Every Single Album - But What About Pop Boy Summer? | Every Single Album

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

In a spring and summer that has been dominated by female artists, Nora and Nathan talk about some of the male artists that have managed to break through on the charts: Post Malone, Zach Bryan, and Eminem. They discuss Post Malone's forthcoming country album and what it tells us about the evolution of Nashville's music scene (1:00), Zach Bryan's 'The Great American Bar Scene' and his rebellion against the music industry (27:16), and Eminem's 'The Death of Slim Shady (Coup de Grâce)' and whether the rapper has the capacity to shock anymore (53:48). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Tara Palmieri. I'm Puck's senior political correspondent and host of Somebody's Got to win. Brought to you by The Ringer and Spotify. The 2024 election has been upended with Joe Biden off the ticket and Donald Trump facing a new challenger, Kamala Harris. If you want to hear what the insiders are really saying about the race, join me Tuesdays and Thursdays as I break it all down with lawmakers, journalists, and political strategists. We'll go deeper than the headlines to the anxieties at the highest levels of power. And of course, we'll chew over all the hot political gossip as we head into this historic election. Be sure to follow, somebody's got to win at Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Oh, and welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Prynciati, and as always, I am joined by Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, you occupy a particularly important role on this podcast. How are you feeling? Curious about what that is. well, what it is is that you are the man. You are the man in general and you are the man of this podcast. And this is the man episode of every single album.

That's what we've decided to call this. Because as everyone knows, it has been Pop Girl Spring and Pop Girl Summer and Brat Summer. And we've been talking about a lot of the ladies. And I personally was previously unaware before we logged on to Zoom this afternoon that men could sing. but you've jumped in and told me otherwise. You've told me that there is a whole rich ecosystem worth exploring. And we're going to spend a little bit of time doing that today. So can I count on you as my guide?

The only problem is that I think that the testosterone-heavy artists that we're going to be speaking about today, I'm not sure you'd say any of them are great singers, Nora. But they do create. They do create. I guess we'll have to get there. I think that's an interesting question. So yes, this is the man episode. I've also been calling it in my head.

But what about pop boy summer? And the three men we're going to speak. I'm not going to be able to get through most of it with a straight face. I'm so sorry. It's going to be hard for you. I do. I'm worried about just cracking up. But I'm also worried about, I do worry sometimes that I give

you a complex by like sometimes we'll be talking about something and you'll say like but I don't know I'm I'm a man I don't know and I really worry that I'm going to feed into that on this episode so just know that I think that you are are empowered to speak on a variety of topics Nathan and that'll be the case today but it is always the case and I want you to know that thanks a lot Nora this is a but a small microcosm, a tiny subset of the vast array of male artists that exist in the world. I mean, we are not going to talk about the death metal group that opened the Olympic ceremonies in Paris. Now, that would be a podcast.

Or a variety of other awesome, very hard rock groups. But we are going to talk. Yes, no, there are many men, I've been told. The honor of. in front of microphones. Here's the deal. In all seriousness, we're going to talk about,

we wanted to go through the outputs of three gentlemen who have made or are going to make musical contributions to this summer who feel either pop person summer adjacent or an interesting contrast to that.

And so we're going to talk a little bit about Post Malone, who's got an album coming out. we're going to talk about Zach Bryan, whose album came out on July 4th, and we're going to talk a little bit about Eminem, whose album came out July 12th. But before we do that, I do actually want to ask you, in all seriousness,

a question that came up in our mailbag questions a bunch of times that we've hinted at a couple times, which is just like, why has this felt like such a collection of feminine energy and girls girling, record outputs over the last however many months. Do you feel like there is a vacuum of men in music, men in pop music, especially, I suppose, adding to this ecosystem? Yeah, I do. I think when you step back and look at sort of male pop and in particular the sort of boy band phenomenon, going all the way back to the Beatles, but we had one direction you and I have tracked the,

legacy and history of that band extensively on this podcast that birthed one young Harry Styles who it's easy to forget took most of the oxygen out of the room of the musical world for

about two years and did win the Grammy for album of the year, rightly or wrongly on that decision. There's no denying that he is an electric performer who galvanized a massive fan base. So it has felt a little bit like he took over the room for a while.

A lot of male individual pop artists were trying to then figure out how they find their lane because Harry actually is such a phenomenon and has such an extensive and international fan base that it's sort of hard to get attention because it wasn't just vapid pop. It was also meaningful, well-crafted songs good enough to win a Grammy. Well, and I think that's a key point because Harry, in a weird way, it's like he occupies a big lane and or he occupies multiple lanes. It's hard when Harry's super dominant to be another sort of teen idol type pop star, male pop star, because Harry Styles can do that. Harry Styles is that. Yeah.

It's also kind of hard to be the rock adjacent. like cool kid, which is another version of that because that's also Harry Styles. Like I do think that there is one, and I'm being totally serious here, this is not facetious at all. I do think that if the question is where have all the pop boys gone, one possible answer to that is just simply Harry Styles did not put out an album this spring or summer and he's not on tour and he, you know, there's been photos of him going into the recording studio and we might feel very differently if this stuff was just coming out when he was in the cycle.

Yeah, I would say there are a couple of other explanations too. Don't forget that before Taylor Swift set the record for most sold-out SoFi Stadium shows that you and I and producer Kyah attended, it was BTS who held that title and that the K-pop boom driven by that band was also international and all-encompassing and took a lot of oxygen. So there has been a lot of pop there. And then I think we've seen a lot of male performers be successful just in other genres. I mean, country and the Nashville scene in general is as hot as it's ever been. We're going to talk a little bit about Morgan Wallen today.

We're going to talk about Zach Bryan. You know, Noah Khan sort of has been leading the revival of the Mumford & Sons-esque sort of singer-songwriter, somewhat sensitive male genre, indie genre that lives over the... there. And I would say that Noah Cohen is a pop star. Right. He's a lot of things. You know, that's a very, as we go over a million times in a million different ways, that is an elastic term. Yeah. But I do think that that's, that it fits. And he's had a big tour and a lot of people have been going to that show. So it's not as though there aren't entries. I also think there have been some unsuccessful entries. Charlie Puth tried to capitalize on the Taylor reference and it didn't really go anywhere.

