‘1989 (Taylor’s Version)’ | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift
00:00What would you do if you got scammed?Would you suffer in silence, or would you do something about it?Well, I got scammed once, and this is the story of what I did.I'm Justin Sales, the host of the Wedding Scammer, a true crime podcast from The Ringer.And for seven episodes, we're hunting a comment.A guy with a lot of aliases, a guy who's ruined a lot of weddings.And with the help of some friends, I just might be able to catch him.Listen to the Wedding Scammer on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:30And welcome to every single album, Taylor Swift.I'm Nora Pinciotti.And as always, I am here with Nathan Hubbard.Nathan, a very happy 1989 Taylor's version to you.Same to you.It's finally here.It really is.This is a big moment.
00:58This is a big album.I like, obviously we'll talk about all sorts of things.But my top line reaction is not really about Taylor's version.It's just about this album.It's really good.This is a really good album.I can't believe it exists.I can't believe it's in the world.
01:15It's in the world again in a second form.But, wow, I just wanted to say that before we get started.1989 is very good.1989 is my favorite Taylor Swift album.And I love all, I love lots of the Taylor Swift albums.But 1989 is, it is the best Taylor Swift album, I think.And we're going to talk a lot about this.So let's just set the table first.
01:42We love this album.It's the best.So much of this re-record, for me, has contextualized in hindsight what was going on for her.It has reframed for me the way that I think about the album, mostly because through this re-record process, and in particular, I think through the vault,she's kind of told us what this record is aboutand who a lot of these songs on this album are aboutand we sort of knew itbut now we know it
02:22I mean look I thinkthere's maybe a duelingthe vault is interesting rightbecause there's this dueling sense ofyou read the prologue that she put out with itand you get into some of the stuff on Slutwhich obviously we're going to talk about.And there's such a theme of like,
02:42leave me alone.I'm just trying to hang out with my friendsand maybe date like a normal 20 year old.But then also,there's maybe a guy who we might know,who we might have podcasted about a time or two.Just a little.Takes up some space in here.
03:04Man.Where to even begin,Nora, because it does.This is, this albumis a great carboncopy.Yeah.More so than
03:19maybe any of the other re-recordsother than,other than fearless, I guess,but fearless I remember receiving with such ajust like, it was so new, right?And it was such a like, oh my gosh,she really can make these things soundsame. But that was, Fearless was such an
03:35easier project. Right. And a mucheasier challenge in terms of doing that.This one, I had a real reaction of like, oh, this is 1989.She remade 1989.And I spent some time texting with people who have better ears than I do and, you know,reading reviews from people who really got into the nitty gritty on the production aboutwhere some of the differences are and some of them you can hear and, you know,it's more quantized and blah, blah, blah, blah.
04:12blah, blah. And I like talking about that stuff and we're definitely going to. And it's interestingbecause it's interesting to me to sort of live in these songs. But I'm glad that you brought upwhat a good carbon copy this is. Because one, that is just what it sounded like to me when I,when I listened to it. I went more so than some of the other ones. Like, oh, here's 1989. She justremade it. And then the other part of that is that, you know, some of those conversations,I think happen in the context of how successful of a project is this going to be.And we've had that conversation.We'll continue to have it because we want Taylor to succeed and we're interested in how
04:57that's going.But I also think that we're getting to a point where it's time to put pieces of thatto rest.There is enough data to show that this is a wildly successful project.and I think even if some of these songs weren't as effective carbon copies,it would continue to be a wildly successful project.The data shows that every time she does one of these things, you know,it eats up a huge amount of the original streams.
05:27And 1989 is such a big album.It's such a lasting album.It's such an album that people continue to play the big hits off of over and over that she's got an opportunity.It's a third of the streaming from the catalog that she didn't own outright.That's why this, from a business perspective, is so important, right?If the re-recording project, the purpose of it is to reclaim her art from people who claim to own it,but she doesn't believe should own it, then 1989 was the biggest re-recorded project.it will, we expect,
06:07undercut the biggest part of the catalogthat is in the hands of someone else.So from a pure business and purpose perspective,mission accomplished.We should talk about why it took so long to get here.And to your point,it's going to be fascinating to seehow someone who is at the moment,
06:29the peak of her fame,which when she first put out this record,felt like she could,couldn't get any bigger. But now she's actually found a different atmospheric level to inhabit.It's going to be very interesting to see how this album streams on a go-forward basis relative to the old one.But I just, I want to free us up a little bit to be able to talk about all of these songs,including some of the changes that we can hear between the original versions and the new version.I want to free us up a little bit to be able to have that conversation without it being a,
07:10is this going to work?Is this going to be okay?Are people going to listen to it more than the originals?Because I just, I think the only honest assessment is that the case is pretty closed on that.People listen to the Taylor's versions.They're very good at their stated aim.And this one in particular, I think, is going to have no trouble doing that.So we're going to talk about the difference.
07:34but I just, I don't want it to be like a,well, what if it doesn't work?Because I don't have that concern here.That's not the question.You're right.Thanks, Gabble.I would like to also free usfrom the discussion of whether 1989 is good.
07:53Like, that's not in...I am freed of that.I am unburdened.Okay.Okay.Well, I hope the audience will go there with us.It's like one of the best albums ever.Yes.
08:061989 is fucking awesome.It is a little, it's funny, like how, I think part of what I said at the top of just like, shit, this is a good record, comes from that.And like, we're not critics in the traditional sense, right?Like, we're fans.But there's a little bit of like anxiety or just like, oh yeah.It's 1989.Like, what do you say about it?This rules.
08:30I want to run around and dance to it.Great album.Good work, Taylor.10 out of 10.Yeah.But there is a little bit of anxietybecause you're like, hey,why are we repainting the Mona Lisa again?
08:45Oh, right.We're going to reclaim the art.Okay, I'm on board with this.But like, we're not going to fuck it up, right?Like, we're not going to...I mean, I'm on board with the projectin service of...I mean, that's why I think it's important
08:57to talk about the business context.It's just a reminder of why we got hereand why we're going along with this project.We really, really love 1989,but I get why we have to be here.I just, please don't mess it up for us.And she did not mess it up for us.It is still wonderful.
09:19I will stream this album in support of the cause over old 1989.But Nora, are you going to miss old 1989?Not that much.So, okay.Really?These songs work.Like, I don't know what to tell you.They work for me.
09:39Well, so it's song by song, right?And I have said, if an original works for me better than a Taylor's version, I listen to the original.I think it's okay.But we usually start with talking about the biggest song in the album.And I think we should talk about blank space because I will listen to Blank Space Taylor's version.Absolutely no challenge.Same.Yeah.
10:10I mean, I think this for me is one of the songs thatI guess I fell a little bit more in love withwith blank space.And Bad Blood is the other one for me through the re-record.I'm all in.Did you wish a little bit on Bad Bloodthat she'd included the, hey, stop.Yeah, of course.
10:48I probably needed.that more thanKendrickwith Valdeto KendraYeah, okay,fine,but I do think
11:06this is oneShe wasn't doing anything.Yeah.I mean,there are,we should talk aboutwhy,like,
11:16where is Max Martin?Why doesShellback show up?With Ariana Grande.As a producer,only on Wildestdreams.I mean, Christopher Rao does a fine job, but I think I have more respect for Max Martin after
11:41listening to these re-records.I thought they'd struggle a bit more with the recreation sonically of the parts.I think they got all the colors right, and they painted perfectly by number.I think they didn't totally get.the ending blend.And like, for lack of a better word,I'm not sure the vibes are the same on every re-record.I mean, there, it's like, I mean,
12:14I'm slightly hung under today, Nora,because my brother's in town and we cook last night.He really gets you.It's always, like,on every single album recording when your brother's in town the next morning,and Nathan's always a little worse for the wear.But I think sometimes, like,it brings something out of you.
12:34Yeah, well, okay, fair enough.But like, we cooked last night, okay?And I make these awesome potatoes ogreta, okay?And it's a very simple recipe.There's only like four things in it.But like, I can use the same ingredients every timeand follow the like age-old recipe.But sometimes it just comes out of the pan
12:56tasting slightly different.And this album is going to be,be more controversial than I imaginebecause some peoplelike the different taste,even though it's the same ingredients, and bakedin the same pan and in the samefreaking oven at the same temperature for the same time.
