Every Single Album - 'Eternal Sunshine' | Every Single Album: Ariana Grande

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

At long last, Nora and Nathan cover Ariana Grande's 'Eternal Sunshine,' her seventh studio album. They talk about how this album seems to be lacking the viral hits that 'Sweetener' and 'Thank U, Next' had (1:00), whether this is a divorce album or if it's actually about Grande's relationship with the press (22:38), and the classic Max Martin production that can be found throughout the record (1:07:36). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey. Hey. Hey. Can I talk to you guys for a second? Sure. Over 25 years ago, on September 29, 1999, we watched a brainy girl with curly hair drop everything to follow a guy

she only kind of knew all the way to college. And so began Felicity, the brainchild of J.J. Abrams and Matt Reeves, starring Carrie Russell. And me, Greg Grunberg, a.k.a. Sean Blumberg. It won't be confusing at all. And me, Amanda Foreman,

a.k.a. Felicity's roommate with the box. And I'm Juliette Litman. I was not on Felicity, but I remember every moment of it, probably better than these two do. All together, we'll be revisiting our favorite moments from the show and talking to the people who help shape it. We talked to Carrie Russell, of course, because she's the best. And also Scott Speedman and Scott Foley. I was team Scott. I just want to lay that out there right now. And we also talked to JJ and Matt, the two brains behind this amazing series. And many more people who work behind the scenes. in front of the camera. From Bad Robot Audio and The Ringer, this is Dear Felicity.

Listen to Dear Felicity on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Princiotti. I'm here, as always, with the one and only Nathan Hubbard. And if the pod sounds a little bit like I'm speaking in lowercase right now, that's for a very special reason, which is that at long last, it is time. on Pop Girl Spring to talk about Ariana Grande and Eternal Sunshine. Nathan, it's been a long time coming getting to do this episode.

Last minute update. I got to go get a sandwich. So my apologies to Ariana Grande. We're going to have to do this next week. You started this before we hit record and you said that you were preparing to do battle. So I'm still a little bit shaking from that. What's about to happen today? We're talking about, okay, hold on, hold on, hold on.

Let's just like, let's introduce the people to the podcast. We're talking about Eternal Sunshine. It's Ariana's seventh studio album. Came out in March. So it's been a minute. We are talking about it in May for no other reason than, first of all, this was one of the, there's a lot going on at the moment. Yes.

This was an early release in a packed pop girl spring. I believe this album was out before we started before we were like, we got to get our acts together and do some stuff. So not remotely intentional, but then things kept coming fast and furious and it became sort of a bit that we were just like never going to find time to do this episode. But we're here now. And I said that when we were on Zoom just before starting recording because you were like, are we going to do this? Are we really going to do this? And I am I am ready to fight. I'm ready to like, I'm just coming to a place where I feel like a re-evaluation of this album is needed.

I'm not quite sure what that is. I hope we're going to figure it out. Can I just lay something on you before we like dig in and actually go through this? Fine. I think this is Ariana's reputation. Whoa. This album is Ariana Grande's reputation. I mean, why did you lead with that?

I say that for a few reasons. One being, and this is the part that I think we, that like I'm hoping you can help me figure out. So because Max Martin is all over it? Okay. Yes. That's actually not an insignificant piece of the equation of the similarities here. But first of all, I think this is an album where when we talk about the release in March, and how people processed this record when it first came out,

particularly after having yes and be the first single. Do you mean? I think this is an album that had a little bit of a head fake, where that song tonally does not reflect a lot of the lyrical quality and the material that makes up most of the album. You get this kind of... That song is Vogue by Madonna. So if you were expecting the rest of the Madonna album,

maybe that would have done it. But you are right that this isn't like a fully injected house dance album, right? So you think that's what that was? But it's also not like the kiss-off album that that song is. Because that song, like, yes and is doing a little bit of... It's filling a little bit of a thing. Thank you next sized. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a good point. It's a good point. I mean, first of all, do you think this is a divorce album? So this is what I'm going to get to. Is it a divorce album or is it a... I'm dating SpongeBob album. I think it's both.

I think it is also a little bit slyly an album that is pretty heavily about her relationship with the press. And it's an album that like one... Okay. let's get there, let's go, I'm like giving you a lot. I know, but let me get there's a, yeah, I am, whoa. Let me cook. Keep cooking.

And I think first of all, if you just, if you take all the pointers from the first single alone, you wouldn't expect the rest of that. And then when you really listen, it takes you on this journey that, yes, it does have a little bit of like, you know, get off my case about SpongeBob guy. Right. That's certainly a theme here. Never is my answer. Yeah, unfortunately never.

What? It's going on. But I also think that the music here is like unbelievably good and polished and listenable and fun. And I wonder if this album, because I feel like this album, even though like the numbers are actually. pretty big. Like a lot of people

are listening to this. It feels like it was a contentious release. Like the stuff about possible infidelity and what were the timelines and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was all very tabloidy in a way that got pretty negative. I didn't realize this until I started

going back and doing the prep for this pod, but she like lost a bunch of social media followers and was like releasing statements. And it was all pretty charged. And I wonder if that contributed to like, this album got pretty good reviews, but to me, and I can't come up with a real way to quantify this, it didn't feel like it really like captured the zeitgeist. Again, it's possible that I'm comparing it to thank you next in a way that's just sort of like,

that's a hard, hard bar to clear. But it's not, is it? It's not. I think you're making an important point. my everything dangerous woman sweetener thank you next have absolute pierced through the noise of culture smashes like iconic little girls in dance competitions around the country always dance to an ariana grande song like you can't that's how i found out about ariana Grande. Like, it just, it, it, it's every single place that you go. She has these songs. And you are making

it. And this album doesn't have that. It doesn't have it. It doesn't quite have it. And there is no doubt that coming in, she was on the verge of a cancelable moment. And one of the interesting things that I want to talk to you about through the course of this podcast is how big is Ariana Grande, really? Like, how big of a star is she? Because the numbers, to your point, she is the most streamed artist of the 2010s.

Period. She has, and just off the charts, streaming stuff. Her tours... She's not as big as Taylor in terms of monthly streams. But she's, like, kind of in the ballpark.

I think it's like 85, 85 million monthly on Spotify. I looked at this today and was kind of like, oh, I'm surprised she's that close. And then Taylor's like 115. It's obviously a lot more, but it's that. Yeah. That's like a similar stratosphere in a way that for someone who does not, like the way that we talk about Taylor Swift and Beyonce right now.

And Beyonce obviously is not doing the streaming numbers. Actually, even that Ariana is doing, but certainly not that Taylor is doing. We don't include Ariana in that conversation. And I don't, in a weird way, there's this like, there's like a silent, not majority, but silent, huge group of people who are just streaming the fuck out of Ariana Grande. Well, it's because I think this woman makes hits,

not albums, would be the... Okay, this is an album. This is an album without a... And I don't want to say it's an album without a hit because there are hits. There just aren't like, thank you next level hits. I think you're making the point. It's just like Taylor, some of the other,

artists that we cover have historically made albums, but they have not had 15 songs stream over a billion on Spotify. Ariana has that, but doesn't have albums where people are like, okay, start to back, well, she's obviously got a pretty big fan base that I want to talk to you about as well. But they aren't albums that, you know, people are like, I can't wait for the Ariana album to drop. I can't wait for the Ariana song. I am a dangerous woman stand and I think that's an album

Well that's because almost every song on there Smashes Well yeah An album of top to bottom hits It's still an album Yeah yeah It just doesn't feel as cohesive And narrative as this one does

And I think there's intention In the sequence here There's intention in We should talk about the intention In the lyric side I mean, I, look, I come into this record, like, still, my brain's completely scrambled from 34, 35, right? From the, from positions. I mean, I just, yeah.

