Every Single Album - 'Cowboy Carter' | Every Single Album: Beyoncé

Episode Date: April 4, 2024

'Cowboy Carter' is here, marking Beyonce's foray into country music—or has she been here all along? Nora and Nathan talk about the breadth of this 27-song album (1:00), the array of influences that Beyoncé pulled from for this project (39:13), and some of their favorite and least favorite songs (1:09:46). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, can I talk to you? Over 25 years ago, on September 29, 1999, we watched a brainy girl with curly hair drop everything to follow a guy she only kind of knew all the way to college. And so began Felicity. My name is Juliet Litman, and I'm a Felicity Superfan. Join me, Amanda Foreman, who you may know better as Megan, the roommate, and Greg Grunberg, who you may also know as Sean Blunberg,

as the three of us revisit our favorite moments from the show and talk to the people who help shape it. Listen now to Dear Felicity on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Princiotti and I am here as always with Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, are you ready to talk about Cowboy Carter? Ye and I cannot stress this enough. Fucking ha.

I tried to work that into a tweet. Ye and I cannot stress this enough ha. Like four times last week. And it just never hit. For me, I never found the right way to do it. So I'm glad that you've made that happen now. This is, as is tradition, the first time that we've had a conversation about this new album with each other, we're going to do it in front of all of you on this very podcast.

So having had, let's see, it's Monday, Monday morning, Monday afternoon here on the East Coast, as we're recording this, having had Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and just a little bit of a fourth day with this latest Beyonce album. Nathan, how are you feeling? Like, tell me your instant thoughts, instant reaction, and how you experienced Cowboy Carter for the first time. I am floored by this as a piece of art. I really am. I'm tied in knots in a good way about it,

musically, about the social experiment that I think this album release is. But this is the first time we've talked about, Beyonce, Nora, but it's not the first time that we've talked behind the scenes about Beyonce. First time we talked about this album, for sure, right now. But you and I have talked about doing Beyonce every single album a bunch, haven't we? True. And there's like a main reason that we haven't done it. And I think it's germane to this album and what this experiment is.

Because the reason you and I have not done Beyonce is that you are a 20-something, white woman and I am a 40-something white man. And there is so much in Beyonce's art that is about the black experience and even more so about being a black woman that is inaccessible to us. And we've felt like doing an entire album-by-album journey, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I mean, we've talked about this, that doing that without being able to capture and explain to the audience so much of that part of her art that it would do the audience a disservice. We might do that someday,

but we've sort of said we could only do that with someone who could represent and speak about that experience of being black in America and a black woman in America to help educate both the two of us and the audience to help contextualize her art, right? I mean, I think that's something that we've talked about. And yet, at the same time, like,

I'm a 40-something-year-old man who does a Taylor Swift podcast, so I'm super used to the territory and the dynamic of like, what the fuck are you doing talking about this music? Like, we're talking about one of the most relevant, prolific, accomplished, interesting dynamic stars and artists of our time. I learned this weekend that my father, also a white man of a certain age, but also someone who, you know, my dad is a classically trained musician and cares deeply about music, but also does not engage with popular music a ton.

My dad came up to me this weekend and was like, so I've been streaming the Beyonce album. And I was like, sorry? Like, there's also obviously a dynamic to this where it's essential to talk about this person. For sure. And to engage with this person who defined so much of the music that I listened to and fell in love with when I was growing up. in the same era that that happened with, a little bit before, but around the same era that that happened with Taylor Swift.

So it's just like, there are so many dynamics to talking about Beyonce, podcasting about Beyonce, listening to Beyonce, engaging with Beyonce. And this is a fun, I mean, the reason that we're doing it with this album is just because we wanted to engage with this pop girl spring thing. And she has one of the defining pieces of work of this period.

of pop stars, genreless stars, superstars, whatever we want to say, putting music out in this period, and that's just the way that it has worked. But there's something about it being this album that has a real, I mean, Calvoy Carter is a real, like,

in this essay, I will. Yes. Of a pop star statement. And the fact that it is so explicit in its thesis and in its ambition of sort of wrangling this music history, but also this American history, I think it almost like, it makes it sort of, it makes it explicit in a way that I think is, one, probably a little bit more tactile for us to get a hold of. And that's complicated, but also, I think, largely positive. And it's just really interesting.

So it's an act of, I'm glad you went there because that's sort of how we got here. and it is mostly an act of just sort of random timing, and it felt like, you know, we've developed this podcast and she had this album, and it's coming out now, and it's coming out as we have set out on this quest to engage with all of this music this spring. But I think there's something that sort of is exciting about it to me that this is the one that we get to sort of start with.

Yes. Look, I think one of the most important things that you and I have tried to do together from the beginning is to help others find an on-ramp to great music. right. We were, and we weren't early on Taylor, but what we tried to do there was try to communicate to the world that this wasn't just a girl writing songs about her ex-boyfriend, that she was one of the world's great all-time artists and business people, right? And that one direction wasn't a dumb boy band, that there's this guy, Harry Styles, who was emerging from it and sort of tracing that whole

thing. And I feel like this for us is the same thing, which is to try to celebrate an all-time great artist who has, in my view, created a project that is an on-ramp to Beyonce. And that's the fun part for me of the discussion today, which is that a lot of people are like, oh, she's gone and taken country music and made it her own. Maybe. But I listen to this album, and it feels like the brilliance of it is the entire social experiment and we'll get into the lyrics that she comes right out of the gate on American Requiem and tells you, can you, can you, you stand with me on this? It's a super controversial thing.

Like, Fox News is out there talking about cultural appropriation. Like, she has set into motion this incredible conversation about music. And for so long, you know, Left Sets is a lunatic. You know, Bob Left Sets wrote this very compelling piece over the weekend about this album where he said, we haven't been talking about an artist's music like this. this for so long. And it just is a fascinating experiment that is bigger than just the album itself, which we'll talk about today is great. But he's saying we haven't been talking about an album like this in so long, because I didn't, I'm not familiar with the left sits piece. When you say like

this, what does he mean? What he means is we talk about stars and in particular in pop music. We talk about the sort of image of, and the purpose. And the purpose of. And the purpose. personal life and all of the drama around an artist. But this is like the most substantive conversation that on mass we've had about music for some time. And to me, it's part of the brilliance of this project and from one of the great musicologists of maybe all time in Beyonce, the way that she uses her art to teach. She's a historian, but she's also generated a conversation about genre. She's generated a conversation

about the influence. Just so much that is meaningful that is bigger than just the album itself. And yet, just like you, at my Easter dinner last night, I had a lot of people who do not spin Beyonce records

who were sitting there listening to her cover of Blackbird. Blackbird fly. Man of a dark black night. To her cover of Jolene. Jolene. and talking about it. And then that being a jumping off point

to go get into a song like, you know, alligator tears. Something about those tears of yours. How does it feel to be a door? Or yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's part of the point of this whole project is I don't think it's Beyonce reclaiming country music, Although there's a part of the educational process of that,

I think she's reaching new people. She's using elements of country music to on-ramp people to Beyonce. And that is why that Instagram post where she said, this ain't a country record, this is a Beyonce record, resonates today three days after it came out so deeply with me. Beah! It's a really interesting sort of framing device for this because I think that's all right.

And that all definitely resonates with how I've started to experience this album. I do think there's an interesting, like one of the things, and I know we were talking about it in very tongue-and-cheek fashion with via Duolipa as the single as the exception that proves the rule. But I think one of the things that we're going to end up talking about a lot in the next month as we cover all of these albums and as Taylor has her album is just the weight on pop stardom in this era of it to have a narrative that's. extra musical.

Tell me what you mean by that. To have something that is... Extra meaning not more musical, but outside the music, there has to be a story. Yes, that there's a story that engages people

that connects people to the project on a scale that's larger than I'm going to create an hour, give or take of stuff you can play in your car and you're going to like the way that it sounds, which by the way, I don't, and actually not even by the way, I think this is in a lot of ways my point.