13:13Some people don't,but I have to say, youcan tell.And music is fascinating in that way, right?There's so much aboutits creation that iscontingent on the air that's inthe room, on the position of the things
13:29in the room, what's hanging on the walls,the equipment you use, the weather, not to mention your body and the physical state of your bodyand the emotional state that you're in at that very moment. It goes into making something. It's whyI think AI music is never going to replace authentic artistry, because the same artist can go inand recreate with the same ingredients and the potatoes just tastes a little different on this 1989.The potatoes. So you missed the old one a little bit. Is that true?there are parts of the old one that I miss.There is a vibe on the outro of style
14:06where there's just this wash and wave of soundand that groove that just gets me every time.I can just tell the difference.I'm with you that when I put it on last nightwhile I was making the potatoes,like it serves its purpose.It's totally great.Well, style I do think, is one of the ones
14:34that's the most different.The funniest thing I saw is somebody saythat it sounded like the guitar has a head cold.Yeah.Like it's just a little stuffy.Yeah.And I do think that that's, you know, you can hear it there.I think when we're talking about recreating the work of like literally the producer of,
15:06of this century, we got to put that in context.Right?Like, Max Martin is very good at his job.He's excellent at his job.And I appreciate it more than ever.Yeah. So I think it's probably only right that we come away with a little bit of like, man, hard to do what that guy does.Yeah. And yeah. I mean, why do you think he's not here? Is it relationship or is it contractual? It's one of the two.Is probably not interested in doing this. Like, not every artist wants to get in the, you know, go back into a studio and take on the challenge. And it's an interesting.
15:53challenge, but it's just a different challenge than Max is normally doing, or even someonelike Taylor's normally doing, where you go in there and what you're trying to do is, let'smake this song that we've already recorded sound the same, doing it again, however manyyears later. Like, that just might not be interesting to him. But it's objectively weird thatShellback shows up just on Wildest Dreams and not all these others. I agree with that. I, like,look, these are kind of bizarre.Swedish dudes. But is itbecause sonically
16:27on wildest dreams? I mean, that'sone of the easiest ones to recreate.Maybe they needed himto, he did just enoughthat they had to give him a producer credit.I mean, when you pull all of this apart,what's really under, if youcrack these questions that I'm asking,
16:44I want to know, I wantthe documentary onhow they made this. Becauseit suggests that there's beensome consultation. Hey, do youremember which Noyman Mike was my voice on on this one? Like, hey, were these delays? Like,what was the speed of the delay? Like, all of the like nuanced technical detail around how theycreated each sound, they must have been consulting the guys to try to just get to some
17:14aura of recreation. But if they did that too much, my sense is contractually, they probablyhad a line they couldn't crossbecause then it would bein violation of whatever the master.Now, it's not like the owners of her mastersare going to sue her in this moment.That sounds like a really bad call.But I do think they were working
17:37within some constraints legallyaround what they could do.And so Shelbeck's showing up on wildest dreamswhen he's not showing up on blank spaceor bad blood or styleI think is part of the reason whyyou can tell the differenceand it's not what I expected Nora
18:16like I thought when we went way up close to the paintingwe would see differences in the bits of detailwhen you put headphones on and go inand go back and forth between the two versionslike the attention to detail is almost immaculatewhere you start to feel itat least where I start to feel itis when you go out to 30,000 feet
18:36and it's just vibe checkand it's different.And some people are saying,things sound crisper.The mix is more,you know,the parts are more isolated.I discovered congas on new romantics
18:48that I didn't even know existedand I want to hear how you felt about that song.But it is,you know,you learn some new partsthat didn't exist before.But when you go all the way in,you can't tell the difference
19:01between these things.It's just not what I,expect it was going to happen.Isn't part of that just the nature of the improvements in the equipment that they're doingthis stuff on? Isn't it just easier to hear little distinct threads in a song than the qualityof recording used to be able to provide?Yes, that is some of it. But I guess I'm arguing that I think some of it is the Max Martinvibes. And that the absence. The mystical vibes.
19:32in some sort of like bizarre Scandinavian accent,magical vibes.Yeah, I don't know why I just did leprechaun,but I don't either, but it's fine.We'll go with it.They're both in the north.They're not that far from each other.It's fine.
19:45Sort of live in the woods and like forage for mushrooms.And again, this doesn't make the new onesbad or different.I enjoy hearing synth partsthat when you go back and compare the two,oh, yeah, it's there.It's just more present.And the same guy,
20:02these things, right? Serban Ganea, the guy whose name, I will never know exactly how to pronounceuntil I meet him. But he mixed these two things. And again, when you're mixing an album,you've got headphones on, you're listening to it in your car, you're listening to it in speakers,you go to a bunch of different places to see how it all resonates. And I think he mirroreda lot of what we heard. It's just there is a distinctness to all of these ingredients. You cantaste all of the ingredients more than you taste the dish itself on the re-record. You're moreconscious of the ingredients than you were the first time around. Do you think Wildest Dreams wasrecorded fairly early because of the horse movie? I'm going to call you spirit. I don't know,
20:56but why is out of the woods on the duck movie? Why does she keep putting these songs,sinking them in weird animal animated movies.This isn't about migration.It's about adventure.Is that a little scary shoe?I'm not going to try to answer that question.What is with the duck movie?She's quite a woman.
21:22I don't, do you know, like,can you explain the plot of the duck movie?Maybe we'll have to get back to that.I'm confused about the duck movie.But it has out of the woods in it.So like maybe.Yes.There's a mallard.
21:32duck that is crazy, funny, silly, wacky kind of guy.And he goes on a wild journey.It's like Dora the Explorer.It's like just plug and play.There's going to be three obstacles.You're going to get through it at the end.We're going to high five and go to the next episode.Whatever.
21:51The duck, it seems cool.I can't see the forest for the trees.I don't feel like I understand the duck, but that's okay.That's not on us.It's not on us.But more people are going to see the movie because she synced it.But the duck movie is recent, right?Like the trailer for the duck movie came out recently.
22:07Whereas horse movie...Well, here you go.So here you go.Because what you're really asking is when did these get recorded?Well, I'm asking if Shelbeck might have been involved in Wildest Dreams because Wildest Dreams was recorded relatively early in the process, which might have conflicted less with a little something called the Ares Tour, which, I mean, we've seen her during the weeks, you know, in and out of the studio.right? But I wonder if just the circumstances of touring, if she was still working on thisand doing stuff, got her in a place where if there was anything that she could do with Jack,with Christopher Rowe, with the sort of usual suspects who mold more of their schedule around
22:56her and also don't live in Sweden sometimes, if that was.was just a thing that made more sense to do. If it made more sense, assuming, and I thinkcorrectly, that it was going to be sufficient to make this work, to, you know, pop into thestudio, record a vocal with Jack, record a vocal with Chris. Cool. You know, take it from here.You're asking the right question. My own belief is that when Taylor Swift calls, you answer thephone. Amogen Heap answered the phone.You're still allRyan Tedder answered the phone.
23:49All respect to those people,they're not Max Martin.Okay.In stature and also in likeMax is like persnickety.He's like a weird, like,I'm not sure that if you're2023 Taylor,
24:05do you really want,like he's such a perfectionist?Do you, do you, like,of course you want that guy in the studio,but do you really want that guy being like,do it again?that it's perfect like this,say your syllables like this,
24:19like doing all that Max Martin stuff?I think the answer to that question is yes.And so I'm asking,did they have a personal falling outor contractually does it not work?Because most of the work on this albumcan happen when she's not in the studioat this point,
24:34because you're just recreating somethingin the moment they had to be togetherand, you know,there's video of them kicking the groundto make the sound effectsand they're all around the micson the ba-p-pap-pap.on shake it off, all that stuff.
24:52But the only thingthat they would have had to do togetheris her vocal track.But this brings up the questionthat again, we need to knowof how exactly this thing was recorded.I will tell you what my...I just, hold on.
25:08What would they have had a personal falling out over?I don't know.I don't know.She doesn't like meatballs?You never know.It may have...been something related to copyright ownership.I'd have nothing on this.
25:25I'm just saying it's super weirdthat he's not on this when in every other casethe original producer is involvedand then you got Shelback,who's his right-hand dudedropping in for the cameo on Wildest Dreams.And I hear your point,but let me give you what is
25:45the working theory that I have about this album.And the weirdest thing that's happenedas a part of these re-recordsis the store changed to 1989.There was a bunch of signalsthat the 1989 release was coming.And then it stopped.It just stopped.
26:04And we got nothinguntil midnight's.And my working theory on thisis that they were working...Jack was in the studio,working on the vault in particularfor 1989and Midnights broke out.
26:21They just feel the vault tracks herehave very close cousins on midnights.And we'll get into how close these things are.But now that we don't talk,has a lot of labyrinth in it.Say Don't Go sounds...It's got some clean. It's got some wildest dreams in it.For sure, it's got a bunch of other things.
