Every Single Album - ‘1989 (Taylor’s Version)’ | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Episode Date: October 29, 2023

Nora and Nathan break down the latest release in Taylor Swift’s re-recording project: ‘1989.’ They discuss if Max Martin not producing affected the re-recordings (1:00), which songs sound the most similar and different from their originals (35:51), and the five new vault tracks that almost sound like they could be found on ‘Midnights’ (51:17). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What would you do if you got scammed? Would you suffer in silence, or would you do something about it? Well, I got scammed once, and this is the story of what I did. I'm Justin Sales, the host of the Wedding Scammer, a true crime podcast from The Ringer. And for seven episodes, we're hunting a comment. A guy with a lot of aliases, a guy who's ruined a lot of weddings. And with the help of some friends, I just might be able to catch him. Listen to the Wedding Scammer on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

And welcome to every single album, Taylor Swift. I'm Nora Pinciotti. And as always, I am here with Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, a very happy 1989 Taylor's version to you. Same to you. It's finally here. It really is. This is a big moment.

This is a big album. I like, obviously we'll talk about all sorts of things. But my top line reaction is not really about Taylor's version. It's just about this album. It's really good. This is a really good album. I can't believe it exists. I can't believe it's in the world.

It's in the world again in a second form. But, wow, I just wanted to say that before we get started. 1989 is very good. 1989 is my favorite Taylor Swift album. And I love all, I love lots of the Taylor Swift albums. But 1989 is, it is the best Taylor Swift album, I think. And we're going to talk a lot about this. So let's just set the table first.

We love this album. It's the best. So much of this re-record, for me, has contextualized in hindsight what was going on for her. It has reframed for me the way that I think about the album, mostly because through this re-record process, and in particular, I think through the vault, she's kind of told us what this record is about and who a lot of these songs on this album are about and we sort of knew it but now we know it

I mean look I think there's maybe a dueling the vault is interesting right because there's this dueling sense of you read the prologue that she put out with it and you get into some of the stuff on Slut which obviously we're going to talk about. And there's such a theme of like,

leave me alone. I'm just trying to hang out with my friends and maybe date like a normal 20 year old. But then also, there's maybe a guy who we might know, who we might have podcasted about a time or two. Just a little. Takes up some space in here.

Man. Where to even begin, Nora, because it does. This is, this album is a great carbon copy. Yeah. More so than

maybe any of the other re-records other than, other than fearless, I guess, but fearless I remember receiving with such a just like, it was so new, right? And it was such a like, oh my gosh, she really can make these things sound same. But that was, Fearless was such an

easier project. Right. And a much easier challenge in terms of doing that. This one, I had a real reaction of like, oh, this is 1989. She remade 1989. And I spent some time texting with people who have better ears than I do and, you know, reading reviews from people who really got into the nitty gritty on the production about where some of the differences are and some of them you can hear and, you know, it's more quantized and blah, blah, blah, blah.

blah, blah. And I like talking about that stuff and we're definitely going to. And it's interesting because it's interesting to me to sort of live in these songs. But I'm glad that you brought up what a good carbon copy this is. Because one, that is just what it sounded like to me when I, when I listened to it. I went more so than some of the other ones. Like, oh, here's 1989. She just remade it. And then the other part of that is that, you know, some of those conversations, I think happen in the context of how successful of a project is this going to be. And we've had that conversation. We'll continue to have it because we want Taylor to succeed and we're interested in how

that's going. But I also think that we're getting to a point where it's time to put pieces of that to rest. There is enough data to show that this is a wildly successful project. and I think even if some of these songs weren't as effective carbon copies, it would continue to be a wildly successful project. The data shows that every time she does one of these things, you know, it eats up a huge amount of the original streams.

And 1989 is such a big album. It's such a lasting album. It's such an album that people continue to play the big hits off of over and over that she's got an opportunity. It's a third of the streaming from the catalog that she didn't own outright. That's why this, from a business perspective, is so important, right? If the re-recording project, the purpose of it is to reclaim her art from people who claim to own it, but she doesn't believe should own it, then 1989 was the biggest re-recorded project. it will, we expect,

undercut the biggest part of the catalog that is in the hands of someone else. So from a pure business and purpose perspective, mission accomplished. We should talk about why it took so long to get here. And to your point, it's going to be fascinating to see how someone who is at the moment,

the peak of her fame, which when she first put out this record, felt like she could, couldn't get any bigger. But now she's actually found a different atmospheric level to inhabit. It's going to be very interesting to see how this album streams on a go-forward basis relative to the old one. But I just, I want to free us up a little bit to be able to talk about all of these songs, including some of the changes that we can hear between the original versions and the new version. I want to free us up a little bit to be able to have that conversation without it being a,

is this going to work? Is this going to be okay? Are people going to listen to it more than the originals? Because I just, I think the only honest assessment is that the case is pretty closed on that. People listen to the Taylor's versions. They're very good at their stated aim. And this one in particular, I think, is going to have no trouble doing that. So we're going to talk about the difference.

but I just, I don't want it to be like a, well, what if it doesn't work? Because I don't have that concern here. That's not the question. You're right. Thanks, Gabble. I would like to also free us from the discussion of whether 1989 is good.

Like, that's not in... I am freed of that. I am unburdened. Okay. Okay. Well, I hope the audience will go there with us. It's like one of the best albums ever. Yes.

1989 is fucking awesome. It is a little, it's funny, like how, I think part of what I said at the top of just like, shit, this is a good record, comes from that. And like, we're not critics in the traditional sense, right? Like, we're fans. But there's a little bit of like anxiety or just like, oh yeah. It's 1989. Like, what do you say about it? This rules.

I want to run around and dance to it. Great album. Good work, Taylor. 10 out of 10. Yeah. But there is a little bit of anxiety because you're like, hey, why are we repainting the Mona Lisa again?

Oh, right. We're going to reclaim the art. Okay, I'm on board with this. But like, we're not going to fuck it up, right? Like, we're not going to... I mean, I'm on board with the project in service of... I mean, that's why I think it's important

to talk about the business context. It's just a reminder of why we got here and why we're going along with this project. We really, really love 1989, but I get why we have to be here. I just, please don't mess it up for us. And she did not mess it up for us. It is still wonderful.

I will stream this album in support of the cause over old 1989. But Nora, are you going to miss old 1989? Not that much. So, okay. Really? These songs work. Like, I don't know what to tell you. They work for me.

Well, so it's song by song, right? And I have said, if an original works for me better than a Taylor's version, I listen to the original. I think it's okay. But we usually start with talking about the biggest song in the album. And I think we should talk about blank space because I will listen to Blank Space Taylor's version. Absolutely no challenge. Same. Yeah.

I mean, I think this for me is one of the songs that I guess I fell a little bit more in love with with blank space. And Bad Blood is the other one for me through the re-record. I'm all in. Did you wish a little bit on Bad Blood that she'd included the, hey, stop. Yeah, of course.

I probably needed. that more than Kendrick with Valde to Kendra Yeah, okay, fine, but I do think

this is one She wasn't doing anything. Yeah. I mean, there are, we should talk about why, like,

where is Max Martin? Why does Shellback show up? With Ariana Grande. As a producer, only on Wildest dreams. I mean, Christopher Rao does a fine job, but I think I have more respect for Max Martin after

listening to these re-records. I thought they'd struggle a bit more with the recreation sonically of the parts. I think they got all the colors right, and they painted perfectly by number. I think they didn't totally get. the ending blend. And like, for lack of a better word, I'm not sure the vibes are the same on every re-record. I mean, there, it's like, I mean,

I'm slightly hung under today, Nora, because my brother's in town and we cook last night. He really gets you. It's always, like, on every single album recording when your brother's in town the next morning, and Nathan's always a little worse for the wear. But I think sometimes, like, it brings something out of you.

Yeah, well, okay, fair enough. But like, we cooked last night, okay? And I make these awesome potatoes ogreta, okay? And it's a very simple recipe. There's only like four things in it. But like, I can use the same ingredients every time and follow the like age-old recipe. But sometimes it just comes out of the pan

tasting slightly different. And this album is going to be, be more controversial than I imagine because some people like the different taste, even though it's the same ingredients, and baked in the same pan and in the same freaking oven at the same temperature for the same time.

