so what happens? VChat wants to have access to different mini applications that they run inside, but Apple says, no, we are not allowed to do that. And so what happens in the end, Apple doesn't have a choice as not just to let them list those apps because otherwise, no one is going to buy iPhone in China. That's kind of what it is. And then if Vechat is not installed an iPhone, it's pretty useless in China. And so for that reason, Apple has different rules for China companies.

So if you go to like I'm token, you would be still able to use DAPs and then other services that's not allowed in, like for example, trust wallet. And so this is kind of the market where it's changes on territories. So Apple is okay with that as long as they have leverage to some things. So it's a very tricky question, but it's definitely not clear in terms of guidelines for Apple because for some apps they would say one thing for the other app different things. So it's kind of tricky to find the balance where what's a lot, what's not? Because it's not very well defined in their guidelines.

And do they say this is for the purpose of quality control? So do they say basically things that are offered in the app store you'd expect to be of reasonable quality and not to be malware? So basically if you create an app store within the app store, we have no control over what you let users installed through your app. Is that the official line? Yes, that's the official line. And I tend to agree with this. Based on conversations with them, it sounds like, yes, they're okay with you listing different applications inside your application. But one thing to keep in mind, whatever you submit application, you would need to

list all the applications that you already have there, and you need to provide their Apple developers ID. So as long as you provide that information, they would be able to review and make sure those applications meet their standards. So in this case, because there is so many VAPs and they listed on different kind of domains, and then there's a way for you to submit list of those applications, because there's just so many and you don't even know who running those. And that's kind of the point of crypto. You don't really know who runs the website. Yeah, for sure. So how did you get around the case of the non-tangible tokens? Because I know that trust wallet supports ELC 721 as well as 1155, right? Yes, correct. So I think at this point, because they're not publicly accessible

until you see one, so Apple, okay with that, because you need to find somebody who's going to send it to you or there is a way to buy it. So that's why they were trying to cut down on usage of DAPS, because if you don't know how to use DAPs, then you don't know how to buy collectibles. So that's pretty easy for them. So in this case, they kind of limited for you to access them. Cool. So let's segue into another topic.

So you were acquired or trust what it was acquired in 2018 by Binance. Can you tell us how that came about? Yeah. So it was pretty interesting. because, you know, I started Trust wallet back in 2017 September. So that's when I started writing first line of code. And then around March or February, I decided to go full time. So I wasn't doing full time for about like six months or so.

And the reason why I had to switch full time because there was so much demand for, you know, different product features and just support. So I had to like switch my time to it. And then at that point, I started thinking like, all right, so we need to raise some money because, you know, I have like a team of two, three people now. So we need to definitely stay afloat somehow and then find a way how we can monetize ourselves in the future. Because wallets itself don't have really good business model from the beginning unless they have lots of users. So you can think of it as like Chrome browser, right, which doesn't have a business model.

But at the same time, it kind of fits other purpose in the ecosystem. It just provides good access to the internet. So the same thing is here is that we want to build that kind of interface to the blockchain itself. And so I started raising money. So we went to first into the route of raising money. for the token sale. So we wrote something about trust platform, which is a platform which allows people to access different applications with different, you know, token economics and other things. So I was able to raise money for that. And then at some point, you know, I started talking to

Binance and they been mentioning about like, you know, just investing money into the company itself, not the token because I was going for the token because it's usually easier to raise money that way. And then while talking to Binance, I realized that how powerful the company is in terms of what they were able to achieve and just assure them all in time. And then they're also profitable, which makes it easier for a company to stay and grow because if you have money, you can always reinvest them into technology and just grow business itself. And it was pretty difficult for me to kind of work on different problems. You know, I'm not a big fan of like running HR doing business side, all of those in a company that could happen. So for me, I'm all about the product. Like, that's kind of my passion.

And I don't want to do or deal with anything else. And so we're talking to Binance. And then, you know, I went to Metzzy. So once I met CZ, I think the deal basically got closed because I realized, you know, how good the person is. Like, he's really like open person. He, like, really passionate about crypto. And what I realized is that I would want to have such a leader working with me to actually make things happen. And since that, I decided that we need to join finance and just kind of keep moving forward in terms of development for crypto.

