Escaping the Drift with John Gafford - Unlocking Purpose and Resilience: Insights from Paul Epstein on Fulfilling Lives and Career Success

Starting point is 00:00:00 I will 1 million percent tell you that the most important, I want my kid to have two things, happiness and a killer work ethic. That's it, dude. Like if we check those two boxes, the rest of it, I hope he just, he plays in this playground of life and anything else, we're playing with house money and bonus points, happiness and a killer work ethic. And now, Escaping the Drift, the show designed to get you from where you are to where you want to be. I'm Jon Gafford, and I have a knack for getting extraordinary achievers to drop their secrets to help you on a path to greatness. So stop drifting along, escape the drift, and it's time to start right now. Back again, back again for another episode. Escaping the Drift, the podcast that, like the opening says, man, gets you from where you are

Starting point is 00:00:50 to where you want to be. And today on the program, I got a baller, man. I do. This cat is a two-time bestselling author. He is the author of the book, The Power of Playing Offense and Better Decisions Faster. He is a former NFL and NBA executives. Success Magazine said he was the top speaker that gets results. And man, we're going to squeeze some information out of him and into your brains today. Welcome to the program, ladies and gentlemen. This is Paul Epstein. Paul, how are you, buddy? Hey, I'm fired up, man. Let's do this. Good, man. So, you know, first of all, you've got a, you've got a storied history, man. You do. And I always like to start these things out.

Starting point is 00:01:31 Anybody that has a great moniker of success either had the hustle in them as a young kid, or there was some downtime and then they came to the hustle. So as a kid, tell me about that growing up. What was the first hustle for you, man? It got you, got you going. What was it? Yeah. Well, I'm going to unpack it in a couple of different ways because when you say as a kid, what I, when I reflect back on, especially my early days of childhood, I don't know if I would quite land on hustle. I would land on more of what I call the inner game. So like if winning the outside game and that's a lot of where, Hey, where'd you go to school? Where'd you work? And like, for me, 15 years in the NFL and NBA and its career success, all the, the outside,

Starting point is 00:02:10 the trophy, the, the achievements, the accolades, if that's the outside game, what I take more from my earliest days in life is the understanding that it's the inner game that matters. So I can choose happiness. I can choose significance over success. I can choose to obsess about things like purpose and impact and legacy. And it's because my earliest roots, while you can't tell by the last name of Epstein, but I'm a proud Mexican descent. So all on my mom's side, and it's another crazy story, but I also married into a full Mexican family. So let's just say that it happened to be on the 50 yard line of Levi's stadium. And we had a mariachi band. I'm going to leave that one. And if you want to unpack it

Starting point is 00:02:52 later, we totally can. But when I was down in Baja, California, so here I am in LA, it's a short four hour drive down the coast, beautiful place called Ensenada. And I remember the earliest holidays of my life, seeing the smiles on my family's faces and the tacos and the tequila, of course. But what I do remember is we barely had two nickels to scrape together, man. And I never felt more joy, more warmth, more love. So at an early stage, not only do you realize that money is what drives happiness. So that was one insight. Well, I wouldn't have ever eloquently said that as a five, six, seven year old, I saw that. And I said, well, we don't have much, but we actually had what mattered. And then, so that was one piece. And then the other was just like this really humbling

Starting point is 00:03:40 experience, man. So maybe this comes down to the hunger and the grit that you were talking about. When you're in a place like Mexico, even if it's the more developed part of Mexico, it still ain't the US and it still ain't LA. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I actually just mean it from like a beautiful way of like, dude, you got to be scrappy to get what you want, you know, and you got to be able to figure things out and be resourceful. And so for me, understanding that not everybody lives the way that we live in a lot of now we can call it something like privileged areas like we do. That is the lens that I will never forget. So maybe to your point, decades later, it does show up with that corporate hustle and determination and the scrappiness. But at that point, all I realized was how lucky we are to have what we have, starting with the people in our lives. And

Starting point is 00:04:40 that's a little bit of my roots. Dude, that's a very stoic outlook for a five-year-old or a young kid. You know, one of my favorite quotes from stoicism is, a rich man is not someone that has everything. It's someone that wants for nothing. That's somebody that's rich. And I think if you being able to see that as a young kid and not have that, but as a kid that didn't have, the family was not, you know, obviously not poverty stricken and Ensenada is a much different thing. But, you know, if you wanted something as

Starting point is 00:05:11 a kid, I'm sure there was probably some sort of a level that you had to do something to earn it. Hey, this is Steve Simms, and I'm a proud partner of Escape the Drift Podcast with John Gafford, and I've got something for you for Simms Distillery. The community that is based on you, the entrepreneur, giving you the tools to be a better version of you. Visit simsdistillery.com. Use the word escape to get a $694 discount off of the community that you need to be part of when you want to demand a better version of you.

Starting point is 00:05:40 Thanks a lot. Escape the drift and see you in simsdistillery.com. Well, no, hey, man, I'll just call it speed of you. Thanks a lot. Escape the drift and see you in simpsons delivery.com. Well, no, Hey, Hey man, I'll just call a spade a spade. That's the Mexican work ethic. Okay. Like that just is what it is, dude. Like there are no handouts, there are no freebies. And if you want it, you work for it. And even now as a young parent, at the time we're recording this, I've got a three-year-old and a zero-year-old and whether they understand anything that I'm saying, my three-year-old is starting to connect, but trust me, brother, those same things that I was hearing from my folks on the four-hour drive down from LA to Mexico, and then the four-hour

Starting point is 00:06:13 drive up, that's where a lot of these lessons and insights came from. And it doesn't even matter if at the time I understood it, I was still hearing it. It might've taken me decades to apply it and I think that's just a good lesson for all of us to really absorb is somebody's not always ready to receive what you are either saying or feeling but it doesn't mean you're doing the wrong thing if it's not fully connecting like we expect this instant gratification we expect a bear hug we expect the money to come back to us because, oh, I launch a business today and it makes money tomorrow. That's fundamentally false. So like this, this gap of like, you're not going to get what you want on your timeline. Life is not about your timeline. And those are some of those early things that I can really apply. But no doubt, brother, I will 1 million percent tell you that the most important, I want my

Starting point is 00:07:05 kid to have two things, happiness and a killer work ethic. That's it, dude. Like if we check those two boxes, the rest of it, I hope he just, he plays in this playground of life and anything else we're playing with house money and bonus points, happiness and a killer work ethic. Sign me up. You know, it's so funny. You got, I always get to that at some point in this podcast, cause you know, one of my biggest

Starting point is 00:07:29 fears in life is raising worthless kids. You know, it's like, cause they say the hard, hard times build great men and easy times build soft men. And I, you know, I've got a son and a daughter and obviously, you know, when you have kids that at eight years old had an opinion on airlines, um, you know, that, that's something you've got to constantly check. And I think trying to manufacture adversity for them when there is, I mean, my kids are never going to have to worry about going to bed, you know, hungry or the bill's not getting paid. They don't have those concerns.

