Every Single Album - Brat | Every Single Album: Charli XCX

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

Nora and Nathan kick off their "brat summer" by talking about Charli XCX's sixth studio album. They talk about how this album differs from her past, more mainstream pop albums (1:00), the inner monologue that is running through many of the songs on this record (31:49), and the narrow palette of sounds she pulled from for these songs (56:46). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. I'm Joanna Robinson and I've read every book in Georgia R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. And I'm Neil Miller and I have also read those very heavy books. Years ago, we hosted a Game of Thrones podcast called A Storm Spoilers, and we're thrilled to head back to Westrose to cover the second season of House of the Dragon on the Trial by Content feed. We'll be using our book knowledge to dive deep into each episode and answer your lingering questions. So send us a raven every week to Trial by Content at GM. mail.com. Follow and subscribe to trial by content on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast to

join us on Thursdays where these two will explain to me which Targaryen is right. And welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Prunciati and I am here as always with Nathan Hubbard who's having a very brat evening indeed to himself across the pond in Charlieland in London, England. Is that correct, Nathan? I'm scouting this thing on the ground. I am trolling through every cocaine club in London to explore the origins of Brat. And I am here to tell you, I actually have more anxiety about doing this podcast than almost any other one we've done. Because you and I have been on a role in that we have been reviewing some amazing albums. And I have been very positively disposed to a number of the things that we've covered in Pop Girl Spring, usually a harsh critic.

and we loved the Billy record. Look, we loved a lot of these records, really loved the Chaparone record. And you are the one who came to me and said, we have got to do Charlie X, X, X, X, X, this week. Because just as we did with Chaparone, there is a moment at the moment around this artist, who very unlike Chapel Rhone,

has been in our lives in some capacity, whether we've known it or not, for a long time now, And I think there is a chance, and I'm not sure it's debatable, that she has put out an absolute masterpiece in Brat. And I can't wait to talk to you about it. Well, and the chapel comp is a funny one because unlike Chapel Charlie X, X, X, has obviously been in our lives for a really, really long time, as you said. But similar to what we ended up talking about a lot on the Chapel episode plays in different ways, but is another artist who plays with sort of like insider outsider dynamics, both musically and. and attitudinally, sort of fan-basedly and all of these different things.

And it's very cool to have reached this point as, you know, Pop Girl Spring Begets, Brat Summer, whatever we're going to call it, where we've had so much time to talk about these, like, big heralded releases that everybody saw coming, right? Like, we had the Taylor. We had the Beyonce. There were those sort of like headline. There's promo. There's rollout.

There's everything. And this has been coming. right. Like Charlie's, you know, there have been singles and she's... The rollout's actually been cool as hell. Right. But it's been this sort of like underground rollout, which is now coming, like, bubbling up into a real moment. And again, there's a little bit more in terms of similarities to how something breaks with like a chapel. So it's just cool to get to talk about all these different artists and all these different albums that play with what it means to be... a pop girlie in really different ways.

And I think that's such a central idea to Charlie on this record. And to Charlie really throughout her whole career, I want to know because there are sort of, you know, there are many iterations of Charlie XX, and I want to know who Charlie XX is to you, Nathan Hubbard, before we kick things off. Yeah. And this is one where I feel like she's been in my life

in times that I didn't even know. She was in my life for I love it, and I didn't really know that. She was an opening act on the Taylor tour, and she was on the side stage playing an acoustic number with Taylor when I saw her, I think, in San Francisco on the rep tour. And I sort of thought, okay, maybe, but I'm not really paying a lot of attention. She was boom clap, and that I knew was a Charlie song, but it felt sort of fleeting. and in the aggregate, this is an artist who has been making a lot of music in a collaborative way as much she's been behind the scenes and she's been writing songs and she's been featuring

as much as she's put out hits of her own. And that's what makes me, listen, she's had excellent, excellent albums historically, but she more than almost anything has been a featured artist. And so I really have not been like tracking her career and thinking of her in the that I think ironically, and we'll talk about why it's so ironic, this album is moving her to become an it girl. She's always had a little bit of like it girl energy in the sense that she's always played, I think, with, again, like, is she an insider or is she an outsider, right? Because you're talking about a song like, I love it, which is like this huge, straight down the middle, absolute bang or smash hit song that she's featured on. She has a hand in writing.

she's been like a chart fixture at certain times. She's also written other huge pop songs. You know, she's written for Selena Gomez. She's written for Camilla Cabo. She's written for Sean Mendez. But then in her own music, she's kind of oscillated between maybe trying to do some of that herself. And even on her last record crash, I think she's talked about that. as her like main pop girly era and even sort of less flatteringly as like kind of like the

sellout era where she did a little bit more of that like straight down the middle dance pop stuff and it didn't quite hit the funny thing is that like for someone who's been able to make those really resonant mainstream pop smashes for other people it's never quite clicked when she's been doing I don't want to say never because I think like boom clap would be an example of that. But it's... Boom clap. Yeah.

Yeah. It's been less often that it has totally clicked when she's done that just for herself. Yeah. And I don't want to say

that this album is her accomplishing that because in some ways, like, this is a strange record in a lot of moments. It's experimental. It's,

you know, we'll talk about hyperpop a lot, probably, which is like the idea of sort of pushing the boundaries and the formats of traditional pop music to the extreme so that it's no longer something as digestible or mainstream as it starts out as being.

She's still engaging with a lot of that and doing a lot of that here. But it does feel like she has broken through in culture with this music and also just sort of like with the idea here and with the rollout of this album. And, you know, we'll talk about the 360 music video and tapping all the It Girls and all of that. So I'm really fascinated by Brat as statement of Charlie as both insider and outsider in the pop world, which I think is something that she's certainly always kind of navigated. But now it seems like she's able to kind of do both of those things at the same time, which is super cool. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a crazy vast.

to this record that is that is that it's insider versus outsider and I don't want to over sort of state what I think is going on in the art but like there is a sort of aggressive confidence cockiness at the veneer surface layer to the way these songs are constructed and in a number of cases to the lyrics that are in a number of the verses and choruses but it is a party album it is a cocaine-fueled, like, late-night skinny cigarette sort of hot mess on the surface of an album. It's for the club. It's in these sleeves. It's, you know, choose your moniker.

But that's sort of what, on first pass, you say that. But then there is so much in these lyrics that is actually about vulnerability and insecurity. and what it feels like to compete with women where you're a feminist but also competitive and unsure of yourself. And all of these things that actually, in a lot of cases, sort of explain the reason for that cocaineed-out behavior. Like, what are we escaping from?

