Escaping the Drift with John Gafford - Exploring the Future of Smartphones and Income Generation with Dan Novaes

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

Join us as we uncover the fascinating world of Dan Novaes, the innovative CEO of Mode Mobile, whose entrepreneurial spark was ignited during his teenage years. Dan's journey from arbitraging electronics between the U.S. and Brazil to spearheading a revolutionary approach to mobile tech is nothing short of inspiring. His vision for Mode Mobile is profound: transforming smartphones into tools that generate income and help reduce income inequality. Through this episode, you will discover how his unique upbringing and international experiences set the stage for the groundbreaking business model of rewarding everyday smartphone usage.   Dan's path to success is marked with both challenges and triumphs. After a series of entrepreneurial ventures, including a promising app collaboration that skyrocketed almost overnight, Dan's focus shifted from traditional business to software development. This pivotal transition led to the creation of EarnPhone, a system designed to reward users for their daily smartphone activities. By building partnerships with brands and using direct advertising, Mode Mobile shares the value generated from users' attention and data, creating a symbiotic relationship between users and advertisers.   We also explore Mode Mobile’s ambitions for global expansion, with an emphasis on partnering with major phone manufacturers to bring this model to the world stage. As Dan discusses the strategic balance needed for operational scaling, the conversation touches on fostering a transparent remote work culture and leveraging AI technology. The episode concludes with a glance into the future of technology, highlighting Mode Mobile's potential to redefine income opportunities. Dan's insights provide a roadmap for aspiring entrepreneurs and tech enthusiasts looking to harness the evolving landscape of smartphones and AI.   CHAPTERS    (00:01) Escape the Drift (02:17) Entrepreneurship Journey (07:59) App Success Pioneer's Entrepreneurial Partnership (18:41) Monetizing Smartphone Usage With Reward System (25:18) Global Expansion and Operational Scaling (32:18) Revenue Strategy and Business Growth (42:34) Building a Transparent and Remote Culture (46:43) Future of Technology and Business Growth (53:36) Podcast Promotion and Engagement   💬 Did you enjoy this podcast episode? Tell us all about it in the comment section below!    ☑️  If you liked this video, consider subscribing to Escaping The Drift with John Gafford  ************* 💯 About John Gafford: After appearing on NBC's "The Apprentice", John relocated to the Las Vegas Valley and founded several successful companies in the real estate space.   ➡️ The Gafford Group at Simply Vegas, top 1% of all REALTORS nationwide in terms of production. Simply Vegas, a 500 agent brokerage with billions in annual sales Clear Title, a 7-figure full-service title and escrow company.   *************   ✅ Follow John Gafford on social media:   Instagram ▶️ / thejohngafford   Facebook ▶️ / gafford2   🎧 Stream The Escaping The Drift Podcast with John Gafford Episode here: Listen On Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7cWN80gtZ4m4wl3DqQoJmK?si=2d60fd72329d44a9 Listen On Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/escaping-the-drift-with-john-gafford/id1582927283    *************   #escapingthedrift #dannovaes #entrepreneurship #mobiletech #incomeinequality #smartphoneusage #businessmodel #appdevelopment #globalexpansion #operationalscaling #revenuestrategy #remoteworkculture #aitechnology #technology #businessgrowth #podcastpromotion #engagement #transparency #remotework #aitools #universalbasicincome #crowdfunding

In that sense, at some point, you're like, wait, you're buying all of this stuff from us. How many uncles do you have? How many do you have? And why do they need so many leather jackets in Brazil? And now escaping the drift, the show designed to get you from where you are to where you want to be. I'm John Gafford and I have a knack for getting extraordinary achievers to drop their secrets

to help you on a path to greatness. So stop drifting along, escape the drift, and it's time to start right now. Back again for another podcast of Like It Says in the Opening Man gets you from where you are to where you want to be. And today people, beamed through the interwebs live into the studio, I got a cat that has invented something pretty cool. It is a and no, it's not going to be an infomercial. If you're thinking that is not what we do.

We do not take paid placement on this show. It's not how this works. I just generally thought this was pretty cool and I want to talk to the guy about it. So he is the CEO of a company called mode mobile where he has created a way he his goal in life. called Mode Mobile, where he has created a way. His goal in life, what he's trying to do is stop the income disparity, the wage gap,

by allowing you to take your cell phone and turn it into a tool that makes money. So let's talk to him. Let's see, let's see, let's get the ins and outs of that business and learn all about them. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the program. This is Dan DeVeyas. Dan, how are you? I'm good, thank you Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the program. This is Dan Novea. Stan, how are you?

I'm good. Thank you for having me, John. I appreciate it. You're good. Welcome, man. So dude, entrepreneurship is not something that is new for you. It's not something you just started.

This is something you've been doing your whole life, right? I've been, yeah, doing businesses ever since I was in high school. So it's just kind of like in the DNA. And even before I knew the word entrepreneurship was, you know, I have these little tricks that I would do, I guess, as a kid, you know, to try and make a couple extra bucks, I guess. What did your parents do that would cause you to be born an entrepreneur? Tell me about

you growing up. So, yeah, so I mean, I grew up, my parents weren't necessarily entrepreneurs. They were like parents that did allow me to have, I think, a lot of freedom relative to my friends. Like I never had a curfew. I never had those type of kind of like rule sets. It was very like, you know, independence driven. So I think that was helpful.

I think actually where the entrepreneurship really came was, you know, I grew up through two very different environments my whole life. I grew up in southern Indiana and Sao Paulo, Brazil, where I was from. I'm from originally, my family's from Brazil. And the very different places. And I think the areas that I really started to really notice that difference as I was in my early teen years or going into sixth, seventh, eighth grade, was that things in Brazil were actually way more expensive. Things that I cared about, you know, going into like sixth, seventh, eighth grade, was that, you know, things in Brazil were actually way more expensive, like things that I cared about, at least like, you know, like an Xbox or a car or whatever, because of this insane import tax. And every

time I go back to, you know, Brazil, my family like, Oh, can you bring like all of these electronics? Sure. Like, why? And so you know, you realize that and you're like, Wow, like, these are two places that as a kid, you realize are, you know, to me, they're, they're different, but they're also the same. It's like just people that I'm dealing with. But then I thought, wow, there's like, I could sell this stuff here, make a profit, vice versa, I could take stuff here and sell it there. And that's how my first business has started.