I don't say that with derision to that type of project. Like it almost becomes interesting in the inverse here where, as you said, we started this project with Taylor Swift sort of trying to create an on-ramp for people to experience her, not just as someone who made catchy songs and not just this young woman who had a lot of boyfriends or whatever, but as a business person, as truly one of the great artists of this era, maybe any era, and for all of the, you know, the substance of the things that we love about her. And I think for Taylor, her sort of her journey has in a lot of ways been getting taken seriously in that way. Yes.

Beyonce, I think, has a very different dynamic. And that's not to say that there's not a lot of gatekeeping, probably a lot more gatekeeping that has happened to Beyonce that she's had to overcome over the course of her career. But people take Beyonce very seriously. Beyonce has been, and whether that's the culture warriors making stuff up to tear her down or accuse her of ridiculous type of appropriation or whatever. Or whether that's, you know, the general conversation about her, it is one that is about. racism, American history, American politics, who belongs in what rooms or in what spaces, even on a sort of more trivial level, but still not that trivial. Like, do the Grammys represent systemic racism?

It's all very, like, it's very charged. And one of my central questions for this album is, like, how do you not let the music get bogg? down in the weight of that or overshadowed by the weight of that. Because even when people, and I think she's accomplished that, but I think it's hard because it's really hard once you, once you've set the conversation in those terms. Yeah, the Chinese and Russian Twitter bots are having a field day, like using this to create division. I mean, it is insane what's going on in the cultural landscape around this album. People are just jumping on it, right? Red versus blue, black versus white

old versus new I mean there's just so many easy lines to exploit and some of them are easy and some of them are easy and some of them are bad faith

some of them are genuinely like well but there are concepts at work here that are that carry a lot of weight in a way where it almost becomes hard

to sort of to just go yeah, yeah, like, what a bop, you know? Like, that's a jam. I just want to listen to that and dance. So I think we're going to try to do both, is my point. And it's an interesting sort of test case, I think. I mean, look, we're going to naturally miss context.

And the audience should go out and read other reviews and gather other perspectives, including there's a lot written about this album by pop music critics who are black women. Because you and I are going to be blind to some of the deeper, visceral meaning in this music by virtue of birth and life experience. But, like, great art is able to resonate in different ways with different people. And this does that. And I think that's what's going to be so fun about tackling this today. I think everybody can tell that we are both incredibly excited to engage with this because we've wanted to do it for a long time and also a little bit anxious. Yeah. For sure. So let's do it. Let's do it. It's a very rich text. And, you know, without spoiling too

much, I think, a really, really awesome body of work. So let's start, let's start with our biggest hit. And as with most of the albums that we review and cover contemporaneously, there may be, there may be a little bit that we're going to miss by virtue of the fact that most of these songs, they've only been out for a few days. Obviously, right now, Texas Holden is the biggest. hit as the first country number one for a black woman, also a number one song on the Hot 100 as well.

The lead single of the two singles that she released at the Super Bowl, sort of the more pop-friendly, upbeat, catchy song she put out. I think probably Texas Holden is going to last. as the most popular songs from this record. Do you do with that? Yeah, because I mean, 16 carriages did not, didn't have

quite the chart impact that Texas Holden has so far. Yeah. I think that's because people have had those songs for a little while. I think that's probably set in stone. Do you think there's anything else from this record that's going to sort of challenge Texas Holden in that way? I think two most wanted.

I'll be a shotgun rider till the day I die. I think the Miley Cyrus Beyonce track came out and people are listening and the streaming data is pretty heavy on it. And I think Tumost wanted may be the biggest hit. But if it's not, I think Yaya could still be the jam of the summer, Nora.

So I think there's a lot left to come on this. I mean, the Lakers came out to Yaya last night. Are you serious? Yes. I mean, I... I just, I think there's a lot of bullets in the chamber here to continue with a metaphor. Let's talk about this because I think like it's, it's, you know, again, this is sort of one of these vestiges of we started this pod doing albums that had been out for years and years and years and so you can sort of have a different type of discussion. Do we think, you know, this is...

This is the woman who once said, if I gave a fuck about streaming numbers, I'd have put lemonade up on Spotify. I feel as though this album is a play for mass consumption. Heck yeah, it is. In a way that some recent Beyonce records, for better or for worse, I think often for better, haven't been,

but I think it's both interesting and really effective. that with this album, I think she is putting herself out there in a way where she's not saying, I don't care. Take it or leave it. This is what I wanted to do. I think she is saying,

I want everyone in America to listen to this. I want everyone in the world to listen to this album. I think, yes, that's the point of this. She's doing all the things, isn't she? She, I mean, she's doing a lot of the things. Did you see her in Japan? She's in Japan.

Japan signing stuff. She's in Tokyo on release day, signing stuff, and girls are doing dance numbers in front of her. We haven't seen a lot of Beyonce out present sort of mingling with the people. That woman, that woman has a, has intent, you know, for good reason, because there's a lot of crazies in the world. We don't see her out mingling with the people very often. We don't see her out mingling with the people. We also don't see her like approximating mingling and accessibility online. Like Beyonce, Beyonce does not, there's no such thing as Bay lurking, you know?

Right, right. Beyonce does like, one single weird thing online, which is that like every once in a while, all of her accounts post a strange, happy birthday thing for like random celebrities. And that's the only, like,

that's the only sort of like analog form of social media presence. That's not about just her telling you her professional story and putting out the visuals and what she wants to about her own work. Yeah. But the fact... She's dropped albums with no notice before.

I mean, she's kind of the original, isn't she? Of just like random album drop. But it feels like she's doing the work on this thing. She's doing all the things. I mean, there's four vinyl covers. But just even the cowboy hat. The Jay-Z.

speech at the Grammys, whether or not that was contrived or not. I don't mean contrived, whether that was part of the plan. I don't want to embarrass this young lady, but she has more Grammys than everyone and never won album in a year. So even by your own metrics, that doesn't work. When we talked last week, I think you rightly pointed out that was Jay Z going rogue or not, which I very much believe it was. But I think it's part of an important part because his comments had an enormous amount of truth to them and the audience that he was giving them to has been sort of what's been in the way of album of the year

which by the way is referenced on this album. I love it so much. She does co-sign that in a way that made me rethink a little bit like did Jay-Z really go rogue? I do think that on her face when you look at that woman's face while her husband has grabbed the mic

she's not sure. Yeah, he is the greatest improviser of all time. We will be talking about Jay Z. The Super Bowl commercial with the Verizon Partnership song release, the Uber Horse thing, the track release, the collabs, again, Tokyo, she's probably, like,

she's doing the work around this thing. And it is with an intention. It just makes me believe that the point of this album is to introduce Beyonce to as many people who haven't appreciated or understood

her artistry because of the quote-unquote genre. that she came up in and has been classified in before. That, to me, is why it's sort of a joke that she's got a single Texas Hold'em is being classified as a country song. Okay. The Miley Cyrus track is a country song.

Okay. But really what this is, as the Linda Martel show tells us, is an experiment to tell us that there's no real such thing as genre. In theory, they have a simple definition that's easy to understand. But in practice, well, some may feel confined. And if you confine yourself or if you sort of use that as a box, it can be overly confining, not just as an artist, but as a listener. Well, also that, like, that what we think of as genre is not always an accurate historical representation

of what we sort of, of what signifiers carry with which genre. I mean, yes, I very much take your point that Texas Holden as a, you know, oh, it's a country song is, to paraphrase. I mean, it's a Beyonce song. And it's it's tying in a bunch of different genres including R&B and and pop in general has always been this sort of scavenger boundaryless thing. and there are ways in which it feels inadequate to describe Beyonce as a pop star. Right. But the purpose of popular music in a lot of ways is to pull threads from everything that can make something catchy and compelling and interesting. At the same time, I think it was very pointed that Texas Holden, which does sound like a country song.

