Every Single Album - Album Swap: 'The Spirit Room' by Michelle Branch vs. 'So' by Peter Gabriel

Episode Date: March 27, 2026

It's time for some listening homework. Nora and Nathan each gave each other an album that has been meaningful to them in developing their musical taste. First up, Michelle Branch's 2001 album 'The Spirit Room,' an alt-rock album important to Zillenial women everywhere (1:00). Next, Peter Gabriel's 1986 album 'So', an album that soundtracked the '80s (38:42).Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan HubbardProducer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Prenciatti and as always, I am joined by my friend Nathan Hubbard, who's currently wearing a t-shirt that says surf naked, which I hadn't noticed until you just started stretching. Don't tell people. We're the last holdout of no video podcast. It means I can be in sweatpants and a surf naked Aviator Nation shirt while we chat about. What are we chatting about today, Nora?

Nathan, we've given each other. gifts. Is that not true? It is true. So we're trying a little experiment here. This is something that we're hopeful, will be fun, and is something that we can continue to do every once in a while in the future. And that is an album swap. We have each gifted the other, an album that means something to us and that we were excited about the prospect of sharing, conversing about perhaps deconstructing a little bit together. And we're just going to talk about those two albums. I'm so, so curious to hear your thoughts on what I gave you.

I have a lot of thoughts to share with you on the album that you gave me. One thing that we have not discussed is who goes first. Yeah, I know. And I think it's like really, there's a lot of, this isn't a competition, but like there's, there's almost some game theory to this choice to me. Well, one thing. to talk about is that when we were going back and forth about what albums we were going to give each other, there was no question from you. You were definitive and clear and decisive. And then you tried to make me choose for you,

which defeated the entire purpose of the exercise. I gave you like five different albums and I was like, what do you think would be better, including my shitty band? I'm not doing this. This is your job. My shitty band, all sorts of things. But we settled on it. And I feel great about what I gave you. But I mean, I don't know. How do we decide who goes first? I want you to go first.

I kind of want me to go first, too. So why don't I go first? Yes. I think this is maybe, again, like this is not a compliment. But I think your album has some, some themes that reach pretty far and are going to spark some discussions that I think might like, it would be a lot to come,

it would be a lot to transition out of. So I think we start with me. I'm surprised you don't know what I'm trying. We'll get there. We'll get there. We'll get there. Anyway, I, very definitively, I knew exactly what I wanted to do.

I gave you an album that I have many times joked to you that my entire purpose in this podcast has become sort of like steering the ship in ways where I could force you to talk about Michelle Branch with me and therefore it has been a threat for five years the opportunity was finally upon me and so I gave you the spirit room by Michelle Branch an album that is near and dear to my heart, an album that really represents my childhood,

an album that I think has a lot in common with some of the conversations that we've had in the last year or so, especially around Miley, around the idea of the kind of early mid-2000s Disney and Disney adjacent pop music targeted towards young women. also, I would say holds up especially well and is still very much a part of my life today. An album that if you had played for me without telling me what it was, I would have asked you if this was Vanessa Carlton. Okay. I mean, but no shade in that, right? Right. Well, that's, I, how do you distinguish between, well, I'll ask it later. How do you distinguish between Michelle Branch and Vanessa Carlton? Okay. First of all, I do believe that

Michelle Branch is no shade to Vanessa Garlton, the superior artist. I think this was a bit of an issue at the time. Not only did they both kind of come out of this, you know, post-Britney Spears like quasi-singer songwritery wave of pop, they both really crucially had brown hair. Yeah, they didn't look dissimilar. I do believe that if you read interviews from the time, both of them frequently maybe complain,

simply make note of the fact that people keep confusing them on red carpets. Yeah. If you Google them, like the first thing that comes up is, are Vanessa Carlton and Michelle Branch the same person? That's the first thing. Like, were they cloned? And it was just sort of like, let's take two bites from the Apple here? But look, I know that Vanessa Carlton did that 1,000 Miles song.

But this album has three, like, certified 20 years later, you recognize them songs. Yes, yes. Well, so first, can you tell me, like, I give you this album. I've been threatening it for years. What is your level of fluency right out of the gate? Like, to what extent am I telling you to go back and revisit something that is already in your mind? And how much of this are you just, are you experiencing relatively fresh? I think that I was fairly fluent in a lot of the female singer-songwriters that influenced Michelle Branch.

Like the Lilith Fair stuff for me, like I almost gave you Indians, nomads, and saints by the Indigo girls. Okay. Which would have been a weird thing for me to give you. But I, there's a lot to talk about with an album like that. the sort of impact that I think it had on artists like Michelle Branch, who I think, at least she said that this album had an influence on Taylor Swift. Correct. So I think there are through lines between all of these things.

But I have to say at the time, I logged the songs as things that were played on the radio that I noticed. And, like, I wouldn't change the channel on. Yeah. But not, you know, from an artist's perspective, I was probably deeper in like lore around, not I wasn't probably, I was, deeper in lore around somebody like Britney Spears.

Yeah. Or the Timberlake solo career than I was like getting into Michelle Branch. So it was just sort of a thing that kind of wafted by on the radio for me. But revisiting the album, that's why I said, like, first of all, Revisiting the album, I was like, whoa, there are three like certified.