Yeah, it didn't, it didn't did it. Much to my chagrin. You know, I mean, look, we're just in this moment of culture where it reminds me a bit of kind of Lilith Fair 2.0 in the late 90s, where female artists are just saying more that resonates with culture in this moment, some parts of culture in this moment. I mean, look, don't forget, did you see the video of Travis Scott and Milan? Yes. Insane. I mean, absolutely insane. And so there are still male artists all over the world across a whole bunch of different genres making impact.

But I think in terms of what we traditionally define as pop, it has been taken over. And I do think Taylor gets a ton of credit for this. She's not alone in it. But it has been taken over by women who in this moment in time, in this period of culture, call it 2015 to really the last decade. it's female artists who have been able to intertwine sexuality, vulnerability, speaking to culture. And that's why last year, seven of the eight album of the year nominees were female. And that's why I think you and I talked about in the last couple of pods that this year we expected to be five, eight, six of eight are going to be female again. I just think those are the most compelling and new and different bits of work.

And this is a pendulum. It always swings from one to the next, and we just happen to be in a moment where I think female artists are making the stuff that matters most. Let's talk about the boys. How will we start with Posty? You want to start with Posty?

I was going to start with Posty, because it's not out yet. We can get to the stuff that's already out after. Well, and he's been sandwiched in between two of the biggest female pop albums of the year, right? It's showing up on Taylor for Fortnite, showing up on Beyonce, leave eyes.

Why am I picturing as soon as you said sandwiched? Why was I picturing like the Katie Perry hamburger costume from me? You need to calm down video. And it's just like Beyonce Taylor Swift sandwiching post below. You're trying to bring that back so much. That imagery is popping up for you repeatedly.

The Katie Perry. They do live in my head for a long time. Well, I think, look. he's having a good year. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. What is your peak post-Malone moment of 2024? My piece, post-Millan moment is him saying, yes, ma'am to the direction from Taylor Swift on the Fortnite video.

Yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am. We look at each other. Yes, ma'am. Almost like when you realize that you and the other person have the same thought in your head at the same time. Yes, man. Like... Yeah, I mean, I think, look,

if these two songs that have come out, I had some help featuring Morgan Wallen and Guy for that featuring Luke Combs are any indication F-1 Trillion is going to be a smash because these are great songs he wrote one of them with Ashley Goreley

who's written more number one hits than anybody in the history of Nashville they are great they resonate I think he has decided to pick a lane he picked country and you start to guess it look Taylor when she released Fortnite

talked about how she's admired his melodies for a long time and I sort of did a little bit of eye roll to that and you and I both I think probably if we go back and listen took not a dismissive tone but like a little bit of a padding a little child on the head sort of tone and wondered aloud

about why he had found himself on both of these albums so close to one another but when I listen to these two songs... I don't know if I felt dismissive of it. I just felt like it was really, like, silly, but in a funny way. Yeah, that's what I mean. Because Post Malone, to me, I do think he has some great melodies. I think Post Malone puts out about one, like, just truly awesome song for every six just kind of duds.

Yeah. But I think these two singles sure seem like he's bringing a lot of heat to this. Oh, great. And that he's locked himself into a genre where he can maybe make. a really interesting expression. And look, it wasn't very long ago when there were a lot of concerns about his mental health

and about his physical health. I mean, there were some fan videos getting passed around of him on stage that were, I think, cause for concern, right? Yeah. I have to be honest, I'm not that tapped in on the day-to-day tabloid updates on Posty, but it seems like he's doing well,

so that's great. Here's my question for you. So, I had some Help was such an interesting song to hear for the first time because it is so catchy. It is so good. And I have full disclosure, Morgan Wallen as a person gives me just a ginormous ick. And in a way that gets in the way of the listening sometimes. So I don't gravitate to his stuff.

I press play on that song and it just felt like this is an undeniable song. Yeah. This is like a country. pop, you know, Luke Bryan-esque thing that fits into a category of those types of

huge sort of red dirt road type country pop songs that I understand and hear as just like a thing that huge amounts of people are going to want to listen to. Yeah.

Does it sound like post Malone to you. This is obviously a transition for him. And I'm curious about sort of where he himself is coming through to you in this. No, it doesn't. And that's okay. I'm intrigued by it as a result. It does feel more like the traditional Nashville monster hit making process. I mean, first of all, Morgan Wallen this week will have the number two and number 11 albums on the charts. Morgan Wallen is incredibly popular, and I think that's fine. I'm just being honest, I have a personal distaste for the guy. But what I'm saying about, yeah, but what I'm saying about him as a creator is what he makes resonates. And it stood the test of, you know, I think a well-documented massive cancellation effort and all that that has sort of made what he creates even more resilient in many ways.

and I think when you add that into the formula of some of Nashville's greatest hitmakers behind the scenes writing Ashley Goreley being chief among them, this is what you get. And it's for me, a telling, and it's a formula that I'd love to see some of the artists that we've covered on this podcast think about doing in the future. Because what it suggests is that you can get something that might not sound like you, but is an on-ramp to something new and different. That's interesting, and I want to get back to who might do that. I'll add, I feel like I do hear him just because I think Post-Malone has such a distinctive voice.

And we're, you know, we've become accustomed to hearing that through various forms of manipulation and auto-tune and hearing the kind of trap-pop style that he came up on. and this is obviously very different aesthetically, but I do think he has just such a recognizable sound and the quality of his voice that I think he's going to pull it off. And the track listings with the various featured artists on this album leaked because Target posted a picture of the vinyl with the back cover up

and it had all the names. So Wallin, Blake Shelton, Luke Combs, those songs are out, Dolly Parton, Jelly Rule, Tim McGrath, Lainey Wilson, Brad Paisley, Hank Williams Jr., Chris Stapleton. Like, this is in some ways a really, really, really brazen choice to just take an exploding genre, get like summon the Avengers and just be like, I do this now. But I have to be honest, based on the first few. songs, also based on the just sort of like endless goodwill that Post Malone seems to have. And based on the fact that I do think because he has a distinctive singing quality that comes

through, I think he's going to pull it off. I agree with you. I think this thing is going to work. I think it's going to be massive. I just don't want us to lose sight of like how much of a turning the battleship that kind of represents. Yeah. The assembly of this much talent, though, on a song by song basis is probably what's getting us enough variety to have really good stuff. My immediate takeaway from I had some help is if Morgan Wallen sang the whole song, it still would be a hit. And probably if 10 other artists sang the whole song, it still would be a hit. And that is kind of the way that the Nashville music making machine happens, is it starts with the songwriting. It has absorbed, you know, we talk about where did all the big,

you know, the rock bands go, like they went to Nashville. The writers are in, Nashville. And the writers are the ones who make the most money in Nashville. They write the songs, and then you find the artist, artists compete for Ashley Gourley songs. They're dying to have a hit from Ashley Gourley. And so when you assemble like this much of a range of absolute hitters, you're going to get some really good output. And because of the assembly of talent and the A&R work that was done on this record, I think it's a fairly safe transition for Post. Because again, I think he could not be singing and all of these songs would be hits. The Camilla Cabo strategy.

