Every Single Album - 'Confessions II' | Every Single Album: Madonna

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

Everyone get to the dance floor—Nathan and Nora are breaking down 'Confessions II,' Madonna's follow-up to her iconic 2005 album 'Confessions on a Dance Floor.' They talk about whether this album is a nostalgia play or something fresh (1:00), how the dance-heavy first half of the album differs from the more introspective second half (23:42), and some of their favorite Madonna songs of all time (42:54).Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan HubbardProducer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Pricciotti, and I am joined, as always, by my friend Nathan Hubbard to talk about Madonna, which is something that I don't think that we necessarily knew that we would be doing a year ago, definitely, a month ago maybe. But Confessions 2 is the number one album on the Billboard 200 came out a little over a week ago. and it's feeling pretty buzzy. And I know we brought up on one of our last episodes that, you know, it was in the ether and we were listening to it and talking about it. And we weren't totally sure if we were going to have a more extended conversation.

But we're going to do it today. Nathan, how are you feeling? Why do you think it's buzzy? What do you think's going on here, Nora? I think a combination of, I mean, first of all, I think that this is a good album. I think it is an album that is aligned with, a lot of current trends and interests.

I also think that it's just there's something, and I want to be able to talk about where Madonna is in her career and her life without saying sort of patronizing things that are like, wow, it's amazing to see someone that age doing this. Right. Is this like Madonna nostalgia? Or are people really responding to this music? I think both.

I think it's both. There was a lot of marketing that went into this. Like, in hindsight, sitting at the fashion show with Charlie X-EX, smoking, showing up with Sabrina. Having like a maybe quasi-weird conversation with Connor Story. Yeah. I mean, she's been sort of making the appearances and putting in the work.

But a number one album is a number one album. Totally. And I think to the extent that, you know, this wasn't totally on my radar. It was a little bit of a defense mechanism of... What was? Trying to not set the expectation that this was going to be an at all, like, vital feeling. Yeah, because I think we both felt like... I think we both probably felt like the Coachella performance with Sabrina.

I'll speak for myself. I don't know if cringe was right. I didn't find it cringe. But I... What did you find? I didn't find it cringe. I did find it to feel a little bit like box checking. Like, okay, I'm trying to make a comeback.

What are ways to get attention? It felt slightly try hard to me. Yeah. Right. Go out on stage with the pop star and the current ecosystem. who is, you know, probably like two generations removed musical, spiritual daughter of Madonna, Sabrina Carpenter and is also someone who is like very of the moment.

That's fun. Yeah, it made sense because she had, for confessions on the dance floor, she had appeared at Coachella and played that tent. It almost felt like she had to explain to people why she was there instead of everyone just sort of getting it. But you know what? Again, the results kind of speak for themselves. And I don't think she was completely hung up on the results. But it certainly worked.

And I think if we're being honest, like, the critical reception of this album is pretty good. I would even, like, it's pretty glowing, I would say. I mean, pitchfork, it was in the eights, I think. Well, fuck them. Who cares? I mean, I'm a reader. Also, like, Sean DeSuzza wrote that review who I love. Me, I care.

Yeah, 8.1, which, like, that's not... That's a really good pitchfork review. It's a very, very high number. And I think that's, you know, I'm pulling one from many. But in general, I think this has been greeted with real love and affection, whereas I do think that, you know, the single, the collab with Sabrina, the appearance at Coachella, some of the stuff that was out there in the lead-up,

I think was met, it was by me, but I think this was true in the sort of critical consensus too with a little bit more trepidation, with a little bit more like, is this going to be sort of trying to make fetch happen? The album itself,

so like Confessions on the Dance Floor from 2005, it's sort of this like continuous mix, like you're out there on the dance floor. Put it on and go. Until the last one, two, three, basically songs, which become softer, more explicitly autobiographical, like deal with some. The Molly's wearing off.

