Every Single Album - A Post–'The Life of a Showgirl' Mailbag | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

It's been a week since the release of 'The Life of a Showgirl,' and it's time for a debrief. First, Nora and Nathan talk about Taylor Swift breaking Adele's record for first-week album sales (1:00), then they open up the mailbag to answer questions about favorite discoveries made since the album dropped (18:43), whether or not they think this album will get any Grammy nominations (38:21), and what they think the strongest lyrics on this album are (46:33). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to every single album, Taylor Swift. I'm Nora Princeati and as always I am joined by Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, are you ready for a mailbag? People are having some feelings about this album, Nora. Only a few days after we recorded our The Life of a Showgirl reaction pod and said off the top that it was amusing as a bit that the album was coming across as so polarizing, although to a certain extent that was to be expected, and that there were so many strong feelings in both directions about an album that we both mostly reacted to by saying,

yeah, you know, it's fun. It's pretty good. And I have to say, I feel basically the same now. Although our mailbag questions always, which is not to say that we don't get a few from either side of that equation, for sure, but for the most part, they always put a big wind in my sales because they're very insightful. They make me think about songs in the album as a whole in new ways. They're really considered, they're often incredibly well written. Like, you guys are very smart.

So that's fun. Yeah, but let's just set the table on this first before we dive in. This album is going to absolutely obliterate the record for most first week sales of all time. It's going to smoke past Adele. And by the way, that was not the point of this album. And she's done such a great job on the media stuff. She's so damn cute, Nora. Like, she's so endearing on all these shows.

And actually, I think that people have gotten some good stuff out of her as she's gone and done the media tour. But, like, that was not the point of this album. That was definitely the point of this rollout. Sure. and this campaign. I hadn't even thought about it. Mission 1 million percent accomplished.

And we can talk today about that this stuff still matters to her. And she wants to be at the top. And by the way, as an all-time goat, she deserves it. I don't blame her for going for it. But that's what this campaign has been about. And it's just been fascinating

to see how this album has been received across the spectrum of stands, to regular fans, to regular critics, to haters, like that whole sort of spectrum is taking this thing in so differently. And as she's gone out and done this media campaign

for the first time in a while, right? Because she didn't do this for tortured poets. Every single thing she says is a lightning rod and my favorite part of everything that she said, there were two amazing things that she said in the media tour. One is, you don't have to bubble wrap me. My fans do not have to have to. to bubble wrap me. I loved that. She was just like, I got this. I'm okay.

People don't need to bubble wrap me in their minds as much as they do. Do you know what I mean? I was just, I was, I kept watching it. I was like, it was out of context. I'm a pretty tough broad. And also, that wasn't even. But then secondly, you know, she just said like, art is a mirror. And like, I love the chaos. When you talk about my music or you talk about my name, it's helping. everybody is allowed to feel exactly how they want and what our goal is as entertainers is to be a mirror oftentimes an album is a really really wild way to look at yourself and that's what's happening this week

I just unexpectedly this is the most interesting release of the decade because of how people of all different ilks are receiving it how the internet slop is piling on on all sides. It's suddenly, to me, this fascinating study of where we are as a society. Yeah, it's, it's for, again, for an album that I think is mostly light, although obviously it has its list of grievances. So maybe that's not quite the right word.

But that goes down pretty easily. It is remarkably discursive. And I agree with you that that's really interesting. And I totally agree with you. Those were two of my absolute favorite. moments of the various interviews that she's been doing. And particularly the mirror comment, I think, has made me think a lot about the ways that different members of those different groups that you laid out experience her music and

that I think there's a bit of this distinction that becomes clearer and clearer to me between the stands and the fans where the stands sort of process it less as music and more as like raw material that allows them to feel connected to the person of Taylor Swift. And then the fans love her and love the music, but they're hearing songs. And I think those two ways of receiving it can lead to very different reactions and outcomes. Outcomes. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I am still like processing how much noise there is around this and how much of it is real. and how much of it is fake. And then, you know, this is such a, this album,

you just can't look at it outside. And we talked on the last one. It's a important brick in the temple. On a standalone basis, I think it would be a fine pop album. I'm so glad that it exists because, as she has been telling us, it is a reflection of where she actually is in her life.

And, you know, there are times where I feel, a little bit wary of us diving too much into her personal life in the conversation. But the truth is that part of the fandom is rooted in tracking this woman from 15 years old to now 35, right? And the personal journeys that she's gone on because she's invited us into those. And every album that she has put out has been a reflection of where she is personally. She's not done a whole lot of like, you know, Joni Mitchell scene painting. done a lot of personal expression, publishing her diaries in all kinds of ways. And so I think that

the personal component is actually very important. And it's why there just was this overwhelming outpouring of support and really celebration around her engagement because so many people were invested in her getting to that relationship and finding that relationship. But it also is conversely why it sort of opened up this lane for discussion about her as a creator from a place of joy. And, you know, especially as she has so clearly on this media tour contrasted it intentionally with tortured poets, where she put out an album that was full of misery and full of authentic feeling at a time in which she had put all those feelings to bed and moved into the joy phase. And so now here she is experimenting with what it's like to create something that comes from that place. of lightness. But boy, if we were wondering whether her stardom was going to fluctuate,

it is evolving and changing, but the lightning rod that this human being continues to be for discourse, particularly this time around, I guess, is a reflection of the monocultural moment that she made to bring everybody together. Inevitably, those things always eventually start to show cracks, just like she put forward in that pre-release campaign, the pictures of her sort of starting to crack. It's funny to me. This is also something that I've been thinking a lot about. Like, this doesn't, this happens to an extent with other artists,

but I do think that the point you made about the kind of, the tension that I know we feel, and I think a lot of people feel, and I think exists in sort of within the discourse, about how much her personal life, is interwoven with the music and how difficult it is to separate those things. Like, I think that has a lot to do with it because I just, I had been thinking a lot about, like, this just doesn't really happen with other artists in the same way.

