Escaping the Drift with John Gafford - Unveiling the Business of Religion with Chris Ayoub

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

Chris Ayoub, the executive producer behind the thought-provoking miniseries "The Religion Business," joins us to unravel the tangled web of business and religion. Our discussion casts a spotlight on the financial practices of religious institutions, particularly during the televangelist era, as Chris bravely shares his personal challenges and unwavering commitment to truth. His insights lead us into the complex terrain where religion, politics, and commerce intersect, revealing the historical grip religious entities have held on political power to preserve their influence.   As we venture further, we confront the deception that can lurk within religious institutions, where narcissistic traits sometimes find fertile ground in leadership roles. Our conversation critiques the vast resource disparities within religious organizations, where wealth contrasts starkly with unresolved social issues like poverty and homelessness. The phenomena of televangelism are dissected, exposing how vulnerable individuals are often manipulated while personal stories and cultural critiques, such as "The Righteous Gemstones," question the accountability of religious sectors in addressing societal needs authentically.   Transparency is our rallying cry, urging religious organizations to lift their veils and embrace accountability. We discuss the innovative software platform, Broken Shepherds, designed to bring financial transparency to nonprofits. Despite resistance, the courage to advocate for change is underscored, as we explore the cultural pressures that silence voices within religious communities. Our closing reflections touch on the intersection of religion and commerce on social media, encouraging a mindful approach to resource allocation and the broader implications of our actions, leaving listeners with much to ponder about the role of faith in a modern world.   CHAPTERS    (00:00) - The Business of Religion (11:46) - The Deception Within Religious Institutions (22:36) - Demanding Transparency in Religious Institutions (34:07) - The Influence and Corruption of Religion (47:41) - Religion Business and Social Media   💬 Did you enjoy this podcast episode? Tell us all about it in the comment section below!    ☑️  If you liked this video, consider subscribing to Escaping The Drift with John Gafford  ************* 💯 About John Gafford: After appearing on NBC's "The Apprentice", John relocated to the Las Vegas Valley and founded several successful companies in the real estate space.   ➡️ The Gafford Group at Simply Vegas, top 1% of all REALTORS nationwide in terms of production. Simply Vegas, a 500 agent brokerage with billions in annual sales Clear Title, a 7-figure full-service title and escrow company.   *************   ✅ Follow John Gafford on social media:   Instagram ▶️ / thejohngafford   Facebook ▶️ / gafford2   🎧 Stream The Escaping The Drift Podcast with John Gafford Episode here: Listen On Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7cWN80gtZ4m4wl3DqQoJmK?si=2d60fd72329d44a9 Listen On Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/escaping-the-drift-with-john-gafford/id1582927283    *************   #escapingthedrift #chrisayoub #business #religion #financialpractices #televangelist #politicalpower #influence #deception #narcissism #wealthdisparities #transparency #nonprofits #taxexemptstatus #faith #truth #accountability #socialissues #homelessness #poverty #televangelism #exploitation #faithdevelopment #spiritualgrowth #accountability #courage #advocatingforchange #corruption #power #tithing #technologicaladvancement #economicmotivations #socialmedia #visibility #mindfulness #resourceallocation #implications #faithinmodernworld

All right, last question. Who is public enemy numero uno? Who's public enemy number uno? Yeah, if you wanted to, if you had to pin one of the worst defender out there, who is it? Wow. And now, escaping the drift, the show designed to get you from where you are to where you want to be. I'm John Gafford and I have a knack for getting extraordinary achievers to drop their secrets to help you on a path to greatness. So stop drifting along, escape the drift, and it's time to start right now.

Back again, back again for another episode of the podcast that gets you from where you are to where you want to be. And today, man, I got kind of an interesting episode. So this is a little off the beaten path from what we normally do here, but I thought it was interesting because it does tie in to business. And that business is the business of religion. So joining us today via satellite is Chris. say you who is the executive producer of a seven-part mini-series called the religion business available

for streaming everywhere and at the religion business.com so chris how are you man i'm doing good living living the dream brother how are you welcome yeah good glad to have you and good to be here so so this thing man has made some noise you've made a little noise out there with this this docu-series we have yeah I mean, I think any time, I mean, when you look at history, you know, when going back to when Jesus walked into the temple and started flipping tables over and calling out the money changers and saying that you're, this is supposed to be a house of prayer and you're turning it into a robber's dead, right? And the Pharisees and such were plotting his death after that, right? Like, this is a, when anytime you threaten industry, you cause massive disruption and there's a lot of resistance. And I'm just speaking the truth. It seems as though, you know, in the days of the televangelists that we're in now and some of these guys getting just terrible press with, you've got your fifth jet and, you know, the guy in Atlanta that was locking people in his church, I guess, is saying, you can't leave until we raise, I guess, I don't know, we raised 50 grand or whatever that was. It seems like it's getting worse almost, not better. Yeah, I think, I mean, part of the thing that's gotten worse is is, is, my business partner has been working on this for 15 years. He's a two-time Emmy Award-winning filmmaker.