Yeah, except well executed, right? It's sort of a safe buddy. It's like a buddy cop movie in an album. It really, but I think that's actually, that's such a good way to describe it because Post Malone has a buddy cop comedy vibe to him. Like he feels, he does seem like someone that people like being around. Yep. And I think the fact that that Taylor Swift and Beyonce and Jennifer Lopez all kind of co-signed

that within the last however many months, it, I don't know. I have a weird amount of goodwill for the guy right now. So even if he is in some ways incidental to this album, I will very much benefit from his presence on it. At least that's how, that's how I feel. Well, I'm excited to hear more of it. It's good for Nashville as a scene generally. It's good for...

And everybody's trying to work in Nashville. You've got Latin artists that are looking for collaborations in Nashville. Like, Beyonce is doing this. Like, we just... It's probably an indication that has jumped to shark. But what's so telling about these artists in particular is they were the first ones to understand the infinite demand in touring. And these artists go out and they...

work. They are constantly on the road. When you go through the list of... When you're saying these artists, you're talking about the country folks that are collaborators. Yes. Yes. And so I think some of the attraction, you know, we've talked before about how the revenue of an artist like today versus 25 years ago, 25 years ago, they made 85% their money from album sales and the rest from touring and merchandise. Today it's the other way around. They make 85% of their money from the road. And it was artists who were Nashville based who understood the demand for touring and understood how to sort of nurture and always be out there. And I think you have a lot of artists who aren't content to just live on their streaming income anymore and who would like to get some of that deeply entrenched, passionate live fan base that Nashville artists have because what it ensures is a lifelong career. When Tim McGraw goes out, he's going to play arenas for as long as he lives.

and when he's making, Beyonce's out there, or a number of large artists are making 10, 15, maybe even north of $15 million a night in an arena in terms of gross revenue, you multiply that by 100 tour dates. Suddenly, that's how you get to, you know, the kind of big income that some of these artists are looking for.

So I say all that, just say, there's an attraction to Nashville right now because of the creativity. It's where the writers are and because of the business model. It's how artists are really building long-term, sustainable, and profitable careers. And so you're seeing Post Malone do this, but we already saw Beyonce do it

earlier in the year. We're going to see a lot more artists who want some of that fairy dust that comes out of Nashville sprinkled on their career and their music. I get the sense that Tim McGraw lives 15, 20, whatever, minutes outside of Nashville in like the biggest house that's ever been a house. Well, a lot of these artists do that. They live just outside of Nashville. That's the vibe I got. in the biggest houses that have ever been the house. And McGraw, again, is an example of a guy who crossed over, right, tapped into a vein of culture in the Yellowstone stuff in 1883 and, like, figuring out how to tap into, use the music as that cornerstone foundation of an artist's career,

but then create a bunch of other verticals of revenue. Yeah, touring's a big one. But in Tim McGrath's case, hey, I can also be an actor and create a bunch of content around that. And I think you've got a lot of artists now who understand that on a go-forward basis, you're not just going to be Adele. You're not just going to make an album every four years show up, maybe tour, maybe not, but like that's going to be your career. No, the multi-hyphenate artists are the ones who are going to be the future. And most of the artists who have successful music will be of the Olivia Rodrigo ilk, where they are great at about six different things.

Or what we've seen in Sabrina Carpenter of late building businesses in, she's got an ice cream and she's got a perfume and she's got on and on and on. I meant to try the ice cream. Yeah, it's pretty good, actually. It's a good reminder. But that's what we're going to see out of artists. And again, I think it's the Nashville artists who are leading that. Chris Stapleton this year has a new whiskey traveler that is going to make your eyes fall out of your head when you know how many people are buying and enjoying that whiskey.

So all these artists are figuring out that they have permission from the fan base, in part because they've been out touring, getting out in front of them being human beings. They've got permission from the fan base to become these multi-hyphenate creators. I was today years old when I learned that Tim McGrath is involved in Yellowstone. Yeah. This episode is going to reveal some personal cultural blind spots for me. It's fine. It's fine.

I'm happy for him. I've seen Tim McGrath on screen. He was very southern in the blind side. Well, look, he and Faith are in this series 1883, which is the prequel to Yellowstone. Right. And yeah, they're deep in it. They've got to, and they're sitting around. Are they in a fight with Kevin Kossner?

Who knows? But they're all competing for kind of the same territory, right? So, but he's not going to be the new Kevin Kossner. He might be the new Kevin Kossner, Nora. Wait, are you serious? You know who should be the new Kevin Kossner, post-Malone? Yeah, maybe. There might be too many face tats for that, but.

It's possible. So I want to go back to something that you said, which is that you would be curious to see other artists try out this formula. Names and names. I mean, I would love Taylor to go back to her house in Nashville and plug in with some of these artists and see what comes out of it. Because working on songwriting in Nashville now is not writing country songs necessarily at all. Some of the best pop songs are coming out of Nashville.

It's why this list of artists who work with the Ashley Gorley's of the world is long and not contained to a genre. So it would be fun to see Taylor do just as she did, taking Aaron Dessner's hard drive, working with Jack, and try some of these writers who, since the last time that she really was working with the Liz Roses of the world, this industry and this town have exploded. And to really tap into the vein of culture that flows out of there would be interesting. So Taylor, obviously, being one, but I think there's a lot of other artists that we've looked at who, listen, I'd like to see Harry Stiles base in Nashville and see what comes out of that work. I mean, I don't think that there is an artist out there right now who can't benefit from the quality of songwriting that happens in that town. You know, it's funny, as tortured poets has if you, and we talked about this when we covered it, but when you really go under the hood, it has some moments that sound like, little flirtations with going back. I mean, we talked about some of the harmonies and, but daddy, I love him.