And to some extent, I think this is the world and the fan behavior that she has created and encouraged because, you know, she doesn't Easter egg like this anymore. but back in the day it was the liner notes and the secret messages that were telling fans this is who this song is about

and you know this is sort of direct mapping onto her personal life and so obviously you know that behavior is learned

and I think that you know, in general, I really agree with what she said about you're holding a mirror up. And when you hold the mirror up, it's actually not about her, right? It's not entirely about her, right? It's about how this music goes out into the world, how it's received, what it makes people think, what it makes people feel. But it's just, that's just really messy. And I know because I've talked with you on this pod, with other people, with some of the people who have

messaged us in both ways about the ways that I have bumped up against some of the centering of a very traditional family life in this album. And to me, like, that's part of what's made me think about this. Because, like, I don't in any way begrudge her personal choices. I think they seem wonderful. She seems very happy. As art, I have a completely different mindset and a completely different conversation.

And I just totally acknowledge that because it is Taylor Swift, those things are so much harder to detach from each other than with almost any other artist. Now we're, this is just what happens when we haven't quite like chatted in a little bit, even though it's only been a couple days, because now we're going and we got to get to our questions because we had a lot of questions. And we'll go for a little while. And then maybe, you know, as we've been saying, this is a very discursive album. maybe we'll have another one of these in us and we'll keep going.

But I think we should just see where we end up because I know we have more questions than we can get to. But without further ado, let's actually, you mentioned the Adele record, which was a subject that came up a lot. And as I think I said when you were bringing it up, that had totally not occurred to me in the lead up to this album that she was going for that record. and now that it is so obvious and clearly mission accomplished, it explains so much about everything in the rollout to me. Yes. Like, it explains the way that she hyped this album up.

It explains, I don't know if it explains every detail of, like, I think we're onto something with just the showgirl photos are great photos and she wanted to do that. And that explains some of the disconnect for people between the visuals and the music. But the variance and, like, you can just sort of- Yeah, the daily launch of the variance. Draw a straight line from almost everything that she did in the lead-up to this album to that end goal.

And we got a question from Freddie, which was if breaking the Adele record would be tarnished at all by the variance. and if the general public would even know about something like that or care? What do you think? I don't think the general public really is going to care about the record. I think the difference between now and 10 years ago is like massive in terms of how we count these things because physical sales have obviously fallen off a cliff. And now you can work the algorithm effectively to produce the desired first week results.

all of that said, like, is there any doubt that Taylor Swift should have this record? None in my mind. And so I think it's perfectly appropriate. And I think people can be of two minds. Like, on the one hand, yes, it's been very commercial. It has. And I think depending on where you fall on the, I mean, on the scale, there's a sliding scale of, I need to insert myself and protect other people from their own vulnerability. and then there's another one that's like, hey, everybody has complete agency. And if they want to spend a disproportionate amount of their disposable income on a series of variance, then let them do it. And who cares? Like, good for Taylor. Like, why is it a problem that she's creating commerce?

Like, nobody yells at Amazon for putting up the, if you like this, you might also like this suggested buying thing. Like, it's the same thing. And so I sort of- Some people yell at Amazon about it. Fair enough. Fair enough. But like it's all, it's all business.

That's show business, baby. And she's doing it. And so, you know, do I care about the record? Do I think the general public cares about the record? Probably not. But again, as we've talked about, like, you know what's over is the debate over whether she's the goat of her generation and one of the goats of all time? That's settled law.

If you don't subscribe to that, then, you know, as she talked about her favorite scene from Succession, like, I love you, but you are not serious people. That debate is over. So all we're talking about here. I wonder she was thinking about when she watched that moment and felt it resonate. Yeah. All we're thinking about here is the nuance of what she does with this greatness and where each step along the way for someone who has, has, has, for all of the eras, they are chapters in a novel that we are still invested in. And again, that's why I think this chapter on its own stands alone fine, but it is so much more interesting and so much more important in the context of the other 11 albums that she's made and the tour that she just got off of and the things happening in her personal life. That's what makes this

album really interesting and her own sort of cultural import in the way that people respond to it. So look, in broad strokes, no, it doesn't diminish. it in any way. Yes, I think we ought to be taking way less emphasis off of first week sales. That's actually bad for artists overall because what happens is labels try to just nail the numbers. And then if you didn't hit something, you stop paying attention and you move on to what's next. Whereas, you know, the most impactful art is stuff that's going to stay with you. Like the right metric is how frequently this stuff is getting streamed in six months, in 12 months. that's what you should be going for because it means that a bunch of bot farms didn't set up and

start, I'm saying that's what's happening on Taylor's, but there are definitely labels that have subscribed to Masters of the Dark Internet Arts who can come in and create ways to spoof IPs and boost first week streams and sales. Now, in Taylor's case, she's doing it the old-fashioned way. She's doing it through cold hard cash, baby, and people are going on to iTunes and they're buying the finals and they're buying the CDs. And again, I fall on the side of, of these people have agency. Let them do it. If that's how they want to spend their money,

you know, great, go for it. Doesn't diminish the record for me. I, and this is not a, this is not a Taylor thing. This is a, this is an industry-wide thing. I would like to see a reckoning over the amount of plastic. Like, vinyl's have become such a big thing, and almost everybody does it. And I think there's a real conversation to be had there.

And in that way, I don't love, the behavior around the variance, that doesn't really make me feel any way in particular about breaking the record. You know, that Adele album was, like, part of why it had the record is that it was purchased and consumed in a different kind of way than most of its contemporary albums, right? So, like, you could say the same thing of that as you could say of this album to an extent. So I don't love the variance, but I don't think that it tarnishes that record. And I think it will make sense that in, you know, 10 or 50 or 100 years, somebody looks that up. And if it lasts, it says Taylor Swift there.

