Every Single Album - ‘Deeper Well’ | Every Single Album: Kacey Musgraves

Episode Date: April 9, 2024

Nora and Nathan take a look at Kacey Musgraves's sixth album, ‘Deeper Well.’ They start by talking about where they think Kacey is at in her career before getting into the album. They go through all the songs, talking about which were their favorites and least favorites (19:30), and at the end, they talk about what they are looking for from Kacey in the future. Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Have you ever wondered about the meaning behind your favorite song lyric or why certain melodies make your skin tingle? I'm Cole Kushner and these are the kinds of questions I try to answer on Dissect, a podcast that dives deep into one album per season examining the music, lyrics, and meaning of one song per episode. I've dissected full albums by Kendrick Lamar, Radiohead, Tyro the Creator, Beyonce, Kanye, and more. Our latest season just launched all about MF Doom's Mad Villany. Listen to Dissect wherever you get your podcast because great art deserves more than a swipe. Every single album. I'm Nora Prince-Diati and I am here, as always, with Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, how are you doing? It's Casey time. It is Casey time. Yehaw. Yet again, we are here to talk about

Casey Musgraves' fifth album, Deeper Well, which at this point has been out for a few weeks, came out in March, March 15th, I believe, but I think there's a lot to talk to on this record and I'm excited to get going, but since this is our first Casey episode and since, you know, we did a lot of scene setting when we talked about Beyonce. Obviously with Taylor, we've done like 19 billion hours worth and gone through the whole discography. I think with Casey in some ways, it's a little, it's a little less people have less automatic fluency with Casey Musgraves than someone who's a superstar like Beyonce obviously. So I do before we get going, want you, Nathan Hubbard, to start by telling me, just in broad strokes.

your Casey Musgraves journey. Where as a fan were you coming from when you pressed play on Deeper Well for the first time? Yeah, I was coming from it as a fan, not a super fan, but a fan. I mean, I love Follow Your Arrow at the time, which got me into her out of the gate. And the story of a,

woman who clearly was expressing more progressive views in a more conservative town has been tried before. And that town being Nashville. Has been tried before with varying and limited degrees of success. And the reason that I am really interested in Casey's journey is that so many female artists of the progressive persuasion who've started in Nashville have tried desperately to get out.

Taylor, put the politics aside, Taylor, crossover, get out. Shanaya Twain, crossover, potentially get out. I think Marin Morris is an example of late who has maybe not fully tried to cross over but has had some clashes with what the traditional institution is.

Casey seems to be an artist who embraced in so many ways what Nashville is and what it's about. And when you look at the ways in which she has quote unquote crossed over, I mean, she obviously crossed over with what for me is just a blow your face off great album, Golden Hour. But even of late, you know, the work that she's done with Zach Bryan on I remember everything, the work that she's done with Noah Khan, she's, she does the work. I mean, she went out with Harry Stiles, right? She's been out on the road. She really has, she went out with Katie Perry. Like she's done the work to expand her audience without leaving the core of what Nashville is. And that in many ways is unique, especially for female artists who have felt constrained by the views and sometimes values that they feel like they've bumped up against in Nashville.

So she's been a really interesting case study for me. I have trouble listening to rainbows without, like, becoming emotional. You could see what I see. You'd be blinded by the colors. And so that album, Golden Hour, and that song in particular for me, just moves me in ways that I can't explain. And so when I push play on every. Casey song since.

Rainbow is sitting somewhere very deep in my heart. How about you? I love Rainbow. So it sounds like you and I came to Casey basically through the same song, though I'm betting through different ways of experiencing it, which was that. So in 2013, when same trailer different park came out, I was in college. And if last year, if last year we did reformed horse. girl. I will do reformed sorority girl on this one.

Okay. Which was that follow your arrow because I was my college sorority, the symbol was an arrow. And we would do this thing. The year, like it must have been around when that album came out and when that song was starting to hit. I think we had recruitment. And I'm forgetting all of the specifics. There are a couple of people who listened to this podcast who, um, we're there at the scene, so maybe they can hit me up and tell me what details I'm forgetting of this. But we had this thing where we would listen to that song and we would play parts of it during the part of recruitment when there are like adults there and like older women who had been in our chapter were like helping us do it. And everything had to be like very by the book and like very rules oriented. And anyone who ever heard of college Greek life can tell you that it is like the Pentagon.

the way that they're like, if you do anything wrong, you'll die. I don't know what you're talking about. So this will really hit for some people and probably not at all for others. But so we would do this thing because we were just like shitheads where we would play the parts of follow your arrow that sound like a very traditional like sweet country song when there were other people around. And then at some point, like, we were all in our chapter room together and we would just, like, turn up the make lots of noise, kiss lots of boys or kiss lots of girls. If that's what you're into. And it was just, it was like a whole bit. And everyone loved that song.

And I loved that song. And therefore, was very interested in the person who made it. And I've always had an interest in, in. to say an interest in country music is probably actually overstating it a little bit. But certainly an appetite for it when it serves to me in a context where I'm interested in the people who are singing it or I think it's particularly good. I don't seek out a lot of like new and up-and-coming country artists, but I often like them when they're served to me.

Casey did a very good job of getting her songs in front of young women who are not necessarily core country audience members. So I was very tickled by that. Since then, what's been interesting, and it stuck out to me when you talked about her sort of staying true to the core of Nashville. And I want to hear more about what you mean by that because Casey, to me, she started in some ways as this person who had kind of a different perspective. And she did have a very, you know, she was singing these quasi-traditional country songs through this very. progressive lens and had this persona of, you know, a young woman who was sort of challenging those norms. And I thought that was very interesting, but she also was centering her small town,

Texas upbringing in a lot of her work. And that's less, that's a little bit more foreign. To me, and the funny thing is that since then, what I think is fascinating about her career is that for this woman who came out of the country music scene and you know, we can quibble over how much she still is in that scene. Yeah.