Starting point is 00:07:59 But we try to manufacture as much adversity as we can. So is that something that, you know, obviously you sound like you had some real adversity growing up the way you did, but are you trying, like, what's your plan to instill that work ethic in your kids? What's the plan? Have you thought about it yet? They're little, so I get it. Yeah, no, trust me. I'm thinking behind closed doors about it a whole lot and it's in the moments, right? It's just the fact of saying for one, there is no single line of communication and you ask for something and I just give it to you.

Starting point is 00:08:34 For me, we're gonna have a dialogue about it. We're gonna have a conversation about it. Like I'm gonna understand why do you really want it? And is it just for safety, stability, security, comfort? Or is there like something where you're like, no, I really want it. Me as a sales guy or me as an entrepreneur now in my current phase,

Starting point is 00:08:53 I always learned this line very early in my NBA days in sales training. Close mouths, don't get fed. Close mouths, don't get fed. So it's not even the, the why behind it. I want to know how much you believe in what you're saying. And that's where it's like, if I push a little, if I challenge a little bit, then I just want to know that this is something that you really want. And now look, I also, right now I sound like a hard ass a little bit. I want to kind of like take a step

Starting point is 00:09:23 back and zoom out because day to day, I'm more of that warm, fuzzy teddy bear and I'm going to love on you. And there's going to be a lot, a lot of that stuff. But where I'm coming at this from is a place where I want you to play offense in life. I want you to be excited about today. I want you to scratch the itch of curiosity. And once we explore curiosity, then there's probably some passions hidden deep down inside of there. And then I want you to attack those things and invest time right now. If you're telling me you love football, baseball, basketball, cool. Then let's experiment. Let's watch. Let's go to a game live. Let's watch each on TV. I'm going to see how you respond to that. And I'm going to say, Hey, do you want to do it again?

Starting point is 00:10:03 Okay. Why? Cause he always asked me why about 50 times a day. So I figured I could ask him why in return, but ultimately, man, I mean, that's kind of my thing is, um, I just want to make sure that like, it's yeah, I think work ethic comes out of it, but I also believe that when we have agency, when we have choice, when we can make decisions, I could totally see myself as my kids get older, falling into a little bit of that Lord of the Flies thing. People think it's crazy. Like, oh, let the kids decide. Right now, I don't care if it's like, what do you want for lunch? I'm saying A, B, or C. And I actually am listening for how do you process this decision? I think one of the best things I did for my kids when they were little like that,

Starting point is 00:10:45 they were really small at five years old. I stole it from Tony Robbins. We bought an old timey time. We bought an old timey time clock, right? With the cars. And my kids had to punch in and punch out to go to school. I mean, kindergarten, they started. I love it. And I'd pay them like a dollar a week. And if they didn't punch in or punch out, I didn't pay them for that day. They're like, but you dropped me off. You know, I went, I'm like, I don't, I saw in the parking line. I don't know if you went to school. All I know is the time card and that time card, you know, this is your job to go to school and punching and punching out. I thought that was a great thing, but it's so funny. Also, you talked about being able to present what you want.

Starting point is 00:11:22 My daughter makes incredible PowerPoint presentations for things that she wants. There you go. Case in point, I have two big, white, fluffy Persian cats and I am terribly allergic to cats. But she makes super compelling PowerPoints. So that's how we got to that point. But I agree. I think it should be more than just, you know, asking, you know, sell it to me to make, make me do this. And I think those are great life skills coming up as well. So you mentioned you got an MBA. So you went to, where did you go to school? USC was my undergrad. Michigan was post-grad exec MBA. Okay. So you, you had the full on, the full on experience. So obviously you are a guy, cause this comes up a

Starting point is 00:12:05 lot in entrepreneurial circles anymore. You're a guy that puts a high value on higher education. Do you still feel that way or no? Great question. And I was taught, and look, my late father, which I'm more than happy to unpack that because he's my hero and I lost my hero at 19 years old. So we can totally go down that if you want to go down that, but literally I lost him at 19 and by trade, he was a continuation school teacher. So a true man of impact, a true man of making a difference, a true man of leaving people in places better than he found them. Because after decades of teaching in traditional school where he felt like he's leaving impact on the table. He goes to a place like a continuation where if you're listening to this and you're not familiar, that's a kid's

Starting point is 00:12:49 last chance. They've been kicked out of traditional school. They landed a continuation. The next stop, if they don't act right, are the streets. So that's, and because he said, look, in this case, you're not just influencing lives. You're for sure changing lives and maybe you're even saving lives in that environment. It's just a higher impact type of place. So I share all that with you because when we think about higher education, I was always told and taught that that is very important and reflecting back. I am not who I am today without my experiences at those places. And I'm not here to tell you that they were perfect.

Starting point is 00:13:30 I'm not here to tell you that all of my friends came from these places. There was one or two or 10 things I learned in the classroom that changed my life. No, no. I am just saying for me, it allowed me to mold myself into who I am today. And that came from not just the positives, but some of the pain, some of the tension, some of the angst, some of the things I felt like, man, I'm just not getting this and reflecting back. Damn.

Starting point is 00:13:57 I wish I would've done that. I wish I would've focused more on people and networking instead of cramming for all the tests that don't even matter. 15 years later, like I, so those are some of the insights that you don't realize till the rear view mirror. Here's my philosophy, not just for my own kids, but just how I think about life. I do not, unless they are core traits, like values or character based, there's nothing that I'm going to push on the younger generation. I'm not going to say I'm right. You're wrong. This is how it should be done. This is how, because look at me. Absolutely

Starting point is 00:14:31 not. If the world is a different place, which of course it will be in 15 or so years, when my kids get to the point of high school and almost college. And if for whatever reason, four year education, a four year university is not in their path, I don't care. I just don't care. It's going to be a different, go ahead. Let me ask you this because my opinion on it is I think A, it's a great place to become an adult. I think in the hustle entrepreneur culture that we live in now, it's like, oh, you got to start hustling right now. And if you're not a millionaire with a Lambo by 21, you failed. There's so much of that culture through social media. And I think college is a great place to become an adult, but more importantly, something that you said, which is

Starting point is 00:15:17 spot on, which is this is where you build your network for life. So for me, and you, you know, you went to Michigan and USC and those are two unbelievable places to build networks from, especially you residing still in Southern California. There is the guys that I know that went to USC are so tied in to so many others that went to SC. It's crazy. I mean, like, you know, my son, you know, you want to go to Florida state where, or, you know, the rest of us went to school, you know, and get drunk for three years. I don't know. I don't know if that's the best use of your time, but unless you want to live in North Florida, but I think utilizing it to grow your network and doing that, it makes it incredibly advantageous. Now, I also think it depends on what you major in.