He bought the domain, the religion business, when he was 25, and he turns 41 this week. So, like, that's how long this has been in the making. And he's not a lot of studies. And when you look at, like, any time the religious institutions are about to lose power and such, they cling on a politics. Right. And then they try to shove it down. that way. And you're seeing that recently, it's interesting, the Johnson Amendment, which was put in place so that pastors could not, from the pulpit, endorse candidates or from their official

role. The IRS came out, you know, right around the time of the big beautiful bill, which has quite a bit of money in it for nonprofits, states that, hey, you know what? Like, the IRS won't go after you and won't threaten your tax exempt status. And this concept of the tax. tax exempt status, like, I mean, it's over 100 years old, but like, it's, it's, it was put in place where like the government has, has that control, right? Like, you're almost selling your soul for this, like, for this 30%, right? You're selling it for this tax exempt status so that you no longer have real teeth in this, in this world, right? Because, uh, Christianity is a dangerous thing, you know, religion's a dangerous thing. I mean, if you stand up for what you believe in,

And if you look at what happened to Christ's disciples, it's not a cake lock. I mean, we are where we're at in society, partly due because of weak men, men not standing up and holding a line and speaking the truth. It gets some of the craziness that we've seen in our generation, right? Call it loakness. Call it whatever you want. But it's, you know, lots of unhealthy things. So just from the, in the brief time that I've talked to you already, you seem like a guy

that's, you're religious yourself. It's not that you're anti-religion. I am a follower. Christ. You know, it's so funny, I'm glad you brought up the word religious, because I don't even know what that word means anymore, right? Does that mean, you're a point? You know, you go to church every Sunday and you follow this pastor and you do what your pastor says and you don't, you know, like, is that it? I'm a follower of Christ. And, you know, it's a lot of people say they're Christians. And if you think about it, they'll say, like, I'm a Christian. I believe that Jesus is the son of God.

I believe that, you know, he died and resurrected, and I believe that, you know, he's returning. And I believe, you know, of the forgiveness of sins and salvation and all that. But so does, I mean, the devil also believes those things, right? But what separates it is picking up your cross and following Christ. And like, this is the first time in my life, right? This past, you know, definitely this past year and a half last two years where I've picked up the cross and followed. Christ. I mean, I've put a massive amount of my net worth into this project. I've, I've dealt with crazy threats. You know, I had someone come at me at our, at our premiere in Dallas.

Like, you know, I have security now. Like, it's, it's just, it's just wild, man. So, but it's dangerous. Well, growing up, what, what, what, what church did you go to when you, I grew up, yeah, I grew up Catholic. Okay. Yeah, the nuns beat the crap, beat that out of me. it's a kid too. So yeah, I grew up the same way. The nuns beat that out of me, you know, by sixth grade. So yeah, but, but so you grew up Catholic and now you're just, your Christian is what you go with. Yeah, I've follower, follower of Christ. I've been dialing into, yeah, I'm definitely Christian. I, um, I, um, I've been doing a lot of spending a lot of my time in this, in this concept of like of home churches and checking that out lately. And I've been,

popping in on various ones and seeing and seeing that model. And it's an, it's an interesting model. It's a very inexpensive one, but it really builds great relationships and great community. And they lift one another up. It's, it's pretty cool. So I don't want to assume what the documentary is about. I have not seen it. But when you talk about the business, the religion business, I'm assuming we're talking about mega churches. We're talking about this stuff. We're talking about where the money flows. You're not necessarily talking about the small corner guy, you know, that's trying to, or maybe you are. I don't know. So they all play, they all play by the same rule book, right? And they all have access to the same loopholes. And humans will human. So

the ones that tend to receive a lot of funds and see that humans will human, right? And the money's dark. So we take a look at the system. So religious organizations, so you have the nonprofit sector, right? You have secular nonprofits and religious nonprofits. A secular nonprofit has some level of transparency because they have to turn a 990 into the IRS. A religious organization has no obligation whatsoever to turn a 990 into the IRS. So all that money that comes in, it's dark. And denominations have been dying in the United States and this non-denominational concept, right? We call them a lot of megachurch prosperity gospel. Not that they're one and the same. I'm just saying like that that is a big up and rising thing lots of ted talk type speeches and and not not a lot of

contextual scripture and and then they pound this thing called tithing you know at you 10% 10% and then hey go above and beyond we got to build a new building and all that kind of stuff well all that money is doesn't have to get reported to an external agency and the thing is with the denominations they have some semblance of structure, right? They've got, you know, call it dioceses. They have, they have, you know, they have multiple layers and they have audits and they have, you know, they have governed, a lot more governance. Whereas a non-denominational church or a mega church, if you will, you know, they're often run by a board of directors that the pastor picks. And oftentimes it's a spouse and it's a lawyer. We have one where the lawyer is also the CFO, who's also an ordained minister who allegedly receives a housing allowance. And so what we, so within this system, people have gotten very creative and shrewd, if you will, creative. And I mean, these are not done people at all. They're smart. And they, they found all these loopholes within the system. Housing allowance, for example, is one. Or real estate is another big one. And we take a look at all these loopholes. And then we