Yeah. in ways that people are sort of used to. Also heavily utilizes the banjo. This ain't Texas. Which has roots as a West African instrument. And through the slave trade, was brought to America and eventually became something that was popular in the South and the West and then becomes a full- More Appalachia than Africa in the minds of most music fans. Right. And so we learn a version of history that's not always accurate. So I think the fact that she, that, you know, everything about a Beyonce project is careful and it is thought through. And she, you know, our intent, I think is her language in so many ways. And so everything like that happens with intent. And it tells a story. And that story is very much explicitly about what is a country song. What do we hear?

is a country song. What do we think when we think we're hearing a country song and how much of that is right and how much of that is wrong? And to get back to what brought us here, if your project is to correct that record, then I think it makes sense to say I am making some ways like a play for the center here. Yeah. Because I want as many people to hear this as possible. But I don't know that that was necessarily a given going into this album just because there have been plenty of chapters in her career, especially more recently, where it's sort of been, if you want to do the work and come over here and engage with this seriously, there is so much for you. But I'm not trying to reach as many people as I can. And I just, I think it's cool that that's a part of this

project. I don't know that I thought that that was a given. And I think it is very cool that it is. I believe that part of the art here is how this approach. is going to activate the dynamics in our country and around the world right now. I think that is part of the art, is putting out something that, as you pointed to before, could be positioned as controversial, as encroaching on someone else's history, musical territory, culture, but that is at the core almost genre, a, you know, blending and melting project and just seeing how people react to that,

seeing what the discourse that's happening on social media, the discourse that's happening on television around this. I mean, the New York Times had like six different pieces dedicated to this album when it came out. And again, Fox News screaming about cultural appropriation. Like, the media grabbed this thing and ran with it. And again, what a great moment that people are talking about the music and the approach as opposed to, you know, after six months of talking about Taylor and

Travis, which is, you and I love to do, right? But it has almost nothing to do with the music. It's fun to come back to something about that. Again, we will be disgusting, Jayzie. I'm just warning. Yes, we will. In fairness. But I want to know. So, I mean, some of this is a bit prognostication. Do you think that Texas Holden will end up being the biggest, hit from this album? Or do you see some promise in the Miley track Two Most Wanted? Yeah, yeah, or even, I mean, God forbid the Post Malone song, Levi's Jeans. We're also going to talk about Post Malone. Yeah. So this is, I mean, this is definitely your area of expertise more than mine. What I will say is that my sort of basic understanding is that Texas Hold'em at this point, which first of all is a great

song and a sticky song and a song that I'm still listening to a lot. For sure. Has a big head start and had the period of that and 16 characters being the ones that were out and you get a real head start that's hard to overcome there. But if we sort of broaden the question to do I hear hits on this thing? The answer to that is yes. And yeah, yeah feels right. We're going to talk about that song a lot.

definitely the Miley song was the Miley song was the first I will admit that I did not stay up to listen to this album because I have a problem where if I stay up until midnight and then the album comes out I will be up until four o'clock in the morning and I needed to get up very early the next morning and so I told myself that I was not allowed to do that. The first song that I heard was the Miley song. crazy anytime you like and just to see people and it just seemed like people were reacting to it. Yeah. And it seemed sticky and I just think they sound amazing together. So I agree with you that I think that could click. We talked about Yaya for a minute.

Ryan Teter and Beyonce collaboration strikes again. Ryan Teter did Halo, did XO. Did plastic hearts, did angels like you? So the two of them have had a very fruitful collaboration on some of her biggest songs. Yeah. Fruitful in its success. I do think in terms of a lot of the Beyonce songs, I like this one more than I like Halo. Yeah.

The landslide interpolation is interesting on this. I mean, there's a lot of interpolating going around. All over this album. And I think that's part of the point, right? And something that foundationally is done in country music. The Nashville scene, more than almost any other genre, has maybe not true, but historically has people who write songs and then people who perform those songs. And most of the big country stars that you would have heard of through the course of

time are generally playing and singing somebody else's songs. And she brings that very much full circle on this album in a lot of ways, even though it is her hand as a producer and as a writer that's guiding every track in partnership with others. Okay. I have like 19 questions for you, but I think we're going to get there. And we've also been, we've got to move on. We're going to do a nine-hour podcast. Basic answer to your question, I do think Texas Holden holds up as the biggest hit. But the, if I had to put a sort of second most likely, I think the idea of Yaya catching on as a sort of song of the summer, that feels very possible to me. I also think the Miley song has a lot of has a lot of wings.

But Yaya's song of the summer, I like that. I like that bit of prognosticating. on a perhaps related note, our next category is the best song. Before we name it, I want to ask you how you feel like you are seeing this album received, not in terms of how it's being positioned as sort of cultural commentary, not in terms of how many people are listening, how successful is it on a sort of commercial scale. But when you read reviews, talk to people, look on social,

how do you feel like Cowboy Carter is coming off in terms of how high quality of a piece of music it's being treated as? I think it's getting excellent reviews. I think the media. You do. I do. I mean, I saw a... I have read some reviews that I think are very lukewarm. Really?

The New York Times gave it a critics pick, but the review called it a bumpier ride than Renaissance Lemonade or Beyonce, her self-titled. Well, there was a review in the Washington Post that pooped on it. Yeah, there was a Washington Post review that was where it was not enjoyed. So the Metacritic, which is, you know, an approximation and not the most reliable, but gives it a 91, which is very high. So I think there is a lot out there. I mean, you know, Rolling Stone did the instant classic thing. Rolling Stone gives instant classics out like they're going out of style these days. Fair enough.

Unfortunately, that doesn't carry a lot of weight for me. The AP review was awesome of it. Pitchfork liked it. Yeah. The post had some good stuff. I am in no way trying to. I think there were also in those reviews that were a little bit more critical. I think there was really substantive engagement with the album.

there were interesting points made. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I'm just, I'm, however, I'm positing that out in the universe. You're seeing mediocrity in the, in the critics. There is not universal praise for the actual music and some elements of, I mean, that Washington Post review was founded largely on not enjoying. the fact that the record explores a lot of grievance

toward the Grammys and awards shows and her not bringing up album of the year. Does it? Does the, does the review say that? Does the album do that? No, yeah, no, I agree the review does that. But all the stuff in the post that was built around that

from the other music-related writers was pretty positive. I think they... That was their fair and balanced attempt. Who knows? Look, When you, when you, what about the social chatter? It's hard to parse right now because somebody is flooding the zone to create division.

I'm telling you, there is an incredible amount of accounts that when you pull them apart are super bot-ish that are criticizing this record. It's so crazy. It is really insane. Like this is a, this is a preview of what we're going to get during the election season in the U.S. in November. But it's going to be a million times worse, but you can just see the capabilities and how a number of these accounts are being hit. It's crazy right now. A number of these accounts are being disguised as legit, but you can sort of pull it apart and see. Anyway, I think when you get to what appear to be real human beings, of course, the beehive is bonkers for it. But I do feel like

some of the cultural critics that you see across social media are enjoying this album. And then just generally speaking, like, again, I'm hearing from a lot of white mothers that every song on this album slaps. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I...

Look, Renaissance became widely beloved through the tour. And maybe this is me just exercising some lasting confusion over an album that I really loved not quite hitting until it was accompanied by the tour. Maybe that was because of, you know, people are sort of anticipating visuals

that never really came until the movie and there's a lot packed up in that. So I may be reflecting the fact that I was a little bit on edge about like, are people going to, is this going to work? Is it going to hit? Is it going to, and I do think, I don't want to misstate the point. I think widely it's been, very well received.

I think the music on this album is excellent. I do think one thing that has gotten pretty universal, praise even feels like an understatement, awe feels more appropriate, is just the way that her voice sounds on this entire, and in so many different modes, I mean, she's belting, she's rapping, she's an opera singer, she's like, it's just...

Even the collaborations do that. with her voice. Like the back to back. Her and Miley? Yeah, but then contrast that with Levi's jeans. Like her and Miley sound great together. Don't forget, Miley did the Chris Cornell tribute. Like, she's not just a country artist, right?

Miley is another sort of genre bender, but there's something about that bass and the raspiness in her voice that anchors so well underneath Beyonce. Whoa. I'll be your shotgun rider. Till the day I Till the day I die Whereas

When you get to the next song Levi's Jeans Post Malone has this unexpected blend and smoothness With her That you could almost see At least for me With a little bit of tweaking

The untrained ear Might not have heard That Post was picking up The second verse Until a little bit until a little bit deeper into it. That it could all be Beyonce. I don't know what to do with Levi's jeans.