Has become kind of like a I don't even know how to, she's like in this ecosystem, I feel with like Haim and these sort of like, I mean, it stuck out to me that she did the big

cover story for this album in New York magazine. She recorded this album in New York. She's become like her fan base to me is I don't think it's a country fan base. And so it's interesting where I, I, when I became a fan, it felt like something that was sort of not of me in a way that more and more and more, she seems to reflect something that is actually a lot more familiar to me is a lot more like, you know, to simplify it. coastal,

Easter, whatever. Yeah. But I think that's the point on this. Nashville and country as a category have become a dumping ground for a whole variety

of music at this point. And a lot of what was the traditional singer, songwriter stuff is being labeled country. Is what's happening there that Nashville is changing and that people are changing

Nashville and putting different sounds on the actual country charts in the country ecosystem? Or are the sounds of country music becoming more tangible on for pop audiences or sort of like folky alternative audiences is country like what I feel like is happening here. And we'll get into it. And I think we'll talk about this because this is one of the things that I think is really interesting about this album. It doesn't feel like, and I think you could actually say something similar about the Beyonce album that we talked about last time we met too.

Doesn't seem to me like what you what you hear in Nashville or if you look up what the country charts are reflecting that that's really all that different from sort of how we stereotype it. But what it feels like is if you go to a pop audience or you go to all of these different non-country formats and places. there are so many country sounds being used in those environments. And that, like, that, that to me is, is a little bit of a framework shift. And how Casey Musgraves fits into that, I think is a big part of this record.

Yeah. I don't know. Those things are mutually exclusive. I mean, I think you're right that elements of the traditional elements of the genre have been absorbed and adopted by others. But I also think there is this wing. of the Nashville scene that, I do not think deeper well as a country album.

I wouldn't think of it as a traditional country album. In the same way, I didn't think the Beyonce album was a country album, but it certainly incorporates some elements of it, but I'm not sure Zach Bryan isn't closer to Springsteen than he is, you know, to some of the, Alan Jackson, right? So I think you've got... Well, you've had some of Springsteen's sweat on him a couple nights ago. That's for sure alongside Maggie Rogers.

So who we're going to talk about soon. But the traditional part of this genre still exists, and you can still get a lot of truck and beer and cars and women. But it has become more of a home for the traditional singer-songwriter who doesn't necessarily have a vector into pop radio. this has been a place where that person has ended up. And again, I think we will always talk too much about Taylor on this pod, but Taylor's journey is instructive of that. I think the difference here is that Casey, I don't think Casey's wearing a costume when she does her country stuff. And again, I think her staying within the ecosystem here is actually fairly rare. You know, winning album of the year. It haven't been that many countries. There wasn't a single country album nominated for album of the year this past year. So her winning for Golden Hour in 2018 was really meaningful.

And the nominations that she'd had earlier were really meaningful. It's rare that you see somebody stay in that audience. Well, I do think that there's a thread here that's informing a lot of what this album sounds like and a lot of what we're going to talk about. because, as you said, Golden Hour, which is her most, her biggest album. And without spoiling how we feel about this one, I think probably it's not a shock or a spoiler to say that we both would consider it her best. I think, you know, in one album of the year of the Grammys.

Rainbow was the fifth single off that album. Right. It's definitely her most successful. That was such a celebrated record and I think such a good one. How did you feel about Starcrossed? Well, so that said, it's followed up by StarCrossed in 2021, which is her divorce record. She just got divorced and it was really that narrative. I love Breadwinner.

I love Camera Roll. Those are two awesome songs on that record. So I. Yeah, I like StarCross. I think StarCross will go down as a little bit of a, a little bit of a flopsy. It didn't do very well commercially. It was this, it was a lot more pop-centric.

You know, Golden Hour, one album of the year, also won a number of country awards. StarCross, there was a little bit of a controversy where it got removed from the country category at the Grammys. And that was sort of emblematic of some of, of what she was trying to do there, where it did sound more, even more pop fluent than I think she had started to do on Golden Hour. She played naked on the Grammys.

I like, I like Justified a lot. I think that's a good... That's the song she played. Yeah. I really like Cherry Blossom. She played naked on SNL, not the Grammys. she like was stepping out in that moment. She was like, I think the whole returvy is.

I mean, it had the whole video. Like they gave it a whole lemonade treatment. And it, I have conflicted feelings about it. Because it was a little bit of an overreach. And I think it's a fine album. Like lyrically or stylistically for you? What do I think was an overreach or what do I like about it? No, no.

What do you think was an overreach? The whole packaging about the whole packaging where she's doing this like Romeo and Juliet sort of mythic thing where it's like a concept album. It gets all of the visuals. There's clearly this let's make a statement. Let's make like let's do the persona thing that we talk about so much with pop stars. And let's get everybody on board because we know exactly. what she's writing about and we're going to go through all of the lyrics and sort of decipher. They just, I like Breadwinner.

I think I really want to like do the whole you go girl thing on Breadwinner. I didn't feel. I don't hear her care that much. Like it's a, it's a cool song. It's an interesting idea. I just, I don't. I hear some good songs, but I, it never felt emotionally potent in the way that some of actually, her less aggrieved songs do in a weird way.

Like so much of the Casey Musgraves proposition is like self-care and chilling. Oh boy. We got a lot to talk about. Camera roll breaks my heart. That song really got me. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Well, so I sort of agree with you in the sense that I think that album is as generally considered to not have gone very well. Yeah, it wasn't a face melter. Let's put it that way. Yeah. And I think that's a little bit, I think it was better than I got credit for, though.

I don't think that it was as good as Golden Hour, and I don't think that it had as much of her presence on it, if that makes sense. Really? I just didn't like that they kept calling it a divorce album. That just made, to me, that pigeonholed it so much. In fairness, she did that too. And I wonder if she did that willingly is perhaps too strong.

