Every Single Album - 'Daughter From Hell' | Every Single Album: Gracie Abrams

Episode Date: July 23, 2026

Nora and Nathan break down the third studio album from Gracie Abrams. They talk about how the singles—"Hit the Wall" and "Look at My Life"—differ sonically from the rest of the album (1:00), the obvious Aaron Dessner and "folklore" sound on many of the tracks (22:22), and whether or not this album is missing Abrams's past writing partner Audrey Hobert (44:30).Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan HubbardProducer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Hulu original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus, starring Emmy Rossum. Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July 27th, only on Hulu on Disney Plus. Wendy's 99 cent Frosty is back. And Frosty farmers couldn't be happier.

Made with Canadian dairy, they grow up cool, creamy, and mighty thick. It's farm to Frosty. Get a small 99 cent Frosty until longest second. And participating Wendy's Texas Extra. Welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Princeati. And as always, I'm joined by my pal Nathan Hubbard. To speak at length about a Gracie Abrams album for, I believe, the second time in the history of this podcast, correct?

At length? Well, it's a do a full album. Was that a Freudian slip? Do you think this is a long album? It is a long album. It's... 56 minutes. Yeah.

It's 16 songs not including the two bonus tracks. Yes, the two additional bonus tracks, which are up on iTunes. And also were performed on the Secret of Us tour, which... it makes them an interesting data point in whether or not there were sort of different iterations of this album or whether or not it ended up being what it was initially conceived as. Tell me more about that. Is that because we have songs that seem to be made very early on and then some that clearly have come of late and that it just sort of is a collection of songs that she's written since the last time that she put out an album

as opposed to like a purpose-driven thing? How do you think about it? First of all, we're speaking about Daughter from Hell, which is Gracie Abrams' third record, which came out at the end of last week. I am not sure I know the answers to those questions, but they are some of the questions that I have centrally, having spent some time over the weekend with this album, having seen. seen some of the chatter around what happened to these songs and then seeing her release them as bonus tracks, they are stylistically, I think a little bit different than the majority of this

album. The two bonus tracks are called Out of Nowhere and Love Letter. And I think by virtue of the fact that these songs had been performed on tour and people were sort of aware of them and they have this more electronic than most of the actual record but like sort of dark pop vibe

I think I had bought in a little bit more to the idea that like that's what the sound of this album was going to center on much more so than it actually does. Now it's not entirely surprising I think though there are

some new textures to the sound and the instrumentation and the production for her on this, but it still feels pretty grounded in Aaron Destner's wheelhouse. And so it's not that I think this is a shocking sound for her, but it is a little bit surprising to me how quiet of a record it is primarily and how much it turned out to be like that relative to the singles and those Bonix tracks, which were sort of... out there. But that's a little bit of a specific thing. I think, I wonder if we should start a little

bit more generally in, in terms of your listening, your receptiveness, your overall vibe. Tell me, the Nathan Hubbard hit the wall experience, daughter from hell experience. Yeah. Well, I, well, I think it, I think it flows from what you just said, which is, first of all, I like this album and there are songs on this album that I really like. And in fact, there are songs that out of sequence, in other words, when you're not, when you pick out individual songs and just listen to them, as opposed to going start to back, that I like even more as standalone entities instead of in the flow. And we can talk about what some of those are. But I don't think there's anything new here musically. I think it is much more of a songwriter album than a pop album, which you just said.

and I think we need to stop thinking of Gracie as being a pop star because she's not. She's the most direct folklore daughter that we have. It feels so obvious that that was the formative album for her. And I don't think there are, I promise I'm getting, this is not a backhanded compliment. But I want to tell you how I think about this album because I actually think this album matters, but probably not for the reason. that some people think.

And we should talk about the critical reception to it in a minute. But like, there aren't new melodies here. There aren't new chord progressions. There aren't really new sounds. But if you think about Gracie Abrams as a songwriter of music alone, then I think you missed the point of Gracie Abrams.

I think she is a mirror. And I think she is a Rosetta Stone for people in their 20s. I think she's the output of people who lost a lot of their social interaction in their formative years during the COVID lockdowns. I think she is the stirring political pushback to the era of Trump and big technology. I think she's the first artist who's really articulated that, at least in what we have traditionally defined as pop music, and put some of her political feelings both into her music

but then also into the interviews like around an album cycle. Can I just, just to clarify question? Do you think that she's done that more than Phoebe or Billy? In the last four years, I do. I think she's been like pretty overt. I think Phoebe, we just haven't seen Phoebe for a long time.

Maybe Billy's the right. Maybe Billy's a fair challenge. Let me think about that. But I think that's not a terribly operative question. I totally agree with you that they all do it. I just the superlative I wanted to interrogate. I guess in this post-COVID Trump 2.0 moment, I find it, and I don't think she's been particularly overt or loud,

but I find it remarkable that she has been one of the loudest voices. And that I think is as much a criticism of other artists as it is a praise of Gracie, but Gracie's had the courage to go out and do it. And so she's this, like, product of a society that now publishes its emotional anguish and, like, mental health challenges. Like, it is acceptable to do that now. And so in that way, I think this art is important as a historical marker more than as a musical work. And I think if you go start to finish by the end of this thing, it feels a little bit like the end of tortured poets did. And there's a lot of songs that call back to that.

Like, oh, that's Robin. Oh, not the Bolter, because I know you love the bolter. But there are some things. Damn straight you do. But that's what I think Gracie Abrams is. I don't think we should, if we think about her just as a pop star, I think we miss the point. I think she's just a really important reflection of where people in their 20s are today.

