A Pre-'The Life of a Showgirl' Anxiety Dump
00:00Hello and welcome to every single album.I'm Nora Preciati and as always, I am joined by Nathan Hubbard.For the last episode that we will do before Taylor Swift's The Life of a Showgirl.Nathan, are you ready?How can I not be?She has given us zero to run with.And yet there is always so much.We have some great listener questions.
00:34You guys did kind of bail us out because let's be honest, this entire lead-up, we,and you and everyone keeps being like,there's going to be a single.There's going to be something.There's going to be like all these countdowns.Something's going to be released.We're going to have something really juicy to dig into.Not so.
00:52She's saving it all for the main event.She's describing the glossiness of the photos in the vinyl.They're very glossy.They're glossier than ever before.They've never been glossy in this way.But that's okay.And we're going to find a way to still make apreview pod extravaganza out of this.
01:13Nathan's shaking his head already.I'm good. I just think, look, you and I are coming off.You went to the Chiefs Giants game last night.I know. She wasn't there.She wasn't there. And it's still not entirely clear to me that she went to the first Chiefs game.I think she probably slipped in behind that screen. But like, it's not, there's not a seat in thatKansas City Stadium where you can sit and not be visible. So she maybe,went to a back room. That's not true. Well, yeah, okay, sure. If you want to make a distinction
01:43between a back room and like the seats in the stands, absolutely. That's what I mean.Like there's no like, she didn't watch the game from the stands, right? And so I think like go to 30,000feet. I think there are two storylines behind this album. I really do. And the first is the mostinteresting cultural one for me, which is, is it possible for a person to get, quote, bigger thanTaylor Swift is in this moment or was coming off the heiress tour? Is it possible to actually become abigger star? And if not, is it possible to sustain that level of monocultural dominance? That to me isthe most interesting thing about this album, especially when your fiance is on a football.team that does not seem to be very good right now.
02:36Not great. They did win last night. The chiefs got their first win against my hapless New York Giants.Yeah, a win is a win. Yeah. Take the W where you can. And then the second one is, I think, a darkerquestion that is related to what a giant monocultural force this woman is. And that is, it appears to me.and we saw some Yahoo article this morning about the stalker that I think we'll talk about,but just broadly speaking in the wake of this awful Charlie Kirk situation,it appears to me that she is altering her public appearances.And to what extent does the tension in the country right now,does the insanity of wackos online,
03:25and just the massive nature of her stardom,and the weird thing that is happeningwith high-profile people in this countrybeing subject to violence,how will that alter the way that she shows up?Markets goes out and does stuff for this album.I think those are the two storiesthat to me are the most fascinating.
03:50We're going to get into the music.You and I are going to do two fucking hours, I'm sure,the weekend of October 3rd about this album.But more broadly speaking,I think that's what it means.I don't know.What did I miss?No, I think, I mean, I do want to talk to you about your plans for next week and the theatrical release and all of that stuff.
04:12But I think you're right that those are the two.Like, it's a strange moment for anyone, I think, to be putting art out into the world.I think it is a particularly odd one for someone like Taylor Swift whose scale is so vast to be doing it.And it's interesting.It's also a little scary.Some of it just feels dark.Some of it feels like, okay, maybe we can hope that this will end up being something that, like, in this time that honestly just like,generally feels pretty shitty, I think.
04:45It's something to look forward to.And I think that's meaningful to a lot of people.Let's start.I think the scale, can she get any bigger, is a little bit easier to grapple with.So why don't we start there?What do you think?So what do I think?I think no.
05:04I think that if I were to make the argument for yes,the way that I would do it would be to say that given what she has telegraphed about this album,it seems to me to have a better chance,or at least that she is trying to give it the best possible chance,To have theYes, to have bangersTo have the kind of straight down the middle pop smashYeah.
05:36That for everything that she's doneOver the last several yearsTo increase her star powerBeyond anything that I ever would have expected,that is the one thing that she hasn't quite had.I guess then my question to you isDo you think that that, like is that the thing?thing that does it. Is that the force multiplier that she would need as opposed to something like
06:02a tour that is, you know, three nights a week over the course of months and months and months,because I would say, I would say that I don't think so. But if there were a way to do it,that's what it would be. No, I think you got it right. They're, hey, she's going to be 36 in December.she is not of the 20, 21, 22 year old pop star ilk anymore.This is going to sound so bad, but like, Coldplay is finishing this completely...How many times are you going to bring up Goldplay?Massive fucking tour, okay?But like, the last time they had a song that, like, resonated with culture was, you know, the scientist.
06:47And so Coldplay is for older people now.Taylor Swift is not for older people,but she has this chance to cement the hooks into this young generationif she can put out the song, right?This go-round.Because that, Fortnite was a hit for sure,but it wasn't being played in the basements of fraternitiesand, you know, streamed in that way.
07:15Where culture happens.Whatever.Or, you know, in people.like parties and whatever.Like it wasn't that kind of a song.And so that I think is the only thing that's sort of left to dois can she put out a pop song that is ubiquitousand that sits in those Hot 100 charts for three months,
07:37four months, five months,the way that some of this Hunter XK-hop Demon Hunter shit is sittingor a Morgan Wallin song or die with a smile.Or, you know, does she have that,fastball in her because I do think that, you know, our girl listens. And if there was feedback fromthe last album, what was it, Nora? It was, it was too long. And please stop working with Jack andAaron because some of the stuff is starting to sound familiar. So she said, bam, 12 songs,
08:07bangers, me, Max Martin and Shelbach in a studio in Sweden, that's it. And that's what I thinkthis was geared towards is can she put a song out that has the monocultural force thatthe tour did.And I don't, I guess, I guess I'm not sure that even if it is the smash banger of all smashbangers, and by the way, if it is, like, I will be the happiest customer out there.Yeah.I don't think that that's quite the same phenomenon as a, not quite night in and night out,but week in and week out.