Sure. You could say that. And I think also give you an amount of context. And one of the things that I think is interesting about this album is, like, how much of it is nostalgia, places where that's actually kind of not something that I think of Madonna as like typically being interested in doing or known for and where she's a little bit more willing to look back on the past in this and what that means. but that comes in a lot at the end. It also does kind of give you the context for the first, it's not even two-thirds, it's like three-quarters plus, where it's so much, you know, we're on,

or sort of like transcending on the dance floor. We're dancing, we're moving. The dance is love. The dance is catharsis. The dance is free, like all of that. And I want to talk about the end of it. And I want to know what you think about it because, like, honestly, I find a lot of those songs kind of weird,

but they also lend something to me in the sense of making some of the platitudes of the first, however much, feel a little bit less platitudinous. There are a lot of platitudes. Yes, yes. And I think that in the aggregate, that's kind of...

And a lot of dance, beyond dancing. Well, and a lot of the sort of Saturni stuff, I don't know. There's... You got... at what I have been thinking about with this album in your opening remarks where you said, I want to not patronize Madonna,

I want to not talk about her as a relic or have this just simply be a tribute to the legacy. But that's exactly the problem that I'm having with this album because I think the music is really interesting. it's not, doesn't feel like groundbreaking for me. It feels like some stuff that we haven't heard Madonna do before in various little corners of the dance music universe. She's touching a whole bunch of sub-genres that I'm not sure are that revolutionary. But I, lyrically, this thing feels a little bit.

It feels a little bit like the speech that she made that felt a little too long on stage with Sabrina. Also, I want to point out that it is the new moon of Taurus. Yeah. She's pointing to me because I'm a Taurus. Just so you guys know in case you were confused at home. Where there's, I'm just not sure what the point is. I'm with you that I feel more grounded in songs like Fragile and LES at the end.

I just didn't get moved by the lyrical content of the album. What I don't fully understand, and you can maybe help me with this, I don't really know how much Madonna does musically. I mean, I know she was a guitar player. There was a point in which she was a drummer in her early phase. I don't know how much of the creative process falls on. Madonna versus in this case, Stuart Price. Do you have a sense for that?

Not really. I mean, I think to the extent that I have a sense, it is more about like global art direction of an artist, of a career. The vibes? It's a little more than vibes, but it's vibes adjacent. I mean, so Stuart Price, who did the original Confessions album with her, you know, a beloved longtime collaborator, but someone in particular who she's worked on on music that sounds a lot like this, right?

Like they are... Yeah, although I mean, they didn't talk for like 13 years or something after the first confessions. Which, to my understanding, like, I don't think that... Was there a beef that I don't totally understand? Like, it sounds like they just sort of fell out of touch. But like, it seems kind of like that happened with her brother. It happened with Lords. it happens with a lot of people with Madonna.

Yeah, well, I mean, Madonna, Madonna is definitely a celebrity from a different era of celebrity when we didn't talk about whether or not people are relatable all the time. And like, that is just a different behavioral mode of communicating with fans, of... Like, to me, the thing that's actually kind of...

Strange, not in a bad way, actually in a way that gets a lot of my attention. is like when she's super earnest and that can be in some of the songs, like in something like LES girl, or in even just she posted something in Instagram, being like pretty genuinely moved, it seemed, by this album being a number one album. And it's almost like that to me is more arresting than the Madonna who's like either kind of doing you know, dance floor creature weirdness

or is like doing this long interview magazine interview with Mel Ottenberg which was really cool and had amazing visuals with it but like some of the shit she's saying right it's so like it's

it almost feels like it should be a performance but the thing that's amazing about it is that like you kind of know that it isn't and that's fun. To your point about not being condescending towards this I will say that I I'm trying to find the

right note to hit about how rare it is that she is working at this point. Like it is just very unusual to have a relevant number one

pop, dance, record that creates conversation at this point in someone's life and career. Yeah, she's 67. Let's just be honest. Like, there's not that many artists. And I feel like there has to be a way to say that without it being a put down and without it feeling like a backhanded compliment

towards the rest of the album. Because it is exciting. Like, there's something about, at least for me, there's something about experiencing that. that is in and of itself exciting. Yeah, and I would be interested to know more about the creative process behind this album. I would be interested to know, as we know from a Gracie interview, from an Olivia interview, from a Charlie interview, from a Taylor interview about the various roles and the ways in which these songs were created.

Because you had asked about Stuart Price and I completely lost my train of thought and didn't answer your question. I think Stuart Price is probably doing most of the nitty-gritty on the production. And the production and the music of this is what stands out to me the most. It's what I enjoy the most.