Right. And for that, she should have that record. I didn't like the feel of this rollout because I kept expecting that these countdown clocks, there was going to be some surprise. We were going to get some music in advance. We were going to get some insight. We were going to get something. And we didn't. And so that took some of the excitement of the surprise reveals out of it. And as we talked about last time, I feel like it almost made us not pay as much attention to some of the cool things that she really did, like stacking the album titles in the shape or the song titles in the shape of the stage or the supposedly 100 Easter eggs that are in the music video.

Like there actually is some really cool gamesmanship and Easter writing that she did. I think it got washed over a little bit by the commercial part of it. And I don't think they have any apologies or regrets about that because I do think the purpose was go get this record. We did it. It is an interesting insight that a milestone and a trophy like that is still so meaningful to her at this point. Like that ambition has to go somewhere. And I think we sort of now understand that around this, a fair portion of it was driven. directed at that milestone and and they did it.

Okay. Sophie, what has been your favorite discovery or an opinion that has evolved since the drop? What do you think? So, I know a lot of people are going to be disappointed in me that's not really evolved my thinking on wish list in general, but I will say every time I listen to it, the leader, us the fuck alone and they do wow. I'm like in love with that wow. I think it's so funny. I think

the delivery is so perfect. Yeah. I'm really for a song that I don't have that much positive to say about that one moment I think is spectacular.

I love wish list and I loved watching her dance to it on Jimmy Fallon. I step up down, got a wish, just list, I just want you. And I say this not because I liked watching her dance, but because it wasn't actually the dancing stuff. When you watch

her listen to her own music in that context, and they played a bunch of songs, you could see the things that she was highlighting, the little moments, the little vocal run, or the chord changes that she sort of would was almost conducting with her hands. So it was a teaching moment about the things across the songs that they played

that she really gloms onto and loves. So that was fun for me. And I think, you know, I don't think my thinking has evolved very much on this over the last couple of days. But I do think, I do think that the language that she used on this album was purposeful.

You know, she said the last album was poetry and intentionally so. And this was intended to be something different. And I think she endeavored to make something that was different, in part because she listens. And this is exactly what we asked her to do, was to edit herself, both in terms of the number of songs,

but also the structure. And so I think that we probably underestimate how intentional some of the simplicity and silliness and fun. funness of the language. Like, I think that was the point of this album. And I think if you go back and listen to our last episode, we understood that. But I do think, um, rather than a suggestion that's out there that, you know, Taylor Swift is regressing to the mean from a vocabulary standpoint. Travis's's vocabulary has gotten better and Taylor's is getting worse. No, I'm sorry, kids. Like,

go listen to the media stuff. She's not forgetting words. She's not forgetting good words. Like, She's just intentionally make, this whole thing was in, if tortured poets was a lovely hostage situation that was like eating glass, but sweet glass, this was intended to be the easiest thing you could ever take down. And, and I appreciate that. Like, she didn't want to do the same thing on album 12. And that is why, again, you have to put it in context with everything else that she's done. If this was album one, this is fucking Chapel Roan's first album, you can think about it one way. But when it's the 12th from someone who is only 35 years old, you have to think and evaluate it differently. I'm still on sweet glass, like eating glass but sweet glass.

That delicious sweet glass. I love to chew on it. It was a lot. Yeah, well, so, okay, that... And I loved it. Takes us to one of my favorite questions, actually, which is from RJ. Because you were just talking about some of the feedback that she took from tortured poets. What do you think the main piece of feedback, fan-based feedback, that Taylor will take from this album is?

I'll start, and I want to hear your thoughts. For me, it's what we talked about before. I hope that she forces herself to get bored, forces herself to allocate a higher percentage of the pie chart of her time to the next album. I want her to marinate in it

and sit with it. Not that this isn't exactly what it's supposed to be. It is. But this album was written unlike Mondays and Tuesdays in Sweden, I guess, in between like resting her weary body and trying to have a personal relationship

and all the other things that are demands on her time. And so if there's one bit of feedback that is coming that feels to me to be like from a really good place and thoughtful, it is take some time. We're okay. If you feel so compelled and must create, please create. But I don't know, there's times when she speaks, I think the weight of that fan base

that powers her and fuels her and energizes her is weight sometimes. And I think she feels this obligation. And I'd love for her to be selfish. And that's why all this discourse around, is she giving up herself for a man? Is she, you know, subjecting her career? No, I mean, she's sort of outright rejected that. She said, that's so offensive to think that, like, I have to quit my job just because I'm getting married. Like, fuck off. To me, it's just, hey, Taylor, you have been running around so busy in so many. many other places, I want to see what happens as she has time, as she gets bored, as she is at rest, like then let's see what happens from a creative standpoint on what she has to say. I don't know.

What do you think? Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I wonder if, I think there's a, and we got a question about this too, there's a common takeaway, I think, that's out there that she sort of quote unquote doesn't have a lot to say right now. And or at least doesn't have a lot to say that's new. And I think that tends to come from people who are most compelled by the songs on this album that are from the perspective of someone who's been wronged, which is, you know, the Taylor Swift is on that. Like, that's, that is, that's not necessarily new territory. Right. And I don't, I just, I can see that being the thing that she hears loud and clear.

It's a little less clear to me what you do about that. Other than maybe it is what you're saying, maybe it is take a little bit more time, you know, think a little bit more about what message it is that the songs are meant to communicate or, just live a life that's not so dominated by her work. Her work and being on tour and... That's the problem, though. She loves to work. She lives to work. That's the problem.

And the amazing thing. It's the yin and yang of her greatness. Would you tell her, would you tell her, I mean, there's two ways that she can go from here if she really wants to shake it up. I mean, for me, the most like eyebrow-raising moments of her career were red when she did, you know, the beat drop. I know you were trouble and we were never ever getting back together. That was like a, whoa, what is going on moment? I think reputation wasn't that because of the way that it was sort of received controversially to begin with and then grew on people.