And that's how I took this in. I have songs on here that I love. I have songs on here that I think are kind of snoozers. But in the aggregate, I think of it as a reflection of where people in their 20s are more than like this comprehensive statement of music. How about you, Nora Prenziotti? So can I just take us in a couple directions that I think are important? When you ask to do things, do I ever? say no. I don't know, but it could happen. There's always a first time. Just to your point about

Gracie Abrams' pop star and the moments when that is not necessarily as well-suited a moniker as it feels like it should be. We're about a year removed from a little less, but we're going on a year, from that's so true, absolutely blowing up. Like that song blew up. Yeah, it's going to be a $2 billion stream song on Spotify soon. And that song, I think, changed her kind of place in the Pantheon, right? In the current active landscape of pop stars or, like, pop-adjacent stars.

Yeah. Fair to say? Yeah, it did. And I wonder if that song, and I'm glad that it did, I love that song. You think even more than her Aera's Tour, the Ares Tour was a bit of a big tail wind and a catapult, but that song broke her out. I think that song broke her out. I think the Ares Tour helped certainly. I think it helped a lot.

And I think the last album also had some other, but like I think it was that song and the ubiquity of that song turning into a bona fide hit that she had. hadn't really had before changed where she is and how people perceive her. And I wonder, I like, it's a hypothetical question that I've been trying to, if not answer, because it's impossible, but like place myself in as I think about this album, is what would it feel like to listen to this and what would it feel like to sort of observe Gracie Abrams right now and what she's doing if that song had never happened and it didn't exist? because I think that a sort of strange though explainable thing that's happening around her is that she's become oddly controversial.

And I think there are people who find her success frustrating because they can't name the reason for it. And I think there are people who feel really emotionally tied to her work who find that dismissal really upsetting. Yeah. And therefore, this pretty mild-mannered person who is making music in a manner that is stylistically in line with a lot of what works right now is strangely polarizing in a way that even someone like Charlie X.E.

Like artists who are much more intentionally provocative, they actually don't provoke anywhere near as much as Gracie Abrams seems to provoke reactions and discussion and, like, intense feelings. And that's, there's something very Taylor Swift about that, but I wonder if, I wonder if just like that, that one song in some ways through a lot of stuff out of perspective. Because it's hard for me to think of her in the way that you just described her, right? as like, this is not a pop star. This is a songwriter who is sharing the inner lives of young people

and reflecting them back and that's the power of it. That does feel out of whack to me with how present she's felt broadly, like not just for a certain demographic. Her relationship had something to do with that. Yep, totally. The Palm Mascal thing,

as it does for a lot of artists. She's sort of being pulled into this Zendaya Tom Holland, duo Callum Turner, Meskell, Gracie, sort of universe of the next generation's favorite couples, I think. Yeah. And I mean, pulled is maybe a little bit more passive than, I would say, he's credited as a writer on this album. Yeah. And there's songs about him. Totally. it.

There's something I do think there's something about the way that she there's something about her that makes her innately accessible to people as you say. I think that's like

she speaks, she thinks she feels like that core fan base does. That is the essence of like her fan base. She's this icon Hollywood almost beauty

that sees them, right? And is as insecure as they are despite all these gifts. She speaks with this honesty and I think it's like deeply endearing to them.

I think the way that she has talked about her privilege is about as articulate and self-aware. Self-aware, but also

acceptable to the masses as any Nepo kid who's ever talked about that privilege. I think she's been very, very elegant in how she's acknowledged. Yeah. How that fits into her life and her work. Gracie Abrams is a fast learner. Like, her first performance of the era's tour was kind of mediocre. She was, like, timid and unrefined. She just lacked confidence on stage.

And by the end of that tour, like, you and I saw it, And in the span of six months, she was a pretty commanding presence on stage. It wasn't like she was Taylor levels of you got or Gaga levels of like you got to watch it. But she was an evolved touring artist in that moment. And again, that was like six months. So she's spoken about that privilege, I think, like you say, eloquently and in the best possible way for consumption by the masses, which is to say that she gets and honors the privilege, she gets and honors the perception, she gets and honors the stigma.

But I do wonder that if growing up... She's not defensive about it, which I think is really critical. No, and I do wonder if growing up in that house of such accomplishment actually helped with the curiosity and the drive that it took for her to get so much better so quickly. And so I think it sort of has served her. So hold on. But here's where this is hitting me in a weird spot. And let me, like, at the, I think to avoid the, to avoid seeming like, I don't know, just to not hide the ball.

I quite like both singles from this album. There's another song that I'm sure we'll talk about that I think is wonderful. there's a couple other little moments that I thought were interesting. I do like the bonus tracks. The majority of the rest of it, which makes up the majority of the album, I found borderline difficult to get through.

Okay. You're more on the pitchfork review. You're more in the, like, some of the reviews that came out of the UK were not good. I'm not here to be snarky. I just, I, Well, you are here to grade this album eventually before we sign off. I didn't.

I guess I'm not here to be snarky, so therefore I'll be blunt. I didn't enjoy a lot of it. There are a lot of songs that I'll borrow a phrase and say I found were kind of a bad time. And I get what you mean when you say that she's a fast learner in some areas. she's taking huge strides as a live performer. I find it a little hard to gas myself up about this album. You know, it's her third album. It's harder for me than it was before I heard this

to tell you what I think she's great at. And to tell you what I think gives her, makes her stand out in a crowded space to tell you why I would tell someone to listen to Gracie Abrams when they could listen to her inspirations who she wears pretty overtly on her sleeve

and before I heard this album what I would have said as an answer to that question I mean first of all I just think she has a few certifiable bangers. Risk to me is every bit as catchy and awesome and I want to listen to it a hundred times as that's so true. Like that should be a bigger song.

God, I'm jumping in the deep and it's more fun to swim and hurt the risk is drowning, but I'm going to take it. And she's got a few like that. And so those are worth spending as much time with as you want to. The thing that ties those songs,

that I do really like. Together has always been, I felt like she had a language that had a frankness to it that was a signature of hers. Do you not hear it and look at my life, for example? I do hear it, yeah. I think in the singles, it pops through.