Starting point is 00:16:03 I think, you know, you, you know, I think, I don't know necessarily that I would say an MBA is going to be that important in the people that I know now, a lot of them that have MBAs say, I don't know, you know, undergrad in finance, undergrad in accounting, and then a law degree to me is ideal because then you don't have to be an attorney, but you can do anything. And, you know, I'm the son of an attorney. So I grew up in a law office. And I just think every single guy that I know that has that combination, guy or woman, that has a finance or accounting undergrad with a legal degree on top of that, you can literally do anything.

Starting point is 00:16:36 I mean, anything at that point with that combination. Yeah. And here's the reality. Context always matters. So, all right, I'll give you two scenarios. One, let's go the business route and one, let's go the non-business route. So my last response of ending with, hey, if my little guys say that they don't want to go to a four-year university, I don't care. When I say I don't care, there's a very important caveat to that. And that means that they have found something that they have so much passion for and they have their gifts and their talents and their skills and their abilities. And if a four-year university is not going to advance, accelerate that, then you know what? We can always focus on building a network in very creative ways. And there's extracurricular ways and there's clubs and there's memberships and

Starting point is 00:17:20 there's just places. And at the end of the day, my job is to surround us with people that we're all just, without keeping score, adding value to each other's lives. Some are going to help you in your health. Some are going to help you in your relationships. Some are going to help you in finance. So my job is to find good-hearted people to surround my family with that we can all level up together. So that's part of what I'm putting on my shoulders. But now with the business side, I think you bring up a great point because sure, does an MBA add value? And the honest answer is it depends,

Starting point is 00:17:53 but it also depends on where you land. And that's why I say context matters. San Francisco 49ers, where I spent my last five years in the NFL, I was under two different presidents. The first, his name is Parag. Second, his name is Al. True story. His last name is Guido and he's from Jersey. I could not even make that up. Okay. Guido from Jersey. So we'll just leave it at that. But Parag was a, I don't remember which was

Starting point is 00:18:17 undergrad, which was post-grad. It doesn't matter, but he was a Berkeley Stanford guy. Okay. So his higher ed came from one of those two amazing educational universities. So for him, for him to see those three letters, MBA non-negotiable dude, you could not be an executive at the Niners without an MBA under Prague, Al South Jersey, like dude, high school. I think literally his college was the something of New Jersey. Like it was a school that until I met Al, I'm just like, and you know what? And he is unashamed of it. You're like, they have a great beauty program. Yeah, dude. So, so at the end of the day for Al,

Starting point is 00:18:57 he don't give a damn. He don't give a damn about those three letters. And there's nothing wrong with that either. So had you shown up at the Niners in the Parag era, well, you would have hit a ceiling without these things. But then you show up in the Al era and it's like, hey man, as long as you've got a four-year degree and you're a good person and your skills can add, bam, you're a 49er. And so I think some of that is interesting too. I think we under-index on studying the people side of where we want to eventually spend these hundred thousand hours of work. Like in college, they say, what do you want to major in? All right. And then, oh, you want to be a consultant work for one of the big four. And I'm not saying that doesn't matter to study the industry and to study the companies. It does.

Starting point is 00:19:42 But what matters more is who's my boss going to be? What's the leadership, what's the culture, what's the day-to-day environment? Cause this is going to be where I'm at for the majority of my adult life. And no, I don't need to stay at this one company, but I don't think that we impress upon people who's teaching culture in college, who's teaching leadership, not how to be a boss. These are 19 year old kids. They don't need to be a boss. I mean, what kind of boss would expand your potential? Like how about that lesson in a university? So I just think all these things like soft

Starting point is 00:20:22 skills and people and culture and team. Yeah, we learn them in sports, but we don't learn them in business school. And I've given that feedback to a lot of top programs. So I'll kick it back to you, but that's my soapbox. to connect one-on-one with another human being across the table, that skillset is going to be in such short order from their generation. If you do nothing but have that skillset in an extremely high level, the EQ is almost more important than the IQ going forward. His kids are just head down, texting each other, and they don't know how to talk to each other. And here's the funny thing. Like we're, we're, we're in a moment, we're, we're in a moment of correct, of correcting my son, his behavior, because my son spends way too much time as all kids do, you know, as parents, we try to limit this, but you're just only so much you can do staring at YouTube. Right. And we finally kind of put together this, this issue, which is YouTube talks at you. Every video you watch are talking at you. It's not a, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a communication tool. They're just, you're listening. But what happens is the, these kids are almost getting programmed

Starting point is 00:21:33 to talk at you if you're a real human. So a conversation with my son has gone from like, you know, we, we teach like you have to be interested to be interesting. That's, that's basic how to win friends and influence people. And you know, you got to ask questions, but the questions have now become a quiz show. So it's like, it's almost like there's no questions that get asked unless he knows the answer. It's like, Oh, did you, did you know what Jordan Travis signed for with the jets today? Nobody, I have no idea. It's signed for this. And that's his idea of a conversation is just hammering you with sports facts. And I'm like, bro, this is, it's like being on a show. I'm like, how's your day? Mom, why are you holding a

Starting point is 00:22:13 washcloth over your face? I mean, so just the blatant, obvious things you got to pick up on those cues and take it that way. So I think that what you just said, having those communication skills is going to be clutch. Yeah. And I'll just land the plane on, on what we're talking about in this simple way. I call it a daily scorecard. So I think that a lot of times, especially me as a young sales guy, way back in my career, I measured my entire outcome of a day based on revenue or profitability or growth or any KPI in business that like the company or you are measuring. And I think that's part of it, but here's something that I have developed and I like sharing it out because a it's universally applicable it for any age, any stage,

Starting point is 00:22:57 any culture. And here's what it is. I believe that if we could reflect back at the end of every day and examine three things i call it the principle of e i r e is for experience i is for information are our relationships so at the end of a day what experience did i gain today at the end of a day what information did i learn today at the end of a day what relationships did i build or enhance today? And if we have positive answers to all three on a compounding basis, you literally cannot lose because the beauty of experience is you could have had a crappy day at work. It's still valuable experience. Oh, maybe this is not where I wanna be.

