Every Single Album - Everything You Want to Know About TS12

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

Nora and Nathan are not quite done talking about Taylor Swift's forthcoming album, 'The Life of a Showgirl,' so they opened up the mailbag to answer some listener questions. They talk about what some of the songs could be about based on their names (1:00), whether Taylor will release a single off of this album (14:53), and how having Max Martin and Shellback as the exclusive producers for this record will affect the sound (27:46). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Pryanti and I am joined as always by Nathan Hubbard. Back talking more TS-12. Are you ready to go? Are you ready to go through some mailbag questions, Nathan? Yes, they've been bombarding us on social media platforms with these questions. We might as well do them together. We love to be bombarded. Such great questions as always. We're going to get to a bunch of them. We can try to hit some ones that we're going to miss in this pod just via Instagram. But there's a lot of crossover. So as usual, we tried to pick stuff that sort of was going to help us cover multiple topics. Let's just acknowledge right off the bat that as we pod, there is yet another countdown, Nathan. Will there always be a countdown? Well, first of all, yes, the countdowns, it is such a

driver of anxiety. It's like, what's, God, it's like there's a bomb that's going to go off. I think we're going to, you know, here's what we're going to do. And in full disclosure, I love you guys so much. And we often try to drop everything to spring into action to cover everything that Taylor does. I'm at my grandma's house and I have to go to the airport. So we will do our best to update if there's anything that we need to update about. But I do think that we're going to finish this pod before she posts the end of the countdown. So just, you know, enjoy this moment in real time with us. And we will get to speculate a little bit in terms of some of the things that we think might

be coming eventually and could possibly be coming today. We don't know. And hopefully that'll be really fun. And if it's something seismic, of course, we will find a way to get back on the mics or in some way, shape, or form, share thoughts and feelings. I have no doubt there will be many chances for us all to get together and talk TS12 between 2 p.m. Eastern today and between now and October 3rd. Oh, good Lord. Okay. Shall we kick things off? Shall we jump into the questions? Let's go. By the way, in honor of TS12, I've selected either 12 or 13 questions. You guys will have to wait

until the end of the podcast to find out if we're subscribing to Baker's Dozen Theory and that there are, in fact, 13. But let's start with number one from Amy. What tracks are you two claiming in advance of hearing them? Nathan, you start. Well, the one I'm absolutely claiming is father figure because I am a massive George Michael fan, and in particular, I'm a massive fan of his album Faith. It is a top five all-timer for me. And so whether or not she is sampling, George Michael's father figure in that song. I have to have it. You can't have anything else.

You are a father. That makes sense. I like that as your chosen song. What do you make of the fact that George Michael has kind of become the pop-girly sample well of the last... I mean, Lord did it a few years ago,

but we had the Heim girls doing it earlier this summer, potentially Taylor on this album. Everybody loves George Michael. everybody should love George Michael. George Michael is and was the shit and he was in lots of ways at the center of the pop girlies in the peak of his powers. I mean, the Freedom 90 video, I've said this many times. It's the second greatest video ever made besides Michael Jackson's thriller video. And I mean no shade on any other video that's been made. But that in the moment had the It Girl. It was kind of the like, it. It was like the 360 video, but like if it had every single It Girl in the moment. And at a moment in time when you didn't get to see all those people regularly on the internet. So having them all in one, anyway, I think that that left a massive impression.

And also just his music is fucking awesome. Yeah. I mean, if you think of the sort of, at least what I've interpreted as the signals aesthetics of the life of a showgirl, which one question that I actually didn't put in here, but that came up in a couple of different variations that I thought was interesting was, do you think this album is going to be more 1989 or reputation? And the reason I didn't put it in was because I'm not sure that it's just that binary, right? Like it can be something, it can be a third thing. But I guess if I have to choose between those two, I think more 1989. And if we're working with a George Michael sample, that very much fits into that.

right? Like there's something brighter about that. And my guess has been that that brightness as opposed to the still pop bombast but darker qualities of reputation are more

in line with where she seems to be going on this one. And I guess that's one little clue for me as to why. But curious to hear it, certainly. See, I don't know. I guess I've just anchored myself in the word joy.