Yeah. I think in the majority of the album, the song that it reminds me of the most was, us. The Taylor Collab song on The Secret of Us, which we both felt stuck out from that album because it sounded so folklore and it sounded so sort of like from the cutting room floor of that. And it had a wordiness and a sort of like multisyllabic, the quill pen quality that didn't

feel very gracey and just felt a little bit like it weighed heavily on the song. Something I really didn't expect was to feel like she was going to be writing in that voice much more often. And I feel like that pen is the majority of this album. And that's, that was a tough thing for me to swallow one, because it's just not, I don't gravitate to it. But also, it gets in the way of the one thing that I felt sure was what Gracie Abrams does really well. And I agree with you that in the singles, there's, you know, like, bet you can't tell, but it's kind of a bad time. Right. And it's a great line. And I think that is an example of her strength in writing. I don't think that style shows up very often. I guess I, like, I'll, I'll flip this as a compliment.

I think they chose the right singles. Well, that's for sure. They chose the right singles, assuming that the next one that they choose is the one that she played on Fallon. But the... If they don't, we riot, Nathan. If they don't we riot. Yeah, I mean, she like... It is that sort of classic, Gracie overlay of lyrics and rhythm and cramming words into measures in ways that I do find to be poetic.

Like she splits thoughts across stanzas, across verses, across verses into pre-choruses. Like you have to stay with her as she gets these thoughts out. Like she's racing and then she sings the name Caroline over two full measures. Like she changed like care, ra line. There's like chaos and venting. and I thought substance in all of it, maybe it's not a surprise that that song in particular,

guess who shows up in production? It's Dan Nygro. Yeah. Yeah. Producer of Chapel Rhone and Olivia Rodrigo. And that's why I just sort of want to ask you because the Taylor comps are just afflictions, which is clearly about Paul Meskell.

I like afflictions. There's a lot of Aaron. and in the background, the way that it starts where it's sort of, there's a single note entry point that gets a little bit louder of either a synth

or it's usually a synth. That happens three or four times on the back of tortured poets. But by the end of afflictions, like it feels like it's lifted from the song Happiness, which is not a tortured poet song.

But like, you haven't met the new me yet part of happiness is so much like the bridge of afflictions. That in the same, I don't know, it just, it really screams at you in the same way the good reason, which by the way is getting an abnormal number of streams relative to its position on the album, good reason is wildest dreams, Nora. Like, she's publishing the influence so much. And so there's a long-winded way of me saying, I hear you.

I like this album, I think better than you did, because when I added up the things that I like about it, I was like, that's a lot of things that I like about it. But start to finish as a project, it feels like folklore light to me. And the worst parts of tortured poets, and for that, and there's some stuff about tortured poets that is awesome. and for that, like, I blame Aaron Dessner. Yeah, I think we have to talk about this because I think there are two songs that really stick out to me and they are the two songs on this album that have an obvious additional person in the room

who made the song better and different. Yeah, I mean... And one of those people is Dan, Nigel and the other one is Audrey Hobart. Yes, and we're just going to save it because I'm glad that we're lined around this. Song fucking rules! Death Wish, the chorus

How will it end? How long will you give me till you twist the knife with a smile while you kill me? Is, sounds like the bridge from the smallest man who ever lived, like very much so. To the point where

it starts with the Aaron Dessner stuff in the background again. It's almost like he's like, he might as well just be like, Jason Derulo at the start of every one of his fucking songs. Or like, another one. Starting a song with a little like, like all of the background shit, right?

Yeah. But there just is so much fucking Taylor through this. I'm sorry. And the things that we fell in love with on the back half of tortured poets and all of Evermore and all of folklore. I mean, I went looking for some comps on a bunch of these songs.

Like, what if it's right? Could be the wrong thing. What if it's right? And so I was like, wait a minute. Where is this actually lifted from? And I'm happy to hear Marcus's voice. And I found myself like listening to Ivy three times because it's similar, but like three times better.

I'd want to know, I'd meet you where the spirit meets the bones. High cleaner, a dark figure left, kinder words by the door. Because there's more too, like, yeah, it's like a lifted melody, but that song does not have a lot of melody. Yeah. And it's so, and it's lyrically, it's so repetitive. Yeah, but what to make of this, where it just calls back so much to those projects that, again, clearly was so formative. But at the same time, hit the wall is the biggest song in this album. I love the verse.

This song is going to like, it's going to be your 15th biggest song. streaming song by Christmas at this rate. Like, it's moving. People are really listening to that song. It, like, matters to people. So I don't know exactly how to contextualize it. Look at my life is a really super strong song, I think. And you're exactly right.

Who was in the room? Like, I mean, we should talk about that. But, like, there's... Well, can I... Because I have an idea of what to make of it that is maybe, like, comes from a generous place. In some ways, like, Aaron, look, he's an adult and can take responsibility for things. But, like, in some ways, Aaron didn't really ask for this, right?

Like, there's this random thing that happens with Taylor Swift. And all of a sudden, which is not a traditional songwriter, producer, co-writer relationship at all. You're talking about someone who, first of all, is, like, an insane self-starter of their own, projects. And two, in a very particular circumstance of the pandemic, is taking these compositions and writing over them and doing something different because it was what worked at the time. But then out of that, this guy who was previously mostly doing stuff with his band and his brother and his sort of musical cohort becomes the... producer of the moment.

Producer of the moment for a lot of these young women and there's not a lot of evidence that he and no con. And there's not a lot of evidence to me that he knows how to push people. And I, in some ways, like,

I don't know why there would be. That's not what he's, that's not his, that wasn't really his job. And so I'm not sure that Aaron Destner is, I'm not sure that like part of his real skill set is to, you know, have a song, have a piece of music and go, okay, let's push. Like, let's do the stuff that Dan clearly does based on the way that he and Olivia have talked about, and Chapel have talked about making those albums.

