ETF Edge - Grasping the global rally 1/28/26

Episode Date: January 28, 2026

There could be much more to it than just what headlines suggest. Fundamental changes could be afoot.       Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our ...collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 The ETF Edge podcast is sponsored by InvescoQQQ. Let's rethink possibility. Investco Distributors, Inc. Welcome to ETF Edge, the podcast. If you're looking to learn the latest insights on all things, exchange-traded funds, you're in the right place. Every week we're bringing you compelling interviews, thoughtful market analysis, and breaking down what it all means for investors and their money. I'm your host, Dominic Chu.
Starting point is 00:00:25 Is international stock rally is just a catch-up trade, or is it the start of something bigger? or a fundamental shift that's going on right now in the markets. Here's my conversation with John Mayer, the chief ETF strategist over at JPMorgan, alongside Tim Seymour, the chief investment officer at Seymour Asset Management, who's also a CNBC contributor.
Starting point is 00:00:47 Gentlemen, thank you both for being here with us today for ETF Edge. Perhaps, John, I'm going to start with you on a little bit more about this kind of global ETF trend that we are seeing develop. There's a lot more focus these days on that international and global side of investing than there has been over the local, course of the past couple of years, what exactly in your mind has been driving a lot of that renewed
Starting point is 00:01:08 interest in those international markets? Well, first of all, it's been a record-breaking year, 2025 for ETFs overall. So let's put that out there. Over a thousand new ETFs launched. 83% of those were actively managed. The U.S. trading volume reached $58 trillion, which was one in the quarter of the previous record. So flows into ETFs had been very strong. Last year, $1.4 trillion dollars after record breaking 23 and 24. So that continues on. Now, this year, you're hearing lots of conversations about metals. There's been a metal frenzy. That certainly plays into possible weakening of the dollar, the dollar debasement. It flows this year. exceeded last year, exceeded $216 billion.
Starting point is 00:02:05 That's over 100% increase if you combine 23 and 24. And our own Dr. David Kelly anticipates further room to run for international. There's AI, lower interest rates, shareholder-friendly policies. These are all providing tailwinds and a weakening dollar, of course, where this is leading investors to diversify their overall portfolios, that had been previously U.S.-centric portfolios. Still lots of flows into the U.S., but this diversification is something we are seeing, is certainly following strong performance.
Starting point is 00:02:43 So, Tim, I'll turn to you with this question then. How much of what we're seeing right now with the renewed interest in international markets has been because of this performance catch-up that we've seen in just the course of maybe the last six months to a year or so, and how much of it is due to the fact that there are fundamental drivers behind the economics in these foreign-type companies versus their U.S. counterparts. What exactly is the reason why we are seeing this kind of move higher outperforming in international markets versus the U.S. as of late? Yeah, so first of all, great to be on ETF Edge.
Starting point is 00:03:21 And, you know, this kind of a conversation, we could have been having this conversation five years ago. And if we were talking about a catch-up trade, the catch-up would be that global markets had really underperform. So to me, there's no question. This is not people saying, oh, boy, you know, this is a time to trade global markets. Because if you're investing in the AQI-X-US, all-world MSCI, for 10 years you underperformed. And you underperformed by almost 60%. So now in a 14-month span, really since Thanksgiving of last year, when we started to see this bottoming, you've seen international outperform the U.S. by about 16%.