I'm sort of tickled by it. I can't, I don't know if it's just, I can't get past the fact that Post Malone has gotten on the Beyonce album and the Taylor Swift album in the span of a month. I know. It's strange. And I'm not sure that lyrically,

this song is anything other than like a cat call, but it's great. The dream is a part writer. He wrote Umbrella and, single ladies. So Jay-Z gets a writing credit on this thing? It's got a really unclear hyphen in his stage name. Yeah. What's that about? It's just a way to differentiate, I guess, but I want to know what Jay-Z wrote on this. The Dash Dream. Yeah. Who knows? Anyone has any insights and they want to let me know. This has been a long-term question of

mine, so I'm just using this moment. Nora Dash Prince-Ire. Post-blown must just be like a great hang. Yeah, I guess it is a very strange elevation of him. But on the other hand... No, Post Malone is great. I have a... Like, I don't know if I'm... Sometimes I think I'm a huge Post Malone fan. And then sometimes I'm like, that dude lives in Utah in a bunker with a bunch of guns. Like, what are we doing here? And I can't, I just like cannot figure out where I fall on that. But he was at the Super Bowl and I watched him just like stand around with a bunch of... security guards drink in a bud light for like an hour. And it seemed like a vibe. So my thesis statement is that Post Malone is just like a good hang. And that's why he's on a Beyonce album and a

Taylor Swift album within the span of a month. Absolutely no one asked what I thought about any of this, but I'm just going to tell you. There are some, it is, it is the most controversial. Fascinatingly, it is the most controversial collaboration on the entire album, isn't it? Parts of her fan base that are like, what are we doing here? Because it's, it's, kind of like cheap feels like too negative of a word because I like the song. I like the song. It's like a little bit muzac. Oh, come on. I think it's really good. It's already in a commercial. Sure, but it's great. Like I just think from a like sonically it's a great song. Again, it feels like a male, female cat call lyrically. There's not a lot of depth to it. But it is in some ways a wonder. analog for some of the less rich country music songs that have been hits before.

Like, it's not trying to do too much. It's just put it on. This is a male, female, back and forth. I don't have to worry. It is exactly the kind of song where you don't have to overthink it and you can just chill and have a bud light, like Post Malone likes to do. But again, okay, this is my point about the stakes of this record. being mostly wonderful and impressive, but every so often a little bit of its own type of prison,

because it's just really hard to fit in the post-Malone song. I don't know. I think it is a great, I think it is intentional in its fairly vapid lyrical statement when contrasted with the rest of the album. Everyone needs, I mean, yeah, it's like an interlude. The post-Malowan interlude. Go grab a beer. There are a lot of interludes on this album. I think people would be intimidated by 27 songs or whatever,

but there's not really 27 songs. There's not really 27 songs. It's really like a 13, 14 song album. I mean, it's a long, it's not a short album. And these are not, you know, these are not nothing against us necessarily, but these are not two and a half minute. No. songs for the most part.

But yes, the idea, the 27 is a little bit of a red herring. We're supposed to be talking about the best song of this album. And we've been talking about the post Malone song for a while, which I'm guessing is not what you think. It's not my vote. It's not my vote. What is your vote for best song?

So my, my, I think it's yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. What came in second place? So it's a really good question. I'll tell you the song that I loved the most the first time I listened through was Bodyguard. I just was like, that's a song that sounds cool as shit. Like the Fleetwood Mac thing I think really works.

The baseline is so cool. So sweet. I love hearing her do the sort of, she's not really rapping, but she's sing talking. Sure. And, again, I mean, I felt like it could be a Maroon 5 song in a good way. I don't know.

That's the first time since 2007 anyone's ever said that. But I think it's part of the freaking, like, brilliance of it. Yeah. No, I think it's cool. It's really, and the sort of, it's funny. The first time I heard it. I loved it musically. I just thought it sounded great.

I wanted to spend time listening to it. I wanted to play it in the car. I don't know why I keep saying play it in the car. I haven't been in a car in like weeks. But I loved how it sounded and how that made me feel. I did listen to the lyrics and get a little bit of like, the Beyonce Marital Bliss song like throws me for a loop. a lot because like once you start interrogating this woman's feminism, it's just like it is a,

it is an onion. And so I started doing that. But then the more that I listened to it, there's more of that sort of like jealousy, but also like lust and jealousy and that dynamic being part of a marriage or a relationship as a topic that she has for a long time explored does work for me a little bit more than just like, I'm going to take care of you, which is a message

that Beyonce loves to sing about and confuses me every time. Well, then she follows it with Jolene with the rewrite, and at the end, she's saying, I know my man's going to stand by me. So there's a connection sequentially between those two songs, though.

We will talk about this. So, yeah, Body. for me has has was sticky initially musically and increasingly has worked for me as as a storytelling exercise as well that song really grabbed me initially but i think the more the more that i listen yeah yeah just has so much to it i mean you've got nancy sinatra's boots you've got good vibrations Ladies Fuck it The fact that it is

one of the core thesis statements which you get laid out by Linda Martel about genre as way of introducing this song does make it feel like to her,

it's a very significant song on the album. I hope it is the song of the summer. And I do think for me that's my ultimate. winner. Well, it sounds like Lady Marmalade, doesn't it? Moka Chocolata. Yeah, we snapping, we shaken, we swimming. I love this song. I think you're right. You've caught onto something, which is that I think the things that she thinks are the most important messages and the best songs. She has an intro for. We'll talk about the choices that she made to have people intro

these different songs, in particular Dolly and Willie and Linda. I think there is a method to that. madness, as you say. There's always intent. I think the answer is yaw, yeah, yeah, too. But I want to put out just for fun with Willie Jones as an option. That song moved me. And that's the song that I find myself coming back to. I just love, love, love the stretch of ballads that kind of starts with Willie introducing Texas Holden for sure, but then Dolly's on Juleen. So there's that stuff. But it's really after spaghetti. When you get

alligator tears that's something about that I loved and then Willie introduces just for fun up next on the smoke hour

is just for fun by Beyonce you're welcome and I think again I think it's for a purpose and it starts this run of the ballads

then comes to Moswan and then Levi's jeans that ultimately builds through a couple of shorter when you go get your beer. And a yaya.

Like, I, I really, that stretch of the album to me is the home run. That's where I was like, holy shit. And I was moved by just for fun. I mean,

that's effectively side too, right? Which is B. Insay. Right. And, and again, I think Willie introducing it

is purposeful. And, uh, and there's just something, I don't know, there's just something very elegant, elegant about that song. I love the,

the time heals everything message. It's just, it's gorgeous. And Willie Jones is fantastic. Yeah. Was there anything else that, I mean, you've listened to my whole, my whole rant about bodyguard. How do you feel about that song? Yeah, I felt more interested in the interpersonal dynamic part of it than the music. I like the music. It didn't move me in the way that a few of the other songs that we talked about did. Because I got caught up in the bodyguard into Dolly P, into Jolene stuff, into then-daughter, where what? We're singing an Italian aria now? And just one after another, it's almost like these songs, I just had to, I needed more time to push pause and think about what I just heard. Oh, we're doing the radio dial. Okay,

who are we actually here? Oh, wow, Willie is actually going from, from, from, Sister Rosetta, Chuck Barry to Roy Hamilton. Like, what, okay, wait, what do these things mean? Then all of a sudden, boom, all right, we're in Texas, hold them. Here we go. And then bodyguard, like, what is she saying about her personal life? And Dolly P is, she makes the Becky with the good hair reference. Holy shit.

You know that hussy with the good hair you sang about? Reminded me of someone I knew back when. Like, wow, all right. There's just a lot of her own personal narrative in that small stretch. overuse the phrase rich text, but this is a rich text. Extremely rich text. Okay. That makes sense to me.

Anything else? No, from a great song. I love the book ending of American Requiem and Amen. I love the plea for mercy at the end. I love the fact that this album is a loop. And if you just put it on repeat, the last note is the first note. I adore that. Very James Joyce.