And it's good because we have a single focus to kind of like focus on different life finance and just build a wallet that allows you to access different financial tools on top of it. So it kind of worked out for both of us because now Binance has, you know, something to offer for their users in terms of decentralized access. And then you can also store money on Binance if you want to, but you also have your own way of doing it. So it's good to have the ecosystem, but at the same time it's not limited because anyone could use the app itself. On your website, you say that you have a deep integration with Binance infrastructure. What exactly does that mean? Yeah, so we do have lots of integrations in. the app itself. So one of the things we wanted to give access is to decentralized, you know,

Dexas. So we currently support two providers. One of them is Kiber Network that allows you to swap any ERC20 token pretty much. So that kind of makes it easy to swap all the tokens that you got into like token sales. But at the same time, we provide like fully fledged exchange for Binance stacks. So you can think of Khyber as a swap from one token to another, but for the Binance stacks itself, you have all the functionality to do orders. So you can think of Khyber as a swap from one token to another. So you have order book, you see details about like all the incoming order books. So it's kind of nice because this is kind of the beginning of building all this decentralized exchanges.

And I believe there is going to be way more in a couple of years. And I'm really looking forward into other companies building them. So we would be really happy to support like XRex or any other protocols that would be out there. Because as long as they provide good technology for us to integrate, would be happy to support all of that. Because we already have the interfaces. We already have like architecture built in to support multiple providers. What do you think the future of custody and self-custody looks like? I mean, basically with Binance being a big exchange and a custodian of other people's assets

and trust wallet being the non-custodial little brother, so to say, how do you see that evolving in the future? Like my vision on this is that we kind of, I think technology is trying to compete with with each other, right, in terms of how easy to use and how secure they are. So it's competition between custodial and non-custodial. And I feel like the custodial solution is still better for the end user because they're much easier to use. They're cheaper usually.

And then you don't really need to worry about anything because the company will take care of it for you. But then on the other side, non-custodial is definitely a better option if you think in terms of security, but it's not for everyone. I think the technology is not there to basically state that it's so secure. that you're not going to lose your keys, you're not going to lose your funds, you're not going to get, like, hacked or anything like that. So I don't think we can claim that for non-custodial because it's not as good to claim that. But what we should happen is that we need to definitely

improve technology on non-custodial side where from like, you know, there's a different type of wallets as well as that like, what if this is a harder wallet? Like, how do you make sure you never forget your recovery phase? Because if you had it written down somewhere in your table and then, you know, your ledger or treasurer is gone, and then the phrase itself gone too. So, like, what do you do, right? So it's actually the issue of the user itself, but how do you protect to that? Like, how do you build those social recoverers right into the harder wallet? And how do you build that right into the software wallets?

So I think the challenge still on the technology side rather than, you know, something else. So I feel that we just need to improve that part of technology to make it easier for the user to use it. And then there is definitely benefits to that. So how are you intending to improve that? And basically, what's the roadmap like for TrustWallet? Yeah, so I think we would like to improve that on using the current technology in terms of like using different secure enclaves. So what do we feel that other companies should build like Apple and Samsung is to have, you know, easy access to secure enclave information and then also social recovery build-in. Because on the other hand, TrustWold doesn't have to be a key store for all your private keys.

I think what would be a better option is to be the interface to all the crypto instead. So basically that's our mission to just allow easy access to the crypto services like digitalized finance. And so all the part regarding the keychain side, it could be done by the OS level itself at some point. But because it's not done yet, we need to build our own technology for it. But I think this will switch over as we discussed, maybe like in a couple of years. But that's where we would like to be on is that like how do we build that easy access and not worry about like the keys itself. anything that will happen that we'll try to improve that, we'll definitely adapt. But what we can do right now, we can build better technology in terms of like stirring your