Yeah, I know that song. Yeah. And then I played it for a few people, including, like, women between the age of 30 and 45. And they were like, first of all, not all, they were like Michelle Branch. Wait, what? Who? And I played these songs. And they were singing like second verses.

They knew them so well. But they didn't know that it was. Michelle Branch, but they knew melodies, verse words, obviously choruses. Like, there's something about this album that embedded itself in the psyche of people without her, at least in some people's minds, it sounds like, I mean, I'm interested to hear how you feel about her, without her being, like, at the level of a Britney or a Taylor or, like, by the way, I met somebody in Nashville this week, who is a number one Lana Del Rey stand. I didn't realize that there are people who, like, would tattoo Lana stuff on their forearms. I mean, I fully. But my question is, like, I'm not sure

that, yeah, I mean, I knew there was a crew of those people. I didn't know how big it was, but that's the joke that I make with you about Duo sometimes is that I don't know that anybody's going to tattoo, like, Duo on their inner arm. Except for me. Would you tattoo Michelle Branch lyrics on your inner arm? Like, is this the last? level? Gosh. Like, if I had to get a tattoo of an, if I had to do that with an artist, this is a hard question for me to answer because I have a viscerally negative reaction to the idea of getting a tattoo, uh, in any way, shape, or form. Did you have a poster on your wall? Like, would you have had a bedroom poster or anything or? I would have had like, you know, I would have,

I would have decoupaged and collaged magazine cutouts. Thank you for landing on the appropriate, yeah, action. And if I had to get an artist tattoo, like, maybe Michelle Branch would be on the short list. I don't think, this is like, I am really fascinated by her and by her career because it is kind of like lost. Yes. And so, like, there are two things that I would, that pop into my head when I sort of asked myself, that question as to why did that happen? And one of them is simply that

this is technically her second album, but it's the one that goes big. And then she's a third solo album that doesn't do quite as well, but it's okay. And then she decides... To make a country duo or something? Yes, to go be part of the country duo, The Records, who have a song called Leave the Pieces

that I think is fabulous. But didn't, like, really get big. And so that was probably an unfortunately timed detour. But then she put out an album in like 2022 or something that just kind of came out of nowhere. But by that point, right, it's been a long time. And she was doing it. It's been a really long time. She was doing it with her ex-husband, who's Patrick Carney, who's in the Black Keys.

Oh, boy. Like, that was, that seemed like a strange thing. You know how I feel about, like, when the couple decides to do an album together. And, like, sometimes I'm just like, I don't keep it to yourselves. And so that was strange. The other piece, and, like, this is why I'm interested in you saying, you know, I know these songs, but I would have been more in the lore of, like, a Britney, is this is a period in, this is, like, a micro period in pop music that I think. think is really fascinating because right on the heels of the Brittany Christina, like very bubblegummy

pop moment, there is this kind of counterwave. And like this album, for instance, comes out before like Avrilavine's breakup, shortly before, but before. And there's this current of women who are, I think in any way that we would understand it today, they are pop stars. They work within a major label system. They are making radio-friendly music that is marketed towards young people and especially young women. But there's this idea that they are like the antithesis of the bubblegum pop stuff because they are writing and they're like down to earth and it's and it's sort of more authentic and there are more, you know, there's like, less electronic elements to it. There are more guitars. And I understand now sitting here that those two things were positioned as, like, you could be one or you could be the other. And they were in conflict and they were representing different, like completely different things. To me as a consumer at the time, but like also as a very young person who was not necessarily making those distinctions, like that was like pretty lost on me.

I was just sort of like, these are all good songs. Right. And I think that it beat, like, the forced choosing, the like, you're in this camp or this camp, I think now, like, in hindsight, I think it became a real trap, especially for a lot of the people in the quote-unquote, like, authentic singer-songwritery category. because, you know, Michelle Branch has a lot of writing credits on this album. She writes songs. I think she's talented at it.

But again, like, these are, this is an album that is made within a system that is relying on a lot of people to come together and make commercially appealing, like, big tent music. Well, Sean Shanks is producing it. Right. Bon Jovi's guitar player who worked with. with everybody, Kelly Clarkson and Ashley Simpson. We talked to Miley Cyrus about working with him on some of her early solo stuff. Cheryl Crowe and Stevie Nix and at one point Bonnie Raid and like on and on. So he was pretty imbet, Hillary Duff for crying out loud.

So he's pretty embedded in the female artist world of that moment. And I think that working with someone like that is like that's an example of something where it's maybe too dramatic to say that someone like Michelle Branch was being set up to fail. But I think it invited these kinds of purity tests that were very hard for someone working within that system to pass. Yeah, I can imagine. And one thing that surprised me when I went back to this is like, the reviews of this album were very negative. Not all of them, but like a lot of the kind of industry commentary was this is vapid and fake and stupid

and it's more vapid and fake and stupid for trying to seem like something other than Britney Spears going to Sweden and doing super cool stuff. Can you just unpack for me what the core difference is? I mean like to me there was like a pretty

massive sexualization of our pop stars in this period, both on the male and female side. Yeah. And it was kind of like, you know, if you don't want to be them or make out with them, they can't be a star. Michelle Branch seems to be a pretty young woman. Like what was the, what was it? Was it that she just wasn't like a dancer and wasn't like going to dress? And therefore she gets put in a bucket that's. different? Yes. I think