27:03We'll talk about it.But, like, they're suburban legends.I had the fantasy that maybe your mismatched star signs would surprise the whole school.Very close cousin to Mastermind.Once upon a time, the planet's in the face and all the stars aligned.Yeah.And so I want to know when exactly they started on this process, because it feels like maybe they gotin the studio a lot earlier than we thought on 1989,
27:38because we know a number of these songshave been around for a while.At least on some of it.Yeah.At least on some of it.So when you hear, when you do the forensic analysisof exactly what sounds like what and what the little changes are,you hear a story about the timeline of the re-recording project,
27:56the timeline of Midnights,the relationship between what sounds were inspiring, Taylor,what sounds were inspiring, Jack, maybe.and something that took off potentially from this project already having started to be in motion.I get that.I think that's interesting.And it's super interesting.And I also think that that could reveal some of the stuff about, you know, by the time Midnights is out or coming out, her life and her plans and her schedule is heating up to such a degree that maybe you end up recording.
28:33parts of thisin a slightly different waythanthe very earliest songscould have been done.And maybe that explainsthe lack of...You're asking the right question, which is we saw her a ton in the
28:49studio while she was on the road.But like, Maddie Healy was in that studio.Like...Zoe Kravitz was in that studio.I mean, a lot of people have been in that studio.And at some point, we're going to find outwhether they were doing this,whether they're working on reputation,
29:06whether there's new music.I mean, that's the intrigue.Yeah, but those are people who,those are people who sort of like exist in,other than Maddie,but he did for a time,like exist in Taylor's orbit.Yeah.
29:22Where you can, you know,she can have a couple days offand go out for a nice dinner with her friends,and one of them also happens to have,have been in the studio for her with her for a few hours that day.Right.And I see her doing a lot of that right now, which makes sense because she's really busy.Is now the time to talk about her going to dinner with her friends?
29:46Oh my God.I'm obsessed with the New York magazine piece about what it's like when Taylor Swift goes into a restaurant,which I encouraged anyone to read.It is paywalt, but it is worth it, I swear.The best detail I will share with you.from that storyis thatat one of her nights out
30:08where the crewsounded like a good crewit was TaylorGreta Gerwig,Zoe Kravitzand Laura Dernand maybe some other peopleum
30:17Zoe Kravitztried to bust the tableafterwardswhich I think the restaurantthought was likelike nicesort of niceand nice
30:32that a celebrityTaylor clearing cans and plates in the suite at the Chiefs game?But no, it's different because it's really weird.It's a restaurant that's somebody's job.Like, you're not supposed to do that.I think it's so weird that at the end of the meal, Zoe Krammits, got up and was like,let me go back to the kitchen.I'm going to take these plates.
30:57What?How could she goes to these restaurants that all have like,a number and then a one word in him. She's at Zero Bond. She's at Nobu 57. She's at four Charles.I think you need like your own Taylor Swift restaurant. I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, you know,13 sunshine. Yeah, it's going to add up to 13. If I have a restaurant called 13 Sunshine,she's coming. We should get on that. She sounds like a good guest. All of the, like,like, again, the best line from the piece was one of the guys in Emilio's just was like,what can I tell you?
31:41She eats, she pays, she gets the fuck out.It's so good.What is she doing at Bradley Cooper's House, by the way?Why is Bradley Cooper's House suddenly the central meeting place for all the...Is that just like if you're a, like, notable female, like, going to Bradley Cooper's houseis like going to the Louvre or something?It's like you've made it if you go to Bradley Cooper's house.Why is she randomly coming out of Bradley Cooper's house with Blake lively?
32:08Well, and then Bradley, but then Bradley Cooper was, maybe they're trading real estate.Yeah.Oh, do you think they've done like an Airbnb house swap?Yeah.I mean, Airbnb's like getting canceled.So maybe that's what's going on.It's just, you know, you can take.He and Gigi are in Rhode Island in exchange for her in the place in New York.
32:27Yeah, why not?And then Sophie's, Sophie's in the...Sophie's in her place.Nobody's living in the right house.But the pap'sYeah, maybe that's what everybody's up to.Maybe they just shift aroundand they're just confusing the pop, I don't know.
32:43That would be fun.She and Bradley Cooper are friends.It's fine.Why shouldn't she be at his house?I just, it doesn't make sense.When did Bradley Cooper enter the cinematic universe?I don't know.Well, it's somewhat,
33:01related, right? Because they're friends.And he'smaybe friends with Ryan Reynolds. I don't know.Taylor's like in this...She's hanging out with the Deadpool directorand...Yeah. I think a lot of this has to dowith the Blake-Reyron
33:18connective tissue of the current friend group.Well, whatever. It is what it is.It played its partin promoting the release of this album.And it is wonderfully reminiscent of what was happening when the original came out.It is fun.Yeah, I'm enjoying it.I'm trying to let go of my anxiety about the, okay, you know, all the tabloid stuff
33:48and all of her being so ubiquitous during the actual 1989 era was the precursor to a darker time,though a darker time that she came out of beautifully.I'm just letting go of those nerves.I like seeing her out and about.I do too, but do you miss it?I mean, that gets to her voice on this album.Once again, her voice is exquisite,and she has turned it into her most powerful instrument.
34:16And it lacks some of the tensionfrom her voice at the time,which was equal parts desperation and wonderabout being in this place.I missed the desperation that I didn't even realize I was hearing at the time.I mean, like you, I'm happy she's not desperate anymore.But with hindsight, she told us she wasn't eating.She had this mix of insecurity and, like, hope.
34:44She writes about, even on the notes for this release,she writes about surrounding herself with female friends,in part because she thought we'd stop talking about her personal life,but in part because she'd never had those female friends,as a child.This is everythingthat is Taylor Swift,isn't it, Nora?
35:03It's both strategicand self-soothingat the same time.And I'm happythat she's not there anymore,but I hear the differencein her voice,even as accomplished
35:15as her voiceas an instrument now is,that tension is noton this re-record, is it?Yeah, I think sometimesit's replaced withyou know, how she can kind of belt and get the gravel in like the, and I remember.Yes.
35:46A line like that where some of the original versions had like a finness that just isn't in her voice anymore.but that does communicate a little bit of the sort of delicacy and tentativeness that we now know thatshe was feeling.I agree with you.Sometimes sometimes I miss hearing it a little bit, but I think she's able to make up for it.And I think that she did, you know, we're having this interesting conversation while we'renominally supposed to be talking about blank face.She hits all the Starbucks lovers.
36:32notes.And I think she spenta lot of time really carefully making surethat those pieceshad what they needed to have.And to some extent, like, yes, her voice has changed.And there's nothing that anyone can do about it.They have discovered the low register of her voice.
36:57We heard it on Midnights and we hear it throughout the vault.She sings in the lower rangein ways that she could not sing this waywhen she recorded this album the first time.All right.Just really quickly on the Starbucks Lovers point.Again, please tell me they documented this.I gotta believe that at some point,
37:19they at least tried her singing Starbucks Lovers.I think at some point she went in and did a takewhere she said the word Starbucks Loversto try to nail it.I'm sure that they did at least a day of vocalon the chorus.just to nail that part.It's kind of like,
37:39it's Starbucks,but without the R.It's like Stab-like, it's like with a really thick Boston accent.Right,it's like a back bag.Starbucks.Yeah, I'm sure that
37:54I think a lot of theseshe can probably just mostly go inand lay it downand get out of the studio pretty fast.But there's attention to detail.In breaths.Yeah, I think that, yeah.I think they spent hours
38:06on Starbucks lovers.Yeah.Yeah.When we did Best Song originally for this album, I believe that I spent some time in that section talking about New Romantics, which I think that we should do now.Let's talk about New Romantics, Taylor's version.The first question that I have for you.Yes.Are those the lively Reynolds children doing the ah, ah, ah, in the new one?
38:46Something is amiss.What happened?I don't know what happened.I love this song.Did it not work for you?It didn't quite work for me.I think, like...I was worried about this.
39:03I heard it and I was like, she's not going to...This one's not going to go with her.Here is my offer.If we and if all the Swifties band togetherand we go on a grassroots campaignto cruel summer new romantic,Take it to number one.Give it the life it deserves.
39:26Then I will replays original new romantics, one of my favorite songs of all time.With the new version, which is mostly good, but has the weirdest sounding moment on that little part.It sounds like, it sounds like kids.Yeah.Yeah, well, and it sounds like the, the sort of percussive conga thing that's going underneath,I didn't really ever notice in the original version, and I notice it here.And so maybe the kids are playing the congas, too.Yeah, there definitely are little instruments that you can hear.