It's a set of feelings that are actually real and vibrant and underneath the surface. and somehow on this album she's able to navigate both sides of those streets and I think that's what's like exceptional about this art is that if you just sort of squint your eyes

so the whole thing is blurry it looks like a sort of dance pop put it on and do exactly what she did to roll out this album getting a fucking green Tesla that just says brat on it with the weirdest green color that was intentional from her standpoint right because why do I have to my the weirdest but also a total

omnipresent color in fashion in like internet aesthetics right now. That's been overused. Yes. She gets in that thing and she literally drives from club to club, gets up on the bar in the club or up in the balcony and does these listening parties with fans. And there is that like, you know, bumpin at it like everything bumping that. Yeah, bumping that like all over the place. There is that vibe. But when you peel the onion on this album. It is absolutely her most like vulnerable and expression of insecurity and thinking about her career and her life choices. And that's what's like truly magical about this work. Which is again, I just think it's so clever. And I don't want to portray the lyrical content of

this album, which I do think represents something definitely evolutionary. But I think revolutionary in Charlie's discography is like that's that's not something this is not a place lyrically she's really ever gone before as someone who's spent time with a lot of different Sonic universes this is I don't care I love it right that's an entire song but but there's also something so cheeky about the pop music trope of making my most vulnerable record to date. And when you're Charlie X-E-X and you have such a history of playing with the idea

of not just making pop music, but like what it means to be a pop star, it just becomes so layered and so interesting and just makes this a really, really exciting album to talk about. Do you agree that she hasn't rolled it out or marketed it

as that vulnerable introspective thing? It's been marketed as here she is with George and Daniel in the club, and they've played now Club Classic three times over at the listening party, and each time he's playing it faster and faster and faster just to get people moving. Like, it doesn't feel like she's walking in the room being like, I'm bearing my soul. She's sort of playing the part in the same way that she is in the 360 video.

I mean, yes and no. Because, first of all, I don't think that she is saying, like, I think what's really engaging to me and truthful about some of the stuff that she writes in the more soul-bearing moments is that it's not, like, you don't get the sense that what she's trying to say is I'm lifting up the curtain

and telling you that, like, all of this has been a lie and I'm really hurting inside. It's both. No. It's everything at once. So I think, like, the fact that Charlie X, X, X has always been,

you know, like, she is cocky. That's her main posture has been, like, crotch grabber. And she's not letting that go because that's not, it's not a facade. It's just that she contains multiple sides. Yeah.

And doesn't trust Taylor. Because we're all complicated people and we all get jealous and we're all like vulnerable at all of these different ways. And it's like the inner monologue of the strong out cocaine club girl. But it's fascinating. Yeah. It's, no, it's really, really, really cool. There's this depth underneath the facade.

And to that end, I say to you, when did you first hear, like, did you hear the early, the early songs and the early singles that came off this? Because I didn't. I mean, I don't want to, I can pretend that I listened to Von Dutch. I missed it. I didn't really hear the single. I didn't really pay attention.

What I heard was my timeline blowing up about a month ago. with 360 and the video. And I think when you look right now at the streaming data, 360 is just behind Van Dutch, but from a sort of acceleration standpoint, I mean, Von Dutch is doing 650,000 streams a day, and 360 is doing 1.3 million. So in the matter of literally, by the 10th,

this podcast is out, I think 360 is going to be ahead of it. Yeah, 360. When you're in the memory, do you know, what you see? I believe 360 is now on the hot 100. I think it's the only one right now. Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think that's the biggest hit. To answer your earlier question, I think I heard Von Dutch on TikTok a little earlier, but I didn't, you know, I would, yeah, I think it was rolling around a little bit.

And I remember hearing it and not really paying attention. And I'm with you. I definitely, like, I clicked into Brat as soon as that music video came out. And as soon as it was all the It Girls. And I mean... Well, but so, I mean, for me, this video is the Freedom 90 video, but for, like, cocaine hit girls. But I need you to explain to me who a lot of these people are in this video. I just like I know some of them

but there's some stuff that I missed and I know like I have done my homework and research but like when you see this video there's Julia Fox I get it I'm so Julia There's Chloe getting out of the car smoking a cigarette And then there's a bunch of other

actresses and sort of Is Emma Chamberlain in this video? Yes Emma Chamberlain is there Do you know? Talk to me. Do you know Rachel Senate? Wait, we're not going to play the do you know because the answer is yes,

but not really. I mean, like, you're trying to get me to watch Bridgerton and Aquamarine. Like, clearly I have not seen a ton of shit that these were married. I don't know. You couldn't get me to watch Bridgetton or Aquamarine. No, this is different.

Watch bottoms. I swear to God, Nathan, watch bottoms. Rachel Senate, very funny, young actress, comedian, writer. She's in bottoms. I believe she's currently working on kind of like a girls reboot

situation. We're already rebooting girls? Yeah, girls is having a moment. Okay, I didn't know it needed a reboot. Oh, okay. Well, so I'm going to ask you this. I want you to keep going, but I'm going to ask you this individually

of each of these people who are in this video. Is she in this, is Rachel in this video ironically or unironically? Like, is she in on the joke? Yes. I don't think there's anybody in that music video that's not in on the joke. You think Julia Fox is 100% in on the joke? Yes. Totally. Okay. Julia Fox, like, Julia Fox understands the facade of it girldom. Julia Fox understands every joke about the jeuniseque qua and being known but unknowed, knowable and like all of those references, all of those girls get. I don't think that anyone thinks that they're making a serious statement and like that they're

in the video to be so cool. I mean, except, well. This is what I'm asking. See, this is what I'm asking. Who? The future Mrs. Maddie Healy is also in the video. I know. I honestly, like, and no shade.

I don't know enough about Gabriette Bechdel to tell you what I think about her awareness or lack thereof of like the in jokes that comprise the 360 music video. But I will say it seems like she and Charlie are good, are friends. Like she's name checked in the song. Well, it seemed like Charlie and Lord are friends too. It seemed like Charlie and Taylor are friends too. But this album has an undercurrent that maybe they aren't. So that's why I wondered. I don't know.

Does it seem like Charlie and. Okay, we will get there. And I think the idea that, like, some of these songs represent beef as opposed to just, like, complex relationships. Agree. Inner monologue and insecurity and complex relationships. You're exactly right. And that's part of the brilliance of it is it's not just about beef. It's about insecurity.

I'm just saying that it's been, like, it's been a while since Charlie and Taylor were, like, hanging out a bunch other than potentially backstage at a certain 1975 concert. Whereas, like, Lord posted about Brat and, you know, made her post about, like, an honor to be inspired and gagged by this woman. Yes, but that might have been to diffuse what she knew was coming. I mean, we don't know what conversation the two of them had, but they're... Well, sure. But, like, she went to the concert.

They are in each other's current orbit in a way that I don't think that, like, Charlie and Taylor are, which is fine. I just wonder if that's part of the art. Part of the art is we're in each other's orbit, we're close, but a lot of the lyrical part of girls so confusing, and here we are, is that there's a lot of similarities. They're supposed to be friends. There's also a natural competitive nature.

Charlie had spoken sort of at length about how she was honestly jealous when Royals came out and how all the comparisons, there's a funny video somewhere on the internet where Charlie gets actually mistaken, for Lord at a red carpet thing and Charlie just goes with it and starts answering like, yes, well, when I was in New Zealand,

she just goes with the bit for minutes on end. It's fantastic. But to your point, Lord... They do have kind of similar hair. Yeah, but it's, but it is, like,

the nuance is what matters, right? They can be close and they can be friendly, and there still can be in this artistic world where maybe they are competitors, maybe they are sort of peers, maybe they are fan bases compare them. There can be this inner monologue

and a little bit of insecurity and doubt in the head around am I rooting for this person? Is she rooting for me? Are we all good? Or is it not? Because what's a zero-sum game and how does this affect my career? All those things are like super natural things to have even in a, you know, what sounds like a sort of mild and tepid friendship, even if you're a feminist who supports women. Like that's sort of what's so interesting about this is, hey, I can be all those things, but it can also be okay to be a little bit like, who is this person? Is she on my mountain and do I want her as close to me as she is?