And, you know, by the time I was a senior in college or in high school, I was doing a couple of million dollars a year in revenue, you know, from one of those businesses, just simply arbitraging electronics from here to Brazil. That's where it started in Brazil. So basically, you know, the thesis was like, I was like a eBay, at the time a titanium power seller, which for me is like a big title, you know, back in the day. And where it all started was, you know, I had a part time job that I was working at Polo at the time I had just gotten a car. And my dad was like, this, I'm a part time job that I was working at Polo at the time.

I had just gotten a car and my dad was like this, I'm not going to pay for all these extra things that you want in your car. You want a sound system, all that stuff. You need to get a job. And so I went, got a job at Polo, worked for a week, got like a $70 paycheck. And I had this like aha moment when this like tour bus of, you know, foreigners came from, you know, they're coming from Japan, I believe, because there's a Toyota factory by my town. And they spent $40,000 on that day. I'm at that store. And it was just me and one other kid that was there. I'm thinking I'm going to get this great reward for like, you know, dealing with all this on a random Sunday. And I got a $5 like RB's gift card. That was like my reward, you

know, and I was super pumped. And then I got that I was like, really upset, you know, but at the time I had this 40% discount at the store. And I was like, man, if I just gave them 20%, I could have made a K, you know, and then, you know, not that that would have worked exactly like that, where I sold my discontent. But that's where I had no hot moment. I was like, Oh, what am I? Why don't I just buy some of these items? And then I'll sell them on eBay. And so I walked around the entire store. I had a

Palm trio at the time. And it was like the smartphone of the time. And I was like, picture in the Palm trio 600 and P. And so I would like take the pictures, get the serial numbers. And then I cross reference found this jacket. And this one Jack leather jacket was like selling there at the store for 180 bucks at this factory and outlet. And online, it was like 380. I bought three on emergency credit card, kept the receipt, you know, my dad's emergency card. And by the next day, I

had sold all three, you know, and I made 680 bucks or something. And I was like, what the hell just happened? You know, I just made more money in this day that I had made the entire month I'd be working here here times five, right? And so I think that that's like where that started thinking. And then I was like, Oh, well, why don't I sell these items in Brazil? It's worth even more there. And so over the course of the next five months, I made like 30 grand in profit, just by reselling Polo stuff eventually had to leave that job for some sustainable model. In that sense, at some point, you're like, wait, you're buying all of this

stuff from us. How many uncles do you have? How many? And why do they need so many leather jackets in Brazil? And so it was excessive. But it was like the initial, I think, starting capital to get started. And then, and where I started really noticing why I moved into electronics, it was like at the time is like when Apple iPod was getting really big and all this stuff. And you know, internationally, this isn't as much of a supply chain issue now. But back back then, this is like almost 20 years ago, or probably 20 years ago. Typically electronics would come out in America first, and then

everywhere else, it was like three to six months later. So in addition to that arbitrage that already occurs based on currency arbitrage, there was also the delay. And so I can be the first person selling something and then basically sell it to the wealthiest people of that country. And then I saw that that be true in the UK and Australia. You could buy electronics and then like, you know, unlock the phones like smartphones, you could buy like bricked phones, if you wouldn't pay their bills on Verizon and

AT&T, Black Bear or sorry, Verizon and Sprint at the time here, and you can make a couple hundred bucks. So that's kind of like how the business started. And I literally, you know, set up a warehouse in the UK that I moved to Australia, I did the same thing. And I was like hiring like my taxi cab driver, you know, that I, like a guy I lived in Australia for six months in college. And I literally hired a cab driver that was just like, you've got a good guy I met, we interviewed him. And then, you know, that's how I was setting this stuff up. So, you know, that's where it all started. But then, you know, got into software after that. And there was a whole long story of how we did that. But I think that's where the foundation of entrepreneurship went. And kind of what was

going through my head at the time was, you know, that this was like for me, you know, I didn't know, I didn't want to work a regular job, you know, and I really came to that realization probably like my sophomore junior year of college where it confirmed after like two internships that it just wasn't made for me, I guess. Well, I like to say that all great entrepreneurs are chronically unemployable. So that's not a surprising part of that story whatsoever. Um, to be great at this, you just can't be able to work for somebody else as part of how it works. So you said you were doing this and then you branched into software. You said it's a long story.

Good news is we got time. So how did you make the, so that was the first pivot was into software. Honestly, dude, the way that happened, it was like, I don't know. Oftentimes the worst things in your life are usually the best things for you, I guess. So at the time, uh, you know, I had, I did a bunch of different businesses in college while running this company, you know, I had a screen printing business, I started a college music websites before Spotify and you're getting about a million people a month listening to my music playlist. It wasn't making a ton of money though. But right around this time, I remember sleep,

I was sleeping, it's fine, you know, my warehouse, I get an email from like, like, you know, our worker there, and the warehouse was robbed, you know, I didn't have any insurance on it or anything. And, you know, this is, I didn't have credit or anything. So this is all my money. I mean, it wasn't all my money. But I'm saying it's probably like 70% of my money. And apparently, like there was a FedEx guy that then you know, and then this warehouse got robbed in the UK. And he was so apolog money. And apparently, like there was a FedEx guy that then you know, in this warehouse got robbed in the UK. He was so apologetic, but really there was no recourse, right? And I remember thinking to myself, man, I just like wiped out like 70% of everything

I've ever worked for. At the time I'm now living in Chicago, I'm 22 years old, I just graduated. And I was like, how do I prevent this from happening? I was like, what a hassle because like, you know, the thing with electronics is, you might do a lot of revenue, but your margins like maybe 10%, you know, 10, 15%. You're not making a lot of money on the stuff. And so that was a huge hit to me. And so I was like, well, if I do software, not thinking about hackers, right, but I was just like, if I do software, that would not be possible. Right. And so at the time, it was kind of like, the iPhone was starting to get really big, App Store was getting really big.

We, a lot of the traffic that we were having on our site was on desktop. So I was like, oh, I should make an iPhone app. And, you know, I actually went on Fiverr. If you know the website, where you can get anything for five bucks. Sure. Found someone that had posted a listing

that was like, hey, I'll make an app for five bucks. So sounds very promising, you know, definitely. But hit hit him up and was like, Hey, this is what I want. And then he was like, you know, I can't make that for five bucks. But I'll make it for 85 bucks. I'm like, you know what, that's a great deal. Let's do it. Was like, you know, didn't really have any expectation for it. Six weeks later, you know, we're Skype friends. At this point in time, I get an app and the app actually works. Not the best app I've ever seen. I posted on the app store and we sent it out to the audience.