40:17The other thing that I think is fascinating about New Romantics Taylor's Virgin is not actually the song,but is something that was included in the physical edition of the album, which was a poster that had some of the original lyrics written in it.And most of it was pretty much the same.But there was a part where you could see that she'd crossed some stuff off.And there was originally supposed to be a line that was, maybe I'm a shit show, but I'm fun and kind of cute.Yes.Put that on the tombstone.It's honestly a pretty good manifesto.
41:01That's the 1989 era.Rock on.I love it.I guess it's probably for the best that got crossed out.The song also contains the word anti-hero at one point, which is pretty interesting.But, like, nothing is going to top, maybe I'm a shit show, but I'm fun and kind of cute.Taylor Swift, ladies and gentlemen.Did this re-record change what you think of as the best song on the album then?
41:30That's not fair. No. No. No. New Romantics.You sure? Nothing will ever be better than New Romantics.Well, what is the best re-record then for you? Because it sounds like it's not New Romantics.Okay. All right. So I'm going to give you what you.want here.Yes.Because I think, I, I think.Okay, hold on.
41:56Hold on.I'm going to make this as hard as it can possibly be.I'm going to qualify this like nine times.There are some songs that are not like the canonical 1989 songs.Mm-hmm.We're like, all you had to do was stay.She absolutely ate that up.Yeah.
42:21Wonderland.Wonderland?Wonderland Taylor's version?Like, thank you.you. That's a gift. Okay.They crushed out of the woods.They did it. They crushed out of the woods.They crushed it. Congratulations.
42:49They crushed out of the woods. Thank you.It, I, I mean, I, the end is great.Only Jack and Taylor could have done this one. And they understood that.And that's why he stepped in to do this. I mean, there's a reason,I don't know, I think there's a reason that the ones, the songs that are done by theoriginal producersare the bestvibe ones.
43:22Yeah.The Imogenheap one,like she herselfacknowledgeduncleanunclean,Imaging
43:35acknowledged that it'snot perfectand she wentand said,like,tell me whatdetails I missed.So you can tell
43:40that she herselfhas been sort ofmaniacallytrying to pairthese things up.But look,all I reallycared about
43:46on this wholeproject wasthat theynail the lastminute and ahalf of out ofthe woods,that they nail
43:53the dude.the do you remember at three minutes and 39 seconds.And they fucking nailed it.And I don't know.I got like,I got emotional hearing that part.Because the song just,I remember the first time that I heard that song,
44:21I have no idea where I was flying from,but I was flying home and I got on an airplane.And I sat down after a long day and I pushed playas the door was closing.And I just fell in love with,this song. And I was so nervous, as you said, anxiety about, wait, why are we repainting theMona Lisa? Oh, okay, we're reclaiming the art. Okay, I'm on board, Taylor. Please don't fuck this up.And that moment from this album just matters to me. And I heard it. Every time we say anxiety,
44:49I hear it in her voice from that, that Grammy's performance where she was talking aboutout of the woods and described a certain relationship as having been dominated by anxiety. Andshe enunciates it like that.And that's, I feel like we're inhabiting that vibe.I'm going to play you a song that I wrote about a relationship that I was in,that the number one feeling I felt in the whole relationship was anxiety.Right.And just the repetitive, the repeating of the phrase out of the woods,
45:21which for some people, if you don't get the context of the song,I can see where you're like, come on, it's sort of annoying over and over and over.But that is what's going on in your head when you're feeling that level of,of anxiety is just you can't stop the repetitive thought going again and again and again and againand the fear are we there are we out are we clear of this moment which now understanding through thesongs on the vault how much of this album is about harry styles out of the woods takes on aneven greater import for me because it is this accident that we are going to hear about again isfrom is it over now right we're going to hear about it that the style is there
46:02this one they got right.I'm so glad that they workedto nail that moment,which for me just iseverything across this whole album.I'm thrilled with this re-record.I love it.Thank you for getting it.
46:16By the way, biggestclown mask of mylife for thinking there waseven a chance ofstyle featuring Harry'syeah. Yeah, let's just say that theKendrick Lamaryou know,
46:32the Kendrick LamarBad Blood Collaborationis not the collaborationthat everyone was hoping foreven though it's greatand it clearly,like, working with himappears to have had an interesting
46:43impact on her.Yeah, but I thinkyou're a,to paraphrase,clueless,you're a lying traitorwho can't driveis,
46:54is the dominantimpression.Look, Mr. Harold.It's not the whole, the dream is not a hundred percent dead.She has a tendency to come out with a really big surprise that you weren't expecting.We didn't really get a big surprise that we weren't expecting here yet.So they're, for all of the, the clown, keep the clown mask at least in a drawer where you know where it is.Like don't lose the code to the safe where the clown mask is.
47:27It's not going anywhere.I'm just saying, we did get a lot of hairy on this album.Yeah, we got a lot of hairy on this album.So for me, I'm with you that out of the woods is my favorite re-record.But because of the context that we get about the hairy relationship to me,I just come back to, I think, the most important song on this album and the biggest one for me is style.And I am interested, I'm with you that the guitar has a head cold in some way.And I don't know that that's Paul's fault because he's playing it both live.
48:11And like he plays it great.It always hits for me.But there is something about the outro of style and just that wave of the groove that feels like it has more of a sheen and is less of, as she described it, in that lost lyric, a shit show.And I love the shit show and I miss it on style.That guitar part is supposed to come out and like slap you in the face.You know?It's like,bam,
48:57bam,bam bam,and it's supposed to kind of like...Listen to you.Playing the bampo horn.It's a little more muted.It's just,it just blends in with the rest of the mix a little bit more.
49:14And I don't think it quite has that like Miami Vice thing going.When it doesn't separate in quite the same way.Right.So that's,it's definitely.definitely one of the things that, I mean, we've probably now talked about the two sonic differences,that being style and that moment on New Romantics.Those to me were the closest we got to cocaine bears on this album.
49:52A lot of the rest of it was like pretty, you know, you can hear the differences, but...What about shake it off?I mean, shake it off ostensibly the, you know, the single of the hit from this...It felt to me like they thinned out her voice a little bit,but there's the spoken word stuff and the hey, hey, hey,how did she pull off, shake it off for you?I think she did it.Like this sick beat?
50:20I did too.She had it.Liars and the dirty, dirty cheats of the world,you could have been getting down to this.I wonder if it's because she's been performing it so much.I was like, that had it.That had the stuff.I was worried when I listened to it.
50:38This was never my favorite song.But I really appreciated the re-record.The attention to detail is really impressive.I thought this was one where the wheels would come offbecause, in particular, because of all the spoken stuff.But yeah, this really, shake it off is great.My ex.She had it.
51:01I think it's because she's been doing it on stage every night.I think you're probably right.Okay, I think I'm inventing a new category for usbecause I want to talk about the vault.So we've done best song.We always do best song.But let's talk about the best new song.Let's first talk about our reaction to slut.
51:33Slut.The reality that I thought I was going to come in and just listen straight through.And I go into Spotify.There's the timer.And it's clicking down.And as soon as it hits, I refresh.And I go straight to slut.And you and I try not to communicate.
51:59much around these things so that it's fresh when we actually talk about it on the pod.But we did do a lot of texting around this one. And you went straight to slow.I lied. Yeah. I'm a liar. Taylor Swift recorded a song called Slot exclamation point.Like, I don't know why I thought that I was going to be able to not click on it first. And then, yes, I had to talk to you about it.And I'm going to reveal a little bit about our...text thread, which was that in the moment, it was the first thing that you and I listened to.So this was at Midnight O3, East Coast.You and I expressed a little bit of disappointment about this song when we first heard.
52:46Yeah.I don't know if it earned a declamation point.It's not, it wasn't the like, this is the saddest shit I've ever heard thing that I was worriedabout, but it's a little closer to that than.Yeah.Yeah, the banger that I thought it was going to be.Yeah.I was hoping for something that would make its way into a stadium show
53:05where people would be sort of screaming that in a sort of, you know, whatever, tongue-in-cheek way.It's somewhere in between.Look, it's more melancholy than I expected.Yeah, it grew on me, though.It grew on me.Okay. Talk to me about that.Well, I've listened to it a lot more.And once I sort of absorb the lyrics,
53:30I've found my...There are three vault songs that I have fallen a bit for.I got to contextualize that the entire vaultfeels like midnight outtakes to me.And or that midnight, you know,I think my working theory is that midnight grew out of this work.But the more that I listened to Slut,the more I enjoyed it,
53:54I have trouble getting over the drunken love line.Because it's just, it's Beyonce.Also, was anyone calling Taylor Swift a drunk at that point?Well, from this point on, they'd have maybe good reason to because...I think there's a very real...And, like, she's always been a...She's this, like, beautiful, you know, white on top of the world celebrity.So I don't know that she's ever had.