Sure. And I think if you don't really lyrically step back and listen to American Requiem, which, by the way, Stephen Still's got a writing credit on that because of the Buffalo Springfield song for what it's worth. It's a lot of talking going on. I sing my song. There's something happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear. Avin, how many checks is she cutting to how many people and how many estates and how many different, I mean, look, but you know what that is? What? That's a standard country album in Nashville. That's how it plays because a Tim McGraw record has songs written by tons of different people where he's covering.

And so there's a whole administrative song. writing publishing infrastructure in Nashville that's a massive cottage industry built on the way that these albums have been constructed. And I know that Beyonce has gotten shit in the past for having 20 writers on a song, but it ain't that different than the way that a lot of songs in that town, Nashville, that is, have been made historically. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, and also, look, Beyonce can cut the check. It's just, it's an interesting choice. It also kind of mirrors how this album feels like it was, put together where, as you just mentioned, there are so many different little individual

moments that took thought and care and perhaps somebody's individual voice, talents, interpolation, reference, ability, whatever it is. And it feels like she is such an artist in the specific that she does make the effort to say, I need this person's vocal for this line, or I want these for young black women in country to sing with me on Blackbird. And also we're doing black. Like, it's just her, the catalog. I mean, she is, she's a student of the game. And in some ways, the credits list here is a real flex of that.

I mean, she's got a daughter on Protector for Crying Outlet. Her daughter's getting a check, I assume. Yeah, that song made me a little weepy. The one, bye, please. Yeah, it's wonderful. I love the way she says projector, projector reminds me of Halo, Halo. I will be a projector, projector. There's something about that that felt like a mirror for me.

And again, she's that there's her daughter and pretty soon we're going to go into a little exploration of her personal life. and we'll talk about the themes of lineage here, but that's one of the wonderful themes of this album is sort of old to new. All right. Since we're already talking about the collaborators, let's define who we think is the most important of that list, although in some ways it does feel, you know,

this is in the eye of the beholder, and they're all important. But who stood out to you of the, several dozen people who had a hand in either co-signing or creating Cowboy Carter. You're going to have something that I think is a little bit more incisive and cutting on this. I stayed at 30,000 feet and said it's Willie Nelson. Because there's something about Willie introducing her songs and talking about the quality of them. Sometimes you don't know what you like

and someone you trust turns you on to some real good shit and that ladies and gentlemen is why I'm here that makes her this entire project to me unassailable it just connects

I mean Willie is the grandfather of this genre in the same way that Dali in many ways is the grandmother of this genre and so the two of them together not passing the torch, that's the wrong way to say it, but validating.

Exactly. And putting the stamp of approval and giving, not just that, hey, you should listen, but that this matters and that it's quality. That I just think insulates the project

intentionally from a lot of the incoming criticism manufactured or not that is about people being defensive, right? The emotional reaction to is my stuff being stolen. I mean, look, I was in Nashville last week, and a very politically left-leaning individual I was having a conversation with,

who likes Beyonce as an artist and loves country music, was feeling defensive and protective of this project, in part because, the powers that be at Sony have said these songs, this album is a priority. If you've got a Nashville-based artist right now and you're talking to Spotify and Apple or radio about getting songs on,

that's a second priority. Beyonce is the most important thing. And it wasn't a red versus blue, Democrat-Republican, black-white reaction. It really was. Nashville is a town that has lots of reasons why you might throw criticism at the way in which walls have been built there. But, hey, I'm being told what to do from the outside,

and I have a defensive reaction to that, that is as much about the way this record would be received as anything. And so breaking through all that, I think, as part of the art, the way that this thing is going to be received is a statement. She's putting it out there for all of us to watch the way that society and human beings of all different stripes and colors across all different genres, if you will, which is really a word for different kinds of people,

I think, as it relates to this art, to see how it's received. It's fascinating. And I think Willie helps set the tone there. KNTRY, Texas Radio. You turned into KNTRY Radio, Texas, home of the real deal. It's also funny that she got him to say that. Yeah, it's funny that she got her to say that.

It's also, I mean, it's so, he's just so... He's so Willie. I mean, high as a kite. We've got a new Casey Musgraves album where she's like, oh, I'm not smoking as much pot these days. Willie Nelson begs to differ. Some people don't give it up in their old age, Casey. A lot of talk about smoke from Beyonce across this album. Yeah, quite a lot of smoke in my hair, cigarette smoke on this album.

Cleanse me Holy Trinity from this marijuana smoke smell in my hair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. smoke of multiple kinds. But, like, in particular, I was like, oh, okay, sure. Whatever you want to do, Beyonce and Willie and whoever else. Yeah, no, and I don't even hear it so much as like insulation.

It's more, to me, I hear it more as kind of guns drawn. Come at me if you want, but I've got Willie Nelson on my side. So you better get used to the idea that you're coming after Willie Nelson too. That's right. Which is just cool. It's a cool flex. I actually kind of went 30,000 feet too here. I think that's the point.

And Dolly and Willie definitely as co-signers carry so much of, of, yes, how she's positioning this album to be received by people who are open to it and excited about it or a little bit more resistant. I also think that they just create. she has such an aesthetically acute mind, and they just make it feel, they make the whole thing feel like a Western or like what we think of

when we think of old-timey country radio or the South or the West. It's just all of those, you know, Dali's saying, bless her heart, all of those signifiers are so note-perfect. and they deliver that, Beyonce delivers that by roping them into this project. I did ultimately give the nod to Linda Martel.

Okay. Who's also in that sort of role, just because I feel that of, you know, they're all in some ways doing the same thing. But I do think that she, you know, the more I listen to this record, the more Yaya as a song really, really stood out to me. Yeah.

Both as a piece of music and also I think as, as the thesis statement to an album that is full of thesis statements. And I think that she, you know, she's also one of the co-signers to the album as a project, but she also, as someone who's considered the first really commercially successful black woman in country, she gets to also. Tell us exactly what this is all about. And tell us exactly what the point of this record is and what the point of this project is

and what matters about it. And so to me, that stood out. But it stood out from an album and a list of collaborators where the point is actually not to single one person out and say, oh, this person contributed more, this person contributed less. The point is that she brought an army with her. And there are people.

She did. But I like your pick because you're right that Linda's the one who's sort of twice on the record says the main point. It's first when she says genres are a funny little concept, aren't they? Genres are a funny little concept, aren't they? And then it's introducing Yayo, where she says it stretches across a range of genres, and that's what makes it a unique listening experience. This particular tune stretches. across a range of genres, and that's what makes it a unique listening experience.

Right. And there's a little bit of color by number there and getting Beyonce as an artist, but that's sort of the point of this album is to help sort of the uninitiated paint by numbers to get Beyonce. Yeah, and I think that I just, I have a lot of, I really think that's, that's not work that Beyonce is required to do, right? She can make any album that she wants to. I think it's really cool that that's the album that she wanted to make and that she kind of dared to do that.

I think that's pretty sick. There's a lot that we actually have to learn about this record from a sequence perspective, isn't there? Because Renaissance was maybe supposed to be that. Like Renaissance was maybe, you know, she was going to drop this and it was going to be this, you know, incredibly strong statement about, yes, feminism, but also sexuality and an embracing of her own sexuality, but also a statement on how all shapes and sizes of sexuality are welcome and all

the queer black artists who created house music and disco. Right. And the fact that that didn't become immediately digestible or sort of self-evident to the listener maybe affected the way that she took this album to market because she really is connecting the dots for the listener in the way that the colors on Renaissance

where you sort of if you really listen closely she's like you know she's creating a flag through her lyrics right that's something that just it took a lot of peeling back layers of the onion to understand on Renaissance

to get that bold expression of black female pride and her own sexuality, this record, it feels like she's just telling you exactly what the point is and then watching how you respond and that the response is part of the art. It's possible, too, that part of that has to do with the sequence that she wanted to release these albums in

because what she said is that she wanted this one to come out first. That's why I think we don't totally know. Like, there's so much more. How was this record? I mean, for crying out loud, Dolly talked about having Beyonce record Jolene in 2020, I think, and then was asked about it again in 22. So the timing of when she decided to do what actually matters to the context of the song. Well, and she says that she's been working on it for around five years in some way, shape, or form.