Let's refine. Let's see if there can be more here. Let's see if this can, maybe it's good now, but it could be better. I can just, like, I think everybody involved in the. this album has good hang disease where like, Gracie Abrams seems lovely, and Aaron Destner seems lovely. And I'm sure that when they go to Longpond and like hang out and make this stuff,

I'm sure everybody has a blast. And maybe it does, like, I just, I don't, somebody has to be willing to say it's not there yet. And I don't know that I feel like that's his, I don't know that I, like, I think he can coax a certain comfort out of someone, but I'm not sure that he can push an artist. Let me make the counter.

case to you. I think that the way that Jack and Dan Nigro produce is very showy and flashy. And I think the music that they make tends to be more traditional pop. Yep. Aaron is more of an indie dad rock island guy and he is a crafter of nuance. The national songs are just steeped in nuance. The work that he's done with Big Red Machine and Boni Vair is steeped in nuance. Folklore and Evermore and the tortured poet stuff, you really have to listen to the layers of subtle but complex percussion.

That's underneath. And even in his Instagram post about this album, he said, these are songs that the more you listen to, the more you understand them and appreciate them and get some of the subtlety. And I hear that. Here's my thing. I'm with you on the, I think the production, I think there are a lot of, I think there's some interesting choices. I don't, it's not, so hold on, because it's not just about bigness, right?

Although I do, like, that's fair. I don't want to say that that's not entirely fair. I don't think the production of this is the problem. And I think it is nuanced in a lot of places. I think there are, you know, what am I thinking about? like the knife, I think, is a different, like, that's, that's, I haven't quite heard that treatment of a Gracie Abrams song before. I think there are layers to that that are interesting.

What I'm talking about is who is supposed to say when the lyrical writing, the melodies, and some of the delivery, some of the vocal performances. aren't there. Whose job is it to say we actually aren't there yet? I think it's supposed to be his. Or potentially the label. Hers or...

I don't know. I'm asking that question. She's a big girl and this is art that she's making and she has to decide what she wants to put out. You think there's vocal performances that aren't there? I think that there are songs like Good Reason where you can really hear, you can hear the treatment of it, whether it's melodine or the pitch correction or whatever, like the high notes, you really hear the fakeness of it.

Which is not, like, it's no shade for using that stuff. Everybody does it. Sometimes it really grabbed me. And she's, she's doing the whisper thing again. Like, I think that, I think some of the lyrics on Sober are on the more interesting, of this to me. Yeah, but she's really whispering on so. I can't listen to that song. I've been fine, yeah, thanks for asking. You've been just as well.

Really? And I know that people vary on this. And it, it, I think there are some people where it's more nails on a chalkboard than others. But I have a, I don't enjoy it. Oh. See, I thought that was part of the point was that she's sort of whispering all this in your ear. But the biggest note that she goes for in this album, and it's not the highest note, but the biggest note is on humming. And it comes against the backdrop of Justin Vernon singing. And it's almost like

his high register work gives her the permission or the courage to go for the really big note towards the end of that song. I think her vocal performance, her vocal performance does not bother me on this album. And in fact, I enjoy the voice, but I note and notice... I like her live. I like her voice live. Yeah, I just am saying,

I note and concede that she is not a vocal athlete. Her range and her control is not, you know, amongst the sort of top of the class. But that's if you put her as a pop star, like if you put her against the backdrop of sort of song, I don't know. I'm not making excuses for it, but I guess I thought the vocal performance was okay. I just think like the Tate McCray album, I think she sings within a range and she doesn't have the control and the dynamic runs that some other vocalists have. But again, I think that for her fan base, that is part of the.

accessibility and charm. It feels like you are in the room with the person in your life who you feel like is just a little bit cooler than you, but is letting you in and is your friend. She's telling you a secret. Yeah. I mean, that's what it feels like a lot. Okay. So then here's my other issue. Look, I didn't like this album very much.

I don't like that she's become a sort of punching bag. there's a lot to like with Gracie. It's the number one hour in the country. Yeah. It's going to be her biggest first week ever. Yeah. I mean, that's unsurprising. And again, by Christmas, hit the wall, which is only doing about 10% less than look at my life right now, even though it's been out from way longer.

Like, at the current pace, hit the wall is going to overtake free now by Christmas in terms of streaming. And free now is like a big. concert moment for her. Never been less empty. All I feel is free. It's streaming like it's a top three to five song in her entire catalog and mostly like a top three. Let's see what the decay curve looks like.

This is not an album without a hit amongst the fan base. This is an album with one, two, and if they do it right, three. Yeah. And look, I really like the singles. I like the singles a lot. And so part of where I'm coming from is of what I heard that was new to me. Like, I really like the singles and I like the bonus tracks, which I also was kind of aware of. So of the things that were new to me, I kind of, I basically liked one song.

Yeah. And that's the problem for you. Of the things overall, I like more than that. But the other, the other thing that I found challenging is, I don't know what this is about. Well, there's a lot of knives and blades and pills and stepping in front of trains and car crashes. And I think that's some of the point. I mean, this is a sad and there's some real depression here that percolates through the whole album. I thought we were going to have some brighter stuff given from the outside what looks like she's in a pretty happy place.

and she's spoken to that through the press tour around this album, that she is in a happy place. But, boy, that there is some, it's not dark. That's maybe the wrong way to say it. But in publishing the way that she feels, she doesn't hold back. And so all of the negativity and insecurity and fleeting moments of inflicting self-harm are there on the pages.

I think I could use an example. Okay. This album is called Daughter From Hell. And she's spoken of the idea that it's sort of, you know, this apology to her mom for some rebellious teenage years. That's sweet. I like that as a concept. What did she do? There's no focus on the From Hell part at all.