54:41It's always in the subtext, right?It's not that people were out and about screaming slut at Taylor Swift.Right.But all of the slideshows, right?All of the, here's a list of all the guys who Taylor Swift has torn down in song.Right.Like there's such a subtext that is slut-shaming of her.And so this song to me, which I think is a little bit more valid than I don't think anybody was calling her a drunk.
55:17No, but I mean, listen, her alcohol references in her songs go up and to the right if we chart them from here.From this album on, she's, you know.True. But like, but that happened after, but whatever, it doesn't matter.To me, the song is, it's not my favorite song. Isn't it, it's an okay Taylor's,Swift song, it is a really interesting snapshot of how she was feeling.Yes.Because I think the story of 1989, the music is so undeniable and it's so interesting.And it was so different from anything else that was big that I think the legacy of 1989
56:01original is Taylor Swift went pop.And the effect was this like 80s-ish synth pop masterpiece.And holy shit, those songs sound good.And look what she was able to do.And she finally committed.And that's a story about the music.That's a story about what it sounds like.That's a story about how successfully this woman could say,
56:28I am shooting for pop star, mega stardom and get there.That's always been the story.of 1989 to me,but I think the story of 1989Taylor's version has a lotmore to do with, I felt likeI had to reinvent myself completelybecause I felt like shit.
56:51And like everybodyhated me andthought that I had too many boyfriendsandso like there's a little bit of a dissonancethat I'm pointing out and being like,was anybody really calling Taylor Swift a drunk?And like, the slut-shaming
57:06piece was absolutely there andAnd for sure it was.Yes.But I also think that there's, yeah, no, it was dissected in.But I think the thing that's really interesting about slut to me is what it reveals about her mindset making 1989.Yeah.And I think that the, you know, when you take it with the vault, the picture of the album tells a more personal story.in a way that it's not better or worse, it's just interesting.
57:46The first time that I met her was before this album came out.I was in a house and she came in the room and sat down and we were talking about some business stuff.But she confidently said, I'm about to release the best music I've ever made.and the juxtaposition of that confidence about the end productand what you are articulating here,which is the way that she was feeling in the moment.And, you know, again,what we know with hindsight about the anxiety
58:25and the emotional wear and tear of her relationshipsand what was happening with her body and all these things,there's a really strange and fascinatingyou know,dichotomy between those two things.What else from the vaultstood out to you?Well, let's go in order.
58:46I mean, to me, the three songsthat I will continue to listen to,I think, our slutare now that we don't talk.And is it over now?Yeah.Say don't go for me.Now I'm pacing on shaky grass.
59:22is clean.I mean, the verse is sound like clean.There is some wildest dreams.And his voice is a familiar sound.Nothing lasts forever.It has some Madonna's like a prayer.It has some your love by the outfield.And all of that is okay,
01:00:22because I think we have to look atThe Vault always as continuing her process of working through ideas in multiple songs,some of which end up in the cutting room floor that she's letting us see here.And in this case, it just feels like with this song, she probably works some ideas withDiane Warren, but say, don't go for me.I don't necessarily need to hear it again.It gives me some insight into the process of other songs, but it feels like a sandbox thatmade other things.
01:00:56Now that we don't talk is also one of my favorites.And it's just an interesting piece of evidence for what you're talking about in terms ofhow this got made.Because in the voice memo, and by the way, my first reaction to the vault was when youget to the end of 1989 and the next thing you hear is not, so over the years, it's, it likefreaked me out.I wasn't ready for it.New Romantics ends.
01:01:22And then you're supposed to hear the I know places.his voice memo.So over the years,a lot of people have asked meto sort of describemy songwriting process.And I was gratefulthat she did the voice memos on Tumblr
01:01:42as a sort of nod to thosebecause I love thoseand I think they're special.But it was interestingin the one for now that we don't talk,which I think is the best song in the vault.And I think I agree with you.Would have been the strongest contender
01:01:57to make the album.But she says in that voice memo, they couldn't get the production right.They just couldn't quite figure it out.So it got left on the cutting room floor.It was so hard to leave it behind.But I think we wrote it a little bit towards the end of the process.And we couldn't get the production right at the time.But we had tons of time to perfect the production this time.
01:02:17Which, you know, let's take the little Easter egg from that.That means that there were some meaningful and serious production choices happeningin whatever the now of making 1989 Taylor's version wasfor what the vault sounded like,which if we're talking about the relationshipbetween the vault songs and Midnights,I think is interesting because it says,you know,
01:02:46we weren't just copy and pasting things that existed in full,but were on the cutting room floor.We were making musical choices in the now.And that can,can bleed in and out of something like Midnights.I can't unhear labyrinth.It's the same key,lots of the same chord progressions.
01:03:24Just take the lyrical part of this out of it.The bridge to me sounds a little bit.Well, though I don't want to do that at allbecause I love the lyrics.No, I do too.I'm just saying,but the bridge sounds a little bitlike the bridge of mastermind to me
01:03:36that no one played with me when I was a little kid.Look, this song is great.Now that we don't talk,My mind fast forwards to the Grammy's conversationbetween her and Harry Styleswhere they were actually talkingin what looked like a normal way at a table.Kind of normal.
01:04:10Kind of normal because they didn't like hug goodbye or anything, right?But you just wonder how long was that gap?This is an example of a songwhere they really lean into the lower register in her voice,which started on folklore and Evermore.But I guess my question for,you, since this one seems to be the one that you, that you landed on, who likes acid rock?You can't answer that question, Nathan? You don't know who likes acid rock? I know who likes acid rock.
01:04:48Harry Stiles likes acid rock. He likes acid rock, feather boas, and bad driving.So it's there. But this is, this is an important song to contextualize the rest of 1989, right? I justman, she was down bad for Harry Stiles.Down bad. I got to say, I'm a little torn between, has Harry been like completely skewered?Or is the sprinkling of charisma through Taylor Swift songs upon Harry's style?Is there a little bit of that that's continuing to go?Is this like a messed up thing in my brain?Oh, for sure.
01:05:30Well, and so to get to the other vault song that I love, which is, is it,over now.This is a pretty heavy-dutyHarry Styles song that suggestsmaybe it's never over.Sad boat girl.Sad boat girl.Building jumping.
01:06:01Jumping off of high things.Oh Lord, I think about jumpingoff a very tall some thingsjust to see you come running.I mean, like, this is in the same key as out of the woods.The end where she says, is it over now, is a lot like the take me home part in style.So this too feels like something that was being workshopped and that ended up on the cutting room floor.But it is, it's a pretty intense lyrical song.
01:06:51Does this one hit for you?Will you continue to listen to?Yeah, it really hits.Do you think that, oh Lord?Would that have been on the originalIf this had made the albumWould she have done that?Would she have had the same like
01:07:06With that?No. Or would it have been weird?No.I think it probably would have been weird.I think you're right.That to me is a postI mean there's a little bit of country thereRight?
01:07:16So like there's a certain root of thatThat goes back forever with Taylor.But that was a post folklore evermoremoment to me somehow.I'm super into that song.He really fucked her up.And as Harry Styles'as want to do with
01:07:33with women, I believe,this guy is a real mind effort.Oh, Harold.I mean, look,yeah.So Suburban Legends,it's a skip for you totally.I mean, I hear...
01:07:49No, so look.I hear Mastermind on that one.When I ended up,I got a classroom.I ended up in the same room at the same time.That's actually my only problem with Suburban Legendsis that it's just not Mastermindand it's not quite as good as Mastermind,
01:08:12which is, I don't know if it's a top five Taylor's song,but it's top 15 probably.Yeah, I start wanting to sing all the wisest womenwhen I hear Suburban Legends.It just, it feels like a kernel of that song.I like the concept.I think it's fun.I want to drive around in the suburbs and listen to it.
01:08:30I think that would be a nice thing.but it is just, I don't have a fundamental problem with recycling, right,and playing with the same ideas on different songs.Suburban Legends is over the line for me.It's just the same song.And it gets in the way.And that's okay.It's on the vault.
01:08:52But...Okay, okay.But this gets to a thing I'm afraid to say out loud,but I'm going to say it.It's time to break up the band.Jack and Taylor are, I know you joke with me about this metaphor,but they are at the edge of the forest of their creative output right now.They have done great work, but I think they need a break.