Some people don't, but I have to say, you can tell. And music is fascinating in that way, right? There's so much about its creation that is contingent on the air that's in the room, on the position of the things

in the room, what's hanging on the walls, the equipment you use, the weather, not to mention your body and the physical state of your body and the emotional state that you're in at that very moment. It goes into making something. It's why I think AI music is never going to replace authentic artistry, because the same artist can go in and recreate with the same ingredients and the potatoes just tastes a little different on this 1989. The potatoes. So you missed the old one a little bit. Is that true? there are parts of the old one that I miss. There is a vibe on the outro of style

where there's just this wash and wave of sound and that groove that just gets me every time. I can just tell the difference. I'm with you that when I put it on last night while I was making the potatoes, like it serves its purpose. It's totally great. Well, style I do think, is one of the ones

that's the most different. The funniest thing I saw is somebody say that it sounded like the guitar has a head cold. Yeah. Like it's just a little stuffy. Yeah. And I do think that that's, you know, you can hear it there. I think when we're talking about recreating the work of like literally the producer of,

of this century, we got to put that in context. Right? Like, Max Martin is very good at his job. He's excellent at his job. And I appreciate it more than ever. Yeah. So I think it's probably only right that we come away with a little bit of like, man, hard to do what that guy does. Yeah. And yeah. I mean, why do you think he's not here? Is it relationship or is it contractual? It's one of the two. Is probably not interested in doing this. Like, not every artist wants to get in the, you know, go back into a studio and take on the challenge. And it's an interesting.

challenge, but it's just a different challenge than Max is normally doing, or even someone like Taylor's normally doing, where you go in there and what you're trying to do is, let's make this song that we've already recorded sound the same, doing it again, however many years later. Like, that just might not be interesting to him. But it's objectively weird that Shellback shows up just on Wildest Dreams and not all these others. I agree with that. I, like, look, these are kind of bizarre. Swedish dudes. But is it because sonically

on wildest dreams? I mean, that's one of the easiest ones to recreate. Maybe they needed him to, he did just enough that they had to give him a producer credit. I mean, when you pull all of this apart, what's really under, if you crack these questions that I'm asking,

I want to know, I want the documentary on how they made this. Because it suggests that there's been some consultation. Hey, do you remember which Noyman Mike was my voice on on this one? Like, hey, were these delays? Like, what was the speed of the delay? Like, all of the like nuanced technical detail around how they created each sound, they must have been consulting the guys to try to just get to some

aura of recreation. But if they did that too much, my sense is contractually, they probably had a line they couldn't cross because then it would be in violation of whatever the master. Now, it's not like the owners of her masters are going to sue her in this moment. That sounds like a really bad call. But I do think they were working

within some constraints legally around what they could do. And so Shelbeck's showing up on wildest dreams when he's not showing up on blank space or bad blood or style I think is part of the reason why you can tell the difference and it's not what I expected Nora

like I thought when we went way up close to the painting we would see differences in the bits of detail when you put headphones on and go in and go back and forth between the two versions like the attention to detail is almost immaculate where you start to feel it at least where I start to feel it is when you go out to 30,000 feet

and it's just vibe check and it's different. And some people are saying, things sound crisper. The mix is more, you know, the parts are more isolated. I discovered congas on new romantics

that I didn't even know existed and I want to hear how you felt about that song. But it is, you know, you learn some new parts that didn't exist before. But when you go all the way in, you can't tell the difference

between these things. It's just not what I, expect it was going to happen. Isn't part of that just the nature of the improvements in the equipment that they're doing this stuff on? Isn't it just easier to hear little distinct threads in a song than the quality of recording used to be able to provide? Yes, that is some of it. But I guess I'm arguing that I think some of it is the Max Martin vibes. And that the absence. The mystical vibes.

in some sort of like bizarre Scandinavian accent, magical vibes. Yeah, I don't know why I just did leprechaun, but I don't either, but it's fine. We'll go with it. They're both in the north. They're not that far from each other. It's fine.

Sort of live in the woods and like forage for mushrooms. And again, this doesn't make the new ones bad or different. I enjoy hearing synth parts that when you go back and compare the two, oh, yeah, it's there. It's just more present. And the same guy,

these things, right? Serban Ganea, the guy whose name, I will never know exactly how to pronounce until I meet him. But he mixed these two things. And again, when you're mixing an album, you've got headphones on, you're listening to it in your car, you're listening to it in speakers, you go to a bunch of different places to see how it all resonates. And I think he mirrored a lot of what we heard. It's just there is a distinctness to all of these ingredients. You can taste all of the ingredients more than you taste the dish itself on the re-record. You're more conscious of the ingredients than you were the first time around. Do you think Wildest Dreams was recorded fairly early because of the horse movie? I'm going to call you spirit. I don't know,

but why is out of the woods on the duck movie? Why does she keep putting these songs, sinking them in weird animal animated movies. This isn't about migration. It's about adventure. Is that a little scary shoe? I'm not going to try to answer that question. What is with the duck movie? She's quite a woman.

I don't, do you know, like, can you explain the plot of the duck movie? Maybe we'll have to get back to that. I'm confused about the duck movie. But it has out of the woods in it. So like maybe. Yes. There's a mallard.

duck that is crazy, funny, silly, wacky kind of guy. And he goes on a wild journey. It's like Dora the Explorer. It's like just plug and play. There's going to be three obstacles. You're going to get through it at the end. We're going to high five and go to the next episode. Whatever.

The duck, it seems cool. I can't see the forest for the trees. I don't feel like I understand the duck, but that's okay. That's not on us. It's not on us. But more people are going to see the movie because she synced it. But the duck movie is recent, right? Like the trailer for the duck movie came out recently.

Whereas horse movie... Well, here you go. So here you go. Because what you're really asking is when did these get recorded? Well, I'm asking if Shelbeck might have been involved in Wildest Dreams because Wildest Dreams was recorded relatively early in the process, which might have conflicted less with a little something called the Ares Tour, which, I mean, we've seen her during the weeks, you know, in and out of the studio. right? But I wonder if just the circumstances of touring, if she was still working on this and doing stuff, got her in a place where if there was anything that she could do with Jack, with Christopher Rowe, with the sort of usual suspects who mold more of their schedule around

her and also don't live in Sweden sometimes, if that was. was just a thing that made more sense to do. If it made more sense, assuming, and I think correctly, that it was going to be sufficient to make this work, to, you know, pop into the studio, record a vocal with Jack, record a vocal with Chris. Cool. You know, take it from here. You're asking the right question. My own belief is that when Taylor Swift calls, you answer the phone. Amogen Heap answered the phone. You're still all Ryan Tedder answered the phone.

All respect to those people, they're not Max Martin. Okay. In stature and also in like Max is like persnickety. He's like a weird, like, I'm not sure that if you're 2023 Taylor,

do you really want, like he's such a perfectionist? Do you, do you, like, of course you want that guy in the studio, but do you really want that guy being like, do it again? that it's perfect like this, say your syllables like this,

like doing all that Max Martin stuff? I think the answer to that question is yes. And so I'm asking, did they have a personal falling out or contractually does it not work? Because most of the work on this album can happen when she's not in the studio at this point,

because you're just recreating something in the moment they had to be together and, you know, there's video of them kicking the ground to make the sound effects and they're all around the mics on the ba-p-pap-pap. on shake it off, all that stuff.

But the only thing that they would have had to do together is her vocal track. But this brings up the question that again, we need to know of how exactly this thing was recorded. I will tell you what my... I just, hold on.

What would they have had a personal falling out over? I don't know. I don't know. She doesn't like meatballs? You never know. It may have... been something related to copyright ownership. I'd have nothing on this.

I'm just saying it's super weird that he's not on this when in every other case the original producer is involved and then you got Shelback, who's his right-hand dude dropping in for the cameo on Wildest Dreams. And I hear your point, but let me give you what is

the working theory that I have about this album. And the weirdest thing that's happened as a part of these re-records is the store changed to 1989. There was a bunch of signals that the 1989 release was coming. And then it stopped. It just stopped.