Starting point is 00:03:56 It's been about 5.5% since Thanksgiving of this year. since Thanksgiving of this year, but 15 and a half from Thanksgiving at last year, you're still down 55% on this trade on a 10-year look back. So to me, this is about fundamentals. This is about, you know, the oxygen that was choked out of the market cap dynamic of the U.S. Mag 7. This isn't, you know, saying, you know, go sell those names. This is saying that there was a generational dynamic going on, and maybe we would have said this
Starting point is 00:04:21 at the start of 24. We definitely were saying this at 25, but at the start of 26, and it's a big week. earnings and some of the biggest companies in the world, but you can make an argument that we really have started to see that stall. They're still going to be the biggest companies in the world. They're still going to have growth that should be exciting to investors. But I just think that market kept move. That choked off a lot of international investing. I would also just say that international investors in the U.S. got very overweight the U.S. for those reasons, and they were chasing some of this high growth. And U.S. investors got very overweight U.S. on a
Starting point is 00:04:58 basis to what they historically had internationally. Now, when you say overweight and underweight, Tim, could I get your thoughts there about whether or not that overweight underweight aspect of things applies to the U.S. investors out there who are looking at whether or not they should be adding international global type exposure to their portfolios? Do you feel as though, Tim, that there is an underweight or overweight aspect to what's already in allocations here in the U.S. in terms of its investors? I think this is a long-tail trade, much as I just described, this has been taking place this underperformance for a long time. So I think U.S. investors are still underweight. I manage an international ETF that may be self-serving, but I would just look at the numbers, especially when
Starting point is 00:05:42 you consider that global assets are roughly 30 to 40 percent of global market cap, depending on how you want to look at it. And I would argue that U.S. investors are probably somewhere between 12 and 15 percent at the high end. And different demographic groups have. much less exposure. So to me, this is a story of, I would argue this is a valuation story, but it's always been relatively cheap to the U.S. It's a dividend story where divs are significantly better internationally, but it really is a story of where global growth has picked back up, where you have, you know, this is a controversial statement. I would say deregulation in Europe is a more powerful trend than it is even under the Trump administration, because it's all about a
Starting point is 00:06:25 relative change from where you're coming from. We all know Europe's been bureaucratic. We all know that these economies have underperformed. They've lacked innovation. I would make an argument that what you've seen for European Money Center banks is what's made it such a great investment. By the way, you've been a great run for Citib Bank of America and J.P. Morgan. It's been better for Barclay, Santander, and, you know, Sochgen at a much higher div.
Starting point is 00:06:49 So I think there's a fundamental story. There's this de-globalization thing that's going on. It's a bit ironic, right, that people are actually. looking at the world, but the news flow over the last week, whether it's, you know, India and the European Union cutting a big deal, whether we see it's, you know, Canada suddenly cutting big oil deals with China. The rest of the world is repositioning as well. So some of this is the geopolitics, some of this is just a long-tail trade that it underperformed. Some of this are true fundamentals, bottom-up valuations, companies like ASML or Taiwan semi that are two of the biggest, most important
Starting point is 00:07:21 tech companies in the world that happen to reside outside of the U.S. So, I think it right now is the early stage of what has been a reallocation. And investors saying, yeah, I'm probably underweight. And that I can get exposure to gold. And I can get exposure to precious metals and technology and re-rating of banks and utilities trade and data center. These are global trades, not just U.S. trades. Now, John, an interesting point that you brought up before was just how much of the growth in the overall asset management business, and specifically with regard to ETFs, is around.
Starting point is 00:07:55 active management. We've seen a lot of issuance here of new types of securities tracking actively managed portfolios. One of the places that we are not seeing as much of that in terms of U.S. exposure is in the international markets. Here you track, you kind of buy these country ETFs or these kind of stock market index ETFs that track certain indices around the world. How far out do you think we are until we see a massive kind of move towards actively managed or actively engaged portfolio management for global markets in an ETF format as opposed to the traditional mutual fund type international investments that people have made in the past? That's a good question. And active ETF flows in the U.S. hit $470 billion. That's a 60%
Starting point is 00:08:43 increase from 2024 and 2025. Active ETF flows make up approximately 32% of all flows in the U.S. last year, that's pretty phenomenal. As I mentioned earlier, 80% of the funds that were brought to market last year were actively managed funds. You are seeing a lot of issuance from active managers bringing all sorts of funds to the marketplace, including international funds. And we are seeing a meaningful amount of flows into those funds. For example, we have a Jive, which is an international value fund. That has had almost a billion dollars of net flows last year.
Starting point is 00:09:30 That's a pure international value exposure with an approach contrarying methodology to capture opportunities while avoiding value traps, looking at valuations. We have another fund, Jade, which is an emerging market fund. This is a core EM allocation. So providers like ourselves and some of our competitors are coming to the marketplace with international funds. And that's certainly a trend going forward. We're just seeing a ton of activity in the actively managed space as new competitors get into the marketplace because I believe that's the next iteration of the ETF marketplace.
Starting point is 00:10:13 John, if I could follow up on that really quickly, you mentioned some of the funds that J.P. Morgan manages. and whatnot. Are you seeing any interest from your clients specifically about certain geographies or locations that they're keying a little bit more on these days? Are there certain parts of the world that your clients are asking a little bit more about? Where exactly are the kind of hotter spots that you're seeing with regard to global investing? Overall, we are seeing Europe. There's a lot of interest in Europe, particularly with some of the lower interest rates. So European exposure, emerging market exposure as the dollar weakens.