01:09:15Everything is starting to sound the same.Good same, sometimes great same.But still, my overarching reaction to the vault was,I could be singing, don't take the money to this.I could be singing,some other bleachers song, I could be singingMidnight.Yeah, the vault is very bleachers.
01:09:46It is super bleachers.And the bestoutputs of her life creativelyhave been when she hasencountered someone newand worked hard to build something together.That's why clean is great.It's why Welcome to New York is great.
01:10:15It's why reputation isgreat. It's why the Max Martin songs are great. It's why all of the work with Aaron Dessner wascareer transforming and great. And now, I just want them to chill and have her go get on Raya forproducers and go find a new date and do a little work. You can always come back and create morestuff together. You two are wonderful and you will always be great.I am, I break up the band.It would be good for both of them, I think.It's time, right?
01:11:02It's not a criticism, but we're there.This sounds as a collection, the vault.And again, there are three songs on here that I really liked, the more that I listenedto them.But the first pass, overarchingly, I was like, I've heard this before.And I heard it recently on Midnights.and it's all starting to sound the same.Good same, sometimes great same, but the same.
01:11:30If they're going to...If they're going to...They should find out, right?Like, it's pretty obvious that Taylor and Jackcan go into a studio togetherand have close to certaintythat they can walk out,with something pretty good
01:12:06and pretty interestingthat people are going to enjoy hearing.Yeah.I love don't take the money.That should, I love don't take the money.I love 45.I love Jack.I love his work.
01:12:20This doesn't have to be a big,like I know it's a big,because people hate on Jack all the timeand it's dumb and I don't hate on Jack.I love Jack.I love Jack Antonoff's work.But I'm just saying that I thinkthat's why there's like sort of attention
01:12:33in this, it doesn't prove those people rightif they take a break.That's right.And it becomes something powerfuland that pushes her in a new directionand challenges her creatively.Yes.If they are getting to the suburban legends place,
01:12:53I think it is a signthat it might be worth seeingwhat else is out there.Yes.And if that type of creative inspirationcould come from working with a new partner.And if it doesn't work,they're like best friends.
01:13:10They're going to be in each other's lives.They're going to see each other.They're going to work together.They're going to have ideas.It's going to be okay.Like, Jack's going to be around.Taylor was at the wedding.Like, we're cool.
01:13:22And look, in this moment of deification of this woman,I ask everyone to just take a breath.And it, she's,going to do what she does. It's great. But it is okay to acknowledge that her best work comes whenshe gets pushed creatively. She always knows that. She has the finger on the pulse of both the fan baseand her own career. So she's going to come to this conclusion on her own, I am sure.By the way, you know who that happened with? Jack Antonoff. Exactly. Exactly.He was a new ingredient for her at one point and pushed her and it was textures we had.
01:14:03hadn't heard, and it led toone of my very favorite Taylor Swift albums.So Jack is part of this, too.He's proof of concept for this, in fact.Well, I mean, guess who gave us cruel summer?Jack and Taylor.No, but not...St. Vincent.
01:14:27St. Vincent was a part of that, right?So I just...Again, I'm thrilled at their work.This is not a criticism of anything in the past,but the signals are thereand I don't even need to ask for it.You and I don't need to ask for itbecause Taylor is always ahead of the curve on this stuff.
01:14:47But it's time, and I can't wait to see who she chooses.This will be the first time I thinkthat she can look to what is legitimatelya younger generation of artistand dive in to do some work with some producerswho are creating soundsthat are somewhat derivativeof her work, instead of her working with artists or producers who are older than her,
01:15:13where their work is derivative of stuff that's older than her. She can maybe pivot. I do thinkthat's probably the next musical phase of her career is not in a Madonna way, not in like a rayof light, like suddenly she's in the club, maybe more like you two Octung Baby where they wentinto the discos in Berlin and took a break and found some new sound.sounds and work with it. Taylor, go to Berlin. But I do think that's what's next. And the vault,I fell in love more and more with those three songs, the more that I've listened to them. We'llsee how they age. I could get there. But the first reaction was, hey, it's time. And that's okay.But that's where we are. I think now that we don't talk and is it over now are really strong.
01:16:04Yeah. So that's not to say that there aren't.pieces of excellent work coming from this.And I think that's what makes it hard, right?Like, they love working together.They love being together.And a lot of the output is excellent.But you don't lose that by going in a different direction and chasing something new.And I'm excited to find out what it is.
01:16:26I mean, just in terms of what the next chunk of her life is going to look like,obviously she's more than capable of getting in the studio and working on recorded music while she's touring.but I also wonder if the fact that the tour is about to pick back upand is going to be such a huge part of what she does for the next year plus,maybe there's a little bit of a break that comes naturally there.And what this album teaches us is that the relationships that she has been inthrough the course of her life affect her deeply.and Travis Kelsey last night showed up
01:17:09Travis Kelsey last nightshowed up at the World Seriesinstead of in New York with her, fine,but there is the cutest videoof him out at some barand love story comes onand he is jumping up and downfilming himself and the crowd
01:17:26and you know she got that video.She got that video and it is super cutebut she is now in this relationship with somebodywho is clearly different from the guy who made 1989 happenbecause he's so in his feeling, you know, the mind fuckerthat apparently was Harry Stiles in this moment.Let me just say that.I'm sure he's grown in lots of ways.
01:17:49But this relationship...Hold on. Hold on.I just...We need to talk about this for a second....is going to change her.And it's going to affect her music, is all I'm saying.We're going to hear...There's enough we've seen.
01:18:00We're going to hear...stuff about this relationship and whatever she makes next.I don't doubtthat Harry Stylesoranyrandom dudehas the ability
01:18:19to inflictpsychological turmoil.You think this is native to her?Well, what is native to her?I think Harry Styles said the moviefeels like a movie.You know, my favorite thing about the movie is like it feels like a movie.It feels like a real like, you know, go to the film movie.
01:18:44I'm just really fascinated by the picture of this man that comes out of her songwriting.And I think what we're getting is a picture of what that relationship was like.And I certainly can relate to the.experience of like just having something that's like undefined and back and forth and you you don'tfeel like you're on solid ground can blow something into stress and like that sort of drama,tortured sadness that we get so much of this. But like Harry Stiles mind fucker is the thing Ithink he did by accident. I'm not justifying it at all because that means that he wastoo stupid to pay attention to what was going on.
01:19:34But, like, I love Harry so much.Harry is the movie feels like a movie guy.And that juxtaposition, I just think, is very funny.I think she spent the first 34 years of her life,not the young ones, but let's just call it ages, you know,15 to 34, with guys who did not know who they were or what they wanted.and it created wonderful art.It appears to me that for the first time,
01:20:05she is with a guy who knows exactly what he wants.And he wants Taylor Swift.And I am fascinated to see how it manifests itself in her art.I just wanted to be done without Jack.Interesting.Interesting.All right, track five is all you had to do is stay.Another example of an important little moment,
01:20:37the high stay is.that I think they hit. I was really into this for your record. Yeah. It worked for me,but this is a song that is one of my least favorite on 1989. I don't agree with you on that.That's okay. I just, I had forgotten that it was a track five. I forgot that style and out of thewoods are before it and bad blood. I mean, blank space. But I think it's, again, maybe that was a clue.Like maybe this conversation that we're having about howthe vault and how she's presenting this albumreveals a little bit about what
01:21:12was driving her and what was compelling.That fits.Narrative-wise, it does.This to me, I like this song more than you do,but this to me is one of those songs where,you know, you remember 1989 for the singles and for the big hitsand then you start going through the album one by one.And it's not a lot of skips.
01:21:35Just not a lot of skips on this thing.Yeah.We've talked about the collaborators a lot.I just want to make sure if I haven't said this explicitly.I think Chris Rowe did his job.Yeah.Like, I think he really did his job here.I get why she's turning this over to him.
01:21:54Yeah.The fidelity is unprecedented in terms of artists who've tried to do this.Go be Max Martin is a hard ask.And he's not accomplishing that 100% of the time,because that would be impossible.But I think he's doing a really good job.Agree.But I think if we are honest about who her most important collaborator was,
01:22:26it's the guy who wasn't in the room and that's Max Martin.Not because, like, oh, if Max was here, it would be,this is not a criticism of the re-record.You can just tell the difference.Some people are going to like it.Some people aren't going to like it.Sounds like you and for the two of us,there are songs where we do like it.
01:22:41There's songs where we don't, right?But he's not there,and it's just a reminderthat Max Martin is a vibe.Max Martin is a vibe.Easter eggs.Let's see.So we talked about Boat Girl.