Final statement. Basically, I feel confident that... No, it's not. We got a long way to go on this. Okay. Basically, everyone in the music video is in on the joke. I won't speak for literally every participant, but broadly speaking, yes, I do think that everybody got the bit. Okay, so talk to me about this video. Is this thing as epic as I think it is? Like, are these really... Like, is this like the Freedom 90 video where every supermodel of that generation was in this thing. And it just was like, you know, as big as,

it's probably the Michael Jackson Thriller video and the Freedom 90 video is number two. Is this thing that sort of in the culture or are some of these women in this video just on the side enough that this is a little bit of an inside joke? I mean, I think it's, but it's both because it's, that's the point of being an it girl, is that there's a quality of an inside joke to it. And having everything be like, The point is it's not, you know, Merrill Streep and Taylor Swift and Rachel McAdams, right? It's the people where you can make the joke that Charlie, I don't know, I'm naming famous people that Charlie makes in the beginning where she's like, like, who's that? And then Rachel said it is like, that's literally Julia Fox.

Oh, Charlie, that's literally Julia Fox. Yeah, sorry. Hi. And like, right, right, right. My mom doesn't have a clue who Julia Fox is, but Julia Fox is really important to like, these are the most famous people in the world below 14th Street. And is Julia Fox famous if she doesn't date Kanye? To feel, like, yes, in the sense that like Julia Fox is, is the same type of it girl to the

people that that video is speaking to. Like, honestly, yeah, I think, I think she is. Okay. Okay. Because she had uncut gems. She's had enough that I think people sort of know her. And it's not about the normies. It's about being in the no.

So I don't know if that music video is like 10 years from now, if people are going to be talking about the 360 music video. I'm not sure that music videos in general sort of occupy that space. But it was a really effective, I think, tone setter in terms of what the aesthetic language of brat mostly was going to be. Because the singles and... It was the first song on the album, too, 360. Right.

Why do I keep saying 360? Crono. Well, because it... I really struggle with the fact that there's 360 and then there's 365. Well, she's done this to us before. Yes. Yeah, the album, Charles. starts with 1999 and finishes with 2099.

So she's done this sort of continuous loop thing to us before, which is cool. And they are definitely interconnected songs and on and on. But yeah, I'm not sure whether to say 360 or 365. But I'm calling it 360 from now on. The other thing is that like it girldom is a concept is so, is such a sort of 2000s core thing phenomenon. And there's so.

much engagement with the aesthetics of that era and like Y2K fashion revivals and all of that is like a very trending aesthetic language. So again, like she's so smart and she's so forward thinking. But I also think there's real. Charlie is. There's real craftsmanship in terms of like what and she totally comes by it honestly. Like that, these are spaces that she knows really well. And she always has been this kind of like your favorite it girls favorite artist. But it's also a very appealing set of principles of like the downtown clubby vibe. Like, you know, smoked out eyeliner is something that you're going to, if you scroll through TikTok, like you're seeing a lot of that stuff.

So it's simultaneously like very Charlie, but it's also very current, and she finds a way to make it something that just feels spot on. Okay. My participation in this podcast so far is bordering like dangerously on like dad line of inquisition. But can you just tell me right now in this moment, who is the biggest star in this video? and in five years, who will have been the biggest star in this video? Either Julia Fox or it's Chloe Seveny. It just, it sort of depends on what, what demographic you're speaking to. I mean, there's a world in which five years from now it's Rachel Senate, but like, it's, it's one of those two. Who is it definitely not?

It's, okay. We're not going to spend this podcast ragging on this woman who I know nothing about. Like, I'm just not doing it. Okay, okay, okay. Okay, all right, fine, fine, fine, fine. She is... It was the video that sold this song for me because the more I was like, holy crap.

Like, it's tight. The whole song is compact. The sounds are... It's not a particularly... And what's cool about this record is she works with a very simple tool set. Like, not a lot of differentiated sounds, but she gets this set of songs out of them

that do sound different and that do flow well together. And the more I listened to, I was just like, this is an incredible pop song. It's, I mean, 360 went straight to number one in every car that I was in over the weekend, right?

Like on my playlist, I was just like, oh, I want to hear this a lot. Yeah. And it does have that. And again, like, if we're talking about playing with the sort of the insider outsider dynamics, this has always been a Charlie Super.

power is she can make something so hooky and so sticky. And there's something very appropriate about her, you know, I think this is the song on Brat that accomplishes it the most. And doing that in this song that's about like, it is about kind of attitude and being like the coolest person in the room and and startup. And the bullshit behind it. But it's, well, and it's, but it's also like a.

niche type of stardom. It's about like a, if you know, you know, kind of cachet, rather than, you know, mega fame. And the video makes fun of it. Yeah, totally. The weird interjection of vaping and, like, the smoke pouring out of Chloe's car as she gets out of it. Like, there is just, and like the awkward, long serving of the looks at the end of the video with the noise in the background where, you know, it goes on for just probably, probably, four seconds too long.

Like we're in the beginning of the intro where they're like, I think it's Rachel said it who's like, okay, I see it. She's giving waiter. Love her. Totally waiter vibes. When they've anointed the server is the Newick girl who's joining the kingdom.

Like it's just very funny. She's also like vibrating all the time. You know, it's, it's, it's wacky, it's weird. It's, but it all feels right.

As you go through the whole record, like, is this your favorite? Do you think it's the best song in the album? Are there others that grabbed you? There are others that grabs me. I do think it's the best song. It's just a fucking banger.

And it feels like, it feels like a Charlie smash that feels true to her. And this is something that sometimes vexes me with Charlie a little bit is that like she is, she sometimes will kind of like disavow some of her previous work. or maybe that's like too strong of a way to say it. But, you know, she's somewhat tongue in cheek. But as I said, she's referred to Crash as her like sellout era. And she's talked about, you know, some of the songs, some of the real like chart toppers that she's been a part of as being things that she doesn't

really love to perform. Like she just thinks it's a little played out and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I get it. Like, I think she's very... I think she tends to speak very honestly and however she feels is however she feels. And that's great. As an appreciator over a lot of her music, I'm like, no, come on, Charlie, that stuff's great. And so this feels like I just have, I have really high hopes that she's never going to say anything like that about 360.

Because it just feels so her. And I think that's really special. Some other songs that really grabbed me. I mean, we're going to talk about sympathy as an eye. but that being the... Because that's a close one for me. The first song

that kind of clues you in it's the third track. And all of a sudden it's oh, she's going to talk about some stuff that we don't usually hear from Charlie XX and she's going to talk about feeling insecure

and feeling insecure specifically about how she stacks up to other peers of hers in music, and particularly, possibly one, who might have been dating a bandmate of her fiancé George from the 1975 at a point over the last year or so. And obviously there's a... Yes?