I think folklore people are like, holy shit. Taylor Swift just poured herself into a completely different sonic and lyrical environment. And that's when you started to realize this is like one of the greatest of all time and a shapeshifter beyond all. So I am interested next to see if she shifts shifts shapes. And that could mean... She tells seashells by the seashore. Does she go back and do country? It could mean, does she go, you know, collaborate.

with a ton of house and dance artists. It could mean like the next younger generation of producers. I don't know. How do you, do you think that that's a thing? I mean, we all were like, please stop working with Jack and Aaron. And so she went to Max, which is great. But I wonder if her own curiosity will fuel that.

And if she will quietly drop into somebody's DMs, the same way she did with Aaron Destner and do his, you know, just texting and was like, hey, would you ever do something sometime? I can't help but wonder if her curiosity will drive her in that way. Is that something that you would advise her to do? To drop into somebody's DMs and just... No, but it may be the next step for her is to start exploring...

I wouldn't advise anyone to do. Yeah. I mean, she could do an album called Mother with all of these up-and-coming pop girls and, you know, featuring on each song and sort of established... But I don't think she's ready to be, even though she's talked a lot about legacy on this. media to her. I don't think she's ready to be a legacy artist. I think she still feels like she has more to say and wants that more to say. And I think the life experiences that she's about to go through

are going to fuel that. I think the only question is then who does she then partner with to draw it out of her and to be the editor of the next collection of music that she puts out. Yeah, I mean, this is this. Someday I hope she makes an album, I don't care if it's all. But I would like her to get together with a bunch of women and find out what music comes of that experience. Because that would be new. It would be a new thing for her. And that's a place that she could go that she hasn't before. But I don't know.

I don't think it's as simple as the Jack and Aaron sound has been done for a few cycles. Switch it up, go more pop. And by the way, this is actually, this is, this is, this is, this is, there was a question Forever Tins this season What Hot Take About this album has surprised you And mine is the

Like do we owe Jack Antonoff an apology thing Which is not to say that I Like Do you not think that Max and Shelbeck Did their jobs like really pretty well On this? I do

Yeah Me too I mean I think the The songs are Tight I think the hooks are good the melodies are good. It's not necessarily

like sort of obvious in a way that 1989 reputation era Taylor Max, Sheldbeck songs were so in your face

and so sort of potent in that way. It's subtler. Yeah, it doesn't sound like something else to me, does it, to you? It doesn't sound like one of her previous albums,

which I appreciate. Yeah, no, me too. I'm, that's the discourse that I'm flabbergasted by. is the, is like that there's sort of dissatisfaction with the production and that the impulse to tweak in a new direction and find packages, find musical packages

that are a little bit crisper, but that wasn't a good idea. Like, I'm so mission accomplished on that, which isn't to say that she never goes back in the other direction. I think it totally worked. Like, I'm bopping, you know? Yeah. I think her superpower is,

is melding melody and lyric. And that's why I think the Desner and Jack, the Desner in particular collaboration was so effective because he had a bunch of stuff on his hard drive that he would send her and bang, the magic would happen. And she'd return something an hour later that was, you know, fucking folklore and Evermore, right? So that's why I guess what I had suggested was maybe,

yeah, I'd love her to play with other people's hard drives. Like, play with stuff that falls off their hard drives and just see how that works. I think in listening to some of the variant, you know, voice notes and stuff, you can hear the way some of these songs were constructed. And she was certainly a part of putting together the chords and songwriting. She wasn't just taking a pre-made, a prefab piece of music and then putting melody and vocals over it, right? So to that extent, I think this appears to have been a more robust, integrated collaboration. songwriting as opposed to, you know, somebody wrote the music and Taylor wrote the lyrics and melody. But so, which is to say, I think Max and Shelbeck did their jobs fine.

Yeah, I'm two thumbs up. Do you think, because we did get this question from Tiffany when it comes to TS-13, and again, we're not there. I hope it's a good long while. Maybe we are, though. But, I mean, yeah, right. Because this is what I texted you the other day. I mean, the thing about this that I just realized in the last couple days is this shit is a year old.

Her feelings are the same. You know, she's a billion and joyful and happy. Fucking, she's had a year to write songs. She got a lot of songs in the bag. Yeah. Yeah. And every song she writes from here on out, like in theory, if there's a project that it's building towards, it would be that. So here's the question.

Do you think that that's the album, you know, the 13th album, the totem of the numeral. Do you think that she would do something like go get in other people's hard drives? Or how likely do you think a Jack and Aaron reunion is after this? I think my takeaway from this week of her media tour is like she writes from where she is. She made tortured poets from a place of misery. She put it out even though she wasn't at the time. This one she wrote from a place of happiness. I think she's going to write from where she is.

And there is a magic and wonder and mystery to the creative process that I think the reason she's been so successful is she has followed her own. And that's what she's going to do. I don't think she's going to pre-calculate because it's my 13th, I'm going to go back to this well. I think she's going to see where she is. I hope that if she takes the number 13 seriously,

which I'm sure she will, but like if she decides that she's going to try harder, which I don't think is the case. I think she tries hard every single time. But if for some reason she was going to make this super extra special, the only thing I think she would do is good decisions come from good options. So I think she'd go develop option value by talking to and working with and sitting with lots of producers now that she's not gallivanting around and songwriters,

now that she's not gallivanting around the world. Just like open up the possibilities and see what resonates with you. Because you can, because you do have time. Okay. this one's in a slightly different direction. And the question is from Will. And the first word of the question is also Will. But it is Will Charlie respond, i.e. studio photo yesterday.

Which actually at this point is not yesterday. It's a couple days ago. Yeah. Like, why shouldn't she? You know, work it out in the stew. That's where this should take place, right? Like, you don't need to beef in the streets. Just beef in the studio.

Well, she posted that stuff of her in the studio, right? Yeah. Yes, which presumably was... I mean, I guess it could have been contemporaneous. I just... With all the slop that's out there right now, if I'm Charlie, it was helped... Just as Taylor said, in the chaos,

as long as you mentioned my name, it helps. I think just Charlie being in the discussion helped as much as possible, and I just wouldn't enter the fray. That would be my advice to her right now. It would be create if you feel so inclined. But like we don't need to like, this does not need to be a Drake Kendrick battle over the next six months.