And I made like 10 grand right in like three days. I was like, this is insane. We're turn on investment. There's people. What's the functionality? What was the functionality? What did it do? So initially it was supposed to play music as like a music streaming app, but he didn't know how to do that. So what it did is it preloaded 10 songs and then it was like, um,

you know, that game that you would play on, um, you know, you're kind of like Microsoft where it's like, it's like a little puzzle and you got to clean up the puzzle. So it's like a picture that's all broken, right? It's like early PC days. Anyways, that's all it did. And it had like, you know, 20 of the favorite song of the songs that people liked and it would just kind of like, you know, 20 of the favorite song of the songs that people liked. And they would just kind of like, you know, kind of like a stupid game that was in there. That was kind of like a hybrid of the music and game. Very simple. And but honestly, you know, had made that 10k very

quickly and was every day making a couple hundred bucks. I'm like, dude, I'm making more money on this. And I did this with a guy from fiber who I turns out, you know, is my co founder still to this day. It turns out it was a 17 year old kid in high school that was about to graduate high school in the UK. And, you know, he was on fiber because it was his first ever project, he had just learned a code didn't really, you know, believe in his skills, and just wanted to work on a

project. And then I was like, Hey, listen, like I just graduated, you're about to go to college, you know, why don't you take a gap year, come move to Chicago, I was living in Chicago this time. And I had this idea, we're going to create apps without coding for people. And he's, he did it, like took a gap year and like came his parents allowed him. And we then started this company, we proceeded to struggle for a year, did not, it's not like that story of like, oh, and then everything happened. And it was great. And by you know, we started making a little bit of

money towards the end. But at the end, he was like, oh, you know, I can't take another gap year, and we're not making enough for me to be sustainable. So I'm willing to work on this part time. But I got to go back to college, right. So after that year, that's what happened. Did you know it'stime, but I gotta go back to college, right? So after that year, that's what happened. Did you know what's funny about, I'm gonna tell you something funny about that particular story you just told,

which is one of my best friends is the founder of a company called VShred, which you've probably seen all over your social media. And his partner in that business is an English kid that he met exactly the same way. On Fiverr? No, I don't know if it was Fiverr, but no, he just met this kid in England that was gifted.

This kid that was gifted with ad buying. And he was a kid of ice. And he was just like, why don't you move to America? Let's take a shot at this. There you go. And here we are now, they have a billion dollar company. So yeah, pretty impressive. But just literally the exact same story. So I guess if you're listening to this, there you go. And here we are now they have a billion dollar company. So yeah, pretty impressive. But just literally the exact same story. So I guess if you're listening to this,

if you want to start a great business, you got to find a high school kid in England because the second time I've heard this story, it's literally the second time I've heard this. Okay, there we go. All right, keep going. Sorry. Yeah, no. So, so it was, it was a crazy time, you know, we became friends And then he like goes back to have this freshman year, you know, you know, like freshman week, like, it's like super fun, whatever. And he's like, but I'm down this one week to kind of build this up. And I was like, Listen, I have this other idea for an app. I think we could knock it out in one week. Let's

try it out. He's like, Okay, I'm down. So we launched this app. And it was basically Instagram had, I think had just gotten acquired by Facebook, right? It was like that billion dollar acquisition at the time, but it's still relatively, you know, small compared to what it is today. This app was the first ever app that basically created Instagram as like an exchange system, meaning you could upload your photo and you could like someone's photo or you can follow them and you get a certain amount of coins for those actions or you can just buy coins. At the time, the way the algorithm worked on Instagram is the most likes most follows gets to the popular page. Once you get to the popular page, you get a ton of

organic reach. Yeah, doesn't work like that anymore. This app basically was the first time that you can do that without like bots, right. And this app went out and the first day came out, there's like four hours left in the day. And you know, every 24 hours, the clock resets and it made like 700 bucks. I thought it was a glitch. I was like, someone came in here

and probably went insane, bought that. The next day I see it rising through the charts. We're at like number four in the paid charts and the next day it made like 12 grand, right? And then the next day it made 20 grand, right? And it was just organically growing, had this really nice spiral loop. And then we were the 65th highest grossing app in the entire app store. And so every day, we're making like $20,000 profit, you know, on this product. And it got to a point that I was like, Look,

I think you should drop out of school. We should we should like keep building other apps. And he's like, listen, I can't get a visa because I don't have a college degree. And so he's like, if we raise an investment round, we can get a special visa called O1A visa. It's like people have extraordinary ability. And so then I went out to go try and raise money and we were able to raise a million and a half dollars.

We got Mark Cuban to become an advisor in the business as well at the time. And he dropped out of school and then we started this company, you know, three or four months into that app, Facebook tried to sue us, they were like, you know, they sent us a cease and desist, they didn't actually sue us, because we were like using their private API and like what we were doing. And so

we kind of adjusted the way that that worked. But ultimately, you know, that's how we got started in software and then kind of ran a lot of different apps, you know, through the years. And, you know, that kind of led to, you know, what we do now with mode is kind of all that learning all those different businesses. Um, and, uh, we sold a lot of, a lot of the app studio and apps to other people along the way. Um, but that's kind of like the story of those, you know, early twenties, uh, and, and you

have the pivots along the way. All right. So, so for those folks that are listening, uh, and, and, you know, the pivots along the way. All right. Just so, so for those folks that are listening, right. How many dogs did you have? I mean, did you guys just literally go on a streak of winners or did you, were there a couple of just dogs? I mean, the app builder was a dog and the entire thesis of that business. Um, it's not that it was like that business, some people made it work.

Like I, I just like, wasn't built to be a founder, I think like that, because I was like, I've always been a mass consumer founder, I would say, like every business I've ever operated has been like a B2C business focused on getting consumers in the door. That's like what I'm good at. That's what I like to do. And so, so that didn't work.