She says it. She tells you what the song's about. Yeah, no, my brain scrambled, meaning like, no, shit. Yeah. I just, like, that was a very provocative, let's go as far to. the left as we can kind of album. And then it's been four years, so fine. But this one, against the backdrop of a whole lot of relational drama in the press, and then, by the way, after immediately doing a little bit of promo for it, it feels like she's back to her real focus,

which is wicked. Wicked. The wonderful Wizard of Oz summons you to the Emerald City Come with me What? To beat the wizard I couldn't puzzle me This is your moment

I'm coming Yeah And so I don't know where this one sits And as I unpack the songs Like Yeah I mean I'll I don't want to save it for the end

But I look I appreciate that this is a confessional divorce album I also think she's had a lot of trauma in her life, from her parents' divorce, from the death of Mac Miller, from the bombing at her Manchester concert, from just like speaking to Pete Davidson, much less being engaged to Pete Davidson,

from her own divorce, and now from dating SpongeBob in a tabloid heavy thing where the timing certainly has been in question, right? So from afar, it still feels like she's figuring out who she is, and, What I'm interested in on this record is whether the Saturn returning thing and a divorce album is like real and authentic and that this was like an important piece of art for her.

Or if after four years she made 35 minutes injected a little bit of her truth into it but didn't go as hard at creating something that just bangs in the way that her previous work does. Oh, see, that's interesting because I feel like, you know, I don't claim at all to know this about her as a human person. But I feel like as it pertains to her artistic intent, I think Ariana knows exactly who she is. You do? I think she, yeah, I think she. And this is not to compare the various traumas, right? Like, this is a woman who was a literal victim of a terrorist attack. She's been through things that are just so abnormal.

Yes. Even outside things that unfortunately are a little bit more normal, though still dramatic in her life and has worked them into the art. And I've always felt like at least for the last since Sweetener, she's honed in on this ideal that to me is really compelling of taking hardship and legit. and legitimate trauma and approaching it and addressing it, but doing it in this way that's so light and so generous. Generous. Which I think she's found a way to do, yeah. Define that.

Like, what do you mean in generous? You know, even, okay, take the concept of sweetener, right? It's about finding light and joy and healing. and the tone of that album is very, it's bright, it's airy. It doesn't feel heavy in the way that the things that she's processing are incredibly heavy. And the sort of less meaningful, I guess, end of the spectrum. Even something like, Thank you Next is about, You know, it's sort of about showing grace to all of the exes.

And obviously, that's sort of an in varying degrees. Even almost got married and for Pete, I'm so thankful. Wish I could say thank you to Malcolm because he was an angel. For someone like Pete, right? Maybe there's a tad bit of like, I don't really think about you tossed in there. And that mix, I think is very charming. But I always find so much of hers, what her sort of proposition in terms of her point of view is, is there is this like

therapist quality to a lot of the lyrical writing. And that's definitely present on this album. But to me it works. And I believe it. And I think it's authentic because I, I think there's something really admirable about it. Like she, she has not become a dark figure at all, despite going through a lot of pretty dark stuff. And there's a lightness in the music that to me I always find a very, like, compelling sort of counterweight to just how powerful her voice is. Like she doesn't, I think actually one of the things that I'm excited to talk about with this album is, I think she could use it more. Yes. So there's a limit to that.

but hearing someone who has the like A, A, A, A, A, A, A, level vocal talent of Ariana Grande, still sound light and playful and whimsical. When it works, I think it's really cool. So I do think that she has a pretty clear, like, artistic proposition of what her identity is and what she wants to present. And I think she's done it, you know, spoiler alert,

I think she's done it pretty successfully. And where I'll, I can close the loop on the reputation thing, is I think this album's going to age really well. I think there's some messiness for all of the reasons that you brought up. But I think this album is going to age really well because while there isn't like a smash, smash, smash hit, there's not a seven rings.

There are things that are close, like close enough. But I also just think that the music here is really well made. Like this is, it's 35 minutes long. It's not that long, but it is 35 really good sounding minutes. It's like my dad says, close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. This is going to be interesting because my foundational opinion, which is, it's a strong opinion but loosely held, is different from yours.

I don't always believe her on this album. I don't always believe her. And I think there's some contradictions in the least. lyrics themselves. I don't believe that she doesn't care what people think. I think she deeply cares what people think. I think she says that she's taking accountability in some parts of this album. And then in other parts, it feels like she is shunning them on to other people and not taking accountability for what happens and almost creating a distraction. I think there are moments here where I feel like we're getting underneath the psyche of someone who's had an enormous amount

of trauma in her life, where then it feels like, yes, and we've got a Saturn moment in therapy, but then it feels like she bails out of really exposing herself, which is her right to do. But to me, it holds me in a little bit of a place of purgatory at times, not the whole album, at times. And when I kept waiting for that, up, here's one that goes straight up to the top in the canon of massive Ariana smashes, not hearing that. I went back and then listened to it as a comprehensive, as you talked about, like a comprehensive set of songs that were, you know, an album together. And I found it interesting.

There's stuff on here that I absolutely love, but I didn't always believe her. And that, again, strong opinion that's loosely held. So let's get into this and see if you talk me out of it. Okay. Let's do it. Biggest hit. So number of streams. goes to We Can't Be Friends. Which actually, that surprised me when I looked it up.

Really? Really that that's the one or really that that surprised me? That it surprised you? Yes, and is more omnipresent to me than that song. But I, but. That's because it was the first one. I think I love We Can't Be Friends. It is, way for you love that part of the chorus.

Like, it's pah, pow, man. It's the chival. realist chorus. I can't remember a chiller chorus that hits the way that this does. And we're so used to her using her voice as just a weapon of violence that for her to just sort of sing that line and lay out,

there's something unexpected about it that is super cool. You know what I love? And it's interesting that we started this conversation talking about sort of like how much, how much she really lets you in on this album. And I wonder if our differences

and how we experience it have to do with a difference of opinion on what the answer to that is or how much we care, like how much it affects the experience. Because in general, I don't think this, I think this is an album that

I think she's painting in a lot of broad strokes. I think it's intentional. And I think mostly it's done deftly enough when you combine the lyrics, which I don't think are the strongest part of the album. Right. With the music and the sounds where sometimes it, in the best cases, it becomes a feature. And actually, I think this song is a good example of that where, you know, if you go on TikTok right now, I mean, I guess when I say right now, that's because we're recording a podcast about this right now. I'm sure this was a more popping corner of TikTok a couple months ago.

There's a lot of people breaking this song down and talking about the different ways that you can interpret it and the different ways that you can see it being a song about the media. It can be a song about someone you were in a relationship that didn't work out. It can be a song, but I don't want to hide, but I don't want to feed this monstrous fire. It can be a song about someone that you've met, you have a crush on. And to me, I find that, you know, I don't want that in every song, but I think that it's refreshing to have something that doesn't have to be super, super literal. To me, the version of that that comes through is the one about, being written about all the time and feeling like there's

a press narrative that's taking over that she feels isn't true. Is that why the me and my truth we sit in silence? You think that's what it's about? That's the coolest part of the song. The papers and pens.