The Grammy's Daddy Lessons experience, which seems to be... CMA? Did I just say Grammys? Yes, the CMA's Daddy Lessons experience. Seems to be a big part of the genesis of that, and that was 2016, so even further back than that. A lot of that, it's funny now that we know sort of what this looks like and how Cowboy Carter has come out,

because you can see in some of the Renaissance visuals, like even just some of the vertical art that accompanies the songs on streaming. They kind of give, once you've seen this, You kind of see, oh, maybe that was a Cowboy Carter visual that got repurposed for Renaissance because Renaissance had to come first. And Beyonce, when in this statement that Parkwood put out when this album came out, said that she initially wanted this one to come first, thought this one was going to come first. Right. But then because the pandemic came, she just, in her words, she felt like she needed to put out a dance album.

and that an album that people could dance to felt more appropriate in that moment so she switched it up. I, you know, and no shade in this, I think there's probably more to the story than that. Sweet Honey Buckin talks about album of the year. That was recorded and written

after Renaissance, which she... Right. She didn't get that Grammy in February of 2023. So there was still recording and writing that was happening around this. So sure, the conceptually she maybe was thinking this came first, but this has been a living, breathing thing that clearly was being created into 2023. And look, we'll talk about Act 3 at some point is in that sense,

not done yet. And we'll probably see... the sort of interaction of all of these records that have been a part of this process of sort of reclaiming these genre exercises interact more and more. I do think, I mean, it was always sort of funny that the hat and the horse were such a big part of renaissance.

The disco aesthetic is what really clicked for people through that. But it is funny to realize now like, oh, yeah, it all kind of, it kind of works. I do think also just Renaissance, even though it didn't quite click on the charts initially, Renaissance was always going to be the right album to start, to go back out and go back out on tour with. Yeah.

It's an album that you have to listen to headphones, in headphones to get it, because there's so many layers and the baselines are so important and the way that things build, it just, you can't get it on first pass. and that's the polar opposite of this album, which you can get a lot of it on first pass. You can't get all of the history.

You've got to do your homework to, I think, really absorb what it means. But musically, Levi's Jeans is an example that is the Shining One. Like, you can listen to that the first time. It's better than you think. It's better than you think. I'm simply not sure it is, but I'm tickled by the fact that this. song has made such an impression on me.

Every single album Post Malone. Let's do it. Not happening. Honestly, would be fun, but you know what's more fun since we're talking about songs that maybe you don't think

are the best, is our most difficult part of the pod. What would we cut? Okay. Are you ready for what I'm... Sometimes I know what will be my hottest to take of a pod. And I knew this one immediately. I'm going to kick your ass, Jolene.

Simply does not work for me. Wow. Wow. That is a song that is like one of the most covered songs of all time. And the reason that it resonates with people is because that is a cutting and rare and profound statement of personal vulnerability. The, like, if we're talking about thesis statements, the thesis statement of Jolene is just because you can. Jolene, Jolene, please don't take him just because you can.

And that's what makes Jolene different from a lot of, you know, infidelity ballads. It's what makes it special. it's what makes that a particularly resonant song in the history of those types of songs, but just music in general. So you don't want no heat with me, Jolene. So you don't want no heat with me, Jolene. Just doesn't, it's the antithesis of the song.

It doesn't make any sense. But since it's all been done from a position of desperation, why not come at it from a position of strength? Because it's not interesting. Because then what's the point? Then it's like, okay, if, you know... I know my man's going to stand by me.

I mean, first of all... What's the point? The point is she's telling us about her personal relationship in this song. Well, does history exactly hold that up? I'm not quite so sure, but I'm glad everything's going well now. What does work for me is definitely the JZ means.

and definitely I can easily understand why you're attracted to my man. Yeah. Do you know what I'm talking about? People just putting that over like a weird picture of Jay C being like Beyonce. No one wants Jay Z.

Yeah, Jay is not Becky with the good hair. So I suppose on that, like I'm grateful for the discourse. Yeah. But I have to say I would, I, the first time I listened to the song, the second time, every single time. And still, I just was like, I love that Dolly wanted this to happen. I love the connection between the two of them.

I love the fact that Dolly Parton, godmother to Miley Cyrus, right? And Miley, Goddaughter to Dolly. Like, I love that they're both on here. I think all of that is so cool and so great and so interesting. The Dolly P intro is awesome. Hey, Miss Honeybee, it's Dolly P. I love how she references. I love the Becky reference.

I love the Becky reference. I love the bless her heart. Beyonce's Jolene landed with an absolute thud for me. And that's, I speak my truth. Okay. I will give you your truth. I think those two, the Dolly P intro and Jolene to get cover together are important. If you separate the Dolly P intro, I can see how just on a standalone basis with no context, you'd be like, eh, I didn't really need this. But I think together, these are a statement

on the current status of her relationship with her husband. And that's why the Becky with the good hair reference or hussy with the good hair is intentional and important. And it's a personal statement from her about her relationship with you. And it's context for he's got five co-writes on this album. She is, she speaks about him through the course of of a number of other songs across this record. And it's just an interesting sort of life update that gives you a little bit more insight into what she's maybe singing about for me.

I agree with you that on a standalone basis, it is not one of the songs that I will run back a bunch. But I also just like, I'm personally happy for them, and that's great. The message of Jay and I are doing great, and you're a desk. expert girl for, you know, and you're never going to be able to get anything on me. Like, I just don't care about that. I can't. I think it's a weird place to go.

But I think, look, will you run back Blackbird? Blackbird singing in the dead of night. Yeah. You will? Yes. Like, more so than the original Beatles or the Crosby stills in Nash version. Blackbird singing in the dead of night. Take these sunken eyes and learn.

Yeah, probably. Or at least as, as much, I would put that on a, you know, I'd put that on a dinner party playlist. I'd listen to it in a moment when I felt, you know, contemplative or something. Yeah. I would too. I just think that the point isn't so much, is this a good cover to me? As it is on Blackbird, she's elevating the voices of women on a song that was actually about the original Civil Civil rights movement. She's elevating the voices of four black country female artists. And Jolene, I think she's doing the same, which is taking, again, taking a handoff, taking a boost from Dolly as sort of validating her foray into instrumentation and quote-unquote genres that otherwise might have been walled off to her. That's great. I just, you know, that I'm all, that I'm all

with and here. Just don't ever play it for you again. I got it. But again, like, the point of that song is its helplessness. Okay. And... She was able to pivot it.

But she didn't pivot it anywhere interesting. And be honest... And part... Look, I'm holding her to her standards. But if you, like, think about a song, like, ring the alarm. Which, like, to me, is one of the all-time Beyonce songs, all-time sort of evidence of her ability to take something that is like

interesting and challenging and complicated and weird and make it translate to a mass audience, to a pop music audience. That is a song about like rage and jealousy because someone's going after her husband that she does through this like very kind of almost like ugly materialist lens where she's just like pissed as fuck that if this woman gets in her house with her husband

she gets to wear her clothes and wear her jewelry and it's like such a layered and weird and kind of daring take on what it would feel like to be someone with Beyonce's

power and money and resources and relationship and feel simultaneously threatened in that but also still be Beyonce with all of the power that comes with that and also I think is honest

in the sense that she's sort of taking it out more on the woman than she is on Jay but at the same time she's not really saying you're desperate, you're terrible, I hate you. She's kind of saying if this woman gets to wear all the clothes I bought myself because my husband cheats on me with her.

It's just, it's textured and slared and it's interesting. And one of the things that I think is an enduring theme for Beyonce is her relationship to monogamy, like to traditional marriage for someone. someone who deals with a lot of themes that are political and who's gotten a lot of due praise for, you know, embracing herself as a public feminist before a lot of pop stars did that. She has a very interesting take on monogamy and heterosexual marital bliss. And Jolene was a real opportunity.

to do something interesting there. And I think she absolutely let it, let the pitch go by. And there we go. Well, that is a hot take. Even more hot because of all of the cover songs on this record, you're going to cut Jolene, but you're going to keep O Louisiana.