None. Nothing. It's all just like an aspirational. it's actually not even an apology. It's a love letter to her mother. We have no idea what Gracie Abrams did wrong. Why is she a daughter from hell? In the album, we don't have an idea? When she was asked about it in the podcast interview, she sort of demurred and she went, oh, you know, normal teenage stuff. It probably wasn't that bad. But like, maybe I put myself in a situation that wasn't safe. She says all the weed at 17 is catching up with me in humming. Maybe that's it. I don't know. Right. Right.

And like, I think that you could write, I don't want to invalidate that as a subject, right? You could write about how you smoked a ton of weed as a teenager and it drove your mom crazy. That's a super real story. Well, maybe she was running around with scissors all the time because that's what this album feels like. She's running around with a blade. None of it is rendered. And I don't feel like you have to. I actually think that something that she's done.

really well at times is being able to use some specificity to inform a story without necessarily like making the entire thing super diaristic. Like when she writes, you know, maybe I'm partial to this because I, like, lived there for a while, but when she writes about, like, being in Boston and that scene where she's, like, running on the banks of the Charles River, like, there's a vividness to that that makes these songs make the song feel real. Walking by the river and I stop by the boats at night. It's kind of tempting just to see if you float the benches by the Charles

gave me somewhere to go. You've picked the most disappointing song on the album. Because Daughter from Hell starts... This is the title track. With the, yes, it's the title track. It has the electric guitar that sounds interesting. But the energy never gets there. The melody never gets there.

and lyrically you're left wondering, wait, what? This is just a love letter to your mom. Okay, that's cool, but it's not. And I don't know, that's just how I received the art. So I get it. I get it on that song in particular. And there's parts, like the way that that electric guitar sounds, plus the fact that it's the title track,

like that song is screaming at you to treat it like it's a big deal. Yeah, I thought there was something coming. I thought there was a moment. in the chorus that was going to happen. And it doesn't. Nothing happens. And so it's like, it's made this centerpiece. And then it's just, there's nothing there.

Okay. You've been looking forward to this all week. And with Cutwater's cocktails, this took only seconds. Because tonight's about catching up, not catching the server. Whether it's our Cutwater, Lime, Margarita, lemon drop martini or rum mitai. They're expertly mixed and ready before the snacks hit the table. Cut water.

Expertly mixed cocktails. A perfect pairing for an evening with good company. Please enjoy responsibly. Must be 19 plus. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at bellair direct.com. That sound?

It means summer's biggest event is here. The fashion is unmatched. The crowd's buzzer. the bets are down. This isn't just a race. It's the Kings Plate. Canada's most iconic day at the track, world-class racing, live music, gourmet food and pure heart-pounding thunder. Saturday, August 15th, Woodbine Racetrack. Ticket start at $35. Don't miss out. Lock yours in today at kingsplate.com. The Kingsplay, rule the day. Must be 18 plus a wager. No way to take the reins. Responsible gambling.org. So let's go to our categories. Shall we? We shall.

just because I think it's going to help us get through a few of the things that there's there's still something that I'm going to have a lot of curiosity to see your reaction to. But do you disagree that hit the wall is the biggest hit? I guess the data says so, certainly. I wonder if I, like, if I didn't have a lot of, like, if I didn't have a the numbers, I wonder if I would have thought that look at my life might have been a little bit more

accessible somehow. But just because hit the wall, it has to build in that way. But I really like both, and I agree with you that I think hit the wall is going to be the biggest. I will say, like, I don't think that she's going to, I don't, I think that before this album, that's so true was her biggest song. I think after this album, that's so true will be her biggest song.

Yes. That I don't think is up for debate. But I do think this has a chance to be a top three Gracie song. Hit the Wall does. And if you see the live performance and the way that the crowd is reacting to it, at least in these smaller venues, it sure feels like that group is swallowing it whole. And again, this is why I think Gracie must be perceived as something other than about the music.

I think she's about the moment more than she is about the music. And I think there's people who are just gravitating too. her because of that because she does write and feel and speak and think the way that they do. And she's the goddess of that. And they've come to worship at that altar more than they have come to worship at the altar of the music. And maybe I'm just talking myself into understanding the sociological phenomenon and the psychological phenomenon, but that's what it feels like to me.

What it also feels like to me is that we're going to agree on what the best song on this album is. And to borrow a line, I think it's mini bar and everybody knows. Oh, we're doing social anxiety bangers. Is that Aubrey Hovart's music? It's great. It's fabulous. I love it. It's two minutes long.

That's the only thing that's wrong with it, by the way. it's two minutes long, which means I've listened to it 700 times. Oh, you were not to put you on blast because it was completely fine. You texted me and Kaya like a little bit before we started this recording and said, sorry guys, I'm going to be five minutes late. And my immediate thought was great, two and a half more mini bars. This is a song that she co-wrote with Audrey Hobert. It is like bowling out.

an anti-hero got in a car crash or had a baby. And you can hear the anti-hero in the background, clear as day. It is fantastic. It leaves me feeling like Audrey Hobart is our modern-day Cyrano de Berger Act. Like she just writes with such a, I mean, let me just ask you this. does this album miss Audrey

for you? Yes. Yes. Yes. Like, undeniably. I mean, you can't see this song at number whatever it is. 11. And not feel like it was buried

for a couple of reasons. One is, I think if you lead it, lead with it, it becomes the story. Like, this could be the biggest hit. If it wasn't two minutes long, but it still may break out

because Audrey's having a breakout moment and her brother Malcolm Todd is having a breakout moment and this little cinematic universe could completely catch fire because this song is so fucking great. And so I don't... It could be the biggest song. It really could, but the only reason it wouldn't,

I guess, is because of the length. I don't know. I think they put it here because they had to hide it first of all. so that they could let the other singles flourish. But then secondly, it gets pieced between muse, which follows, broke my heart and sober, and then imaginary friend and afflictions and humming,

and what if it's right and cold goodbyes or after it? They had to break up what was a funeral procession down the backstretch there. Yes. And it's so out of place. It's so out of place. I mean, at least, you know, I'll say. She also wrote it a longer time ago. And she wrote it a longer time ago.