Yeah. I think it's about particularly as someone who Ariana Grande for years and years and years was like a great interview and someone who was pretty available. at least when she had something to promote. And she's certainly done some interviews.

Well, then she started licking donuts. It was one time. There was a lot of donut licking. But she's typically, like, when she sits down with someone, she's like chummy and funny and pretty open. If you, you know, she did something with Zane Lowe. She's done a couple interviews around this. Although, to your point, she did kind of jump back into Wicked Mode pretty quickly.

she's buttoned up, man. I think she feels burned and I think she doesn't want to go there. Do you think she recognizes that a lot of that is self-inflicted? That's my question on this whole album. Yeah, because I think that's why she's doing less of it. I think that's why she's pulling back. Well, she doesn't trust herself or is she just mad at people and she doesn't want to share.

When you say self-inflicted, do you mean divorcing her husband and then hooking up with SpongeBob Guy or do you mean putting a song called Pete Davidson on an album? I think all of that. I thought you ended my life. Look at my mind. Getting engaged to Pete after a couple of weeks and then it not working. And then, right, there's been a lot of public visibility. She's messy.

She's a messy in public. Into the mess. Yeah. And so I just wonder, look, we talked about yes and possibly being one of the hits. I agree. The song that's before that is the boy is mine where she says things like, I'm usually so unproblematic. I'm usually so unproblematic.

Like, really, Ariana? She says, and I take full accountability for all these tears. Promise you I'm not usually like this. Shit, it's like news to me, but I can't ignore my heart, boy. It's like, well, okay then, go. And then on yes and she says, I'm so done caring what you think. But I just don't believe that. I think it's gotten to her for the points that you mentioned.

I think she's gone into the bunker a little bit and probably doing some work on her own, but also to just get away from the nonsense. And I don't know. The thing that I like about We Can't Be Friends Way Free Love is I don't have to sort of engage in all that. It just is awesome. It holds up. It flows all the way through. You got the classic Max Martin synth base coming out of it.

you've got the Broadway-ass strings at the end. And I guess my only question for you on this song is, does it bother you that it has lots of Robbins dancing on my own in it? I would not say that it bothers me, but I do think that it's, it really sticks out. And in a funny way, given that yes and, she's a fan of the classics. And yes, and has so much of Madonna's Vogue in it.

something about the way that it's delivered on yes and feels more playful to me. So it feels like it's advancing something in a way where the dancing on my own qualities to We Can't Be Friends musically, like do feel a little closer to a rip. Oh, I felt that way about yes and. I mean, I feel the way about both of them. That's interesting. That's because it, yeah, no, it's the inverse for me. The spoken word stuff on yes and has bothers me a bit.

And I like yes and. and you hear it and you're like, okay, this is a hit, I got it. But it's also like, hey, I'm supporting the LG. You don't like the bridge? I just think it's set. You don't like, why do you care so much who's dick I ride? No. Why do you care so much who's that right?

Why? I don't. Because the last album, you said, F me until daylight. So I think, yes, I think I get what you're saying. And I agree with you. I hear her pulling back from that. So to that end, I think that I'm usually so unproblematic lyric is not a... You think it's tongue in cheek?

No, I think it's just a bad lyric. It's not a... I think there are some lyrical misses. Yeah. Notably, this is an album where Ariana Grande has a lot of soul lyrical writing. credits, which has not been a feature of most of her earlier albums. Wait. Oh, soul meaning not S-O-U-L, S-O-L-E.

S-O-L-E, yes. Right. A lot of songs on this thing that she wrote the words to by herself. And I think there's some good lyrical writing, but I think I would say, and I'm going to get a chance to talk more about this in a minute, so we'll get there. The thing that I really love about this album is I think it sounds fucking. great. There are some good lyrical moments. There are some iffy

lyr lyrical moments. She, for the last few albums, has done a lot of work with Taylor Parks and Victoria Monet. They were not involved in this. My sense is it was just sort of schedules and doing this album came about because

of the sag strike and Wicked Filming P paused and blah, blah, blah, blah. And she clearly just like got some studio time with Max. I think it's cool that she's engaging more with songwriting. And I think there's some interesting stuff here. But

as I I don't know if Defend is the right word, but tell you how much I enjoy this thing, I will be the first to admit that I think there are some misses in the lyrics. Well, that's part of why I have a hard time with taking it as an entire album and sort of a statement from her

is because of some of those misses. But you don't get the journey. You don't get the... I get the journey. hear the intro and hear her sort of define. No, I said, I think, I think the songs that the order is intentional, and I do, I do hear the journey. Yeah. I cannot tell if I'm in the right relationship.

Aren't you really supposed to know that shit? I just don't always believe it. Do you believe it most of the time? Because that's how I feel. I hear, I hear exactly what you're talking about. it just isn't enough to kind of knock me off the journey, particularly because I am having such a good time being on it. Okay, so let me be clear.

I'm loving being on the journey. Like, let's go. It's just, it's messy. I don't believe that she's got it all figured out and that her Saturn is returned. And, you know, as it says in that intro of Saturn return, like, it's time to sort out who you really are. I don't think Ariana has sorted out who she really is.

I think she's on the path to getting there, and I believe that she's seeking it. But when she makes an Instagram post of her, you know, a photo of her crying and then a photo of, I don't know, was her mom dancing to the music and saying these are the two moods of the album. Like I think that she was trying to invest herself into this and maybe in the process,

because of some of those lyrical misses, and there's something, that just don't go quite as deep as I think they could have. And there's some stuff that's recycled musically for me. It feels like she got part of the way there, but not all the way there. And I'm okay with that. I just think the messiness is the brand at this point. You've got to roll with that versus necessarily thinking.

I'm usually so unproblematic. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I mean, look, the biggest, probably the first instance of Ariana Grande becoming like kind of mega tabloid famous as opposed to just someone who people who are invested in pop music were aware of or people who were invested in her earlier sort of child star career knew of was the donut licking incident like Ari started problematic.

Yeah. For the dumbest possible thing. But yeah, I agree that that's a little bit of a that line throws me for a loop a little bit. And I'm okay with it. The things that I love, though, if we can just talk about, we can't be friends just a little more. Like, the little hearing her take the little breath at the beginning of that song. Yeah. I didn't think you'd understand me. I find so affecting because of the things that we're talking about. Like there aren't, this is for the most part, an incredibly polished and a little bit

guarded piece of work. But then I do think that she, there's a couple little deft moments where you just almost hear her sort of like, you just hear her be human and breathe in. And there's something intimate about that that I love. And then I love after that line, me and my truth, we sit in silence. The track just completely drops out. Yeah. And then her little, her little vocal trill there coming in is cool.

Now I'm understanding how you're approaching this album. The reputation thing at the start was important for me because, yeah, it's about the relationship with the press for you. There is the, it's going to take some time for this to be appreciated for what it is. I see how you're approaching the angle. I'm not sure I agree with you totally, but it's not a judgeable thing in this moment. It's just, but I see how you interpret this song in that way. Okay, so let's talk about about.

songs. What are you loving? Well, it's this song. I mean, wait-free love is, I think, the one for me. But, and look, I liked yes, and. I just had trouble with the recycled Vogue stuff. I couldn't get away from it. And on top of that, she did a version of that song with Mariah Carey. And it starts, and I think they have a high note off in the beginning. I think that's their voices. And it fucking rules. I'm secretly afraid because the rest of the song, there's a ton of ways they could have incorporated their voices.