Will you not be so circumspect? Say it. It's a Taylor. Like, it's a trailer. has a verse about Taylor Swift that is very clearly about Taylor Swift and is also a sort of key into what was maybe or maybe not happening at the 1975 show that she showed up at. And it also speaks or raises questions about the timing of her. Like, whatever.

It's all Taylor personal life stuff. But the intrigue for me is this is like a pretty big artist who is verbalizing in a song, how big and intimidating Taylor Swift is for artists who have huge fucking hits. That, by the way, guess what's always been on that pre-show playlist of Taylor's is the, is, I love it, right? Like, Taylor is a good fan and his supporter. So it's a fascinating insight into the psychology of an artist who, you know, is intimidated by Taylor Swift. and by the way,

secretly wants her the fuck out the room. I mean, first of all, who's afraid of little old me you should be? Like, thank you. We know. How could you not be intimidated by Taylor Swift in this current iteration

of Taylor Swift? As nice as it seems like she very well may be. You said there's at least one verse of this song that you think is about Taylor Swift. Do you think this whole song is about Taylor? Do you think it's just like one part? I guess that's a fair point.

I think that it is inspired by that interaction and that it's mostly about Taylor Swift, yeah. That's also, yes. This one girl taps my insecurities. George says I'm just paranoid. Yes, I mean, exactly. I couldn't even be her if I tried. So I think it's about Taylor.

It just like there's a directness in the first verse that feels very clear. And I guess in the second verse, like don't want to see your backstage at my boyfriend's show, sure. why I want to buy a gun, why I want to shoot myself is a very, very interesting and she's obviously not serious. It feels like, you know, jumping off a very tall building sort of line if I can make the Taylor thing. But again, here's somebody who ostensibly is on top of the world, making tons of money, loved, and is intimidated and feels like in the shadow.

questions her self-worth in the presence of somebody else. And so there's a, hey, stars, they're just like us part of this that is, again, great contrast against what we just heard on 360, right? Right. Against, against, you know, what we just heard on club classics for fuck's sake. Well, but the thing that I love is, is I feel like there's kind of a text painting that happens where on the verses, you know, it's just kind of like. like, it's not really sparse because you have all of the electronic layers and all of the sort of distortion on the vocal. And there's a fairly like thick sonic palette.

But it's, it's that like kind of almost robotic sounding like weird futuristic Charlie mode. And then when she gets to the chorus and she says, you know, I couldn't even be her if I tried. She kind of goes into a belt and it's still, there's still like filtering on it. There's still a distortion to it. They're still sort of like playing with, you know, just sort of messing with the sound of her voice a little bit. But it becomes this kind of like whale that's a little bit more. Like to me, it feels a little bit more like something that someone like a Taylor Swift would do on stage, belting out a song about how they feel.

And it feels like she's playing with. the two roles and the idea of like, can she, you know, could she ever do it? Could she be there? And when she goes to that place of, of belting something out, they do still keep messing with what the vocal sounds like. So it's, it kind of like reinforces that I couldn't even be here if I tried. And I just, I think it's so cool. I do think, I mean, and I give her, I give her credit for as much as she's saying, like, I'm intimidated by Taylor Swift. Yeah. Don't want to see your backstage at my boyfriend's show. Fingers crossed behind my back.

I hope they break up quick. Credit for the honesty. Awesome. A lot of people wouldn't have the balls. It is the ball. I'm so glad that I was just going to be like, we just can't get off this song without talking about those lines. Because, yes, in this environment,

with Taylor Swift at her absolute peak, to have the balls to put that in a song where she's just like, I hope they break up. Which is not a diss. So did, it's not a dis. It's what 95% of the fan base was hoping for. And it's also... And it's also...

But for very different reasons. It's also not some... Like, that has, you know, other than sort of like what the idea of Taylor represents, right? Like, that's the type of thing where... Right. The way that you feel about someone has nothing to do with them. It's that if someone is a reflection of a lot of your own insecurities,

you don't want them fucking around. Like, you just don't want to see them. You don't want them. And he's like, go ahead. This to me is, this is what you as the sort of football writer in chief here, I imagine this is what like Kirk Cousins is feeling about Michael Panix, who the, forget that the Falcons drafted foolishly. But this is the alpha male, hey, this is supposed to be my job.

And there's somebody else here who maybe isn't a threat and I'm supposed to train. And yes, that person's. bigger than me, but like, you know, did Zach Wilson of the Jets get that upset when Aaron Rogers went down with an Achilles injury and he had his shot? Turns out he sucked. But like, whatever, there is that dynamic that is not, this is not even about sort of feminism or the relationship between women. What's interesting about it is, I think, I think what's interesting. And again, coming from a male perspective, I need your sense on this. But what's interesting about it is she is courageous enough to speak to it as a woman who supports other women and is a feminist,

but to say, hey, it's still okay for me to be a little wary of someone who, you know, I've got a little bit of competition with. And candidly, I don't want her backstage at my boyfriend's show. I hope they break up. It doesn't mean I want her dead or that I'm hard rooting against her. We'll talk about that in the Lord's song in a minute. But it is, this is not always been a safe space for women to speak their feelings, has it, in this way? I think we, I mean, she gets into this, I think even more on the song, Mean Girls, which comes toward the end of the record. This once we're all my main guy. And that's like a little bit more of a tongue and cheek song, but I think it's a pretty, like, somehow there's become this.

And I think this is particularly present in the way that people talk about pop stars for whatever set of reasons. But, like, there is this idea that being a good feminist means liking all women. Like, liking someone has close to nothing to do with it, right? Like, we're talking about a social movement instead of beliefs that has to do with, like, personal and economic safety and security. It really could not have less to do with whether or not Charlie XX thinks Taylor Swift is nice. like, which she's not even saying that she's not even saying that she doesn't. I just think that there's become this like, like sort of cult of niceness or whatever where it's like everybody has to like everybody.

And I think actually Charlie, maybe it was she did Los Culturistas and I think she was talking about this a little bit. Or even when she, when there started to be some discourse about the idea that like some of these tracks, this song and then Girl's So Confusing. You want to how you feel. Vise of E Lord or like, quote unquote, disc tracks. She said,

they're really just about how it's so complicated being an artist, especially a female artist, where you are pitted against your peers, but also expected to be best friends with every single person constantly. And if you're not,

you're like deemed a bad feminist. And that to me is just such an unrealistic expectation. I think that's so, like, to me that tracks is like fairly obvious, but I do think it's become a weird dynamic where you have to be so outwardly supportive of everyone else. Otherwise, somehow it calls into question

like your own personal politics or morals or something. And it's like, what world do we think that this is reflecting? Because it's so unrealistic. No one lives up to that in their own lives. Everybody has, you know, I'm not. saying that anybody should be like acting on those things obviously. But the idea that like being,

that the qualification for supporting other women is to never have someone make you feel bad or be like, ah, I just don't want her around is like so crazy. Yeah. But I think that's what she's responding to. That's right. And I think what's, um, what's so cool about this song is we came from 360 where she's like, you know, looking like an icon. I'm so Julia. Like there's, you know, bumping that. Like, there's so much confidence in that song. And then we're into club classics, which might as well be right side freds. I'm too sexy. I'm too sexy for my love. Too sexy for my love. Love's going to leave me. When I go to the club, I'm not.