I do get the sense that she is doing a kind of 30,000 foot, yes, this, know that. I want it to be. this way. I don't want it to be that way. And that's valuable too, right? Like, this is someone who is coming off a stretch of three albums that she did under, you know, with a different record label, that we're not good. Like, it's not as though you stick Madonna in a studio with a couple producers and it automatically goes well. Like, this is, I don't want to under

sell the fact that, you know, choosing a collaborator and striking the right tone is in and of itself an accomplishment. But I guess my feeling is that it is mostly Stuart Price. Yeah. In the weeds musically. And when we think back to like the folklore Evermore stuff where Taylor was toplining, I have no problem with that. So I don't understand what it is in me that. That, feels the desire to understand the roles and responsibilities here. I think it's the trepidation that I approach any artist at 60 plus years old, putting out music. I just want to make sure that nobody's turning them into a puppet, right?

That it's not a Madonna puppet or a U-2 puppet where we're just trying to kick up the dust of nostalgia, generate interest, but it's really somebody else pulling the strings. Like Andrew Watt, who has produced tons of stuff from McCartney to Pearl Jam to, you name it, Elton John and Randy Carlisle's stuff. Like, did they get a producer du jour to come in and create something and then just sort of slap the Madonna label on it? That's what I was afraid of in approaching this. It's why I think I brought this skepticism to the music,

and it's what you sensed in me before we even turn the mics on today, I think. Or my hesitation in doing it overall was just like, because I have so much respect for her as this cultural icon. And a lot of her early albums mean a lot to me personally. And I was just a little worried about what it is because I can't. I still haven't spent enough time with the McCartney album to have the same judgment. But it is the same question. Like, this is Madonna's 15th album.

Does she still have things to say that are from her, right? Or are we interacting with the hologram of Abba? You know? Yeah. And that just was, that's baggage that I brought to this project. But then, like, you step back and you look at the numbers and you're like, holy shit. Like a lot of people are still tuning in to what this woman creates in an authentic fan-driven

normal way. I mean, this is by a mile the best streaming that she's had. And it's incredibly impressive. And, you know, you look back and you're like, well,

you know, there was a time where it felt like Madonna, as a cultural figure, would try to pour herself into the trend of the moment. moment. That was my initial reaction to some of her early dance music stuff. I felt like maybe she was chasing a trend a little bit at the time. Like I think I probably felt that way about Ray of Light at the time when it came out in 1998. But at this point, Ray of Light was her seventh album. She's on album 15. Like I think she actually kind of lives and breathes dance music. Yeah. Well, I mean, she went

she was in New York to be a dancer first, right? Yeah, but, but like in what way, right? Like, I just think her connection to the gay community, her advocacy for this music is something that now listening to this gives me pause and actually makes me rethink the kind of artist that she actually is. Because like a prayer is one of those songs that I will never, ever turn off when I hear it. Like, I just never will. It's like every breath you take, it's like,

all too well. It's just like, yes, it has a permanent, non-painful spot. You could play it 25 times in a row, and I'm going to, it's going to work for me. Less than 25 times, yeah. Yeah. And so I think there's a,

I have a little bit of a hesitance to sort of, to value some of the stuff that she's written later on, but it so clearly resonates and is true to the format. I mean, that's the critical reception piece for me. I would have expected people to shred it if it didn't feel authentic, but she's tapping so deeply into, again, pockets of house and dance music that, again, I think we have to take it seriously. And it feels alive.

Like, it just, it feels, it feels exciting to listen to. It's not the same as saying it feels like, you know, the absolute best album that I've ever heard. And now this is the best album that Madonna's ever made. and this is the new, you know, canon pinnacle Madonna music. But like, in a totally unscientific way, I think everybody, you know, with discerning ears, should be able to listen to an album and just go,

I don't need to think about anything in particular that's qualitative or quantitative, just like, does it feel like there is real energy coursing through the veins of this thing? And I really find that it does. And yes, a lot of that is coming from this mix. But I also think that it, I think that it works and it's okay for her to be just sort of self-appointing. She is as the troubadour for this idea that it's really special. And there are these special places where people and communities work through their lives.

and celebrate and process and commune, that's not a new idea, but it's an important one. Has she ever been like a fresh, relevant, current artist in your fandom? Or was she always sort of a generation removed? And if not a legacy artist, someone who felt like there was a whole chunk of career that happened before you even knew who she was. I think she is a generation removed for me. And so did you discover like a prayer or did you discover her through music or one of her later releases? I discovered her probably in like two ways.