But I wonder if there was pressure for her to make this play to capitalize on the fact that Goldenauer put her in front of a more mainstream audience. Right. I think you're right. I do agree with you that the whole like I'm painting this as Romeo and Juliet and Star Cross lovers and tragedy and we're referencing Greek myths. It just it all it felt and you know I hate this word, but it felt a little. contrived from a person who I think is one of our most earnest pop country, whatever you want to call her stars, and someone who just seems so grounded, that felt odd to me. I guess we had a different experience of that record. I enjoyed it as part of her. I mean, there is an interesting narrative of Casey's sort of personal journey that comes through

everything that she writes, which is what makes her, I think, a special writer. And there was something about this record that I connected with. I don't know. Not every song blew me away, but I think it's really hard to follow up something like Golden Hour. And I'm with you that the, I just didn't like the, I didn't like the promotion of this as a divorce album.

I wish they had just sort of put it out as the album that it was. They wanted to move her into arenas. There were some songs that felt like were intended to be a little bit more slapish. and whatever. There are some songs on there that I really carry with me still. I agree with that. I do, however, think that that,

I mean, I hear so much of this album, which we can start, we can get into our categories and start talking about it now. I do hear a fair bit of this album as a course correction. From that. I mean, Deeper Well is

much more of a return to the sounds that she came up using. It's a lot more stripped down. It is a re-centering, I think, of her identity and of the things that of most of the things, we'll talk about it, not all of the things, but of most of the things that we've sort of learned to expect from Casey Musgraves in terms of her point of view. And for the most part, I think that that's pretty effectively done. I think you hear this. This is really undeniably a Casey Musgraves album. No one else would have made a record that sounded like this. No one else would have made a record with the same set of references. And StarCross did not always, to me, feel like hers in the same way as basically everything else that she's done. I think she is generally a very hard personality to decenter. But that album did it a little bit. And this, one, she is squarely back, squarely back in that driver's seat. And I do think that starts with the title track, which is definitely the biggest hit from this record. How do you feel about Deeper Well,

the song? Man, all right. I look, we can talk about Deeper Well. My hot take on this is that like, The question is, what's the biggest hit? I think this album is a vibe. And I think you're right that, you know, it has a lot of the golden hour in it. It reminds me, a lot of these songs remind me of slow burn. They start acoustic and then here comes the drums in the second verse, sort of, you know, sedated snare sounds.

but that's sort of Golden Hour is sort of a transcendent set of melodies and lyrics for me I love the vibes of this record I'm interested in her personal journey but I think it is full of really good vibes and absent a moment I think Deeper Well is probably the biggest song

but what's interesting about this record for me is I'm not sure there's a hit is there a hit on this record? I mean, is that any different from her entire Casey Musgraves, other than the Zach Bryan collab, which I'm sorry, hit number one on the country charts and on the Hot 100 because Zach Bryan was on it and anything Zach Bryan touches right now does that. Casey Musgraves has never had a top 10 song. Her highest charting country song is still follow your arrow. Like she exists in this very weird, although maybe it's not weird because there are more and more people like this. like Carly Ray Jepson is like this.

There are a zillion pop stars who are like, like Lana Del Rey is kind of like this. Well, Carly Ray Jepson's the most streamed female artists at the 2010s. Because of one song that was kind of a bit. Yeah. Yeah. But in general, like right now, not in the 2010s, but right now Carly Ray Jepson

is the comparison I'm drawing. Yeah. Casey Ms. Graves is like a pretty household name if you subscribe to New York Magazine, I guess. I don't know what I'm trying to say by that, but I think in a, in a, among people who care about non-monoculture top tier pop stars, Casey Musgraves is a household name. Casey Musgraves after an album that wasn't super well received, didn't totally fill out her arena tour. But Casey Musgraves, Casey Musgraves could sell out Madison Square Garden, right?

That feels right. Yes. Casey Musgraves has never had a top 10 songs. Like Casey Musgraves doesn't write hits. Yeah. Well, and I think that, I mean, Golden Hour would say a little different. I mean, I think there was a lot of songs that really stood out and grabbed you. What I'm saying about this record is, and again, I am a Casey fan.

I just think this record is a vibe. This is like a Sunday morning breakfast as the kids come down the stairs, put it on album. More so than it is, I'm going to go through. There's a couple skips and get it. I think it's just like a scene setting thing. And so you asked me what I think about deeper well. And I think that the song is, I mean, I want, there's a lot of white woman's Instagram.

Yes. For me on this song and this whole album. Like, white woman, white woman's Instagram. Oh, your Saturn has returned. Your Saturn and Ariana Grande, Saturn and Adele's Saturn and my Saturn and all of our all of our Saturns are returning and we all go to therapy and that's great I am a fan but like it's like is this part of the white woman white woman's Instagram it's like okay we're getting into sound baths now and crystals is this the journey that

every well-to-do white woman goes through when she turns 35 is it all being reflected here I'm you know I maybe I'm giving up the drums. By which you mean we all start worrying about death, right? Because that's what this is about. That's what this whole thing is kind of about. But instead of the partying stuff and, you know, half of golden hour, she was on LSD. Now she's, we'll talk more about it. Maybe she's smoking less pot. She's more focused on. Less pot, more mushrooms. I mean, maybe she did a lot of ayahuasca for this record. I don't know. But it is more of just like, a vibe than it is anything else. And I, I, there's just a lot of white women's Instagram. Yes. Which is why. And I agree with you that like biggest hit is in some ways not the way to talk about. No.

Casey, because it's just not the language in which she's really interacted with the public in general, but even her public. Yeah. That said, I do think, first of all, I think they're. I think there are songs, I'll save which ones for now. But I think there are songs in this album that are grabby. Yeah, there's one or two for me, for sure. I guess what I would say.