Starting point is 00:23:37 That's not how I wanna be treated. Maybe I hate being an accountant. Cool, bad first date, but at least now you know who you don't wanna go out with, right? Like's still good experience, even though it sucks in the moment. So experience, bam, information. Yeah, a little bit of that one-way communication you talked about, but ultimately, we're all learning machines. We're all growth machines. We're all curiosity machines. So that's information. And then the relationships, look, relationships are currency, right? People

Starting point is 00:24:02 that are rich in relationships are rich in life. And I don't mean that monetarily. I mean that in just the spirit of abundance, man, they're just good people. They're good vibes. They warm up the rooms that they walk into. And so EIR, experience, information, relationships, when I pass along, especially when I do most of my talks and keynotes are to corporate audiences, but the younger, the demographic that I'm speaking to when I do university work or whatever it is, that is one of my biggest insights is start measuring your success based on EIR, not on these external metrics. Well, I think when people reflect in their day, there's not enough. It's so singular to the negative. I think, man, today was terrible. But, you know, again, being able to reflect in those negative moments and see how the lessons you can learn that can affect yourself positively going forward. And most people don't. They just continue to let that ball roll in a negative way downhill. They just keep rolling with it and be like, oh, it's just how it is and I got to do it. So you graduated with your MBA and you were in sales originally, right? Let's talk about that for a minute because obviously

Starting point is 00:25:09 that was something you excelled in. You excelled at that in every job doing these things. So if you had to walk me through the key parts of your sales process, what would they be? What makes you a great salesman? Well, I think a lot of it also starts with the environment that you're in. So I'll give everybody the context because this matters. So in sports, you're either working for a winner or a loser. Are they winning games on the field or the court or the ice? Or on the contrary, are they losing the majority? And I will say this after 15 years in the sports industry, I worked for 14, 14 out of 15 teams that did not make the playoffs in that year.

Starting point is 00:25:49 So in the majority of these seasons, they are losing more games than they win. I had to walk through a lot of fires. I always worked for the underdog. I always was in positions to sell the unsellable. My first team was the LA Clippers. That was circa 2005. Across the hall, Kobe and Shaq were winning championships. We were there in an era where it's, you don't even need to follow the NBA for this to make

Starting point is 00:26:13 sense. When you play 82 games, if you just roll the ball out on the court and say, good luck 82 times, you will stumble on 30 wins. Well, the Clippers won 17 out of 82 games the first year that I was there. So what that leads to plus having toxic ownership and the negative work culture and all this stuff that we now know decades later, but back then I'm an entry-level sales guy. Decades ago, ESPN called us the worst brand in sports. And then the front cover of Sports Illustrated, my second week on the job, it had three Clipper fans with paper bags over their heads. And one of them said, just shoot me.

Starting point is 00:26:51 And I had to sell that. The front cover of Sports Illustrated said, worst franchise in sports history with a guy that said, just shoot me for being a Clipper fan. And look, I started with 12 people. I was one of 12. It almost felt like a fraternity pledge class, if you will. I was the only one to make the third month on the job. And here's why I really studied this, because telling my story is cool. But I think the insights on how it's universally relevant decades later, that's the real power right there. So what I realized early on was, in a season where we only won 17 out of 82 games.

Starting point is 00:27:27 And now your fan base is negative, toxic. They drop F-bombs at you when you cold call them during dinner. I mean, like that was just a daily environment. If you got rejected 99.9% of the time, you were actually good. You were winning. Okay. And so in that environment, what I learned, and this was channeling my mindset and channeling my energy, the losses were never my fault, but they were always my responsibility. What I mean by that is if I'm talking to you and you're listening to this, anything bad that happens to you, it may not be your fault, but it becomes your responsibility. The way you respond, the way you react, your mood, your energy, your attitude. So that process of building resilience and having that mentality that the last play or

Starting point is 00:28:18 the last day or the last call is already done. So I was able to kind of just put this armor on and say like, look, I get it, but I got two choices. I could either be a kid in a candy store and work in a dream industry like sports and deal with the negative toxic energy and deal with the losses and deal with the F-bombs. I could do that, or I could bounce. And I will tell you this, out of the 11 people that left that original pledge class, where I started as an entry-level sales guy in 2005, none of them ever got a second bite at the apple to get into sports. So I wonder if they, I'm just going to put it out there. Do you die with regret? Do you die with regret for like, man, I could have just channeled this more positive, more hopeful, more optimistic, more high belief energy, or damn, I became a product of my

Starting point is 00:29:12 environment. And sometimes you don't get a second shot. And that was, go ahead. I'm going to slow you down a little bit because I want to, because you said something that's really, really tough, which is, you know, for for me when i talk about sales it's like i always say you've really got to believe in what you're doing if you don't believe in the product and you don't believe in what you've got it's really difficult to do a good job because you're always you're going to be at odds with yourself yeah always as you say things so you've got a product that you know is absolute

Starting point is 00:29:44 dog shit just for sure for sure so do you start looking at it as, well, this is an incredible value against the Lakers? I mean, how do you build value in your mind for that product? Yeah. Here's how, all right, I'll take you inside the trenches of what a sales call sounded like. And then I want to talk to you about a constitution because this, to me, this constitution that we created and yours truly created, it applies to everybody that's not even in sales. But here's how I sold a lot. And it led to a few different promotions at the Clippers from entry-level sales to senior sales and then eventually to manage the entry-level sales group. And that's where the constitution comes from. But what I took from that was you have to find common ground.

Starting point is 00:30:29 What I could almost guarantee you is I'm calling somebody that's not a Clipper fan. But what I could also almost guarantee you is I'm calling somebody that is at least a lukewarm basketball fan. Because here they are, I get their name from a list that they came out to one game, likely to see the other team, likely it was the Lakers. I gotcha. And my job was to upsell them into a package or season tickets or whatever, corporate suite, whatever the fit was. And so what I did, I found the common ground. I went through the questions that would get down to an emotional level. I went through the questions that would get down to an emotional level. I focused on the experience over

Starting point is 00:31:10 the outcome of the game or the fandom of a particular team. And so when I would realize, so you come with your eight year old son and your five year old son, who are their favorite players? Bang? How do they become fans? How often you come? What what do you like to see? Hey, have they ever met the players? Have they ever gotten the backstage pass? Have they ever this have they? Oh no, absolutely not. And then you just keep on extrapolating it.