One is, or three ways probably, but initially two. One being like a prayer, I think is just like one of those songs where you just, if you're alive for some number of years, you're just going to know it. and it's like, you know, knowing what a light switch looks like, it's just sort of, it's part of the world around you. Then I think, I mean, like, I think about Vogue being such a presence in culture and like movies and, you know, the devil wears Prada and like that's just such a sort of piece of like cultural artifact of my youth and that, like, using her music and, like, using her music And that way I feel like it's part of the kind of early impression that I would have had.

Then I think a little bit later, you know, I think if you're interested in being any kind of scholar of pop music, you got to know Madonna. So then, like, a little bit later on, I think I had more reason to go back and sink my teeth in a little bit more. But... I mean, look, I resented some of the Gaga stuff. And I still do because it feels so derivative. Now, she is her own artist and has made her own thing. but, like, you can trace the Madonna there.

Yeah, but you can trace the Madonna in everybody. Right. In Britney Spears, in Taylor Swift, like, reputation is like a Madonna album in a lot of ways. It's, it's, she is the, the blueprint. And, you know, part of, again, why I'm, like, interested in all the different angles of, what does it mean for Madonna to be doing something that is on its face pretty nostalgic? Like, comes from that because she's just every, like, whether it's her or whether it's somebody else, she's just everywhere.

It's like she built the world that we live in. Right. And I wonder if it's because of that in any way that, like, other than the documentary, which is a great, great, great doc, I can't think of that many times where it's, felt like Madonna was centrally interested in, like, looking back. And she's a little bit more willing, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about danceateria, but the like name checking everybody and like kind of taking you back to where it started and that world of New York and like how how this all began.

Like, it's the most clearly nostalgia bait-frey and Boscaut. Like, it's the most clearly nostalgia bait part of this album, but I also think that it's the best because it actually feels exciting to me to hear her do that. I do think, like, they were going to do a biopic on her, and then Netflix was trying to do the television series. So I think that some of the genesis of this album maybe was a bit of the failure of those two projects to get off the ground.

Right. even if through them it was a forcing function for her to look back retroactively as you said and that maybe some of what stemmed from this was like the

the failure to launch of those two projects inspired some of what we are hearing here. Right, it had her in a in a mood of revisiting the past. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations, fall out of sync, everything else follows.

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and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July 27th, only on Hulu on Disney Plus. Do you think that, I mean, in that instance, Instagram post, she seems to me genuinely surprised by the success of this. Do you think that... I'm surprised. I think she has every reason to be surprised. Yeah. But it's cool. And I think it's a... Yeah. To me, it's... The setting for this and how it plays out is going to be the most interesting thing. Like, will people

come back and continue to stream this, was this just kind of like voting for, like, is this like a feel good story? Or is the music deeply resonating? And I think it's not going to be the kind of thing that is heard all over the radio.

Although I think the Sabrina song, you tell me, I think that's probably her biggest song from this record. But I'm more interested to see if this actually makes its way into DJ booths and clubs. And if people are actually going to spin it and it's going to become a little bit of a cult classic in that way.

Yeah. Well, so, okay, here are the different levels. I agree with you. I think the Sabrina song just on a sort of volume basis because of Sabrina, because of the Coachella performance, that is probably going to operate at the biggest scale for all of this. I am, like, I just, I'm now bringing up Dancateria twice in like two minutes because I'm very into that song. I would love to know if that's going to get some amount of traction.

I will say that, like, most of the latter portion of the album is more about, you know, it's more about the beat. It's more about the propulsiveness of it. But, like, that song has a real hook. And I can hear it. I can see it being something that has a longer tail as an individual. song because part of like part of what

makes it interesting to sort of try to figure out like okay how much resonance is this going to have how much is this going to last where are people going to play this how are people people going to play this is the fact that like all of these songs are designed to string together like they're intentionally made

so that you actually aren't pulling one out or the other but like that is one that I can hear I just can hear it as a as as as as as as as as anything on here is intended to be. I mean, there's no question she's going to have the, you know, the gay-leaning clubs, like, are going to play this. Yeah. I think beyond those contexts, it's more of an open question.