keys encrypted somewhere on your ICloud account that allows you to always like export those keys. Those kind of things we can utilize and those solutions could work on other platforms as well. So it's possible to do that on Android. So we'll just try to build those integrations and see which one work well. You can also utilize different biometrics to use that to encrypt information. It's not allowed to do by default itself, so you need to use some third-party SDKs that allows you to do face recognition. That's what Zengo is using currently. But I think those are cool ideas to try, and you definitely want to have a kind of decentralized way of growing technology where every wallet have their own way of like doing technology,

so then we can learn from each other and see which things work, which not. Do you think that storing seed phrases to the ICloud account is a good solution for most people because basically if you look at the passwords of the typical iCloud users they're often super weak right so basically do you think people have enough of a sensitivity to the issue that if they lose that key or if they lose their seat phrase they lose access to the money yeah i mean it's a tricky question because you always need to kind of pay attention to like how much you're storing and so if you're storing large amounts of money you definitely want to go like hardware wallet to make it secure.

But I think most software wallets will be made for simple security. Most people currently on Earth would probably have less than $1,000 that they own. So in this case, it might actually work for most people to just have encrypted version of the password.

And you can also enforce how strong you want the password to be. So if you enforce really strong password, then it will be encrypted that no one can even decrypted easily. Plus, they need to also get access to their Apple account. This is all like layers of security, right?

So you might have a strong password on your Apple account, but you might use like a password manager that has a weak password. So like one has to secure basically every layer of security so that like whatever key is being. And then you know, you might have a simple, something as simple as like one's computer being compromised. Where they, anyone can have access to that. So like I feel like there's different layers of security here, which for most people is too complex.

to even comprehend where the weaknesses are in their sort of personal app sec. Yeah, exactly. And also if you look at the bigger picture as well as that those are the things that should be coming from the providers itself. So Apple needs to put better security probably on those accounts. Because if you think about the wallet, right, so you can enforce some of the things. But if the platform itself is broken, it would be hard to build any applications on top of it. So Apple is pretty good at keeping security of the app.

accounts, even though like there is some, you know, weak passwords could be done, but at the same time, they try to avoid those situations. But it's a tricky question because most people still all store like their recovery phrases in one password. So one, like if you get access to one password, then you get access not just to like your receipt phrase, but also a hundred other accounts that's out there that you can utilize. So it's definitely lots of weak points. I think an interesting business opportunity for a company like Apple would be to provide some form of key storage solution or even like the ability for someone to generate like a TSS share and then have Apple generate the other one and maybe you have like a third one as a backup somewhere but sort of like a Bickgo situation but where you know you're leveraging TSS and and Apple as a trusted source, like as a trusted third party holding part of that share.

And then wallet developers could basically say, okay, we're leveraging the Apple TSS SDK and building our wallet or whatever infrastructure on top of that. Yeah, I think that's definitely something that should happen. I don't think it will be happening from Apple anytime soon, like not in the next couple of years, unfortunately. Yeah, of course. But what would be interesting to see how Samsung will do it?

because Samsung is one of the biggest players in Android space. And if they do it, and then Apple would basically think about how we actually catch up down. So I think it's all about this kind of game where if something works, then other companies will come as well, and they will change their minds. Even though Apple said they're not interested in crypto, it doesn't mean they're not going to come to the market. So if there's going to be lots of demand and we're going to build enough technology to get to the point where we kind of cross the Chasm and then now it's the time to adapt it because you don't have an option, people who's going to be buying Android. Right. So trust wallet has, is kind of unique in that it supports many, many tokens.

And it seems like you're adding new tokens all the time. And like if you, you know, if one follows your blog, there's always new features being added to the, to the wallet. Why are you taking this approach and what do you think the future of interrobability looks like? Yeah. Regarding tokens, I think we try to add as many tokens as we can because every of those tokens the community. So this is the community of people who would like to have support. And I definitely think that it's needed. Sometimes in order to test out technology, you actually need to have it

in your hands. So I think in the end, there's going to be like a few winners most likely who will be like running like there would be like one central kind of blockchain that handles everything. There's lots of different applications, different blockchains inside of it. And so it's going to be like pretty massive thing. But at the moment, we're just trying to like expand support for different, you know, crypto usages. Yeah, that's kind of where we're going into that. How much is that strategy is directed by Binance? You know, Binance also supports many, many tokens in their exchange and their decks, but also, you know, some people have sort of criticized them for you're taking money to list those tokens. How much of that strategy