08:45Takeover.where people are creating content at the shows.It is all over everybody's feeds.There's a surprise song every night.Like, I just think that that has the ability to saturate people's lived experiencewhere Taylor Swift is just popping up throughout the course of your day in all of these different ways.That even like the most successful song of all time, it's a little bit more siloed into when are you listening to music?like, okay, yes, you will hear it when you walk into CBS or when, you know, maybe it starts to be in
09:20commercials and all of these, these different things. But I just, I'm not sure that anything candrive something like that home in the way that week after week of pinnacle live events can.And that's not like, that's not, unless that this is, unless this is expressly what she'ssetting out to do, which like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't.I don't get the sense that that's the aim here.That's not good or bad.It's just it's such an interesting cultural phenomenon that she has been able to level up to this point.That I think you're absolutely right to ask the question.
10:02Is there even hypothetically a way to turn the dial up even further?Right.I mean, I think if you were setting odds, I mean, a corollary to the question is,has she lost her superpower and people are going to,there's going to be some backlash over-exposed stuff?Because her superpower has always been knowing when to disappear,knowing when to show up, knowing when to be always on,or when to be totally gone.
10:28And it is not that long since she walked off stage at the Ares Tour.And the engagement announcement heard around the worldwas obviously a reflection of the interest in power in this couple.but they've been on a lot for the last three years.And this is going to test the limits of, I think, the prevailing wisdom,which is, hey, Sabrina puts out an album a year after.Like, you got to stay in people's minds because there's so much content it could go away.This is, the, where I was going with, the betting thing is,
11:05I think the betting markets would say that people are more likely than not to try to spin a narrativethat she's somehow fallen short of expectationsor there's an underwhelm.Like, it's going to be so easy to write that storybecause it is so hard to live up to the place where she's been.And so that was what I wanted to focus you onis like, what are your expectations for this cycle?Like, really, if you just take away the fact
11:34that everybody's going to write something to get clickbaitor create videos talking about.Yeah, and by the way, that cuts in both directions, right?Like it is, I do, I don't want to get too off on a tangent, but like this has become a bit of a pet peeve for me is that I think it is not impossible, but reasonable Taylor Swift discourse becomes harder and harder with every passing day because no one is actually trying to tell you what, not no one.Very few people are actually trying to tell you what they think and what they feel.they are trying to appeal to either side of the extreme,which is the people who are going to try to tear her down no matter what she does,and the people who are not going to use their heads
12:18and who are not actually going to really like experience anything,who are just going to say, I have chosen my stance.And by the way, I think some section of that is fans whose identity has become so wrapped up in itthat it just feels so personal that it's very hard for them to do anything else.And then I think some of that is like spaces in media that don't feel anything at all,but just know that you can generate clicks either way, right?You can do the negative thing or you can do the Taylor Swift has done it again thing.And whether you believe it or not, whether it's cherry picking dad or not, like it just,
12:57it, I soldier on out there, everybody.Like, it's going to be a great week.it's also going to be one where I think a lot of people are going to have to parse through a lot ofnoise. You can do it. You're your own person. Like what you like. Don't like what you don't like.We believe in you. We see. Look, these are two people who started a podcast that was effectively designedto tell everybody that Taylor Swift was great and to try to convince everybody that this was oneof the greatest of all time, both in terms of songwriting, performing business. That's what we reallystarted this podcast to do. That is completely uninteresting now as an angle. And you and I have
13:42expanded this podcast into all pop music as a result, and we come back to Taylor all the time.But one of the things that I think... By the way, like, I wouldn't even say great, you and I boththink that, but that's subjective. I think the thing that like worth taking seriously or likeimperative to take seriously as someone who has impacted the world and culture and art was likereally our are just reason for being and you're so right that it's like now yeah it's just it's likeyeah it's like it's completely uninteresting and but along the way I hope that one of the thingsthat you and I have done is create like a safe space for criticism of Taylor because there ain't nothere are not two people on this planet who I think celebrate her more. I mean, there are two people
14:34on this planet who celebrate her more than we do. But like we got a good 50 hours on tape of ustrying to convince the world that Taylor Swift is amazing and worth spending time on. And so I thinkwe, that gives us some permission to be critical in some ways of things that, you know, aren't perfectbecause nobody's perfect. And that in this moment is actually a little bit more interesting.if I'm being frank.It's the ways in which, you know,one of the greatest of all time,like, how does she continue from here?
15:03So I'm just telling her, like,I am so excited for this album,and I have a sneaking suspicionthat it's going to outperform my expectationsfrom a musical standpoint.I have personally been,how should I say this, Nora?I've been not enthused
15:24by the warm-up campaign.the countdown clocks being somewhat anticlimactic.Like, it's felt commercial to me in a time in which I feel like, you know,we just got done throwing a lot of money at the Taylor Swift Empire.And I, the video this week for me where she actually talked about the vinyl productand stuff about it cut both ways.Like on the one hand, you know, it is.true that there are a ton of fans who just love this stuff. And she wants to make it great for them.
16:00And she's thinking about them. And I value and appreciate that. And at the same time, like,it has felt commercial, this lead-up. And the putting something in theaters, I'm glad she's doing it.It gives fans a safe space. It keeps people from doing, like, pirated, like, fake parties that fans go to and spendmoney on. You know, I understand why it's all happening.The movie theaters need it, and that's great.And she's an aspiring writer-director and, you know.Allegedly.So I think all of that is good.