explore real world examples where humans are humaning and take. taking advantage of those loopholes, right? So a housing allowance loophole or a real estate loophole where a pastor received, his dad was the head of a church, and they built up a lot of real estate and had about $100 million worth of real estate. And then the dad passes away, put son in charge, and then they go off and sell. And then no one knows where a lot of that money actually went. and then you're dealing with key man life insurance policy on dad that passed away and who was the beneficiary versus who got it allegedly and such. So there's just a lot of place

for abuse, brother, a lot of place. And it's happening like crazy. Everywhere. Well, we were talking before we went live about the percentages of stuff that gets paid out. Some of the stuff you were saying was nuts. So, so Christianity global. in 20 in the number I believe in 2020 for the year was 890 billion given by individual donors and then in the United States secular nonprofits were about 540 billion right so you're approaching 1.5 trillion dollars in this in this industry by individual donors and then you go into now where the the the donations that are going to Christianity globally and And we, spoiler alert, this pops up in episode seven is it's about a trillion dollars now. And so from when the figures were $890 billion, the statistics were estimated to be about 44% goes to salaries and 25% goes to buildings. 6% gets stolen internally by church staff. That's $53 billion back in 2020.

And then spoiler alert, that number is much. larger now, um, that we receive in this year in 2025. And that's also in episode seven as well, too. So you're talking about a lot of money and it's dark, dark, dark, dark, man. And I got to tell you, the wicked love the dark and hate the light, man. Well, let me ask you this, dude, because, you know, I'm all about pattern recognition about seeing things that are similar in times and places. And do you see a similarity between the people that are running the biggest hustles through these churches like what what are the person is it a personality trait is it just uh yeah are they all are they all similar in certain ways i mean i'm guessing narcissism is probably

pretty high i love you you're what a great question because um narcissism always comes up but um there's a book i think it's called like the wisdom of the psychopaths something like that and my business partner uh read this book again he's he's read like 300 books he's read the bible cover to cover for 10 times. And this book was one of the ones that was given him to read in one of his interviews. And they did this study. And one of the top professions for psychopaths is pastor. Oh, God. But then when you say narcissists, you know, you got to think about it. It's like, I'm going to be on stage. I'm going to have this image of like, I do no wrong. And I'm not saying it's all pastors because like it's but a lot of them and it's this celebrity and somehow like

you became God's financial broker right well guess what the money's not going the statistics show the money's not going to Matthew 25 you know the sick the poor the the like the person who's marginalized like it's not going there and as a result of that no social issues in this world gets solved. I mean, the homelessness doesn't get solved. We've got, we've got almost, we got about 770,000 homeless. Of that, 150,000 are children. So it's a lot of single moms and children. And, and you hear about, oh, this state just got 24 billion for homelessness and all these nonprofits are working on it. How come the problem's not getting solved, right? How can we have all these people starving? You know, the foster said, there's 400,000 churches in the United

States. There's 1.9 million nonprofits. So you're going to tell me with all those resources, human capital and financial, that we can't solve this problem? Or the seven trillion the government spends every year? We can't solve this problem. Come on. Does the documentary carry over not just from religion, but also in a nonprofit? So yeah. So we do highlight non-profit. So the title of it, if you will, it's the religion business, but we also have a subtitle called and the nonprofit Goliath. Ah, there you go. Sure. So because there's a lot more non-profits than there are. There are, but there's more, there's more money in religion than there is in the, in the nonprofit.

So the nonprofits by quantity, yeah, yeah, there's a, there's some level of accountability, a level of accountability there. But the whole reason why my opinion, you know, social, go ahead. I was going to say, growing up Catholic, right? Like the priest lived in the rectory and they were all, you know, it's like three guys back in the little building behind the church. And, you know, that's where they were. and it was a bunch of Irish guys and they were all pretty cool, you know, as a kid. Luckily, that was my experience with, you know, pre-Sat Catholic Church, luckily.