Yeah. No, I agree with you on that. And I think that would be like not the most, not a desirable outcome for her, for, like for anybody. I do think that if she feels like, and I think this is true Taylor too. If she feels the impulse to create, as you said, see if something good comes of it.

I don't think that that has to be a universally like, you know, warm, fuzzy origin story for a good and interesting song. Like clearly in Taylor's case, something else happened. So human emotion is interesting.

That's part of why we consume art. And if that puts Taylor in the studio, if that puts Charlie in the studio, you know, maybe somebody needs to take a shot at Harry Stiles. Because goodness knows he's not doing a lot of time hanging out there running marathons. I'm sorry. I don't know why I felt the need to go on that diversion.

Don't bring Harry into this. It's like another marathon, Harry? Where is the album? Yeah, we need him to get out of Italy out of the race and the album's got to come soon. It's coming. Don't worry. Is it? Training for a marathon seems hard and time-consuming.

You know what else was a marathon? I mean, he's like always buying socks in Rome. The Erez tour was a long-ass marathon every night. She still made a record. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Somehow I think it's, they're in different places.

Okay. Well, that was that. Oh, here's one we have to hit. Rachel asked for a reminder of the Bev origin story. The Bev origin story is that there is a voice all over midnight's that just comes out of nowhere and that is sort of singing lines

in the background that we had no idea who it was I mean I think we kind of knew it was probably an altered Taylor voice or an altered Jack voice at times but we just gave it a name and that's Bev Hi Bev

Kai have run the clips chasing the fame he stayed the same all me changed like midnight Okay, this is from Abby. Will Showgirl get any award noms? I'm going to take the liberty to make this a question about the Grammys. I think at this point, the Grammys are such a fucking joke in the way that they include and exclude people.

That if I am the head of the Grammys, I'm thinking about ratings and Taylor Swift equals ratings. So is she going to get a nod? I think she probably is. It would be weird if this album continues to break record after record after record for it not to get a nomination. So let's reframe it because I agree with you. Do you think she has a chance to win serious categories?

Yes, because she's Taylor Swift. I do not think that this is going to win the album of the year. I don't know. But we have more things to be entered. And I think that's as much a political thing within the Grammy organization as it is. is a judgment of the art, honestly. Like, I just don't think people are going to give her five,

given the sort of variety of reception to this album. But, like, it deserves the consideration. I think it's a pretty good record. And we'll see how people go from here. And pop album would be interesting. And I agree with you about it's very political. I do think that it matters to her. It does.

In the same way that the records and all of that. I hope it matters less and less. I feel like now that she's clear of everyone else and has the most albums of the year, I mean, obviously I think she's still hoping for songs someday. But I would think that this feels like a record that she has and that maybe the, you know, I don't think she was bummed about tortured poets.

I think she was probably thrilled to be nominated and expected that, that one wasn't going to get an album of the year not. Where are you on? I don't think that Fate of Ophelia is going to get her song, but I want to talk about that song, so I'm just going to use it as a springboard. Where are you, after a few days on the fate of Ophelia?

We did get a question on whether or not it had sort of wormed its way into your head a little bit more. No, I'm in the same place I was, which is to say, like, I watch the Fallon thing. I think people like Opelite more. they know everyone? Interesting. I think people like Wood more.

That's not to say it's a bad song. But I think those are more universal melodies to organize around. I think the melody of the fate of Bophilia is so infectious. Yeah. And I like all those songs that you're talking about, but that, I mean,

that is the song and that is still the song that has the most ear-wormy qualities to me. So I'm, I'm, She sold it as such and she is the goat. So, you know, I defer to her judgment. I mean, she's not always like the best single picker.

But I'm, I think she's, I think she did the right one. But you're not the only person that I've heard that from that they're like, why was it on? Oh, polite. It's so catchy. I think it's just the minor chord structure in the song makes it hard, not, makes it maybe not for everyone. That's all. And that's not that people don't like it. It's just that I think there's a.

there's some part of it that doesn't earworm for everybody. And I thought looking in the crowd last night that there were some pretty excited people around Wood and around Opelite. Excited people around Wood. Okay. Well, then let's go there. This is from Kate. I loved the phrasing of this question. Will she do it?

Will she release Wood as a single? I would. I wish she would. I don't really know what that means anymore because what does that mean? Right, it's yeah. Will she make a music video for Wood is the most interesting question.

And what the fuck will that be? I don't. I mean, here's the thing. The more... We should talk a little bit more. We should make sure we hit some questions about where you are with this album lyrically because I think that sparked

a lot of interesting discussion. I have to say, I am like really on my soapbox that I think Wood is pretty clever And I understand that this is a song about penises or one penis But I think the way that she Weaves it together to make it consistently legible As a song that is tongue in cheek about like superstition and luck Is really deft

And I She was hiding it from her mom She was hiding it Taylor, Andrea knows what it's about. She knows what the song's about. Let's be honest. But there's not, like, it works on both of those levels may be silly, right? But it works on both of those levels at basically every turn.

And I mean, that's really hard to pull off. And I think she did it. And I'm just a fan. Penny's unlucky I took him back and then stepped on a cry and black had laughed Yeah, I mean, why not?

She hasn't done this before. And again, I think in context, in sequence of these albums, like this was one of the areas in which she just gave herself permission to be lighter, to be sillier, to be sexual,

to do the innuendo thing, to not have it need to be tied to some deeper insight about the universe or discovery of her own depth of emotion. She could just write a few of these songs. And I think that's, again, it's not that deep. And that's great. I'm thrilled to be able to catch my breath on TS12 after the manuscript.