16:36But all that sort of obfuscates the music.Like, I think she's going to release something that is fucking great.I really do.I think-Yeah, I kind of do too.You and I have had anxiety going into the last two albums.We were anxious about Midnights.We were, at least I was anxious about tortured poets.
16:54because I felt like they were coming to.And they are delights.But this one, I don't feel nervous.I know. Me neither.Whoa.Yeah.I think she's going to kill it.I really do.
17:05Yeah.I kind of do too.And I don't know.I'm with you on all of that.I mean, I don't know.I get so split down the middle about it.Because, and part of it is, and this is not necessarily her responsibility.But as we were talking about a little bit,
17:23and maybe this transitions us into some of the other stuff that you brought up at the beginning.Like, the vibes are bad.Not the Taylor Swift vibes, but like the vibes in the world are bad right now.Yeah.And I just feel like I feel personally just as a human walking around, like it is overwhelmingly present that there are just so few people in the world who have genuine individual power.I think the rest of us have collective power if we can figure out a way to use it.But there are so few people who, just as a one of one, can actually affect change.And so many of those people are just abdicating any responsibility or, like, the ability to have the courage to actually do it.
18:14I don't know if she feels part of that to me.Like, I will be really honest and say that there are moments when someone who I am just,is not used to being someone who over promises and underdelivers.Like, that's not my experience with Taylor Swift, generally.Right.When there's yet another countdown and it turns into just something that people can buy,it lets the wind out of my sales a tad bit.There's a piece of that that I wonder if it's unfair.
18:52Like, she's not, it's not her job to be.like it's not her job to fix the world and it would be a little silly of me to put that on her as a fan.Like that's not what she asked for and I don't think it's really a reasonable thing.I think there are a lot of other people who probably aren't doing what I would like them to be doing who are much more reasonable to put those types of expectations on.Like I, e. people in elected office.But I don't know.You know, sometimes it's like, okay, another $100 cardigan that's made out of plastic.plastic. Like, how many times are we going to do this? But then I start thinking about the fan who
19:36gets to choose how they spend their money. And maybe it means something to them to be able to show upto the movie theater and wear that. And I just like, I'm not going to arrive at a conclusionin this. I just want to be really honest with people about how I feel about the whole thing,because it truly cuts not even both ways,like a lot of different ways.But the thing that I do keep coming back to,as you said, is like,I'm not worried about the music.
20:08Yeah.I'm so ready for Taylor Swift from a place of pure joy.And you've made the argument to me beforethat maybe Lover was some of that.But I think even on Lover,there was some conflict and tension.And, you know, this is going to be a womanon a summer vacation
20:25in between work,but with the human exclamation point,and I just can't wait to seethe art that that created.Me too, although I'm,and by the way,we're going to go rapid firethrough a few questions
20:41that I put up the call forat the end of this.And there's a lot of,first of all,there's a lot of peoplewho I think just all the stuffthat we're working througha little bit here,
20:52it does seem like a lot of you,are too. So that validated me. I hope this validates you. But the other thing that came up a lotthat I was a little bit surprised by, and I think some of it has to do with the fact that a couple ofthe rep songs, gorgeous, have come up in the promo. There's a lot of people who are sort ofsplitting their expectations into this binary of, is it going to give reputation or is it going togive 1989.And particularly wondering how much of the reputation influence is going to feel sort of presenton the life of a showgirl.
21:30And I don't, it doesn't totally resonate with me that I think it's going to be like oneor the other or this is in some way going to feel like a partner album to one of thoseprior albums that Max Martin and Shelbach had a lot to do with.Right.But I do, I do, like this question of the.kind of the point of view of the album and whether or not it is this experience of pure joy,which I do really want to hear.I do also want to acknowledge that I get the sense just from the visuals and from some of the leaning into rep stuff,
22:14that there will be some, I don't know if it's darkness or if it's edge.But I think that's present to...Well, there's a song called canceled that's in all caps that, again, if there were betting markets for this kind of thing, you would imagine that's related to the person who's been, who ostensibly is the leader of the free world tweeting that he hates Taylor Swift.God, that would make me so happy.That's so sad.I mean...I'm just going to be honest.I would, like, that would, I would just, it would just really mean something to me.
22:52Has she ever not eventually clapped back?Usually, it has happened.You got it.John Mayer, you got it.Maddie, you got it.Kanye, you got it.It's a good point.It is a good point.
23:14It is a really good point.Gosh, that would...I think where I'm landing a vervinjust like being comfortablewith some of thesome of the conflicting feelingsand discomfort or whateveris just that like, it's a weird time,
23:31it's a scary time.That probably doesn't have all that muchto do with Taylor Swift ultimately.However, if what you just said is true,it's going to go a long way with me.Okay.That's just, that's my truth.Okay?
23:46Listen, if she comes for the wine moms,I would think that she comesfor the president of the United States.But we'll...Too equally powerful.is in our world.We'll see.I think, yeah, this is going to be,
24:01what I hope is that the,you know, one of the interesting things about Twitteras a art formbefore it was summarily perverted and dismantled.Defenestrated.It is that constraints breed creativity.and Taylor has not put constraints on herself for a number of years.And I think the Max Martin songwriting process has some constraints to it, some bounds.
24:33I think 12 songs and not 40 forces you to be an editor, right?She hadn't had an editor for a while.And that coupled with an opportunity to, to,The idea that Taylor writes songs about breakups and sad girl stuffwas part of the reason that we started the podcast to get people over that misconception.But now here we are, and it's been a very public relationship.And again, this is a woman who's defined by way more than her relationship.So let's be clear about that.