And we got nothing until midnight's. And my working theory on this is that they were working... Jack was in the studio, working on the vault in particular for 1989 and Midnights broke out.

They just feel the vault tracks here have very close cousins on midnights. And we'll get into how close these things are. But now that we don't talk, has a lot of labyrinth in it. Say Don't Go sounds... It's got some clean. It's got some wildest dreams in it. For sure, it's got a bunch of other things.

We'll talk about it. But, like, they're suburban legends. I had the fantasy that maybe your mismatched star signs would surprise the whole school. Very close cousin to Mastermind. Once upon a time, the planet's in the face and all the stars aligned. Yeah. And so I want to know when exactly they started on this process, because it feels like maybe they got in the studio a lot earlier than we thought on 1989,

because we know a number of these songs have been around for a while. At least on some of it. Yeah. At least on some of it. So when you hear, when you do the forensic analysis of exactly what sounds like what and what the little changes are, you hear a story about the timeline of the re-recording project,

the timeline of Midnights, the relationship between what sounds were inspiring, Taylor, what sounds were inspiring, Jack, maybe. and something that took off potentially from this project already having started to be in motion. I get that. I think that's interesting. And it's super interesting. And I also think that that could reveal some of the stuff about, you know, by the time Midnights is out or coming out, her life and her plans and her schedule is heating up to such a degree that maybe you end up recording.

parts of this in a slightly different way than the very earliest songs could have been done. And maybe that explains the lack of... You're asking the right question, which is we saw her a ton in the

studio while she was on the road. But like, Maddie Healy was in that studio. Like... Zoe Kravitz was in that studio. I mean, a lot of people have been in that studio. And at some point, we're going to find out whether they were doing this, whether they're working on reputation,

whether there's new music. I mean, that's the intrigue. Yeah, but those are people who, those are people who sort of like exist in, other than Maddie, but he did for a time, like exist in Taylor's orbit. Yeah.

Where you can, you know, she can have a couple days off and go out for a nice dinner with her friends, and one of them also happens to have, have been in the studio for her with her for a few hours that day. Right. And I see her doing a lot of that right now, which makes sense because she's really busy. Is now the time to talk about her going to dinner with her friends?

Oh my God. I'm obsessed with the New York magazine piece about what it's like when Taylor Swift goes into a restaurant, which I encouraged anyone to read. It is paywalt, but it is worth it, I swear. The best detail I will share with you. from that story is that at one of her nights out

where the crew sounded like a good crew it was Taylor Greta Gerwig, Zoe Kravitz and Laura Dern and maybe some other people um

Zoe Kravitz tried to bust the table afterwards which I think the restaurant thought was like like nice sort of nice and nice

that a celebrity Taylor clearing cans and plates in the suite at the Chiefs game? But no, it's different because it's really weird. It's a restaurant that's somebody's job. Like, you're not supposed to do that. I think it's so weird that at the end of the meal, Zoe Krammits, got up and was like, let me go back to the kitchen. I'm going to take these plates.

What? How could she goes to these restaurants that all have like, a number and then a one word in him. She's at Zero Bond. She's at Nobu 57. She's at four Charles. I think you need like your own Taylor Swift restaurant. I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, you know, 13 sunshine. Yeah, it's going to add up to 13. If I have a restaurant called 13 Sunshine, she's coming. We should get on that. She sounds like a good guest. All of the, like, like, again, the best line from the piece was one of the guys in Emilio's just was like, what can I tell you?

She eats, she pays, she gets the fuck out. It's so good. What is she doing at Bradley Cooper's House, by the way? Why is Bradley Cooper's House suddenly the central meeting place for all the... Is that just like if you're a, like, notable female, like, going to Bradley Cooper's house is like going to the Louvre or something? It's like you've made it if you go to Bradley Cooper's house. Why is she randomly coming out of Bradley Cooper's house with Blake lively?

Well, and then Bradley, but then Bradley Cooper was, maybe they're trading real estate. Yeah. Oh, do you think they've done like an Airbnb house swap? Yeah. I mean, Airbnb's like getting canceled. So maybe that's what's going on. It's just, you know, you can take. He and Gigi are in Rhode Island in exchange for her in the place in New York.

Yeah, why not? And then Sophie's, Sophie's in the... Sophie's in her place. Nobody's living in the right house. But the pap's Yeah, maybe that's what everybody's up to. Maybe they just shift around and they're just confusing the pop, I don't know.

That would be fun. She and Bradley Cooper are friends. It's fine. Why shouldn't she be at his house? I just, it doesn't make sense. When did Bradley Cooper enter the cinematic universe? I don't know. Well, it's somewhat,

related, right? Because they're friends. And he's maybe friends with Ryan Reynolds. I don't know. Taylor's like in this... She's hanging out with the Deadpool director and... Yeah. I think a lot of this has to do with the Blake-Reyron

connective tissue of the current friend group. Well, whatever. It is what it is. It played its part in promoting the release of this album. And it is wonderfully reminiscent of what was happening when the original came out. It is fun. Yeah, I'm enjoying it. I'm trying to let go of my anxiety about the, okay, you know, all the tabloid stuff

and all of her being so ubiquitous during the actual 1989 era was the precursor to a darker time, though a darker time that she came out of beautifully. I'm just letting go of those nerves. I like seeing her out and about. I do too, but do you miss it? I mean, that gets to her voice on this album. Once again, her voice is exquisite, and she has turned it into her most powerful instrument.

And it lacks some of the tension from her voice at the time, which was equal parts desperation and wonder about being in this place. I missed the desperation that I didn't even realize I was hearing at the time. I mean, like you, I'm happy she's not desperate anymore. But with hindsight, she told us she wasn't eating. She had this mix of insecurity and, like, hope.

She writes about, even on the notes for this release, she writes about surrounding herself with female friends, in part because she thought we'd stop talking about her personal life, but in part because she'd never had those female friends, as a child. This is everything that is Taylor Swift, isn't it, Nora?

It's both strategic and self-soothing at the same time. And I'm happy that she's not there anymore, but I hear the difference in her voice, even as accomplished

as her voice as an instrument now is, that tension is not on this re-record, is it? Yeah, I think sometimes it's replaced with you know, how she can kind of belt and get the gravel in like the, and I remember. Yes.

A line like that where some of the original versions had like a finness that just isn't in her voice anymore. but that does communicate a little bit of the sort of delicacy and tentativeness that we now know that she was feeling. I agree with you. Sometimes sometimes I miss hearing it a little bit, but I think she's able to make up for it. And I think that she did, you know, we're having this interesting conversation while we're nominally supposed to be talking about blank face. She hits all the Starbucks lovers.

notes. And I think she spent a lot of time really carefully making sure that those pieces had what they needed to have. And to some extent, like, yes, her voice has changed. And there's nothing that anyone can do about it. They have discovered the low register of her voice.

We heard it on Midnights and we hear it throughout the vault. She sings in the lower range in ways that she could not sing this way when she recorded this album the first time. All right. Just really quickly on the Starbucks Lovers point. Again, please tell me they documented this. I gotta believe that at some point,

they at least tried her singing Starbucks Lovers. I think at some point she went in and did a take where she said the word Starbucks Lovers to try to nail it. I'm sure that they did at least a day of vocal on the chorus. just to nail that part. It's kind of like,

it's Starbucks, but without the R. It's like Stab- like, it's like with a really thick Boston accent. Right, it's like a back bag. Starbucks. Yeah, I'm sure that

I think a lot of these she can probably just mostly go in and lay it down and get out of the studio pretty fast. But there's attention to detail. In breaths. Yeah, I think that, yeah. I think they spent hours

on Starbucks lovers. Yeah. Yeah. When we did Best Song originally for this album, I believe that I spent some time in that section talking about New Romantics, which I think that we should do now. Let's talk about New Romantics, Taylor's version. The first question that I have for you. Yes. Are those the lively Reynolds children doing the ah, ah, ah, in the new one?

Something is amiss. What happened? I don't know what happened. I love this song. Did it not work for you? It didn't quite work for me. I think, like... I was worried about this.

I heard it and I was like, she's not going to... This one's not going to go with her. Here is my offer. If we and if all the Swifties band together and we go on a grassroots campaign to cruel summer new romantic, Take it to number one. Give it the life it deserves.