Yeah, but, you know, you see this, and like, I think one of my favorite things this happened culturally in the last probably five years is I loved the righteous gemstones. Like, I loved that show. I thought it was so epic. Yeah. I thought it was amazing, but I thought there was such a level of truth in that with what of some of the stuff you see on TV and it's like, you know, it just, it really hopefully is bring you, you would like to think that it brings awareness, right? But the problem I think is,

is there's a certain, I think the people that sit at home and send in more money than they should to especially the televages. I think, I think there's a special ring of insanity for the televangelist group, right? Mm-hmm. 100%. Right. You're doing that, right? Yeah. And so my question is, like, what, what is the how am i going to put this what is the what is the profile of the person that is sending money in to the televangelist is it i mean yes is the same person called miss cleo and saying you know what's my future it's it's very vulnerable people it's people that are you know they're very vulnerable and people go to religious institutions very in a very vulnerable fashion especially

like on TV and you see this person miracles and healing and hey you want to get out of poverty you know give God you know uh you're you only making two pennies well give God your first penny well that means you're not God yeah you're not who you're not in Matthew 25 I don't see I don't see you've got a private plenty of private jets and a you know a 19,000 square foot parsonage that you live in I don't necessarily think that that's you but okay and um and so And so you see people that are in very vulnerable states. And then the other part, too, is that in order to, you know, Jesus says you know them by their fruits, you can't know someone by their fruits if you don't read God's word. So another interesting study that was done was that this megachurch and applaud them for doing it, had a study done on how to increase one's faith.

And they did a very thorough study on this. And it came back that the two ways to do that. One, read your Bible alone. Two, pray alone to God. And so then a critical go, well, you're trying to forsake the gathering. No. My point is, is like, John, you're an executive. You have meetings with people on your team.

And if they're just there to be consumers of content and not adding value and don't know what's going on in the context of what we're doing, they don't need to be in the room with you. You practically don't even want them on your team, but they don't need to be in the room with you. And so if you're going to go into a small group setting or you're going to be speaking and we're talking about like a small group Bible study and some sort of gathering, we're two or more gathered in my name. I am there. Gathering as the body of Christ, you should know the Bible and you should know enough about it to say that what that pastor is saying, that's not what I read in the Bible. Right. And I'll give you an example. The lady reached out to us, and she's been following the religion business for a couple years. She had a friend that they used to go to the same megachurch together in Atlanta, Georgia. And this lady said, hey, you need to relate to her friend. You need to watch this dokey series.

She's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. So she watches the dokey series. There's a lot of education in there with a lot of really brilliant theologians that debunk a lot of what comes from the pulpit. And what comes from the pulpit as it relates to the religion business, this concept of bringing money in. And she heard the pastor say that he's trying to raise $10 million for a building, okay? That's the context here.

And then he says, quote scripture falsely and states that you're supposed to sell all your belongings and give them to the church. And that's not what Jesus said. Jesus said to give it to the poor. And so she got up and left because she. she knew enough about the Bible and was aware and alert and then goes, okay, like, I'm out of here. Like, this is like, this guy's lying. And he's asking for my money to get a, do another building.

These buildings are insane, bro. And the sad part is about these buildings is, is there's one that I'm aware of, and I'm sure there's plenty more, where they raised 30 million for a building. And then this guy went and had blueprints, you know, got the blueprints and went out and is in that business. He's like, this building costs 10 million. So they raise more than what it is, but you don't know where it goes. Yeah, because there's a spadded out. What percentage of people at the pulpit do you think genuinely believe they're doing good? And what percentage do you think absolutely understand what they're doing? So the percentage, I can't give you specific percentages, but I can break this up in a few buckets. Yes. It's a guess. Okay. I would say,

I would say the majority, I would say 70% know that what they're speaking is wrong. And it is very difficult for them to unwind because how do you unwind all this fundraising and all this that you've been talking about? And how do you unwind a lavish lifestyle? And again, that's not, you know, that's like breaking it up into buckets. You've got people who are misinformed and don't understand the context of scripture, which means that you probably shouldn't be in this profession. Then you have those who deliberately know what they're wrong.

And the reason why I say you deliberately know what you're wrong, why do you hide your financials from your members then? Why are you not telling your members what your salary is? Why? I mean, if you're a publicly traded company and you want people to buy into your business, you got to disclose everything. You have to disclose everything.

You know how much a CEO makes, you know how many shares he gets. You know who the board of directors are. you know how many shares they get like you know all of these things and if you're going to invest in a private business you're going to know all those things too because no one's going to do that so why is this so different and special so people just want to hide behind god but you can't hide behind god god is light they're hiding behind the law and the law protects them from this and that's why we have this situation you know it's funny i have i have a i have a have a

plan when i'm king and god willing one day i will be um i could could solve all terrorist acts in the United States in like a day. I want to hear that. No, here's all you have to do, right? And this is from abortion clinic bombings to, you know, flying planes into, unfortunately, big buildings, whatever. Here's all you'd have to do. The problem, I think, with people that take religion way out on the fringe, right, is those

congregations don't police themselves because there's no incentive for them to do so. So all you have to do is you have to say, look. If anybody commits an act of violence in the name of any religion, God doesn't matter who, what, where it is, any type religion commits an act of violence, we're going to trace back to where that person goes to, you know, synagogue, they goes to mosque, they go to church, they go to whatever temple, whatever it is, and we are going to revoke the tax exempt status of that establishment, and we want back taxes since the day that it initiated. Yeah. And I think, I think it's, uh, you're talking about like an absolute extreme, but you know, that's, that's, that's a, you really don't, you really don't think that they would start being like, oh, Billy's a little touched. Oh, I think. I think you could put that all the way to like, hey, if you're caught doing an yearment, which is like your self benefit with this money and you're any fraud way, you know, fraud or abuse, like that should be reversed.