25:12But it has been the overarching theme of her public persona for the last two years, right?And it's just a writing.from a different place where she,you know, candidly, Taylor Swift is not the underdog anymore.And in some capacity, even at the peak of her stardom,post-Joe Alwyn breakup, Taylor was still the underdogbecause everybody wanted the best for her.We were all invested in the words that she wrote
25:39about the perpetual heartbreak for the songs that were about that.And you're cheering for, you know, your heroesand for the people that you have,the hopefully mostly healthy parasocial relationship with.But I think it's going to be, it is a different place that she's going to be releasing this albumfrom, and that I hope, coupled with the constraints of the creative process, is going togive us something new.And that's why, that's sort of my reaction to the, is it going to be more 1989 or reputation?
26:10I think they're setting out to keep planting a flag in what's next in pop music.It's what she's always done.And perspective and constraints may breed that for her.Okay, let's go through a few of the things that are going to happen in conjunction with the album or in the lead-up to the album before we next get a chance to talk to each other.Starting with the theatrical event, which is that the fate of Ophelia music video is going to be in theaters, the weekend of the release.so October 3rd through 5th.And I want to see if you've got to see.I don't know.
26:52I was going to ask you the same question.I was thinking about it.I don't know.I wonder if I could even get tickets anymore.I'm undecided.I think so it's the music video,but then it's also going to be a listening party for fans.And I think they're just going to play the lyric videos of the rest of the songs.
27:11Is this your understanding of what's happening?Yeah, but also it seems.seemed like a little bit of a behind the scenes commentary from her.Yes.On each song.Yes.So do you think, okay, interesting.I was thinking that it would be more fate of Ophelia music video.
27:29Then we're going to keep going through the album with the lyric videos.People who are in the theaters, the lyric video will be on the big screen.You get to listen to the album, you know, surrounded by other fans, other interested parties.you can wear your cardigan,you can listen on the nice movie theater sound systems.And then at the very end,that's when they would show the behind the scenes clips.I got to be honest,
27:58if they're going to go song behind the scenes,song behind the scenes,song behind the scenes,that wouldn't work for me.That would take me out of the flow of the album.But I don't think they're going to,I feel like it won't be like that.I don't know.
28:10I mean, I guess I'm not as compelled to go,do that. I understand whythey're creatingofficial listeningparties, basically, with somecontent, butI also think this has gotto be the start of a drip of stuff.
28:27We know that there werecameras everywhere for the secondhalf of the tour. We knowthat there was a lot of backstagecommentary and conversationswith opening artists, andthat when youjuxtapose that against the stated
28:43theme of this album, which is really, you know, the showiness and perfect and glamour of being on stageand then behind the scenes, you know, the toe separators and catching your breath and all thethings that even were in the video this week that she put out.Yeah.You expect that that documentary is going to, we're going to see it before Christmas.Let's put it that way.And do you think that that will also be a theatrical release?I don't know.
29:12she seems to be trying to help out the theater owners,probably building up goodwill for her own release.Yeah, I mean, great.And I think I actually,I don't know if I would go for my first,like I don't know that I would try to go to the premiere.No.Because I just want to list it.
29:31Like, I want to be in my headphones.That's what I do.I want to be in my, like, neurotic little space.But I do think the idea of a listening partythat's sort of sanctioned in that way,like going to the Arest Tour moviewas really fun.I think anything that like gets people out in the world together doing something that they
29:48feel connection with other people about, like that's the healthiest form of fandom.That's the most wonderful form of fandom.So I actually do think that sounds really fun.So maybe I'll go on like Saturday or or something like that.But I don't know.My first instinct was it's interesting to do this because there is this document.that like we are imagining exists and is such a perfect fit with the theme of this album,as you said, and feels like it should be coming sometime soon.
30:22But would she send people to the theaters twice in a really short span of time?Like I don't, I don't totally know.Why wouldn't she?But why not, I guess.Yeah.I still, I still feel.Just a feeling.This is not, this is not from any.
30:42information or this is just from the depths of my soul.I feel like there will be the equivalent of a 2 a.m. surprise.I don't know that it's going to be at 2 a.m.but there will be some sort of surprise in the canister that comes with this album.I do not think that it's going to be music because of everything that she's said about theconstraints that she put on on this album.And I think that's really important.And I think that she knows that.
31:08I do feel like the documentary is going tocome.I don't know if it'll be in theaters,but I just,I feel like it just makes too much senseto have,whether it's the doc itselfor whether it's an announcement that it's coming,
31:26that be the something extra.She just can't help herself.I think she can't help herself.I have felt this the,I've felt this way the whole time.Again, it is like just a feeling.But, and that's the thing that makes the most sense to have the extra project be.We did learn something this week that I am still struggling to get my head around, which is that
31:53can a song called The Fate of Ophelia be a hit single?That's a really good question.Like, shouldn't she have called it Fate or Ophelia?I mean, there is a song called Ophelia.I mean, there's plenty of, yeah.But whatever.I mean, she just is her poetry getting the best of her.That's actually, that's actually going to be fascinating.
32:21Can she make a song called The Fate of Ophelia be a giant hit?A giant hit smash banger.I mean, do you think that opalite is better?It's, it rolls off the tongue a little bit easier.I mean, but how many people do.know what that is.Nobody knows what any of this is.Except Travis.
32:46Opalate expert.He's gotten so into gemstones.Well, you didn't see it because you were at the game.Chris Collinsworth did everything he could last nightto say that Travis Kelsey was washed up without saying he's washed up.He's like, you know, when we talk to people,they use words like smart and prepared and team people.and team player and passion and, you know,
33:11but really he's just a number two tight end right now.Ouch.Whatever.Yeah, it was a little harsh for my, like, listen,he's got to assess the performance on field,but boy, are they ushering him off into retirementas quickly as they seem to, I don't know.Anyway, I digress.