I don't hate imaginary friends. Oh, really? Don't be a figment of my imagination. But you aren't fucking hated. Oh, it's kind of, I mean, mostly I think it's kind of funny that everybody wants their Sally Rooney boyfriend to like play piano and write songs with them. This is the Joe Alwyn moment here. Oh, we have William Bauer.

2.0. That's what this. Paul Meskell is a co-writer on imaginary friend. I don't know. I think imaginary friend, like, at least it's kind of weird. Fair enough. Fair enough. It is weird. And let me tell you, she's using the F word. As ungenerous as I may sound right now, I was really looking for stuff to like. Okay. And so maybe that's coming through a little bit. But it was not, that was not difficult to locate on minibar whatsoever. Yeah. Mini Bar is the best song in the album. It's the best song in the album.

Although I do think, here's the thing about Minibar. The singles, I think, are good, are, like, good songs that I like that sound like Gracie Abrams songs. And I think there have been songs in the past that she wrote with, Audrey, that, you know, you can quibble

and we could have an argument of, like, how much of this writing is Gracie, how much of it is, Audrey and like whose voice is this really, but where, something like that's so true, I hear that in Gracie Abrams, in the voice of a Gracie Abrams song. This more than any of those songs, this is an Audrey Hobart song. Like this is, this is what Audrey Hobart does. The, the sort of surrealism of it, the self-deprecating humor, the quick shifts between local. locations where you're, again, in this sort of like surrealist fantasy of what it feels like to

feel awkward at a party in this way. Like that is so signature to Audrey that it feels more, like it's much more stark than, oh, hey, it looks like there's this other young woman who works on a lot of Gracie Abrams's songs and is there's something to the sharpness of the lyrical writing that's about, like this is a different thing than that. So I think that's another reason why. Like I hope it works, it ends up a single.

I think it will have to because it's just undeniable in that way. Yeah, it's undeniable. And Audrey, again, and if she's doing it on Fallon, like I think they know. Is there anything else on this album that you like? There are a few other things that I want to talk about,

but is it really the bonus track? look at my life, hit the wall, and minibar. Those are the songs that I will come back to. I want you to spend some more time with humming. So that is the song that I was just going to bring up. I think it's important. Part of what I like about that song is that I know where she's coming from. I know, like, I have context for it.

And so I can understand what her sentences mean. And, you know, it allows it to just be moving in a different way and touching and emotional. I don't know that I'm there. Like, I don't know that I'm there for the music. But I think that's a song where I can locate the thing that you're describing of, she's a little bit of a troubadour. And I like hearing her sing about being part of a generation that, has been let down and feels let down and feels the...

It's her most political song, for sure. Nileism, yeah, and hopelessness of that. My daughter called me in tears because there's a line in here that's very clearly about the palisades. She and Audrey grew up in the palisades and she's being direct when she says every kid I grew up with has lost their childhood house. So there's a little bit of bias.

obviously on that one for me. I mean, I think I even felt that, like, because I heard it and was immediately thinking about you and your kids. But also, you know, a lot of people know someone touched by that. So it's like that's the power of specificity. Well, that's right. And I understand why you're frustrated by the absence of it in other places. But I also think, like, she goes for it on this song. We talked about that with Justin Vernon sort of layering in his high.

vocal, but I think the, where they actually have the humming section, musically, that's one of the highlights of the album for me. It's just like hauntingly beautiful. That arrangement just worked so well for me. And I think, I think it's the, I think she comes with like the most important line, which is let me wake up from this horrible dream where what feels true is nothing and there's no one at the top to believe what a way to feel in your 20s. And that, that line for me is why I, that's how I rationalize and understand Gracie Abrams' popularity. And there's no one at the top to believe what a way to feel in your 20s. is that she's really speaking for people in their 20s

and that they are drawn to her as a marker of time more so than any music she puts out. I mean, not that this entire album could be her like burping and farting for an hour, but pretty close. And when you layer on top some songs that I think are streaming well and are moving people, it's why it works. Yeah, no, I think that song is quite strong. I don't, I don't know. I guess I don't mind burying it so far down on the album just because it is, I think sometimes when something is emotionally potent in that way, you actually do kind of want to save it.

But it is another one where I am kind of like some of these songs, it seems like you think you really, really have something and I don't get why. And then some of these other songs, they feel like they're buried here and I get so much more out of them. Yeah. Some of the sequencing. What would you cut? Would you cut just a whole shitload? Are there things that you had like visceral anger-driven reactions to here? Or is there just some stuff that you felt like was meh that you would trim?

I did. I had a tough time with sober. Mm-hmm. I had a tough time with afflictions. Oh, because that's very clearly the Paul Meskell song. Oh. When you stop and. Stick around

About it? Yeah. And I don't, and I think it paints a charming picture of Paul. I don't. Like, I understand that we all have our insecurities. When she is writing about herself

and saying over and over again, like, I'm so weak. I'm so weak. It's the shape of your hands. Made me brave once again. I'm, tell me, Why? Like, explain to me how you are the person that you seem to write yourself as. Like, I don't believe it. She's not, she's Gracie Abrams. Like, this is in no way me saying that she can't have challenges or struggles or pain in her life. We all do. But my criticisms of this album aside, she is an obviously incredibly talented person.