And like the, and then you have this consumer app and that did and that provided the capital. Then we were like, Oh, okay, let's make all these other apps. And we did these like celebrity apps. We were like the first ones to use like we were going like Vine kids, you know, at the time Vine was big. So we were really ahead of a lot of trends. And some of them made that money, but not to the scale of that first in Slyker app. And that was actually a big life lesson, I would say, because, you know, if we just would have focused on like some of the core value props that we were doing, instead of like wanting to like aim for a billion dollar outcome instead of like a several million or a figure,

but I was like so enamored with billion dollar, billion dollar outcome. And I just couldn't make it happen. And so eventually, though, it did lead to what became this business. So I would say probably like 22. Like, honestly, this company has almost failed 20 different times. And even even knew as early as a few years ago, like you're still dealing with those ups and downs. Because it's anything but easy, you know, and then when you think something's going great, you know, in 2021 2022, we had like an insane even with node our current business, like an insane growth rate. And everything's going because at the time, we were making a ton of revenue off of like, you know, crypto companies and financial like neo banks that were super high valued and money's cheap. So everyone's go public. So they're spending a ton of money on marketing. And that's how we make money is, you know, brands paying us

effectively for marketing. And in 2022, FTX happens, all this other stuff happens, Voyager goes bankrupt. That was one of our biggest clients, they own this millions of dollars. And suddenly my revenue goes away and my business almost like, you know, tanks. So that idea wasn't a dog, but it was also like the concept of what we were doing was working. But the market landscape changed. And you know, the errors that I made was like revenue concentration, like, oh, if 70% of your revenue is coming from like, you know, six or seven different people, and then they're all in the same industry, something happens, it can probably take you down a hundred percent. And so you learn these things along the way of diversification, um, and how to build

a business so that you don't fail. And I think every year that you don't die effectively, the likelihood of your success like infinitely scales, um, because you just get so much wiser, you know what I mean, of how you operate. Yeah. So what was the idea? Who came up with the idea for the current comp, the current iteration of what you guys are doing?

Yeah, with mode. So, yeah, so this is how essentially it started. You know, we had created a concept. So obviously we were in the app builder space. We kind of went from the start of the app kind of like boom, which was everyone wants an app to everyone's like, we don't need any more apps. Like honestly, if the house,

if the restaurant down the street gets an app, like I'm gonna have to freak out. You know what I mean? I don't wanna download that app. And so then I was like, oh, okay, well, we should build a kind of a super app that kind of brings all these services in one place. And then we focus specifically on media at the time. And so what ours specifically did was like, we aggregated all the music

services in one place, SoundCloud, Spotify, YouTube, all that stuff. And it was this idea of like, as multimedia, all the super apps, all those apps within it, ultimately didn't work. Like, like people, there was only one type of user using it. And that's this is actually how the idea started is that we asked these people, why are you using this product? And they all had one thing in common. They didn't pay for subscriptions. So they like that it was free and that you can stream unlimited

music. And at the time, the API is of these services, so how we integrated, they didn't show ads in them. So I, it was like a weird hack to have an ad free app experience with a huge library and obviously it does, you know, they could change that at any minute. It was just like unfortunate for us at the time. And then we asked them like, you know, why don't you pay? It's like, oh, because, you know, a budget conscious or whatever it might be. And they tend to have more time than they had money. So we're like, oh, because, you know, a budget conscious or whatever it might be, and they tend to have more time than they had money. So we're like, Oh, well, what if we paid you to listen to music? Like, would you be interested in

that? And then everyone was like, Yes, very interested in that. So we just put up a landing page. I don't know if you used to use Robin Hood, when it first came out, but they had this like referral mechanism that, you know, you could jump the line into it. And they get like, literally millions of installs on that. So we just put up a landing page. I was like, Hey, we'll pay you to listen to music. And we have like 250,000 people sign up in a matter of like, you know, weeks. And so we're like, okay, there's something here for sure.

And so we focus the entire business on paying you to listen to music. Problem is that music is like a horrible business and it's really hard to make money doing that. So then that's how we moved into like gaming. And then we moved into other types of activities that you would do on the phone. And before we knew it, we're like, really what we're building is like an operating system on the phone, focus on everything you do that rewards you. Right.

And if you're earning money to play games, to shop, to, you know, stream music, read the news, charge your phone. And so then that's how the whole concept was formed around EarnPhone and rewarding you for everything you do on this device and the 40 hours that you spend on average on your smartphone, that's only going up. So when you say that you, when you say you get paid for everything,

so who's writing the check for this? Like who's actually paying? Obviously it's advertising, obviously, but is it the Yeah, is it individual advertisers or the people that actually own the services that are being used? Because they're making money on advertising. Yeah, so so the way to kind of think about it is like, there are direct advertisers that will work with us. I mean, every

app when you're advertisers always a goal, right? For your podcast, it might be you want people to download your podcast, you want to wear it. So you're willing to spend money on that. For brands, same thing, right? So if it's a game like, like a candy crush or something like that, they want you to play their game. And because basically create a habit playing that game, and over time, you'll either see a lot of ads, and they'll monetize that way, or you'll buy stuff in the game. And so, you know, they'll pay us a certain percentage, just like they would Facebook, the only difference is that we reward the user per minute they play Candy Crush for a period of like a week or something like that. Vice versa, if it's like Robin Hood is like the client, which, you know, we work with, their goal is for you to deposit $5 into a trading account. And with with that, they're willing to pay like 100 bucks, say, and so we'll take that 100 bucks. And we'll say, Hey, user, if you deposit $5 into a brokerage account, we'll give you an extra 50. Robin Hood will give you $50 in free stock as well. So you

get 100 bucks for opening up your account here. So that's how you align value because we're taking a little bit of that. You're sharing a little bit with the user, and then you're aligning the value with the advertiser. What's kind of how the model works. Yeah. It's kind of a digital affiliate program is essentially what it is. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, and I think like what you'll see is like, you know, reward models are becoming way more. Like in the know now, I'd say, I think they were like, when we started this business, these kind of like make money products or reward products were kind of like, you know, gimmicky, I think, and you know, there's still like, um, advancements that are kind of happening gimmicky, I think. And there's still like advancements that are kind of happening.

But if you just think about the amount of time that people are spending on these devices, I mean, your attention and data is effectively being utilized to make trillion dollar businesses. And so we're just kind of sharing that value back with the user and just doing it in every facet of your life that you could possibly think of So I mean you guys currently have you have like 45 million users or something crazy right now

Yeah, we've had over 45 million people download and use our products from around the world I mean a good portion of that is also international which is you know, it's still kind of count as like a beta kind of program because It just shows the interest right at the end of the day, because, you know, in order for us to be really successful at what we're doing, you need to have the advertisers because the advertisers are essentially, you know, the ones that are kind of fitted filling the bill, you know, for those users. But, you know, most of that is organic, you know, in that sense. But we've had over 45 million people install users product.

And now the business is starting to acquire other assets and companies. Because you know, we're essentially in the business of sending you to use like the new TikTok app or the new game or whatever. And now we see an opportunity of being like, well, you know, there are the TikToks out there. But there's like a ton of these like utility apps that are like a little game or some photo filter app or, you know, whatever. And we can buy those apps, send users into those products. And then now we capture all of that lifetime value along the way.

