Escaping the Drift with John Gafford - Navigating Tax Strategies and the AI Revolution with Neil Jesani

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, it's John Gafford from the Escaping the Drift podcast. And big news, my new book, Escaping the Drift is coming out. November the 11th, you can pre-order it right now at thejongaford.com. There are tons of bonuses, tons of giveaways. Get the book. If you are somebody that feels like you might be drifting along, this is for you. If you know somebody that feels like they might be drifting along, this is for you. Available everywhere, all bookstores, everywhere, Amazon, Barnes & Noble's, the whole nine yards.

Starting point is 00:00:29 But pick your copy up. right now at the john gafford.com and get a bunch of the awesome bonuses i've thrown out because i promise you i put my heart and soul into this thing i want it to help you change your life pick it up everywhere i want to i'm gonna back up on that story because you said something i was a little more a little interested in which was number one what was the book you remember and now escaping the drift the show designed to get you from where you are to where you want to be i'm john gafford and I have a knack for getting extraordinary achievers to drop their secrets to help you on a path to greatness. So stop drifting along, escape the drift, and it's time to start right now.

Starting point is 00:01:08 Back again, back again for another episode of like it says in the opening man, the podcast that gets you from where you are to where you want to be. And today, beaming into the studio, we are lucky to have somebody that has been a consistent contributor to all kinds of places like the Wall Street Journal, CNN, Forbes, CBS, NBC, and NBC, I mean, literally everybody, this guy's got an opinion. He wrote a great book back in 2008 called Win the War for Money and Success, an Investment Guide to Long-Termin, Financial Growth, and Retention. And we are lucky to have him beaming into studio today. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the broadcast. This is Neil Gisani.

Starting point is 00:01:44 Neil, how are you, sir? Thank you for having me, John. It's always pleasure to talk to. Yeah, so before your life is a tax expert, you were in the entrepreneur game. So walk me through your very very very. ventures. How did you get started? What'd you do and what happened? So, originally from India came into this country in 2000 and, you know, I started working with firm in, you know, New York City. It was, you know, tax and financial planning firm. I really

Starting point is 00:02:15 enjoyed it. This is what I did. But, you know, I was very, very fascinated by technology and, you know, that I had some entrepreneurship as well. So that actually when I got my green card and, you know, my actual work permit. I started my first company in actually 2007. And since then, my entrepreneurship started. So I started the first company. Then I ended up starting, you know, actually, you know, HR software company. Obviously, I'm not the, you know, kind of actual technology guy, but I always had, you know, kind of actually co-founder who are, you know, technological and I'm more kind of, you know, actually business finance guy kind of things. While building the HR software company i stumbled upon on actually cyber security idea uh and uh i build the uh

Starting point is 00:03:03 you actually cyber security you know service and product company and we ended up getting exit in 2008 and then i uh you know that actually i moved to florida uh i had no desire to you know really do anything except you know i actually work out from my home and my you know actually workout clothes uh you know i came in over here and uh you know actually fast forward to Today, I run, you know, actually very successful tax and accounting firm. We are close to 60 people with the three dozen or so tax attorneys and, you know, CPAs and so on so forth. So, you know, sometimes God takes you, you know, where you have been no idea. So, but it is all good so far. It will back up a little bit because you talked about moving here from India.

Starting point is 00:03:48 Tell me about you growing up in India. Tell me about that. So I grew up in average family. I was, you know, I grew up in a very small town in India. you know, Western part of India, I call, you know, actually Gujarat and, you know, that other. But I was, you know, actually, you know, actually very good at education. So happen to be at right place, right time, even though I was probably second in my family to get the college degree. But as I happened to be a bright student, happened to go to the good school and I ended up, you know, getting the great education. And then, you know, actually, before moving to U.S., I went to Dubai. But that actually India part, I was there until, I guess, you know, until my age 25, and then I moved out of India.

Starting point is 00:04:31 Were your parents wealthy people or not wealthy people? No, they were just healthy people. Nice family, but it was hardworking, but no, there's no money. In fact, I used to laugh, John. You know, actually, when you're asking, you know, that actually I used to laugh and I would ask people that do you know how many people used to die in my town in a car accident and people will throw some numbers? is zero and there was no cars. I had a car. The reason I bring that up is because, you know, coming to this country from India, when

Starting point is 00:05:03 you were a boy growing up in that, in that, you know, not necessarily destitute, but, you know, seeing what you saw every day, did you ever dream that you could have the success that you got by moving to this country? No, I had, you know, I had no vision. You, you know, you grew up as like a normal thing because that other, you know, you grew up in average family and that I think these are very, very. important question which we can touch upon in the other contexts as well but so many a time the where you grew up does matter so that there so there was no vision there was nothing uh you know that

Starting point is 00:05:35 other you know there was no guidance by the uh you know extra parents even though it's it was a great family but they can tell you that hey son you know i should work hard and go to harvard or uh you unaxia stanford or do this one or something like that one so no there was there was essentially nothing it just happened the the reason i say that is because I think, you know, especially since COVID, like this level of apathy that runs through people in this particular country, that there's some sort of, you know, systematic force that's holding you back and the system is designed so you can't succeed. You know, I imagine coming from the situation that you came from to this country, you just have zero tolerance for that type