Like, I don't think this is going to be at number one for weeks and weeks and weeks, but like- No, no, no, no, it's not. Bring Your Love is streaming half a million a day on Spotify right now. It's slightly ahead of Danceria, which to me suggests. that it's going to be bring your love that hangs in there the longest. Yeah, I think that makes sense. And it just, you also, you bring the Sabrina people in with that

and that, that's a big number, that's a big audience. What do you think of the, like, take out the Coachella of it all, take out, like, what do you think of Bring Your Love as a song? Are you moved by it? No, I'm not.

Yeah. I find the two of them very winning together. That's a good way to say it. I find, like, lyrically, I think for the most part, the songs on this record may not be, like, lyrically inspiring. They don't necessarily give you, like, a ton to latch onto. There's very little that, like, bothers me.

I will say that there's something about I know where the bodies are buried that I find really clunky. And I don't really know why. It's just strange to me. Yeah. There's something about her flow. And I say that both of us being in New York City at the moment, having just watched three nights of Jay-Z perfect his flow at Yankee Stadium. But there's something about her flow.

Wait, I didn't know you went. I didn't go. Oh. It was too expensive. Let's be honest. Like I was going to go on Sunday night and a reasonable ticket was $2,000 and I was like, I'm just not going to do it.

I mean, do you blame me? No, no, I don't. I don't. Yeah. I mean, I would have liked to see in Rihanna. I would have liked to see in Beyonce. I would have liked to see the whole crew that came out. But it just felt like it.

And I think we can come back to it. I think it ended up being like a much bigger cultural moment than most people were anticipating or understanding. and the prices for his LA show went up 60% overnight. And it was pretty interesting. But back, speaking of artists that you might look at with some skepticism who are both in an incredibly wealthy celebrity bubble, but also unclear whether they're still creating new stuff that matters,

Jay-Z did not run away from anything legacy. And it appears he does have an album coming, so it'll be interesting to see. how that is received. But I will approach that probably with the same skepticism. For sure, for sure. I approach this one. But there is something about her flow,

lyrically, that feels a little stilted. And like, it stands in contrast to the Gracie album that's dropping on Thursday. Or the way that Charlie lyrically you know

well we live in a much more generally verbose modern pop environment like but our artist du jour are cramming a lot of words into these sentences and

and they've learned to do it with a certain type of elegance and I don't know that that's her forte yeah the dance floor is not just a place it's a threshold a rich where movement replaces language. The dance floor is not just a place. It's a threshold.

Like what? Okay. Yeah, but like, people who spend a lot of time at the club kind of talk like that. I guess. Yeah, I mean, I think I believe her when she says it's not okay.

I don't fuck with it on everything. It's not okay. I don't fuck with him. Uh-huh. I think I believe that that's part of her normal vernacular, but it does feel like she's holding on to figures of speech that are five years past their prime, because it took that long for it to bubble up into the people

that she trusts enough to interact with on a daily basis, and then she holds on to those figures of speech. speech as if they are now a thing, but other people have moved down to saying... To say what? What are they saying? What are the kids saying now, David? I'm not the person to say that, but it just feels like, yeah. I mean, I don't... There is a... You want Madonna to be like, like, I just album bogged Sabrina Carpenter, six, seven. Right. It's not what I want her to do at all, but it, there's, I think it's believable enough.

Again, lyrically on this album... Madonna beatmogging the fuck out of Charlie XT. Yeah, that's not what I want to hear from her either. You're right. But it just, there is a noticeable difference in the way that, in the cadence of her vocal, that is... Yeah, it's just, I think it's literally just a generational thing, and it's interesting to hear.

What did you love on this? Or if there's nothing that you loved, what did you like a lot? I like fragile a lot. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I think I... I don't know. What did you love?

I love Dancetria. Okay. I think that is a genuinely great song. It, like, and it's both... But does it feel like she's sort of reposting Vogue? Yeah, but it also feels... like it feels earned, I think, just because of the story of it. I also think that I think this album is too long and suffers a bit to me from getting a little bloated.