And I don't think that this, look, I don't think this album will have, I don't think it's going to win album of the year. No. I don't think that it's going to be Golden Hour. I think, I wonder if eventually in the full context of Casey Musgraves's career, what this album feels like to me is a little bit of a palette. cleanser and a little bit of a reset. And a very effective one.

Yes. A very effective one. It has a place as a jewel in her crown. But I think it will live on in the background. I don't know that anybody's going to flip out over this album. But I think you said it very well. A palette cleanser is what this feels like for me. It does that very effectively.

And a really good one that like if you give it the time has a lot to offer. I would just say that that's not so wildly different than what happened with Golden Hour. Other than the fact that it was just so critically beloved and so rewarded with that Grammy's win that it did take on a little bit of a scope to it, you know, to borrow a song title, that album in terms of people really falling in love with it was also a slow burn. And this album, I think, will probably also be a slow burn. I'm just not sure it has one of those songs on it. But what I mean

But like Rainbow is an amazing song And I too am touched by it Every time I hear it It breaks me down But Rainbow didn't Like is Rainbow your song For that off of Golden Hour?

I mean, what do you mean? My song that I think it's like a legendary epics I think butterflies High Horse High Horse I don't know This is no shade on Rainbow

I think Rainbow is an amazing song I don't know how many people are like man, remember Rainbow? What a song when they talk about Golden Hour. You know who is? This guy. Yeah, you, you. He's got two thumbs. This guy. I just, look, the whole record for me has really interesting melodies. Again, Slow Burn is a great example. A lot of the songs on this record sound like Slow Burn. I just think the melodies are transcended on Slow Burn. And I think the lyrics are a bit more interesting on Slow Burn. burn and a bit more reflective.

And, you know, there's some songs on this where she's got a verse and a half or two and a half verses where it almost felt like these were ideas, not fully formed songs that because of the energy in the studio and she's talked about walking through Bryant Park on her way to Electric Lady's studio and how she sort of took in all the chaos of New York and then got in this room. And that sort of helped her create something. It was simple. And I do think, like, this record could be performed in a living room by a quartet.

But my question is, like, how does it actually play in arenas? Goldenauer had Velvet Elvis, by the way. Velvet Elvis, great song. Love Velvet Elvis. High Horse, which could almost be a Duolipa song, among others that Slaps. StarCross had breadwinner and a few more. But this is not an arena. Dual Lepa Cover High Horse Challenge.

You heard it here first. It could. But this is not an arena tour. album. And so it's going to be interesting to see how it is received as she goes out and plays some bigger venues. She's definitely, you know, in her own words, been in her sort of cottage core moment. I believe her phrase, I have it written down here, soft nature cottage witch. Okay. That's the era that Casey says she's in. Maybe she can borrow the, you know, the folklore house, whatever, the woodhouse from Taylor when it's not in use.

This woman does not need another house. This woman does not need to move again. Fair enough. I think this is, again, a beautiful, beautiful album. And I think we should talk about some of the songs that, you know, if not the biggest hit, what you think the best songs are on this record. Because I do think we can go back and forth. There's some really interesting moments.

I just, instead of focusing on the, detail. This is one of those like walk outside and like squint to the point where everything is blurry and just take in, take in the air and take in the sun and take in the sounds that you hear, the detail is less important than the general palette. Let's talk about our favorite songs. I think there's a little bit more in the detail than maybe you do. So an interesting thing for me is that when I listened to this album as a whole, when I just did it as a vibe, like you're talking about. One thing that I found really appealing

was kind of this, oh, it's slightly back to roots. It's a little bit more acoustic than Star Cross. She's coming through more. That's great. And then I go to do my favorite songs. And the two songs that I'm really drawn to are lonely millionaire and anime eyes.

Oh! Which are the two fucking poppiest songs on this entire record. Yes. You can step off a plane into a black car You can pay them to wait So now I don't know what to do with myself But those are my favorites

I mean I mean it seems like she could have wrapped lonely millionaire Totally The hook on that song is an interpolation Of that song by J.I.D., Cody Blue 31 And I feel like she should have sung this song Like JID and it would have been awesome The cater to, I put in my notes, the way that she says the money and the diamonds and the things that shine is that's, that's, that's a bar.

Like the way that she delivers that has low. And it is not, I mean, we're not in, you know, Toto, we're not in Nashville anymore. Like that is a modern cadence and way of delivering song lyrics. And the melody is also just like hooky. I mean, the rhythm is great is really R&B. but it's that had a melody that that sunk its teeth into me. Yeah, well, because she interpolated it to be fair. But anime eyes is the same thing.

I think you're right. She could have skewed that even more pop. I think it's one of the best on the album. I'm with you. When I look at you, I'm always looking through. I guess I just would say, are we sure she's not doing drugs? The outro is weird. It's like Lucy and this guy with Diamond's vibe.

Totally. To be very clear, Nathan, she's doing drugs. She's just not smoking a lot of pot anymore. She's not waking and baking. She used to wake and bake. Her gravity bong is. We'll get into that. I got it. We'd save that for me because I got a lot of questions for you. I think the gravity bong is in a drawer somewhere. She doesn't throw it out. It's all of the same. She made it. What do you mean she made a grab? What did how do you? I got questions. She explained to Allison P. Davis. the cut. She, she, um, it was like a water bottle and she cut it in half and then there was some sort of, some sort of, some sort of feet of engineering. I don't know. Like a water bottle, like a, like one of those cups, those, those, what are they called? The, the metal cups? No, like a, like a, like a, like a, like a, like a, a, like a, a desani water bottle. Oh, God. You never see? Okay, now we're really doing college. Yeah, no, but we are, but now I understand, but I just thought it would have been something more like elegant or like meaningful than like a half plastic bottle.