And I feel like this might be the anti-reputation in that it's not going to be coming from a place of anger or revenge. So many of the things that she has tapped into to fuel her writing, I mean, I'm sure there will be some on this, but I just, I keep coming back to two things that she said while sitting next to Travis.

And the first, you know, after she said that, this came from a place of joy and the pivot of her life that she spoke about so often on that pod, calling him the human exclamation point, calling him depth without darkness. And I just wonder if part of the creative,

not evolution, but the new part of this album is going to be Taylor Swift, full of joy for a succinct 12 banger after banger record, which is something that we haven't really ever heard from her before. That's what gets me so excited about it, is a person whose personal life is seemingly as healthy and happy as it's ever been. Her professional life, you know, these songs were recorded before she got her

catalog back, at least as far as we can tell. But she was in the middle of a record-setting, world-breaking, you know, industry-defining tour. Like, everything seemed to be. be coming up roses for her. And she seemed to indicate to us that in that moment as they were running around having dinners in Italy and everywhere else while she was secretly going to Sweden, that those were the feelings that were driving her in the moment. I mostly agree. I do look at the titles and look, I mean, if you tell me to list artists that I would associate with like the feeling of pure joy, George Michael is a really, really good answer to that question. So that fits in as well. I do look at some of the track titles, you do have a couple words in there like ruin the friendship.

Cancel. Like there's, I don't think that this is going to be an album that doesn't have any edge. Like that doesn't have any element of something a little bit spicy or difficult. It wouldn't be like her. I'll give you that. But, you know, ruin the friendship could also be like two people who are friends and decide to evolve to, you know, be romantic. It could be the Selena Gomez-Bennoz story. Exactly. Totally. Like we don't know.

But it could also be something else. And I'm, I, I guess I just think that her personal defiance has been such a theme these last, I was going to say these last few years, but like basically forever. I just don't really believe that we'll get none of that. But I do agree with you that I think the sort of overarching vibes will be joyful. Mine, there's that stretch tracks 8 through 10 where you have wish list with the dollar signs, canceled with the exclamation point. You know I love when she uses punctuation in the titles.

And then Wood, which we got a lot of questions about wood. And whatever is going on there and we'll get to that. That is an unhinged three. Well, okay. I'm just saying that that three song chunk, I'm fascinated by because it just seems like the most unhinged stretch in the album. And, you know, that's right up my alley. It is right up your alley. My working assumption is that canceled has to be about the Trump shit.

It just has to be. So here's my question about that. Then why does it have the British spelling? That's my dream scenario. I so hope you're right. But I am trying to untangle why, if that is true, if this is a song that has to do with the president of the United States. And now look, some of this stuff was taking place while she was abroad.

So perhaps it has to do what, you know, you see a newspaper headline and they're using a non-American spelling. But the Easter egg of the second L in how she writes the title is the one thing that's making me go, Yeah, I mean There is a line in part of the band by the 1975 penned by Maddie Healy And My My My Cance And My My Cancellation But I don't

I mean she also like dated a London boy for six years and she has a house there, and she was in Europe while creating this. And maybe she didn't... Oh, no, don't say it out loud, Nathan. Of course it was intentional. But let's see. It's the all caps for me.

There's no chance it's not intentional. It's just the all caps for me that feels like at some point she's going to have to reference the... You know, she hasn't been hot since I did. You know, all the fucking bullshit. You would think she never really lets... She always punches up.

Let's put it that way. And she is in such rarefied air that there are very few people for whom when she punches up, she could land a blow. And this is one of them. But this is one of them. No, I'm really, I'm really hoping. I'm really, really hoping. That would be super, super fun. Now, what is your thinking on, let's just go to wood?