33:34Travis knows about these things,but most people, I don't think,know them or understand them.It's a non-traditional song title to be.I do.I mean, the poetry,some of the,whether I think it's the target versions,
33:50a lot of the variants are coming with original poems,which, you know, she's done.But is the poetry,what was your phrasing?Like, is the poetry going to takeover this or something.I don't know, because maybe she can do both.But we're not, like, the quill pen is in the room with us.
34:14You know, like, it's not going anywhere.It seems like an unnecessary hurdle if what we're trying to do is bank a number one hit, you know, to have it also be, oh, yes, please put on the life of Ophelia.It's the fate of Ophelia.The fate of Ophelia.Please put on the fate of Ophelia.That song slaps.It is really funny.I wonder if it's conscious or not, because to me it's one of two things.
34:46It is, she's setting out to make bangers.And her brain, just at this point, is so consumed with poetry and this type of writing that it seems like the most natural thing in the world to her.or she's going, I can do both.I know that I can do both.I can make the fate of Opheliainto the biggest song in the world.And then we get to find out if that's true or not,which is cool.
35:17Okay, but just remember that they alsohad a song called me, exclamation point.Me he, he.I promise that you'll never find another like me.That they chose as a single.Other than Fortnite,and...Okay, so you're on,
35:41you're on,they picked the wrong single watch.That's where I am.You think you should have been would.Cancelled.Now, that would get people talking.It would, right?Oh, yeah.
36:03Anti-hero was a great choice.Anti-hero was a great choice.It's me.Fortnite was the right choice.So the last two have been good decisions.So I'm more inclined.I'm trying to think if there's anything else from tortured poets that I,because I'm a certified Fortnite.
36:31Hater.Ambivalenter.The black dog is not a single, but that's the best song.It's the best song, but it's not a single.Old hat.Could but down.Daddy, I love him that's been the lead single.Yeah.
36:58I do want to live in that world.I do want to live in that world.I can do it with a broken heart, or but Daddy, I love him with the two.Yeah.I can do it with a broken heart.Maybe it should have been their first single.I was grinning like I'm winning.I was hitting my marks.
37:22Because I can do it with a broken heart.What have canceled exclamation point?would have canceled exclamation pointis part two of Florida exclamation point.And in this world, what has been canceled?The state of Florida.Yeah, again, I'm on board.Like, put it in my veins, Taylor.
37:57I don't know.It's going to be what it is.But again, the single,there's just sometimes these unnecessary.unnecessary hurdles.But if this woman can make a songcalled the fate of Ophelia,a massive, like,
38:12cross-generational,cross-geographic,cross-gender hit,I am,you know, I remain in awe.Yeah, well, her ex-boyfriendis actively in Hamlet,which I think is just a coincidence,
38:28but it does seem interesting.do you think, and maybe this is a good way to talk a little bit about some of the stuff with her public profile.Do you think that she will show up at one of the theaters?I think that is the operative question around all of this.I mean, she's already canned the Graham Norton show, right? It's already in the bag.Yes. I thought by canned, you meant canceled.No. But no, no, no, no. It's pre-taped.But that's because she's not showing up in person at some of these. That's what this moment, the darkness of this moment.
39:02Well, and also unless she's worried.about Killian Murphy.Like, the Graham Norton show is not exactly a public.Yeah.I mean, my answer is yes, she will show upunannounced somewhere rando.Because the reason she's not shown upthese football games is there's 100,000 people
39:16who know exactly where she's going to beat an exact moment of time.It couldn't be less safe.Yeah.A predetermined place where she's going to bein a three-foot radius.So do you think that she's going to show upat the theatrical release in
39:32like Missoula, Montana?wouldn't that be fucking awesome?It would be really cool.She like rolls into Overland Park, Kansas, and is like, hey, what's, you know, I don't know.Well, no, but that's because that's predictable.It's got like, you know, go to, go to Indianapolis, go to go somewhere totally random.I mean, why not?There was that weird article that was like, Taylor Swift was preparing for the biggest promo campaign around an album ever.
39:59She's going to take over the world.And it's like, dude, we are two weeks out.we ain't heard shit from the girl.Yeah.Yeah.No, she's not.I mean, yeah, I'm sure there's going to be a lot around it.But the Graham Norton thing was a choice.
40:13Yeah, the Graham Norton thing is a choice.She hasn't done, you know, it'll be really her first real other than New Heights.And I suppose the time interview that she did, although I think that was a pretty different format,it'll be her first real interview since she did Graham Norton during Midnight's promo.So, like, it's been a few years.It definitely feels like a choice.I have to imagine she has some, like,she's making that choice because she has some things that she wants to say.
40:44Hmm.And therefore, that's appointment viewing for me.I also, like, I love her Graham Norton appearances.I always just think that it's, like, such a funny vibe.And he's so funny.Well, we get to see Taylor enjoying a cocktail or glass of wine often.We don't get to hear from Taylor while she's enjoying.a glass of wine, and that happens on the Graham Norton show.
41:05Well, and also just they always find a way to have a good mix of people.The one with John Cleese is, like, just one of the funniest pieces of recorded content I feel like I've ever seen.A few years down the road.But this is Olivia.How did it have the accident?What?What accident?Is that a proper cat?
41:32because it's just it's just it's a dream blunt rotation it's like people you would never expect to be in a roomI mean like what's she going to say to Greta Lee that's fun will they talk about the morning showdoes Taylor Swift watch the morning show like I'm I'm in on all of that so that's great but yes I dothink that it was pre-taped and it but it does feel like the most to me it feels like the mostsignificant piece of promo that she's done around this like I think that there isIt can't be all that she does, can it?That's sort of where I'm going.I don't...