So it's almost like the P like roll up model as well. That's kind of been very profitable. And then we're finding good cash flowing businesses and we bring them into the mode umbrella. I have an interesting question based on what's going on in the world right now, because this could be part it could be part of the equation, which is this, and you would kind of know, are your international users

worth the same to your investors as US? Do they value them more or less international users versus your US based users? US users are, I mean, it's in the value of, of kind of like lifetime value, US is the highest. And the reason being is just because fundamentally, the ad markets here are just the most advanced, the income per capita is the highest in the United States. And so you generally see it correlate to each country. Now here's the thing that's like really interesting though,

in the US, like right now our focus is on Android, because generally that's more of a budget conscious population. But in the US, like the ratio is like 5050. Right? Whereas if you go to a country like Brazil, or India or South Africa, whatever, you're going to get like 99% penetration for Android. So we just have a lot more people in those countries, you know, in worldwide, I think if you look, it's like, you know, 1.2 billion devices or so

are iPhones, and there's you look, it's like, you know, 1.2 billion devices or so, or iPhones, and there's like 6 billion of everything else, right? And so it's just like a lot more people are using Android devices. And so, you know, there's nice arbitrages to be made because some markets more efficient than others, you know. Well, the reason I asked that was because, you know, I've sat on this program since the tariff war started,

that, you know, the US consumer is the best commodity on earth. It, if you look at big business, it's worth more than anything else on earth. Um, yes, because the value of that, I was just curious if in your model with your advertisers, they said like, okay, if it's a U S we'll pay more for it because the long-term value of that is higher, or if it's international, we're going to be a little less cause we know we're probably going to get a little less on that. Yeah, it's for sure like that.

And you know, even countries like Canada, UK, Australia, it's still like 80% of what you get in the U S generally. Um, you know, it follows that pattern, you know, essentially. So you've gotten some, you've gotten some joint partnerships or some deals done with some big box brands. I mean, some big companies, I mean, that's my and Walmart and those things. How did you get those deals done? Man, honestly, it's, it was, uh, every which way I think is the right answer

here, cause it was like not something I had, um, you know, I guess like take a step back, like, you know, the thesis behind this was, you know, we started out as a software company and we're still a software had, you know, I guess like taking a step back, like, you know, the thesis behind this was, you know, we started out as a software company, and we're still a software company, you know, I think one of the misconceptions that we're a hardware company, I think the, the main idea behind the phone was like, literally, that when I came to that conclusion that what we're doing is effectively an earnobus. And what I wanted to test out is kind of like, if

someone bought a phone, that's value proposition was that, hey, you're gonna get paid to use your phone. Would that change the earning habit of some, right? And also, the time you first open up a device, there's all these new apps that you install, right? And each time that that happens, advertisers have to pay for that, right? So as opposed to when someone downloads our app, and you already have Facebook on there, there's no way I can monetize that action, right? So as opposed to when someone downloads our app, and you already have Facebook on there, there's no way I can monetize that action, right? And so that was like the thesis

behind why we launched our phone. And, you know, we launched the first one, I literally, we only made 5000 devices, and we just launched into our own users, and we sold out of it, we didn't have it in any stores, and I'm not saying, and it's not like, you know, we just try to do in the most scrappy way possible. We then in the second device, I was like, okay, this one we want to get into stores. And the main reason why we wanted to do that is just to also show that the model is possible because, you know, our vision as a business is actually not to be, it's more to be like Roku,

if you're familiar with Roku, the streaming service. What Roku was able to do in 2015, like they had like seven attempts to go public, and it failed every time and then 2015 they like really hit it and what they did differently and you know, now they're 10 billion plus bit of our business is effectively they license their software to TV makers like TCL, Panasonic, etc. And they get access to that distribution. So let the people that are great at manufacturing distribution, and then they do a rev share on your streaming habits and things of that

nature. And so that's what we wanted to do. The problem is that anytime I went to a big carrier or phone maker, it was just such an out of the like, like out of box model that people just didn't believe it was possible. And when they see it's an app, they're just kind of like, I don't really want to do that. Just put the yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they were just like, it just didn't have any credibility. So we're like, oh, we're going to launch

it into the stores like Walmart, Best Buy, show the data show it's possible. And that was the whole thesis. It wasn't to get a ton of distribution because, you know, of those 45 million, we're talking about 10s of 1000s of devices, we're talking about 10s of millions of installs, right. And so that the play there was just to show, hey, look, this cohort user, this is what happens when you have an earn phone. This is what happens even with like our device, which is definitely not as good as like a Samsung device from our advice, because I haven't been in

manufacturing for like 30 years, you know, but you can show that people are interested in it. And that's really the future of mode, you know, it's really kind of this idea, where we're going to see things like an AT&T or phone or a Samsung earned phone or a Motorola earned phone or in other countries where you know there's there's phone makers that you've never even heard of here in America like OPPO or Vivo that are literally like insanely like tens of billions of dollars business but they're the market leaders in India or they're the market leaders in Africa and so that allows us to license that to those people they then launch earned phones in their own country and that allows us to really kind of take over that model and be basically the creators of that earn phone idea.

Just very similar to how Roku did for smart TV. What prohibits Apple from slitting your throat? Well, I mean, Apple is, um, you know, they're not really, it's, it's kind of a different core market, I guess. Um, cause you know, people that have iPhones, like, they're not as much cost. I mean, if you're spending your entire month's rent, like a flagship device, right? It's like, it's like, you know, okay, cool. Like I can, yeah, you use this product for the entire year. You know, you'll be able to pay for your iPhone, and that stuff. And obviously, it's a good market, like, don't

get me wrong, we have solutions that we're thinking about actually, of what we want to launch for iPhone, that category, but it just wasn't our focus area. And even on the Android side, I think that, you know, the general idea is like, to build this business and to do it in the way that we've done it, it's very complex. It's not an easy business model to actually operate in because you're effectively creating money out of thin air. But I think the way that we also went about it was like, I don't see other reward products or survey apps or whatever as like, competitors. My goal as a business is like, how do I absolutely create the most value for you, you have to earnings and savings and value. And, you know, because those people want our users,

they're going to pay, you know, like like reward money to us that allows us to increase awards. And if you can earn from their product, great, like you should definitely do that. And so that's kind of like how the thesis of the business operates. Um, and why we kind of see that, you know, other companies want to work with us as opposed to like compete, you know, many people have tried to do this model. It's just not very easy to make actually work. Um, well speaking of which, I mean, dude, dude, you've run up a giant business. Let's go back a little bit and talk about how you scaled. Let's talk about operationally scaling.