And all of Mariah's runs are in the lower register. So it made me wonder if the notes in the beginning, of that version are like synthesized or something. But I like the song. I just can't shake the Vogue piece. And so it's hard for me to treat it as a standalone offering. And that's a little bit of the... But she's done this, right?

I mean, she's doing that on... So how do you feel about the boy is mine? Well, I mean, I feel like there's Brandy and Monica's song by the same name. The Paul McCartney, Michael Jackson's song, The Girl is Mine, which is definitely the song that you would cut from Thriller if you had to, comes to mind. Every single album, Thriller, coming soon. I mean, it's just, it's, I don't know.

To me, it sounds like, in true story, she's saying, give me love, give me love. And it reminds me, I mean, part of this might be that I was just with my toddler nieces this weekend, and they were just sitting in their high chairs pointing at stuff going, Gimmie, gimme. They still haven't figured out the baseline way to ask for things. But look, there's some good runs at the end of that song. But there's the gimme, gimmee on true story.

And then in the boy is mine, after just throwing me off with, I'm usually so problematic. But then she's kind of claiming this guy after throwing a pointing tantrum at him on the last song. So I love the way that the tempo slows down briefly coming into the chorus. that's super cool. It's just the, and I take full accountability

for all these tears. I just couldn't buy it. Do you like that song? I like how it sounds. We've talked about how the unproblematic part is sort of weird to me, but it's just,

I think it's, I mean, she is a classicist. Like, she really loves... She grew up on brandy monica. She loves, which is largely like, late,

90s R&B, sort of like pop R&B music. And I think she's doing, like, her homages to me work. Like, I think she adds enough of her own flair. And while I agree with you, like, I, the unproblematic thing, you know, we don't need to harp on that too much. But the fact that she sings the song in that mode, but then writes it in a way that's not perfect, but does incorporate, I think, part of what is her voice as an artist, which does have this, this, I think to call it therapy speak is accurate, but sounds more condescending

than I mean it. Because I do think that she, like, again, I like the perspective of hers where she does tend to, she shows people a fair bit of grace, generally. And I think it, sounds like an Ariana Grande song in the writing. And then is an Ariana Grande song doing sort of a sonic homage to some of her favorite music? And again, it's incredibly listenable. Like, it sounds fun. I want to put it on the layers. And this is true of so many songs on this record.

The layers of just like a billion Ariana Grande is singing together and all the different backing vocals. It's like lush and rich. She's the best instrument. She is the best instrument. She is, as far as I can tell, of her generation, the most technically gifted singer we have. Which is not something that we, like, prize necessarily.

Like, that's, that's, it's not telling in the sense that she's an unbelievably gifted singer. But she is, like, a 99.99.999.999.9.9th percentile vocalist. And it's, but if you look around Yeah, I could Look, I could say 9-99-9 until the end of this podcast

And it probably still wouldn't be enough. You know, she holds up to the Mariah comparisons, right? Like, if you look around Pop Girl Spring, right? Like, that's not that's not typically the thing that we prize the most in

in our biggest pop stars. Like there are some, you know, Beyonce's got an unbelievable voice. Taylor, in her own way, has an instrument that she can do incredible things with. We know from S&L. Yeah, we know from S&L.

Ariana can do an impression of those singers as well as they can sing, probably. She did the, did the, did you see the video of her performance at the Met Gala? Yeah. Like, you hear her, you watch a video that was just like on someone's iPhone

and it's in this like big cavernous room in the temple of Dendur and she's just like she sounds unbelievable like she sounds like she's not real she is unbelievable it's not clear that she's real and I think my knock

is that my three favorite songs from this album are all massively derivative. We talked about yes and being vogue. We talked about we can't be friends having a lot of roots in Robbins dancing on my own.

I wish I hated you slays me. It's the syncopation and the vocals. Again, a lot of Ariana, she's the best instrument. The lyrical part of this song I'm super into,

but the muted synth in the background of the chorus under the I Wish I Hated You part is playing the notes from the verse of Fix You by Coldplay, which is totally fine. Lots of people love that song. Kelly Clarkson just Kelly

Oaky did. Like, I get it. That is an iconic, unbelievably moving beautiful song. And it's 100% woven into I wish I hated you. And so I wish... That sounds my cut, so... I wish I could... I'm not surprised.

You're right. We are going to fucking battle. I wish I hated you. I just could tell. Awesome. And I can't believe that you're going to cut it. Yes, Queen. Give me nothing.

Oh, that's terrible. I'll come back to you on that. I love... Maybe this speaks to the different ways that we're going through this music because I'm not, I think the album as a whole, when you go through the whole thing, it tells a story, it tells enough of a story that I feel like I'm following something. I'm engaged with something. For the most part, I'm not coming to Eternal Sunshine for its lyrical depth and special.

And I feel like that's the song where she's trying to do that. And to me, it's the least successful song. Oh, I don't know. It feels like it's a little bit of a Broadway number. I'll give you that. But I don't know. This one I believed her. I really did. And it might just be that I love Fix You and the fact that she redid Fix You, I'm just like, oh, here's a great cover of Fix You. Well, fine. So what's the best song in the album, Nora? Okay, genuinely, I had such a hard time picking because I truly... You are in the bag for Ariana Grande. So I have certainly like always been in the bag for Ariana Grande, which is funny because like typically Taylor Swift fans and Ariana Grande fans are at war with each other.

Right. And maybe I'm at war with myself. She is like, and this is, look, I think our listeners have sort of like picked up on this by now. for two people who have a real connection over the music that we cover on this podcast, sometimes you and I have a yin-yang of tastes where, like, my spirit pop stars are like Ariana and Duleepa. Yeah. And I think I like the Olivia ballads and you like the bangers. Yes.

Yeah. So. I wish I hated you. I think this is not my favorite song. Fine. But just to speak to what I think is the level on which this album, like, has a real A-game. Okay. I usually can't stand the stupid little, the 1975 and their stupid little intro tracks,

stupid little instrumental, I want to, you know, I'm going to say something about how the album's going to start. Just give me a song. Oh, come on. You like intro end of the world? That song. I don't even know if I should call it a song. I'm not saying that it's the best song. I'm already asleep in my chili.

It sounds so good when they start to do like all the vocal layers and she's harmonizing with herself. And it is just that like, you know, the strings are maybe a little like they're sort of intentionally corny. Right. But it sounds beautiful. Like, Max has still got it. And I'm so serious right now. If the sun refused to shine. Because a professional producer got in the studio and was like, I'm going to make 35 minutes of music,

but it's going to sound great. If the sun refused to shine, baby, would I still be your lover? If the sun to shine. Come on, man. Who cares? I care. I don't. The song is basically,

I am here to steal your man. She didn't. Do we need to talk about SpongeBob? Oh. Who, no one knows. I mean, he, like, I just simply couldn't care less, but it is interesting,

and I'm not saying, I'm not saying you do, but it was, it was interesting for me to go back and read some of the coverage and realize, to your point, you said it very well,

she was like on the verge of a cancelable moment. which to me, like, the way that I processed all of that was like, this is fucking goofy. But it's, I sort of like either missed or just had amnesia for how, like, heated that got. Yeah, it's pretty heated. It's not great. And it's not great that he's SpongeBob.