it, like, it is as stupid as that. It is like having brown hair instead of having blonde hair. It is subtleties and the types of clothes. And like, this is where I'm saying that I think some of this stuff, like, people's careers got a little bit short-changed

because very superficial decisions were made about this is the type of artist that you are. But then that puts her in this bucket of, you know, everything has to be really authentic and true and you need to be the only person who's contributing to it. And in this type of system, like, that's never going to be the case. And so then you go and make an album. A lot of people like it, but it gets subjected

to those types of purity tests. It inevitably fails them. And then it becomes an indictment of the artist as a whole. So I think that ended up being true for Averill-O-Vine in a lot of ways. But Averill sort of persevered and maybe it's because the songs themselves sort of had slightly more commercial success.

But like this album comes out in 2001. Yeah. And we are at the dawn of the age of the internet and music. And what that meant was to me anyway, was that artists themselves were having to become creators, not just in the audio space, but in the visual medium. Like, we're going to talk about Peter Gabriel and, you know, the video that he made that, oh boy, I just gave it away, didn't I?

That's okay. We're going to talk about Peter Gabriel in the video that he made that, like, you know, sort of broke him through into the mainstream because of its presence on MTV. But this was something that was different, which is that, like, you know, Britney Spears was being tracked by the paparazzi, and it almost felt like if you weren't injected into the internet Perez Hilton culture at the moment, like, you couldn't actually be a star star. And if you weren't native to that language, or at least using the language of being an artist in some capacity online, maybe you fell behind the eight ball a little bit. And that's, that's probably true.

of Michelle Branch. That's the vibe that I get from her. Yeah. Which is why maybe that's what she wanted. She had some anonymity and it sounds like she had a personal life. But I, it is, you know, Alanis obviously had this massive breakthrough album, but it,

even though she wasn't really able to follow it up fully, because who could follow up one of the biggest albums ever created by a solo female artist, like she still sort of persevered a bit in culture. She definitely has had to rebuild the brand over the last few years, and I think she's done it effectively. But that was my takeaway from this, was realizing how embedded the art itself was in the minds of people

who heard it at the time, but how the artist herself was not. And I wonder how she feels about that. Yeah, I do too. Michelle Branch, come on the pod. We're big fans. It really, it thrills me that you went and did that and that you had that firsthand experience of how embedded it is in people, because that's how I feel. Like, to me, these are, these are like lost texts, except they're not lost, and it's wonderful

to hear that reinforced. Well, there are three songs on this album that, like, are the big bangers. And so it's everywhere. It's all you wanted, and it's goodbye to you. And they were obviously the singles, and she did do videos, but those are, I mean, those are pretty timeless songs that, like, is, I mean, melodically, I think they're great. Can you talk to me about whether there's anything sort of lyrically that's in these? was this just like anthemic for you as a young woman, or I guess as a girl at the time?

Like how did these like resonate with you lyrically? Yeah, I mean, it's not, it is not a lyrics first album, certainly. That was my experience with it, but I wanted to know if there was something sort of safe enough about it or generic enough that you could just sort of, was it a shell that you could just pour yourself into and go, yeah, that's me, basically, because there's nothing super deep. And it's, I can find enough to relate to here that when I couple it with the singable melodies,

this feels like an anthem? Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's, it's, most songs are so easily generalized so that anybody can put themselves inside of them, right? And for the most part, there are some lyrical moments that I find a little strange upon. a closer dive in or a deeper dive in. But for the most part, it is like the thing that I think makes the timeless moments timeless starts with melodies. Okay.

Well, so a great example of that is the opening to all you wanted for me, which I don't understand what this song is about. I think I do by the end, but like it starts with I wanted to be like you. And that melody, like I know. Like I know that. It's there. But wait, what? Where you go when you're gone.

Like, I kind of get what that means. Is this a stalker? Like, a little bit angsty. Right? Like, and that's sort of enough. Okay. Yeah. I was like, wait.

I mean, the end of that song. Do you get, by the way, do you now, like if we're just doing. spoilers. Do you get why I didn't want to go from like Stanley Milgram to this? Yes. Do you now understand why I didn't want to do the transition in that direction? Thank you. Yes. Yes. And that's why I didn't want to either. I wasn't sure the extent to which you did the work on the on the album that we're going to talk about next. But but I hear some of her contemporaries in some of those songs. So on you get me, it sounds a lot like Ashley.

Simpson's pieces of me. Do you hear it? Well, I mean, an incredible song that will always have that moment of like where the backing tracks didn't work on S&L, the Ashley Simpson thing where she got stuck on the show. And like, oh, one of the most embarrassing television moments for a live artist ever. But an unstoppable song. Shout out to Jude Law. Yeah.

And by the way, John Shanks involved. So I hear that, I hear at the end of all you wanted, it feels like a lot of, of Joan Osborne, the One of Us song, which is like an all-timer, I think, and Joan Osborne ended up playing with the dead and doing all kinds of stuff. But that one had one of those breakthrough things that Joan and Michelle Branch feel like spirit animals. In a little bit of conversation. Yeah, for sure. All you wanted is the song that, so Taylor has talked about how this album and Michelle Branch were influential to her. And in particular, she covered all you. you wanted on the Speak Now tour.