Starting point is 00:06:13 of thinking. Oh, absolutely. You know, it's so funny you're saying, John, this is what something is very you know i tell sometimes people that people who are born in this country they don't understand the value of this country how fortunate is to be american basically so that other no that other i don't have any tolerance for that one you need to really work hard there's a tremendous opportunity look at the guy who comes from india you know those kind of things you come over here and you build so this country rewards as long as you're you know hard working uh i'm not sure you're not chat homes but you know chat home used to say that anybody can make a decent living by working half day and half day meaning 12 hours right so that are the meaning that actually you need

Starting point is 00:07:00 to work hard and if you really become good at what you do and if you have your ethics in a place i think you know you can achieve whatever you want to achieve in a life and that end of the day goal is to be happy obviously uh you want to uh you know try to make you know that actually money that you could but end of the goal is to be happy in a life and as long as you do the right thing I think everything falls in a place how do you break the thinking how do you break the thinking of people that are stuck in that kind of rut to think that way I think my you know John my fundamental theory is hard work solves all the problems I think problem is probably at the hard work you know so that

Starting point is 00:07:44 as long as you're putting the efforts you know you will get the result, right? I mean that we have, you know, seen so many times the average people, you know, actually putting the efforts and they will go far in life versus, you know, actually brilliant people, but they are bozo, lazy, will not be far, right? So that, I would say somebody has to tell this people that, hey, put some more efforts, you know, and that other, you know, actually, once you put the right efforts, you know, that this country, there are many people who will recognize your efforts. So if you're busting your chops, somebody say hey this kid or you know this guy is working hard you know i need to take care of

Starting point is 00:08:23 him if i'm not taking care of him somebody else will take care of him right so better i take care of him and you will get to the places so i think i personally believe uh that other you know hard work and ethics i think it is uh you know very very important when you first came to the country did you find somebody that you would identify as a mentor and how did you do that So that other, I, you know, it was actually a great question. So that there, when I came into this country, I work in, you know, New York City for almost, you know, actually seven years before I started on my own. That place happened to be a great place. We had some, you know, three floors, you know, 300 people, you know, that, you know, they gave us a training of, you know, working at least 12 hours a day.

Starting point is 00:09:06 So I used to reach office at 7.30 and never left before 7.30. So in that scenario, and that's actually a quick story, I think this is going to help you. So, you know, actually my boss at that time gave me a book and said that, Daniel, why don't you read this book? So that he said, how much time do you need? So I said, maybe a week, 10 days. So, you know, at that time, I used to sit in, you know, actually, Wapen area. So he came into me after 10 days.

Starting point is 00:09:34 He said that, can I have a book? I said, sure. He said that. So he took the book in his hand. And then he said, Neil, did you read it? I said, yeah, absolutely. It was very nice. So he said, you know, by the way, I forgot Neil,

Starting point is 00:09:46 when I gave you a book, every time I give the book to anybody, I did also ask him to prepare a one pager on a book for me. So have you prepared the one pacer? I said, no, I was not aware. So he said that I'm going to be here. Why don't you write that other one pager? So obviously he knew that I was bullshitting that I haven't read one story short that he said to me he said that don't give me bullshit ever this is for you if you want to read

Starting point is 00:10:17 and fast forward today you know that after that one i used to read 50 books a year and it was a tremendous learning you can get it so on that way that you know that you will get many mentors but especially that other i had that actually a few mentors who helped me to get where i am and that other i did you're actually constantly sick for advice from the right people because as I'm building the company, even though it's natural to me, I build multiple companies and sold it, but still that if I'm building, you know, that's actually half a billion, billion dollar, five billion dollar company, you need to have a different level of advice. And obviously, you need to have those kind of mentors. Well, I want to, I'm going to back up on that story because you said something

Starting point is 00:11:00 I was a little more, a little interested in, which was number one, what was the book? Do you remember? Right. Yeah, I don't remember. I think it was maybe think and grow rich. or something like that one of those kind of book was there but it was very very eye-opening well here's well here's the second question to that which was what do you think it was about you that didn't make him just say this kid's a bullshit artist and move on to the next person why did he make the effort to say okay i'm going to take this as a learning lesson and continue to mentor this kid what do you think it was that i think it was that other i was you're actually genuine guy I was, you know, kind of, but, you know, never really understood the value of, you know, reading the book.

Starting point is 00:11:40 And that is also so funny, I used to read many books in India because, you know, I went to the great school and all those kind of things. And then I went to Dubai and I lived in Dubai for four years. And I can tell you, Dubai probably I read maybe three or four books in total in four years. So probably I lost my habit of probably, you know, reading the good books. but when this that actually I came in over here this guy probably seen the talent in me but probably thought that the other I need a little bit slap in my back I guess yeah there's little lessons it's funny I have a couple little idiosyncrasies that I use in my companies like for example if I'm interviewing for a position here and I know when the interviewee is coming in I had the

Starting point is 00:12:26 receptionist take one piece of paper crumpled up and set it right outside the front door on the ground and I want to see if they step over it or not it's these little things like that absolutely yeah I think the truth of people lies in the fringes and not so much in the resume and I try to get as good a view into the peripheral as I can so that's so I can see why he would probably call you on that and maybe push you in the next level so you read 50 books a year what's your method for absorbing information like that so it's so that in actually I used to do, maybe I read 25, listen 25, you actually audio ball at the time, remember that one we used to do.