Starting point is 00:31:30 And I found the common ground until the point where I could say so unequivocally from this call, from this meeting that we're having, you and your family are diehard basketball fans. Like you are, how awesome would it be if you could be four rows off the court? And then I would just continue to paint the picture, paint the picture, paint the picture. And then it is possible. And here's what that looks like. And you're going to get to see Kobe and Shaq twice a year, and you're going to get to see Yao Ming and you're going to get to see all good. And so that literally was about finding the connective tissue.

Starting point is 00:32:10 What's really fascinating is, and I do at some point want to come back to that constitution, but I also learned this lesson from my second NBA stop, which was in New Orleans. They were the Hornets at the time. Now they're the Pelicans. So in the South- So- So- Go ahead. Were you working for Mickey Loomis at the time no no it was uh pre the saints and hornets were not owned now it's the same owner it was not the same ownership group back then but great question though yeah great question mickey's a good friend mickey's a good friend of mine so that's why i asked dude like we've been in the same room a million times and

Starting point is 00:32:41 but this was post my time at the then Hornets. So here was the situation. I'll tell you a funny Mickey story in a second. Keep talking. I'll tell you a funny story on Mickey and Mick. Yeah, no, no, for sure. Here's the cool thing about my experience in New Orleans. So in the South, football is king. And so it's almost like a religion, right? Like it's football, there's NFL, there's college football, and there's a chasm into whatever's next NBA included. And so we were in a situation where the former owner, Mr. Shin of the Hornets comes down with cancer. He's no longer able to 365 operate the franchise.

Starting point is 00:33:17 So then now late commissioner of the NBA, David Stern took over stewardship of the franchise and sends down his five best lieutenants, his team marketing and business operations unit. And basically it was a save the franchise type of year. He said, this is the least economically viable franchise in the NBA. And if we don't get to number one in season tickets, which was almost like a death sentence, like you don't go from last to first in one year. Team was not that great. But he put that ultimatum on the team knowing that he probably privately wanted to move the team out of New Orleans. While that was never said, that's certainly how it felt. But hey, I'm going to

Starting point is 00:33:55 put my lieutenants down there so at least we could say with a straight face, we gave it a shot. I do remember this because this is... Okay. Yeah. I remember all this happening. Yep. This is not Pels. This is Hornets. Yes. Okay. This is Hornets. And this is how it connects back to my Clipper sales days when I said, find a common ground. Because if we would have been trying to salvage the franchise through selling basketball and selling fandom of the Hornets, I promise you the New Orleans Pelicans do not exist today in New Orleans. So we would have lost a team. So what we did, we asked ourselves, so if you don't care about basketball,

Starting point is 00:34:30 because you've always heard this line, right? Tell me you love me. Tell me you hate me, but don't tell me you don't care because I don't have a want to fix apathy. And in the marketplace, there was apathy at that time. So we had to go broader and make it bigger than basketball. So then we said, what does a new Orleanian care about? Well, unlike where I'm from LA, where it's a lot of transplants, I would never tell you that LA has a tremendous amount of civic

Starting point is 00:34:53 pride. Never would I say civic pride in Los Angeles in the same, we just have too many transplants and too many distractions and things to do and all that. But in New Orleans, 11 out of 10 civic pride. A New Orleanian loves their city. They love the food. Let the good times roll, the jazz music. There's an identity to that place that is rare. And so we said, oh, so they care about the place. They care about being a New Orleanian. So you create a campaign called I'm in. This is not about basketball. It's about pledging your support for the franchise. Two people at a time, a family of four, a company of 50. I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, we pulled all the celebrity chefs, all the celebrities from jazz,

Starting point is 00:35:38 all the celebrities to say, Hey, who's in who's in who's in it was a massive campaign. And we did the unthinkable. So when you reflect back and now obviously we salvaged a franchise, that I'm in campaign was not about basketball. It was about civic pride. And that same connection point is the same thing I did at the Clippers. I just had to find in a private sense for the person on the other side of the phone. So if you don't care about the Clippers, then what do you care about? And now I have a puncher's chance if I can connect what you care about to what I'm offering. Yeah. Some way, somehow. Yeah. It's so funny because what we do here,

Starting point is 00:36:16 we do 4,000 residential real estate transactions a year here in my company. And very few, none of those are about needing a place to sleep. Yeah. It's, it's about, it's about growing your family. It's about that. It's about not remembering your kids are gone when you downsize. It's about leveling up in status in a community. It's about so many other things and very little of it is actually about having a place to sleep. So yeah, I love that. What was the constitution? I want to come back to that. What was that? Yeah. So based on the time that we were at the Clippers, you had to beg people to work there. And so one of my favorite memories, because it was, frankly, it was the biggest challenge of working there. It was not dealing with the negativity of the market. You kind of

Starting point is 00:37:01 developed some thick skin over the years for that. Well, it was finding me as a recruiting sales manager. So now I'm in positional leadership. And I remember that we couldn't fill the roster of sales folks quick enough if we did one-to-one interviews. So we had to cast a wider net and do group interviews and do like five sessions in a day, five days in a row. And maybe we find a handful of people in that whole time. And so begging is not that far off from what we had to do. But I do remember this,

Starting point is 00:37:29 the entry-level sales program at the Clippers was six to nine months. So basically come be a phone banger. You're going to make a boatload of cold calls. And if they only the strong survive, if you can be effective at this job, what I said is, if you give me these three things, which are the constitution, I will take care of you the rest of your career, whether this opportunity works out or not. And they said, okay, so what are the three things? And I said, all right, it's a constitution and you're going to sign on the dotted line and you're going to commit to work ethic, positivity and coachability. You give me those three things. You signed this constitution. I will take care of you for the rest of your career, whether this opportunity works out or not. And people looked

Starting point is 00:38:11 at me funny, like, wait, hold on. What about the goals? What about the metrics? This is sales. What about the performance? And I said, don't worry about that. I'm only going to offer you the job if I think that you can exceed expectations. Because we all know this. I can train you up in the skill, but I can't train the will. And my definition of will was the work ethic, positivity, and coachability, because I don't have a wand to make you work harder. I don't have a wand to keep you positive in what I know is going to be a negative and toxic environment. And I don't have a wand to make you obsess about getting 1% better every single day in other words I cannot coach care I'll repeat that I cannot coach care so I found people that through daily example and role modeling of work ethic

Starting point is 00:39:04 positivity and coach ability. They signed a constitution. They committed to those things. The majority of them ended up thriving in the job. Some didn't, but they still did those three things. And I'm still to this day serving as their mentor, a coach, an advisor, a friend in many cases, because they upheld their end of the bargain. And that was the constitution. And this isn't just a feel good story of people. We went from 28th in league revenue before the constitution to second in league revenue out of 30 teams.