She seems to be incredibly well-liked. She looks like she has a happy relationship. She looks like she is brave enough to pursue her passions and creativity. Like, I just, I need something to ground me in how the person that she writes herself as is the person that I, with, of course, course very limited information, observe in the world. And look at my life isn't the answer for you where she says, bet you can't tell, but it's kind of a bad time. I mean, she sort of speaks to exactly what you're asking for in that song. But again, I think we're talking about like a show, don't tell.

And I do think that there are moments in Look at My Life where she talks about like, okay, I could move across the country just to judge myself as much as I do it back home, where like, I can get pictures. I can get even if she's not rendering the image so specifically, I can kind of get this idea of you have an

underlying feeling of self-doubt and you tell yourself that a change of scenery is going to change it. And then of course it does it. Like there's something that feels tangible there. And afflictions to me in addition to the title track

are the two where I'm just like, what are you trying to tell me? I don't, like, I don't get it. I think she's telling you she loves Paul Meskell a lot and she feels safe with him. And my only criticism of the song is that once you hear the happiness comp,

you can't unhear it. And because of its position on the album, after we have heard, broke my heart. How could it dream you like? which sounds like a back half of tortured poets. After we have heard sober, which sounds like an Aaron Destner song, after we have heard Good Reason,

which sounds a lot like wildest dreams to me anyway. After we have heard Death Wish, which, again, has a lot of smallest man who's ever lived in it, you get to the point there where it's hard to separate the roots of some of these songs for sure. Sure. And I didn't love cold goodbyes. I think, again, the vocal delivery had a lot of that whisperiness. That wasn't my favorite thing. Look at all these people. Do I have to play tonight?

Used to know what landed well for me. You want to hear my conspiracy corner? Please. Well, I kind of have two. And I know we're talking a lot about Taylor, but I think it's for good reason. The first is that men like you is about Taylor Swift. And look, there's two readings.

There's two readings of that song. The first is that it's a female friend that used her. And the other, it's a male relationship who used her, in which case you have to get comfortable that she's using girl in the way as sort of like an androgynous pronoun? Because she says, girl, I know men like you. But I wonder, I mean, I think like, is there a chance it's about her feeling caught between Olivia and Taylor?

Certainly. It would work. I will say that I think this song is, regardless of who it's actually about, it's a more interesting song if it's about a woman. I agree. That's why I sort of chose to go there. Look, Death Wish, she said that this is about a dear friend who was dating a narcissist. Ain't to say it's nothing new aside from those few girls you keep around. And so I wonder if it's Maddie Taylor.

Because it sounds very, very, very, very much. Like, the chorus sounds like the smallest man who ever lived bridge. Yeah, well, and it has, I mean, not that this is like a trademarked line, but it has how will it end, which is a tailor. Yes. How will it end? How long will you give me one gasp and then how to... So I think, I actually, if I had to bet money, I would put, like, on Kalshi, I'm much more in

on the death wish being tied to Taylor than I necessarily am on men like you, but I think you can interpret both of them that way. Yeah. There's my conspiracy corner. She doesn't seem like she's on bad terms with Taylor at all. Right. And so that would...

But maybe she was uncomfortable with the... I mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean, what that would mean within the context of the things that they've done together, I guess would be interesting. Like, maybe, yeah, I don't, I don't know. That relationship seems comfortable to me, but I think it is, but you never know. She could have been, she could have been a little upset. As you noted, Taylor does have a new set of friends and a new sort of direction in her life, which is great. We're happy for her. But you wonder what that means for some of the people, you know, anyway. It sure seemed like Gracie was cozying up with Olivia Rodrigo in this cycle, which is cool. And yeah. Yeah, I mean, and maybe that, you know what's funny.

It speaks very well of Gracie, but this is the first moment that it has occurred to me that even that fact that she could be torn. Has made it clear that she's very close with Olivia. Could suggest anything to the contrary with Taylor. I'm not saying that I think that, but it's just because she seems so, like my working assumption is that everybody who, who meets Gracie Abrams, loves Gracie Abrams. And it's just like, this is a good person, this is a nice girl. She's fun to be around, really smart, create it, like, all of these things.

And therefore, like, nobody has a problem with Gracie. Yeah. Other than. Oh, well, people did. Well, other than people who. People really had a problem with the cigarette at Glastonbury. They really had a problem with it. So I ask you, as I do from time to time, does she smoke now?

She does. I mean, yeah, I think she does. We know Paul does. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, she certainly are, with Paul, she's certainly around it. And the internet joke has been she can't do that because she's got this voice that is her thing. And if she blows the voice, then, you know, it's already limited in terms of it. I don't either.

Oh, God. I don't either. It's just like, it makes me want to... I think our algos are slightly different. I think you get fed a lot of the Gracie hate. And I know that it's out there and I see it. But I just see a lot more like devoted, almost sycophantish fandom for this woman that has... That to me feels slightly incongruous with...

what I think the quality of the first three albums have been, but very much believable if you contextualize it the way I have for the last hour on this podcast by saying I think she's just a marker of where people in their 20s are. And that's how I rationalize this. For the record, I don't really get fed a lot in either direction. I just, like, as part of seeing where the temperature is on this album, I think I see both sides of it.

I will also say that, like, the way that I learned that people felt in both directions, the way they feel about Gracie Abrams, is I remember last year, at some point last year, maybe it was right after the last album came out. You know, I had some feedback for that as well. And I knew of a couple of people who were not, like, mad or whatever, but who were just like, if you're not going to, if you're not going to say all nice things about Gracie Abrams, that's okay. But like, I can't listen to it. I can't consume it. I can't, can't let anything enter my mind that this is anything less than a goddess of our time. I'm like, okay,

sure, fine. There's, there's a part of that fan base with Taylor. There's a part of that fan base, yeah, with others. And that was more, that's a little bit more, I would say our audience. That was from people who were a little bit younger also. Then, like a month later or something, whenever this happened, I did, I was on my friend's podcast with a bunch of other people who do various music-adjacent forms of commentary.