And sometimes that is harder to get away from when you are working within a relatively narrow, though I think within the bounds of dance and house music, there's a pretty wide array of styles going on here, but generally speaking, there's a lot of similar production. And there's something about the textures in that song that stand out to me. It's, again, part of why I feel like I can hear it as a song that could kind of escape the bubble of this album a bit. I think the self-referential thing is fun

and makes the Vogue 2.0 of it all a little bit more intentional feeling as opposed to just a copy and paste. I'm super into it. Like that's from an album that I don't think is meant to have songs cherry-picked and put on playlists. I'm going to cherry-pick that song and put it on playlists. Okay.

I mean, I will, yeah, okay. I don't mind it. You will cherry pick it and put it on playlist. Yeah, I'll do both. Like, I'll... Again, I'm very warm towards the last four songs, though it's probably where on an average playthrough, I stop other than LAS Girl, which I really like.

But I will listen to this album some, I think, just like. press play. But yeah, that's one that I'll pick out. I also, I like read my lips. Yeah, I do too. And again, that, you know, the flamenco guitar and the regga horn section towards the end, it's like those little moments that peek out of the mix, I think are really, really fun. I found my defenses slipped by the end of one step away. Like, I found myself sort of in the vibe by then, even though the lines at the beginning felt the little...

People think that dance music is superficial but they've got it all wrong. People think the dance music is superficial but they've got it all wrong.

Yeah, I was like, who are people? Well, we're in the confession booth. You don't talk to people. Who are people? I mean, understandably so. You don't trust anybody. You don't let anybody get close to you.

People are weird. I mean, I was downtown I'm saying at the same hotel as Zendaya and Tom Holland. Okay. I'm telling you this because it's been impossible to get in and out of that hotel because people are fucking mobbed day and night outside this hotel, some of whom are the crazy autograph seekers or like, you know,

memorabilia, eBay salespeople who are just pretending that they're fans to get them to sign stuff. but there are also some genuine, like, fans out there. And when I tell you, there are, I don't know, at least eight large burly men in addition to 12 of New York City's finest who were camped out through the lobby and hotel. Like, that's what it takes to protect a celebrity today. There's no way that Madonna can have any normal interaction

with people at this point. Well, and also she's someone who has, gone through life and life as a celebrity in ways where that's had a real cost to not only just sort of like her relationship with moving through the world, but with some very deep personal relationships. Like you said, there's fragile is a song about her brother who's now passed away. Betrayal is about her stepmother. her brother she had a complicated relationship with

because he wrote sort of like a tell-all book about being the sibling of Madonna so like talk about someone who's going to have some trust issues yeah she's got A1 trust issues as lots of famous people do so it's understandable I guess I agree with you that her vulnerable moments are her most

interesting and endearing on this album and to me the most kind of groundbreaking feels a little over the top but like I don't I think of Madonna is generally speaking having having some hard edges to her and like that's that's part of the beauty

and the excitement a lot of the time is whether it's the armor of the dance floor or the kind of I'm going to poke you and provoke you and that's part of what this is but something like the last song LES like it's so sweet, it's soft.

Polaroids a tape to the wall. Can't forget that boy at all. It's like delicate. Like it's, you know, it's just all these things that I don't normally associate with her. And like, I do think that that's a cool note to end on. And again, without doing that condescending thing, for someone at this point

to finish an album that is now the number one album in this country and many countries on a note that feels like new and fresh and interesting that's really it's really just not something that we get very often

and perhaps even at the risk of sounding condescending I feel like it's important to acknowledge that yeah that's why we're doing it I think a full every single album discography review of Madonna would be very interesting. And again, this album makes me think differently about that discography. Like this is, to your point, it is not, this isn't like a victory lap, really.

It's a genuine effort. It's, no, but it's, you know, you're smart to bring up the fact that this did kind of come out of both of the sort of biography projects and the movie not being able to get off the ground because it does kind of show you it gives you some insight into how she sees the arc of her life and career like the sort of the placing herself

particularly in this dance mode that's not like shocking to me that that's how Madonna sees herself but like it is a it it grounds that in a way that's kind of cool or at least noteworthy. We've kind of talked about the songs that

have a chance to get some traction and maybe be some of the bigger ones to come out of this. We've talked about Stuart Price, I think, which there's no question, you know, who the most important collaborator of this is. Where would... I have a feeling you have some cuts. I have a feeling there's some things that don't work for you.