Starting point is 00:13:08 Nowadays, you know, you actually transition from books to more kind of podcast and, you know, that one, our consumption has changed. Still, I tried to make a habit because, you know, we become habituated to our, you know, smartphone. So somehow you tried to put it away and, you know, try to read actually physical book. But, you know, that either way, either you listen or you, you know, read basically, but somehow it gives you, now, obviously, now I'm at the stage that it is actually went down of the 50 books, probably went down to 15, you know, 20 books, but still you need to keep yourself up to date because there's always

Starting point is 00:13:44 you can learn new style. Are there any of those books that you go back to? Yeah, absolutely. So that other, I tell people about, you know, should think and grow rich. I ask, you know, actually good to great or, you know, actually build to last, you know actually jim collins those are some of the guiding principles uh that are you know that all of my hiring uh you know actually you say it about hiring and it is you know i use that one literally every day what actually jim collins says right it is a who before what normally we you know that other you know should come up with the you know actually job description and try to match that one with person he said no no no it is other way around if you hire the right guy then devil figure

Starting point is 00:14:26 out what to do, basically. That's been saying that you have a certain job requires a certain qualification, but end of the day that actually whenever I hire, it is all about people. And I guess that, you know, yes, you need to have systems and processes, but I learned very earlier on, it's all about people, people, people. Yeah, that's a shift that I made in my businesses a while back when we went from, you know, because some of our businesses are pretty niche and there's not a lot of people that work in those industries. And when you hire people that are available in those industries, they're available for reason. And so we're like, okay, no more industry experts. Let's just hire the smartest people we can find and we can teach in the industry. And you can teach a smart

Starting point is 00:15:09 person anything. You can't teach a lazy person to work hard. No, that other. And that and that other the idea also, the another one, John, is that the other, you know, I tell people also, I don't want to build the horizontally very fat organization you want to have that are the small number of people but highly paid and highly highly educated basically that's where the money is that you want to hire the people those are extremely talented you know pay them way more than the average basically you know somebody said to me very earlier on uh if you will pay peanuts then you will get monkeys so you need to decide that's that's very true When you're building out your teams and you're trying to create culture and your

Starting point is 00:15:55 companies, what do you do to make sure that the culture is steady and creates an environment where people want to stay? So that is actually very, very important question you ask. And this week, actually, I was at the CEO meeting in Orlando and we talked about the culture. And so I said that, you know, that actually one of my, so that so far we are in, in your 10,000 square feet office over here in the transaction Miami. And we are feeling more tight. So I'm, you know, actually negotiating, you know, actually 30,000 square foot office.

Starting point is 00:16:30 But at the same time, you know, I was thinking that I might be needing some more. Also, that even though we are in action Miami, our 60% client are in California. So, you know, they are in your next to Pacific time zone. So, I guess if you're going to do taxes, you know, fish where the people are getting taxed the worst, I guess. No wonder, no wonder, right? Help us, help us. So, so, so, so that actually, I said that actually, what if I build the, you know, that they're more kind of, you know, remote team in, you know,

Starting point is 00:17:04 actually Pacific time zone, but the one of the concern I had, the biggest concern I had, I was not worried that if they are remote, they will not work because at the moment I have a few people remote that maybe, you know, around 20 people are remote and, you know, their performances, equally same. So I do believe, again, that boils down to the first principle. If you hired the right people, irrespective, they are sitting in front of you or they can be anywhere. They will produce, basically, so that other. But my worry was that one, that if they will remote, they will not get the culture aspect, basically. So that is what was my biggest worry, is that because the kind of culture we build in office. And that, by the way, John, if you are going to ask

Starting point is 00:17:50 me, Neil, how did you do that one? I don't think so. It's my smartness. It just happened. In a certain time, you get lucky. And, you know, if you, if you had hired the right people, it just happens. So it's a lot more fun. But now I build it. Now I understand the value that I want to give this one. I don't want to lose this one. So that was my worry that if I build a remote, I will not have. And that this, that actually another CEO gave me the idea. He said, Neil. He said that I run 175 people company, all are, you're actually consultant, and all of them are remote, and our culture is as powerful as it gets, basically. Yeah, that's so interesting because, like, you know, Simon Seneca, and I subscribe to this, too,

Starting point is 00:18:29 who says, you know, the magic is in the hallways, that the magic is in the hallways, how they interact with each other. And I just, man, I know with COVID, we went to a work remote thing, and I think a lot of the big companies are calling people back to the office now because they're feeling that loss. So that's really exceptional that you guys have been able to maintain that. Let me ask you this. Is there a metric that shows your turnover lower on in-office employees versus remote? No. It is, it is, it is the same because that other, as long as you take care of the people, so that actually what I did is that other we, you know, that they hire more kind of, you know, that an actual VP of culture, basically. And that person is more like a relationship manager for

Starting point is 00:19:12 internal style how we have a relationship manager for a client who works for a client but this is you know checking on you john you are there so john how are you doing you know how is your day going anything that you need from office any constraint you know any anything workwise you know hr side anything uh you know that i'd invite to the office for a week when come over here set up some dinner with appropriate people uh you know get on a boat you know that actually company on a boat you just you know take them over there or something so in that one even though that person is far that person feels that hey i'm you know more kind of actually integrated yes i'm that value you know that i know this people and so on so forth so i personally don't see but that's been said

Starting point is 00:19:57 certain position you can have a remote and certain you you actually cannot so that other we made a conscious decision so we understand this position would work remote and which position needs to be office. So that actually certain that are actually position like RM for our, you know, client, you know, actually relationship managers, we want them in the office. You know, some of actually senior advisors, you know, we want them in that other office, basically. So that certain position would work in office, certain position can be able. How do you balance your old school 12 hours a day with the new workforce freedom of work time philosophy? Is that something you wrestle with with yourself or what do you, how does that work?