And I think that's part of why you loved. Thank you, Amy. Is it had a little splash of what could have sounded like an allusion to some country aesthetics. Probably the least, one of the least country-sounding songs and moments is Fortnite, which just sounds like

an old school post-Malone song. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. interesting revolution of what Taylor's doing, what Postie's doing, what they're doing together. All right, you want to talk about Zach Bryan? Yeah, speaking of artists that don't feel like traditional Nashville artists. I mean, I still step back. I'm in awe of the business that Zach Bryan has created. I don't think he gives one rat's ass about the business that Zach Bryan has created.

But this is like Johnny Cash 2.0. This is a phenomenon, not a feminine nominon, but a male nominon that is tapping into everything from the Springsteen crowd to the Nashville crowd to pop. I mean, he is something like we haven't seen before. And I don't know what you think about this album. I think we should talk about it. I'm not sure that it necessarily cements his legacy as a songwriter for the ages as a Springsteen. But boy, it's not a coincidence that Springsteen is on this album. And Springsteen is the closest career comparison that I can make in this moment

because he's writing from just a very unique perspective. He is more poet than musician in lots of ways. And he just has captured all different parts of society as interested in this relatively chill, crooning music that, you know, outside of a few of the songs that he's written, these are not crazy bops that are going to absolutely bring down the house though he can bring down the house.

Yeah, but it's not... No, but you see him on stage and you've got half of the local teams football team out there with him on stage. You've got to a girl out on stage. Like, he can go in a whole bunch of different directions and that show is a party. But this is foundationally like he's dangerous.

not too dangerous, but he's dangerous. And there's an authenticity to that that just has him in the stratosphere in terms of, again, he's got two albums on the top of the charts. He's number three this week and he's number 12 this week and he's number 18 this week.

So there just is this accelerating fascination with this individual. I want to back up for two seconds just because I think Zach Brian is an interesting phenomenon on where he can accomplish everything that you just laid out. And he is someone who's crossing over into all of these different spaces. But I think he's also anonymous to certain swathes of people. So the album that we're talking about, Great American Barstein, it came out on July 4th. It's his

fifth album. Nathan, I want you to tell me how you came to Zach Bryan. Yeah, I came to Zach Bryan through the industry talking about how there was somebody absolutely exploding whose name was Zach Bryan. And that it was completely outside, he was basically independent and had not been sort of put... He was still in the Navy and he was uploading songs that he'd written on YouTube was the first iteration of him starting to break. No, that's right. And look, he ultimately made his way to Warner, but I'm not sure that anybody at Warner would say that they were necessarily responsible for the phenomenon. And that's not a knock. I know they've done a ton of work with him since.

But he had a couple of young individuals who were working on his behalf, who understand the dark and far-reaching corners of the Internet, and a team of people who were working really hard to get his music in front of folks. And there is just that, I don't know, there is something about him that accelerated from an industry perspective only because online fans were glomming on to this. And it's, look, it's, it's been a while since we've had somebody who combines the, like, the, the, the, this is the dude episode, so I'm going to say it. Like, who combines the,

like, testosterone manliness of, like, being in the Navy, who combines the rebel of being, like, a fighter and a brawler, but also has that sort of sensitive vulnerability that just doesn't come through in the traditional genres of country where there's a little more bombast, doesn't necessarily come through in the traditional genres of rap, where the same thing, it's about sort of attitude and ego. He just is a different sort of communicator and poet in that regard. I'm going to say a phrase to you that has been brought up to me in a few different situations vis-vis, Zach Bryan, that in a lot of ways I reject wholesale, but I think it's an interesting part of this conversation. So I'm just going to throw it out there. And that phrase is

Taylor Swift for men. I mean, it's not crazy. You know, there's been lots of documenting of his new relationship with Brianna from Barstool. Lots of fascination with, you know, with his personal life. There is a little bit of a cinematic universe building around him, I suppose. I think also what that is in reference to and perhaps you can speak to this if you feel compelled what I read, what I observe and what I, to some degree, I'm not a man, but like experience with his music, which I do like. See, you're doing it. This is what I say. There's, I know, I'm doing the Nathan part.

I'm like, I don't want to speak for the men. but there's an emotiveness and there's a permission structure to feel a lot of your feelings that this guy somehow has has triangulated the right way to make a bunch of guys feel like they can sort of openly wail about their insecurities and their lives and challenges Yeah. In a way that has a zeal that is probably some kind of of parallel to the type of response

that Taylor, but also just, you know, there are a lot of vehicles for, especially now, more women-oriented kind of confessional pop music that deals with a lot of emotional content and is designed to promote a source certain type of catharsis in that way. And so I suppose that's what that's getting at. What do you think of

this album? Well, I like this album a lot. And speaking of, you know, Taylor Swift for dudes, I think the criticisms that are thrown at this album are similar to the criticisms that were thrown at tortured poets, which is that it's long and that if you don't get into and underneath... It's long. It's 19... songs, which is still significantly shorter than tortured poets. Yeah. But that if you don't get into and underneath the lyrical content of these songs, that some people are saying that a lot of it sounds the same. Now, I think there's some validity to that.

It's an interesting album because it's full of features. You've got John Mayer. On the radio, her laughter and sweet mistakes. You've got Bruce Springsteen. You've got a number of artists who are featuring. And he seems to intentionally sort of alternate as you get deeper into the album with songs that are just him and then songs that feature. And so my interest is peaked throughout at all.

And, look, as a former CEO of Ticketmaster, this is a guy who released a live album called All My Hommies Hate Ticketmaster. or not on my watch, but, you know, I have been paying attention to his career for a long time. And paying his attention since something in the orange. Pausing myself again, something in the orange tells me you're never coming home. Really came out a few years ago, because that's the song that I think just had just broke through and just ended up on everybody's playlist like seniors in high school to, 45-year-old guys who, for whatever reason, he seemed to make it safe for them to, you know, say, I love you, man.