Let's go to wood. Let's go to wood. Nathan, let me tell you, I got no fucking clue. Wood? I mean, look, there's the obvious read. I don't want to tell you how many questions submitted via my Instagram contained the word girthy. Oh, God. I'm just telling you. About this song?

Yeah, about, about wood. I'm just the messenger. I'm just telling you what the people are saying. Yeah. She really does sort of think of Travis as a superhero, which is great. I mean, the whole, like, you could throw me over a mountain and then run over and catch me stuff was great. She just, like, in deflecting any praise for her own athleticism, she, you know, diverted it into praising, yes, one of the all-time great football players for understandably being a great athlete. But I don't know. Is that people's minds are just like, hey, it's wood.

People's minds are in the gut or on wood. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. Can you come up with like what what's another alternative? Well, I mean, she has been a wood fairy for years. You know, she's been to the cottage core. I mean, this is not something that is that far from a far afield from things she's written about before. Interesting. Or perhaps something football players love to say is keep chopping wood.

And I will say that that's where my mind. went. I don't know. It's so, I mean, or like, what's the wooden anniversary? I can look it up. But I just, I don't know what to make of that. Clearly, that is a common sentiment amongst the fan base. If I could bet against it being related to somebody's package, I would absolutely do that. This does not feel like a, I don't know. I mean, it's too, like, I think I agree with you because it's too graphic, although I do kind of think this album is going to be a bit horny on Maine. Oh, it's definitely going to be

horny on Maine. There's no doubt. Starting with the fate of Ophelia. Yeah. Because see in the moment, she was horny on Maine. It's great. No, totally. Totally. I'll respect. I'll love and respect. Yeah, I don't know if I would go so far to say that that means that I'm claiming

would. But maybe I am. You might want to get in on it just in case. I'm certainly buying shares in wood. It is fair to say that none of these songs sort of roll off the tongue as a single other than maybe actually romantic. Maybe actually romantic.

I do wonder about opalite. Just, you know, that's a little bit esoteric, no pun intended, or no reference intended. Wait, can we come back to that? Yeah, say that. Sure. But let's come back to esoteric.

I just can see that. I mean, it's track three. Like, I can just see that being a banger. I also could kind of see track 12 with Sabrina being single worthy. You're making a face. Yeah. You don't agree. No, no, no.

I 100% agree. Okay. I don't understand why it's last. I think it's probably, well, I have a theory. as to why it's last is just so that they can kind of like do a little eras tour send off. Aris tor-esque send off. But I don't think that it's last because it's like she wants people to go to it last. It also might honestly, maybe it's a little bit of insurance against the thing that,

obviously 12 songs is a lot less to get through than something like tortured poets, but you did have the phenomenon with an album that long where the songs that were towards the end, of the anthology got listened to a lot less. And so maybe by putting, you know, air apparent one of the biggest pop stars of the moment on the final song on your album, you are spreading the wealth a little bit between the songs at the top and the songs at the bottom.

Right. Possible? Yeah, it is. I think that the attempt on this album is to make 12 fully singlable songs. I think that that's what she was going for. Like they closed the doors and they're like, all right, it's three goats in a room.

Let's fucking go. So I don't know that does the order matter? Yeah, of course it does. It always matters in her world. But it doesn't make me think that necessarily in this moment, she's trying to put, you know, as we examine lots of albums on this pod, a lot of times they're putting the singles early, right? because you want to get people streaming there.

Let's just see. Let's see if maybe... I could see that being a single, is my point. What did you want me to get back to about esoteric? Okay. So I think he nailed the definition of esoteric. Explain. Like, he almost read word for word

what is in the, like, Oxford Dictionary. So read this to me. intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest. I think he got it right. And I think he's like, I don't think that's, but I don't, I like hate, I really don't want to be a hater here. I just like, and it doesn't matter, but I do think that he said it sort of means different things to different people. Wasn't going there. Wasn't doing it. It's great. It's great. I think he nailed it. That's all I'm saying. We can keep going.