How many people do you have now? How many employees do you have now? Yeah. Team members, we have a little over like 60, 65 or so employees. We have a lot of more part-time people as well. Like you were very, we have a lot a lot of more part time people as well, like you were very fully remote model. So, you know, after COVID decided to fully operate in that way. And so, you know, we we operate super lean, you know, and I mean, I think that that's the that's the one thing that you learn, you know, from those hardships along the way, is how

to make like some of our OKRs internally is like revenue per team member, you know, so we have goals, you know, like, what is the revenue per team member. You know what I mean? So we have goals, you know, like what is the revenue per team member? And then if it starts getting out of whack, then you know, you have to, you know, either create more revenue or be like, hey, like, are we being as efficient as we possibly need to be? But yeah, I mean, those are, you know, kind of how we think about it. What's more important in your business model is I always call it offense and defense, right? Because you need like offensive money would be generating new relationships and generating new revenue channels. And then defense would be the developers that are making sure your clients get experience or constantly improving. What is

your mix on offense to defense on your spend? Yeah. I mean, uh, people spend my highest cost is engineering, uh, and product because, you know, fundamentally, like we have certain business models that are the way to kind of think about mode is like, we actually have three different divisions in our business, we kind of have like a media division, mobile division, which is our core business. And then we have like down this like money division, which is kind of like some of the stuff we're doing within like the financial

services space. But and some of those divisions are way more profitable than others, because they're almost like, you know, be able to use the resources like I'll give you an example, like, when we were trying to find new revenue outlets, and after that whole thing debacle in 2022 that we had that we had to kind of really pivot the business and find new revenues, we realized, hey, you know, we have like 45 million emails that people, you know, came into our service. And what do we know that if you

like to earn and save, okay, let's create some newsletters to do to basically tell them about earnings and savings. And now that's a mid seven figure a year business for us with extremely high gross margin. Because all we're doing is doing something that like literally would just be an afterthought as a business person. Like I wasn't even monetized emails, you know, at that time. And then it's turned into something. So, you know, that's kind of like, obviously, that business line, maybe they're

way more offensive on like sales, and kind of getting new advertisers in. But the core business, you have to invest in like research and development. You know, you're like, if I wanted to operate just for pure profits, only profits, like we wouldn't need the amount of engineering and kind of product team that you have. But you but now we're very disciplined on like, okay, how do we spend and where do we want to make those investments? And how long are we willing to wait to before an investment comes in? Return on a

specific product area. And I think the other thing too, is like, you know, 2022, the way you operate your company 2021 22 with like, the soft banks of the world kind of funny and you know, $200 million rounds. It was like, yeah, growth, all costs, IPO, whatever. And then all the growth investors were basically underwater. Whatever you do, don't start a profit. Just don't make money. Whatever you do, don't make it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now it's the opposite. Yeah, now it's the opposite. And I don't know, we had to change a lot of our, um, like even the payback cycle, like we used to wait like six to nine months before we even got breakeven. And now it's like 45 days or less, you know, that we wait to basically, you know, turn a profit on the acquisition cost of a user versus, um, you know,

well, I was going to say, cause you've got to be at a place now where you're being approached at people that want to be part of what you're doing from an advertiser standpoint, like you guys have got to be big enough now where you, I mean, the inbound calls are probably greater than the outbound calls, I'm guessing. Yeah, I mean, it's both. I mean, you, you're getting inbound calls for sure, but I think anytime that you're setting up a new business line, um, you still have to go, I mean, there's like attention, attention, there's like so much happening at all times. And I think that,

you know, you need to be able to pierce those new channels. And also, it creates competition, too, you know, and in that sense. So I think like, for us, like, we are getting approached a lot of like, you know, partnerships and inbound, but we're also looking at, you know, what are other ways that we can grow our business? And again, going back to this, that concept I mentioned to you, like, that's something that wasn't even my brain, like a couple years ago, which is like this idea of like, you know, I'm in the business of like the moment that that action occurs, our revenue kind of adds, right? And, and that's fine, you know, but if you could capture the lifetime value of someone through a product that you build that people like, so that could be a game that could be a utility app, whatever, and that business in itself already has good cash flow, then you're basically creating like this insane kind of roll up strategy and you're kind of, you know, sending your consumers into a

new product, you're getting those consumers and you're creating a really strong network effect. And I think that's what you saw with Facebook and acquiring Instagram or acquiring's app and not every acquisition needs to be a multi billion dollar acquisition. You know, what we've seen a lot of opportunity has been like, you know, there's just these random teams, man, like we bought this product earlier here in January had 150 million installs, you know, about 2 million daily active users and you know, like nine or so million monthlies. And the app was like doing like $4 million, almost $4 million in EBITDA a year, right? Team of four, team of four people, right? In overseas call total cost 15k a month. I was like, how is this possible? You know, and then we vetted it, like we went through the diligence, vetted it,

we came up to a deal term, it was under three X, even I like the purchase. And, you know, there's these opportunities out there, right, you just got to find them. And then now we're growing that product and double its revenues, you know, we kind of took all of our insights, and now we're creating that network effect. And so it's basically kind of your users to that and their users to us. And then also then you have more spaces for advertisers to kind of like, you know, do that. Then you take your know-how of like, you know, data data analytics, user acquisition, all the things that we know how

to do because the founders that are building these businesses, I mean, they've crushed it in some way, like they found product market fit, but they may not be the most sophisticated in all these other areas, right? Just because you hit like, you know, gold once doesn't mean that it's going to come again. It's kind of like you even think of my story when I was 20, 22, right? 23 with my co-founder, we built some app that was literally spitting out five, 600 K a month and free cashflow. I got lucky, you know, it just, it just hit it like, you know, at that time. And so and so I think that like, that's a really interesting opportunity. If you look, there's a company called, actually, you should you should

check out this guy, because I think like, you know, you're a curious guy, if you haven't heard of it, but there's constellation software. And this, it's like the billionaire that no one's heard of. He's he looks like Gandalf, his name is Mark Landort, he has a huge Gandalf beard. And there's only two interviews, two interviews of his on the internet, like right, and I, I tried to find all the content that this guy says, but basically, he he has built a

$70 billion business, he raised $20 million once that's all he's raised, and then built a $70 billion business is publicly traded in Canada, right. And that's what's the most insane about it. But they acquire like a thousand companies a year and their business models on VMS software, which essentially is a vertical market software. It's like, they make super neat. They acquire companies that make super niche software. It's like, you know, the, you make it from like tennis courts or

tennis clubs in like Florida. And so there's not a ton of clients, but they're super profitable, but it's like one to four million dollar businesses. These guys go and acquire thousands a ton of clients, but they're super profitable, but it's like one to $4 million businesses. These guys go and acquire 1000s of those a year. And they have been able to do that for the last 20 years. And that built a machine that just spits out so much cash. And it's operates in a very decentralized fashion. And so that's the type of stuff that's like really kind of inspiring, like when I see

the future of mode going into which is really like, you know, we have this great ecosystem of opportunity where we have users, they're incentivized to go try out new products. You have on the other hand, a bunch of these small little apps that, you know, this is a great radio app, this is a great photo filter app, this is a great little game.