Starting point is 00:10:55 And as investors are reallocating their portfolios to not necessarily chase returns, but realizing that there is a market shift going on and that not being exposed to international markets, whether there's somewhat of a regime change going on, would not serve your overall portfolio. So EM developed international markets are certainly areas of interest to our clients. All right, Tim, I saw you kind of nodding and engaging with that, as John was speaking right now. So if I asked you that question, where exactly do you think those hot spots that are popping up are and will be in 2026? What would you say? What types of locations?
Starting point is 00:11:39 And I'm sure these days, given the thousands of ETFs that are out there, you could probably find an ETF that tracks one of those hot markets. You can. And, Dom, so I've been investing in global markets since before you were kicking the slats out of your cradle, as they say. So, in other words, to me, these are markets that I've been following, and it's been interesting. I've known them as an emerging market specialist. Idevo, which is the ETF that I sub-advised and I'm a portfolio manager on, we're basically trying to track, and we are active, the MSCI All World XUS, or ACWI. And we also have essentially an option overlay.
Starting point is 00:12:21 So there's actually really a focus on a distribution yield. So we're trying to find companies that are growing their payout levels that pay high divs or have, again, the delta on that increase is really exciting. But at the same time, we're also trying to stay true to international investing, but with an active tone. So we've been overweight gold for two years. We have been, we were very underweight China until we really started leaning into the China tech trade once we felt that China macro, not I even mean the economy, but I mean the political kind of pressure and corporate governance risk for Chinese companies from their own government had improved a lot. So that's meant being overweight Alibaba.
Starting point is 00:13:00 But at the same time, you know, a Taiwan semi and owning Taiwan and owning the chip sector is, I think, again, again, And part of just understanding that investors want exposure to all these trends, but ultimately back, you know, you asked about the geographies. And to me, what's fascinating is you're seeing real outperformance in places that we hadn't really expected. So Latin America is outperformed this year. And no surprise when we talk about gold and copper. So Peru's up 25 percent. EPU. Chile, ECH.
Starting point is 00:13:33 These are places where some of the biggest copper deposits and mines and gold are mined from. EWZ, Brazil, has also outperformed. It's probably up 18, 19 percent as of today. Some of this are the dynamics around commodities, but some of these are the dynamics around the geopolitics. Latin America, and Brazil's the largest economy in Latin America, is starting to shift a little bit to the right. And that's very bullish for those equity markets. So, you know, to me, it's about finding the places like South Korea, EWY is the ETF, the country ETIF, a country ETF. And all we talk about is what is going on in high bandwidth memory and the biggest memory companies in the world.
Starting point is 00:14:15 And as semis have stalled a little bit, memory's still been on fire. Hynix and Samsung are the two biggest players in the world, if not two of the three biggest players in the world. And they're 46% of the Kaspi. If you buy the EWY, you're getting great exposure to that. We own the EWY and we have owned it in the context of, hey, if we want to get exposure, by the way, in a U.S. listed product, which isn't going to take local exchange risk, because that's another thing from the ETAF wrapper,
Starting point is 00:14:43 that we really want our investors to have that comfort, that we're not going to get lost in liquidity places. So owning an EWY really gives us that trade. So I think it is an exciting time for international allocation. for investors because the vehicles available to do it are there. If you want to focus in on a specific region, there's no question because you're getting into some of those, really some of those sector thematics. Some countries are really well known for those dynamics. And again, Idevo, we're kind of go anywhere best ideas and it's about 70% developed versus 30% EM. I think that's
Starting point is 00:15:20 the right mix for investors. I think a lot of investors don't want to reach too far out to the risk curve. I'd rather be in traditional big global companies with great balance sheets. John, one of the big themes, of course, in investing overall has been the tech trade AI specifically. That AI trade is also going to at some point work its way globally speaking with regard to the next hotspots. We know that in many Asian markets, we have markets geared towards semiconductor companies, tech supply chains that are going to be critical for this AI trade going forward. Do you feel as though, John, that tech and AI kind of intersection with global markets is going to lead to perhaps some of those
Starting point is 00:16:00 outperformance elements in certain key geographies around the world? And if so, what do you think those particular geographies could end up being? Is it going to be Asian supply chains? Is it going to be AI adoption and data center buildouts in Europe? How does that play out from a macro perspective in your mind? Yeah, no, I think the AI story is certainly broadening out. I I think international markets are certainly benefiting from the AI story. And there's tangential intersections with AI. There is energy production. Obviously, there's data centers.