I mean, that's, right, that's the part to me that's like, okay, okay. SpongeBob, Pete Davidson, like, what are we doing? here. I mean, she sort of told us what was going on with Pete. But. And I actually thought there was a chance that she was going to do something like that on this album. But that did not seem to be the case. So did you just tell me that intro end of the world is your favorite song on this album? I just wanted to make, I wanted to make a point where I just, I feel that. There's good stuff throughout the record, thanks to Max and her vocal prowess. Yeah, although now I'm realizing,

Max actually didn't, that's one of the songs, one of the very few songs that he did not produce on. But still, speaking to the point of the overall sonic quality of the album, are you not into buy? So I like buy, but the guitar from a Barry White song at the start,

there's like a few 70s disco vibes to this album. Oh, get out of here. But there's a lot of Arianna on this song again, Her vocals are like everywhere, multiple parts at once. It's great. It would be hard to do that song, I imagine, fully live without a lot of backing tracks. And we get it. The relationship is over.

But this one just felt a little derivative to me. I'm saying that a lot now that I'm saying it out loud. Yeah. Which is totally fair. By his ears. You love the jam. My note is, oh, a perfect song? it's just so fun

like the groove is so good I have found myself singing that song in my head actually more than yes and we can't be friends I'm sending you

my Barry White playlist at the end of this podcast unfortunately I think I would rather hear Ariana Grande do Barry White than Barry Wine too Barry White got it together now didn't we baby

yeah let's I mean come on I let you know It's good to hear her do the whistle tone thing at the end. Yeah. This is a version where the lightness of the delivery with an instrument that we know she could whack you over the head with if she wanted to. And that's not to say that I don't wish there was a moment on this album where she did that,

but the fact that she can do something where it sounds simultaneously so like, and difficult, but then easy and breezy, is one of my favorite tools that she has. I think this is a great example of it. I will play the song quite a bit. You think this is the best song on the record? I think it might be my favorite song. I would also, but like, again, this is the point where I think this is a pretty darn successful collection of music without a clear, like, smash, smash. Oh, holy shit, that's the song moment.

I ride pretty hard for Supernatural. I think that melody is really, really juicy. I think the weekend would love that beat. Supernatural is one of my favorite songs on the record. I think it's a hit. I'm totally into it. As I listen to the record, I was like, okay, intro, fine. The lyrics just got me weird.

Okay, here's bye. It's a Barry White song. Don't want to break up again. I don't believe you that you don't want to fuck with his head. You definitely do. There's some self-empowerment therapy talk here. I dig the descending notes on the bridge. There's a nice little vocal run at the end.

There's just not a ton to that song. The Saturn return interlude, I'm like, oh boy, here we go. We got a lot, a lot of pop stars having a Saturn return moment. Okay, but she did it first. In fairness, she did it first. The Saturn cycle takes around about 29 years. That's when we've got to wake up

and smell the coffee because if we've just been sort of relying on our clever Adele did it first. Okay, well, that's true. That's true. Who knows when it was all recorded? I'm just saying, you don't stay claim to Saturn Return

when everybody's turned in their album. Eternal Sunshine, I don't care what people say is the first line, and I don't, I'm not sure we believe it. And there's some, eternal sunshines. Like, now she's in my bed laying on your chest sounds like Timberlakes Crying a River

where you don't have to say what you did. So there's that, but then supernatural hits, and I was like, aw, shit, we have our first hit. This is some vapid pop shit, but it is a groove. It is a serious groove. I loved it. We're doing like falling in love again, but we don't need to think about it too hard. Yeah.

I was totally fine with it. I'm glad that we can like be together on this song and we can listen to Supernatural together. This is great. I'm glad we have a point of agreement. I like when we disagree sometimes, but it's good that we're on board here. Yeah. Quick aside, she does the,

on the extended version, she's got Troy on this. Yes. Is he going to be a star? Like, I keep waiting for him to break out. He was like a role player in the Dua SNL episode, I think. Yeah.

And I dig his stuff. I just, is it going to break out with him? Are we going to do every single album? I don't know. I don't know. I'm interested in this too. Sometimes it seems like, and I really like, I like his music a lot. I find there's something almost like so, it's not quite cool is not the word that I'm looking for, but like so sort of tasteful and canny about it that I wonder if it's almost like a little too restrained or like, like there's. something that's so mainstream pop forward about it and then also something that's so sort of

refined one of your girls is an awesome song I thought that in the video and everything I thought he was going to just like punch right out with that but it's not quite as big as it's not even as big as rush from that album

all right well that's enough of a rabbit hole on that but supernatural It's a good rabbit hole because to your point, like, to your point, he's very clearly, like, a lot of your favorite, your favorite female pop star's favorite male pop star. Like, there's something there where it seems like it's not just us being like, is, is he going to break in a big way? Because clearly the co-signs are there. But supernatural. Supernatural is great.

True story is not one of my favorites, but I think there's some drama in that. I also think to shout out a lyrical moment that I do really appreciate, I'll play whatever part you need me to. This is another one where it could be about a relationship. It could be about the press. A romantic partner, but it could also be about the media and the press. And she says, I'll play whatever part you need me to in a bunch of different variations of different parts in the song.

But then there's one where there's just this little addition of, and I'll be good in it too. Which I think is cheeky and smart in a very Ariana way. Yes. It's not unlike the, thank God I look this good or whatever from Wait for You love. Or at least this song is a smash. Yes. Which is like an all-time.

I mean, she's funny. Like, she's a funny person. Not a debate. And sometimes that comes through and sometimes that doesn't. That's not really a moment she's playing for laughs. But I thought it was clever, particularly if something that's happening here is that I don't know if she has a real interest in being, like becoming a traditional songwriter and making that a big part of her career or if this is just sort of a blip. And she wanted to do a little bit more writing herself and it ended up going on this album, which was recording. sort of differently than some of her earlier ones.

But either way, if something that's going through here, going on here, is she's sort of working through what it means for her to be more involved. And that, that's a moment where I think it's successful. She also, you know, she does some real singing on this song, I will say, and I think it's cool. The boy's mine, yes, and we can't be friends we've all talked about, but all of those more than work for me. I wish I hated you is my cut.

I'm curious what your cut is. I think to me it was Don't want to break up again. Because I sort of bounced between that and True Story because I just didn't feel like musically they grabbed me as much. But I went to Don't Want to Break Up Again because

Look on True Story, I wanted the chorus to be bigger. I thought she could have made it bigger and more of a moment. But don't want to break up again. I just don't believe it. I just didn't believe it. I'm too much for you. I think she said that a lot through the course of her life. And then like she is a supernatural human being in like the coolest way. So yeah, I think she's too much for most people. This is a common theme in highly talented, strong pioneering women. It's very difficult for them to find men who can, uh, Yin their way into their yang or the other way around. But I just, the self-empowerment therapy talk there, that I don't want to fuck with your head left me less than converted.