Okay. Well, okay, so this is sort of a, this is sort of a piggyback off of what we were just talking about. This is a question from Grace. Do you think Taylor will release a single soon to be included in the 2025 Grammy cutoff? Grace, I think it's coming in about one hour, 27 minutes and 12 seconds. Let's see if this will be a great way to find out if we're right. We've certainly been wrong. before, but that's what I think is happening at the end of the countdown. I don't think she's releasing the single. I think she's announcing that the single will come out like on Friday or something.

Right. And that way she could... I'm happy to have my neck chopped off. But that's what's happening. So let's talk a little bit about the logic of doing that. So this album is not going to be eligible for the Grammys this February. It's going to come out

in October. It's going to be past the deadline. If she released before the last Saturday of this month, any song, that song will be eligible for things like Record of the Year, Song of the Year. What do you think about the reasoning of sort of bifurcating where stuff from this cycle could be awarded and recognized? Because she has four album of the year,

Grammy's sitting around her many homes, And she does not have song or records of the year Grammys. And that's what she wants now. And I think that's the point of this album is to put together 12 super tight, winnable song or records of the year. I can't wait to see which one they think is the most worthy. And because, let's be clear, outside of anti-hero, which they got super right,

most of the time when they pick the first single, it's not super right. Yeah, but if she is an album of 20, 12 bangers, all of which are like single worthy, then she can't pick wrong. That's what I'm hoping for here. That's what I'm hoping for. Do you think, like, how do you think that goes with voters? Do you think there's any, like, potential risk to kind of being like, I want you to think about my album this year and next year? No, I don't think it's going to affect voters. I think the thing that's,

going to affect voters as if this song resonates and goes big. And, you know, like, we haven't had our song of the summer conversation yet, Nora, but for me, I'm not seeing one. I mean, maybe it's Manchild. Maybe it's Sally when the wine runs out. Maybe it's, but there's not something that is ubiquitous. 2024 was very special in that regard and that we had sort of multiple songs of the summer. This, there's a vacuum right now. And. And there's a, in particular a vacuum for stuff that feels pop. Like stuff that feels pop, stuff that feels like this is what you're supposed to play on the way to the beach.

Where like, and part of it, like we do sort of live in the shadow of espresso, right? Like, we had it so clearly. And then it's just not here. I do,

like, I don't think this is why. But I do think that she has the chance to really be seizing an opening. Yeah. And obviously some of that. you know, we're going to be getting Sabrina and she has that same chance too and they can do it together or maybe there will be a little bit of like, who do we pay attention to? But I agree with you that if I had to guess what is coming at the end of this countdown,

it will be a single. I do think that we will get a single before the album. I do think that we will get a single before the Grammy deadline. I hadn't thought about it in terms of her not having that particular trophy. I guess I think that as awards focused as she can be, I just think she's searching for something a little bit different, but it can be both. So I think that's a really smart take by you. A question from Molly that I think is a good follow-up to this. I believe she's incapable of not dropping a second surprise on release night.

Any guesses. So this is obviously not the countdown that is going to. going on as we speak. This is, you know, it's, it's October 3rd. It's midnight. You and I are texting each other being like, I was going to go to bed, but I sort of feel like I shouldn't. And then all of a sudden it's two o'clock or three o'clock or whatever it is. And it's surprise, I have this second thing. A lot of people are speculating about this in particular because of the Pinocchio figurine, the cause Pinocchio figurine that was in the background of the New Heights Pod

suggesting that everyone is lying to us. Maybe. But like you and I, when we first saw the clips of this thing, you and I, through our text thread with Kaya, were breaking down the books in the background. And you were freaking out about a couple of the books. But then we realized that, like, on a bunch of the ringer podcast sets,

there's books in the background. And in fact, there were a few books that were in that background that are on polar set, right? Yeah, no, I was not, I was reacting to them in the sense of feeling like,

you know, I'm sure they could have stuck specific things in there, but I don't think that every one of these books. Like, there are just certain art books where I was like, first of all, this is on every podcast set ever.