No, I think it was a half plastic water bottle. Really? Yeah, how it was just this change your voice? And that made the song? Yes. Really? Do you, what would you prefer that she'd had some sort of like bespoke? I thought it was like a Stanley Cup, you know?

Like maybe she'd create or, yeah, some wooden thing that was like a piece of art. Stanley Cup right here. It is hydrating me on this very podcast. I have absolute, like, no. Well, first of all, Stanley Cubs are indestructible. There was the fire in the person's car and it survived. I don't know. I just want to say.

I hate to break it to you. It was like a Desani water bottle sawed and half smushed into an apple core or something. Well, but they're like, how did she, the gravity bong that she made, like, how long did she keep that thing around? Clearly a long time. It's in an apple car. It rotted and stuff. I don't know. I think maybe. I made up the apple thing. I made up an apple. Okay. All right, fine. That's what you have under your bed. I, she just, I thought this was maybe like an interesting, you know,

piece of carved, you know, carved out of like jade crystals or something that she'd created. But no, you're telling me it's like trash. Plastic gravity bong was then. It's called growth, Nathan. White woman. anime eyes is cool and I felt like there was a little bit more to it. It's actually emblematic of how I feel about some of the songs on this record, which is that really interesting ideas, cool stuff, really cool concept, threw me with the end.

At least there's some cool creativity in there, not that there aren't on other songs. I just thought she could have leaned more into what the song might have been. I would like to hear somebody cover anime eyes. I think it feels a little bit restrained. strained and unfinished in service of keeping the vibes. I think it's, it doesn't feel unfinished to me. I do, it, it surprises you at the end with how it builds through that, you know, you get that cool guitar solo and then it goes into the bridge.

Yeah. The backing vocals with the vocoder are sick. Like, I, I, I think that's a cool twist and that is the type of electronic trick that you're not getting a ton of. And that was part of what kind of threw me when I started thinking about what my real favorites were because it makes so much sense to me that the direction that she went in for this album was to pair back and show a lot of restraint

after having StarCross to not be super successful. And all the clues that she's giving us, I mean, you know, the Noa-Con the working with Zach Bryan You know, she's she's gonna go on tour She's bringing Father John Misty Like it all feels like it's building to this very sort of

Folk Pop acoustic friendly Like we're in the woods Kind of vibe And then my two favorite songs Were the least that Well So I don't quite know what to make of it Well you're gonna have to make of what my two favorite songs were

Okay please My favorite song in this album is The Architect. Cool. A subtle, is there a God song? She performed this on Fallon, and I thought that that performance was way stronger than what the songs that she did on SNL. She did deeper well. She did too good to be true.

Simple and somehow complex, sweet and divine, perfect design. Can I speak to the architect? I just thought the performance. was really great of the architect. I don't understand why she's wearing a bonnet and we'll come back to that. But I love the architect. That one feels like really,

I just, I love the imagery. I love metaphor. I love everything about that song. I really also like nothing to be scared of. I think it's the second best. There's nothing to be scared. And I was like, why, what do I like about?

this song. Here's the reason that I didn't pick it. This song sounds a lot like story of my life by one direction. It sounds a lot like that song. And I was like, oh, God, that's why I like this song, because it's story of my life. It's the same thing that I got excited about with the first song, which is Cardinal. Where I was listening to it and I was like, wait a minute, I'm sort of into this,

but what am I actually hearing? And then I was like, oh shit, it's the more cowbell song. It's Don't Fear the Reaper by Blue Oyster Cult. Stop it. Yes, it is.

And she is an S&L darling, but I was like, oh, man, that's what I'm getting from this. So the bookends of this album are deeply, familiar to me, and I think that's why I like them. But that's really why for me, the architect, I just thought was the best written song on the record. So it's interesting, it's interesting to me

that you are, you are identifying, I would say three of the core, like, creationism, existentialism, what happens when we die songs? Yeah, fair enough. That's the vibe. It's an interesting, woman. Well, but so, so when we talk about that, which is a very palpable feeling on this album. Yeah. I got to say that like it, those songs really work for me because I do think, I think a criticism that has been levied at this album and I think on to some extent fairly is that it's a little disappointing to not hear her engage with.

with anything outside of herself and either the four walls around her or, you know, the lack of walls if she's outdoors. Casey Musgraves is someone who came up taking really pointed and cheeky and fun and subversive shots at conservative establishment politics in Nashville and elsewhere. and her perspective on gay rights and just the world was really attractive. And I shouldn't use the past tense week. It is really attractive. And she's just had such a sharp tongue when she comments on those things in her songs. And she doesn't do a lot of that here. It's a lot of my personal self-care journey.

And within that context, I really like. the songs about death because it just feels a little bit more profound and a little bit more like meaty than I got to I got to learn to slow down so that I can relax at the end of the day with a warm bath. So I do have to say like the is there an architect felt very grabby sort of intellectually to me and it felt like a good premise. and a good and a thing that I was interested in hearing from from Casey on that didn't get to woo-woo on an album when in general we are getting a little bit woo-woo. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm right there with you. I'm a little less interested musically in those songs, although I do. I like Cardinal a lot. I like that. Although now I'm afraid that I will never be able to listen to it again without hearing the cowbell sketch. But I do like that sort of folk rock vibe to it. I like the tempo change at the bridge. And it is sort of, it's, it's the, are you bringing me a message from the other side?

I do, I, I, I am interested in hearing Casey Musgraves sing about death. Well, here it is. Look, you got it on dinner with friends, too. Yes. She definitely talks about that. The architect for me, the chorus melody, I think, is wonderful. And in particular, the first half of the chorus. Was it thought out at all just paying on the wall?

I love the melody there. Yeah, no, I agree with that. That stood out for me apart from the rest of the record. I also, I mean, let's remember this woman, She had a house with her ex-husband, Russ and Kelly, also a country artist, sold it when they got divorced in 2020. She buys a new house,

renovates it, does an architectural digest tour with it, and then immediately sells it to Kelsey Ballerini, who has also at this point just gotten divorced and therefore moves into the house to heal in it in the same way. Casey says that she does, did, but also says that she never quite felt settled there.