Before we poop on a Madonna song, Do you have, like, iconic Pantheon-level Madonna songs besides Vogue? I love hung up. I just, like, fucking love hung up. I love that song. I think it's amazing. Crazy for you is a big one for me. Okay.

Live to tell is a huge one for me. And then it's like the usual. like into the groove, bring it. Material Girl. Like a prayer does not even have a billion streams on Spotify. Yeah, that's, that's, that's wild. It's like an all-timer. It's an all-timer and it's got fewer than 850,000, 850 million streams.

I mean, Madonna does not have a billion streaming song. I mean, she's got the song with popular with Playboy Cardi, but that doesn't count. I think that is just a measure of, time and era. It is precisely, but it's... Anyway. I think school has to go on this album. School's pretty weird.

I can make the music on a dance floor. School just does not... School just does not... I understand the point of what we're trying to accomplish there. Yes. Yeah, and it's kind of, it is interesting, like, because typically, you know, she, she did the sex book, which was like a whole thing, and there's the, there's like a page where it said, I'll teach you how to fuck. And historically, like, generally when she sort of positions herself as, as the teacher. And this perspective is more open to being a student of how to fuck, I suppose. And like, I don't know. I think that's interesting context. I wrote in my notes, musically, this might be my bathroom break at the club,

but interesting conceptually. Yeah. It comes in the part of the album that I think sag's a little bit. Yes, I agree. And so, yeah, that's the one. That's the cut for me. But I don't have anything that I had like a major, if you accept this,

like if you accept it in its entirety and you allow yourself to, take this seriously. I mean, I say that not like, why wouldn't you? But if you take this as a genuine effort and you get past the skepticism that I had approaching it, then like the vibe is good from start to finish. The production is great. The, for this may not be your cup of tea from a genre perspective if you're like a pure pop person. But like this is genuinely a, authentic dance music. And the vibes are high for me from start all the way to school, really.

So I think about love sensation where I don't know. Maybe like I don't know that this hit me necessarily the first time through. But I think once I was going back and once I was going back with the understanding that like I'd listened and I'd really liked it and I'd felt like, man, this could benefit from a bit of a trim. I think that stuck out to me as a song that's, you know, it's a sort of pure dance track. It's fun. It doesn't have anything that makes it essential to me.

I don't get a ton from my sins or my savior. Okay. There are like a couple little melodic moments that I find cool, but... You don't like all the French? I have no problem with the French. knocked out of the world knocked out of the World Cup and now criticized

here on every single album tough break it's also just like it's in the portion of the track listing where I'm more sensitive to why is this here did this need to be here what do you think about Strome is Belgian but

he's obviously speaking French speaking French yeah what do you think about bizarre, the song with Martin Garrick's? A lot of people didn't like that song. I was okay with it, actually. I was also okay with it. I think it's, what do you think of it? So, like, this is about Sean Penn. I think so. Yeah. And there's just something very funny to me about writing this song about Sean Penn and just being like pretty weird. Pretty weird. That's so.

sort of what I have to say about it. Pretty weird time. Yeah, it was a weird time. No, totally. Totally. That's its charm to me. I don't, I, I enjoy it. I think it's kind of fun. Yeah, no, I'm, I think a lot of people flagged it as, oh, this one was part of the, I, I'm in. Yeah. Yeah, those are sort of, oh, and then, what about, where are you on betrayal? This is the story of survival.

This is the stepmother song. Yeah. Listen, again, once I allow the vibe into my heart from start to finish, I'm okay with this album. There's nothing that rubs me the wrong way or like, where I'm like, I reject this. I can't handle it. Got it. I think I'm with you that if I were just to cut one, it would be school. I think I might give it a tighter trim than even that.

Because I don't resonate with the lyrical content of this album, I really only would trim things that upset the vibe a little bit. And in that way, I mean, read my lips does, is the first sort of stumble to just to put it on in the background. and have it just be like you've just walked into the lobby of the W. Oh, but it's not that disruptive. No, it's not. So, again, I don't...

It's cool. Yeah. I think it's really school that trips it up a bit for me. And that might have been the point. There are a few moments on this album where there's a tiny bit of pivot. Yeah. Sometimes she's trying to weird you out a little bit. and mission accomplished, I'll say.