And I'm going to hear there's club classics. Club classics. Like, I want to dance to me, right? After talking about Sophie and others who, and we'll talk about Sophie some more in a bit, there's just this confidence and this strutting that happens in the first two songs. And then you get into sympathy as a knife.

And, yeah, she's being very profound. There's no surface level, you know, pop nonsense. in this song. And that to me was the moment in which it sort of revealed what this album is actually about, I think. Yeah. Well, and even just the fact that it's, you know, the sort of the key word is sympathy, right? Like, it's actually the act of kindness. And maybe I think you can read this. You can read the title and the lyrics as like, is it sort of performative sympathy and sympathy that that is based in having, more power and being able to say like,

she's telling you both these things can exist at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive. And that the sort of societal dialogue has been either you're all the way in or you're all the way out. And she's like, hey, can I be a feminist and not like that girl? Well, or like not even necessarily not like her, right?

Like, because you can also read the song as you can take sympathy as just for what it is, right? Like, this is a story about Charlie running into, you know, Taylor backstage. or whoever. I mean, obviously it's Taylor, but like, sure, Taylor backstage and Taylor being really nice to her

and being like, yeah, I'm sorry you're going through that and like totally meaning it. And that's still fucking annoying her because if it taps into the things that you feel weird about in your own life, of course it's going to be a shitty experience. And you're just going to wind up being like, God, I wish she wasn't there that night.

Like, I just, I wish I had that space to myself. I wish I got to be the girl backstage at the 1975 show. and that there was, you know, only one person who was in that role. And I just think that's very real. Side gossipy note, I love the image of like George the drummer talking down his fiance, now fiance, I think girlfriend at the time, and just being like, no, no, no, it's okay. You know, just like trying to stand up for his mate and lead singer and it not really working

because she's like, I don't want her back here. He's like, I can't really kick Taylor fucking Swift out of the backstage. I just can't, I cannot handle this. Well, so sympathy is a knife is one that stands out for me for sure. Well, go ahead. I also, like, it's funny because I think something that we've talked about vis-a-vis Sabrina a couple times this spring has been the idea that like opening for someone on a Taylor level, you know, is a great opportunity. But it's not always the springboard that it has. was Ben for Sabrina because she's utilized it so effectively.

And I think Charlie's a good example of that, right? Because, like, I don't think it clicked for her. Like, I don't think it made sense for her really truly felt right for her to be opening. Now, maybe they switched back and forth. But I feel like when I saw the reputation tour, I think she performed before Camilla. Yeah. I think her set was first. So, like, she's performing to quarter-filled stadiums at, you know, probably like 5.30 in the afternoon.

It's hard work. It's maybe not particularly rewarding. Then you got to put on your sparkle dress and come back and do shake it off every night. Right. Shake it off is what she did. Right. Spin around with Camilla and Taylor, which is just like maybe not. what Charlie wants to be doing necessarily.

And I'm not saying, like, you know, she could have not done that, right? Like, it's a great opportunity. Maybe she loved doing that. I think she said some stuff that indicates that she didn't really love how that turned out, which is not anybody's fault. But there's a dynamic there. Of course. Like, because Taylor represents the insider pop girl that is always sort of a, like, that

Charlie is always sort of flirting with as an idea, but not, but sort of existing closer to and further away from it at different moments. So, well, cool song. I want to ping you because I do believe there are a few other songs on this album that come close to being best song. I think I'm with you that 360 is the best. But first, before we get there, I want to just go down one little rabbit hole for, I promise you not more than 30 seconds. Have you seen the Will Smith movie I Robo? I, I think so. I think like did I watch that on a plane once? It's not canon to me. It's not canon to me either. I'm like familiar with it as a concept. Okay. Question number two. It's no aquamarine. Have you seen Justin Timberlake's mugshot that just came out? Yes, I have. He looks like the robot in I robot.

Justin Timberlake arrested after stealing a drink from someone and getting a DUI and, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, at a restaurant that I once met up with Kevin Clark and his wife at, because we were both spending Thanksgiving on Long Island. Well, this is why we're talking about Pop Girl Summer, because somebody's got to step in. Somebody's got to step in for I-Robot, for DUI Robot. I don't know where that came from, but I'm glad, like, I'm glad to know where that ended up. Yeah, we got it out of the way. And we need to also get out of the way

a couple of the other songs that I think could potentially be best song on this record. So I want to know there's three for me that are candidates. Other than 360 and... And sympathy is a knife. And it is... And I'm worried this is going to be on your cut list,

which is why I'm saying it first. It's Apple. Oh, not on my list. I love Apple. Love Apple. Apple. I do think we might get Rick-rolled here. I think there are some parts of the song that sound a little bit like never going to give you up. Some of that influence, like it might be so like culturally in the flow that she's Rick-rolling us with Apple. But there's just something about that song that I absolutely adore. That's number one. That would be so because Charlie has often, I think, talked about like loving songs like like I think like Barbie girl

well for sure it was when she did the Barbie soundtrack Barbie soundtrack she talked about how important that song was to her and the stuff where again it's it's so it's so catchy it becomes like almost something where you can't tell if it's parody

so I feel like that could fall into that category okay what's the next one Rick Astley all the way the second one for me is So I which is the song about Sophie who is an incredibly important mentor to her, was an incredibly important mentor to her.

I adore this song. And there is something coming related to Sophie in very short order in the next week, and that's all I'm going to say about it. But I think this song and the sort of lore of Sophie is growing. And in this moment, it is going to, like,

what she does with, this song on this record, I think, is going to actually help in an very interesting way bring Sophie into the mainstream in a way that at the time of her death, she wasn't. She was underground in sort of waiting to be bigger in the same way that sort of Charlie has towed the line between underground and mainstream. And I just, I think this song is absolutely gorgeous. And in that hyperpop PC music, that scene where Charlie. 100% was working as well. That's a beautiful song. It's cool and how it sounds like some of this stuff off of like room room that Charlie did with Sophie. It's sort of self-referential in some ways in terms of the work that they did together. But it also lyrically, it has the It's Okay to Cry reference. It just, I think that's such a moving, a really moving tribute. Well, so I love it. And then the last one, which I think,

think you knew that I was going to say. And I'm not sure of you. I'm not sure of you like this or not. But I think about it all the time is a great fucking song. And it's not just because it's nestled in between all this like sheet cocaine pop stuff. I think because on a standalone basis, it's a absolutely beautiful and just incredible song. I absolutely love this song. And I do think that it's a contender for it's in my like it's in my top five. I'm not. Sappy ballad man. No. It's so, because this is like, this is much more, I think this is the type of, I don't want to say

the type of, because there are many types of emotional songs that I love. But there's a, there's a depth and an exploration of really impactful feelings, but there's also just like a frankness to it. Like with a line, like, and now they both know these things that I don't. She's a radiant mother and he's a peaceful father. And now they both know these things that I don't. Like, it's so simple, but it cuts in such a specific way of like wondering. Yeah.