She now lives in some cottage somewhere in Nashville, I think. She's been moving. She's been renovating. And within that context, the architect element of that, I just think is sort of funny. I feel like she's had a couple contractors in the last five years or so. Anything else that stuck out? I do like deeper well. It sounds like you don't really like deeper well.

I like deeper well. I do like deeper well. Okay. I do like deeper well. It's just I can't get away from is this is this what happens when you turn 35ish? When I turn 27, everything started to change. Yeah. No, it, I mean, that's what it is though. And here's the thing.

Like, is there a lens through the which that's a little annoying? Of course. We're all pretty annoying. I do buy it. Like, I do think that she's definitely in the sound bath. She's done, she's done 35 sound baths in the last 365 baths. She's done transcendental meditation. She's got her, you know.

She got a lot of crystals. This woman must have a crystal collection to rival. I don't know who. But yeah. So it does feel right. It feels, it feels true. Now, is there a, all right, keep it. yourself, Casey, that comes into play every, every so often, perhaps.

But I definitely, it feels authentic. Well, so what would you cut? What would I cut? All right. This one, I had to think about this. I did not. You did not at all. I do think this might be a little bit different if I did more mushrooms or any

mushrooms, to be honest. I don't need sway. Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, I thought the vocal chorus at the end serves as a reminder of how sparse the arrangements are. Sure. It shouldn't be jarring.

It's not like it's an electric guitar or something, but it is. And it does sound like a sound bath to me at the end. Well, right, exactly. So if I ever do a sound bath, I would be happy to listen to that song while I do a sound bath. I'm not sure I have any use for it otherwise, and I don't do a lot of sound baths.

Why do you need heart of the woods? I don't. And that's another one where like, again. Heart of the woods. The door is right over there. Where the plants come to life and start communicating. No, I don't really need heart of the woods. I just think it's so weird and trippy.

Like, Sway is a song to do drugs to that doesn't go to an 11. Heart of the Woods is a song to do drugs to that goes to like a fifth. And I chose to respect it for that. I don't know. It just didn't. It's short. It feels not formed. It just felt a little too like, oh, yeah, nature.

Yeah. Instead of something like really purposeful. Heaven is. I like Heaven is. It feels like a song from a Shakespearean play, but it's not a fully formed idea to me. So I didn't love Heaven is. Yeah, I liked the, so it's interpolating a Scottish folk song.

And I did like that sort of Celtic vibe to it. It slots in well. Yeah. This whole record feels like the color green to me. My sister has synesthesia. That one has the nobody knows where we go and we die. Right. And again, I just think she really wanted to go there.

But that's not a song that. This is the white horse riding thing. I don't know. It just didn't, lyrically didn't grab. That's not a song that I'm going to be revisiting. No, but again, it's a vibe. It's a vibe. My sister has synesthesia, and so everything she sees is like, thinks about says has a color associated with it.

And this whole record for me, it just is green all the way through. Which makes it even funnier that she came up with it and recorded it in New York City. But, I mean, all the aesthetics of the album art are green and we're in fields. And so I think, I think that is coming from. a real place. I have to say, the Grammy commercial was weird. And I don't think it's her fault at all.

But it got so, it is the peak example for me of how Taylor just took the oxygen out of the room and not in a great way that night. Because there was a moment, like a lot of money got spent on that ad. And it sort of announced this thing that, was coming, and it just got completely eviscerated. Between that and the speculation around Beyonce and the hat and everything,

I just think it ended up... Love that hat? No. Yeah, I mean, we love the hat. But it just, there was something about that that just got sort of washed away. And so what I'm trying to hold space for is that this record, listen, it debuted at number two, right, behind Eternal Sunshine by Ariana, which we're going to talk about

as a part of this journey. So it was her highest charting album, and a lot of that is in large part thanks to vinyl, so you really shouldn't think a whole lot about the numbers on the chart and what they mean. Thank you, Billy Eilish, for making that point not too long ago. But I try to hold space for this record. As much as I'm sort of poking at some of the things around the edges,

I do think that just like as a back soundtrack, this is a, it is a lovely piece of art. I really found myself the more I listened to it, digging some of the songs that we've talked about, getting a little bit more into the lyrics, getting a little bit more, I don't know, maybe she's catching on to me. Maybe I, maybe I'm inching ever closer

to becoming a sound draft person. The more I listen to it. I'm getting you crystals for Christmas. No, oh my God. No, we can't, we can't go down that path even. It's nothing wrong with it if people are into it. But did you like Too Good to Be True? So, okay.

The first few times I listened to Too Good to Be True. I did. I really liked it. Please don't be too good to be true. And I found myself moved by it in a way that I couldn't really explain. Like I was brought to tears by that song multiple times. And I couldn't really. figure out why it like it brings up new york and that's always something that kind of gets me and i'm

like what's going on here and then and then i realized i think genuinely what is going on there which is that that song interpolates the song breathe which is used in the bomb episode of gray's anatomy let's go meredith georgian is he shouldn't have to move out of the house No. Oh, God. And I really do think I had like a Pavlovian thing that went on where I started crying. By the way, this album is for fans of Grey's Anatomy, the bomb episode, for sure.