And look, I don't think that there is another song in this album that can ultimately touch everywhere. But to me, if, like, you were to make an argument for one of them, it would be this one. Right. And I've always kind of wondered if, like, you know, maybe there's just something about the register of everywhere that doesn't work as well for Taylor or something. But, like, I've always wondered why this was her choice. Right.

And if this is actually her favor or something, I think that would be cool. Yeah. There's a little bit of better than revenge in everywhere, or the other way around, honestly. Yeah. Where it feels like a little bit cost-playing rock. Yes. But it's great. I mean, it's great.

I wrote in my notes when I just my first listen back through. I wrote, this is the best song that has. has ever been a song, this is the highest form of the guitar as an instrument. That's how I feel about everywhere by Michelle Branch. It never got better than that. It's never happened. I'm sorry to you and Peter Gabriel or whatever, but it never got better than this. Well, I think it's because Bon Jovi's guitar players playing the guitar on that song. Yeah, cool. That's a great idea.

Yeah, it is a good idea. Well, we can talk more about these songs, but I guess I want to sort of go outside of those core for a second. Yeah. Because there's some other stuff that again, like, I guess we'll talk about dropping the ocean last because it is last. But like you set me free feels like a Miley song to me. There's some melodies and there's like it could easily be.

From Hannah Montana, by the way. Not any Miley-Cath. This is first. Right. So it's very interesting to see, like, were they tapping into some of those vibes on Hannah Montana? I mean, I hear the Beatles and something to sleep to a little bit. Like, I think she listened to the back half of Abby Road when she wrote that. Here with me, like that little piano thing sounds like the Dre song.

you know. So there's like lots of stuff on here. Let's talk about dropping the ocean. I mean, this to me sounds like the Sophie B. Hawkins song. Damn, I wish I was your lover. Like heavy-duty Sophie B. Hawkins situation. And then this is the craziest song on the album. Yes.

Oh, absolutely. Three minutes in, suddenly there's, like an upside down beat that gets introduced, like out of nowhere, what the fuck are we doing? And then there's a xylophone outro. It's like they were like, they had these basic one four, five-ish type song structure chords songs for most of the album, to the point at which, you know, at some point I'm like, all right, you know, let's mix it up. And they're like, okay, how about the xylophone outro?

Don't mind if we do. No, that song, particularly because it's last, that feels. like the type of thing where they want to find out if someone from the record label is like actually listening to the submissions. And so they put it on last to see if they get a note on it. Right. Maybe no one, no one spoke up. No, because they only listen. If they listen the first two and a half minutes, they're just like, yeah, okay, cool. And they miss all of a sudden the like beat that turns the whole song around and then an a xylophone outro. That song is kind of insane. Is there other stuff on here that like, I mean, if only she knew, feels like they're like, let's mix it up.

let's get a little, let's get a little racy here. But it's not really. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's safe. I mean, none of it is, none of it really is. And like, like, something to sleep to is kind of like that too, where they're like almost trying to be a little bit edgy, but it just. I also, I will say that, like, she's his yellow brick road. There's something about Michelle, well, like the way that she sings that.

Right. What? What are we doing? What? That doesn't, it's one of those things where I'm, I'm like, that is not a reference that means anything to you. And I can absolutely tell. Like, somebody else decided that this would have worked for their song and you wound up singing it.

I quite like that song, actually. But, like, I find that line a little bit corny. You get me. It falls off a little in the middle. You Get Me is the song that sounds like pieces of me. Yes. Except with, like, wedding music at the beginning. Yeah, there's not a lot to that song.

Like, her laugh at the beginning is kind of fun. but like well so how do you feel about sweet misery sweet misery? Sweet misery is a bit strange I think her upper registry is very pretty and she gets to sing in it I think the little bit of producing

that happened there where there's like I don't think it's a vocoder but like whatever they're doing to the vocal in some spots just is jarring to me that's not a favorite for me. I would say that

here with me and sweet misery is the spot on the album where I start going okay. Yeah. And then it picks itself back up a little bit, but... Okay, that's what I was going to ask. Are there songs that are

like in your go back to Canon that are outside of everywhere all you wanted goodbye to you? I listen to something to sleep to despite the Yellow Brick Road line. I listen to that a reasonable amount.

Okay. Probably the only other one that's like really in rotation for me. All right. And so, but when you say that, it makes me less surprised that this album became about three songs that persevered more so than an album start to finish that was like a defining thing.

Like this album has maybe more hits than fear Yeah. But it's not fearless, right? But I will say that like, okay, everywhere you get me all you wanted, you set me free, something. Like, it takes until here with me, I would say, before I really think about like skipping. So I would say the first half is pretty like holds up as an album to me in a pretty real way. Can I tell you something that happened to me while I was listening to this?

Of course. So like I listened to this shit that we have to listen to at the gym a lot. And I put my phone down because I was going to some machine or something. And the phone was up. And I was listening to Michelle Branch, which I don't really recommend as workout music just for everybody, bad call. But like a guy came... A lot of this is like literally in my workout music, just so you know. Okay.