Then I will replays original new romantics, one of my favorite songs of all time. With the new version, which is mostly good, but has the weirdest sounding moment on that little part. It sounds like, it sounds like kids. Yeah. Yeah, well, and it sounds like the, the sort of percussive conga thing that's going underneath, I didn't really ever notice in the original version, and I notice it here. And so maybe the kids are playing the congas, too. Yeah, there definitely are little instruments that you can hear.

The other thing that I think is fascinating about New Romantics Taylor's Virgin is not actually the song, but is something that was included in the physical edition of the album, which was a poster that had some of the original lyrics written in it. And most of it was pretty much the same. But there was a part where you could see that she'd crossed some stuff off. And there was originally supposed to be a line that was, maybe I'm a shit show, but I'm fun and kind of cute. Yes. Put that on the tombstone. It's honestly a pretty good manifesto.

That's the 1989 era. Rock on. I love it. I guess it's probably for the best that got crossed out. The song also contains the word anti-hero at one point, which is pretty interesting. But, like, nothing is going to top, maybe I'm a shit show, but I'm fun and kind of cute. Taylor Swift, ladies and gentlemen. Did this re-record change what you think of as the best song on the album then?

That's not fair. No. No. No. New Romantics. You sure? Nothing will ever be better than New Romantics. Well, what is the best re-record then for you? Because it sounds like it's not New Romantics. Okay. All right. So I'm going to give you what you. want here. Yes. Because I think, I, I think. Okay, hold on.

Hold on. I'm going to make this as hard as it can possibly be. I'm going to qualify this like nine times. There are some songs that are not like the canonical 1989 songs. Mm-hmm. We're like, all you had to do was stay. She absolutely ate that up. Yeah.

Wonderland. Wonderland? Wonderland Taylor's version? Like, thank you. you. That's a gift. Okay. They crushed out of the woods. They did it. They crushed out of the woods. They crushed it. Congratulations.

They crushed out of the woods. Thank you. It, I, I mean, I, the end is great. Only Jack and Taylor could have done this one. And they understood that. And that's why he stepped in to do this. I mean, there's a reason, I don't know, I think there's a reason that the ones, the songs that are done by the original producers are the best vibe ones.

Yeah. The Imogen heap one, like she herself acknowledged unclean unclean, Imaging

acknowledged that it's not perfect and she went and said, like, tell me what details I missed. So you can tell

that she herself has been sort of maniacally trying to pair these things up. But look, all I really cared about

on this whole project was that they nail the last minute and a half of out of the woods, that they nail

the dude. the do you remember at three minutes and 39 seconds. And they fucking nailed it. And I don't know. I got like, I got emotional hearing that part. Because the song just, I remember the first time that I heard that song,

I have no idea where I was flying from, but I was flying home and I got on an airplane. And I sat down after a long day and I pushed play as the door was closing. And I just fell in love with, this song. And I was so nervous, as you said, anxiety about, wait, why are we repainting the Mona Lisa? Oh, okay, we're reclaiming the art. Okay, I'm on board, Taylor. Please don't fuck this up. And that moment from this album just matters to me. And I heard it. Every time we say anxiety,

I hear it in her voice from that, that Grammy's performance where she was talking about out of the woods and described a certain relationship as having been dominated by anxiety. And she enunciates it like that. And that's, I feel like we're inhabiting that vibe. I'm going to play you a song that I wrote about a relationship that I was in, that the number one feeling I felt in the whole relationship was anxiety. Right. And just the repetitive, the repeating of the phrase out of the woods,

which for some people, if you don't get the context of the song, I can see where you're like, come on, it's sort of annoying over and over and over. But that is what's going on in your head when you're feeling that level of, of anxiety is just you can't stop the repetitive thought going again and again and again and again and the fear are we there are we out are we clear of this moment which now understanding through the songs on the vault how much of this album is about harry styles out of the woods takes on an even greater import for me because it is this accident that we are going to hear about again is from is it over now right we're going to hear about it that the style is there

this one they got right. I'm so glad that they worked to nail that moment, which for me just is everything across this whole album. I'm thrilled with this re-record. I love it. Thank you for getting it.

By the way, biggest clown mask of my life for thinking there was even a chance of style featuring Harry's yeah. Yeah, let's just say that the Kendrick Lamar you know,

the Kendrick Lamar Bad Blood Collaboration is not the collaboration that everyone was hoping for even though it's great and it clearly, like, working with him appears to have had an interesting

impact on her. Yeah, but I think you're a, to paraphrase, clueless, you're a lying traitor who can't drive is,

is the dominant impression. Look, Mr. Harold. It's not the whole, the dream is not a hundred percent dead. She has a tendency to come out with a really big surprise that you weren't expecting. We didn't really get a big surprise that we weren't expecting here yet. So they're, for all of the, the clown, keep the clown mask at least in a drawer where you know where it is. Like don't lose the code to the safe where the clown mask is.

It's not going anywhere. I'm just saying, we did get a lot of hairy on this album. Yeah, we got a lot of hairy on this album. So for me, I'm with you that out of the woods is my favorite re-record. But because of the context that we get about the hairy relationship to me, I just come back to, I think, the most important song on this album and the biggest one for me is style. And I am interested, I'm with you that the guitar has a head cold in some way. And I don't know that that's Paul's fault because he's playing it both live.

And like he plays it great. It always hits for me. But there is something about the outro of style and just that wave of the groove that feels like it has more of a sheen and is less of, as she described it, in that lost lyric, a shit show. And I love the shit show and I miss it on style. That guitar part is supposed to come out and like slap you in the face. You know? It's like, bam,

bam, bam bam, and it's supposed to kind of like... Listen to you. Playing the bampo horn. It's a little more muted. It's just, it just blends in with the rest of the mix a little bit more.

And I don't think it quite has that like Miami Vice thing going. When it doesn't separate in quite the same way. Right. So that's, it's definitely. definitely one of the things that, I mean, we've probably now talked about the two sonic differences, that being style and that moment on New Romantics. Those to me were the closest we got to cocaine bears on this album.

A lot of the rest of it was like pretty, you know, you can hear the differences, but... What about shake it off? I mean, shake it off ostensibly the, you know, the single of the hit from this... It felt to me like they thinned out her voice a little bit, but there's the spoken word stuff and the hey, hey, hey, how did she pull off, shake it off for you? I think she did it. Like this sick beat?

I did too. She had it. Liars and the dirty, dirty cheats of the world, you could have been getting down to this. I wonder if it's because she's been performing it so much. I was like, that had it. That had the stuff. I was worried when I listened to it.

This was never my favorite song. But I really appreciated the re-record. The attention to detail is really impressive. I thought this was one where the wheels would come off because, in particular, because of all the spoken stuff. But yeah, this really, shake it off is great. My ex. She had it.

I think it's because she's been doing it on stage every night. I think you're probably right. Okay, I think I'm inventing a new category for us because I want to talk about the vault. So we've done best song. We always do best song. But let's talk about the best new song. Let's first talk about our reaction to slut.

Slut. The reality that I thought I was going to come in and just listen straight through. And I go into Spotify. There's the timer. And it's clicking down. And as soon as it hits, I refresh. And I go straight to slut. And you and I try not to communicate.

much around these things so that it's fresh when we actually talk about it on the pod. But we did do a lot of texting around this one. And you went straight to slow. I lied. Yeah. I'm a liar. Taylor Swift recorded a song called Slot exclamation point. Like, I don't know why I thought that I was going to be able to not click on it first. And then, yes, I had to talk to you about it. And I'm going to reveal a little bit about our... text thread, which was that in the moment, it was the first thing that you and I listened to. So this was at Midnight O3, East Coast. You and I expressed a little bit of disappointment about this song when we first heard.