Yes. Yes. This album is for season 21 of Grey's Anatomy. Well, I mean, the bomb is, the bomb episode is, oh, gee, Grace Anatomy. The bomb episode is like, I mean, Kyle Chandler is like the, the guy who comes in to what why can't I come up with the acronym SWAT team he's like the SWAT team guy and he's there and Meredith has her hand on the bomb and she has to take it out and he's like I want you to pretend I'm someone I like and then she imagines Derek and then Derek is in the operating room because Bailey is giving birth and her husband Tucker is hit by a car and he's maybe going to die

but then he's okay it's just an intense moment and then Lexi sings that song when they do the musical episode. Anyway. Did it bother you that Casey was wearing a quilt when she sang on SNL? She was wearing a quilt and she was barefoot. And then in the second song, the second song, she's holding a guitar, but she's not playing it. I didn't, the art and the creative direction of that performance. Thumbs down. I did like, I did like the Fallon performance in a few of us. others better. But I don't, I just have to, why was she wearing a bonnet?

I'm going to come back to it because I, I have to. She's just doing, like, she's doing, it's a little bit of like, that was like a vintage, like a vintage Ralph Lauren thing a little bit. She's doing like an Etsy faux vintage core thing. It's like the Willow performance, but not as witchy. And it mixes in like, I don't know. Betsy Ross. It's just white woman's Instagram, Nathan. It's fine. It's okay.

She's just, it's a vibe. She's curating a vibe. Yeah. Yeah. Are there any other songs that would have, that bubbled up for you? I mean, moving out, sounds like a song. My crappy band wrote,

Give or Taker, I thought was really sweet. It just didn't land with me. I liked Givertaker. I thought Givertaker, I like that melody. That was like a little bit stickier for me. Moving out, I think the references, I like the story of it more than I like the music of it. Yeah. I think I'm mostly with you in that the ones that I really was sort of like, I don't quite know what's going on here.

we're sway in heart of the woods. Jade Green. Again, I like the story. I don't know how much I'll go back to that. Right. Good vibe. Dinner with Friends. I really enjoyed too good to be true.

Yeah. Well, that's the record. I mean, that is the record. I really liked this album. Is there a peak Casey moment? I mean, the peak Casey moment's got to be the gravity bong that I made. That I made. Even the whole thing.

I mean, just the, like, it has, the Saturn Return thing does feel like a core part of how she's trying to frame the story of this album. And what I will say for her is that in some ways, I find this to be an album that I really, really like. but don't quite know how to categorize or how to how to sort of laud in a way that reflects how much I enjoy it. Because in some ways, I think it's really admirable and how restrained it is and some of the choices and some of the details. And I do think that there are interesting details. It doesn't, it doesn't sound like a particularly ambitious place to go. She's mostly returning to things that have worked for her. and it's a pretty restrained piece of work.

What I will say is that I think some of that has to do with the fact that the therapistized, self-care obsessed, vibe aesthetics that she's using a lot of are popular in part because of her. Like Casey was in a lot of ways, like when Casey started doing this stuff, and particularly that being a time when she was more connected to the heart of country music and more connected to Nashville than I think she is now. Most other like female country music was pretty like bombastic almost and not this foky, calm. blist out vibe more Carrie Underwood yeah

that has been her aesthetic since before everybody did that yeah okay and I'm not saying that like that she is where

that totally came from she's the OG country Karen that's funny it's a funny nickname I just I think she wears it honestly is I suppose I do too I do too so I do too

so I do too So I do like the, I think deeper well is definitely Pete Casey. I mean, the gravity bong, the, I'm not smoking weed every day. I used to wake and bake. But that's why I think, I mean, her most important. It is. Also, like, here's the thing is that, and I suppose I wonder how this will evolve if she is no longer waking and baking. Casey is always like, one of the things I love about her is that she walks this fine line between kind of poignant and wise and a little bit stupid.

Like the, some of her lyrics sound like what you would say when you're high out of your mind and are just like, well, you guys like, do you know it's morning and Beijing right now? That's crazy how time zones work. No, you know what? You're right. I would reframe it as high from stupid. I saw her interview. She did an interview with Zane Lowe where she whipsawed from like really generic platitude, snoozy stuff in the beginning to by the end of the interview, she was really deep and insightful about her process and the way she thinks about albums sort of still being in the womb before they come out. Like she has this depth. And that's what got me like. I wanted more of that from her on this record. And I know that that's maybe not what it was intended to do. But I come away from this feeling like she is capable of even more than this. And I get why this is where it is. And I like the album.

But I believe that Casey Musgraves, I know in my heart of hearts that she is capable of even more than this. And so when we get to most important collaborator, I feel the same way about this that I do. about some of the other pop stars who are going back to the same collaborators. Because the stuff that Casey did with

Zach Brian with Noah Khan really interesting. Right? She came back to the same producers that she did Golden Hour with, right? Daniel Tashian and Ian Fitchuk. Who she's basically worked with primarily

since Golden Hour. She had more sort of tried and true country producers for her first two albums and has continued to work with those folks, but Ian Fitchuk and Daniel Tashian have primarily done her production, been her core collaborators since Golden Hour and were on this record as well. And this record sounds like the four of them in a room recording. And that's nice. But, you know, I think her most important collaborator is actually drugs and whatever. Whatever.

her thing of choices in the moment. I want her to get a little bit more... How can you say that? And not understand that that means you're getting more hard of the woods? I think because she can rotate through some other drugs. Again, she was on LSD while she made some of a golden hour. And she was... Look, for a while, it was a little Miley-esque.

You know when Miley went through her big, like, Hey, everybody, I'm smoking weed. Isn't this cool? I'm smoking. Like, there was that, phase where it was a little too much. But I think part of what she's telling us on Deeper Well is that she's figured out how to regulate and that's fine.

I just, I would like to see more experimentation. I would like on the next album to see Casey go a little harder on some songs and push it out, you know, give us a little bit more that's going to hold up in an arena because I think she's capable of that. This feels like a comfortable record. And maybe that's what she needed in that moment.

So where is your name? next album appetizer. I didn't hear it. You tell me. What did you hear? I think it's in the collaborations. I think it's what she's doing with Zach Brian or what she did with Noah. I think that's probably right.