42:06I mean, the video that she put out last week,she's not wearing this weekend,she's not wearing the ring.So like she's,she bagged some stuff before,like a little bit of a while ago.I mean, where are you onwhether or not you think that she'll do an S&L?
42:23Kimmel?Well,I mean, that would be cool.Like, take...She has some opportunities if she wants to do something.thing that would rubble feathers in the right way.Well, SNL came out this week and she's not doing the opener.That's for Bad Bunny and Doja Cat.
42:42Sabrina Carpenter is going to do double duty.It doesn't look like she's playing in the month of October.Yeah, she's not advertised as doing this month.And it does seem like if October comes and goes,I don't know why you wouldn't do it around the release of the album.I mean, they're doing a lot to,they're doing a lot through the existing fan channels, right?There are all of the things where if you buy the cardigan,
43:14it's advertised as being bundled with the CD,so that gets to count.We're not quite at the variance total of tortured poets,but like, you know, we're getting up there.But most of the countdowns are leading to things like that.And if you get outside of the feeling of like,oh, it's something, there's something new, there's something new, there's something new because ofall of that, there really has not been anything other than the announcement that she's going to do
43:43Graham Norton.And I don't know.I almost wonder if the reason that we heard about that is because they didn't, they couldn't, like,keep the leaks down.Keep the leaks down that it was going to happen?Like people were going to say that it was going to happen because she bagged it early, so they just needed to get it, you know?They needed some sort of formal announcement.Well, yeah.
44:09I mean, also, I do think I love Graham Norton, but I think that there are a lot of Taylor Swift fans who will, like, tune into that, who are not monitoring the Graham Norton show regularly.So I think there's some benefit to that being announced.It's going to be weird if all she does is Graham Nort.I got to believe there's some more stuff that's coming.and that the schedule has been rejiggered and reshuffled, perhaps,to account for this moment in which she's less comfortable being out in public.But I think we're going to see more of her.It would be weird to just do that show.
44:50Yeah, I don't...I think that's a totally logical place to be.I'm not sure we're going to see a ton of her.I'm just not...I just...And in some ways, like, of course I love seeing Taylor Swift,but like let the album stand on its own and see what happens.Well, she's done that before, right?
45:13And it just, yeah, that is largely what she's done beforeand let herself be the media,which is why it's such an interesting choice to do Graham Norton.Maybe she'll surprise us, who knows, maybe we'll get a call.Yeah, Taylor.Open invite.Anytime you want, girl.Does any of this change your thinking or update your thinking around the Super Bowl at all?
45:43I will add that page six reported this week that Adele is now like in the mix at least.I don't think Taylor Swift is going to play the Super Bowl.I don't either.I understand why she would do it.but I justI don't,I think Travis's situationand I think
46:07the general temperatureand hersudden reclusivenessseems to pointin a direction ofshe can do that sometimebut maybe not this year.Yeah.
46:20And I think that's,look,in some ways I would love to be wrongbecause I would love to seeTaylor Swift perform at any point.Yeah.At any point.I also would love to see Adele do
46:29Super Bowl half time.That would be really fun.Or Miley, whose name has been tossed around.Dual Lipa has had some speculation.That would be great.She just sold out a bunch of nights at Madison Square Garden.Everybody had a great time.Taylor Swift, I believe strongly will do the Super Bowl halftime show someday.
46:48I don't think it will be this year.I just don't.But again, would love to be wrong.Do you want to run kind of semi-rapid firethrough some of our listener questions.Is there anything else that you want to get off your chest?I feel like we're just like venting here.It actually feels really good.
47:08My chest is light.I'm excited for this album.I'm not nervous.I just have like real enthusiasm and excitement for this.And I'm going to be focused on the music and the music onlybecause the rest of it is going to be mostly fucking bots in social media sayingoverly hyperbally good or, you know, awful intended to.to undermine bad.
47:32Yeah.Bad things.And so I just like, I almost think that the best fan experience here is going to be to stayoff social media, put headphones on, or go to the listening parties with another group.But like.Yeah, and maybe me.It's a fascinating moment for this incredible moment.For this incredible artist.
47:54Okay.So here are the questions.And one, this first one is a very,on what I was talking about in terms of the sort of siloing expectations into rep or1989.But this one actually takes a little bit further.I don't think it's rep vault, but I also do.Help question mark.
48:20I love you guys.Does that mean that the album is or that or that she's going to release rep vault?This listener's theory is that after in the.master's letter, Taylor said rep TV is not happening, stop trying to make rep TV happen.That secretly actually what happened is that the reputation vault songs, which she did saythat she was obsessed with, have been repurposed into this album.I don't believe this, but I love where your head is.It's like basically my response to this.
48:58Yeah.Do you is what I say.I mean, you know, I think if we just approach the like mission of this album,I think the mission is 12 bangers, one of which breaks through and is her biggest hit ever.And if that's the case, then I don't think you put out music that is like,didn't make the cut for the original.Intended to distract the heat seeking missile.For the original album, which, though it is often my, my, my,
49:31stated favorite Taylor's Lived albumhad some crazy single choices.And she will not stray from the mission,whatever that mission is. And I thinkin this case it's going to be hyping upa song called the fate of Opheliawas their reputationI don't. No, this is new.