Yeah. And that's, like, it's a very broad swath of America that he's tapped into. So what do I think of this album? I really like this album. I think it is, I don't know that it goes down as a landmark. As I said to you, I think he's, going to get a nomination because he's a phenomenon and the Grammys, quite honestly. It's going to sort of be a cumulative thing. Yeah. Last year it felt like a snub to not involve him. And so I think he's going to be there with nominations, assuming he doesn't give him the finger,

which this guy's hugely capable of doing because he does not give a shit. And if anything at this point, his concern is not about making more money. It's about making less and making sure that his fans don't pay too much. I mean, it's a real essence of who this artist is, which is something that all the great seem to be able to tap into. But I think there's some big winners on this. I think 28 is fantastic. I love 28, too.

I think sandpaper is great. I really like Northern Thunder. Won't you risk your mind. Smell that Northern Thunder. Memphis the blues is terrific I hate to say it but better days with mayor it doesn't suck

and Pink Skies which was the first single I think are great songs like all of them I think there's some that probably don't you know I won't revisit but it to me

I just over and over and over again it's sandpaper for me and Springsteen that like even the that song has the I'm on fire percussion underneath it. And just the message that takes when you lay like that reminds me of a love I've never had. And just the message that comes out of this is this generation Springsteen. He's going to go out and he's going to play from the heart. He's going to tell the story of a kid born in Okinawa who grew up in Oklahoma. and, you know, he's going to speak sort of the truth of the dirt road American experience

that's going to be political at times and at other times, you know, about romance and he's going to be an American poet. Because this is a person who has a fair amount of just sort of disdain for institutional politics. Yeah. But he's going to speak the truth. And that's what's going to attract people in a post-truth world. objective truth still exists. We do not live in a post-truth world, Nathan. I think for a lot of people, that's his appeal, is his authenticity, right?

Well, so this is then interesting to me because, and it makes, it frankly makes the Grammy situation very interesting to me. Because Zach Bryan comes up in this way that is, I mean, I think he comes across a very authentic person. I think his story is so compelling. And just in the way that he carries himself, It just seems like it passes the smell test And he's just he's doing what he feels like he wants to do

And it really resonates with people And people connect emotionally with him In part because they believe him They believe that he's representing a certain personal truth When he was coming up, a lot of what he talked about When he gave interviews, which wasn't that often But when he did was Really not caring about any piece of the machine

any piece of the industry. And I don't know if that's changed at all, but a certain, you know, there's a lot of features on this album. And in some songs in the last, you know, year plus, he starts doing, you know, he'll do something with John Mayer. He'll do something with Casey Musk Graves. He'll do something with Noah Kahn.

Those backyard lights, don't show. shine is pride without your face. Which is going to, it's going to put him in front of audiences that are different from the audience that we're talking about. And I have to say the people that I know who are super into Zach Brian, it's more of a Brooklyn vibe than it is a, you know, it's, it's Brooklyn NPR Corps. It's not Appalachia, which is in some ways a reflection of, you know, I live in New York City. Those are just the people that I know to some degree. But I think like whether or not he comes into some degree of conflict of standing for the things that he wants to stand for when the audience expands out in all these different ways, I think is an open question.

And I think something like, do you go to the Grammys or not is a pretty interesting data point in that question. There's a chance he doesn't show. He may just give it the middle finger and it would be. super on brand. The fight with the cop was super on brand standing up for, I mean, he just is, he's that guy. He's rock and roll. Or the lack of a fight with the cop. Yeah. Because I think to some people, he got, well, he got arrested. And I don't think it was particularly controversial, but it was an interesting test case for how people responded to him because I think a portion of his audience when, you know, maybe didn't, maybe didn't care or saw the video and saw that he,

He was very respectful and thought, good, great, law enforcement, don't get arrested. This is all awesome. I think there's another portion that was like kind of wanted him, wanted to see him pick a fight with the cop. You don't think that's true? I think that was a bad. I think there was like some, I think there was some real Zach Bryan thinks he's an outlaw and he's like he's like being nice and polite in the setting. I think that's sort of ridiculous, but that was part of the response to that incident.

And I think it speaks to the bifurcation or more than that of the audience. Well, in terms of popular artists, I think he's the one who's carrying on the legacy of rock and roll right now. And if I have a criticism of this album, it's not the traditional one, which was, hey, some of this stuff sounds the same. It's that I don't know that there's a huge enduring hit.

I think 28 is great. I think sandpaper's great. I don't know that there's one. Look, Oak Island You know, dissolves into like a big jam that you can see in an arena, but it's kind of

all along the watchtower. So I think it's just to be seen if the he is a very, very, very, very prolific songwriter. And the question is going to be, what is the ratio of songs to hits?

I have to say, I think pink skies is pretty spectacular. And it's mostly in the storytelling. It's mostly in the lyrical writing of it. And even there's just something kind of stunning about the fact that where this guy is right now, he can get a song where he's telling, you know, essentially the story of going to his mother's funeral to number six on Billboard. Like that's just kind of a stunning accomplishment. Well, that may be the antidote to what I said earlier.

It may not matter if he writes hits. That may not be the point. It may just be that Zach Bryan is a vibe and that he is just like Eminem, who we're going to talk about in a second. And just like Bruce Springsteen, he is an American poet and that people are drawn to him for that. Just out of personal curiosity, though, I do think the more interesting, the thing that I would just be more interested to watch in terms of.

of how he navigated it and how culture received him is, if Zach Bryan is like churning out hits on a sustained basis, it puts him in an interesting spot because it speaks to the potency of his abilities and to the feelings that he's communicating. And it also kind of represents something that he has talked about not being particularly interested in. And I have a curiosity about that. But I guess we will have to see. Yeah. I mean, I think, go ahead. I'll, I just want to relay this one anecdote that I have not validated, but I have heard through multiple sources that he called his managers upset at the

prices on his online store and said, we're making enough money. Let's, I'm making too much money. Let's pull these things down. And whether or not that's true, that might just be lore that's building up around him, but that's the kind of fan-centric defender of the person in the crowd that generally creates long-lasting careers. Well, right. And that's what, that's, that's why I'm saying. I think I would, it would be really cool to see the person who was on top, hitmaker, that version of Zach Bryan, carry on that impulse.

and carry on that tradition. How much do you think he is in conversation with the pop girls, with a Taylor Swift, with, you know, Casey, Maggie Rogers, like people in the sort of cinematic universe. But with the conversations that we've been having all spring and summer, is Zach Bryan doing something, a different satellite that is big, but it's happening over there, or is there a relationship? I think there's a relationship because it's the accessibility and vulnerability that people are drawn to.