Is she on helium with this song? What happened here? It's a Chuck Berry song. and maybe the point was to, there was a shade, I need more context on why this is here. I just, it's short,

she's sort of singing like a young girl and we know that Chuck Berry, uh, yeah, there's some not great stories about Chuck Barry to say the least. But was this supposed to be an undercut of him? Was it just a transition? I don't think so. I did, yeah, it's a good question,

but I, I, I will say that I didn't. here that way. Okay, so why is she on helium singing this song? I don't know. It's a really good point. I feel similarly. My only thing is like, it's, well, okay, it's 52 seconds long. I can't take it. Okay, that's fine. Of the Dolly songs, I mean, how do you feel about Tyrant? Tyrant, every time I ride, make it look so good. I like it. Okay. I mean, there's a lot. of Prince's seven in this. Yeah, I think it's cool.

It's just, it's like, it's sexy. It's a sexy song. Yeah. Okay. Is there anything else that you would think about cutting? Flamenco is mad for me. Yeah, I feel the same. I mean, I tried to...

But it's short. It's short. Like, it's a minute and 40 seconds. Now, again, uh, twice as long as, Louisiana, which apparently got Nathan all riled up. I just don't know what it's doing here. I wonder if it, not to spoil, but, you know, we have our next album appetizer category. And I just wondered if she really wanted some Chuck Berry Easter eggs in there because of all of the genres that have been speculated as the potential sort of bedrock for act three.

the most common and the one that I think makes the most sense would be if she delved into the relationship between blues music and rock and roll and the origins of rock and roll. So I wondered if just like, and I think people, I think even people who don't spend a lot of time digging into music history,

musicology, sort of understand Chuck Berry as a figure in that story. But why are they healing? damn it. I don't know. Look, take it up with the dream. Okay.

Be sure to ask about the hyphen. It's an interesting point on next album appetizer because I heard the back part of this record potentially being more of a lead-in to Renaissance

than anything else. And that's why the sequence for me is really interesting because I think Riverdance, A Reiko-right, by the way, feels like an intro to Renaissance to me. It brings back in.

It's sort of teasing the electronic dance stuff, bounce on the shit. Like, there's a lot in there. And even in Tyrant, which is the most genre, or one of the biggest genre blenders on the album, you can hear some shades of Renaissance in there. So I, if this, in fact, was supposed to come first,

the next album appetizes that I hear are more out of those songs. I mean, yeah, that's a good point. How did you, Riverdance, I have to say, I would never say that we should cut it. I like Riverdance. also in particular, the fact that it's her acrylic nail doing some of the percussion is just cooler than anything and I'm obsessed

with it. Yeah, which Daly did. Yeah. Mama's in a children's out of short and brick. River dance hasn't I have not quite connected with Riverdance, I guess.

Same for me. It didn't. It's not something that I'm going to spin back a bunch, but I enjoy it. I like the interlude before it. Soft kisses on some fan lips. It's yours, maybe you can crash here. Come here.

Desert Eagle, it's sort of, it's this funky-ass interlude that kind of Riverdance builds out of. So I appreciate it on the record. It's a little bit jarring. I mean, again, I think here we are, we're through a bunch of the journey. of this album, and to me it is, is she now taking some of the people who are hooked and saying, I do more than just this?

Yeah. Here's something you haven't tasted before. That makes sense. Can I ask you a question? This is not related to any category that we're talking about right now, but I just need to, I need to ask this question. Yeah. I enjoy, I really, I like Two Hands to Heaven. I cannot get over that I just

Are we doing Are we doing fast and furious references? Is this the too fast, too furious reference in the title? I don't think it is. It doesn't have anything to do with anything, but I just can't. I can't get it out of my head. You can't get it out?

No. It's the aesthetic of the two everywhere. That's all. No, I get, yeah. I just, Yeah, I can't even say the title without doing it in the... Without thinking too fast or fierce. I can't say it without doing it in that cadence, two hands to heaven.

Fair enough. I just needed to say that out loud. I'm glad we got that off your chest. This has been every single album. Got to go. Nathan's going to go listen to Levi's jeans some more. So you're cutting... I'm cutting.

You're just cutting O Louisiana. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think there's, and I do that intentionally because I think there's purpose and intent to every single thing that she's put on here. And I know there's purpose and intent to O. Louisiana. But I just don't need to hear it again. I know there's purpose and intent to O. Louisiana.

I'm not sure there's purpose and intent to Levi's jeans, but I enjoy it. So I don't want to cut it. Thank you. Yeah, I'll stay on my, on Jolene Island. So we also have notable Easter eggs and conspiracy corner. Do you have anything here? For me, the Easter eggs are all in the lineages, this theme of lineage. Her father, as she talks about him, and I'm like my father.

They say I'm not like, but I am like my father. They keep saying that ain't nothing like my father, but I'm the further. thing from quiet boys and altars. Her daughter on the record, but then also connecting the old greats to several new ones, right? Between Willie and Linda and Dolly to the women on Blackbird

and some of the other artists who appear on this album, who are up-and-coming country folks, Shabuzi. And the connection between Becky with the good hair and Jolene. Sweethe Hardy Bucket is also awesome just because you mentioned Shibuzi. Yeah. Well, and that's like really three songs in one. But to me, the Easter eggs are all in this sort of lineage connection through her life, through music, through history that happens across the fabric of this record. Okay. Oh, but here's mine. In the Jolene intro, which ironically, like, I guess it's, it's like cheap of me to say that we should cut Jolene because I will not cut the Jolene intro. I will not cut Dolly P. Like, I need a lot of things from that.

So she calls Beyonce Honeybee. Hey, Miss Honeybee. Which is also what Lady Gaga called her in the telephone music video. I'm sure you want to do this, honeybee? What do you mean, am I sure? And we've been getting these, there have been telephone Easter eggs all over the place. So I'm just saying, I'm just saying, where's Gaga? Where is she?

The fan base seemed unhappy that Gaga, was there, was not there and Miley was or Gaga was not there and Post Malone was. I'm thrilled that Miley's there. I'm just, and I'm not, I would not say that I'm unhappy about this because I think there's still

plenty of potential for her to show up. Fair enough. But the fact that that context exists is something that people are hyped about, people have speculated about, and that, that Dolly says that

It just, I was interested. Okay. I don't know, you know, having been through the Renaissance experience, I don't want to get out over my skis on whether or not we're going to get a ton of visuals. Right. Here. However, if that were to take place, the Jolene saga, for whatever it has and lacks and whatever, it is a rich text.

it's cinematic in ways that could be right for something like that and there's a little bit maybe of of the aesthetics of the the aesthetics of that

the aesthetics of that telephone video could kind of play here so I just I'm just calling it out I'm still wondering where's Gaga and that intro definitely made me think that what's your peak Beyonce well can I just say one more thing

before we get there. Yeah. Just in case anybody needs to hear this, Taylor Swift is not singing backup vocals on this record. Thank you. Thank you. There's so much bullshit on the internet about this album. It is an interesting moment in time.

Like, when the Miley song leaked, I was like, wow, okay, we've crossed the threshold. You could convince me that this is AI generated right now. I didn't know if it was real or not. Which she brought up in her, in the release, the statement with the album, which, you know, that's such a controlled way of communicating that I'm not necessarily, like, she's saying exactly what she wants to,

but it's just interesting that in that moment when she's like, okay, what do I want to say to people about this album right when I'm putting it out? She makes a point about all of the acoustic instrumentation within the context or by putting it in relief against AI is affecting the music industry in so many different ways. and therefore we wanted to make this album that, you know, it sounds like the world, it sounds like the outdoors, you hear the wind, you hear horse hooves, you hear real instruments played by real people.

Yeah. Which I just thought was an interesting thing to really put a, to underline and really put a fine point on. And that's another interesting example in the context of the same dynamic. of hearing that song when it leaked and not knowing if you could trust it. Well, I didn't.

I did, but I don't know what to believe anywhere. I just think it's fascinating that we're at that moment where album leaks might be fake and you'll start to see artists themselves maybe even put those out to throw us off the scent.

By the way, that's my peak, Beyonce. I mean, I think my peak Beyonce was all this buildup, country album, country, Beyonce going into country, and then the state, this ain't a country album, it's a Beyonce album. Yeah.