Starting point is 00:39:37 This was the Kickstarter for the next 14 out of my 15 years. This was it. It was because of the transformation in revenue and in culture that we had at the Clippers. And I insulated it to my department because the broader culture, it was still tough. But I said, you know what? Let me protect this. Let me create something special under a private little umbrella. We were in a different part of the arena. So it was a little bit easier to control the environment. And the constitution was the way that it manifested. Well, let's talk about this because I find that a lot of people that are, as I call it, I mean, escaping the drift is the name of

Starting point is 00:40:12 the podcast. And a lot of people that are stuck in the, you know, drifting along with the currents of life are people that don't have that innate work ethic, that innate bill. So is there something, is there a formula that you have that you can extrapolate that type of behavior out of people? It has to be connected to meaning and mattering. In other words, you used something earlier that I'll double click on. In sales training, you'll always hear about belief, belief in the product, belief in the service. Of course, I think that's important, but I think it's about what's the meaning that you're attaching to the job, to the career path.

Starting point is 00:40:53 And in our case, because the product was so bad, the meaning often wasn't attached to the product. The meaning was attached to the zoom out vision of why do I want this success? Why do I want to grow my career? Why do I want what's next? How much do I love my boss? How much do I love the people that I go to battle with every day? The people to my left and right, that's our locker room. So we found meaning and mattering from everything, but the product. Sure. You probably were a basketball fan. Otherwise you don't, uh, you don't apply for the job, but the majority weren't Clipper fans. On the contrary, they were probably all Laker fans

Starting point is 00:41:36 because it was LA, but we didn't make it about that because you know, when I used to work at career fairs, I remember that people thought that their biggest value prop, the way that they would try to sound the most valuable to me is tell me, well, when I was a kid, I used to watch sports center with my pops. And I'm like, so does everybody in line. And I didn't say it like that because you know, as a warm human being, but like now I'm just like, dude, that's not your separator. That's why you're in this line. You've got to convince me that you can kick ass at the job. You've got to convince me that you could be a kick ass teammate. Watching sports center when you're seven years old does not qualify you.

Starting point is 00:42:12 Okay. And like, so I had to kind of like partially shatter some dreams also of like, cause here's my thing. Remember that stat I said about, I was one of 12 and the other 11 never got back in the industry. Part of my pet peeve was a lot of my counterparts that were sales managers decades ago, they would do whatever they needed. They would say whatever they needed to say to get people to sign on the dotted line, especially if it was a challenging sell to come work for their team.

Starting point is 00:42:37 The problem is I knew that if we were to use a batting percentage, if you go over one, meaning your first job in an industry doesn't work out. If you're in real estate and the first job that you have, you just flame out. Like you fundamentally, it's just a wrong fit. It's a wrong fit. There's probably no boomerang back. Yeah, sure. There's always exceptions. And you and I both know these people and whether real estate or sports, I get it, but that's the exception, not the rule. So I protected people and I said, please don't take this job because what you want to do is you want to work in sports, but you don't want to sell, but we have 40 sales openings and that one marketing opening that is probably a better fit.

Starting point is 00:43:22 You think it's tougher to get that. So you've been given the advice to get your foot in the door through any means necessary. Wrong advice, because now you're going to fail at this thing. And now you're not going to end up where you were supposed to. I'd rather you be an unpaid intern in a vertical that you have a passion and a skillset and a gift for, and you want to grow in and you're going to do the unpaid work in the unseen hours at the early stage. So that was kind of the mentality that we took. So I kind of had to negative sell a little bit just to make sure that we had the right people on the bus in the right seats, of course. It's funny when people come to interview with me, I always ask the same question, which is,

Starting point is 00:44:00 what's the goal? What's the goal? And so many people throw out a dollar figure. I want to make $150,000 a year. That's the goal. And then the follow-up question, nine out of 10 can't answer it. And the follow-up question is always the same as well. It's why? For what? What's the 150 do? What does it do? What does that do? And the people that can't, and so many people can't answer that question. And my answer is normally to those folks, well, come back when you can answer it. Because if you can't answer why you want to do something, the odds on you actually achieving it are very slim in my experience, especially in the real estate industry. You've got to be crystal clear as to why you want to do what you're trying to do. And if you don't know, it's crazy, which

Starting point is 00:44:44 again, you mentioned something which I love also, which is internships. I have known so many people in life that just, but you know, go to college, they get a degree, they start a job that they hate because they didn't know anything about the job before they did it. They had no idea, which is, you know, and look, I get it. My kids are lucky because I got dad, dad could hook them up. But every summer my kids are interning with people that I know that are high performers at some particular type of job that they might have interest in. Last summer, my son interned with the guys that own on V Shred. You've probably seen that app come rolling down your social media with the Vince guy, the super fit. They're the best digital marketers in the world. And they run

Starting point is 00:45:24 their business from Vegas. They took my son in last summer. He spent all summer. This summer, he's going to spend it in law office because he has an interest in maybe be an attorney. Okay. Go see what an attorney does. Let's spend a summer looking through, you know, mundane documents and see if you still want to do this. It's not suits. Nobody's going to walk in, hand you a file and go, this is exactly what I needed. Case closed. That's not how it works. Right? So, but I think exposing yourself through internships to things that you find that might be interesting is a great way to get your foot in the door, A, and then B, see if it's something you want to actually even do.

Starting point is 00:45:58 Yeah. Even in relationships, even a personal relationship. I always joke that you've got to date some crazy to find the one you have to go on some bad dates. Like that's just the process. Or in some cases, a lot of crazy before you find the right one. A lot. Yeah. Sign me up. Yeah. No, you know, you know, what's crazy, man, is like the same analogy I would make for work. I actually make for personal relationships. There's actually a little mini curse in finding really good too soon. You know, I have folks at their first job out of college. Maybe they do get lucky and it is lucky.