vote, right? Like, like, I'm saying, like, you're, you're at the extreme of that. And I completely agree with you. And I'm saying, like, you could do that for, for different categories of things as well, too, because so much goes away. So much gets, you know, there's a lot of money in there and it covers up a lot of sense. You know, how do you fix this? Like, how do you fix it? Because, you know, and now that the right is in power, which obviously the right will always look to appease the church of all religions. You're always going to have them appeasing because it's a huge part of the right space. So how do you unwind this through legislation? So I don't think it needs to lead through legislation. I think that the body of Christ has to stand up and start demanding

transparency. And so my business partner and I, based on these 10 loop pulls that he discovered, built a software platform called Broken Shepherds. And we basically scrape all the federal and state databases, and every nonprofit that takes donations in the United States is pulled into this database. So they have to go in and claim their nonprofit. Well, there's not an incentive for them to claim their nonprofit until the body rises up and starts doing things. So we created like a little Wikipedia type thing in there where anyone can go in.

And if they have known data, financial data, or who, the board is or executive director or who the pastor is. If they know any financial information also, they are allowed to input it in, but it's not verified data. The verified data comes where they claim it. But aren't you worried at some point, like, because remember when Scientology was trying to get their taxisem status, that was a war. Aren't you worried that at some point you're going to expose something that somebody doesn't want you to see and they're going to come? Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I know that. I've already dealt with. with it. I mean, there's, there's, I've already dealt with security issues and I know that it's just

going to get worse as time goes on. Um, but like I have, like I have to be willing to die for my, for my, for my, for my faith. I have to be willing to do that. And I, that's being a, being a, being a Christian's a dangerous thing. It's not an easy thing. It doesn't mean I go out and fight people with my, you know, on all that. And like, I'm a combat sports athlete. If someone comes at me, I can hold my own. I, I was in the military and such. And like, I'm well trained. I, I, I, I can hold my own. But it's, it's, it's, it's not necessarily that's not what i'm looking for here but i'm not going to like walk fearfully to not speak the truth in the light like i truly feel like god called me to do this and no it definitely you're obviously committed to it in a way that's this you know you're committed there's no question

it's like what do they say you know if you if you look at breakfast you know the the the cow is committed or the cow is interested in breakfast but the the chicken is committed that's funny it will be but you got let me ask you this because it seems to me though for the body to rise up you got to solve a bigger problem first which was within organized religion there's like a culture of shame where you can't stand up you can't stand out because you'll be ostracized you know I had a very I have a look because we're very close to Utah here right so we have a lot of big business people that come through the podcast that are some of them are still Mormons and some of them are retired Mormons, if you will.

And I asked them the same question all the time, which is, you know, I don't know if you know this, but like Utah is the Ponzi scheme capital of the world. Yes. It just is. And I'm like, why does so many people get involved with these Ponzi schemes? And it's like, because it's this fear of the church of not going with what everybody is doing. And there's this immense pressure all the time.

Because if you don't live up to the values and opinions of this. the church, that's the main pressure in your life. And I think there's some of that in all religions. You know, I mean, I can remember being, you know, young and being Catholic where the priest was kind of taking notes on you, like, you weren't here last Sunday. Where were you last Sunday? Right? They know, if you're there or you're not. You know, like you talked about tithing earlier, like they keep track of that stuff. So how do you, when you're involved in an organization that has that kind of social pressure on you? How do people, how do you be the first one to rise up? well i mean it takes it takes it takes courage and i think that you have to feel you know you have to

call to and you have to ask yourself like what am i what am i really following here am i following christ or am i am i following this this dark this dark path here like which which way do i go um you know there can't be accountability without transparency and the transparency won't come until there's this is a trillion dollar river right a trillion dollar river and we want to want to encourage generous giving with transparency, and we want to encourage one's faith with God, 100%. And so that money needs to be steered towards places where impact is at, and impact is measured. And so we're hoping with some nonprofits stepping up, and we have some that are, and we're working on a lot of automation on our end to make it make it better. We're in kind of a beta stage

right now. But it is available for download. Whereas, sorry about that. Whereas they get, whereas they begin to claim their profiles that people start to see, because we give them a transparency rating. We're not the arbiter of what an executive director or a pastor should make. As long as you're being truthful and you're putting it out there, you get, you get the same credit. If a pastor makes a million bucks or a pastor makes 10,000 or it doesn't get paid at all, they get the same credit. You can at least look at that as somebody that's a donator, make a decision of if this is worth your money. So we can get enough nonprofits to step up, you know, and claim their profiles and be