I don't mind that, actually, at all, because I think of that as something that she, you know, lest we forget, Ariana Grande was one of our first, like, lowercase pop girlies, right? Like, before, before we were doing it on, folklore and evermore, she was kind of like holding down the fort of doing that for music that was maybe confessional in its own way, but less less like muted singer songwritery and more still big maximalist pop. But she found ways to incorporate that through a lot of what I think you

could call like therapy speak. So to me it doesn't it doesn't necessarily stand out here because is it something that I sort of expect for her. I'm curious how you feel about her calling her marriage a situation ship on this song. Yeah. I don't believe it. It's weird. I don't know what put me off. It is weird,

but like there's a difference. I don't believe it. Like, I don't believe that she thinks it was a situation ship, but I'm interested. Like, she's kind of a weird person. Are you sure that she's talking about her marriage?

About her describing it in that. way. Like, I think that, I mean, I don't think that that's like a decision she made to be cool or something. Are you sure that she's talking about her marriage versus an actual situation ship? I wasn't. I'm pretty sure. Because it follows by and I thought this could be the, like, she just has gone through a divorce. She's in another rebound and just the pain of like breaking up again, realizing, you know, and then bam, it's the Saturn returns. You've got to sort out who you really are. She has a much more graceful view of her marriage on Eternal Sunshine.

And then, bam, we're into Supernatural. You know, you're right about one thing. Nothing sucks on this album. I was maybe going to cut ordinary things, but I can't cut Nana. You can't cut Nana Grande. No. You could not. You could never.

Nana Grande says if you don't want a good night kiss, get out. You're in the wrong place. And if you can't and if you don't feel comfortable doing it, you're in the wrong place. Get out. I mean, she's the only collaborator. Ariana's like the one who does the collaboration. She's like the, I don't know, she's everywhere.

And her albums have always had collaborators. It's interesting that this one is just Ariana. that she's written a lot of the lyrics and that the only collaborator is Nana. Well, and, I mean, I know what you're saying, and Max. And the Diana Garland Astrology lady on the Saturn Returns. The only feature, let's put it that way. Sure. Sure, sure, sure.

So you're cutting, you're cutting, don't want to break up again. I think I'm cutting, don't want to break up again. But again, that's a, that's not a strongly held opinion. Like, I sort of, I bounce between don't want to break up again, true story, and ordinary things. I mean, the only song we haven't talked about is imperfect for you, which was the second song she played on SNL. Yeah.

I'm into the janky guitar. My boy, come take my hand, throw your guitar in your clothes in the back seat. It's the second time on the album. And I'm, I'm into the note on the chorus that's like wrong, but jolting and kind of, of cool.

Yeah. Yeah. That's the coolest part of the song for sure. But again, it's like the first time you have a, like this is at this point so common, I guess, but it's like the first time you have

a really different flavor combination. Like the first time you have a dessert that has like a salt quality to it. Yeah. And at first you're like, what the fuck is going on? Lemon pasta. Yeah.

I'm a fan. Well, it's the second time on this album she's called herself too much. So I do reiterate that. think she's had this feedback before. You don't have a ponytail that high and not be a little too much for people. The high ponytail is the thing. I mean, is there a world in which Ariana Grande was ever going to be too little?

She's in Wicked, for goodness sakes. She's a theater kid. Yeah. Well, she is a theater kid. And that might be my biggest question mark about this record is whether she would rather, and in fact, whether the entire. her entire focus at this point is geared towards that. But we'll talk about that in a second.

Can we just cover off and finish on ordinary things? How do you feel about the song? I enjoy it. I mean, do I enjoy it a little bit more as the album closer and as a nice note to end on? Right. Then purely as a piece of music. In a funny way, it's kind of the inverse of end of the world where, yes, I do, like, I think sort of stating the thesis of how do you know when you're in the right relationship is effective. But what I like about, you know, that minute and 30 seconds or whatever it is,

is just I do think it sounds sonically very, very beautiful. I'm not thinking a ton about what ordinary things sounds like. I'm just more thinking about like, oh, she ended in this very sweet place. Well, what Nana says you're in the, you know, if he, if you can't do Don't want a good night kiss. Get out. You're in the wrong place. Get out. And the cackle. And well, Ariana did. You're laughing. It's cute. It's very sweet. There's a line in ordinary things where she says,

you hit like my biggest fan when I hear what the critiques say. And again, it's like, are you sure she doesn't care what people thinks? That's one of those contradictions. I don't think she's saying she doesn't care what people think. I think that's the head fake of yes and in the sense that that song did present this album as the, I don't care what people think record, as the, like... She literally says that in the song, I'm so done with caring what you think. Yes.

I do think that that is an improper representation of what we get here as a whole. I think it's an improper representation of where she is based on some of the defensiveness and the rest of the record. But do you feel that she is trying to say, I... Ariana Grande truly do not care. When I read stories in page six about how I'm a homewrecker and I stole this woman's husband, it does not matter to me one bit. I don't think she's saying that.

I think she's saying she has a mode that I buy is part of how she goes through life where that she also uses musically where she goes, I'm going to brush it off. I'm going to move forward. It's that sort of like, there's something almost a little bitchy about it, but in a way that I like, it's that sort of light and love,

like, you know, wish you the best. And it's not totally sincere, but it is a take the high road avenue. And that sensibility feels true to me, even if there is an inherent contradiction in, I'm going to write a song.

Cough, cough, I forgot that you existed. I'm going to write a song and make it the lead single of my album about how much I don't give a shit what people say about me. Like, of course she cares.

Is there anybody who's her most important collaborator other than Max Martin? It is Max. It's not SpongeBob. His name is. His name is Ethan Slater. I'm this poor man.

What do you mean this poor man? He's hanging out with Ariana Grande. No, I know, I know. Or maybe not anymore, right? No, I think they're still, I thought they were still together. I frankly didn't check, but... I saw a little speculation. Oh.

But you can't believe anything you read, so who knows anything? It's not of my business. That's what Ariana told us. It's just, I... It's actually, maybe it's for the better for him. Maybe it actually makes people, maybe it'll save him some heat. It is a little tough that he doesn't get to be a named character in his own drama. He's at least, to me, SpongeBob guy, which does put him in the company of like, Owl City guy.

Fair enough. I mean, he didn't get named because he didn't come along in time for. Muse is coming in unlikely forms. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's Max, right? I mean, it's Max Martin. It's definitely Max.

I just, I really think the production and how, you know, the two ways that you could say it are it's Max or it's herself. And it's herself in the specific sense of how her voice is deployed all over this thing

in conversation with itself and in layers. Yeah. With itself. Again, something we've come back to a couple times is like, I could have taken one absolute like walloping vocal moment that doesn't come. But there are so many places, you know, to me, if I explain to you the thing that makes me really, really like this album, it is that I feel like I can put it on.

And for 35 minutes, for the most part, I'm going to be listening to sounds that sound really, really beautiful. and the primary feature of that is how her voice is being layered on top of itself and well and she did some vocal engineering on this record too so. Yeah, she's really

she really like she's really involved in this. I think mostly for the better in some cases with the lyrics I wonder if she missed having having Victoria and Taylor and

that collaboration maybe pushing her to refine the lyrical writing a little bit more. But she's clearly like, she's not coming in and reading sheet music, you know, like she's making these songs. Yeah. I feel like the end of Wait for You Love sounds a little bit 1989 emacs to me with some of the synths before the Broadway strings arise,

even though I love that outro altogether. And I feel like, like it was on max to deliver us that a few more moments in the choruses and and maybe one more really mega smash hit. So I do think it's her most important collaborator. And I think that I, if I'm pointing a finger at this album, and I sound like negative. Like I did, there's nothing that sucks on here. Like steady hand. Was it your donut she licked? Both hands on the wheel. I don't know. Because. no one will ever know.