Yeah. I don't know if it earned a declamation point. It's not, it wasn't the like, this is the saddest shit I've ever heard thing that I was worried about, but it's a little closer to that than. Yeah. Yeah, the banger that I thought it was going to be. Yeah. I was hoping for something that would make its way into a stadium show

where people would be sort of screaming that in a sort of, you know, whatever, tongue-in-cheek way. It's somewhere in between. Look, it's more melancholy than I expected. Yeah, it grew on me, though. It grew on me. Okay. Talk to me about that. Well, I've listened to it a lot more. And once I sort of absorb the lyrics,

I've found my... There are three vault songs that I have fallen a bit for. I got to contextualize that the entire vault feels like midnight outtakes to me. And or that midnight, you know, I think my working theory is that midnight grew out of this work. But the more that I listened to Slut, the more I enjoyed it,

I have trouble getting over the drunken love line. Because it's just, it's Beyonce. Also, was anyone calling Taylor Swift a drunk at that point? Well, from this point on, they'd have maybe good reason to because... I think there's a very real... And, like, she's always been a... She's this, like, beautiful, you know, white on top of the world celebrity. So I don't know that she's ever had.

It's always in the subtext, right? It's not that people were out and about screaming slut at Taylor Swift. Right. But all of the slideshows, right? All of the, here's a list of all the guys who Taylor Swift has torn down in song. Right. Like there's such a subtext that is slut-shaming of her. And so this song to me, which I think is a little bit more valid than I don't think anybody was calling her a drunk.

No, but I mean, listen, her alcohol references in her songs go up and to the right if we chart them from here. From this album on, she's, you know. True. But like, but that happened after, but whatever, it doesn't matter. To me, the song is, it's not my favorite song. Isn't it, it's an okay Taylor's, Swift song, it is a really interesting snapshot of how she was feeling. Yes. Because I think the story of 1989, the music is so undeniable and it's so interesting. And it was so different from anything else that was big that I think the legacy of 1989

original is Taylor Swift went pop. And the effect was this like 80s-ish synth pop masterpiece. And holy shit, those songs sound good. And look what she was able to do. And she finally committed. And that's a story about the music. That's a story about what it sounds like. That's a story about how successfully this woman could say,

I am shooting for pop star, mega stardom and get there. That's always been the story. of 1989 to me, but I think the story of 1989 Taylor's version has a lot more to do with, I felt like I had to reinvent myself completely because I felt like shit.

And like everybody hated me and thought that I had too many boyfriends and so like there's a little bit of a dissonance that I'm pointing out and being like, was anybody really calling Taylor Swift a drunk? And like, the slut-shaming

piece was absolutely there and And for sure it was. Yes. But I also think that there's, yeah, no, it was dissected in. But I think the thing that's really interesting about slut to me is what it reveals about her mindset making 1989. Yeah. And I think that the, you know, when you take it with the vault, the picture of the album tells a more personal story. in a way that it's not better or worse, it's just interesting.

The first time that I met her was before this album came out. I was in a house and she came in the room and sat down and we were talking about some business stuff. But she confidently said, I'm about to release the best music I've ever made. and the juxtaposition of that confidence about the end product and what you are articulating here, which is the way that she was feeling in the moment. And, you know, again, what we know with hindsight about the anxiety

and the emotional wear and tear of her relationships and what was happening with her body and all these things, there's a really strange and fascinating you know, dichotomy between those two things. What else from the vault stood out to you? Well, let's go in order.

I mean, to me, the three songs that I will continue to listen to, I think, our slut are now that we don't talk. And is it over now? Yeah. Say don't go for me. Now I'm pacing on shaky grass.

is clean. I mean, the verse is sound like clean. There is some wildest dreams. And his voice is a familiar sound. Nothing lasts forever. It has some Madonna's like a prayer. It has some your love by the outfield. And all of that is okay,

because I think we have to look at The Vault always as continuing her process of working through ideas in multiple songs, some of which end up in the cutting room floor that she's letting us see here. And in this case, it just feels like with this song, she probably works some ideas with Diane Warren, but say, don't go for me. I don't necessarily need to hear it again. It gives me some insight into the process of other songs, but it feels like a sandbox that made other things.

Now that we don't talk is also one of my favorites. And it's just an interesting piece of evidence for what you're talking about in terms of how this got made. Because in the voice memo, and by the way, my first reaction to the vault was when you get to the end of 1989 and the next thing you hear is not, so over the years, it's, it like freaked me out. I wasn't ready for it. New Romantics ends.

And then you're supposed to hear the I know places. his voice memo. So over the years, a lot of people have asked me to sort of describe my songwriting process. And I was grateful that she did the voice memos on Tumblr

as a sort of nod to those because I love those and I think they're special. But it was interesting in the one for now that we don't talk, which I think is the best song in the vault. And I think I agree with you. Would have been the strongest contender

to make the album. But she says in that voice memo, they couldn't get the production right. They just couldn't quite figure it out. So it got left on the cutting room floor. It was so hard to leave it behind. But I think we wrote it a little bit towards the end of the process. And we couldn't get the production right at the time. But we had tons of time to perfect the production this time.

Which, you know, let's take the little Easter egg from that. That means that there were some meaningful and serious production choices happening in whatever the now of making 1989 Taylor's version was for what the vault sounded like, which if we're talking about the relationship between the vault songs and Midnights, I think is interesting because it says, you know,

we weren't just copy and pasting things that existed in full, but were on the cutting room floor. We were making musical choices in the now. And that can, can bleed in and out of something like Midnights. I can't unhear labyrinth. It's the same key, lots of the same chord progressions.

Just take the lyrical part of this out of it. The bridge to me sounds a little bit. Well, though I don't want to do that at all because I love the lyrics. No, I do too. I'm just saying, but the bridge sounds a little bit like the bridge of mastermind to me

that no one played with me when I was a little kid. Look, this song is great. Now that we don't talk, My mind fast forwards to the Grammy's conversation between her and Harry Styles where they were actually talking in what looked like a normal way at a table. Kind of normal.

Kind of normal because they didn't like hug goodbye or anything, right? But you just wonder how long was that gap? This is an example of a song where they really lean into the lower register in her voice, which started on folklore and Evermore. But I guess my question for, you, since this one seems to be the one that you, that you landed on, who likes acid rock? You can't answer that question, Nathan? You don't know who likes acid rock? I know who likes acid rock.

Harry Stiles likes acid rock. He likes acid rock, feather boas, and bad driving. So it's there. But this is, this is an important song to contextualize the rest of 1989, right? I just man, she was down bad for Harry Stiles. Down bad. I got to say, I'm a little torn between, has Harry been like completely skewered? Or is the sprinkling of charisma through Taylor Swift songs upon Harry's style? Is there a little bit of that that's continuing to go? Is this like a messed up thing in my brain? Oh, for sure.

Well, and so to get to the other vault song that I love, which is, is it, over now. This is a pretty heavy-duty Harry Styles song that suggests maybe it's never over. Sad boat girl. Sad boat girl. Building jumping.

Jumping off of high things. Oh Lord, I think about jumping off a very tall some things just to see you come running. I mean, like, this is in the same key as out of the woods. The end where she says, is it over now, is a lot like the take me home part in style. So this too feels like something that was being workshopped and that ended up on the cutting room floor. But it is, it's a pretty intense lyrical song.

Does this one hit for you? Will you continue to listen to? Yeah, it really hits. Do you think that, oh Lord? Would that have been on the original If this had made the album Would she have done that? Would she have had the same like

With that? No. Or would it have been weird? No. I think it probably would have been weird. I think you're right. That to me is a post I mean there's a little bit of country there Right?

So like there's a certain root of that That goes back forever with Taylor. But that was a post folklore evermore moment to me somehow. I'm super into that song. He really fucked her up. And as Harry Styles' as want to do with

with women, I believe, this guy is a real mind effort. Oh, Harold. I mean, look, yeah. So Suburban Legends, it's a skip for you totally. I mean, I hear...

No, so look. I hear Mastermind on that one. When I ended up, I got a classroom. I ended up in the same room at the same time. That's actually my only problem with Suburban Legends is that it's just not Mastermind and it's not quite as good as Mastermind,

which is, I don't know if it's a top five Taylor's song, but it's top 15 probably. Yeah, I start wanting to sing all the wisest women when I hear Suburban Legends. It just, it feels like a kernel of that song. I like the concept. I think it's fun. I want to drive around in the suburbs and listen to it.