49:52And that's the point of it. This is like I can still make.I still have bangersin me. I am stillthe leader of the pop world.I can write them with my folklore,Evermore, Tortured Poets, Quill Pen.Yeah.I do think, I know that I've brought this up a lot,
50:13but I think that it is, yes, that's the mission,but I do think that the submission is,the secondary mission,is this place where she is with her lyrical writingis really interesting.and how that is going to intersect with that missionis something that I'm not seeing talked abouta ton in the lead-up to this,
50:41and that is very much what is on my mind.I know I've said it a lot,but I just feel like it hasn't entered the conversationand, you know, I'm doing my part.Well, she's, she's, it has entered the conversationthat the single's called The Fate of Ophelia,but she wrote this album in the middle of Brat Summerwhile watching those insane videos of 90,000 people singing hot to go in front of Chapel Rhone,
51:09in the midst of watching the next generation of pop girls take over the music landscape outside of her sort of monocultural tour moment.And so I, this is not a, she is a competitive human.She is driven by that.And I still think the focus is going to be on planting a flag of where we're going in pop music.I think she's trying, she wants this to be current.This is why I'm so bad at like rapid fire running through questions is because you say something and then I want to talk about it.And I do like, that's also a really interesting kind of bar to clear or not clearer just to hold this.album once we have it in hindsight up against is because like there was a time there was such a
52:04period of time for years and years and years up until i would say like a couple years ago and that'snot to say that you know taylor swift is still really seriously impacting the next generation of popstars and everybody who's coming up now grew up with her and has observed her and learned from herand I don't know how you could be in that positionand not have taken thingsfrom the life and times and career of Taylor Swift.But it does feel like,you know, with what Sabrina's doing,
52:35with what Chapel's doing,it does feel like we've moved out a little bitof the periodwhen everybody up and comingwas doing a little bit of a Taylor Swift impression.Like she has not,I don't think that,culture has moved on from her, obviously.
52:57She's bigger than she's ever been.But I don't think that she is the...I don't think that she's directly influencing in quite the same way that she did a fewyears ago.And I don't think that that's necessarily because of what she's doing.I think it's just sort of the passage of time and more and more iterations andgenerations of artists coming up and people can take things from her.in terms of the business choices and acumen and things that are extra musical.
53:32But it would be really interesting if this album, if a year after this album comes out,we feel like we, you know, we're talking about some other record and going,oh, it really like seems like this one and this one took a lot from the life of a showgirl.Like that, that will be something to watch.Okay.I have said that I am making my determination on the listening party.But Nathan, what is your plan for your first listen?How will you be listening your first time through?
54:04I'm going to be sitting in a chair in my house with headphones on, staring at the wall, listening to it.Will you have the lights on?Or will you be in like a cave?That's a good question.Sometimes I feel like I have the lights off and it's like really strange.Yeah, I listened in my house in the Palisades last time, so I won't be doing that this time, obviously.I listened on a rooftop in Nashville to midnight.That's a good question.
54:39Okay, good vibes.I'm going to be where I am.Yeah.I mean, I just, but it is a very solitary experience for me.And I'll listen all the way through.Sometimes I make notes.but it's mostly just like, how does this make me feel?Yeah.
54:59Okay, this one is for me, or at least I'm going to take it.Although, please chime in, Nathan.Will you review the new Jade album?Where's this coming from?Actually, a lot of people in my DMs about Jade,which also, that album is called That's Showbiz Baby,which is kind of funny.A lot of people writing about show business.
55:22Yeah.At some point I would love to talk about this album.I think it is super fun.It's like pretty weird.And that's great.It's very British.I see all your DMs about Jade.I'm into Jade.
55:35I'm into this album.I do think that Angel of My Dreams is still the best,the best piece of it.And that obviously we've had that for a while.But I just want to acknowledge that because this is something,the Olivia Dean record, too.Like there are a couple things that maybe we'll have to find some time to go back to and get a chance.Where does this come from?
56:06Instagram.Okay.Are you not getting DMs about it?I'm getting DMs about Jade.I'm getting DMs about the Haley Williams album.I'm getting a few.Yeah.Yeah.
56:20I cherry picked this question out of the Instagram responses because I wanted to address why we're not talking about why we're,why we haven't done an episode on Jade's album,even though I did pick her in my 20-25 artists I was excited for.Did I tell you I ran into Audrey Hobert in Brooklyn last week?Yes, you did. You did.Shout out Audrey.That's amazing.She was very nice. She was very complimentary.
56:46That's wonderful.That album has continued to get a huge amount of play in my household.She said she might like to come on.And I told her she was welcome.She's welcome anytime.But this is just me acknowledging that we have some other stuff that the schedule and the tailor of it all has made challenging.But it's, yeah, it's sort of blocked out the sun a little bit.There's great new music out there, though.
57:14Okay.Here's another question.Will each song somehow reference the corresponding era, Ophelia as debut, et cetera?Because there are 12.I had not considered this as a possibilityand this is kind of the thing with the rep questionwhere I'm like, no, but I love where your heads at.Yeah.
57:35Let's just in order recite successive conspiracy theoriesabout this album that are almost certainly not truebut because she's giving us nothing to go on,we're filling the void with stuff like this.Yeah, but I just again, like, you know,no bad ideas in her brainstorm.No.safe space.
57:57Yes, and?Probably not.Yeah, exactly.Yes, and.That would be really great.Wait, what would that make would?Evermore?Kind of fits.
58:11Kind of fits.Okay.Something to think about, perhaps.This was not a question.This was a statement.And I actually think that we sort of talked about this.But again, I did just, like,there was a certain amount of this,
58:24and I want everybody to feel seen and acknowledged and hurtand also like it's okayand it doesn't make you any less of a fan.I think it's going to make a lot of people feel ick,including me and I'm a diehard.We see you, we hear you.I say give it a chancebecause I think the music's going to be great
58:40and, you know, stay safe out there online.Just log off when you listen to some.Just log off.Have a peaceful experience.And actually,if you love it and that gives you the peace of mind that you know that you truly love it,that's being a good and thoughtful consumer of art.And if it goes the other way, it's the same.