And, you know, loathe as I am to bring it up, Nathan, Charlie X-X is 31 years old. So in a way, you could say that her Saturn has returned. Right. It's the theme of the spring for sure. And for those of us in this stage of life, the idea of a binary and wondering, you know, to what degree there is a binary between motherhood and a state without motherhood is really potent. And considering that in the context of a career especially is just a really potent idea. And this is such a, it's such a frank. look at how she feels about that.

Like even the scene that she writes into it where they're driving home and she's like, should I stop taking my birth control? Like what if, you know, my career feels so small? Because my career feels so small in the existential scheme of it all. That, I think, just to cut the legs out of the future part for me is the best lyric on the album.

It's just an incredible juxtaposition nestled in here and a view into an inner monologue, isn't it? Should I stop my birth control? Because my career feels so small in the existential scheme of it all. Yeah. No, I think it's really stunning. And also a beautiful sounding song, too.

It's musically, I think, really holds up to the lyrical writing, which is interesting because I think she wrote some of these songs a little bit differently. Like I've read her in interviews saying that historically she has written to track. and she did a little bit more in terms of the process behind Brat of writing the words and then coming up with the music. Yeah, and it's a little TTPD in that way. Like it does feel like she's overlaid these thoughts onto something and there's a rawness and honesty to it in particular,

no more than in this song that is just fantastic. And the thing that stands out for me, and I don't know about you, but here we are the second to last track of the album, and she's still using a lot of the same sounds, again, a very small and simple color palette for this record, but this song does not sound like anything else. And there's subtleties in the way that she does use a spoken word

and the way that she sort of wraps lines around the ends of the sort of musical time signatures, and there's a lot of interesting, ironically, poetry in this. song, which just a few songs earlier, she has sort of disavowed herself as a poet in giving that title to Lord. So I think I'm getting the sense that you and I could probably talk about this album for like five hours. However, I'm going to force us to discuss for as many songs on Bride as we love, what we

would cut if we were absolutely forced to do it. What's on your list? So there are three songs that I can't totally get into. One of them is everything is romantic. Yeah. I do think some of the vignettes are very vivid, like the, you know, the copri in the distance and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the idea of romanticizing your life is such a TikTok thing. Bad tattoos on leather tan skin.

Jesus Christ on a plastic sign. All in love again and again. That there's something smart there. It just musically, it feels a little too concept for me, and I'm not as interested in the idea. Yeah, the flowery strings at the beginning stand out because, again, the other sounds on this album are very consistent and pretty narrow.

Bad tattoos on never-turned skin. Jesus Christ on a plastic sign. Yeah, although, can I call out one other version of that that I'm just obsessed with and I'm worried that I'm not going to get another chance to talk about it. In Mean Girls, when those sort of like jazz piano pops in midway through, I think that's so fucking cool. It's amazing. It's awesome.

And that's, again, part of the genius of the album is the breaks where there aren't those sounds that you're used to and there's only a few, they just stick in your mind. And that, like, in Mean Girls, for me, it's talking about worshiping Lana Del Rey and it's the piano breakdown. And it's a great song, but the simplicity of the musical construction actually allows for some really interesting moments. Well, and especially when so much of the affect of Charlie in general and of parts of this album is about like, I don't give a fuck. The fact that it's so, it's so detailed and it's so smart in terms of what she actually creates, you can tell she gives. a huge amount of fucks and takes an exceptional amount of care putting these songs together.

So I think that's just such a special touch. Back to things I don't think work quite as well. Okay, yeah, keep guessing. I think that the second one you're not totally on board with is B2B. Yeah. You're like really in my head here. Yeah, the beat is kind of sick,

but I'm just not sure there's a lot there outside of it. What was, is there something that's particularly annoying to you or just? B to B is my ultimate cut. If I only need to cut one song, this is the one that I would cut. And I think this is the only song

that I feel like the album would have been better off without. It just doesn't have... Like, first of all, again, the idea, at least my read of the song is sort of about like not backsliding into a relationship. Totally reasonable thing to write a song about.

But like, again, it doesn't have the sort of... Oh, Charlie X-E-X is examining the idea of motherhood. Like, that's, that automatically I'm invested in. And this doesn't have something like that. I really dislike the sirens. This is one of those songs where I'm like, if this comes on in a car, I'm going to panic. I'm going to freak the heck out.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, it just didn't work for me. All right. So the third one, the third one is one that I, I don't actually want to guess. I want to hear you say, I think as I sit here, I do, man, I think you're going to say rewind.

But I need you to tell me what's the third one that you would have cut. So if I had to put like a fourth least favorite song, it probably would be rewind. But I think there are a couple of lyrics on. Yeah, we need it lyrically. We need, I used to never think about Billboard, but now I've started thinking again, wondering about whether I think I deserve commercial success. Like, I used to never success. 100%. She's just saying the stuff. We needed that. Also, I have to say, as someone who within the last like three weeks was like on a TikTok rabbit hole about like what haircut I should get for my face shape, just felt like really. Yeah, talking about. face shape is, yeah, yeah. I'd go back in time to when I wasn't insecure to when I didn't over analyze my face shape. Yeah, it just, it's really, it's like these things that you, you start with because

it doesn't start in a place of insecurity. It starts in a place of like, I just, I want the answer to what's going to be the best thing for me to do so that I have the answer and I never have to think about it as long as I live. But then that is a trap because there's always something else. There's always like, okay, then like, how should your eyebrows be if you have an oval-shaped face? And it's just, it's exhausting, Nathan. So I really felt the way to do it. Yes?

The way to do it is to have a super round face and be a man so that no haircut makes your face shape look right. That's the world I live in. I'm thrilled that you have options. Good decisions come from good options. That's one of the best business lessons ever. It also turns out to be super relevant to face shape. so I'm proud of you for having options. Try living with this.

I only have one option of a face shape. It's just my faith. Actually, I don't have an oval-shaped face. I have a heart-shaped face, apparently, according to the internet. In case anyone was... Really? This is a thing on the internet? Yeah, I have a heart-shaped face.

That's like a Nirvana song. Anyway. So, rewind, you've got to keep. Rewind and keeping. Rewind and keeping. You're not killing Talk-Talk, are you? No, never. I wish you talk, talk.

Okay, because that song has heavy duty Carly Ray Jepson, Call Me Maybe. Okay, yeah. The, I wish you'd talk, talk is, I missed you so bad, I missed you so bad. Yes, love it. Absolutely love anything being in discussion with Carly Ray Jepson and Call Me Maybe. This is another song about the 1975 done in the style of the 1975. We've been talking for months. And the idea of it being in conversation with tortured poets in that way is really funny to me.

Yeah, it's fantastic. And they saw each other in an award show and they stared each other down. And she followed him to the bathroom, but then decided not to. Yeah, we've all done this. I love it. It's like, oh my God, famous people do this too. Amazing. I wasn't quite as weird as I thought I was.

What's the third cut for you? So again, I'm not saying that I'm cutting all three of these songs. I think there were three contend. The one that I actually want to cut is B2B. Yeah. I don't totally click. There's something about, I might say something stupid, that leaves me a little cold. Yep.