I think that would be a nice thing. but it is just, I don't have a fundamental problem with recycling, right, and playing with the same ideas on different songs. Suburban Legends is over the line for me. It's just the same song. And it gets in the way. And that's okay. It's on the vault.

But... Okay, okay. But this gets to a thing I'm afraid to say out loud, but I'm going to say it. It's time to break up the band. Jack and Taylor are, I know you joke with me about this metaphor, but they are at the edge of the forest of their creative output right now. They have done great work, but I think they need a break.

Everything is starting to sound the same. Good same, sometimes great same. But still, my overarching reaction to the vault was, I could be singing, don't take the money to this. I could be singing, some other bleachers song, I could be singing Midnight. Yeah, the vault is very bleachers.

It is super bleachers. And the best outputs of her life creatively have been when she has encountered someone new and worked hard to build something together. That's why clean is great. It's why Welcome to New York is great.

It's why reputation is great. It's why the Max Martin songs are great. It's why all of the work with Aaron Dessner was career transforming and great. And now, I just want them to chill and have her go get on Raya for producers and go find a new date and do a little work. You can always come back and create more stuff together. You two are wonderful and you will always be great. I am, I break up the band. It would be good for both of them, I think. It's time, right?

It's not a criticism, but we're there. This sounds as a collection, the vault. And again, there are three songs on here that I really liked, the more that I listened to them. But the first pass, overarchingly, I was like, I've heard this before. And I heard it recently on Midnights. and it's all starting to sound the same. Good same, sometimes great same, but the same.

If they're going to... If they're going to... They should find out, right? Like, it's pretty obvious that Taylor and Jack can go into a studio together and have close to certainty that they can walk out, with something pretty good

and pretty interesting that people are going to enjoy hearing. Yeah. I love don't take the money. That should, I love don't take the money. I love 45. I love Jack. I love his work.

This doesn't have to be a big, like I know it's a big, because people hate on Jack all the time and it's dumb and I don't hate on Jack. I love Jack. I love Jack Antonoff's work. But I'm just saying that I think that's why there's like sort of attention

in this, it doesn't prove those people right if they take a break. That's right. And it becomes something powerful and that pushes her in a new direction and challenges her creatively. Yes. If they are getting to the suburban legends place,

I think it is a sign that it might be worth seeing what else is out there. Yes. And if that type of creative inspiration could come from working with a new partner. And if it doesn't work, they're like best friends.

They're going to be in each other's lives. They're going to see each other. They're going to work together. They're going to have ideas. It's going to be okay. Like, Jack's going to be around. Taylor was at the wedding. Like, we're cool.

And look, in this moment of deification of this woman, I ask everyone to just take a breath. And it, she's, going to do what she does. It's great. But it is okay to acknowledge that her best work comes when she gets pushed creatively. She always knows that. She has the finger on the pulse of both the fan base and her own career. So she's going to come to this conclusion on her own, I am sure. By the way, you know who that happened with? Jack Antonoff. Exactly. Exactly. He was a new ingredient for her at one point and pushed her and it was textures we had.

hadn't heard, and it led to one of my very favorite Taylor Swift albums. So Jack is part of this, too. He's proof of concept for this, in fact. Well, I mean, guess who gave us cruel summer? Jack and Taylor. No, but not... St. Vincent.

St. Vincent was a part of that, right? So I just... Again, I'm thrilled at their work. This is not a criticism of anything in the past, but the signals are there and I don't even need to ask for it. You and I don't need to ask for it because Taylor is always ahead of the curve on this stuff.

But it's time, and I can't wait to see who she chooses. This will be the first time I think that she can look to what is legitimately a younger generation of artist and dive in to do some work with some producers who are creating sounds that are somewhat derivative of her work, instead of her working with artists or producers who are older than her,

where their work is derivative of stuff that's older than her. She can maybe pivot. I do think that's probably the next musical phase of her career is not in a Madonna way, not in like a ray of light, like suddenly she's in the club, maybe more like you two Octung Baby where they went into the discos in Berlin and took a break and found some new sound. sounds and work with it. Taylor, go to Berlin. But I do think that's what's next. And the vault, I fell in love more and more with those three songs, the more that I've listened to them. We'll see how they age. I could get there. But the first reaction was, hey, it's time. And that's okay. But that's where we are. I think now that we don't talk and is it over now are really strong.

Yeah. So that's not to say that there aren't. pieces of excellent work coming from this. And I think that's what makes it hard, right? Like, they love working together. They love being together. And a lot of the output is excellent. But you don't lose that by going in a different direction and chasing something new. And I'm excited to find out what it is.

I mean, just in terms of what the next chunk of her life is going to look like, obviously she's more than capable of getting in the studio and working on recorded music while she's touring. but I also wonder if the fact that the tour is about to pick back up and is going to be such a huge part of what she does for the next year plus, maybe there's a little bit of a break that comes naturally there. And what this album teaches us is that the relationships that she has been in through the course of her life affect her deeply. and Travis Kelsey last night showed up

Travis Kelsey last night showed up at the World Series instead of in New York with her, fine, but there is the cutest video of him out at some bar and love story comes on and he is jumping up and down filming himself and the crowd

and you know she got that video. She got that video and it is super cute but she is now in this relationship with somebody who is clearly different from the guy who made 1989 happen because he's so in his feeling, you know, the mind fucker that apparently was Harry Stiles in this moment. Let me just say that. I'm sure he's grown in lots of ways.

But this relationship... Hold on. Hold on. I just... We need to talk about this for a second. ...is going to change her. And it's going to affect her music, is all I'm saying. We're going to hear... There's enough we've seen.

We're going to hear... stuff about this relationship and whatever she makes next. I don't doubt that Harry Styles or any random dude has the ability

to inflict psychological turmoil. You think this is native to her? Well, what is native to her? I think Harry Styles said the movie feels like a movie. You know, my favorite thing about the movie is like it feels like a movie. It feels like a real like, you know, go to the film movie.

I'm just really fascinated by the picture of this man that comes out of her songwriting. And I think what we're getting is a picture of what that relationship was like. And I certainly can relate to the. experience of like just having something that's like undefined and back and forth and you you don't feel like you're on solid ground can blow something into stress and like that sort of drama, tortured sadness that we get so much of this. But like Harry Stiles mind fucker is the thing I think he did by accident. I'm not justifying it at all because that means that he was too stupid to pay attention to what was going on.

But, like, I love Harry so much. Harry is the movie feels like a movie guy. And that juxtaposition, I just think, is very funny. I think she spent the first 34 years of her life, not the young ones, but let's just call it ages, you know, 15 to 34, with guys who did not know who they were or what they wanted. and it created wonderful art. It appears to me that for the first time,

she is with a guy who knows exactly what he wants. And he wants Taylor Swift. And I am fascinated to see how it manifests itself in her art. I just wanted to be done without Jack. Interesting. Interesting. All right, track five is all you had to do is stay. Another example of an important little moment,

the high stay is. that I think they hit. I was really into this for your record. Yeah. It worked for me, but this is a song that is one of my least favorite on 1989. I don't agree with you on that. That's okay. I just, I had forgotten that it was a track five. I forgot that style and out of the woods are before it and bad blood. I mean, blank space. But I think it's, again, maybe that was a clue. Like maybe this conversation that we're having about how the vault and how she's presenting this album reveals a little bit about what

was driving her and what was compelling. That fits. Narrative-wise, it does. This to me, I like this song more than you do, but this to me is one of those songs where, you know, you remember 1989 for the singles and for the big hits and then you start going through the album one by one. And it's not a lot of skips.

Just not a lot of skips on this thing. Yeah. We've talked about the collaborators a lot. I just want to make sure if I haven't said this explicitly. I think Chris Rowe did his job. Yeah. Like, I think he really did his job here. I get why she's turning this over to him.

Yeah. The fidelity is unprecedented in terms of artists who've tried to do this. Go be Max Martin is a hard ask. And he's not accomplishing that 100% of the time, because that would be impossible. But I think he's doing a really good job. Agree. But I think if we are honest about who her most important collaborator was,

it's the guy who wasn't in the room and that's Max Martin. Not because, like, oh, if Max was here, it would be, this is not a criticism of the re-record. You can just tell the difference. Some people are going to like it. Some people aren't going to like it. Sounds like you and for the two of us, there are songs where we do like it.