Starting point is 00:20:39 No, because that other, I think it is, again, balls down, so if you hire the right people, they will figure it out. So that in fact, in our office, there is no micromanagement, there is no bullshit, there is no, you know, that are the fluff, either you're with us, you're actually creating value and, you know, making lots of money for yourself and, you know, that actually making money to a company and you're with us or you're not with us. So that we don't ask them, but they will know that other people are working hard. You know, other people are actually creating that other, you know, actually that kind of value. So essentially, system will reject you, you know, so I don't need to let that person go. The office will reject it. So that person will, you know, get out quickly or, you know, office say that the nil, that actually home did you hire, you know, those kind of stuff. Yeah, I heard an interesting concept the other day about the difference between outcome and output.

Starting point is 00:21:32 And a buddy of mine runs his stuff and he's like, everything we do is on outcome. Like, I don't care what your output is. Like, I don't care if it, if it takes you three hours to do something or 14 hours to do something. All we care about is the outcome. And as long as the outcome lose the needle financially for the company, then we're good. We don't care when you come and go. I don't care what you do. I'm just, everything is based on outcome.

Starting point is 00:21:54 Absolutely. And that actually what you said, John, that I learned in my, you know, school in my, you know, management class is the responsibility and authority is a two side of a coin, basically. So meaning if you are giving somebody responsibility, then you need to give them authority as well, right? It doesn't work one way. So meaning if you are expecting somebody to work hard, and that guy or that girl has a right of your actual flexibility as well.

Starting point is 00:22:25 So you know, if you're just to work from home or you say, hey, look, I'm feeling a little lazy. I'm going to go to office 11 o'clock today. That's fine, just, you know, they can actually figure out. As long as the outcome is the same, I don't care. I don't care, you know. I'm assuming that all of your employees are incredibly empowered to solve problems as they come up on behalf of the company. That's not obviously something you have baked into your culture, I'm assuming.

Starting point is 00:22:48 Absolutely. So if you look at even on our, you know, your website page, you know, we're, you know, recruiting or, you know, your career page, you will see word. It's all of our people carries the designation called PPS. It's called Professional Problem Solver. So we call them they are professional problem solver. We get paid, right? You know, I think it was a Jim Ron said that when you get paid in a marketplace in a direct proportionate that problem you solve.

Starting point is 00:23:17 So if you want to get paid more, solve the bigger problem. So that's what it is. So it is the same that our philosophy is that we get paid to solve the people's problem. So the same way they understand that they are here because they are solving the problem. So yes, that they are problem solver, and that's why they will be here. Well, let's talk about people that work for you that give you problems. And I don't know if this has happened to you, but in this day in the age of social media, where everybody gets to have an opinion on everything all the time on their social media,

Starting point is 00:23:49 do you guys at your company have some sort of a social media clause to protect your brand based on views that may not align with anybody? And have you ever had to enforce that? So so far, no, that other... Lucky you. We don't have any policy, but again, that we are not that big as well, right? 60 people, it's not that big that once you become certain size, it's going to come. But at the same time, I'm of the opinion that other, you know, that other you should have a freedom up to some extent to, you know, express yourself.

Starting point is 00:24:25 You know, that is what this country is all about. Yes, you need to be mindful and you need to be. very sensitive but at the same time it is okay a similar way even i'm okay sometimes you know because our kind of firm that you don't get a lot more you know actually google review because our client i'll tell you something that is what you're going to like john so you know that i do have the actual marketing guy who manages that uh you know our ad but i you know i do look at as well and i do understand guess what whoever completes our you know actual calendar booking meaning who schedules the those people never likes our ad meaning they remain totally anonymous and that whoever

Starting point is 00:25:05 likes our ad whoever likes those are never booking to our you know those kind of things so meaning our client are very secretive uh you know they don't put any reviews those kind of things so we don't really care but certain time you know some client are happy or unhappy put the review and that certain time some employee comes to me and say hey nil somebody put you know that other not so nice review i said you know certain time it is a good idea you know because that people should have a right to, you know, post that one, you know. So my, my EA this morning, she was going through my email. Yeah, here's a, here's a, here's a, here's a, here's a spoiler alert. If you send me an email, it's not me reading it. It's my executive assistant, but I do craft responses when I need to.