59:08Like, it's good to have taste.It's good to have your own taste and your own preferences.And sometimes the internet makes that difficult.So log off, you know, do the Nathan, cocoon yourself on like a rooftop or in a room.just have an experience all to yourself or or with friends or something. But just like, don't,don't let the group think and the group speak overwhelm that possibility. Do the titles of the songsmake you nervous sound more TTPD than 1989? Again, I think this is what we've talked about.Like, I believe that she is not, there are certain methods of creation that are at play here that are like
59:52a reversion to things that she's done in the past. I,do not think that will hold for the lyrical writing.I think the lyrical writing is going to,like maybe it's building on it,maybe it's taking it forward in some way,but it is coming from the same continuumthat we have been on through folklore Evermore, Midnights,and then especially in 1989.
01:00:16Let me tell you something.Please.There's a song on this album called Father Figure.Indeed.And there have been lots of rumors aboutwhat this is in reference to, but there's a song on George Michael's album Faith called Father Figure.Indeed.And George Michael's album Faith, first of all, Father Figure is the second song on that album.
01:00:38But George Michael's album Faith is one of the best albums that's ever been made.It's incredible.Indeed.And so if there is any connection between track four Father Figure on the life of a showgirl,and track two father figure on faith,I am going to lose my fucking shitin the best way.If she has actually done some hearkening back,
01:01:05it can't just be a coincidence.Like if she's sampled father figure?Yeah.And this is more meaningful to youthan Heim sampling freedom.Yes.No.Because she's Taylor Swift?
01:01:29Because she's Taylor Swift?like explainedyeah okay okay okayyeah and also becauseI mean freedom is the better songFreedom 90 is just a like an all timebut it wasn't on the album Faithso this to me
01:01:47yeahI mean because Lord alsoI mean because Lord also had the sort ofinterpolation of Freedom 90on solar powerthink three times when you feel it kicking in thatYeah.But this feels like a different thing to you.
01:02:09I mean, Faith like was 51 consecutive weeks inside the Billboard 200 top 10.12 weeks at number one.This was like back at a time in which an album could be a monocultural moment.So do you think that that's a little bit of an Easter egg, so to speak, of the aims?like that's that's her saying this is what i want this is what i'm going for oh i love that i totallylove that see this is why you're this is why this is why this is why you're the best nathan i'djust been like george michael straight bops let's go but that's sure but faith is one of thebest selling albums of all time hmm cool i'm into it this is another thing that just really made
01:03:04me laugh. Again, like, some of these questions are so funny. The way that you guys write is so funny.It just really, it really put a skip in my step today. Do you think she's going to paternity testthe tracks for us? And then in a helpful parenthetical, say that it's Travis. Well, that's why I thinkit might be interesting to go to the listening party, just to squeeze out all of the context thatthere possibly can be.But it's also why, like, the Graham Norton thing,I just don't believe that that's the only place she's going to sit down and talk about this album.I mean, here's the other part.
01:03:45Like, hasn't she sort of already done that?I'm not saying that I think every song in this album is going to be about Travis.But I do think that the love songs are.Like, we know where, you know, if we take her at even,even like rough face value about when this was written,when this was like if we're not pretending that this was the rep vault somehow,then it kind of has to be, right?Yeah.
01:04:21I mean, and again, like, is this album about Travis?No, it's not.This album is about Taylor Swift,but it's about coming from a place emotionally of being,with a human exclamation pointand a relationshipthat's ultimately going to leadto her engagement.
01:04:37And it's Travis's opportunityto like be amuse,you know?Let's hear it.I'm excited for it.But it doesn't have to all be about Travis,but it's going to be comingfrom a place of...
01:04:54No, but come on.Let's get a great Travis love song.Let's do it.Yeah, so high schoolcan't be the best she's got.No, we got it.I like so high school, but you're marrying this man.We got to do better than you know how to ball.
01:05:09I know Aristotle.I know she's got it in her.I do too.We're going to get it.And we're going to get it.That's going to be great.Okay.The last question that I wrote down was any real documentary.
01:05:29And actually we did have, we did get to touch on that a little bit already.There's a real documentary.It's just a question of when.The footage exists.So I think that's kind of our preview.This is really, I feel, I really do feel lighter than I did when I started this conversation,which is funny because I'm pretty sure that that's what we said when we previewedtortured poets.
01:05:53But it was kind of the inverse of some of the, like, are people going to like it?Is the music going to be good?And now it's all the sort of weight of the world.And it's a heavy time.I'm excited for an album fueled by joy.Yeah.That's what this is.And I just, I trust her.
01:06:18I trust her now.The only thing I don't trustis the fate of Ophelia as a song title.Then everybody's going to be like,holy shit, have you heard?Put it on.Everything else I trust.What are people going to, what is everybody going to start calling that?
01:06:39Because the new Taylor song.T-F-F-O-O-O-O-O-T-F-O-O-O-T-F-Foo.To-Foo.It's just, we'll call it Ophelia for short.I don't, you know.I'm going to call it to foo.Taylor, I trust you.Let's go.
01:06:57I can't wait.I can't wait to talk to you about this for three hours.I know.It's going to be great.And that will be the next time that we get together.on microphones and I'm really looking forward to it. This has been every single album. As always,I'm Nora Pinciotti. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to Kaya McMullen for producing this episode.And we will talk to you next week with a new Taylor Swift album.
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