Well, I could see you running to it. I think like pushing on heavy things is not like, for me, sweet misery. Even to everywhere? Sweet misery. Well, but you think you're done like four minutes into the out. Like now I got it, now I got to get through. Okay. I'm just saying that it, I'm just saying that there are selections that I think belong on work out.

I got to get through. I'd rather be in love while I'm on like, you know, crunch number 600. So the thing is like I put it on like this this this is not I put it on like some little table thing and another guy came over and thought it was his phone. And so he picked it up and you know the Spotify thing was on there playing with a shell bridge. And the guy was like, is this yours? And I was like, no. No. And he put it back down.

And then I came over a little while later and grabbed it because I was too embarrassed to admit that just in case. You shouldn't be embarrassed. It's nothing to be embarrassed about. I was so embarrassed. Like, no, man, that's not mine. You should have been like absolutely. It's bad. Michelle, that's on me.

That's not on you. I know. I've been laughing about it in like weird. moments over the last couple days because I was like, why am I still in a place in my life? Like all the time, I have to like, yeah, I have to, I'm like the world's biggest male defender of Taylor Swift outside of a few people in her inner circle. And I get embarrassed about some guy seeing me listen to Michelle Branch at the gym. What am I doing?

God. I hope that guy listens to the pod. It's totally on me. It's totally on me. We got a DM. It's like, Nathan. You shouldn't be ashamed. I love Taylor's Lift.

I love Michelle Branch. Yeah. Do you even lift, bro? Do you even Michelle Branch, bro? Okay, tell me the truth. Was there anything on this that you found, like, truly insufferable? No. No.

Nothing that was... I think that's the right answer. Yeah, no, nothing that was insuffer. Like, there's nothing where I was like, oh, my God, what the fuck is this? Please stop. No, there was stuff where I was like, I'm bored now. I didn't need to hear these songs, but nothing where I was like,

this is making me angry because you're making, you're making artistic choices that are, yeah, that are just, yeah, to your point, insufferable. I didn't feel that way about this album. It was fine. I came in with a lot of trepidation. Let me be honest about that.

Like, I was like, oh, this is going to be a tough lift for me. Like, this is going to be a girl. This is going to be for girls. And yeah, like, just like, I'm not going to be able to sort of relate to this, right? Because I'm too old and too male and too dumb. But I enjoyed it. And it reminded me, I think your points at the beginning are the most interesting, which is how does an artist in 2001 have three legitimate hits

that 25 years later women can sing unprompted? endure, yeah. Like, not just the choruses, but the second verses and the pre-corrhuses, like, the words, and not have those women be like, oh, that's Michelle Branch. Yeah. It is a really funny, I think it is a really funny confluence of, I think, some of the particulars of the way that the Michelle Branch's, the Vanessa Carleton, of the world kind of got set up as being an antithesis to a different type of pop music,

got them into some trouble later on. I think that she was never particularly interesting from a tabloid perspective, and that was so interconnected with fame in that moment in that era. And then the detour into country and the fact that that didn't really take off, you know, it all, it's all a part of it. I guess it contributes a little bit to like why I feel like this album has so much lore to me and why it was fun to revisit.

So I appreciate that. Do you think that this was the guitar's highest form? No, I do not. I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry about that. We can disagree on that one. I think it's, that's on, again, to each their own on things,

things of that nature. Would you like to talk about Peter Gabriel? Yes, I would. Okay, let me say first. So you gave me Peter Gabriel's so. Yes, I did. And let me say first that when I went to listen to this album on Spotify, the first thing that comes up is like an anniversary edition that has four or five

different versions of all of these songs. And at first glance, I thought that you had given me a, no. I figured it out. At first blush, though, I thought that you had given me like a two and a half hour long album. Fucking Nathan. But besides me talking incessantly about this

in all of our conversations, what did you know or understand about Peter Gabriel coming in this? So I listen to a fair bit of Genesis. Okay. And I listen to almost know Peter Gabriel solo work. But did you listen to Genesis pre

or post Peter Gabriel's involvement in the band? I'm not even sure that I, like, that those are songs. I'm not even sure that I know the difference. Like, I'm not, because it's just like, it's music that I know, that I don't even really know how I know.

I know that it's on playlists. I know that it's sort of rattling around in my brain somewhere. I'm guessing that almost all of the Genesis that you know is post Peter Gabriel. Okay. And what's fascinating about a lot of this album

is, of course, that his song Sledgehammer went to number one, and it displaced Invisible Touch, which was Genesis's only number one song on the charts. And was that they had made after him? Was that big drama? Like, was there beef? Yeah, there was. There was. Like, the, Peter Gabriel just like he was making his way as a frontman and he had a health issue related to his daughter that he felt like the band wasn't supportive of.