This question made me laugh from Kate. Do you ever think about the Kelsey Swift children having to go to school and reckon with the existence of Wood being about their dad? My answer, I hadn't until you sent this question. It's fine.

I, something popped up in my feed the other day about how Clooney just took his kids to France because he just had to get him out. And, you know, I don't know, what are they going to do? We'll see. It's the same thing that the, that all the famous people have to deal with. They're going to have to deal with the same thing. Yeah, I think it'll be fine.

This was another question. I just want to read some of these that made me laugh. This was from MJK. Was this necessary? Should she have sat with it a bit? Is this her I am the walrus? What do you think? Should she have sat with it for a bit?

She sat with it for a year. She sat with it for a year. Is this or I am the walrus? I don't know. Like, the Beatles are in some ways a good comp, right? There's a level of things happen when you're prolific. But no, I think it's fine. I think it's time to sit.

But I don't think that this was meant to be difficult in the way that something like tortured poets is. is kind of challenging. But honestly, I just wanted to read that question because it made me laugh. Here's a question from Ashley, because I wanted to talk a little bit more about the lyrics.

Why are people acting like this album isn't lyrical? Are they listening to Ophelia and eldest daughter? And you can take that as, you can take that as about those specific songs, but I want to know where you are on the lyrical content of the album. Yeah, I think the lyrics are the most important part of this album. I don't actually think there's anything musically groundbreaking on this record. I think the melodies are good.

I think, you know, it sounds great, but I don't think there's anything, again, there isn't a shape-shifting moment like folklore where you're like, whoa. to me, she's telling us where she is. Can I push back on that a little bit? Yeah, please. I don't think it's like a massive shape shift in a, you know, she comes out from behind the curtain and everything is completely different.

I do think that the part of the thesis of this album, that she was going to take her more recent style of writing and repackage it in something a little bit pithier and a little bit, you know, as we learned, not as shiny as the OG Mac stuff. Can she write poetry for pop? Yeah. I think that that's an evolution,

maybe not a revolution. And I don't know that I think that that's getting quite enough. No, it's about the combination. And I don't like, and that's a different thing to me from is this the strongest writing that she's ever put down on paper. But I do think that she succeeded in keeping up that style and putting a new spin on the kinds of musical casings that could go around that.

And I find that pretty interesting. I think it was done pretty effectively. And I do think that it's a new place for her to be. putting out music from. Okay. I still think the lyrics are the most interesting part of the album because I think they continue the story of this person that we've been invested in on a personal level for a long time. And she is communicating things that she hasn't communicated before. Like at this peak of stardom and of wealth and of adulation, what is the thing that she wants, that she doesn't.

And that's why I think wish list is an important song. I think that one really matters to her. Does it? Let's leave feminism out of it for a second. What does it mean to you that, you know, it's contradicted in some ways on other places on the album, right? Like the picture of father figure. The picture of even like Elizabeth Taylor.

Be right and one. is different, is one of someone with more amb-a, you know, even something like actually romantic, right? Like the self-conception of a person where these detractors are yapping chihuahuas in little purses. Like a toy chihuahua bucking at me from a tiny purse. That's how much it hurts. That's different, right, from all I want. I don't have these other ambitions. I just want this this simple life.

They deserve what they want, hope they get what they want. I just want you. I just want domestic bliss. Yeah, I guess I didn't hear wish list as a lack of ambition. I think she's checked off. I'm not saying that. I don't want to. I just want you.

in this moment, who could blame her? Okay, but hold on, hold on. Let's be a little more specific than that. It does, it's, I just want you, right? Yeah, because I think she's got just about everything else in her life. And I think it speaks to the, this is why I think the words matter, because I think there are very few people on the planet who've ever had the life experience or been in the position that she is in.

And she is communicating on this record that there are, still some of those fundamental human desires and wants and wishes that transcend fame, fortune. And it's a little bit cliche, except that it comes from her. And coming from her, I think it's real because she's telling us this from a position that no one else can actually really relate to. But what you can relate to is the feelings that she has about, I have a kingdom that is hollow because I don't have somebody to share it with in some ways is what I think she has. has been saying about this, that doesn't mean that she defines herself,

or she submits or she subjugates herself to anybody else. That's it. It's just like, hey, I want a partner in this life and you all have been with me on this journey through the trials and tribulations of my seeking of this and my imagination of what it might be like and my failures at it and the pain and all those things. And here I am in this moment and really, gosh,

this is just what I want. I think that's, I think it's a really, important part of the storytelling. And I think she purposefully did it in a, as you said, Pithy, a more concise, controlled way. I think she reversed against the poet. And she just tried to write those words in a more traditional pop structure, which again is why she went back to Max. Is it a little more formulaic? Is I'll never leave, you know, does it feel a little bit less sort of groundbreaking? maybe, but for her, I think these feelings are actually groundbreaking. And this was the container she chose to deliver them to us.

Yeah, I think that's why it's, I think that's why this conversation to me, like, intersects with the lyrical stuff. Because I'm with you that like I totally see the validity of the perspective of I have access to just about everything in the world. And the one thing, like this is the one thing that's seemed impossible. And therefore it's the one thing left. It's the one thing that I want the most. And it's where the specificity of the language comes in, right? Like, because it's things like just that I then go,

Hold on. Like even the, you know, they want the critical smash. They want that critical smash ponda ore and an Oscar on the bathroom floor. They want it. She also has ambitions that have to do with the movies. Like, it's where I start to go, like, I don't quite get it. And I still, I'll be honest. I still, I very much still feel that way.

and that's not at all about her personal choices. But when you talk about holding the mirror up to society, there's a picture in that against our world that I struggle with. And there's also a picture of that against some of the other songs that I go, like, I don't quite get how this all sheds together. You know, let me distill down. what I think is the most interesting part of this art. In the simplest, most direct, digestible way,

she's saying, I'm happy and in love. And it's making a lot of people angry. But I don't, wait, hold on, though. I don't think that's, yeah, maybe. But like, okay, I'm not sure that's the right. I'm not sure I totally agree with that read. And, like, I know that I'm going to hear about this from people, but that's okay.