Starting point is 00:25:44 But she, somebody had emailed this morning and said, you know, one of our brands had a one star review on it. You're talking about hundreds of reviews on our brands and had a one star review and this guy was offering for $300 to remove it. And she came and said, hey, what about this? This seems like a good idea and I was like, no, it's a terrible idea because, A, if you pay somebody to remove a bad review, you're going to start having a bunch, you're going to have a bunch more bad views mysteriously start popping up that they can remove again. But I said number two, I think you kind of want to have a couple of bad reviews because it makes the five star ones look genuine. I mean, if all your reviews are five star, that doesn't look real. Exactly. You need that for people

Starting point is 00:26:19 that are that are nuts in there that said something. And that I for certain time, it is better for you to do business with me and knowing my, you know, that are actually witnesses, you know, that it's okay. Everybody, I think, I think this was Anthony Robbins or something, you know, that he said that whenever I, you know, should work with somebody or indulge into the business relationship, I will have the PI, you know, work on them, you know, that, you know, actually, your actual private investigator will go after that one and say that, I will give you opportunity to give you a response, but I will do that one. So, you know, that's fine. I mean, that people have a right. Yeah, I mean, sure. So that's interesting because your business is,

Starting point is 00:27:00 you know, taxes your business and wealth management's your business and obviously trying to save Californians is a big part of your business from the tax code there. You know, when you have such a business like that, that's so niche, you said like you're running online like Google stuff, but what's your biggest driver of business? Is it referral? It would have to be, right? It is a referral. You know, because we deal with a very small number of people, right? So So we, that I said to you, we are almost 60 people. We are just probably across the 500 client, basically. So you're dealing very small number of clients, you know, highly, highly educated, you know, very highly paid people you're dealing with that one.

Starting point is 00:27:39 So it is a majority time we get the actual referral, but at the same time, you need to do some, you know, advertisement as well. So I think that's where we do Google, you know, LinkedIn, you know, that's actually matter. We do some here and there, small, small stuff. So you spend a little bit money here and there. How do you, so when you're so niche down on high net worth clients, which obviously that pays very, very well. I mean, tax preparation for those people. I'm assuming when they come to you, you go back and recast old returns to look for places

Starting point is 00:28:11 where they made mistakes. And I mean, are you doing that on a fee basis, an hourly basis? Are you doing that on a percentage of recovered funds? I mean, how are you, how's your business structured in that aspect? Right. Yeah. So in our industry, there are, you know, actually multiple ways you can do something called hourly, something core value, you know, actual value pricing, basically. So that ours one is kind of hybrid.

Starting point is 00:28:34 So what we do, that we will give you certain, you know, actual bundle pricing. So you are our say that actually personal CFO client and we will charge you based on your complexity or the opportunity, the X number of dollars, basically. And that at a certain amount we will have out of scope work. So let's say you come to me. And you said, Neil, I do have actually multiple companies, but I do have partners and I'm not sure they would be ready or this one or that thing or that I like my CPA. But on my personal side, I make $5 million. I'm paying too much in taxes. I would like to do something.

Starting point is 00:29:06 So we will do the personal engagement with you and we will put the other work as out of scope work, but the hourly basis. So meaning so that we work with you and you say, Neil, you know, that actually working with you, looks like, you know, I want you to take over my business as well. well. I want you to do my quickbook. I want you to do my, you know, this kind of thing, you know, entity planning or this one or that thing. So those are the out of scope work. So we have the attorney hours that are actually we charge, you know, actual CPA hours we charge. So those are hourly based, but otherwise we would be able to give you, you know, actually bundle pricing, basically. So you pay one price for one year that is engagement, irrespective how much you save. But, you know, actually, whenever you have our client, you are going to save many fold than what

Starting point is 00:29:48 you are paying. That's why. Otherwise, we will not take you as a client. If you are not helping you save lots of money many fold and what you're paying to us then probably you don't need us you are you know already dealing with somebody what's your what's your plan to scale you're at you said 500 clients now 60 people you're growing what what's your i mean do you i mean are you going to have a hockey stick moment do you think or do you think it's just going to be a steady incline no that hockey stick moment i think the way we are that uh there you know that actually personally there's a lot more opportunity uh that what we are doing and we can see the demand and people needs it, you know, those kind of things, basically. So I think we are having the

Starting point is 00:30:25 hockey stick moment. So if that everything goes well, who knows, you can take this baby to public in, you know, that other four or five years. And that reason I'm saying public is generally professional services firm do not go to the public. You know, there are a few, you know, handful, but, you know, the big four, if you look at, they are still, you know, partner on and so on so forth. So why public reason public is the kind of culture we are building. If that, let's say, PWC is going to buy me, either they are going to fire me after six months or I'm going to fire them. So I would like to run this place. I would like to maintain the cultures.

Starting point is 00:31:01 If I take it to the public, I can, you know, still we have some little exit event and you can have still you can run the place, basically. Is that why because you're so concerned about the cultures? Is that why you don't try to grow through mergers and acquisition like growing up in the firms? Yes, exactly. I'm just going to, I'm just going to grow organically. that's been said, you know, we might buy in a year or two something very complimenting to us. So let's say, you know, you buy some, you actually a billion dollar business. You pay them, you know, your quarter billion dollar, you know, three quarter in the stock.

Starting point is 00:31:33 And so now you are, you know, that's actually, you know, enhancing the value of your entire organization. And, you know, that's what you can do. But otherwise, the normal accounting or wealth management firm, I would never buy them or never merge with them. Yeah, because if you had an interest to go to go, public. I mean, rolling up like businesses into a SPAC, even though that's lost its shine a little bit, I think that's still a vehicle that can make that happen. When you're dealing with people that need tax help, right, when you're looking at that, what's the biggest

Starting point is 00:32:06 mistake that you find that they're making if you had to just say one? So most people, so I think we can put the people in a two category. One is a high W-2 earners, basically. And that when I say High W-2 earners, meaning, you know, anybody making more than $2 million in that way, W2, basically. And that other, you know, actually California, your actual technology firm. Terrifying. Terrifying. You don't eat that much money on W2. No, no, absolutely.