There's songs where we don't, right? But he's not there, and it's just a reminder that Max Martin is a vibe. Max Martin is a vibe. Easter eggs. Let's see. So we talked about Boat Girl.

We've talked about the fact that we are in our Harold Stiles era. I mean, the lyrical. references to him, I almost wouldn't call Easter eggs because they're just, it's not quite dear John, but it's close. It's close. And I buy now more than ever that on the first Harry Styles album, you know, I think I'm in on two ghosts being about Taylor now. Same lips red, same eyes blue, same white shirt, couple more tattoos.

What about from the dining table? the girl who looked just like you. Yes. Your new girl is my clone? That's a bar. Your new girl is my clone. For sure. Yeah.

There just was an intensity to this relationship. I wish that Harry was a bit more overt about whether he feels the same way. I wonder, I secretly wonder, if that feeling is somewhat unrequited. the feeling of anger over how it ended? Or what...

No, just the infatuation of... Lithium white-hot intensity of the whole thing. I wonder if it was like a forbidden fruit thing where she'd said, like, I'm not dating right now. I'm just hanging out with my friends. And then kind of hits you, like, a ton of bricks. Yeah, I just wonder if it mattered as much to Harry as it clearly mattered to her.

Well, and that's what, like, I think... Taylor was giving deep deep romance and Harry was maybe giving a little bit of fuck boy Yeah Yeah

Thank you for saying something that I don't think I could have articulated in that way Tale's oldest time Like that's the that's the

potential for it to have been a little bit of an unrequited thing Yeah But the thing That's interesting

is like I think she I don't know if she haunts him I mean I don't think he haunts her romantically now.

I think he haunts her musically. Listen, if I'm Travis, I'm not taking her to love on tour. I'll tell you that. Love on tour somehow in this world still happening. Yeah. No, that's a man who is comfortable with himself and his masculinity,

but he ain't bringing her to love on tour. Taylor can go to love on tour on her own if she wants to. I don't know that she wants to. He's happy to have her go around the room and talk to anybody, but when Harry Styles walks in that room, my dude is going to pull up. I mean, I don't think that's exactly like a rare. It's not the first time that would have happened, I would imagine.

I'd do that for sure. Harry Styles walks in a room. We are leaving. We are. Because if I don't get you out of there right now, you're leaving with him. I don't know how to articulate this because I love Harry Styles, and I think he's a brilliant musician and I love his work. Taylor is not the only, like, arena in which this has happened.

He is a magnet for, like, serious stakes get built up around Harry Styles, a fundamentally silly man. Yeah, but he's a force of nature. And I'm just, I'm just interested in that. He is here to steal yo girl. But, like, that's the irony of that song. Yeah. Everybody wants to steal my girl. Fuck that, Harry.

That's you, brother. He's a vessel, is what I think I would say. We talked about boat girl. I'm thrilled that that was brought up. Yeah. That meant a lot to me. The blue dress on the boat,

she's just so sad and pouty, and there it is. What did you think about the prologue? The written prologue that came out. before this thing. I mean, I'll just, I'll say it, I'll say it, but I'm going to tee it up for you because I want to get your feedback. The most stunning part of it for me was unequivocally the line where she said, I started hanging out with my female friends because I thought that that would keep people from, like, talking about my sex. life and it didn't stop them from doing that.

Is that, let me ask you, is that a gentle admonishment of the gailers? Yeah, totally. I mean, first of all, it's not the first, like, she's done that, right? She had the tweet on her birthday in the 1989 era that was like the present I would like from the medias for them to stop saying that I'm dating my friends. So this has happened. Not a lot. And I think it's a tricky balance for her because she also, in the prologue, she mentioned

sort of the discovery of allyship. And I think it's a delicate, there's a representation piece of that that I think she is conscious of towing that line. I guess, I guess what's interesting. What else could that possibly mean? Yeah. That's a, I'm not doing it with Carly-Loss. Yeah, it's the first time I've really understood that there was some hurt associated with it.

And I think that's hard to get your head around. I mean, she has a very close relationship, you know, with the LGBTQ community. They've supported her. They've lifted her up. They are just such an important part of the fan base. I don't think that's the access for it. I think it's, I have completely reshaped my life so that there will stop being these dumb slide shows of all the guys I'm dating. And I'm doing it in a way where I thought that if I just went out with my friends and was hanging out with women all the time, that would do it.

Which is no small thing, right? Like a woman in her young 20s being like, I'm not going to date right now. Like that's not what she wanted to do, right? But she felt like she had to and was trying to embrace it. And then to be met with, well, it doesn't matter because there's just going to be speculation in this direction, too. Yeah. That's a little bit more of like, I think there's an interesting dynamic because some of it is media and some of it as fans. Yeah.

Right? And when it's professional media members who should know better, I think that's the conversation that she wants to have. And it's a little bit trickier when it's people who love her and fans of hers. who might want to see themselves in her and are excited about it from that. So it's delicate, but... That's the delicacy. That's why I'm surprised

that she went right at that. And maybe she's just speaking to the media and not the fan base. But it's rare that she pierces the veil or pops the bubble of whatever theory, fan theory, gets built up around her,

generally because I think she knows that those things are good for her, whether true or not, right? And she lets the community run with it. And a lot of times, she plays into it. it, right? And she'll toss a bone and sort of fuel the fire whether it's, whether those things are true or not. I mean, I think about the, I mean, she's always paying attention, right? I think about the

no, it's Becky stuff. I think about the more Lana stuff. Like, she, she has her finger on the pulse, but this, this is a, this is a rare occurrence in which she addresses something, one of those bubbles of theories that we've built around Taylor Swift, that she takes it head on and says, actually, that hurt. And I didn't expect that. Interesting. But maybe she's only talking to the media and not the fan base. Yeah. Or it's how it gets talked about and some of it's okay and some of it's not. I wonder if she, I don't know, there's a world in which she's getting ready to release this album and she plays the concert in L.A. where

Carly shows up and she's in the 300 level or whatever. And Taylor's riding home and she's watching the coverage and she just pulls out a pen and is like, I'm going to say something. I don't know if it's out of the question. But it was that that was what stood out to me too. But also, again,

I think that prologue, what we talked about, just centered this album as a more as a personal story in a way that I don't like the I hear it. I always hear the sounds first because the sounds are just so amazing. But that helped me center it in a way where I was listening more carefully for like, what is she trying to, you know, what is she communicating? And that's not to say that obviously like some of the stuff. Blank space. Of course you're getting the personal and the effect of what

it says about how she thinks people see her and how she feels about how. people see her and all of that. But in general, I think the prologue helped me hear the re-record through those ears. Very helpful contextualization of this one. Sometimes we think about pop music as being less emotive and less sort of meaningful. It's a reminder that through all of it, She's a songwriter first and a very personal, emotionally invested songwriter. And I did not learn a whole lot more about Speak Now from the re-records. I like, I can see you. I love that song.

I like Electric Touch. And those are songs that I go back to. But I didn't learn a whole lot more about that era. And as you and I have talked about, like, she's not erasing that era. But she certainly is, you know, dilute, not diluting, but she's sort of signaling that she's moved past that. But this, this, I learned a lot about her and what was going on for her and these songs and what they were about from the additional, the vault tracks and the writing that she did around this album. It was, it has changed the way I think about this piece of art. normally we ask if there's anything that needed to be cut,

but cuts are not really the point of the re-recordings. We're doing archival, we're getting into the vault. So instead I'm going to ask, is there anything on this that should have been given the Yasified girl at home treatment? Should any of these songs have just been like, you know what? This didn't work. Let's take a new whirl at it. I guess I would have thought maybe Wonderland,

but I really like the way. that Wonderland? Slade. I love original Wonderland, but I thought the re-recorded Wonderland. Like the AAs are so good. She's doing the Rihanna thing. No, I mean, that's the thing,

is 1989 is so tight as an album that I just, that this was one that would be super hard to cut. I mean, what I would say is you could have cut the vault and put it out as yet another edition of Midnights. Well, so, okay,

I don't want to play into this because I think there's a piece of the, there's a piece of the slut voice memo that is being taken a little bit out of context. And that's not the only time on 1989 that I've done that. I did that on Blank Space. And I think when I came down to having to pick songs for the album, I think I thought, okay, well, I'm going to choose blank space.