And there just was this sort of increasing tension between him as frontman and rest of band. Like they wouldn't let him like play synths and stuff. And so it just got to that point. And boy, did he want to play some synths. Yeah. And then Genesis like auditioned like 400 lead singers and it was clear that Phil Collins. who was their drummer at the time was the guy to take over, and they went off and did that,

and then you had the Phil Collins solo career and, you know, in the air tonight and all that stuff. But you had listened to know Peter Gabriel. I've heard Sledgehammer. I've heard in your eyes. Okay. Like, I've heard, I think I've heard big time. Like, I've heard these songs,

but for whatever reason, they're not, like, in rotation for me. Okay. So this is an album that comes out in 1986. You're smiling at me. I'm just like, I know that you're so excited and I'm excited for you. But what I'm excited about is I'm excited to hear your reaction to this album. Because there's some things about this album that, like, in a lot of ways, from a sync perspective, it became one of the most influential albums

that came out of the 80s and into the 90s. Like, because Sledgehammer had this stop motion video that won all the awards and was played the most ever, it's a video that MTV's played more than any other ever, I think. Five of the songs were used in Miami Vice, the show. Yeah. Which was like, like, it was, at the perfect, coolest moments of what was the most perfect, coolest show that the 80s made.

Well, and so this was one of the questions that I really wanted to ask you, because I, like, I really, I will, these songs were not in my rotation. They will last for me. Like, I will, this is really, this is a really good album. I really enjoyed listening to it. And quite a bit of it, I think that I will go back to. for me to listen to this right now, it inevitably sounds so tied

to my brain's conception of like Miami Vice soundtrack. Yeah. Because it was. Right. It is inherently like a period piece, basically. And what I want to know is like in the moment did it sound modern? Like, did it sound like, oh, my God, this is the future, this is crazy? Yes, because, so Peter Gabriel's solo projects before he did this, I don't listen to at all.

Like, I listened to some things that came after so, but like, I had no, like, I was given this tape cassette on a ski trip with my uncle in Colorado. And I listened to it. I stayed up all night, just like listening front, turning the tape over, listening to the backside, turning the tape over. Like, I listened to this for like eight hours straight the first time that I heard it because I couldn't believe it. And this album was nominated for album of the year and it was defeated by Paul Simon's Graceland, which is an all-timer, but there is a commonality between those two albums,

which is that they both were white artists who had gone to Africa and incorporated lots of elements of world music into what they made. And the difference between Paul Simon's Graceland and so is that Paul Simon's Graceland is almost entirely acoustic driven from the instrumentation standpoint, although there, of course, is the opening of Diamonds on Solzer's shoes, is that iconic electric guitar part. Peter Gabriel has always been obsessed with technology, his whole life, and the synthesizer in particular. And so this, this, album had a lot of instrumentation that at the time was feeling fresh and new and technology infused, that he'd found a way to not have it be sort of, esoteric, like, out there kind of, you know, indie,

progressive, like, weird stuff, but had brought this stuff mainstream. And I think that is because, A, it was rooted in what I think are incredible songs that still persevere and, and still hold up. And players who are all-timers, like Tony Levin is like one of the gods of bass playing. He's got, you know, all kinds. Daniel Enwaw ended up going on and co-producing U-2's Joshua Tree

and Octung Baby, Joshua Tree, one album of the year. So like there is like just experts at their craft who made this thing. And yes, at the time it felt current. And the album came out in 1986. I mean, you talk about the Miami Vice stuff, have you seen the scene where John Cusack and say anything

is holding the boom box and in your eyes is playing? Yes. Because I think for anyone who had any sort of childhood teenage years around the early 90s, that is like the iconic

moment of romance. that was captured on film. Yes. And this song is the soundtrack for that. Yes. So, like, of course I've seen it, right? And of course it means something to me as having that iconic place in culture. I did not see it when it came out, right?

Like, these are things that I only have access to as kind of, like, in the rear view. And so it feels a generation away in terms of the meaning and the moment of it. It feels really tough. Like, the 80sness of it. Yeah. It, it categorizes it. It sort of puts itself in a box for me in a way that I think you probably, because like the things that are not like that are just the quality of the,

the musicianship that you're talking about, the song structures, the ability to do really interesting, varied things in these songs that are still like pop songs in the most complimentary form of that word, right? Like just how listenable it is, but also how textured and how interesting. Like that stuff, I feel like I can access all of it. I think there is probably something where like it is very hard for my brain to not go. And now I'm in a John Hughes movie.

And like that's that's sort of how I experience it. That is, that's the only, that's my only barrier. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I have no prism through which to like look at it that way. Because to me, it wasn't even that like, I mean, I was kind of young to be listening to this album, honestly. But like, it just, there's something about. It blew your mind. Yeah.

I mean, I think to run the gamut from Sledgehammer to In Your Eyes, and In Your Eyes was supposed to be the last song. It was always meant to be the last song on the album, which I think it is in digital form. Yes. But it, because of the bass, the way that it resonated, if you put it at the end of the album on vinyl, it would not play properly because the bass was of the mix,

would like vibrate in the wrong way. And so he had to put it at the start of the B side of the vinyl, but it was always intended to be at the back. And for me, like, there's so much on this album that I love that we can talk through and, like, weird guest appearance of Stuart Copeland, the drummer for the police is playing the hi-hat on Red Rain. And Kate Bush of Running Up That Hill fame sings on Don't Give Up. Don't Give Up.