There is this moment of lots of stuff is fake, lots of people on the internet that create our economy and doing it for the gram. And so I think more than ever people are drawn to authentic figures. Zach Ryan is for people who are tired of doing it for the gram. I think they're, look, it. Literally, Maggie and Zach dropped into each other's DMs. That's how that song, Dawn's was created. And it was just mutual respect.

And I think there is obviously some curiosity outside of his core of what is going on over here. Because again, he just took everybody by surprise. It happened out of nowhere. He was discharged from the Navy like three years ago. like so it just is he's really the first breakout artist that the industry has had prior to the chapel Sabrina moment in a number of years and so there's been lots of attention and interest but it is that sort of basic and simple that other artists are just sort of tapping in and he doing the same with them the ones that he likes reaching out and that's why I think you see these tentacles

Springsteen to mayor on and on, just curiosity about what's actually happening here. How do you think Nashville feels about him? How do you think institutional Nashville sees Zach Bryan? I don't think they understand it. I think they look at him probably as one of their own, but I don't think they totally understand it because it didn't come, it doesn't come from the traditional.

I think they see a reflect, They see Johnny Cash's reflection in the mirror, probably. Well, and he's, I mean, he, I don't think he looks at himself as one of their own. No. And views himself as a pretty clear outsider to that system and has a lot of skepticism for it. And also isn't, you know, certainly, I think you could call this a country album if you wanted to. But the Great American Bar scene is not a country album in the way that it seems like the post-Malone album is going to be a country album. Right.

Or Chris Stapleton. is doing country music or anything like that. It's rock adjacent. It's sort of folk adjacent. It's a bunch of things. But the legend of his discovery has actually changed the way that A&R works in the industry.

Not just Zach Bryan, but he's a significant piece of the pie, which is to say the industry moved from guys like crawling bars looking for people to, hey, we've got to have a online needs to be on YouTube. Digital presence that is in real time measuring streams.

And we've got to find it before one of the other labels does. And what ended up happening for a number of years leading up to just recently when you've seen a number of the labels start to cut back on staff is as soon as something spiked on the data, boom, majors are all over it. That artists would get a big offer. and just because of virality, they suddenly would have a major record deal. And an entire sort of system was built at the major labels

to track this stuff in real time. Companies, cottage industry sprouted up to say, what do we see spiking on Spotify? What do we see spiking on TikTok? What do we see spiking on YouTube? So that we can be first to it. It really changed the A in our game. Now, fast forward a few years,

I think some labels have looked at it and said, wow, we were acting like, venture capitalists and betting on a hundred things hoping that one or two of them hit because they'd pay for everything. It turns out that in this world of viral moments, there are winners and losers and there are a lot more losers than there are winners. And so I think there's been some scaling back of the amount of risk that labels are willing to take on this. But I'm telling you, every single day, there are people who work for major record labels and independent record labels who wake up and look at data, data, data, data, data, and try to find the anomalies and the anomalies and

the spikes, and that was driven by Zach Bryan coming out of nowhere on YouTube. I mean, to be honest, the thing that surprises me about you saying that is that Zach Brian is not that that happens. It's that Zach Bryan had the opportunity to be a person who drove that happening, implying that it wasn't already happening anyway. And I think there's probably some listeners in the major label system who are rolling their eyes saying, listen, we've known Justin Bieber came off YouTube. We've been monitoring this in a row. But there was a real acceleration and full systems built data scientists hired around, you know, around COVID, to try to capture this systematically as opposed to just having a couple of kids.

Yeah, just as opposed to having a couple of kids just sort of tracking it, which has been happening for a while. He is the shining example of the guy who can shorten the timeline from completely undiscovered to stardom, he can shorten that to three months, and that can happen if you're finding that artist as they spike online. Can I say one more thing? Yeah.

Taylor Swift is Taylor Swift for men. Okay. Maybe. I mean, look, we've talked about it a lot how there was this interesting phenomenon a year ago this time, you know, really 15, 16 months. ago this time where it became safe for, for whatever reason, for men to come to a Taylor Swift show,

right? And I know, Jay J.J. Watt, I dare you. I dare you. I've given you my ideas around what happened, but I do think there was a, it was always safe, but there were a number of high profile men who made it safe and cool for dudes to think Taylor Swift was cool. That, that, that on-ramp seems to be easier for dudes to get to through Zach Bryan. Like, they seem to be able to tap into their feelings easier when it's a guy. So I'm not so sure about that. I think, but yes, these are very different artists.

Let's put it that way. I'm just, I'm making your argument. I'm validating you. All I'm saying is that a man can have as much of a claim to Taylor Swift fandom as anyone else. Yes, thank you very much. You're proof positive of that. I appreciate that. you want to talk about Eminem?

Let's talk about the great American poet. So, the death of Slim Shady 12th album came out July 12th. What is your like

just two sentence long review of this thing? Just top line feelings. I can't believe we're talking about Eminem on this podcast. I can. Eminem is fucking awesome.

This album is remarkable for how unremarkably different it is not like that's 12 triple negatives the point is like this is Eminem doing the same thing he's always done

yes it doesn't feel very different I don't know that there's a hit that makes you do backflips on this album but it is interesting to hear kind of the original I mean it feels like an album that is just a rage against Gen Z and a pushback on cancel culture

and finding ways to deftly push forward somewhat far to the left political content, but while still pushing back on the PC culture that the left has embraced. And, you know, that said, like, there aren't a whole lot of new tricks on this album. It's just interesting to see a guy of his age and his generation

still doing the same thing and just sort of testing out in this moment of society and culture and everything, how do people react to it? And I just came away feeling like this is a little bit of a trial balloon, intentionally not new, to just see how does the world take in jokes

about the mentally handicapped and physically disabled and non-straight at this moment in time from this guy. Well, so... What's yours? How do you?

There's a lot there. First of all, that was not like a two-sentence for you. There's so much to unpack that. It's just as remarkably unremarkable is what I would say in terms of like kids. It's a, it's a, it's a Y2K-era M&M album in some ways.