Starting point is 00:32:31 So that is what is actually one bucket. Other bucket is obviously very successful, small business owners, right? So let's go over the high W2. The mistake, it's not essentially a mistake, but they've been brainwash by their CPA or the general public that nothing can be done because you're a high W-2 earners. So nothing can be done. So that's wrong. In fact, we can do magic and we can, you know, that help you quite a bit in terms of reducing your taxes. So I think that is what one mistake you see. And the second mistake is on the very successful small business owners. I guess they are also somehow stuck with

Starting point is 00:33:16 a smaller stop. So in their mind, the deduction, meaning, you know, hiding more people, spending more money on advertising or some equipment or, you know, actually, Augusta Rule or that are the actual home office deduction or, you know, business mail or business travel or, you know, those kind of things, basically. But there are so many other strategies can be done, which is very high in, obviously, that it requires lots of efforts and you require a really smart group of people behind you, basically. But I think that is what the mistakes we see normally. And then actually, when they come and, you know, there's an aha moment, the curse.

Starting point is 00:33:52 He said, you know, that actually most of the clients say, Neil, Gus, I would have met with you five years back and how much I would have saved, you know, that certain time. But, you know, that is all good. But I think that is what the mistakes we see certain times. What do you think the best vehicle is for tax savings? So that other, there. And I don't mean Range Rover. That's not what I meant if you're listening to this.

Starting point is 00:34:12 That didn't mean go by the wage. Key wagon, yeah, yeah, you know. Six thousand pounds, there you know, or seven thousand pounds, whatever it is. Right, you know, yeah, no, that does actually, you know, we do use many, many strategies, but just to give you some high level ideas, basically, so that we use, you know, kind of depreciation-based strategy.

Starting point is 00:34:32 So meaning so many people has the real estate basically, so that you can use that one, you know, that other, and that you understand the real estate well. Cost segregation, two of my favorite, words. No, exactly. That's the second one we use is we use actually, you know, heavy construction equipment, basically. So it is the same thing. But now that you can get 100% depreciation rather than even with cost aggregation study, it is 20, 25% of the value of the real estate. So here you can get 100%. So meaning you don't need to buy that much real estate. You can buy one fourth. So that

Starting point is 00:35:09 could be very complementing to the real estate basically other things we do is that are the many many strategies based on extra charitable donation you can become very very creative you know especially if you have some highly appreciated assets and so on so forth basically so i think that would be the another strategy we do some of the enterprise risk management based strategy some of the different uh that other you know that are actually entity planning and you bring the different you know tax bracket that actually basically you will have a different level of the exit that are actually planning so these are many many strategies you do but these are some of the big one and that actually these are we are talking those are you know that that actual strategies end up in a millions of dollars of

Starting point is 00:35:55 deduction obviously these are so many normal stuff you're actually putting your kids on a payroll or you know other stuff those are all in actually given basically at what point because i think it's so funny. I run into people and a friend of mine, a guy that came up pretty fast and does extremely well. And, you know, all of a sudden he was writing checks for like $2 million to the escarpment every year. And it was just like, and just he got around a different group of people, us, and they started introducing to people. And then he bought an 80,000 square foot building in Atlanta and started doing all of the things that you should do with cost-segging. And, you know, you can right off the old roof as it comes off in that cost sag and all of these things that we know through real

Starting point is 00:36:39 estate investing. What point do you think, like say your average taxpayer, at what point do you think you write a check to the U.S. government, you really need to get somebody knows what the hell they're doing? I mean, is it the first dollar? Is it 10 grand? Is it 15 grand? Is it 100 grand? At what point? Right. Yeah. So, so, so, so, so, so, so that I personally believe that, you know, that there, everybody should ship, everybody should pay the fair share of their taxes basically because even though we like it or not and that i'm in a business of saving taxes but uh you know that are the majority of the revenue comes from a taxes so if everybody does the tax planning then how the government is going to run

Starting point is 00:37:21 we might not see this kind of road and all those kind of things right so basically so that actually everybody needs to pay it's going to run because of tariffs don't you watch the news Neil, it's tariffs. I personally I personally big proponent of the extra tariff as well and you and I can talk a little bit more about that one, but actually coming back to your question. So normally I would say that if you're self-employed,

Starting point is 00:37:47 then you can do text planning at any level. So meaning even though you make an extra $50,000 from your side gig, you would be able to do that one. But let's say if you are W-2 earners, there's not a lot more things you can do. For the W-2 earners, I would probably say, once you cross $300,000, maybe half a million dollar, then you can start doing some of the real estate kind of things, you know, cost segregation and so on forth.

Starting point is 00:38:14 Basically, obviously, we take client who makes at least $2 million a year, but at least they can use any other advisor and they would be able to help you do that one. Business owner, they can do it at the early stage, but that, you know, certain time I that also tell the people, let's not tell whack the dog. Let's not be your, you know, decision based on only taxes. You know, certain times you are growing the business, just grow the business. Don't worry about the taxes, you know, that is what you can deal with later on. Because if you're so much focused on the taxes, but if you're not growing the business,

Starting point is 00:38:45 hey, you missed the bus. Who knew, right? How is, let me ask you this, how is AI, how are you using it now and how are you projecting it's going to change your business? Sure. So AI, so that actually, this is what I say. I think it was, you know, actually, Bill Gates said that one, that we overestimate the impact of technology in a shorter run, but underestimate over the longer term period, basically. So I'm a strong believer in that one.