And unfortunately, I had to make some tough to say, in terms of what to put on the track list. Saying that she was like, it was either going to be slut or blank space when really, like she doesn't present it as though that was a difficult choice. She just said these were two songs where I was sort of playing with the idea of how I was perceived. And I ended up going with blank space. I do just want to imagine for a second,

the world in which we all hear blank space for the first time two nights ago. What would we be doing right now? I would not be okay. This podcast would be like three hours of screaming. It's an important... The video, just on its own, is a very important part of the lore. The golf clubs in the show

and the breaking of the car. Totally. Very important part of this album. And the crazy eyes and the biting the apple and the whole. horse, like, all of it. Again, she did not say that this was a choice she agonized over.

And I got, like, I had a friend, somebody texted me something being like, this is ridiculous. Like, this can't possibly have happened. And it was because there was a headline being like, Taylor Swift reveals that slut was almost included over blank space. And I was like, that's not what she said. That didn't happen. That's dumb. Stop saying that.

Fake news. Do you wish... But it would have been wild. I wish for her to take a second pass at a song called Slut exclamation point. Like, can there be a slut exclamation point, part two? Now with more slut. Now with more slut.

Yeah, I'm here for it. I mean, George Michael wrote three, I want your sexes. Can we get two sluts? I think that would be great. I think that would be great. It's not that it, yeah, the song itself is fine. And maybe that's on me for seeing the title and just getting a little bit out over my skis in terms of this is going to be like a cheeky, cheeky banger. It's what we wanted.

It is what I wanted. It's what we wanted. But the song, she can't help what the song is. Yeah, that's true. Melodically, I like it. I like the low bass notes. It really grew on me over the course of my listening.

It's not the song's fault. No. Yeah, it's a fine song. All right. I had for my Tom Hiddleston Award the thing about the new Romantics lyrics in the album poster. Maybe I'm a shit show,

but I'm fun and kind of cute. I think it has to be. There's just no. It is the defining line of the 1909 era. And again, there are parts of the end product here that cleaned up some of the shit show. And I think that's what we notice is being a little bit different. But you know what? She's cleaned up the shit show. So it's fitting. Haven't we all? What do you think happens next from here? She goes on tour. Yeah. I don't think reputation is very far behind.

the, in one of the lyric videos, rep was maybe written in the sand somewhere on the beach. I couldn't see it, but it was, I saw the TikTok. Yeah, I think she's done the work. And it now makes sense to me

why the urgency of being in the studio, because she understood she was going to go to Asia and Europe for a full year plus in South America. So, if she was going to put this stuff out. Like, it's super hard to do that jumping across time zone, so on and so forth, because this tour itself is such a physical feat, doing that and singing as much as she was.

And then go, so I get now why we've seen her so much in the studio trying to finish these things. And potentially documenting new music, too. Let's not put that out of the question. But we're going to see reputation soon. And we should. I have no idea when we're going to see debut. So interesting. I don't know. I mean... It's going to be hard for her to even put that out to go through the hype cycle, right?

Maybe she puts them out together just to get it done. Here are two albums. Can you fucking believe the same person made these? I can't. And I did it. I love it.

I love it. Oh my gosh. The, like, our song is going to be the B-side to don't play. blame me. Honestly, no notes. Perfect idea.

Good job, Nathan. Can't wait. Thank you. He's so chaotic. I would love it if she did that. I think she just has to do it with debut. It's going to be a little weird, but it's also going to be really fun. Like, the energy of our song being one of the being the sing-along in the Ears movie, I think

is the energy. that she should try to capture for debut. It's just like, hey, remember these songs? Let's sing them together. That's fun. Also, I wrote these when I was 15. Holy shit. How did that happen?

They're so good. Yeah. She just, and then she just needs to not use the hair straightener. Hold hands with Travis. No, stop. Stop. Going to 12 James. I'm going to beat you.

I am beating you with this. golf club from the blank space video and performance. If she go, all of the promotion. No more hair commentary from you. All of the promotion of this album that she needs is to walk out into the paparazzi blitz, holding Travis Kelsey's hand, having not done anything to the hair so that it's super curled up, just like the debut days. Go to some restaurant, again, 12 James or 27 Frank or whatever.

the fuck, you know, number name restaurant she chooses to go to tonight. And just have that be the launch. It'll work. Just one time. All right. Best lyric. In our original review, this went to Blank Space, of course. And I'm thrilled that she got Starbucks Lovers, right?

I would offer the acid rock line. I don't have to pretend I like acid rock or that I'd like to be on a megiat with important men who think important thoughts. Fun. Like it. There for it. Into it. Yeah. We're agreeing a ton. I, yes, it is the best lyric. My favorite lyric more than ever is, do you remember, just because of the way that it sort of haunts and now fully contextualizes everything that went on in the album.

All right, let's grade this thing. You get to go first, Nora. All right. I think it's an a minus for the recreation. I think 1989 will always be a flying colors 100% a plus album. Yeah. It's just like I feel a calmness talking about this re-record that I do not normally, I'm not normally able to inhabit when covering Taylor Swift because I just want everything to be perfect for her.

This just is. just so good. It's like all of the anxiety of like, oh, what if people criticize it? What if people don't like it? It's 1989. Yeah. It's fine. Who would dare? It's fine. I will, I mean, I think that redoing this is incredibly difficult. And I think that they deserve an A for the recreation of it. On a degree of difficulty. On a degree of difficulty. On a degree of difficulty scale. On a vibe scale, it's a B plus for me. But I, again, put it on in the same way that cooking does not always yield the exact same result every time. Are you hungry right now? Is that what's going on? I'm not. I just, it's the similar, you know, the creative process. I think we should

celebrate how close they came and celebrate the, the reality that the creative process is not replicable, that you can't just plug this shit into machines and get 100% the same thing. I think everybody who worked on this project did an excellent, impeccable job. And it gives me great relief and joy that, A, they did such a good job, and B, it isn't perfect, and that there is a great relief and joy that, A, they did such a good job, and B, it isn't perfect. and that there is something that will always be unique about the moment in time

that was captured on the original 1989, but as a standalone substitute in service of the army that follows this woman and is supporting the reclamation of her art, this thing gets an A. It makes me more interested and I think more excited

for Reputation Taylor's version, which is going to be another incredibly tough thing to recreate just all the sounds of that album. Way more difficult, I think. Even than this. 1989. But this had some of

that, some of the pieces of those challenge, of that challenge. Yeah. Happened here and they did well with it. There's the video of Jack and Taylor working the lyrics of Getaway Car. And you're in the Motel Bar.

I'm in the Getaway Car. left you in the motel bar. Took the money in the bag and I stole the money. Put the money in the bag and I sold the keys. That was the last time you ever saw me. I know a driveway car left you in the hotel bar. Yes, that's so sick. And in this moment where they, you know,

stole the keys, that was the last time you ever saw me, put the money in the bag, sold the keys. Like, as they both settle on it together in the moment, sort of improvising it, and then they know they've got it, there's just that euphoric energy around it. that gets captured in the recording originally. And invariably, as time passes,

it's hard to just recreate that lightning in a bottle. So that's the difference between old 1989 and Taylor's version 1989. It's going to be a very difficult thing for them to do on reputation, and to land that plane will be behind the scenes an absolute feat and accomplishment if they're able to do it. Because by the way, emotionally, she carried a hell of a lot of anger. There's not anger in 1989.

There is anger on reputation. And for her to replicate that, as good of an actress as she is, it's going to be an incredible challenge in its own way, a very, very interesting piece of art. Although maybe, you know, very different music from Shake It Off, obviously, but maybe there's a little bit of a piece of she's been crushing a lot. of those songs live on a nightly, you know, on a multi-times a week basis. So I wonder if, if that helps to some degree. We're going to find out. Nathan, what a delight. It's always

fun to get to talk to you about a Taylor Swift release or re-release. This has been every single album. As always, I'm Nora Pinceati. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to Kai and with Malin for producing this episode and to you for listening.