And they're cashflow positive. You bring those things together and then essentially create the network effect and then you could create this monster, monster opportunity across multiple different verticals. But can't see like one of the things I always talk about too. One of my favorite things to do is when we are going to get a new vertical, I simply find the best people that I can find in that vertical and then I direct all of our existing client base to that vertical. And then when I can become more than 50% of revenue, we become their partner is what we do. So you can now do the same thing and acquire like, you can say, Hey,

we'll push our people, your little product. And then if it's working, we can roll it. You can roll them up. Yeah. I mean, that's essentially the, I mean, that's a publisher model. I mean, we're still experimenting with this and what this looks like for us. But, you know, I think that a lot of, anytime you have a channel like a medium of like, the ability to bring people in,

that's what creates that network effect opportunity, and you look at guys like Tony Robbins, for example, you know, and I've done a lot of his stuff. It's like, you can kind of see that he's selling you in some capacity, but I almost don't mind the way he's telling it to me. But it's like, and if you do the core, it's like you see like, all these different areas, and then he

taps into all aspects of life. And each one of those was through a partnership, and then he potentially acquires them. But that's how you know, you have one guy who created one brand, that then built a multi billion dollar kind of empire, through all of these facets of kind of like, you know, what it takes to have a whole life, which is whole thing. I mean, I'm not saying that we're doing exactly, you know, his, but you can see that in many different places,

you know, being played out. And that's how I feel about it. I think, I think, I think you're seeing that all over the place, cause that's like what Graham Cardone just did with Gary Brucka with the 10X thing. Little messy. Yeah. Apparently that's now working out, but,

but it's the same idea. It's the same concept. So let me ask you this, let's change. Cause you got your people all over the place. You're remote. Obviously you guys have a high standard for what you expect out of your people. How do you, how do you hold that standard and create a company culture when everybody is scattered? What do you do? How do you manage that?

Yeah, I think that's a, that's a great question. Um, I mean, I think like, you know, we have, uh, I mean, we've been doing it for like five years in a full remote, right? First, I think like, you know, one thing to say is like, I had a much easier time running a fully remote company than a hybrid company. I think it's actually really difficult to run a hybrid company. Because some people have that in office culture and kind of those that report and whatever, and other people that don't because they're fully remote. And so when we decided to be fully remote, it was to really to

embrace that and then create the best company we possibly could fully remote. The things that we do specifically around doing that, you know, we brought in a chief people officer really early on, like we had like 25 people. And then someone that person's like one of our main jobs is literally to almost create like an NPS internally. So we had anonymous kind of reviews of how the company's doing. And then you have like really strong core values around that you've listened to the people's feedback. But also, you know, we have crazy transparency within our business. So even when things were going awry, in our business are going well, you know, we have like a weekly, you know, act meeting, which is actually the acronym for all of our core values. And

that's basically a 20 30 minute meeting. So people know exactly how this is going in the various departments. And then we have an all hands meeting, and it shows everything down to the financials and whether we're losing money, how much money you have in the bank. And so even in those difficult times that we had, you know, during those periods of like 2022, 23, when things are kind of coming up, again, we only lost one team member, right? And we had to have a layoff that was like,

you know, we had a hundred and something members at one time, we had to cut down to like 50, right? And that was difficult, we did two rounds of cuts. And typically in those times, you see a lot of like your best people leave. And fortunately, we only lost like one or so team member, you know, that we didn't, you know, make that decision to go. And the reason is like, I think of that kind of like transparent culture. And then just, you know, being able to, you know, listen to people see that they're in their voice matters, and also being able to just kind of see your, you know, internal like how the how the, you know, the saying goes like the, I don't know how the how the

pudding is made or something. I don't know, I'm forgetting like the saying, you know, I same goes like the, I don't know how the how the pudding is made or something. I don't like the same, you know, I'm talking about that. Right now. But anyways, like, so I think that that's kind of like how has been really helpful. But I think also, just on more the operational time, or operational side of things, we've been very focused on OKRs. And I was really, I'm not the most organized person, because I'm much more of a visionary. Yeah, I think we've been very focused on OKRs. And I was really, I'm not the most organized person because I'm much more of a visionary thinker.

We have a lot more integrated. That are way more operational than me, I guess in that sense. But I think like one thing I really forced on myself to have the discipline in is to operate with an OKR like framework of how we operate our business. So, you know, departmental OKRs, ensuring that, you know, everyone's really aligned

on what they're supposed to work on, and then being able to kind of track those OKRs so that people know exactly what their goals are, ensuring that the managers get comped based on that. It's like, you know, everything aligns to that. And it literally took us like four years to do it. And it's so painful to do, to be honest, if you're not wired in that way.

But I think that that's been one of the most impactful, important things, along with these other things that we've learned to create a good remote culture that allows for like, you know, we have like a 90 80 90% satisfaction rate, and the average company is like 65% or something like that. It's awesome that we use. And I think that those are all things that add up to be able to build a great remote company. I mean, I would love to run a 1000 person kind of remote company one day that fully operates autonomously in more of a decentralized fashion. And that's what I'm trying to move more and more towards as we think about our business. Well, I run a 600 person in-person company. So yeah, that's what I'm trying to move more and more towards as we think about our business. Well, I run a 600 person in-person company.

So yeah, that's definitely, it would be a what, what to do for sure. Um, I have a question. I have a question though. What is, and this has gotta be tough man is as a founder that's making good business decisions. What is the temperature within your engineering departments with AI moving as fast as it is? Is there a little bit of fear?

Cause there's, I don't know if you saw it. There was a post that was going around Facebook yesterday and damn it, I just forgot who wrote it, but it was a, it's a CEO of a major corporation. And he sent a letter out to all of his, all of his people. It was a CO fiber. You saw, you saw it where he's like, yeah, yeah, AI is coming for our job.