Starting point is 00:46:36 They work for an amazing culture and an amazing boss and they get paid $10. But because they're young and they think like a young person, they go across the street to make 11 instead of 10. And now they're in a bad workplace. And now they're just chasing their tails their whole career because they created this up into the right vision. And they are like, oh my gosh, the people magic was at my first place. And it's kind of like meeting the one when you're 16 years old. I don't know if I could have handled that. Dude, or coming to Vegas and winning your first trip here. That is a recipe for financial. Yeah. Dude. Speaking of the one, I met the one in Vegas, man, two crazy kids

Starting point is 00:47:15 Memorial weekend of 2011. So yeah, Vegas, it will always have a special place in my heart. I met my wife on a trip out here with, I was out on, I was out here with some buddies from New Orleans that were on tour and I was out here and I met her out here that weekend and started coming out here every weekend and moved out here about two months later. So yeah. Love it. That's all I, that's, that's all I came to be here. Met a girl. So let's talk about, you know, cause you built this whole community now around the concept. It's on your shirt. It's on, it's behind you. Uh, for those of you watching on YouTube, if I didn't mention this, I would be an idiot. Um, but yeah, this, this, this whole community

Starting point is 00:47:55 behind the concept of when Monday. So let's talk about that. I believe Monday is where all momentum is born. And I also believe not only are we momentum machines, but we're all growth engines, right? Like if, especially if you surround yourself with high performers and high achievers, it's that obsession with getting 1% better every day. And what I have found is that we look for the margins and the edges of what I call separation season. So I don't think that the world needs more TGIF. And by the way, I love Friday as much as the next person. And I love weekends as much as the next person, but that's not where I'm going to separate on a TGIF mantra. For me, what we have to do is go from what many perceive as the worst day of the week and make it the best day of the week. Because when you win Monday, you have momentum to win the week and then there's just this reset button every single week and one of the big things that I've realized because this is really a community not just of high performers and achievers but we all have unreasonable ambition but

Starting point is 00:48:58 when I say win it's not winning financially it's not winning professionally it's winning holistically I want to win as badly in my health and my relationships as I do in my finance and my happiness and my fulfillment and my purpose and my impact, my legacy. I just want to win. And I'm also not obsessed with competing with other people. I just want to be better today than I was yesterday. I want to be better tomorrow than I am today. So that's kind of the spirit of the tribe.

Starting point is 00:49:22 But we had this really cool saying that I learned from not only becoming a speaker, but a massive pain point in my life as this momentum machine and as this growth engine when I was suffering from way too many sugar highs. And here's what I mean by that. If you're listening in, I'm talking to you because we've all been in this situation. You go to this retreat, you go to this workshop, you attend a massive keynote, or you go to the Tony Robbins event, whatever it is, and you feel like a changed person, like this is the best me, and I'm going to shoot out of a rocket ship. And then the following Monday hits, and because you probably were ignoring your inbox the week prior, you're playing catch up and then boss and then spouse and then kids and then life happens. So you get back in the hamster wheel, you get back in the grind, you get back in the hustle

Starting point is 00:50:12 and then tick tock one or two weeks go by and you reflect back on that once inspiring event and poof, it's a sugar high. And I experienced that way too many times and that's on me. So what I said was when I now am going from the audience to the stage, this is my post NFL NBA chapter. And now that I'm writing the books and doing the keynotes all over the globe and all that good stuff, I started this community to ensure that no sugar highs would ever be allowed again. If you meet me at the 50 and you meet our community at the 50, it's because you want to win holistically and you're willing to do the work behind closed doors and in the unseen hours to become the best version of you.

Starting point is 00:50:55 And so when I deliver a keynote, I've got a newsflash. If you bring me in for a keynote and do nothing new or better or different the following Monday morning, you too will have a sugar high. It does not matter how great the speaker is. You might remember what I talked about in four months, but your life is no better or different. And so what I'm doing is I'm creating this 52 week action plan. It's a momentum plan and it's just a free gift from my heart. I call it Monday momentum because it comes with my keynotes, but also I now put it out there for the world to engage because for me, I just said, I just want to surround myself with

Starting point is 00:51:32 people that have the same tenacity, the same work ethic, the same values, the same character, the same hunger, and that's Win Monday. So I encourage anybody that, whether it's me telling you about Win Monday or Monday momentum, or just the overall vibe that we've been riffing on the past 40, 50 minutes. If this is you, all you got to do is go to win monday.win, putting your name and email. And that's it. It's a free gift from my heart. Cause I just want to surround myself with people that are exactly like the two folks that have been having this conversation. So just do winmonday.win and that's it. Yeah, I agree. I'm a member of several high-level mastermind groups. And I started, when I first started going, man, I would come back

Starting point is 00:52:15 those weekends and be like, we're changing everything. Everything's got to change. We got to implement this. To the point where like my staff was like i'd say i'm going to a meeting somewhere else and my staff would just be like oh god just waiting for me to come back and be shot out of a cannon that way because part of i i admit it one of my toxic traits is there's nothing pretty much on this planet that i can hear about that somebody else can do that i don't immediately think i could do too like well it's a great problem to have it yeah it's a great it's a kryptonite but it's also a blessing and you know you know it's both it's both but no no but here's why it's a kryptonite because there's been so many times over the last four years when my core competency and my focus i got you diluted from where it should be because

Starting point is 00:53:03 i'm like no i can just spin this up. And it's just, I'm going to spin this up and it just, this guy's doing it and how hard it could be to do this. And, you know, five seconds of research. And now I've got, you know, now I've got an outsourcer that's building this platform and I'm doing this thing and it's up and I'm going to start the marketing. And I'm like, wait a second, why am I doing this? You know, I did this with, it's funny, but real estate, you know, cause we're in the brokerage business is what we do. And there's, there's a portion of the business called wholesaling. And essentially you don't need a license to do it. You don't need a license to do it. Essentially it's equity stripping is

Starting point is 00:53:34 what it is. And you go into a house, you just say, Hey, I'll buy your house cash. You write a contract and or a signee. And then you walk out the door and then you flip the paper to somebody else and make a spread on it for 10 or $20,000. You're stripping equity from the seller. Well, I got a lot of friends that do this at an extremely high level, but it does not go at all with what I do or even what I believe in the business. And I spun this business up in the first appointment that I went to. I sat down and I'm like, you shouldn't do this. You should just sit on the open market. This is dumb for you. Like, why am I doing this? I was like, stop. At this point, I'd already gone like 10 grand deep on marketing.

Starting point is 00:54:08 And I was like, why am I doing this? Because that's my toxic trait. But that's why I like your, like, let's just be consistent. Let's just do it. Let's just do a nice even keel. Let's take what you're doing and take it to the next level. Let's not try to layer on a bunch of new shit that, you know, is going to distract you from what you're doing. You know, let's just, let's just take you to the next level to what you're doing.