Starting point is 00:39:14 And if you look at the history, you know, Internet, if you look at when it came in and we had Internet bubble and fast forward, some of the companies survive, they are, you know, actually trillions of dollars worth today, right, basically. So I personally believe that AI is really, really big. And that other, you know, even though there's a big hype, I think it is going to go down. But you will see the real impact. Maybe after five, seven, ten years, basically, you are going to see the real winners in the AI and real impact in the AI, unless I'm wrong and you are going to see it sooner, basically. Yeah, I got to tell, I mean, look, I think you're going to see a massive elimination of jobs, low in jobs in this country. I think one of the mistakes I had my friend Michael Ruckman on not too long ago, who is a change, he's a change specialist for major corporations around the globe.

Starting point is 00:40:02 He comes in and helps him a change. And he said something I thought was so smart, which was, if you look at how AI is built, it's Kirk and Spock, let's nerd out and talk Star Trek, right? Because as humans, we start with emotion and we're trying to get to logic. But AI is starting with logic and can't get to emotion. So there's this disconnect. And major corporations are trying to eliminate the lowest hanging jobs from their workforce, which in most cases are the most customer front facing. So you're putting something that is not equipped to have an empathetic conversation with a customer on the front line. And I think the thing for me, it's not even this country that I'm worried for. No, if you look back three, four years ago, the amount of outsourcers that we hired through Upwork that were in, India that would do basic research, basic tasks, all of these things that they were doing for us, we don't hire any of those people anymore because that's all done by AI now.

Starting point is 00:41:03 So, I mean, I think you have a deep perspective here being how you grew up there. What is a country like India do when so much of the workforce is dependent on outsourcing from other parts of the world? What do they do? Great, great point. And that is what I said, this is a good thing, basically. because I, you know, I that also use the word, which is most people don't, so that we use the word AI, which is artificial intelligence, but there's another word is H.I. Human intelligence. So if you look at that one, that it has been said that the human is the God's finest creation. And what is something makes us the finest creation of a God is we have intellect, which is other living creature does not. have, right, basically. So meaning human brain is so much powerful. So far, if we were doing

Starting point is 00:41:58 the menial job, we shouldn't be doing that one. We are capable of doing so much, much more intellectual work. So meaning certain time we become so complacent of doing answering that phone and transferring that phone to the appropriate person or sending them, hey, go here, do there, you know, those kind of thing. That can be done that actually via AI. Even though I must, might feel and that I'm going to lose my job now and I might feel for a moment, hey, AI, you know, should displace my job, but it might force me to learn something new. And guess what? Earlier I was making $18 per hour, but now I might make $60 per hour, $80 per hours. If you look at that, actually, you know, AI factories, if you look at some of the

Starting point is 00:42:42 people, they hire the, you know, electrician, you know, kids from a high school, they paid them $80,000, $100,000, those people train them for the six month and now, they don't need the college degree and those kind of things. So I personally believe that you are going to see quite a bit shift in the actually human intellect, basically. So even though it might make us, you know, actually lazy at the front end, but over the longer term period, and that's the actual reason I'm saying that one, John, and that you might not agree, but if you look at, I will. I have a counterpoint. I have a counterpoint. And the reason I'm saying that one, I was at, you know, actually all in summit that, you know, actually L.A., you know, that other guys, that, you know, they had actually AI summit in D.C., so that other, you know, I was there, all of that one I looked at basically. So that other, all of them, yes, that other, it might impact at the early stage. But if you look at that one, the history shows us that American, you know, that earlier we used.

Starting point is 00:43:50 used to handle the machine, right? Basically, now we came way past. I mean, the same thing in India. And that I laugh about India is that other, thank God, somebody showed us that, hey, this is your computer. And we were educated, and we were able to do the work, basically. Otherwise, if you look at that one, the China at our lunch, basically. So India was a manufacturing economy.

Starting point is 00:44:18 We were very big in your textile and all of those kind of things that are the believe or not Now India import quite a bit stuff from China, so that is essentially China at India's lunch Thank God, just imagine if that somebody would not have showed us computer in India Right, so that I personally believe that this is so as India knows English well as India has a highly educated You know actually people and that India knows the computer I think they will figure out some other work to do, which is more intellectual than, you know, the menial job that at the moment we are outsourcing. Fair.

Starting point is 00:44:54 You know, and I probably have more faith in the people of India to figure it out, honestly, in this country. I feel like, I feel like we're going through this great dumbing down of America almost. Like the birth of social media is making, like there's a movie called Idiocracy. I don't know if you've ever seen it before. It's like a dystopian view of the future. And I feel like every day we're a little bit closer to this. I feel like, you know, people get in their echo chambers and they just want to be tribal and just want to repeat whatever they heard that their favorite pundits said and be, and that's it.