transparent. You'll start to see the river start tilting towards transparency because where transparency lies, there's accountability, and impact will happen and human flourishing will happen. And that's the only way any of this is going to change. And it's just like anything else, John, you've seen enough of these movements, right? like it takes time right like uh i i you know without i don't want like going to end in the specific things but you know how like five years ago when people were saying they weren't going to get the covid vaccine right they were looked at us some people were looked at as crazy you're an anti-vaxxer

and you're this and you're that now all of a sudden that's a cool thing to say that you didn't get the covid vaccine right whereas before i wasn't allowed into buildings my board at the time i was I was president of a company was like, we need you in Canada. I can't go. They won't let me in. I need you to go to L.A. They won't let me to building. I need you to go to New York. I need you to go to suite. I couldn't go anywhere that they wanted me to go because I didn't have the COVID vaccine. And so I was looked at very poorly. And so, you know, they were great with me in understanding and such. But like, I was, I was not the most favorable person at that time. Let's put it that way. And so that wasn't. But then, you know,

Five years later, it's a cool thing. And so this takes time, and I think it's going to be a cool thing at some point where people to stand up and say, I want transparency from my church or I'm not going to give money there. Like, I need to know this. And it takes education and it takes time and it takes seeing things over and over again. And just like that woman that was in the church that saw this pastor, you know, saw this pastor get false scripture.

She was like, I'm out. I'm not giving this guy about anymore. Look, I don't think you necessarily have to know the Bible and sign out. Some guy locks me in a room and says he's not letting me out until he gets $40,000. I'm not going back. I'm not like, I'm like, and that's the moment where I'm like, this probably doesn't seem right to me. I don't think I should be here.

Well, what's the name of your podcast, brother? Escape the drift? Escaping the drift, yeah. Escaping the drift, right? And that's kind of along the concept of escaping the Matrix. Kind of, yeah. So the whole idea behind the podcast name is so many people hand their life. And I think this is probably an apropos topic for it.

So many people just hand their lives over to the wills of others without even realizing they're doing it. And this is definitely that where people are just like, well, this person that I view of a in a place of stature is telling me this is what I have to do to get into heaven. And that's the guy I listen to or gallows, do whatever. And so I got to do this. Yeah, here's a great tactic. And you're going to lose your job if you don't fall in love.

line, you know, and then you're, so I love, I love that, you know, you're, you're speaking that from the business sense, but it's 100% applicable here. So there's a book that I've been reading called Organic Church. And this author talks about, I mean, he's pretty bold. He's calling today's modern church here in the West, the Matrix, right? And when you deep, dive deep in, you're like, wow, that's bold. But then when you think about it, the great commission is to go out and make disciples, right? Make disciples of all nations. But they don't want, it threatens like the message of that runs antithetical to scripture, like, or from the message for the, okay, so the message in scripture runs antithetical to the business practices of an

organization because that organization needs money and it needs to keep funding the next building and it needs to compete with the church down the street. So it needs to have better music. It needs to have a better coffee bar. It needs to have better child care. It needs to have better everything. Otherwise, they're going to lose consumer. So the other place, it's like, what's my competitive advantage?

It's called religious economic theory. And so you get kind of put into this matrix, this building, and you're not, you're going there on Sundays, but you're not going out into the world and making disciples. You're going and just getting talked to. You're not necessarily going out because if you went out, you're likely not going to be coming back and donating. You're going to be going out and giving money to the poor and putting money there and putting money for the sick and those Matthew 25 charges that we have. You know, it's interesting when you talk about being taught kind of how to think and how to feel. and I'm curious about this, is this really just a Christianity problem?

Or is this really, you see this overall religion? Or is that something you guys even studied? So we, like Nathan and I are both followers of Christ, we're Christians. And so we hold our faith to the highest standards. So we focused pretty much on Christianity. But this is what I'll say, though. Christianity makes up about 30% of the world. But it makes up well over 50%.

I think it's like 55% of the world's wealth. So there's a lot of money there, right? So that's part of the issue here. Yeah, that's funny. Many, many, many years ago, I worked with a dude that was from Pakistan, I think. And he was like fresh off the boat Pakistani, right? And I asked him at one point, I said, you know, can I ask you a question? Because he was a cool guy and we got along.

I said, what's the problem with, like, you guys and Americans? Like, what's the problem? And he was like, you've got to understand. We're raised in religion where we're told this is the only true way to live. This is, you know, all of the things that we do, this is the only true way. It is the only way to live. And we are dirt poor. And we see you guys living a completely different way.