Starting point is 00:54:30 A hundred percent. But look, I don't want to sound like a source or a magic man over here either. Oftentimes when you sound like you have so much conviction and you know that you're building something special, it's because you know what it's like to do the exact opposite. And I suffered. So I'll tell you my kry it's like to do the exact opposite. And I suffered. So I'll tell you my kryptonite. I had the shiny squirrel syndrome, squirrel, you know, especially when you're in a space of passion. And I'm like, chase that, chase that, chase that, chase that. And it wasn't just the money. It wasn't, it wasn't about that. But I just, I suffer from saying yes

Starting point is 00:54:58 to too many things because I just want to serve. I want to contribute. I want to drive impact. But then the problem is it became my kryptonite. Because now that I've over committed myself, I run out of time. And I'm actually, I've got a poor yield on my impact. Because I'm probably spending time in 10 things out of 15 things. And those 10 I should have never been involved with. But I said yes, for whatever reason, I said yes to I didn't want to let somebody down. I wanted to help. I wanted to support. I wanted to encourage. And diluted focus leads to diluted results. We all know that. And so that's, our kryptonites are not that different. But now I made myself a promise ever since I read Essentialism by Greg McKeown. A couple of years ago, that book changed my life.

Starting point is 00:55:40 It got me to stop chasing shiny squirrels. And I now have a rule. Of course, if it's not essential, don't do it. That sounds simple. But at the end of the day, I promised myself that I could only have one. And if I'm obsessed, I can have a max of two big rocks in any given year. And I now have had the same two rocks for multiple years. And I don't plan on changing these two rocks anytime soon, I am a keynote speaker and I'm building the Win Monday community. If it falls out of bounds with those two big rocks, I just say no. I just say no. I started doing the same thing. I have not been on a stage

Starting point is 00:56:16 and the last time I was on stage was probably Clever Summit, probably almost two years ago, because I started saying no to everything because I'm like, okay, I want to get this book done. I want to finish my book. I want to get it out. It is now with the beta readers. However, there's 20 random people. I don't know, reading my book right now, they're going to give notes to her editor, which is going to let me know where it's at. And, uh, and yeah, I wanted to get that done. And then when that's done, it's going to be full fledged back. Everything else.'ve really just been doing my own podcast. I haven't been on anyone else's podcast. I've been doing great stuff.

Starting point is 00:56:50 So by saying no, like I'll give you another example. I'll give you another great example. So a buddy of mine, just by focusing, right? A friend of mine asked me because, you know, I've been running, we run a very large broker chair. We also have vertically integrated completely with title mortgage and everything else. So for the last three years, I've really just been building those companies. I haven't done any personal real estate forever. I've got a team of 14 agents that work directly for me, that handle all my business that I've gotten over the last 17 years, handle everything for me,

Starting point is 00:57:14 but personally not doing a lot of business. So my buddy was like, well, now that houses are selling for 25 million bucks in Vegas, which is still astounding to me. He said, how long would it take you to spin up a, um, a luxury brand again? And I said, dude, I could spin up in 90 days. Easy. I could just rebrand everything, put it back up, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All good. So he's like, all right, I'll bet you 10 grand. I'm like, all right, fine. Let's do it. So I started doing it and spinning it up and it's not hard. And it's something that'll be an asset that I can sell at some point when I don't want to do anymore. But the, here's the, here's the rub, right? So I go on social media and I'm like, Oh, I'm going to do this 90 days, the luxury thing. Right. And I'm still kind of doing it. And

Starting point is 00:57:51 I started going on every day and sharing the journey of, okay, this is what I did today. And this is what I did. And this is what I'm using this and this and this and this and this, and I found that the posting became so distracting that I was like, I've got to stop. I got to stop worrying about posting this shit and just head down and get it done. Just do it. And so now like I'm probably 75 days and I haven't posted in probably 12 days,

Starting point is 00:58:16 but I got more done I think in the last 12 days and in the first 60, cause I wasn't worried about, well, how am I going to do this today? That's going to craft into a social media post which is bullshit anyway didn't matter i mean a lot of people follow me because they're watching those posts but dude that squirrel took me away from what i was trying to get done oh dude my team does all if it's not my family my team runs my social because

Starting point is 00:58:41 the thought process of posting the thought process of what to post. What's my agenda. What's my day. It was exhausting, dude. And it, and also like, I'm just going to be real. It never was my happy place. It was a check box thing. And so if it's that, that's not even good energy that I'm putting out there.

Starting point is 00:58:58 So the content's great and it helps a lot of people, but I had to tell my team, please take this off my plate. If I'm going to post about my kids or my fam, like all good, let me do it. But all this stuff, lock me in a lab, let's film content. And now for the next 60 days, you're set. Like I totally backed off of it about a year ago and it's changed my, it's changed the trajectory of my business, frankly, and my, just my energy too. Your energy. I talk about in my book that people people spend so little thought to the diet that they feed their head like they think like yeah good blah blah blah and essentially most of the shit you're looking at on social media is like eating

Starting point is 00:59:34 doritos and drinking you know coke all day is essentially what you're doing but to your brain and yeah i found if i found like just say do thing. Just audit how you feel after you look at 10 minutes of social media. Like, did my mood improve? Yeah. Am I happier? Am I sad? And I don't know very many people that can answer that question honestly and say, I feel better than I did 10 minutes ago.

Starting point is 00:59:55 You don't. No. You don't. Terrible. All right, man. Well, dude, so if they want to find you, how do they find you? You said the winmonday.win was your site there. Yeah. winmonday.win gets you into Monday Momentum. Now that we've crucified socials, how do they find us?

Starting point is 01:00:13 Well, look, yeah, I'm not, I'm not even going to say follow on social. If you choose LinkedIn and Instagram, all good. But look, winmonday.win gets you into Monday Momentum. And if you're somebody that leads a team, a culture, an organization where bringing in a speaker to fire up the troops is up your alley, paulepsteinspeaks.com, that's the home and the hub for all things speaking, books, you name it. I'm not hard to find, even on social media, believe it or not. So it's all good. I love it. Well, dude, thanks so much for joining us, man. It was a cool talk. I hope you guys got as much out of this as I did today. It was really good.

Starting point is 01:00:46 And remember, man, if you're somebody that's out there that feels like you're drifting along with the currents of life, you got to stand up and you got to start swimming. You got to do something because nobody's coming to save you. Not even Paul. See you next week. What's up, everybody? Thanks for joining us for another episode of Escaping the Drift. Hope you got a bunch out of it, or at least as much as I did out of it.

Starting point is 01:01:10 Anyway, if you want to learn more about the show, you can always go over to escapingthedrift.com. You can join our mailing list. But do me a favor. If you wouldn't mind, throw up that five-star review. Give us a share. Do something, man. We're here for you. Hopefully, you'll be here for us.

Starting point is 01:01:23 But anyway, in the meantime, we will see you at the next episode.

Escaping the Drift with John Gafford - Unlocking Purpose and Resilience: Insights from Paul Epstein on Fulfilling Lives and Career Success

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.