Starting point is 00:16:40 There's the broadening out of production of chips and how AI can actually improve efficiencies. So that's all filtering into both international companies as well as other companies that are adjacent to the AI trade. And also in Europe with some of the fiscal stimulus, that's certainly a tail when it's going on in Europe. A weakening dollar is certainly a benefit to European companies and certainly to international companies in the US as well that have a large amount of their sales
Starting point is 00:17:14 outside of the US. I think some of the geographies that certainly will benefit some of the Asian countries, South Korea, China will certainly be a beneficiary, but also there's beneficiaries in Europe as well, because of that improved efficiencies. They're going to take advantage just like everybody else because that is the trend. And we are seeing CAPEX playing out, and that's going to continue to cause innovation. So I think the European story, the Asian story, the overall global story, will certainly continue to run this year.
Starting point is 00:17:58 All right. Tim, if I was to ask you what you think, in your mind, the biggest trend in international investing will be in 2026, what would it be? And how exactly do you express that view? I think it's underappreciated that there's actually EPS growth in places where we've seen a lot of stagnant. So I just think, again, the bottom up earnings dynamic, especially in places. like Japan, where we've had a real focus on corporate governance, a real focus on paying out free cash flow, a real focus, frankly, on efficiencies. This has been going on for
Starting point is 00:18:34 for 10, you know, almost 15 years. I like that dynamic and that backdrop in Japan. I do think the industrial defense spend. So the entire world is saying we need to have fiscal spending to support additional defense. That to me is a trend that is very important around the world. I love the utilities trade around the world because just like the U.S., everybody is short power other than probably China. That's a place where, whether you're owning RWE in Germany or, you know, E&E in Italy, I mean, these are some of the biggest utility companies in the world that have modernized. They're not necessarily, they may be large European companies, but they're not big, slothing, bureaucratic, inefficient places anymore. So some of those same trends,
Starting point is 00:19:20 I want to be long, some of those same trends people love in the U.S. because I think even in a world that is de-globalized, what it's doing is it's shining a bright light on global companies that have massive businesses in their backyard. And also those companies, and John referenced this, and I referenced it early with that EU-India pact. There's no question Europe is doing more business with Asia. China is using the U.S. dynamic of trade tariffs and at least some discomfort in terms of what U.S. trade policy is to try to cut new deals with the rest of the world. India for sure. So I think investors want to stay attuned to some of those same themes that are continuing to evolve. Last year's trends may not be this year's, but I think the deregulation trend is making international markets that much more interesting. I want to be in places where I think companies actually have the tailwind of a government that really needs to see them as national champions. So the strategic kind of element, again, we see that in the United States. We see that even companies like Intel. So I think if you are adjourned, Germany, you're going to make sure that your national champion companies, if they're not called
Starting point is 00:20:24 that, but whether it's Siemens or SAP or Mercedes-Benz or Deutsche Bank. I think these are trends that are alive and well. Or Ryan Mattel on the defined side of things as well. John, I'm going to conclude things with you. If you as an ETF strategist and one that has the vantage point from where you are at J.P. Morgan, what exactly does excite you the most about what's going to happen with international markets and investing in 2026? Well, first of all, when you're choosing an ETF, particularly in some of these international markets, I believe an active manager makes a lot of sense. Now, when you look at JPMorgan, for example, we spend a billion dollars on PMs, research, technology, and that spend is only going to increase. So looking at an ETF,
Starting point is 00:21:19 that leverages technology, leveraging the deep bench that we have as an experienced manager, both in international as well as U.S. markets, is where you want to place your bet. How can you effectively analyze all these different companies? A passive index typically is weighted towards, you know, a few top names that often drives the performance. but you could have a strong opportunity and a value exposure. By having a PM that's looking bottoms up at these individual companies, not trying to avoid value traps, is really important. So active management is only going to be important and continue to grow in terms of assets.
Starting point is 00:22:11 And as the ETF marketplace continues to evolve, you'll see that more and more investors are using active ETFs and putting them in their portfolios. All right. John Mayer, ahead of ETF strategy over at JPMorgan Asset Management. Thank you so much. And of Tim Seymour at Seymour Asset Management, thank you as well. We've asked Tim to stick around for the ETF Edge podcast.
Starting point is 00:22:34 You can catch that in all of our other content over at etfedge.c.com. Now it's time to round out the conversation with some thoughtful analysis and perspective to help you better understand ETFs without. our Markets 102 portion of the podcast. Tim Seymour, CIO at Seymour Asset Management, and a CNBC contributor continues with us now. You know, Tim, there were a number of interesting conversation points that we brought up during that show for ETF Edge.