01:22:59We've talked about the fact that we arein our Harold Stiles era.I mean,the lyrical.references to him, I almost wouldn't call Easter eggs because they're just, it's not quite dear John,but it's close. It's close. And I buy now more than ever that on the first Harry Styles album,you know, I think I'm in on two ghosts being about Taylor now.Same lips red, same eyes blue, same white shirt, couple more tattoos.
01:23:35What about from the dining table?the girl who looked just like you.Yes.Your new girl is my clone?That's a bar.Your new girl is my clone.For sure.Yeah.
01:23:53There just was an intensityto this relationship.I wish that Harry was a bit more overtabout whether he feels the same way.I wonder, I secretly wonder,if that feeling is somewhat unrequited.the feeling of anger over how it ended?Or what...
01:24:12No, just the infatuation of...Lithium white-hot intensity of the whole thing.I wonder if it was like a forbidden fruit thingwhere she'd said, like, I'm not dating right now.I'm just hanging out with my friends.And then kind of hits you, like, a ton of bricks.Yeah, I just wonder if it mattered as much to Harryas it clearly mattered to her.
01:24:36Well, and that's what, like, I think...Taylor was giving deepdeep romanceand Harry was maybegiving a little bitof fuck boyYeahYeah
01:24:49Thank you for sayingsomething thatI don't thinkI could have articulatedin that wayTale's oldest timeLike that's thethat's the
01:24:59potential for itto have beena little bitof an unrequitedthingYeahBut the thingThat's interesting
01:25:07is likeI think sheI don't knowif she hauntshimI mean I don't thinkhe haunts herromantically now.
01:25:14I think he haunts her musically.Listen, if I'm Travis, I'm nottaking her to love on tour.I'll tell you that.Love on tour somehow in this worldstill happening.Yeah. No, that's a man who iscomfortable with himself and his masculinity,
01:25:32but he ain't bringing her to love on tour.Taylor can go to love on tour on her ownif she wants to. I don't know that she wants to. He's happyto have her go around the room and talk to anybody,but when Harry Styles walks in that room,my dude is going to pull up.I mean, I don't think that's exactly like a rare.It's not the first time that would have happened, I would imagine.
01:25:55I'd do that for sure.Harry Styles walks in a room.We are leaving.We are.Because if I don't get you out of there right now, you're leaving with him.I don't know how to articulate this because I love Harry Styles,and I think he's a brilliant musician and I love his work.Taylor is not the only, like, arena in which this has happened.
01:26:17He is a magnet for, like, serious stakes get built up around Harry Styles, a fundamentally silly man.Yeah, but he's a force of nature.And I'm just, I'm just interested in that.He is here to steal yo girl.But, like, that's the irony of that song.Yeah.Everybody wants to steal my girl.Fuck that, Harry.
01:26:53That's you, brother.He's a vessel,is what I think I would say.We talked about boat girl.I'm thrilled that that was brought up.Yeah.That meant a lot to me.The blue dress on the boat,
01:27:15she's just so sad and pouty,and there it is.What did you think about the prologue?The written prologue that came out.before this thing.I mean, I'll just, I'll say it, I'll say it, but I'm going to tee it up for you because I want to get your feedback.The most stunning part of it for me was unequivocally the line where she said, I started hanging out with my female friends because I thought that that would keep people from, like, talking about my sex.life and it didn't stop them from doing that.
01:27:57Is that, let me ask you, is that a gentle admonishment of the gailers?Yeah, totally.I mean, first of all, it's not the first, like, she's done that, right?She had the tweet on her birthday in the 1989 era that was like the present I would likefrom the medias for them to stop saying that I'm dating my friends.So this has happened.Not a lot.And I think it's a tricky balance for her because she also, in the prologue, she mentioned
01:28:35sort of the discovery of allyship.And I think it's a delicate, there's a representation piece of that that I think sheis conscious of towing that line.I guess, I guess what's interesting.What else could that possibly mean?Yeah.That's a, I'm not doing it with Carly-Loss.Yeah, it's the first time I've really understood that there was some hurt associated with it.
01:29:03And I think that's hard to get your head around.I mean, she has a very close relationship, you know, with the LGBTQ community.They've supported her.They've lifted her up.They are just such an important part of the fan base.I don't think that's the access for it.I think it's, I have completely reshaped my life so that there will stop being these dumb slide shows of all the guys I'm dating.And I'm doing it in a way where I thought that if I just went out with my friends and was hanging out with women all the time, that would do it.
01:29:39Which is no small thing, right?Like a woman in her young 20s being like, I'm not going to date right now.Like that's not what she wanted to do, right?But she felt like she had to and was trying to embrace it.And then to be met with, well, it doesn't matter because there's just going to be speculation in this direction, too.Yeah.That's a little bit more of like, I think there's an interesting dynamic because some of it is media and some of it as fans.Yeah.
01:30:08Right?And when it's professional media members who should know better, I think that's the conversation that she wants to have.And it's a little bit trickier when it's people who love her and fans of hers.who might want to see themselves in herand are excited about it from that.So it's delicate, but...That's the delicacy.That's why I'm surprised
01:30:31that she went right at that.And maybe she's just speaking to the mediaand not the fan base.But it's rare that she pierces the veilor pops the bubbleof whatever theory,fan theory,gets built up around her,
01:30:44generally because I think she knowsthat those things are good for her,whether true or not, right?And she lets the community run with it.And a lot of times,she plays into it.it, right? And she'll toss a bone and sort of fuel the fire whether it's, whether those things aretrue or not. I mean, I think about the, I mean, she's always paying attention, right? I think about the
01:31:04no, it's Becky stuff. I think about the more Lana stuff. Like, she, she has her finger on thepulse, but this, this is a, this is a rare occurrence in which she addresses something, one of thosebubbles of theories that we've built around Taylor Swift, that she takes it head on and says,actually, that hurt. And I didn't expect that.Interesting. But maybe she's only talking to the media and not the fan base.Yeah. Or it's how it gets talked about and some of it's okay and some of it's not. I wonder if she,I don't know, there's a world in which she's getting ready to release this album and she playsthe concert in L.A. where
01:31:51Carly shows up and she's in the300 level or whatever.And Taylor's riding home and she's watching the coverageand she just pulls out a pen and is like,I'm going to say something.I don't know if it's out of the question.But it was that that was what stood out to me too.But also, again,
01:32:10I think that prologue, what we talked about,just centered this album as a moreas a personal storyin a way that Idon't like the I hear it. I always hear the sounds first because the sounds are just so amazing.But that helped me center it in a way where I was listening more carefully for like,what is she trying to, you know, what is she communicating? And that's not to say that obviouslylike some of the stuff. Blank space. Of course you're getting the personal and the effect of what
01:32:47it says about how she thinks people see her and how she feels about how.people see her and all of that. But in general, I think the prologue helped me hear the re-recordthrough those ears. Very helpful contextualization of this one. Sometimes we think about pop musicas being less emotive and less sort of meaningful. It's a reminder that through all of it,She's a songwriter first and a very personal, emotionally invested songwriter.And I did not learn a whole lot more about Speak Now from the re-records.I like, I can see you.I love that song.
01:33:33I like Electric Touch.And those are songs that I go back to.But I didn't learn a whole lot more about that era.And as you and I have talked about, like, she's not erasing that era.But she certainly is, you know, dilute, not diluting, but she's sort of signaling that she's moved past that.But this, this, I learned a lot about her and what was going on for her and these songs and what they were about from the additional, the vault tracks and the writing that she did around this album.It was, it has changed the way I think about this piece of art.normally we ask if there's anything that needed to be cut,
01:34:27but cuts are not really the point of the re-recordings.We're doing archival, we're getting into the vault.So instead I'm going to ask, is there anything on thisthat should have been given the Yasified girl at home treatment?Should any of these songs have just been like,you know what? This didn't work.Let's take a new whirl at it.I guess I would have thought maybe Wonderland,
01:35:06but I really like the way.that Wonderland?Slade.I love original Wonderland,but I thought the re-recorded Wonderland.Like the AAs are so good.She's doing the Rihanna thing.No, I mean, that's the thing,
01:35:27is 1989 is so tight as an albumthat I just,that this was one that would be super hard to cut.I mean, what I would say isyou could have cut the vaultand put it out as yet anotheredition of Midnights.Well, so, okay,
01:35:47I don't want to play into this because I think there's a piece of the,there's a piece of the slutvoice memothat is being taken a little bit out of context.And that's not the only time on 1989 that I've done that.I did that on Blank Space.And I think when I came down to having to pick songs for the album,I think I thought, okay, well, I'm going to choose blank space.