That's actually part of the point. we live in a world that feels where a lot of culture feels increasingly conservative. And I think people should make choices that are fulfilling for them. I think when those choices match up against what ensures someone's personal safety and security, while people who would make other choices for themselves don't have that, the way that the art interacts with the world is different.

And I don't always feel like this album calibrates to that. And because I think that sense of there are these cultural markers of traditionalism that feel more and more present and that that's a symbol of something a little bit scary, I brush up against it in the album. I don't think that that is, like,

that is a completely separate thing from the idea that if she, that like her getting married means she'll stop working. That's insane. that Taylor Swift should, like Taylor Swift has an amazing, fulfilling career that she's somehow going to like be a tradwife. That's insane. That's like people trying to start debates online.

I do think that when we're talking about how some of that feels as art that holds a mirror up to society, to me, it becomes different. I don't think that it's unfair to have a different reaction to it. I don't think that it makes anyone a bad feminist, but I'm just, I'll be honest, it still gives me the ick. And this is someone who has asked us to see her as political before. I do think that it's okay to say that in the year of our Lord 2025, there are additional layers to any kind of, art or entertainment that is about really any kind of lifestyle. Because that's why we do this.

That's the purpose of, that's why people make things and ask people to talk about them and dissect them and have them spark thoughts about the intention of the work and the world and all of it. I'm like in DMs with people talking about choice feminism. And honestly, I think it's probably healthy. That's just why you have a podcast to talk about these things. Okay. We'll lighten it up here.

This is another one that just made me laugh so hard. From Baker. Y'all hate Peacock, but Love Wood? Explain yourself. I don't feel that I have to explain myself on this one, honestly. What is a better song? What is a better song than Peacock? This isn't like a wholesale approval or disapproval of songs about dicks.

That's not our point of view. But I really appreciate that this person is still, is like in a place where you're recalling our peacock takes. So that's, that's fabulous. Thank you for that. And if you want to ride for peacock over wood. Have had it. Have at it. Have own that corner.

Okay. Bridget, thoughts on documentary timing. It was not the standby surprise. No, it was not. Do you still think that that's coming? Do you think that that, like, do you think it's even a figment of her imagination in the pipeline somewhere?

Yeah, I do. I think it's just a question of when. And it gets to the broader timeline, which is, does she want to drag some of these things? things out. Does she want to drip and, you know, she just want to slow drip reputation vault stuff and documentary and buy herself some time after this whirlwind sprint of a media tour to stay present in people's minds without having to physically be present? Or does she want to do what we saw over the last couple of years, which is there's always some sort of holiday-ish surprise

in the wake of a new album that comes out in the fall around her birthday, around the holidays. Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked. I will be on some amount of alert around her birthday. Yeah. Oh, I know what question I want to end on. We won't do that yet, but we'll do a last few here. This was from Alana.

Are there any clean versions of lyrics that you like more than the explicit ones? Would, by the way. Actually doesn't need any edits. Which is very funny. father figure is easier for me to sing. You're more comfortable with Czech than Dick. I think I'm more comfortable with Czech.

I kind of think it would be cool if she had started with Czech and then it became Dick. Like that would be a fun, you know, third time around, a little twist. But I don't think Czech is better. But I do all, like, I like Czech. I think mostly, you know, they suffer for needing to be sanitized, but check works very well. Megan, can you shed light on the music rights of it all? Should she be paying the pixies, the Jonas Brothers, etc.? I think that when you get deeper into the liner notes, it appears to me that in a number of these cases, she is.

but in some of them she isn't and I do think that there may be some behind the scenes conversations happening by some of the estates of or existing artist lawyers who either rightly or out of opportunistically sense an opportunity yeah there might be some amount of opportunism

although I also I kind of feel like almost no one would really go at her on it. Like, I don't think the Jonas Brothers, the Jonas Brothers aren't coming for Taylor Swift. They're just not. Like, whatever they would get in the, you think Nathan's making a face at me. Do you think not? I think I would like to understand

the delineation between why George Michael is listed as a writer on one song. And some of these other interpolations did not rise to the level of a writer credit and presumably the economics across those things. I think it would be very interesting to hear her or her camp articulate that because she has trailblazed on this and been an incredible advocate for writers and making sure that artists get paid what they're worth. And she has some perspective on this. That's the quiet interesting business question

that this person asked because I think that to me I'd love to hear what the actual view was and how they thought about it. It's very possible that behind the scenes these things have already been worked out and that they were worked out before the album was put out. But in terms of actual recognition,

people are hearing some things that pretty universal agreement that there is some influences on this album. And I just wonder, I just wonder what rises to the level of getting into the liner notes and what doesn't. I just think that I'm sure there's plenty going behind the scenes, going on behind the scenes. And I agree if it would be interesting to hear more about her perspective on that. I just, I think that there are not that many artists who would press the issue publicly because I just, the downside is significant. The one exception to that, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

think the Jackson estate will sue you if they feel like that's the right move. So that would be the one where I would be like, oh, I don't, maybe don't get involved there. But for the most part, like the Jonas brothers, I don't think that they, I think they are smart enough to not incur the wrath of. Yeah, but there's a difference between, I mean, Taylor never said anything publicly about Olivia and all of a sudden, bleep, the liner notes changed. Sure. Yeah. So that's the course. I don't think anybody's going to raise their hand and be like,

that requires Olivia cooperating, right? And obviously there's been stuff that's come out of that, but they did say yes. And I guess the scenario I'm playing out is if somebody's lawyer emailed Taylor's camp and said, hey, you know, don't you feel like we should get this? She said no. and they wanted to press the issue,