Starting point is 00:23:06 And I want to kind of pick up on one of them, which is the relative, I guess, relationship. Yep. Between investing internationally, when it comes to the companies that you're investing in themselves versus the macro economy that they're operating in, these are the currency rates. Yep, 100%.
Starting point is 00:23:25 All of that has to play in, and you have to be cognizant as a global investor about how those interest rate and currency fluctuations can affect the returns of your fundamental corporate investments in those markets. They're critical. And so, first of all, it's great to be on this podcast because this is kind of, this is a real fun kind of format
Starting point is 00:23:44 and a back and forth. And to remind the audience is that when I first started putting in my time on CNBC back over 20 years ago. In fact, it was 2001, 2002. I was a international investor. By the way, what was your name? My name, my Nick EASI, the ambassador, of course. And in fact, I hosted a show called Trading the Globe,
Starting point is 00:24:05 which my view was global markets are fascinating. We're a global financial news network. Why shouldn't we be doing this? But one of the things that I feel like I said back then, and one of the first things I learned investing internationally is you can't invest in a bad neighborhood. And what that means is it doesn't matter how great the bottom up story is for a company. If you're in a place and obviously the farther out, you go on the risk curve in terms of the sovereignty, like emerging markets, the higher the sovereign risk, the more it matters in terms of the bottom up story may not matter.
Starting point is 00:24:36 So if you're trying to think about how I want to invest in Japan right now at a time when the yen has been your friend, actually, this is an export economy. It's still considered really the largest export economy, even though in aggregate terms and absolute terms, Germany and China are significantly bigger at this point. But I am concerned if I'm an investor in Japan right now, if there's actually going to be a significant strengthening of the end. Now, I actually think that it's going to be difficult for the end to reverse field aggressively. But I do think because in other words, I think the bottom line is Japan has inflation right now. For the first time, be careful what you wish for, for the first time in a long time. new prime minister, Takeishi, is not only looking to cement her power base, and so maybe calling SNAP elections to kind of reaffirm that majority, but also just the dynamic about deficit
Starting point is 00:25:26 spending. You can make an argument, if we think some of that's going on here, Japan is a place that wants to do it even more so. Typically, very good for the economy, typically very good for an equity market. But if the currency continues to, if it continues to weaken a bit, I know that that runs counter to the total return part of investing internationally because I would also say 50% of your returns often can be your currency. But bringing it back to, right, picking your macro correctly and understanding that, you know, for example, in Germany, we got a print, we got these numbers recently, even though it was a backward looking 25. Germany grew GDP in 25 for the first time in three years. And I realize that 0.2% we shouldn't be doing cartwheels.
Starting point is 00:26:13 but it on a relative basis. And we say this all the time, right? It's when things go from terrible to just bad. And in this case, I wouldn't say two-tenths of a percent of GDP growth is bad. But I think investing in Germany right now, investing in European growth is something I'm interested in. Investing in central bank differentials between the ECB and the Fed really does mean that the currency markets are showing and illustrating those differentials, meaning the euro has been rallying aggressively against the debt. dollar. The euros at almost, you know, four and a half year highs. Other plays relative to the dollar that also reflects central bank differentials. The Aussie's at three year highs. Even the
Starting point is 00:26:53 Chinese yuan is at three year highs. So what we can see is, are these places that I want to invest in because the currency is my friend? It's appreciating. Yes. I absolutely believe that. Now, there's also many folks in our audience are sophisticated with regard to international investing because they understand the dynamic of how much returns are influenced by not just the stock going up in Germany, hypothetically, but also the appreciation of the euro. And that contributes to things. We know that because there are ETF products that invest not just in international companies,
Starting point is 00:27:27 but also ancillary ETFs that are quote unquote hedged that also invest in those markets, but take away the currency appreciation or depreciation element. If you look at some of those investments right now, many of the unhedged investments in international markets have done way better than the hedged investments because of the decline of the U.S. dollar and the appreciation of the local currencies that you're investing in. How much then do investors in these ETFs have to do their homework, so to speak, on the macro economics of these markets, to your point, versus just understanding that, hey, we think this company and this jurisdiction has a great fundamental story.
Starting point is 00:28:09 what exactly do they have to understand about the risks of currencies with regard to ETAs? Yeah, and in places where you've had an enormous currency volatility, hedging out your currency exposure has probably been a really good idea. You know, my preference would be, especially for the sophisticated investor, is you're making a call. You're making a call on the currency and the underlying. And I think that's part of where you can pick and choose between different countries. So gold, copper, have been on fire.