And sort of jujitsuing the hype to introduce Beyonce the artist through a more accessible medium. I don't think she's reshaped country music. I think she used country as a vector to introduce more people to Beyonce. And that's the brilliance of her as an artist. Well, so maybe this, that dovetails nicely with peak Beyonce, which is, I couldn't decide if I wanted to do the hat or the horse. I think I'm going to give it to the horse because the horse is named Chardonnay.

And that's just pretty awesome. But take first. Look, there's a lot of conversation around Beyonce right now about where are the visuals? Where are the visuals? She's trained us for the last several cycles that not only is she one of the most inventive and talented and interesting pop stars, music stars of this or any generation,

but she is a maestro visual artist. And those two things work in such tandem. But for Renaissance, until some would say the Renaissance movie, although I think a lot of fans still felt like that wasn't quite the same as making music videos. And then with this so far, there's, you know, there are lyric videos, but no visuals in the sense that she had kind of trained her audience to expect. So there's a lot of people saying, where are the visuals, where are the visuals, where are the visuals? To me, and I'm not saying that it's not fair to sort of want real, tight, produced, concise music videos or something in that vein. But to me, the visuals are all over the place.

The visuals are just what she's doing in her life. The visuals are showing up to the Grammys in the hat. The visuals are the clothes that she's wearing, what the album cover looks like. Right. The fact that the horse, so she's riding... The giant flag. She is riding a Lip-is-on-or... Not stallion.

You know, the stallions do have a specific show. But she's riding a Lip-is-on-er horse, which is a breed of horse, that... when they're born, their hair is all black. And as they grow up into adult horsies, they become white. Which mirrors the statement that she's made about the history of country music. And just the fact that this, like, so first of all, the fact that this woman is thinking about the breed of the horse and being like, what statement can I make about the breed of the horse? Yeah. It's just like, who does that?

And is such a, to me, a product of like her brilliance and just the way that she thinks about every little detail. The fact that the horse's name is Chardonnay, C-H-A-R-D-O-N-N-E-I-G-H is really wonderful. I really like that so much. But also, and this to me is, you know, this is the story of the hat. this is the story of what really makes this peak Beyonce to me, is that not only is she telling this really thought-through story about the making of the album, the history of this genre that she's experimenting with, but commenting on and tying herself into the fabric of in a very intentional way,

it's also cool. The fact that she is able to connect her personal story with a story about the history of music, the history of America, and also connect that to something that is incredibly zeitgeisty right now, which is Western aesthetics, country music is huge. and do it in a way that is, it really is academic.

And yet it's also so trendy is really the word for it. It taps into something that is incredibly popular and aspirational and at the center of culture in a number of ways that Beyonce helped seed, but is also taking part in and benefiting from and co-opting in a good way is something that I'm not going to say that she's the only person capable of doing this, but the pool is incredibly, incredibly small and she is the best at it. And I think that just the hat and the horse do that for me. So giddy up, Chardonnay, you are peak Beyonce. Let's get Chardonnay in the Derby.

Chardonnay is probably not going to be in the derby, but we're happy for Chardonnay. Chardonnay is going to get a lot of treats, and she's very beautiful, and she's a good horsey. Best lyric? Will you tell me what you had? Yeah.

I had American Requiem. I mean, I think that it is just everything from, can you hear me? I said, do you hear me? Can you hear me? Will you hear me? To the end where she's saying, can you stand me?

And then can you stand with me? The whole lyrical part of this record says to me, there's lots happening in America right now. There are all kinds of issues and challenges. I'm going to do something over the next hour and eight minutes or whatever. can you hang in there and can you make it safe

as it was not in 2016 for me to venture here? Can we do this together? And there's something very challenging and beautiful about that. I think the entire intent of the art is wrapped up in those lyrics. Yeah.

So that's a really interesting one and I'm glad you went there because I thought about American Requiem with this too. In particular, it's a lot of talking going on while I sing my song. Right. Just because I've really found, I've really found the idea of her engaging with and grappling with how to sort of exist in this moment as, as an artist, but as one of the artists who,

and this is by her own doing, has put herself on a plane that feels, as I said at the beginning of this pod, sort of extra musical and bigger than that, but also still being so, I mean, what do we get from this album more than she is a student of the game, that she knows all of these references,

that she's steeped in this musical history, and that that is what she really wants to elevate, comment on play with change. And to hear her address those dueling dynamics between the outside conversation and the inside conversation, I found really interesting. I also, again, this is so hypocritical of me because for all my Jolene issues, Dolly P was like great for me. And this isn't even Beyonce.

but I'm just glad someone said bless her heart on this album. Bless your heart. That to me was necessary and I'm glad it happened. I thought you were going to say, look at that horse. Chardonnay. I love her. It's a look, for those of us who are somewhat reformed horse girls, it's been a good couple of years, I got to say. It's been good times for horse girls.

It's been good times for all of us. Bella Hadid's at the rodeo. I mean, come on. All right, let's grade this album. You first. And a hush falls over the room. No, I'll go. I mean, this album is going to win album of the year.

And you think it's over. You think, like, half of the point of Pop Girl Spring is like, holy moly, it's going to be a stacked, stacked group. I think part of the art of this whole album is whether it wins album of the year. not. It may, it may not, but the intent of it, the quality of it, the campaign around it, the extra musical stuff around it is all designed to get the most Grammy-awarded artists of all time, the Grammy for album of the year. That is separate than the grade of the album. I give the album an A,

because as a piece of art, it is inspiring conversation around so many fascinating things that permeating our society right now. But it is also really fucking fun to listen to. And it's been a long time since I can remember hearing an album that generated this much chatter and where the dialogue around it was part of the art and part of the intent. So I think it's a brilliant piece of art and I give it an A. I also believe she's going to win the Grammy for album of the year. I think it is over.

And if she doesn't, that too will be part of the art because it will have been people saying, I cannot stand with you. I can't stand you. And that will be a statement in and of itself. It would be so crazy. I mean, it has to win. It's almost, it's almost, and obviously,

if she wants to win album of the year, she more than deserves it and she should win album of the year. It's almost cooler if she doesn't. It is. But I think she will and I think she should. But there is something, weird about the fact that, like, the statement almost, like, feels stronger. But that's, that's probably giving a little bit too much to the Grammys.

So we're all going to be okay. Um, look, I would have given it an A, but the Jolene thing. No, I'm just kidding. I give it a. It's great. It's a great. It's, it's, it's, I'm in awe of it. I mean, it's, it's thoughtful and it's complicated.

And we can, you know, we've been here for an hour and 40 minutes at this point. Like, having a conversation that to me feels like we could go on for three more hours and just have so much to dive into. But it's also, mostly, I think the caveat to this would be, you know, some people are going to have trouble with the 27 songs of it all and with dealing with the interludes and having to sit there and digest that. I think it is so worth doing. But most of the songs on this album, they're listenable and they are catchable. and they are catchy. And they expand sort of the Overton window

of what we expect from songs on the radio, which has always been my favorite thing about Beyonce, is that she can do these things that are weird and complicated and historical and archivists and academic, but she can do them in a way that reaches people and that almost, you know, I don't like to think of myself as, as this way in a listener, and I bet a lot of people who are taking the time to listen to a

hour and 40 minute long podcast about Beyonce probably don't fall into this. But it's a little bit of a trick sometimes because she gets people to hear things that they wouldn't otherwise hear. And this feels like one of the ultimate exercises of her career in doing that. And it is very rare. It is very rare for an artist who is this established, has been doing it this long, has made this level of fortune to be so invested in the art to turn in something like this and to go win Grammy of the year. It really is. She's 42 years old.

That's not old. But a lot of the Pop Girl Spring that we're going to be talking about are women in their 20s and early 30s. And her attention to detail, her commitment to the craft is fascinating, given where she stands in her life. And again, all of that is part of the texture of this excellent album. Let's get Chardonnay her Grammy. I think that would be good. Ye fucking ha. Yehaw.

Yeha, Nathan Harvard. All right, this has been every single album. What a great way to kick off the album review portion of Pop Girl Spring. And we've got a lot more coming. I'm Nora Pinciotti. As always, he's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you so much to Kaii McMullen for producing this episode. We will be back when we cover Casey Musgraves' as deeper well.

Thank you for listening.