Somebody might have eaten those donuts. Max, I think he did a fine job, not an outstanding job. I'm not going to say he mailed this one in because I think there is decent work on here. But it isn't his most standout bit of collaboration, in my view. Part of the proposition when you hire Max Martin, you work with Max Martin, and you do that, is you want to smash. And I think you're right. right to say that it didn't deliver on that.

I think there's consistently very, very good. I agree. Work. But you're right. No, that's part of Max Martin is Max Martin because of his ability to deliver absolute smash hits. Can we go to the conspiracy corner at this point? Okay, go. Go for it.

I think she's subliminally changing lyrics. There are multiple points. throughout this album. What? Where, so the first time I heard this, I didn't have lyrics in front of me. I was just running, listening to it. And I got like super different takes on multiple songs.

So on, on, we can't be friends. First of all, let's start with the small, where she says, you know, but I'd like to just be friends. I 100% am hearing it without the contraction multiple times, which I keep hearing like, but I would like to. Like, she pronounces stuff weird. And it happens again on Wish I Hated You.

I can't unhear her saying, how much I hated you? And like the last part, it sounds to me like she's saying, you know how much I hated you? Like, I can't get it out of my head. And that completely flips the meaning of the song, by the way. maybe that's why I like it so much

because she isn't telling somebody how much she hated them and then ordinary things the way she pronounces ordinary it sounds like ornery yes yes that the delivery of that word is strange ornery things but there's multiple instances

throughout this album where she's pronouncing shit weird and it changes the meaning of the song so my conspiracy theory is that she is subliminally shading in a bunch of these lyrics intentionally. Okay, this is fascinating. I did not expect this. And it's so funny.

And again, we're just on different journeys with this one because what I'd put in this was like, we need to have a discussion about how there just aren't really Easter eggs on this album. There aren't really like the curtain is pretty drawn. And that's the conversation that I think we've basically had where like you're going, what am I supposed to hear?

And if this word is different, it completely changes the meaning of the song. And I'm going, I think over the course of these songs, when we start with the intro, where she lays it out, and then you get by and don't want to break up again, which are like focused on

the end of her marriage slash situation ship. And then you get the Saturn Returns interlude, which is sort of like, the shit's hitting the fan. Got to find out who you are. And then the rest of the album, to me, like, sort of, for the most part, plays in that messiness through different vantage points and, you know, litigating it a little bit in terms of, like, how you're perceived publicly and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, like, it's in broader strokes. And then you get the conclusion with ordinary things.

to me, the story works on that 10,000 foot level, but does not invite you to dig into that many individual lines and nooks and crannies. It is, like, I think, deliberately at arm's length. And I'm interested in that because, as you said, like, and I don't know if that means that it's sort of like her fault and by her own doing, but she has done that. Like she has called a song Pete Davidson. She has name-checked a lot of people.

Like, she's been someone who's dropped a lot of Easter eggs and written details. Not always. Like, she hasn't always worked in that mode. But more recently, she's done it a fair bit. And so I found it interesting. I found the lack of Easter eggs more interesting than any individual ones. Well, meanwhile, now I find out that you're listening to it and digging in being like, what does this syllable mean?

I might be crazy, but if that's, she definitely is not standard at pronunciation. Let's put it that way. She sometimes seems like she's searching for syllables or she's eliminating a syllable by bastardizing words. Or all of this means something, Nora. I love that you're going off the deep end on this particular quality of an Ariana Grande album,

you kind of like. What can I do? What else can I do? Do you think she announced Reputation Taylor's version in the lyrics? I don't know. But I'll tell you this.

Peak Ariana Grande is caring more about Wicked than this album. She played with her co-star at the Met Gala. She hasn't done a whole lot of promo. Doesn't seem like there's a tour in the works

at the moment, which you can forgive her for any PTSD she's got about live performing at this point. But I think she cares about Wicked more. She cares more about Glinda than she does anything right now. Yes. I think that's apparent.

Like, I feel like the next album, essentially, is Wicked. Well, right. Look, you pointed to the fact that she came in with some controversy. I think she and her team are probably smart enough to know this. and that the public nature of her personal life probably took the tiniest bit of bloom off the rose. And I think they're telegraphing her real comeback strategy. And it's wicked.

It's John Chu directing two-part big massive movie that they're planning to sort of introduce her as, reintroduce her as the star that you would expect her to be looking at the streaming numbers. But that I think because of the sort of fatigue of some of the relational drama

that has made its way, rightly or wrongly, true or false, relational drama that's made its way into the press, you almost have lost sight of, no, this is Ariana Grande, smash hit singer,

best technical singer of her generation of pop stars, absolute heavyweight, not just tabloid, you know, receiver, of page six fuckery. And some of that is resting on the strength of those mega hits on past albums.

But even with the absence of that, that's certainly not to say that this album is streaming poorly, right? And without a lot of rollout, like, these are still big songs. A lot of people are, that's the thing that's interesting to me about it is because, like, I think that's absolutely true. And I think she's is telegraphing a little bit of like, okay, we wanted to put this out. She's not planning on releasing music until after Wicked came out, but then the strike paused things. And she obviously was going through things personally and wanted to to make this and did. But at one point, the plan was for her, despite the fact that when did positions come out, 20, 2020, I think. So it's been a while.

She wasn't going to do it until Wicked was out. Whether that's a... I think you're right to say that that's part of a comeback strategy. And what she's coming back from is that that public narrative and feeling a little bit publicly toxic, which I guess is true. It's just interesting to me that, like, at the same time, she is a very widely consumed artist.

Like, she is a very, a lot of people are listening to a lot of Ariana Grande. It's not as though she has to come back from a lack of popularity, a lack of people engaging with her work. What's Picariana for you? Peacriana for me was the fact that there is not one but two ponytails on the cover of this thing. Do you think those are both her or is it definitely her and somebody else? No, it's both her. I think it's, I think it's a, and that actually, like, I think it's about the separation between, at least my read, is it's sort of like the public self, the private self, the who people think she is, who she really is.

Or maybe it's a little bit of before and after, right? Like, you go, you know, she's gone through this upheaval and, and, um, her past self and her current self, one is leaning on the other shoulder. They're kind of supporting each other. I don't really know. What I know is there's two fucking ponytail. And that's a lot of Ariana Grande. It is what it is. What are we missing here?

We're missing next album appetizer was the only thing. And I think you said it right. It's the end of wait for your love. It's the strings, the Broadway musical thing. It's basically wicked as the next album, right? Well, and that's what's interesting to me because clearly in that mode, she's going to be doing some real singing.

And she'll do some sort of virtuosic vocal performing, which, as we've said a number of times, is something that this album does not rely on. It's not completely absent, but it's not leaning on that. And the Wicked chapter in those performances, I would figure knowing those songs, will be very different from that. And the thing that'll be interesting to see for me is does she use Wicked to do that?

And that's where she does that. And then she will sort of go back into more of a similar well like this where she's not walloping you over the head with her voice in her albums. If and when she does continue to release music this way. or if she'll use the voice more in her next non-wicked set of music. I sort of hope she does because despite how much I like the sound of this album, she's a once-in-a-generation singer. Like you want to hear it. But where I know we're going to hear a lot of it is wicked.