is coming from Binance and do you take money for supporting tokens on trust wallet? We don't ask for any money. It's actually pretty clear. So we have our own website, Google, Developers.com. We state exactly what's required to get listed on trust wallet. I think the rules are pretty simple. You've got to be on top 50 in coin market cap. The reason why we have this rule is because if we don't set this, then it makes it hard

for us to add lots of points that's like super small. And it makes it hard for us to manage their like nodes and running infrastructure for them. And the usage would be super small. And so we just will spend too much time managing our own resources. That's the reason we try to set that bar higher than other companies. But besides that, it's all free to integrate. And then you can see exactly all the integrations on GitHub. So it's pretty clear.

All the companies that did integrations the past like three months, it's probably like five different companies. They created pull requests. They followed all the guidelines and then just gets integrated. So they're doing their own integration essentially. and you're just adding them in. Exactly. So it's not even us adding, because what we try to do, we try to just guide them and also do

code of you and make sure like everything is good and secure. But besides that, we just let other companies to do it because they know their technology much better than us. What turns out to be is that whenever we want to integrate a new coin, it just takes more time for us to learn how every detail works and then we'll just spend more time doing integration instead of companies coming in and then, you know, doing everything themselves. Okay, top 50 in the coin market capital, are there any criteria for determining, you know, if these coins are scams or if, you know, is there anything like that?

Yeah, so there's a little bit more criteria, but usually if you're in top 30, 50, usually kind of fall automatically. So one of them is make sure you have really good documentation, because without documentation, we won't be able to kind of review code, make sure everything's good. We need to have stable access to all the notes because nodes running is super hard. So you always want to have nodes to test and then have some backups. You want to make sure that team is good. We would always kind of do some background check and make sure the team who is running it is fine. Yeah, that's probably would be our, like, the priorities. But in general, we're just trying to see which one has the most usage. If there is people,

you know, we would definitely integrate it even if it doesn't follow those like rules that we mentioned. So are you running any of these notes or those projects are running nodes? Yeah, so currently we try to ask for those companies to run notes for us. By the same time, yeah, we just run most of the notes ourselves. Yeah, we do have them as a backups as well just to make sure if there's always a fallback. Okay. This carries quite a cost, I presume. Does Trustwell intend to make any money?

Or is this just a service that finance feels it needs to have in order to maintain its ecosystem and is carrying that cost? Yeah, I think for the wallace is just difficult. to have a business model in the beginning. You can have a business model, but I don't think you will have big growth. It's hard to kind of balance both. But I think for us, right now the focus is like, how do we build more technology

and then just make it everything as free as possible for anyone to use? But regarding business model for wallets, I think there's lots of interesting ideas to explore. So one of them, because we started doing Staking recently, what idea would be if you wanted to go this route is to run your own node, and so let all your users to validate into your node. So in this case, you could be making percentage based on how much being delegated.

So that's one idea. And then you can have also different access to different application like DAPS, where you can charge a small referral fee, those kind of ideas. And then plus we have a Fiatgate, so we have integration with Simplex, MoonPay, wire. So we could be charging fees on that. But for us, it's not as critical at the moment because Binance itself is profitable. and then it's good that we have this opportunity just to run the team, build technology,

and not to worry about the business model. So I don't think many companies have that ability, but I'm just happy that we have this. And we'll just utilize it as much as we can. Cool. Well, as we wrap up, where can people learn more about trust wallet and all the different things you guys are building?

Yeah, I think we just recently launched community. So that's where we would like to share more announcements, more ideas on what we're working on. but in general, we're pretty accessible on Twitter. I think that might be the easiest way to kind of get in touch. But otherwise on trustwold.com, I'm pretty open, so I always tweet out about trust wallet. I talk to anyone who asks interesting questions.

Cool. Thanks for coming on, Victor. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Thank you, Victor. Yeah, thanks so much. Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week. You can find and subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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