Starting point is 00:28:36 So again, Chile, Peru, these are places that have been. been rallying, you know, off the charts, South Africa, so the Rand getting in that exposure if you're owning a South African ETF is, I think, your friend. It's very important. It's part of what you're looking for. I guess, you know, my feeling is that the dynamic of investing internationally, there are a couple of things that the ETFs give you exposure to. And I run an ETF where we're selling call options against underlying positions to enhance our yield. last year our yield was around a 6% yield by, you know, and I encourage investors to go out there and, you know, look at all this stuff themselves and check these numbers. But the point being that we're trying to target an enhanced dividend, which I think is a bit of a hedge in and of itself.
Starting point is 00:29:22 I would never go by, and I'm, you know, on fast money, I've probably said this before. I'd never buy a stock for the dividend alone because you could lose that in an hour, let alone a trading session. but I do think for a lot of investors, I'm not here to tell you when to time international markets. I think investors should be owning international markets. The question is, do they want to own 5% or 35%? I'll let them and their advisors and think about how that's supposed to be. I manage an international ETF.
Starting point is 00:29:50 I believe international is growing in terms of the influence again. And I think some of that is, are the issues that we see in, yes, the geopolitics, global trade and whatnot? I just think this is a long-tailed trade. where you've got what was underperformance for over 10 years now coming back. I think we're still pretty early. But I want to kind of tie a ribbon around. Your question was, should you be hedged, should you be not hedged, should you be looking
Starting point is 00:30:15 at active managers in international markets? I think absolutely. But I would encourage investors, especially those that are doing their homework, make a currency call. I think, by the way, my view on the macro around the currencies, I think Asian currencies have a lot of room to appreciate against the dollar. more so. I think the South Korean won. I think clearly the Japanese yen. I think the, I think even the Chinese are looking to establish this reserve currency status and might let their
Starting point is 00:30:42 currency appreciate a little bit more, which historically they never did. So I think that's interesting. I think the euro is probably, I wouldn't be chasing euro gains here, but I think the dollar is probably going lower, and that's not the reason to go out and buy international markets, but I would say that's probably your friend. All right. So let's close things out with trying to tie a couple of different, you know, ends together and connect certain dots. We had talked about the kind of income aspect of being in international markets. You had alluded in the ETF ed show that there are certain kind of companies in certain jurisdictions that have bigger dividend yields than their counterparts here in the U.S.
Starting point is 00:31:23 You mentioned banks specifically with regard to Europe. There's also a case being made right now that diversifying internationally is not just about chasing the capital appreciation, the currency appreciation, but that there can become an income aspect towards diversifying your paycheck portfolio, so to speak. For sure. How exactly do investors do that? What do you think in your mind is the best way to gain exposure to those international markets, whether they be on the debt or equity side, to enhance the paycheck profile,
Starting point is 00:31:52 if you will, the income profile of some of these international portfolios? So if I look at the dividend yield of European Money Center banks, it's, it's, it's, It's probably a pickup of about 180 basis points over U.S. Money Center banks, which leaves it in the low force. Really impressive. You know, at IDBO, that's kind of what we do. We're trying to find companies that are growing their payout levels. I think the energy sector is a place where, again, people know a lot about Chevron.
Starting point is 00:32:21 They know a lot about Exxon and Conoco Phillips. The break-evens on paying out fat dividends for Total in France or Royal Dutch Shell in the Netherlands are even lower than they are here in the U.S. So if I'm looking again for just the support that comes from this income part of my profile, look, owning these companies outright, but we're on the ETFs. So we're talking about ETS that invest in these companies.
Starting point is 00:32:45 Absolutely. There's a pickup on the energy side. I mean, Petrobras, if you even strip out, I think it was a one-off div at the end of last year, which made the dividend annualized yield distorted. But if you strip that out, it's still paying about a 14% dividend yield. It's Petrobras.
Starting point is 00:33:03 So historically, you were taking on the dynamics of the Brazilian government and some of the concerns that they're using it as their kiddie bank. But as an investor sometimes, as long as they're paying out that dividend, let the government spend that, you want to be on board with the same div. They want to pay themselves. So sometimes it's your friend. All right. So Tim Seymour, thank you so much for joining us here on the U.C.S.
Starting point is 00:33:27 podcast. We really appreciate it. Let's come back and see us. Let's do it. All right. That's it for the ETF Edge podcast. Thanks for listening. Join us again next week or just head over to etfedge.cnbc.com.
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