It's coming for your job. It's coming from your job. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think even for the I mean, honestly, I sent it to my co founder. Yeah, I was like wise words from the CEO. I know it's like, yeah, special place for us. I mean, I think that I mean, their business in particular, if you think about like, uh, and he wrote it in a better, in a really good way. It was something along the lines of like, you know, easy tasks, like what used to be easy tasks or like brainless tasks.

Now, what are, what used to be hard tasks. That goes away. Yes. Yeah. What used to be impossible is the new hard, right? And I was really well set, you know, but I think if you think about their business, right, like, what does that business thrive from? It's been like literally like stupid graphic design or not stupid, but like, you know, make a logo, you know, like, dude, you can do that with, you know, chat, you know what I mean? So I think like, it doesn't impact my business as much as I would say theirs, because that's like kind of their core thing. The way that we've been thinking about AI internally is like, we need, I've been really adamant about like, every all of our engineers should be using things like GitHub, copilot, or whatever,

because it basically makes like a, you know, a 1x engineer, like a 1.4x engineer, or, and in some cases, if you're like a 3x engineer, it could potentially make you a 9x engineer, it just depends how well you know how to use it, how much you care about it. And so that's all about efficiency. The other component of it is how to basically make sure your business is smarter. You know, we're starting to invest a lot more on that internally with our own tools and internal sets. And the way that we also think about like our broader core mission is around this concept around universal basic income. And it's not that we're in favor of necessarily the government paying for that. It's like, yeah, I have a test yet,

you know, that's kind of like, what are tools that we can also provide to our consumers over time to allow them to earn additional income? Because now with AI, you could potentially create like, you know, royalty free music, for example, that other people can listen to you and you could urge dreaming on or, you know, products or whatever. And so how do we use this technology to enable, um, earning and saving, uh, for our consumers in some capacity. That's how we're thinking about it into the future.

Yeah. A buddy of mine is funny. You're talking about music, a buddy of mine just developed a brilliant AI platform and essentially what it it is is the AI, you got together with a bunch of the top songwriters in Nashville, cause he's one of them. And they all have AI bots of them. And you can go in the studio with them and write a song.

And the cool thing about it is, is then that song can be used for anything licensed, but the songwriter gets- Does not have to be a part of but the songwriter gets credit for it, gets royalties for it as a producer. So like literally my buddy, they launched it up. He, you know, I talked to him the next day. He's like, I wrote 800 songs yesterday.

And who knows? And yeah, it's really smart. Cause he's like, yeah, my AI that knows my tones and how I like things and how I would mix things and how things would go. I wrote 800 songs. That's really interesting. It kind of reminds me actually of what's that number? There's a service that masterclass. So

masterclass has like an AI that's like, you know, it's like you part of their service now is like, Hey, you got basically the Mark Cuban bot or the, you know, insert like professional Gordon Ramsey bot, whatever. And then now you kind of like get a fed from their brain, I guess. I think it's like super interesting. I have kids tell me my cooking is shit. I don't need Gordon Ramsey bot. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, they might get like, it might probably have to be also haze them, to be honest in his case. Yes, haze my children. That's what I need you to do Lord,

man. The haze my children. So what's the future, man? Where do you see this going? What's on the horizon? I mean, yeah, I mean, I think like, uh, we are, you know, we're scaling, we're growing. I mean, this early part of this model has really been, um, of this last two years really has been around kind of diversification of revenue and expanding our services and reach. And I think like, we did a super successful

like Reg A plus offering, which is kind of like a retail offering allows investors to, any retail investor to go through and invest in the business. And we got qualified by the SE to do that. We brought in over 50,000 shareholders so far, and so have been able to raise nearly, you know, over actually $50 million, you know, just to crowdfunding for, you know, over the last couple of years. And so, you know, we see consumers really interested in many of these people are not our target market. They're much more wealthy individuals, but they see they believe in

the vision. So I think where the future is, you know, we eventually want to take this business public. That's our North Star and North Focus. But where we're going as a business, you know, we believe that the phone will be free. We're the closest company to make the phone free. It's not an easy thing to do. So, you know, we're still still a long way, you know, to kind of fully delivering on that vision. But I think that whoever can unlock that, that creates a trillion dollar opportunity because that is the one thing that we do the most. I mean, there's 168 hours in a week. If you're sleeping eight hours, there's 112 left.

And then if you check your phone and your screen time, people are spending anywhere from 40 to 50 hours a week. So one third to one half of your life is being spent on this device every single week, which is insane. And so I think that, you know, if you, if you think about that, what's possible, it's a really, really big opportunity.

And, you know, I think that we're just scratching the surface of where our story will be here in the next few years to come. Yeah. All right. Well, if you want, if you want to, if they want, you want them to take a look at your reg D or get your app, or do you have a centralized place where they can find you? Yeah, I mean, the best way to find information on the company is invest.mobl.com. You can also download our app and you can claim actually free shares. We're actually the first ever,

I think we're actually the first ever company that's ever been qualified to allow people to use their points to invest in the company if they wish. And so, you know, our goal is to be the first ever company with a million shareholders prior to so, you know, our goal is to be the first ever company with a million shareholders prior to going, you know, public into the markets. And so the idea is to kind of build that ambassadorship and we're taking basically users, turn them into earners and earners now turn into owners.

So those are two great places to go. You can download our product, you know, get shares for free, no cost, or you can check out our site and invest on movable.com and learn more, watch the content, you know, yeah out our site and invest on the mobile.com and learn more. Watch the content. You know, yeah, and be a part of the community. Well, dude, I love it, man. And thanks for joining us. If you're ever in Vegas, you let me know, man. I got you. I got you. I got you covered. Whatever you need. I'll take

you somewhere where you can lose some of that money you've got. Well, guys, wrapping up today, man, the one thing that I would say you should have taken out of that is if you want to be incredibly valuable, not just to yourself, but to other businesses to what you're doing, capture an audience and be able to move them around to different ecosystems. There's a lot of value in that, whether you're promoting a party in the nightclub or bringing a million users from one app to another. Because if you do it enough times and you do it right, apparently you'll have enough money to walk around with a Gandalf beard. So that's it.

We'll see you next week. What's up everybody. Thanks for joining us for another episode of escaping the drift. Hope you got a bunch out of it or at least as much as I did out of it. Anyway, if you want to learn more about the show, you can always go over to escapingthedrift.com. You can join our mailing list, but do me a favor. If you wouldn't mind, throw up that five-star review, give us a share, do something, man. We're here for you. Hopefully, you'll be here for us. But anyway, in the meantime, we will see you at the next episode.