Starting point is 00:45:30 And now you're like, and no offense to the UFC, because obviously we live in Las Vegas and that's one of our home teams, we're about to have a UFC fight, a UFC fight, dudes in cages, beating each other up at the White House. like that is anybody else looking around at this like this is like why this is nuts right i just and all i can think about is that movie diagracy and we just it seems like we're just getting dumber and dumber and dumber in this country and i just don't know what's going to change that you know i'm i'm probably way more optimist about the future than i was you know six month back year back so why what happened right yeah so i personally believe and that other you know irrespective which side of you know actual political view you are in but i think there's a lot more great things are happening uh you know that uh if you look at historically the americans uh even though

Starting point is 00:46:30 we say that you know actually we started that you know this people are not working hard but if you look at the you know globally americans are hardest working people basically right this people they are hardest working people they want to do the right thing i think somebody probably needs to point them uh you know what to work and where to go so i guess that is what is happening so that that i personally believe that other with this kind of you know actually foreign direct investment coming to usa this unaction manufacturing and that other unaction actually whenever we are talking about the manufacturing now the current manufacturing is happening it is all a i-driven it is very very sophisticated basically so it's not that other you know

Starting point is 00:47:10 you would have seen some you know actually funny video that you know that other you know that actually american you know that other doing the that actual manual work no no no this is very sophisticated work we are looking so i personally believe that it is going to change people's mindset when they are going to see the power of that one when you are seeing actually if you look at that one the our growth has improved and that actually whatever the scott beston is saying three three basically so if you are going to see that kind of growth i think a I personally believe that the bright days are ahead of us. Amen. I hope so. I genuinely do. I think that, you know, I genuinely hope that's true.

Starting point is 00:47:52 I'm trying to give as many people a roadmap to save themselves as I can. I don't think, I think waiting around for somebody to come by and teach you a skill set is going to be a losing profession. You need to invest in yourself and do that. And that's part of the mission of this show and a mission of my book that's coming out on November 11th and all of those things. is save yourself. One more question, which is this, which is it's been taught around with that the current administration would like to get rid of income tax. So if they did that, what would you pivot to? So you know what? I worry about that one. So that there, you know, that actually attorneys in my office, they laugh and, you know, that I do believe in the dip down in my heart that, you know, the extra tax court is not going anywhere. It's not going to

Starting point is 00:48:39 happen. Remember that the other, I think the earlier Trump, you know, that one, there's actually one page or tax return. The majority of our client, not majority, but many of our clients tax return are more than thousand pages, basically, more than thousand pages. So meaning we deal with those kind of people. So that other, you know, your point is that other, you know, it's not going anywhere. And that other, you know, actually with the, you know, lobbying effort and special interests, you know, there's a lot more opportunity. But I do worry about that way. That's why our business is very, very diversified,

Starting point is 00:49:16 meaning even though we do the individual tax strategies, but we do for the mid-market, you know, the tax of businesses, even though tax goes away, they will still needing the accounting services. They will be still needing the CFO services. You know, we do have actual wealth management arm. So meaning if that other income tax goes away, meaning you have more money to invest,

Starting point is 00:49:38 meaning we have more money to, you know. We have more products to sell you. Yeah, you have more product to sell you. So I do worry about that one because, you know, that John, this is actually a great question. And that other, you know, I tell to the other people in the office as well, I don't take myself as the honor of a company. I take myself as an investor in a company, basically.

Starting point is 00:50:01 So I think from the investors that actually point of view, if you are buying my stock tomorrow, let's say, go to the public, It's IPO, if you're buying, how would you think about NJA while you have another 5,000 company to invest your money, right, basically? So I think in this manner that how the investor will think. So no, it is actually a great question and that I do worry, even though nothing is going to change, but yes, that I do prepare for myself. Well, I'm going to make one assumption about if anybody steps into buy your company,

Starting point is 00:50:31 your balance sheet is clean. I'm going to make, I'm going to give you credit and make assumption that you have a perfect balance sheet. I'm going to make that. Absolutely. Well, Neil, if they want to find more about you and connect with you, how do they do that? Absolutely. They can go to Neil Gisani.com, N-E-I-L-J-E-S-A-N-I-I-com, and they would be able to get all the information from there. And there you go. Well, thank you. It was a fascinating talk. I appreciate your time. And no, thank you for having me. Yes, sir. So if you listen to that today, you know, look, the robots are coming for all of this. It's just the way that it is.

Starting point is 00:51:07 uh who knows go watch ufc fight in the white house who knows what's going to happen but the one thing i do know is you've got to take charge of your own we'll see you next time hey it's john gafford from the escaping the drift podcast and big news my new book escaping the drift is coming out november the 11th you can pre-order it right now at the john gafford.com there are tons of bonuses tons of giveaways get the book if you are somebody that feels like you might be drifting along this is for you If you know somebody that feels like they might be drifting along, this is for you. Available everywhere, all bookstores, everywhere, Amazon, Barnes & Noble's, the whole nine yards. But pick your copy up right now at thejohngaffer.com and get a bunch of the awesome bonuses I've thrown out because I promise you.

Starting point is 00:51:52 I put my heart and soul into this thing. I want it to help you change your life. Pick it up everywhere. What's up, everybody? Thanks for joining us for another episode of escaping the drift. got a bunch out of it, or at least as much as I did out of it. Anyway, if you want to learn more about the show, you can always go over to escaping the drift.com. You can join our mailing list. But do me a favor. If you wouldn't mind,

Starting point is 00:52:17 throw up that five-star review. Give us a share. Do something, man. We're here for you. Hopefully you'll be here for us. But anyway, in the meantime, we will see you at the next episode.

Escaping the Drift with John Gafford - Navigating Tax Strategies and the AI Revolution with Neil Jesani

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