And we were doing, we were like, I think ranking or doing a list of our favorite songs of the year. And I had, I think I had risk on my list. I had a Gracie Abrams song on my list. That audience is a little bit more, like, that's kind of the Charlie crowd. It's a little bit more like downtown New York. I was booed in a friendly manner, but I was booed for selecting a Gracie Abrams song. And it has stuck with me. Is she like nickelback or something? I think she's, I think to some people she is like, yes. I think it's

different. I think because it has something to do with the Nepo baby thing, I think it has. Yeah, there's some like weird, like, but she's also like... I just was like, it is so interesting that to, that like this breadth of feeling and opinion exists. Yeah, about this person. Over someone who is doing this. And again, for the like angry left part of the internet, it feels like she's at least had the courage to speak out for a lot of causes that they support.

So I don't, I don't totally get it. And I'm sure that the segmentation is more nuanced than that. that. Well, yeah, I don't know that I think it's, I don't think it's political. I think it's more like, I think it's, I more comes from a lack of understanding of what's her calling. Like, what is it that makes this artist who has become huge worth spending time with that could be spent with any other artist. But I don't know, I don't know. All I know is that it just was a striking piece of evidence of how. polarizing someone who seems nice and smart and mild manners can be in their own way? Well, I'm interested to keep watching where all of this goes because I do think that this, there's been some kind of like supernova, like start of the universe moment. Like a second universe, like Taylor Swift's cinematic universe clearly spawned this. And this album is Exhibit A, honestly, to Gracie's.

connectivity to it. But there is now, here we sit at the end of July, 2026, for me, in contrast or maybe just, yeah, maybe in contrast to what we got in 2024 when a number of these artists put out albums, Charlie and others, I just am noticing the generational divide and how there has been this split cinematic universe that is not ruled and governed by Taylor Swift anymore, although there are many characters that are in both of it. But now you have Audrey and Malcolm Todd, her brother, and Gracie, and the Paul Meskell, who is her partner,

who used to be with Phoebe Bridgers, who has a new album coming. And how, and Olivia, of course, playing a role. in this. And I thought the Gracie Olivia in-person interview was really insightful and interesting and sort of a great summary of the, I think I got to know both of them a little bit better through that thing. So I'm just interested to see where this one goes because it is generationally different. It is impacted musically for sure. But I just notice in the summer of 2026 that there is a very clear delineation and sort of line of demarcation

between this 20-something group of creators versus Taylor Swift vintage stuff. And I'm interested to see how it develops as its own ecosystem or if it does. Well said. Shall we? What did you grade this? I gave it a C plus.

Wow. I gave it a B and I'll tell you I gave it a B. because on my list of my 10 favorite songs of 2026, mini bar is on there. And I think that I frequently criticize albums that I think are really well done but don't have that standout thing. The Rosalia album is beautiful,

but it is a thing that you have to put on in the right setting. The Ray album has some really cool stuff on it. I think I've been clear that I love Nightingale Lane, but that is not necessarily, you know, it's in its own thing. There is some ubiquity to a few of the songs on this album at the moment that I think is playing out,

you know, I don't know that there's a Noah Khan song that's taking over the universe. Like his fans are, there are 6,000, 8,000 people in the streets outside of Wrigley Field just listening to his concert. So it doesn't have to have that breakout hit

to grow and build and continue the momentum of a fan base. I think this is going to serve its purpose, and I think quantitatively, it's reflecting that it served that purpose of expanding Gracie's footprint. And I think that, while I agree with you,

that there is some sleepy stuff when you go start to finish, if I pull out, hit the wall, and I pull out, look at my life, and I pull out mini bar, and for me, pull out humming, and I go, I think I'm going to hear

two of those songs a lot, the singles. They're not ones that I necessarily come back to personally, but like when I go to the lake in a couple of weeks and with my 28 person family, and I have OX and make the playlist, in the

first 10 songs, Mini Bar will be there. Yeah. No, I'm, and it's funny because I think I'm right there with you on all of those songs, and I might even like the singles better than you do. A B generally has to start at like an 80

and it's hard for me to like when I think about it like that it's hard for me to get there just because it is it is the bulk of it that I struggled with I will say that there are a lot of critics who agree with you

there really are is it five songs if you do the two the two singles yes it's five humming mini bar and mini bar

Okay, so I guess it's four songs. That's four. But if you add the bonus tracks. You add those two bonus tracks. If she just layered in a six-track EP, she would have won you over, it sounds like. That's a six-track EP that I would be praising to the heavens. Like, I would really, really think that that was very, very strong. And I would grade that six-track EP very differently.

But I felt overwhelmed by the other stuff. And I don't know that I could, didn't feel right to me to say that if I were giving it a number grade, I would give it like something in the 80s because I think that's just not. Well, not how it felt to me. Long, effing, live, many bar. On that, we will go out because it is absolutely right. This has been every single album. As always, I'm Nora Pinciotti. He's Nathan Hubbard.

Thank you to Kai McMullen for producing this episode and to you for listening. We will talk to you next week. Sorry. Investing, trading? That isn't a personality. You don't need the voice. You don't need the jargon. You don't need the podcast.

You already know how to trade. You've done it your whole life. And TD Easy Trade taps into that instinct so you can build something real. No minimums, no monthly fees, 24-hour support. No investor personality required. Because you are made to trade. And TD Easy Trade is made to have. Help. Download it now.

Heaven's alive! You look really terrible, big devil. Tell me about little devil. It's hotter than heck down here and I burnt out. Here, try a Red Bull. It's devilishly good. Red Bull, eh? Oh, that tastes heavenly, but, but... what's this? Oh, dear. I forgot about that. Wings! Wings! I can't have wings. Not at my position. Red Bull gives you wings!