I just think that there is a lot of downside there for most artists. Well, that will be the calculation for lawyers to make. Is there more downside for Taylor Swift in that situation to be sued as the artist advocate? The opposing lawyer will try to make that case. Yeah, so maybe she would just say, yeah. I suspect that if people all work in good faith

and there's really an issue, it'll get worked out. if it hasn't already. That's a question that I would love one of the 15 or 20 people who got an hour with Taylor Swift to just ask, hey, you are one of the great champions of artists being paid

what they're worth of this and any generation. How do you think about these things? There are a few things that fans hear. Did you hear them? Were they intentional? Obviously, you recognize George, Michael and worked that out with the estate. That is super cool and you lifted up a guy who in many ways

was in the same position as you were feeling like he didn't own his art and feeling, you know, oppressed by large companies as a result of that or individuals as a result of that. Incredible stuff. You are a champion. Can you talk us through how you thought about that and whether there's any other instances on this album where you reached out to anybody else or was that it? Like that would be a fascinating answer from somebody who is deeply thoughtful and very present. principled and trailblazing about this stuff. Yeah, it would be interesting. Okay, I'm going to take one, and then we're going to, I know the last, the question that we have to go out on.

And the one that I'm going to take is that there were some people who were asking me to elaborate more on, on canceled, and in particular, if I would still not like it, if it was about Blake. And I do, like, I do have a little bit of a, I thought about that too. I don't like the song musically very much, which is also part of where I'm coming from. I think to the extent that my thinking on it has evolved a little bit, I think what's crystallized to me is that she has an idea. Like, I think Taylor seems to have an idea of cancellation that is in line with something she experienced in 2016. And that makes a lot of sense to me. The way that we use that term, or at least that I perceive that term, has morphed pretty dramatically since then.

Right. And I can see how if you had this life-altering personal experience, you'd be stuck there a little bit. And, like, that would really influence how you think about that. I think right now, it's an idea that to me is so wrapped up in some of the worst faith actors in our discourse that I just, I just can't. I just, it just doesn't go down well for me. And again, we are separating the art from the artist here.

It's just my personal experience of the song. So that's sort of why it doesn't change that much, even if it's, about Blake, who I do think is like an interesting, you know, you could argue that if you want to talk about someone who probably has suffered like real career reputational consequences that have been fomented by someone who's not acting in good faith, at least as far as I can see it, like it's, that's an interesting idea for a song because the language of it just is so intertwined with this thing that rubs me the wrong way. It's like I just can't get there.

But I do, it's interesting. And I've enjoyed talking to people about it. That said, last thing from Allison. Wait. What is the Black Dog about? Like, did you have to tell the Black Dog Pub that they might be getting a few calls? I did. I did not.

And still nobody knows like what I'm even talking about on that song. They still have, they think they know, they have no idea. This is a thing that kept me up for like two hours the other night. I mean, this woman, she will never give us peace. Exactly. The Black Dog is one of my favorite Taylor Swift songs of all time. Same! How you don't miss me in the Black Dog

when someone plays the starting line and you jump up. And her saying that nobody knows. what it's about is crazy. It's crazy because the music

like there's a direct Maddie Healy musical reference and you can't there's no metaphor for you left your location on.

Right. It's not a song that's like wrapped up in linguistic it's like you were at some bar called the Black Dog. And so I watch

as you were. and to somber called the black dog And I hope it's shitty at the black dog There's not a lot of mystery behind the sentiment of I hope it's shitty at the black dog Yeah, this one, if I get too deep into this, it's gonna drive me bananas. So do you think...

Because the song means so much to me personally and I... Again, the follow-up. Somebody follow up these questions and go, oh, that's interesting, Taylor. Well, what the fuck is about? Because I've listened to it no less than a thousand times in my life.

What does it mean? So here's my, like, totally pulled from my rear what it made me think. I do kind of wonder if, I wonder if it's, not really that everybody has it all wrong. And there's like some, you know, the main black dog pub wherever

that started getting all sorts of calls and got sort of like flagged as, oh, this must be the place. I wonder if it's just, it was a different black dog. And I do, I feel like, you know, this album is called The Life of a Showgirl.

I do feel like there are songs on tortured poets that you could, you could pull together you know, but daddy I love him, Clara Bo, like I would have to think on what the exact track list

would be. But you could pull together at least a solid EP that would really make sense as one designed to pull back the curtain on the life of a performer, someone who like

has this relationship between their art and their artifice and what's actually going on behind the scenes. And I do feel like she has really pulled back on this album that I think she probably wrote

from this place of joy and like gratitude for the fans and what the era's tour had been. I think she pulled back a fair bit of the like you guys are obsessed with me and it's ruining my life kind of because it's probably not right now. Like you know, there's truth in that

but I think there's a restraint on the on the narrative threat. of does she have some like resentment of the fan base sometimes

or like some of the fan base or some of the complicated things that that poses for her? And I just wonder if there's this little impulse to be like, you don't actually know, you guys don't actually know and it's more of a detail than a wholesale misunderstanding of the song

and that people actually do kind of know what it's about. I just... Don't understand. It's just the whole time. He's like, what's going on? I mean, I'm sitting here in Nashville. There is, there was, you know, he came to the Nashville shows and she was, it was a rain show, and she was completely drenched and they were spotted in the car going back to her place

in Nashville. So the only thing I could think of was, is there something about, there's a music studio in Nashville called Black Dog Music Room, but she specifically in the song calls it some bar. are called the Black Dog. And it's the starting line, which we know is a maddie. I just, I don't know. Yeah, that's one of those, maybe it's the girl in the bar. Maybe there's more to it for sure, but.

Or maybe is, I mean, is it, is it? We have no idea. I can't go down this road with you. Like, did it happen to somebody else? And then she sort of imagined what it would be like if it happened to her. I don't know. I still kind of think it's about what we think it's about. I'm going to go stream it right now.

My final answer, I think we got the bar wrong, but like everything else is kind of good. All right, this has been every single album, Taylor Swift. I'm Nora Prynciotti. As always, he is Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to Kaya McMullen for producing this episode and to you for listening. We'll talk to you soon.