Which, by the way, you know, she's the first in a line of female singer-songwriter. Sheenade O'Connor appears on. a Peter Gabriel song called Come Talk to Me. She actually went out on tour with Peter Gabriel and then went on to be Sheney O'Connor. Paula Cole took her spot and sang with him and then went on to sort of be Paula Cole. So he sort of has this track record. I mean, Kay Push was her own star at the time, but of sort of integrating really strong

female singer-songwriters into what he does. That's probably part of why I get, like, I had this experience where I felt so conscious listening to it of its particular era because it was era defining, right? Because so many people were influenced by this, so many people kind of came out of the family tree that you're listening to this like core text that has given, you know, has all of this offspring and therefore there's an imprint in my brain of what it means for music to sound like this. Right. And it's kind of like I think going back to that core text scrambles that a little bit.

Well, and I think there's a lyrical component to this album that is fascinating. Like each song is its own thing and he is very well read and there's lots of poets that he's cited and there's stories about the struggles of being under, Thatcher's economy in England. And there's all of these things that are, I mean, he's an intense fucking guy. There's no doubt about it, right? But to me, you get to the last song. What, you're laughing. Go.

It's just, it's the, it's, this is the picture parentheses excellent birds. Okay. What are, what? What is Peter Gabriel trying to warn me about? You know what? You can, you can shoot that one into the sun as far as I'm concerned, although, although it became like like yeah it is it is kind of cool that's that's true it is kind of cool i think you know i think he's worried about like the future of technology and society he hit a very sort of

david bowie you know view on how some of the stuff was going to be good and some of this was going to be bad but you get to the end of this album and i just think like there's all kinds of stuff that you may or may not connect to lyrically through the course of the album. Although I think, like, Sledgehammer is pretty great. Don't give up. Is it, like, you can, big time as clearly, like, you know, sort of mocking the sort of yuppy culture in the 80s. Like, you know, it would be, it would be the equivalent of, like, making fun of the

all-in podcast guys. That's effectively what it is. Like, you know, people who, but you get to in your eyes. I was a new I like big time Yeah, it's a good song But like you get to In Your Eyes And I just think

Of the whole album And I think there's stuff that You can still put on And it still holds up for me In all kinds of ways Like Red Rain I think is super cool I just think in your eyes To me I think it is like the most

I think it's the best love song Ever written about passion And like it just sort of like like captures the complete surrender to someone that like visceral and spiritual connection. It's like a warm summer night. It's like, you know, twisted bed sheets. It's like, you know, the intimacy of eye contact.

It's like that space in the moment before you kiss somebody for the first time, but you know it's going to happen. Like that is the intensity of this song written by a guy who is. intense in his own way and layered in with this vocal for me that just I think he's a top three male vocalist for me because of the way that he can sing in the upper register I just god I just believe it so much so that's the one for me that just in your eyes which I agree with you like that's a magical song it's not a like it's about the sagrada familia well I don't I think it's inspired by that okay

It's inspired by that. But I think it's about that moment of desperation. Being like overwhelmed by some things, sheer existence. And that's why Kusack holding the boombox outside of this young woman's house, just trying to get her attention. And it just being the soundtrack of that connection. It was just the most perfectly synced moment. You don't have to have seen the movie.

You've seen the picture, I'm sure, of him doing. it. And it just is a, yeah, I think it just, it, it's one of those songs, like, there's very few songs that, from the 80s that, like, didn't eventually make my ears hurt if I listen to them too many times. But I think it's like, it's in your eyes, it's every breath you take by the police, it's Michael Jackson's human nature. And there's not much of it. And there's not much of else. But those I think are like the structured, like most beautifully well-written songs that came. And this to me is one of them. Just if we're keeping track, it's a song about a building, a song about stalking, and Michael

Jackson. I love it. This is not a song about a building. This is a song about intimacy and passion. Maybe intimacy and passion with a building. I think it is technically about a building. I'm just, it's just Well, architecture. I think that, you know, I'm not a huge fan of the weekend. And I think that the fact that he wrote a song called In Your Eyes is a subtle bias that I have. Yeah, because it's like, get off.

Don't do this. You just got to leave it alone, man. It would be like, you know, whatever. Like, it would be like somebody writing, hit me baby one more time, but it's a totally different song. It's like, come on, man. So, okay. Or all too well. That makes sense to me.

I need to know what you thought when you got this cassette and you're staying up all night and you're listening to this album over and over again. What did you think about the Stanley Milgram song? We do what we're told? Yeah. parentheses, Milgrams 37. Yeah, this was one that I didn't totally get at the time. Now, it ended up being in one of the most important Miami Vice scenes. Like, if you see it, it's just like a very intense, like, meaningful moment.

So I sort of always view it through that prism. It didn't resonate with me melodically. It sounded scary to me as a kid. Did you know what it would, like, did you know? No idea. The reference? No idea. Okay.

No. But it sounded like, you know, militaristic or almost like large groups of people. I had forgotten that this was one of the Miami Vice ones. And in my notes, I had what movie is this? Like where, because it's cataloged there somewhere. Yeah. And I didn't have it, but it's like in there so deep where I was like, I know that this is, there's a pivotal scene.

There's a pivotal moment. Yeah. something. A ton of Miami Vice is about the structure of the drug world and corruption and the machine and the man and the things that you can't escape. And that's what this song feels like, right? Very Orwellian in its own way. Other than in your eyes, what do you think are the highest points? So for me, what are the highest points? Are there any low points? No. Laura? There are not a lot of them. I do like, again, I think this is the picture of parentheses, excellent birds.