01:36:10And unfortunately, I had to make some tough to say,in terms of what to put on the track list.Saying that she was like,it was either going to be slut or blank space when really,like she doesn't present it as though that was a difficult choice.She just said these were two songs where I was sort of playing with the idea of how I was perceived.And I ended up going with blank space.I do just want to imagine for a second,
01:36:38the world in which we all hear blank space for the first time two nights ago.What would we be doing right now?I would not be okay.This podcast would be like three hours of screaming.It's an important...The video, just on its own,is a very important part of the lore.The golf clubs in the show
01:37:02and the breaking of the car.Totally.Very important part of this album.And the crazy eyesand the biting the appleand the whole.horse, like, all of it.Again, she did not say that this was a choice she agonized over.
01:37:23And I got, like, I had a friend, somebody texted me something being like, this is ridiculous.Like, this can't possibly have happened.And it was because there was a headline being like, Taylor Swift reveals that slut wasalmost included over blank space.And I was like, that's not what she said.That didn't happen.That's dumb.Stop saying that.
01:37:43Fake news.Do you wish...But it would have been wild.I wish for her to take a second passat a song called Slut exclamation point.Like, can there be a slut exclamation point, part two?Now with more slut.Now with more slut.
01:38:08Yeah, I'm here for it.I mean, George Michael wrote three, I want your sexes.Can we get two sluts?I think that would be great.I think that would be great.It's not that it, yeah, the song itself is fine.And maybe that's on me for seeing the title and just getting a little bit out over my skis in terms of this is going to be like a cheeky, cheeky banger.It's what we wanted.
01:38:51It is what I wanted.It's what we wanted.But the song, she can't help what the song is.Yeah, that's true.Melodically, I like it.I like the low bass notes.It really grew on meover the course of my listening.
01:39:12It's not the song's fault.No.Yeah, it's a fine song.All right.I had for my Tom Hiddleston Awardthe thing about the new Romantics lyricsin the album poster.Maybe I'm a shit show,
01:39:25but I'm fun and kind of cute.I think it has to be.There's just no.It is the defining lineof the 1909 era. And again, there are parts of the end product here that cleaned up some of theshit show. And I think that's what we notice is being a little bit different. But you know what?She's cleaned up the shit show. So it's fitting. Haven't we all? What do you think happens nextfrom here? She goes on tour. Yeah. I don't think reputation is very far behind.
01:40:05the, in one of the lyricvideos,rep was maybe written in the sandsomewhere on the beach. I couldn'tsee it, but it was, I sawthe TikTok. Yeah, I thinkshe's done the work.And it now makes sense to me
01:40:22why the urgencyof being in the studio, because sheunderstood she was going to go to Asia and Europefor a full year plusin South America.So, if she wasgoing to put this stuff out. Like, it's super hard to do that jumping across time zone, so on and so forth,because this tour itself is such a physical feat, doing that and singing as much as she was.
01:40:48And then go, so I get now why we've seen her so much in the studio trying to finish these things.And potentially documenting new music, too. Let's not put that out of the question. But we're going to see reputation soon. And we should.I have no idea when we're going to see debut.So interesting.I don't know.I mean...It's going to be hard for her to even put that outto go through the hype cycle, right?
01:41:15Maybe she puts them out togetherjust to get it done.Here are two albums.Can you fucking believethe same person made these?I can't.And I did it.I love it.
01:41:27I love it.Oh my gosh.The, like,our song is going to be the B-sideto don't play.blame me.Honestly, no notes.Perfect idea.
01:41:52Good job, Nathan.Can't wait.Thank you.He's so chaotic.I would love it if she did that.I think she just has to do it with debut.It's going to be a little weird, but it's also going to be really fun.Like, the energy of our song being one of the being the sing-along in the Ears movie, I think
01:42:14is the energy.that she should try to capture for debut.It's just like, hey, remember these songs?Let's sing them together.That's fun.Also, I wrote these when I was 15.Holy shit.How did that happen?
01:42:32They're so good.Yeah.She just, and then she just needs to not use the hair straightener.Hold hands with Travis.No, stop.Stop.Going to 12 James.I'm going to beat you.
01:42:46I am beating you with this.golf club from the blank space video and performance.If she go, all of the promotion.No more hair commentary from you.All of the promotion of this album that she needs is to walk out into the paparazzi blitz,holding Travis Kelsey's hand, having not done anything to the hair so that it's supercurled up, just like the debut days.Go to some restaurant, again, 12 James or 27 Frank or whatever.
01:43:18the fuck, you know, number name restaurant she chooses to go to tonight.And just have that be the launch.It'll work.Just one time.All right.Best lyric.In our original review, this went to Blank Space, of course.And I'm thrilled that she got Starbucks Lovers, right?
01:43:40I would offer the acid rock line.I don't have to pretend I like acid rock or that I'd like to be on a megiat with important men who think important thoughts.Fun.Like it.There for it.Into it.Yeah. We're agreeing a ton.I, yes, it is the best lyric. My favorite lyric more than ever is, do you remember, just because of the way that it sort of haunts and now fully contextualizes everything that went on in the album.
01:44:25All right, let's grade this thing.You get to go first, Nora.All right. I think it's an a minus for the recreation.I think 1989 will always be a flying colors 100% a plus album.Yeah.It's just like I feel a calmness talking about this re-record that I do not normally,I'm not normally able to inhabit when covering Taylor Swift because I just want everythingto be perfect for her.
01:45:04This just is.just so good. It's like all of the anxiety of like, oh, what if people criticize it? What if peopledon't like it? It's 1989. Yeah. It's fine. Who would dare? It's fine. I will, I mean,I think that redoing this is incredibly difficult. And I think that they deserve an A for therecreation of it. On a degree of difficulty. On a degree of difficulty. On a degree ofdifficulty scale. On a vibe scale, it's a B plus for me. But I, again, put it on in the same way thatcooking does not always yield the exact same result every time. Are you hungry right now? Is thatwhat's going on? I'm not. I just, it's the similar, you know, the creative process. I think we should
01:46:01celebrate how close they came and celebrate the,the reality that the creative process is not replicable,that you can't just plug this shit into machines and get 100% the same thing.I think everybody who worked on this project did an excellent, impeccable job.And it gives me great relief and joy that, A, they did such a good job,and B, it isn't perfect, and that there is a great relief and joy that, A, they did such a good job, and B, it isn't perfect.and that there is something that will always be uniqueabout the moment in time
01:46:39that was captured on the original 1989,but as a standalone substitutein service of the armythat follows this womanand is supporting the reclamation of her art,this thing gets an A.It makes me more interestedand I think more excited
01:47:00for Reputation Taylor's version,which is going to be another incrediblytough thing to recreatejust all the sounds of that album.Way more difficult, I think.Even than this.1989.But this had some of
01:47:14that,some of the pieces of those challenge,of that challenge.Yeah.Happened here and they did well with it.There's the video of Jack and Taylorworking the lyrics of Getaway Car.And you're in the Motel Bar.
01:47:32I'm in the Getaway Car.left you in the motel bar.Took the money in the bag and I stole the money.Put the money in the bag and I sold the keys.That was the last time you ever saw me.I know a driveway car left you in the hotel bar.Yes, that's so sick.And in this moment where they, you know,
01:47:51stole the keys, that was the last time you ever saw me,put the money in the bag, sold the keys.Like, as they both settle on it together in the moment,sort of improvising it,and then they know they've got it,there's just that euphoric energy around it.that gets captured in the recording originally.And invariably, as time passes,
01:48:10it's hard to just recreate that lightning in a bottle.So that's the difference between old 1989and Taylor's version 1989.It's going to be a very difficult thing for them to do on reputation,and to land that plane will be behind the scenesan absolute feat and accomplishment if they're able to do it.Because by the way, emotionally, she carried a hell of a lot of anger.There's not anger in 1989.
01:48:41There is anger on reputation.And for her to replicate that, as good of an actress as she is,it's going to be an incredible challenge in its own way,a very, very interesting piece of art.Although maybe, you know, very different music from Shake It Off, obviously,but maybe there's a little bit of a piece of she's been crushing a lot.of those songs live on a nightly, you know, on a multi-times a week basis. So I wonder if,if that helps to some degree. We're going to find out. Nathan, what a delight. It's always
01:49:19fun to get to talk to you about a Taylor Swift release or re-release. This has been every single album.As always, I'm Nora Pinceati. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to Kai and with Malin for producingthis episode and to you for listening.
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