I think we've made her a point that, like, lyrically is not the mode in which this thrives, but was there anything that stuck out to you? I think that some of this stuff from the test is interesting. I'm treading on your footsteps. Sometimes I think you wish I'd go away, but my shadow stays. Like, that's a good line.

That's insightful. Mother-estranged, previously estranged daughter kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. I think that's a good line. I bought that song the most. We're not the same, but I'm chatting on your pussy.

You wish I'd go away. But my shadow stays. Yeah. I was most intrigued by, yeah, by that one lyrically. I agree. And it really sounded like something, you know, everyone involved had spent a lot of time thinking about and sort of real in that way. and you know what I like to the

I sort of liked the use of bizarre in the Sean Penn song so those are my two okay there's nothing that's offensive about this album it's it's an easy

again if you get over the threshold in the initial hurdle it's easy to digest and I think if you if you don't feel an initial hurdle and actually come at this with like a lot of enthusiasm and excitement,

I think it doesn't disappoint you, which I was more worried that that would be my experience with it, rather than just feeling so generally skeptical of it that I wouldn't be able to get into it. I think I was more like guarding against being let down. And I think that it really works in that context. Do you want to dare to give it a grade all of that, said. No, I want to hear what you have to say about this. Really, where do you think this is? This is what I've been, this is the reason that I wanted to do this was to hear how you were actually

going to grade this album in context of your portfolio of A's and B's. And I think you gave Katie Perry a D. I think you actually gave her some sort of C. No, I didn't. I think I gave her an F. I don't remember. I don't think that I was generous to Katie Barry. I gave it a B. I gave it a flat B. Okay. That's lower than I thought you were going to say. Why?

Well, okay. Now I'm like defensive against that because I didn't think of that as like being harsh on it or giving it a bad grade. I don't think it is being harsh on it. I think it's actually exactly what it deserves. I think that it is... I'm proud of you for not falling into the nostalgia play and like overraising. funny because I feel like this album is making me feel nostalgic for things that I didn't even experience. And like I want to give it credit for that. But I don't, look, I don't think that this album is going to be like canon. But I think it's very good. I think that it is very good, especially in the music and the production of it. I think the centering it as this like project about the dance floor makes that okay. I don't think that there's a lot.

lyrically all that interesting to me. So it has some areas that aren't, it's not that I find them bad. It's not that I find them failures. It's just more that I find them like, this wasn't what this was about and there's just not a lot to latch on to in categories A and D,

but in B and C and F, it thrives. And the way that that all worked out to me is I gave it a B. Well, that's where I am. And I think I'm, I don't think I'm being generous. So I also don't think they're being generous. Like I think it's worthy of a B and I think that matters at 67 years old when you are in a elevated rich, you know, trust issue bubble.

Like it's very, very impressive. MDNA, Rebel Heart and Madam X, like those are three albums that would not get a B if discussed on this podcast, I don't think. And so the context of coming from that run is part of this to me, too, and part of the experience of this album, but I'm not trying to evaluate it in order to just say, wow, it's better than Madam X.

I want to look at it by itself, like on its own terms. And I think that that's the right answer. I just don't want B to stand for better than I thought it was going to be. Right. Right. Right. Well, all righty then.

I'm glad that we had this conversation, Nathan. I think that this was important to do. It was. I think I'm left feeling like we only put a toe in the water of Madonna because you made a very good point earlier, which is, I mean, the salient point is like, Madonna is at the root of almost every album that we've ever reviewed on this podcast

that we've ever talked about. Correct. And it's sort of silly to start your journey. journey with this album because there's so much richness and depth at the heart of her book of art. But if you do- That impacts almost everything that we hear. If you start a journey with this album and you like it enough to want to know what else is there,

then- Wow, have we got some Madonna for you. Yeah, what magic lies in store? And what other magic lies in store, Nathan, the next time that we are back here on this podcast, we're going to have a new Gracie Abrams record to talk about. And so we're going to turn our conversation there, which I know that you're very excited about. I'm excited to talk to you about it for sure. This has been every single album. As always, I'm Nora Preciati. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to Kaia McMullen for producing this episode and to you for listening. We'll talk to you next week.