Yeah. Is a strange song, though not necessarily a bad one. I will say that Mercy Street is incredibly long. Yeah. And it, the witchiness loses me a little bit at the end. Other than that, like, I had a, for a really complex album in a lot of ways, it's very easy to listen to. It's very fun to listen to. Yeah.

Mercy Street's 6 minutes and 22 seconds long. Like, it's long. I get it. I love Red Rain. Sledgehammer, to me, feels like just the commercialized thing that you have to eat. Although it's sort of in the right moments, it's awesome. I love don't give up. I mean, this man loves a pan flute.

100%. Loves a pan flute. And I love a pan flute. And I dig that voice again. Like the base on that voice again, the, um, Yeah, the chorus on that voice again for me is great. Great drums, too. Yep, exactly.

So they're just these moments all over this album. Mercy Street, I get it. And big time is fun. But like the, and then there's some weird shit. We do what we're told is weird. This is the picture is a little weird. But like you were going to always get that from this guy. Excellent birds.

Yeah, yeah. There's some David Byrne level shit. Yes, definitely. Happening there. Like, you just got to be like, okay, in order to get some of this stuff, I have to concede that he's, I have to let him be an artist. And he's going to be an artist on a few of these. Like, he clearly had some takes to get off. And I appreciate that in someone.

Another thing that I wanted to ask you about, although you did say that you didn't consume his earlier solo stuff. But I learned from the internet that prior to this album, Peter Gabriel, had released four other solo albums that were all called Peter Gabriel. Correct. Correct. And in fact... Any additional light you can shed on that choice? No. This is, you got to let Peter Gabriel be an artist. I want to Ulipe to do this. Well, what happened is that it got to a point where one of his labels released an album, they put a name on it, that he didn't know about, just to put it out. And then, and then when he refused to give an album a name, they dropped him. The record label dropped.

him because they just, they felt like it needed to have a different title for them to be able to market it, which is so silly in hindsight, because it had songs that mattered on it, including Biko, which is about one of the leaders of the resistance movement in South Africa and apartheid movement in South Africa, on and on and on. But they just sort of missed it. But from here, then he starts naming his album's short little things. The next album that follows So is an album called Us. It's kind of like Olivia Rodriguez adjacent, you know? It is.

Game recognizes game. Yeah, to me, like, he's got this song Salisbury Hill, which was the one of, it was off his first Peter Gabriel album, which I think transcends and you've probably heard. And then there's stuff after so that I think cuts through, but a lot of his stuff was experimental. And that's why this album itself, like, is so special. because he met the moment. It poses a real, like, sort of who's on first problem.

Yeah. Like, what's your favorite of Peter Gabriel album? Peter Gabriel. Oh, yeah, me too. No, not that Peter Gabriel. This Peter Gabriel. So Led Zeppelin had done it. Like Zeppelin, there was Zeppelin 1, 2, 3, and 4.

So they kind of had done that in the 70s. So there was at least precedent for this. But I think to have the music as sort of out there and experimental as some of his early solo stuff was, and not distinguish the albums, just drove the labels crazy, I think. Who do you think would win in a flute off, Peter Gabriel or Lizzo?

I think Lizzo would, because I don't think Peter's playing the flute. He's not playing the flute? No. I thought he played a little flute. I don't think he plays flute on this. I mean, there are lots of, he brought in all kinds of different musicians

to play on this, including Nile Rogers, including Yaso Indoor, who's a Senegalese singer who sings at the end of In Your Eyes. But the flute, I mean, I have to tell you, it may even be synthesized. Oh, wow.

Yeah, I think what you're hearing actually is a synth. I'm not sure anyone is actually credited with playing the flute on this album. Okay, he does play the flute, but not necessarily on this album. But Peter Gabriel was a floutist. In the beginning, he loves the sound, there's no doubt. And he, because of his time,

because of his time in Genesis where they wouldn't let him play the synths, he plays the shit out of the synths on this, on this album. Yeah, no, he was, he was going on. He plays a lot of piano on and on. But it's a, it is to me, this, this, this really, really is like an all-time album that has songs that endure, but it is so interesting to hear you listen to it and go, that is the 80s. I just, yeah, no, I immediately see myself sort of in one of those scenes, but not in a bad way

at all. It's just, it made me very conscious of the ways in which we experience things that we lived through in the moment, which doesn't, like, I don't think that you lived through Michelle Branch in the same way that I did, even though, like, obviously, you were, you were around in a way that I was not for this. But I, so in a way, like, I think this was a great pairing, because they were both really meaningful to us in key moments of childhood and life and innocence. It's really wonderful. You should listen to these albums. Okay.

You're saying that to, you're not telling me to listen to all the Peter Gabriel albums. You're telling our listeners to listen to both of these albums. I am wholeheartedly second the notion. Anything else?

Any final thoughts? No, but there are many other albums that I could have given you and that I will give you next time that we have an album swap. This is fun. I had a good time. We should do it again sometime.

I'm in. I guess, look, I think what works best is when they really come from the heart. But if there are any sort of album swap or things that anyone listening to this would really like to hear us talk about, I'm at least curious to hear. So let us know. This has been every single album. As always, I'm Nora Pinciotti. He's Nathan Hubbard.

Thank you to Kai and McMullen for producing this episode and to you for listening. We'll talk to you next week.