And maybe it is just literally the fact that it drops off so abruptly at the ending, which is on purpose and which is is reflecting kind of like the end of the inner dialogue, inner monologue. I'm totally with you. but it just, it just ends. Yeah, I think you're right. And I think it's relatively, forgettable is the wrong word, but I love the first three songs of this album. And I love Talk Talk and Von Dutch.

And I just think I might say something stupid is not, it's an interesting point to put that song in the record. So I actually want to spend even more time with it as we get out from this to understand sort of, because I think this whole album is super intentional. It is purposeful that she put, I think about it all the time, about should I have a baby right behind 365 about doing Coke. So I was just about to ask you that very question is,

do you feel like 365 answers, I think about it all the time? No, I don't. I think it is intentionally that part. of that other side of the coin that light and dark, you know, confident cocaine girl, super insecure, feminist, all of the sort of like dichotomies in this album. Can I just say that we have no idea how much cocaine Charlie XX does or does not do? No, no. And I think there is a decent chance that she is playing a character in a lot of this. And that's okay. I don't care. I don't even need to necessarily need to know that.

and we're talking about a lot of cocaine. Well, when there's an entire song with basically the majority of the lyrics are bumping that. No, yes, totally. Totally. She's absolutely sort of club-girling it. And that's cool. It's fine. It's not about whether she actually is or isn't.

It's not even really whether she is or isn't thinking about having a baby, although I think it'd be hard to... Yes, that's very real. Look at another way. But that is one of the craziest two-song transitions you are ever going to hear. It is jarring,

and I am sure it is intentional. It's part of the brilliance of this album. And for me, it was like the peak Charlie thing. Like she, there is a shock factor in this to the point where, you know, to your point, I think she is probably playing a character. And again, she's a provocateur. Yeah, but rewind, I just want to say,

there are, musically, it is connected to 365, 365, and 360. Like, musically, there are a ton of, of callbacks and shades, which is what's cool about the title Rewind. You're going back to the beginning of the album, and the confidence of the first song now is being sort of a bit undermined by the things that she's worried about. And then by the end of the album, we're back on the fuck it. I'm escaping.

And I just love this loop of the journey of your mind, which can be in multiple places at any point in the day. And the way that you cycle through, like, ooh, I'm super confident. great, now I don't. Fuck it. I'm escaping. And that helps me feel confident again in this sort of cycle of where you go as a human being on the sort of wave of emotion. You're not one thing. And that's the story of this album. I also just love the way that she says, okay, okay, okay, okay. At the beginning of 365, I'm just obsessed with it. It's like wormed its way into my brain. I'm just, I'm so into it. You said that was your peak, Charlie?

was my peak Charlie. I definitely think as we went to conspiracy corner, I don't think there's a debate. I don't think there's a debate that sympathy is a knife is about Taylor. And I don't think there's a debate that girl so confusing is about Lord. Yeah, their lyrics

lifted from a Lord song. She's been very on the record. Has Charlie been about the relationship there? I also think it's super fucking cool that Lord was in the show and incredibly supportive, sort of the flip side of the coin of this song. It's part of the art that Lord is talking about how great the Charlie record is

and how everyone's gagged and blah, blah, blah, while Charlie's like, how do I think about this person? Is she supporting me? Does she want to see me fail? And there's Lord on social media being like, I think this is great and I support this artist. She's incredible. I can't even include this in our little conspiracy corner

because I just, I don't have any ideas. And I think it's purposefully that way. But if somebody wants to throw out some theories, when she brought up the idea that people were saying there were discracks on Brad and Charlie shot that down, she did say, apart from Von Dutch, which kind of is, I don't know who Von Dutch is about.

But, I mean, the only thing, like the descriptions are like someone, um, you won't fuck unless he's famous. like something about dancing. So it's very, it's hard to, it's hard to sort of suss out. I almost wonder if she did that a little bit tongue in cheek. Like throwing a little clue to people that's actually unsolvable. But for an album where there are two songs where it is pretty obvious who she's writing about,

the one that she has hinted is a dis is like totally opaque to me. Well, it's a great song, and ostensibly, I think it's about sort of knowing that you're famous and everyone's looking at you and sort of the feeling that comes along with that. Yeah, but there is someone, like, there's someone she is insulting in that song. There's just no, there are no real smoking gun Easter eggs. Right. Yet. Yeah. I mean, maybe. She's certainly set the table for a lot of this. Speaking of setting the table. Oh, I didn't give you my peak Charlie. Yeah, next album appetizer. Oh, yeah, I didn't give you my peak Charlie, which is just the discussion, another reason why I can't cut rewind.

Which is just like, there's no one else who could write those lyrics about Billboard and have it work in the way that it works for Charlie. Like, there's nobody else where that wouldn't be, like, sort of corny or feel forced or feel like. I mean, I don't want to say no one, but she's just the perfect person to do that because she is, you know, she's so engaged. She's so engaged with the industry in all of these different ways as, you know, as an artist herself, as a writer, but she is still that outsider. So there's tension in terms of her thinking about whether she deserves commercial success, but also like the value of commercial success in and of itself. So I just, I think that's something that she is the perfect artist to. pull off and I think it's really, I mean, there was a time when admitting something like that for someone in her position would be like a cardinal sin, but it just feels so appropriate.

Next album, Appetizer, is hard just because it's so hard to predict what Charlie is ever going to do. I mean, she's not that hard. Oh, okay. Did you notice that Rihanna said she's going back to the studio to start over this week? That she was very direct about the fact that she's working on the next. I'm not well. And did you notice that Charlie has said that Rihanna is her dream collaborator? Don't say this if you don't mean it with your full chest, Nathan I'm right.

I just think those are not coincidental things. And if you're Rihanna going into the studio right now and you hear this album, and by the way, I would never declare myself a fan of electro pop. Like this is not necessarily music that I get super excited about. But there is so much genius bottled up. and there's so much genius bottled up in this thing that like put it on, spend a little time, think about the context,

we've tried to red-crumb some of the nuance and context for this album. I will be shocked if you don't love it, if you listen to this pod. But I think there is some mutual admiration between the two of them, and Rihanna is now being very intentional about getting back into the studio and creating her next album.

Finally! My heart rate is elevated. She's L, EX, but I don't know what you're doing if you don't call Charlie. Like, I really don't. At this point, based on what she just created and the way in which she, you know, her history of collaboration, she's clearly an incredible collaborator, but this album is on the finger of the pulse of culture. So if you're re-re and you've been out of it for a little while and you're in your multi-billionaire bubble and you still sing your ass off, but you need a creative director and you need some people to sort of help introduce the. ideas that are going to, you know, become your music. Man, I would put Charlie X-E-X in the room with me right now if I was doing anything in pop,

anything. You really think, you really think if I was Harry Styles, I would put Charlie in the room. Yes, of course it could happen. What do you mean? Could it happen? Because it's been nine years and because she wore a fucking t-shirt that said, I'm retired the other day. No, she's going to go back and make more music.