But the difference is that it's not, it's not 2001 anymore. It's self-aware to know that that's what it's doing. Yes. But it's not quite Katie Perry. It's not quite Katie Perry. I think, like, look, here's my one-sentence review of Houdini is, it's good. I like Houdini.

I think Houdini is dumb, but it's fun, and I like listening to it. Okay. I also don't want to discount that, like, we've seen, we saw an attempt by J-Lo. We saw an attempt by Justin Timberlake. Like, there have been people from. this era. Hard to plug back into the Matrix. It's really hard. Who have tried and failed. And many have tried and many failed to knock the tortured poets department out of that number one slot. And this is the album that did it. So I think in some objective senses, this was a success.

And one of those senses is that like there are things that I like. And I find myself even just listening to him rap as like an athlete, just as like a skill. Yeah. Like how old is Eminem? Is that Eminem 50? Yes. He's still got it in a way. Like, that's impressive to me. The thing that I think doesn't work about it is that an inherent piece of being M&M is trying to shock people. Right. And we're not, like, we are not a shockable culture.

Like, we're just not. Like, everyone is so, the former president of the United States got shot in the ear like two weeks ago. And it's like it never happened. Yeah. And cancel culture. is fake and boring and like making six Caitlin Jenner jokes.

Right. Boy is Bruce generous and about as much of a boy is Bruce generous because I'm not a boy I'm a man bitch. Everybody jumping to this. Cleveland Jenner went a front row

Pump on a fist. Holy shit cake Jenna just flipped. Told me knock this shit off and quit and get off a dick. No one is going to bat an eyelash. Like sure. You think he thought he was being really controversial?

I don't know because I don't know how you could live in 2024 and think that like people that, but I kind of think inevitably the answer is yes because I'm just not sure why you do it if you don't. Like I do think that there's a certain amount of, you know, whether it's online discourse or there's a certain school of thought that like really does believe that cancel culture is this big part of the world that we live in and like people just for saying things that might be a little bit irreverent. are facing actual consequences, which is just like, to me, it's just like incredibly silly and it's a little bit dull, but I do think that he might think

that that's true. Well, I like to think, I think that this guy is nothing short of a genius. I kind of do, do. I really do believe he's a great American poet. And I like to think, like I hear on this album, yeah,

he's recycling a lot of jokes, a lot of old, you know, feuds, a lot of things that made people react and respond. And while he's doing it, he's saying, they're going to come for me, they're going to cancel me, you're going to, here they come, they're going to. But it's almost like he knows that nobody's going to and that the end result is, wow, did you all get your undergarments in a bunch over nothing back then? And all of the controversy and attention and everything you gave me that, you know, made me a popular figure, made me wealthy.

Also, by the way, sent him into himself, became addicted to painkillers, like put him through a number of personal issues that he's been struggling with. Like, all of that in this moment in time, seems pointless and for nothing. And that is the cool part of maybe the statement of the art that I'm glomming onto as opposed to, hey Eminem made jokes about mentally handicapped people and Caitlin Jenner thinking that this time he was going to get attention. I just, I think he's smarter. I know he's smarter than that as an artist. I have to be honest. I'm not, I think, like, I want to talk about this album in terms of it being

basically a success because I think it, I think it is in the sense that we just talked about. You know, a lot of people tried to have a comeback kind of like this and a lot of people failed. And in a way he didn't. Yeah. In I don't want to, I'm not saying this to say that he's not, he's a very smart person in a lot of ways. In that specific way, I don't think that, I don't agree with that. I don't think that like, like, I don't think that I should be taking away from this that it was crazy that people found the song Kim hard to listen to. Or just sort of like arresting in a certain way.

There was something purposeful. and definitely objectionable in a lot of ways, but also very interesting about early M&M that I don't think, like, I don't believe that he is invalidating that by saying, now nobody cares. So why did you care back then?

People cared for a reason, and I think he wanted people to care. Oh, okay. I do think that, like, there's a lot of South Park references on this album. Would this rhyme be okay if South Parker did it? Okay, screw you guys. Would it make you less angry if Cartman spit it?

God damn it. And as far as what I just stated regarding midget to... To which he is subtly saying, sometimes it seems like it depends on who the messenger is. You laugh when Cartman says it. When Dave Chappelle says it, you try to cancel him. I'm going to say it now. What are you going to do to me?

And I think there's purpose in that. But again, that implies... that you are expecting a response. And to the extent that I do think that there is a big piece of this that didn't work, although there are a lot of things of this that did work, I think he was anticipating a reaction. And I think that was a miscalculation. And I think the fact that it didn't happen does invalidate some of the project.

Interesting. I mean, the most controversial thing on this album for me is the song temporary, which is really intense until the end when there's the recording of his daughter saying, bitch, like his young daughter. And that, to me, was the most like, holy shit, like moment of the record. So I just, I don't know. I, it is the question about this music. Commercially, it's doing well.

It's thrown the Taylor album. No question. and he at 51 remains a extremely almost 52 remains a very relevant artist. You and I can have this debate over whether he, I mean, you think he sort of backed into this and that it was a little bit of Katie Perry where he was kind of just going back to the old formula thinking that he was going to shock people talking about using the R word. Sorry, I'm cracking up when you can see me cracking up on the Zoom. I just got three texts in a row from a really dear friend of mine.

And they said, Nora, listening to the pod, olives are not brat. Thank you, friend. Welcome to the rest of the internet. First of all, a lot of people have been on my side with that, and I maintain that it is the case. Eminem is brat. Eminem is the kind of brat.

It is the core question of this album, which is how self-aware is it? because he doesn't actually go crazy far. There's some violence, but the violence is mostly between the two of them. He's just put out like an interview of him interviewing himself. Yes. As we're recording.

Like, so there is this sort of two sides of him, you know, piece of it. And I think the controversy that lives in him, the way in the slim, shady thing, killing him sort of, to me, was just a signal that like, it isn't controversial now to be that way. And so the point of that character, if it was, in fact, a character that he was playing, is gone. I agree with you that it's the question of the album. I think the self-awareness is not as high as you think it is.

I still believe that a core piece of the M&M artistic proposition is making people feel uncomfortable. and... There are moments where you feel uncomfortable in this album, but... Not really, though. I don't know. The kidnapping interludes are a little... There's violence and...