And you seem to have everything. And that causes a lot of internal, you know, we resent you for that. And that's how I grew up. And he goes, it wasn't until I lived here that I realized, well, no, opportunity is everywhere. But it was just such an interesting dynamic, I think. And it kind of goes with this that people are just the person at the pulpit, regardless of religion, has such a power to shape your not just view of yourself, but your worldview as well.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It does. I mean, it's a very, that's a very powerful position. So I also relate it to this, brother. So we as Americans can, I want to say the vast majority of all of us agree that there should be term limits in politics, right? Oh, my gosh. Without question. So, and why, you know, we say, well, why is that? Well, because you can go there for two to four years and probably hold your line. but the vast majority of it with all that lobbying money and all the insider trading and all the stuff that happens there and the big bucks. I mean, this isn't like made up stuff. You go in, make $170,000 a year and then you come out $175. Yeah, a multimillionaire. Yeah, $28 million in the bank. Yeah. But is AOC's worth like $20 million now? I don't know, but I believe that. And then so then you didn't then we got that that house. paint it, then go to the religious house. I mean, I think, you know, this concept of being a lifelong pastor in today's system, at some point in time, the system will eat you. There's too much money in there, and it's dark. And it's a by, you're a byproduct of the system, just like you're a byproduct of the system in politics, right? Like, you look left, you look right? This person's doing it. That person's doing it. And a lot of it's not illegal,

right? You know, a lot of it's not necessarily illegal. Some of it, but you know it's wrong because you don't want your constituents to know. And then again, you know it's wrong because you don't want your congregation to know, right? It's taxpayer money. It's donor money. You know, it's all this money that's going in. I mean, goodness sake, like people are getting taxed 30, 40 percent, and then you got state tax, you got property tax, sales tax. And then on top of that, you're giving 10 percent. And then you look around and you're like, okay, why is crime so high? why are there homeless everywhere? Why are there sick people everywhere? And all these people are profiting off of me, you can go into the medical system. I mean, it's a, you know, oh, take this so you

can get this and we'll treat you for this. Like it is. And at the end of the day, the religious institution, the church is supposed to be the bright, shining city on the hill. And if that one's not, the institution's not, how are all the other institutions going to be? We did this When did this start? When did this go from being, you know, I'm the little house on the prairie and the church with this, the one little guy to this? Yeah, great question. So there's a direct correlation to technology.

So, you know, it's like, it's like, okay, you know, you have newspapers, right? And then you have radio. And then you have TV. And then you have internet. And then you've got streaming channels. And then you've got all these social media platforms. So the more access they have to reach you, the more money there is. There's more money in it.

It's just basic economics from that sense. So it has just gone up like that. And you will see, you know, when the Vatican needed money to build something, I think it was the basilica, then they were like, what do we do? Oh, we'll start selling indulgences, right? And it's the same thing that, you know, in the 1900s, right? I think like around in the 1950s, my business partner has the exact year. But around that time, you know, tithing became a thing up here in the United States, right? It's like, well, wow, we need money to fund these buildings.

And, you know, this is a full-time job. Yeah. So that started in the 50s? Well, the concept of tithing goes all the way back to Mochizedek in Genesis. But somebody found it in the Bible in the 50s and said, Wait a second. Did you see this? How can we get people to, how can we start funding these things?

And it's like, well, where in scripture can we point to something and everything? But the whole thing is it's been completely taken out of context, right? Like, you know, we're not talking about like the, you know, God given land to you. And then it's, you know, we're talking about like, you know, the first bits of agriculture and grain here. And then all of a sudden that ties into, well, yeah, you're supposed to give us the first 10% of your paycheck. We're, you know, you're supposed to give God's house that. We're God's house. We're the storehouse.

And it's like, okay, well, Christ told us who to give money to. Yeah. And it's not going to them. It's not going to them. The middleman isn't getting there. Well, let me ask you this because I don't know if you've thought about this, but I normally ask, you know, when we have business owners, CEOs, all these things, how, how AI is going to implement and affect their business in the years coming up.

Where do you? I mean, I'm sitting here thinking you're going to have chatbots dialing people that know everything about them 24 hours a day asking for money. Absolutely. So this, remember what I told you, it's like it goes like this, the more access you get. Yeah. Well, they're using chat GPT and other other chat engines for their sermons now. They're literally just a lot of them. They just type it, hey, what's a good sermon? on this and they that's their certain comes yeah and then you know they make a million dollars plus a year doing that well i mean you're going to see them with the ai you're going to see them with literally they're going to make AI generated clones of themselves and they won't even show up

they'll just be on screen yeah that it's a very dangerous direction when you when you think about it and that's why like you got to know you got to know them by their fruits all right so let's say somebody's listening to this and they're like holy crap i you know i'm religious i i like going to church I like doing this, what should they do? The first thing they should do, I encourage everyone, read your Bibles, pray to God, you know, and I would say, make sure you are, you got a good accountability group with you. Walk in fellowship, walk in the light as he is in the light. And, and, and know what, no, you need to be able to know them by their, by their fruits, right?

And so I would say, don't be afraid. Like, watch, like I say, watch a dokey series. If you go on our at Broken Shepherds, you'll see a lot of the data that we're trying to populate there. I would encourage them to start asking questions to their leadership. Sir, I've noticed, you know, I looked in the financial thing. It's a pie chart. I don't really see what salary you have.