Rihanna has declared, I want to see her in the studio with a whole bunch of people, but I want to see what comes out with Charlie in the studio. Fuck. Wow. Okay, well, now I don't even want to do mine. That's your next album, Appetizer, Nora Princeati. I thought that would be so amazing. I would be so happy. Look, I was going to say she might, like, go back and do some pop punk stuff

because that's now so mainstream and she was ahead of her time on Sucker. Fuck that shit. Yeah, I don't care anymore. I just want her to do. work with Rihara. Do the Riri. No, but like this is, look, I am in London right now doing a bunch of music industry stuff. And, I think, no, no, just like, like, whatever. Like, it doesn't matter. It's not serious. Well, I deserve it for that. But what I'm saying is like, and just like dumb music industry stuff, but like the music industry tastemakers in rooms are talking about this Charlie record.

And I haven't heard the people in the U.S. talking about it in the same. same way, because I think it's just starting to percolate. But, like, in the UK, this is, like, the fucking coolest. And the irony is that Charlie has sometimes shied away from being the fucking coolest. But this is considered to be right now, amongst the UK music community, the record. And they love the Billy record, and they like the Taylor record, and they're into a few other, they think Chapel Rhone is interesting, but Chapel's not as big here as she is in the States right now. Charlie X-CX. is what's happening right now in the UK.

I'm still, I'm like on Rihanna. I'm just not, I'm really not over it. That's great. I'm happy for you and for Charlie and everyone. Well, you're going to get the last, you're going to get the last word on this because I've already graded this thing. I mean, to me, and again,

the reason that I said I'm anxious is because we've had this run here of albums that I think from this spring have really distinguished themselves. I mean, the Chaparone record is an A. I think the Billy Ilish record is an A. And speaking of which, if you don't go, if you don't go back and, like,

dive into club classics at the, like, 40 seconds, like the middle 40 seconds has a section that is, like, remarkably similar to the ending of Lamor de Mavi. To the point where I wonder if, like, there was any overlap or if, somebody's going to get a phone call. These things came out close together, so they're not tied. But, like, there are some parts of those, that thing that are great. But the Billy record is great. The

Chapel record is great. Obviously, the Taylor record is like record setting. A lot of these things this spring have been fantastic. And so as we get into like pop girl, whatever number we're on, eight, nine, ten, who knows, I can't remember, maybe more. Giving an album an A really like needs to matter and be different. But what is so exciting about what's happening in this moment in time is all of these women are creating pretty incredible art. And this is a woman who has been, she's not new, she's not chapel coming out of the canon. She has been around for a long time, making music that has been in the club where you've been dancing, that has earwormed into you when you didn't even know it because she wrote a song or was a feature on something that has, you know, a hundred million

streams. But this album is a step up, a leveling up from the underground, from beneath the surface, into culture in a way that I can't wait to see what happens. I do not think that this is going to go unnoticed even at a moment in time in which, for crying out loud, the Olivia Rodrigo album and the singles associated with it

are still trying to make noise. She's still trying to stay relevant. Like all of the biggest female pop artists on the planet are taking their best swing right now. Katie Perry's coming back. Katie freaking Perry's coming back. But Charlie XXX has just delivered an absolute banger.

You are missing out this summer if you don't go put on this album. Think about the nuance, understand the context, and then the simplicity of the sounds that she uses and the tools that she uses and the sort of dichotomy duality

of the lyrics of this album are absolutely stunning. This thing is an A. I think it's an A too. I think the thing that's so cool about it is like, yes, if you don't go put this on, I agree,

like you're missing out on something, but I don't think there's that many people who are going to miss out on this record. And there have been great, you know, there are great Charlie records, like full lengths and EPs that I love that I think are so special and well done. A lot of people missed out on a lot of those

because she's had these moments that are like sort of critically beloved and if you're in the right sort of scene and if you are like a club kid, maybe you're really in on it and you know it and everything, but it didn't, it didn't break through. And that's,

sometimes that's to the benefit of like what she's doing is, is to be sort of like remain underground and, in a lot of periods of her career. But I think this is the album that synthesizes the more eccentric Charlie X, X,X ideas. And then through a comment, not of diluting them, but of just like making them cheeky and current in certain ways, and certain aesthetic ways and certain sort of like humor-based ways.

It's just hitting. And that's really special and that's really exciting. So it's an A for me too. And I never gave you my best lyrics. You called out the one from I think about it all the time, which. is there for me too but I couldn't help but feel like I needed to choose

one that was emotional like that and then one of the just like posturing so what is the ridiculousness so what is the ridiculous and this isn't like okay the number one thing

that's in my head is just like I'm so Julia is like so sticky to me but the other one is is on 360 it's that city sewer

sluts the vibe like I'm sorry what the tagline of like what rat like rodent boyfriend summer

is do you know about rodent boyfriend summer? Oh yeah it's the guy from bear it's Maddie Healy who else?

I mean I think sometimes people try to put Barry into that I don't know if he totally qualifies anyone's kind of like quasi

quasi left of center your boyfriend becomes like rat boyfriend summer I mean listen it's kind of like face shape it's kind of like face shape it's the same yes

except for men who are blissfully unaware that they should be concerned about their face shape because they're rat boyfriend no this is what Charlie and I are both trying to tell you it's a trap you don't need to think about your face shape your face shape is fine

I just too late okay well that city sewer sluts the vibe. Yeah. So much to do with that. This is why I tell you that everyone is in on the joke in the music video is because you're not going to convince me that she's serious when she writes that.

Yeah. But it's great. All right. This is a good one. This is a really, really good one. And the thing that, you know, is we dial out and we're going to do an episode where we try to sort of take a step back and we'll do maybe a fun song draft and kind of wrap up, not wrap up. We'll synthesize a few of the things that we're seeing. We still have some, we've got a

Katie Perry album coming, we got a Sabrina Carpenter album coming, we've got a full Gracie record that's coming. There's a lot of stuff to talk about. But what is most interesting to me in this moment, and this is sort of symbolized by Sabrina and by chapel and by this album, is that every single big artist, not every single, but most of the big artists in the pop world have taken their shot. And the unexpected is happening. And I don't know if that represents a generational shift or a cultural shift or just it's an absolute meritocracy and may the best woman win. But right now we are seeing some pretty, pretty awesome art from relatively unexpected corners where the people who are doing well are leveling up. And I am here for it.

Well, and I think it's been since early Olivia days when it felt like people or, you know, a person or in this case, I think a couple people. Not that like Charlie X-TX is not breaking, right? Like Charlie X-EX has had number one hits. Charlie X-EX has been like a mainstream. Unequivocally. But there are things that are- The art quality.

Well, and there are things that are breaking through right now that are in unexpected ways that has felt recently at a lot of periods. It's like there were some pretty hard barriers to getting to that place. Like there was good stuff, but it just wasn't connecting. And for whatever set of reasons, chief among them, that this stuff is just really good, stuff's clicking. And I just think that's so exciting.

So it's fun to talk about Brat with you, Nathan. Thanks for staying up late across the pond. Pop Girl Spring bleeds into Pop Girl Summer. Let's go. Let's do it. All right. He's Nathan Hubbard. I'm Nora Pintiati. Thank you, as always, to the fabulous Kayam-Machmullin for producing this episode,

and we will talk to you soon.