I don't know. I felt uncomfortable, but... Yeah, but this is a... Again, like, this is a person who has made songs about... Transporting his wife's dead body in the back of a car and explaining it to a child. Like I just, in some ways, it's a product of changing times and, and the ways in which

we are just sort of like so inundated by scandal and controversy and whatever that people lose the ability to get a pulse for it. it is also in another way a product of where he is coming from. When like this is a person whose early career genuinely pushed cultural buttons in ways where in some ways if you want to do it again, you kind of have to top it. And that, I mean, I don't want to like I don't want to sound like I am endorsing that. I'm not sure that I want to hear that either. But I just, I think he has.

I think he was hoping that there would be more sort of friction generated by this. Well, my favorite song on the album, I think, is Guilty Conscience, too, because it's pretty great. Matter of fact, ain't you the same one who hated bullies calling you bad names? Then you turn around and did the exact same. And it tells the story of M&M. It just kind of, like, it gives the entire history of this character. He's going back and forth between him and the character and, you know, you're still picking on Christopher Reeves.

Just immature and literally, you're still mentally 13 and so thirsty for some controversy. You're still picking on Christopher Reeves. There is this inherent tension of the two parts of his conscience going back and forth and, like, you rip on paraplegics, man? Seriously? Oh, bitch, it's a joke.

No, it's not. It's embarrassing. Like, it's back and forth. over, is it still interesting? Is it still? I think it's all encapsulated in that song. And the gunshot at the end. But doesn't that make you feel a little bit like what you were hearing?

Yeah, it's the story of Eminem, this person who was sort of an insurgent and then got, you know, rich and famous and successful. And like, let's be honest, Eminem's just chilling, like, his daughter's a podcaster or everything's great. But, like, I don't know how compelling of an arc that is. Yeah, I guess I just read it as him coming to grips with an understanding that in this moment

it's just not, it isn't controversial anymore even though he says all this fucking, it just that there's something about it that doesn't have a place both because of his age, but also because it's weirdly less controversial anymore. It just takes a bunch of the air out of the PC police balloon for me.

What do you think he's, he wants to do with this. Does he want to tour? Does he want to play shows? Does he want to do another one of these? Is this just like wanting to get back in the studio? Yeah, I think he's going to tour. I think he's going to tour and the tour's going to be massive. Does he need money? No, but he's probably got a pretty great lifestyle. And he's, as he talks about across this album, He's got family, you know, including on the last song of the album, all the people that he's sort of leaving. Haley, I'm so sorry.

I know I wasn't there for your first guitar recital. Didn't walk you down the aisle. He's got people that he supports. He's 51 years old. Yeah, he still got plenty. Again, the Rolling Stones are tromping around at 80 plus. He's got a long way to go. I know, but they've always been doing that.

I'm just, he's clearly, Eminem is an athlete. And, like, he's clearly still got the ability to do that. I'm just interested in what would make a person at his stage of life be like, I got to get back out there. I think that's interesting. Yeah. Because I think he's one of the greatest rappers of all time. And, you know, if you sit back as Michael Jordan and people are talking about Jordan versus LeBron right now,

you can't just take off the, you know, take off the suit. put the shoes back on and come out and remind everybody. As you said, even just the cadence of some of his rapping on this album, you're like, oh, right, this is someone who has, like,

flow that is unique to the genre in history. So it might be a little reminder. It's just so talented in a specific way that's recognizable that it leapfrogs a lot of the issues

that I think, like, the J-Lo record had. probably some of what Justin Timberlake is dealing with. Not that those aren't talented people who, you know, have musical skill. But Eminem doing year 2000 Eminem to me works better because it's just like there is one person who can do this. Yeah. There are other people besides Jennifer Lopez who can make dance pop songs. She's really, she's been really good at it at certain points.

And like I enjoy a lot of them. But like there's just, there is one M&M, which I think gives him more license to go back to the same aesthetic place. Well, I remain hopeful that there was more intent behind this than just staying in the same place. I mean, I think about Robert Plant, who refused to go tour with Led Zeppelin and just said, I'm not going to do it and has continued to evolve as an artist all the way into his 70s now doing the Allison Krauss. thing which won a Grammy and just has never looked back and never been willing to go revisit that, just always forward. I wonder if Eminem isn't, that this is, that there is art to this, because I just think of him as being bigger than stuck in, as you suggested, stuck in 2000. I do too. And I don't think it's impossible. I just, I hear someone decide to devote

this much space to quote unquote I'm doing finger quotes cancel culture yeah and my eyes glaze over and I just don't think that that person is really in touch

with it with with the most interesting territory that he could have covered but there has been like he's one of the ones who survived

the cancel culture moment there was lots of attempt and chat about it and conversation around it. So it's not completely gone. Yeah, is it boring at this point? Maybe, but I think that's part of the point of this album. Explain that to me a little bit more, being like,

so you think what he is saying is no one actually gets canceled. And what you get in hindsight, society evolves in a way that what's cancelable 20 years ago is commonplace today. So you think that he is trying to say we are regressing. We're moving in reverse. And you can tell that because in 2000, if I'd put this album out,

people would have been up in arms about it. And when I'm doing it in 2024, no one's going to say anything. I think it's more of a scolding of a generation of younger people who have shot first and asked questions later about specific kinds of art. Yeah.

That I have to be, that I'm saying, I think, is inherently dull. All right. And that's why I hope that that's not his impulse. But I just sort of think that it is a little bit. But musically, just is a pure expression of talent and skill. And also from the nostalgia perspective, I do think, like, I'm glad this exists. I'm glad this came out. I'm glad this was part of the summer.

Me too. Might be my favorite Houdini of the summer, but I don't think so. I'll have to think about it. All right, Nathan. Are you feeling? What you doing? Great song. Are you feeling like a man?

Are you feeling manly? I did so much so. And there's more to come, I'm sure. I'm glad that we touched on this. And there might be more to come before the summer's out. There may be some more dude rock before we get too deep into the summer. full. That sounds like a threat, but in any case, I look forward to it. This has been every single album. As always, I'm Nora Pinciotti. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to the fabulous

Kiameth Mullen for producing this episode, and we'll talk to you next week.