So to me, that's the next album. I think it's going to be a very interesting 18 months of Ariana Grande because one reading of the way that she's handled this is that she's got some apathy towards the recorded music and touring part of her career and that she's for maybe life stability reason she isn't interested in touring for PTSD from the awful bombing in Manchester at her concert she's got some PTSD that she said a lot of of the things that she wants to say, that being a pop star puts her in a spotlight that makes her uncomfortable to go with your narrative that you're sort of reading through these lyrics. And that what she really wants to do is lean into the acting and musical theater part of her incredible skill set because it keeps her in one place. Where you get to play a character, right? Like I can see her saying, I want to, I want my public work to be.

in costume. And to be clear, you know, when Ariana Grande first was, well, really at the start of the 2010s,

that was the moment in which, as streaming got its legs underneath it, but the revenue pie chart for an artist had flipped, right?

It had, in the early 2000s, artists made 80% of their money from recorded music and 20% from the road. And as Napster cut the legs out

of the money that artists got paid and took a while for Spotify and Apple to get there, and it's never really fully recovered. Suddenly, artists realized, hey, I can go out and tour a lot more and make a bunch of money. And so touring became 80, 90% of an artist's income relative to their recorded music. So if Ariana's not going to tour, the good news is she's got all of this catalog of music that continues to pay her because she's got 14 or 15, 1 billion stream songs, that's not chump change, but it's not as lucrative as going out on the road and playing a tour.

And so getting paid for the musical theater stuff and the acting stuff would be a way to potentially replace some of that income if she's not going to go out. I would certainly not begrudge her if she's not interested in touring. Me neither. I'm not even sure it's what she does incredibly well.

She sings incredibly well. Yeah, I think that's true. Yeah, that's true. which like there's such a there's such a sort of delicate interplay between how you use a voice like that when to accomplish sort of the end goals of mainstream pop stardom because her most the dangerous woman songs are probably as a collection the clearest synthesis between i want to do like big smash hits. but I wanted to be front and center that I am a special, special singer. The sort of the thank you next era is not just is not doing that.

And so it's interesting because people don't necessarily, it's so special to her. It's unique to her, really, in terms of who's working now. But I don't know that that's what people go to go to Ariana Grande for all the time, which is just a, it's an interesting mix

and it does make her live shows an interesting kind of back and forth because it's like, okay, you want to hear this person who can just like sing the roof off. But that's not always what makes the songs big hits. I would love to see her in concert because she's got a lot of songs that I like a lot. So I guess we'll find out. But I would be looking forward to it.

It's time for you to grade this thing. Oh, we didn't do a best lyric, though. Yeah, but we did. But we did. Well, you don't like it. The lyric people are going to remember this album for is, Why Do You Care So Much Who's Dick I Ride? Why do you care?

Why? Yeah. Which is frankly a good question. Yeah, it's a good question. I'm going to remember it for I'm usually so unproblematic. Come on. That's going to be your problem. All right.

Do you want to go first? No, I really want you to. I gave it an A minus. Okay. So I ask you again, why the minus and why not the B plus? I couldn't in good conscience give this album an A. Because I agree with you. There are a couple metrics on which you come to an Ariana Grande album for that Eternal Sunshine doesn't quite accomplish.

And because I think she's done better, she's, she's, she's, they had albums. where the average lyrical output is better than this. And I think you're right and fair in talking about Max to say, part of why you go to Max Martin is to get a hit that's going to have a billion plus streams. Now, I mean, we can't be friends is halfway there, right? So who knows? But there's not one of those just like truly, truly undeniable songs. So those all go in the minus column.

That's why the minus is there. I really do think the production of her voice and the way that these songs just sound, what you're experiencing if you just like put your headphones in or turn it on in the car and just, well, don't close your eyes if you're in the car. But listen and experience. it is that piece of the album is A worthy. So I felt that a B plus would inadequately encompass the fact that I think that there is a level on which this album is excellent. And it is also something that, you know, I try to not, try to not incorporate too much of just sort of like what's my personal taste. but there's a bit of me in this.

So that's how I arrived at my ultimate conclusion. I gave it a B. I appreciate the confessional divorce album. Like I said at the top, I just don't believe some of it. I think she's just had a lot of trauma in her life through all of the things. And from afar, for me, it seems like she's still figuring out who she is. And it's harder for me to ignore. some of the recycled stuff musically on this album.

It sits in between a really authentic deep dive into the psyche of a huge star. And Ariana Grande is a huge star. But it sits in between a deep dive into her psyche and the, you know, the blockbuster all-time iconic hitmaking that she did in the 2010s. And it, because of that, it doesn't really deliver either for me. me, I don't get the big vocal moment. I don't have enormous hits. And I don't have enough piercing authenticity to buy fully into the lyrical part of the record.

And my vibe in the rollout and the way it's been handled since is that this isn't the priority for her. So why should it be for me? In five years, which song has been, streamed more times between we can't be friends and Fortnite. Yeah, it's a fair question.

It's telling that it's even, it's like interesting that it's even a fair question. Well, no, it's not because this woman, this is what she does. People stream her shit. She put songs that stream. I think it's Fortnite because Fortnite is at the beginning of the record. And Taylor's Lean, into it. She just put out the remix.

Which is good, by the way. I like the remix. Thank you. I have not really come around on that song, but I do, I like the remix. Yeah, I think it's Fortnite, but it is, it is potentially an issue. I just, I'm not sure that's the measure of good. Put that in competition or say which one's better or anything like that. I just, I want to give context to the, this album doesn't have a hit. Well, but Fortnite, I don't think is a hit. Because that is a hit. conversation that only exists within the landscape of Ariana Grande as a, you know, second, like, it's sort of her and Rihanna in terms of like singles artists where

the ability to produce a huge smash is on a other level. A huge streaming smash. I don't think that's what Taylor Swift does. And that's okay. No, I agree with that. I'm using that to, but. Arana has more Instagram followers than Twitter. want to make an argument about scale is a fairly useful data point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ariana in some ways is bigger than Taylor in terms of her social presence, in terms of her, like, get you to click on and focus on one thing. For Taylor, it's always been about the canon.

That's the difference between these two artists. Like, Ariana is... I'm not at all trying to make a point here about, like, who is bigger or who does something better, like, whatever. No, no, no. What I am trying to do is illustrate that when we say this album does a and have a hit that is only true within the Ariana Grande hit universe. I think she's going to figure out who she is now that her Saturn is returned.

I'm ready for no more Saturn return albums. Let's get a Jupiter return album. How long does it take Jupiter? Saturn is 29 years. What about is there a Uranus return? First of all, as someone who's 30th birthday is in like a month, this is offensive to me personally. Hopefully you're going to figure out who you are, Nora. I always enjoy talking about these things with you. It wasn't so bad, was it? It was great. I knew it would, I knew.

I knew we were going to have stuff to talk about. Let's listen to Supernova. Let's do it. All right. This has been every single other. Supernatural. Supernova. Now you're changing lyrics.

What does it mean? It was all the cosmic shit that got to me. All right. This has been every single album. I'm Norm Pryantiati. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you, as always, to Kaya McMullen for producing this episode.

And we'll talk to you soon.