And that's what I wrote down to just because I would, I would, I like those collaborations and I do think they're interesting. To me, I actually wound up feeling like I would get most excited about trying to argue that

anime eyes or lonely millionaire those songs that felt a little bit more like they were drawing from poppier spaces sort of R&B fluent spaces she's listening to that music well right and I would love to make you an argument

that that means that that's where she's going and I think that would be very cool I would like to see her try a little bit of the star-crossed thing again but on a little bit more on her terms Yes. That said, I don't think those collabs and I don't think who she's taking out on this tour,

I can't really tell you that I think those things point in that direction. So I'll hold space for both possibilities, but I think if I had to bet on it, I would say that I think you're probably right. If I was her manager, I would tell her you've got an incredible, you've got an incredible career. you are an incredibly talented artist. It is all there for you. You've built this wonderful foundation.

And if you want now, for the next 20 years to be able to tour whenever you want, to do whatever, like, let's experiment, let's push ourselves. Let's try some new collaborators. Let's take this amazing talent and go. Who would you line up? Who would you put, like, say where that goes is,

let's just try some stuff with a bunch of people. Is it, do you call? Jack? Do you call Benny Blanco? Like, who are the names? I go, I go in that direction. I go with Kid Harpoon. I go, I go to somebody like that who's been thinking about taking, who brings a whole bunch of really interesting ideas. Not that, not that her current collaborators don't bring ideas. I just, you know, Casey, the word on the street in Nashville is that Casey knows what she wants. She is a lovely human

being she can through her creative process at times be difficult to work with. And that to me is a wonderful sign because it means that she doesn't, she won't settle, right? And that she'll, she'll be pushed. I also notice that like, if you go back and look at the rainbow performance at the Grammys, she's nervous as hell. And there are moments where she talks about, even coming out for the promo for this album, makes her uncomfortable. And sometimes for an artist, that's where the good stuff is. I would like to see her less comfortable in an overarchingly safe creative space, safe creative environment, and get pushed a little bit to see what falls out. Yeah, I think that would be, I would be really curious to see what came out of that.

Because I ended up, look, I think there's really no right answer other than Ian and Daniel for most important collaborator. And I think that's effective. I mean, look, Again, I think Starcrossed was considered a bit of a misstep and probably within her management, within the team around her didn't end up the way that they'd hoped. And I give her credit and probably some other folks who are working with her credit for sticking with people that she knows and cares about and likes to work with and appreciates to make this album. And in the way that, you know, said it a few times, this really sounds. like a Casey Musgraves record in a way that StarCross only sometimes did. And I think that was important. But at the same time, it does end in a place that's maybe a little bit too comfortable.

And I do, I do agree with you. It's that end of the forest thing. And you can hear it on this record a little bit. Get Amogen Heap. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's try some things. Let's get some ladies in the mix.

That would be nice. Let's try some things. Best lyric? Oh, you know, we never did. Sorry, we never did notable Easter egg. And I do need to point out that, and this is when I say, I felt like the details of this unspooled in a way that was pleasing to me. Dinner with friends.

Yeah. Being a reference to the Nora Ephron list essay, things I'll miss, things I won't miss. Right. Which she wrote very sick with cancer and was in one of her books that Casey has been reading a lot of Nora Ephron and felt inspired by Dinner with Friends as a line from that list. And Casey ends up sort of making her own list on the song. Dinner with Friends and Cities Were Nuff.

I just thought that was cool. I thought it was a cool reference. I thought it was poignant. Well, my favorite lyric of the album comes from that song. Oh, lay it on me. Well, I mean, maybe this is PKCT, but I thought my home state of Texas, the sky there, the horses and dogs, but none of their laws. Yeah. The things I would miss from the other side.

Yeah. She's sticking true. Yeah. That's, that is, that is a, if you gave that to me. blind. I'd say it's Casey, right? I'd say that's a Casey Musgraves line. And now obviously there's autobiographical details in there. But the ethos of that is so Casey Marks graves. And it's a bar. It's a great line. Yeah. I thought it was great. I felt I felt tempted by the gravity bong. Of course. Who would be? Everyone's tempted by the gravity bong.

Perhaps Casey included. Nathan, I think it's time for us to grade this album. highway You want me to go? Yeah, I do. So I give it a B plus. Okay. Like a B like really a B like plus plus. It's not a real great.

But. Okay. There's a lot to like. And I really, I think that I will return to to these songs. Yeah. I will return to the album. I will return to the architect.

I think there aren't songs on here that flipped me. and for that reason I gave it a B. But I give it a loving B. And in part I give it a B because I know. That's even bigger than a B plus plus. No, it's not. It's because it's good. It's enjoyable.

It's not a throwaway mess at all. This is a good album. But it's just good. And I think that Casey has greatness in her. She has exhibited that before. And I believe that she has more. left to do that will be something that at least I personally will glom on to the individual songs in a way that this didn't. And again, I am not a 35-year-old white woman.

White woman. Like, I'm not. So I get it. But I feel like this is an important album in her journey. I'm interested in her personal narrative. It has a jewel in the crown for, sure. The next one is a big one, and I can't wait to see what she does because she is an incredible talent as a singer, as a songwriter. Like you said, there are things that are just uniquely Casey, where you hear the voice. There's an intimacy that is unparalleled. She hasn't, she has never foregone that. There's a way of writing and turn of phrase that is uniquely Casey. I'm excited for where she goes from here. Well said. All right, that's Casey Musk, Chris, a steeper well. Well, really good album, album with a lot to unpack, especially on a second or third listen,

an album that may suffer a little bit from maybe a touch of a lack of ambition, a touch of white woman's Instagram syndrome, but is Casey to the core and sets us up in a place where we're really excited to see what she does next. This has been every single album. I'm Nora Pinciotti. As always, he's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you so much to Isaiah Blakely for producing this episode. Thank you to Kai McMullen for her additional production work and to you for listening.

We will be back next week.