Do you disclose that to the congregation? I don't need to tell you that. Might be the answer. do you receive a housing allowance? I don't need to tell you that either. So ask those questions and don't be afraid to. And if there's a couple people that you need to take with you to ask those questions, do it lovingly and kindly. You don't need to be rude about it. Just ask. Ask those questions. And if they can't tell you that, you probably, your money's probably not going to impact. It's probably not going to Matthew 25. If they can't answer the, if they can't

You can answer the simple question of where is it going, then it's probably not going and we're good. I got a really good, real world example. You know, somebody watched down the dokey series and went into one of the places that was profiled on the dokey series and went in there and said, I want to know what your housing allowance is. This person was their largest donor. And he said, I don't need to tell you that. And he goes, what about the $1.5 million I gave you for scholarships for poor children? Can you give me a list of names of kids?

I've got scholarships. No, don't need to tell you that. Can you tell me how many scholarships are given? I don't need to tell you that. What about the building? I don't tell you that either. And he said, Sianara, peace.

Yeah, I don't need to tell you that. Correct. If you want to keep my money, you probably do. So I'm beyond, like, you know, at first in this journey, it's like, hey, they're a byproduct of the system. We extended olive bran. and such, but like, you know you're doing wrong when you won't, you won't answer questions to the people who are giving you money. Can you run a business, brother, in any way, shape, or form,

or your investors, your stakeholders, your members, that you could talk to them and treat them that way? No, absolutely not. You would be, oh my gosh, dude, you would be on the worst list in the world. No one would ever want to do business with you. Done in one second. So, all right, last question who is public enemy numero uno who's public enemy number one yeah if you want if you had to if you had to pin one of the worst defender out there who is it wow there's there's several so um i'll say like uh you can give me the most you give me the most wanted list it's fine okay so uh like kenneth copland's one of one of one of the most notorious ones right um so his net worth allegedly i had to say that

is about $750 million. And so Kenneth, back in the day, right, this is like decades ago, was trying to raise money for this thing called the Revival Capital of the World, right? And he wanted to have a build like a hotel, a theme park for members and raise money for it, have an old age community for people. And then had an airport, wanted to have an airport built so they can fly into and all that. Well, the airport's in his name, okay? He has a 19,000 square foot parsonage on there that gets to avoid a $170,000-ish tax bill that the church pays for, that donors' dollars pay for.

There's oil, like oil being like pump there. There's an airport I said with his name on it, but not not, that's not for other people. It's just for him and his planes. Yeah. And a radio station got built, right, which against more access to money. there was no theme park there was no hotel none of that was built right and so you got to kind of look at that and go wow then i look at the church of jesus christ the latter day saints they've hit in the in the business world brothers you know called escape velocity they will have a trillion

dollars in assets estimated within the next decade they have 265 billion dollars in assets so they could you could you could buy every team in the NBA over twice and still have money left over. And the wild thing is, is not the original Joseph Smith, but like the third president. His name is also Joseph Smith. In 1907 said, the Church of Jesus Christ's Latter-day Saints will get to a place financially. It'll no longer require a tithe. Well, that day is definitely here because their operating expenses are a absolute fraction, a drop in the bucket to what they have and has it. Yeah, I mean, so today, today, you know, and then they have an investment fund, and they got in trouble at the SEC because they lied over 600,000 times.

It's an investment fund that, like, owns malls and hotels and orange orchards, and they're the second largest private landowner in the United States. And guess what? It's registered as an auxiliary to the church. Yeah, so it's interesting. There's a couple for it. there's a there's a couple and yeah and if you do business with us here in nevada and you're a mormon the thoughts and feelings of the i'm just kidding nobody's listening at this point we're fine no it's just me and you no we're good well brother i i appreciate it man i can't wait to watch

the documentary i'm gonna go home and check it out what is that where can they find it if they want to find it so it's on the religion business dot com and buy and then around labor day weekend time frame so early september we will have it up on amazon Oh, I love that. That's great. And where can they find you if they want to find? I mean, not come find you, but, you know, in general, connect with you. I appreciate your clarity on that one. Hey, just try to keep you safe. That's all. So our, on Instagram, our handles at religion business. We've been axed from a couple other platforms. So we're at religion business or you just type in, goodness, you just type in the religion business. I never know if your camera is being just getting dropped. You're actually being attacked while we're every time that happens. I never know. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. All right. Well,

Dupil, thanks for coming in. It was a really interesting talk. It was fascinating. And, yeah, it's eye-opening. And, you know, look, if you listen to this today, if you're someone that is highly religious, that's okay. That's actually encouraged. That's great. Just be mindful of what you're doing with your dollars, because if you're really trying to help people, you might be sent them to the wrong place. We'll see you next week. what's up everybody thanks for joining us for another episode of escaping the drift hope you got a bunch out of it or at least as much as i did out of it anyway if you want to learn more about the show you can always go over to escaping the drift.com you can join our mailing list but do me a favor if you

wouldn't mind throw up that five-star review give us a share do something man we're here for you hopefully you'll be here for us but anyway in the meantime we will see you at the next episode