And also, I just, like, the connections seem to too many degrees of separation. Like, I know people were pointing out that, like, Ruth Asawa died in 2013. And, like, just, just that felt tenuous to me. But that doesn't mean that I don't think that there are things like the Lombardi Trophy figuring, for instance, or the Pinocchio. Like, I'm sure there was stuff in there, but I don't think that every item in the background. had significance like that. I mean, I think the Pinocchio,

the most common reading of the Pinocchio is that she's lying about the amount of stuff that's going to be released. I personally think that the number of songs that are going to be part of this is either 12 or 13. I would be... Because of the baker's dozen?

I think the, you know, yes, maybe the baker's dozen, ends up being a bit. Of course, 13 is 13. And the Pinocchio could relate to that as well. I would be... That was the best one I came up with, Nora. Dear neither. I feel pretty certain that we're going to get 12 songs.

And I think you're right. Look, here's the thing. She is now using the fan base as like ChatGPT to create some of these Easter eggs. In other words, she doesn't have to do that much. she can announce just a few things fairly directly. And then the fan base goes and connects all kinds of shit. Like, hey, is she playing the Super Bowl because of the sour, like all of the clues?

And the 90 was there and it's upside down. And she said something about that and the Super Bowl trophy was on its side. And like, she doesn't need to think that hard because y'all think that hard. And I think she like selectively picks a few things from the insanity that gets put out there and actually brings them to life. Like we are, it's the definition of manifesting. The fan base is manifesting some of these things to come true. So it wouldn't surprise me if she takes from this,

oh, everybody's talking about the baking and the, well, a baker's dozen is actually 13. Okay, fine, let's release a 13th track. I just, I don't know. It would be weird and hard to process a lot of the information that she puts out on a go-forward basis if she spent the entirety of that podcast like intentionally misleading everyone.

Like she, that doesn't feel like her. There are some hard truths to the tale of thing. Like, I take her at her word when she says this came from a place of joy. I take her at her word when she says, this is 12 songs, there aren't more coming. Because if she just said there's a dozen, then I would have said,

ooh, maybe she's messing with us. But she said 12 songs and there aren't. aren't more coming. I think she was very intentional about this album. She heard the little bits of criticism on tortured poets, which were, you know, there aren't as many bangers and it's a 31 song brain dump. Could you work with a different producer this time? Could you tighten up the track list and could you focus on bangers were probably the three, if everybody injected themselves with truth serum and allowed themselves to exist in a world in which the most successful and most famous woman is allowed to be given tiny bits of constructive criticism on what to do next.

I think people would say, those are my three big wishes for the most part. If we had a, if we had sort of ranked choice voting, that that's where it would come from. And she did it. And that's, it is the beauty of the back and forth, whether or not she is online or not, is an online person or not. She's still getting the feedback and listening and adjusting on a go-forward basis. I think we're getting 12 songs. I think we're going to get a documentary a little bit later

in the cycle, and it may be that all of those who want the 2 a.m. release are going to be disappointed at this go-round. Well, we will get to see who is right about that. That will be interesting. Nathan thinks waiting a little bit longer for the doc, stopping

at 12. I think she can't help herself. There will be something. If it's not the doc, it is going to be that Baker's Dozen. But I kind of think it's more likely to be the dock. So let's switch gears a tiny bit and talk a little bit more about the producers, because this was another thing that came up a lot of a lot in questions. And a bunch of those were related to some of the, is it drawing more 1989, is it drawing more reputation? But there seemed to also be a lot of questions about the lack of Jack Antonoff.

And in particular, this Margaret Quali interview on one of the morning shows where she was asked about if she knew anything about Taylor's upcoming music. And she did answer it a little bit awkwardly. Amy asks, Jack's wife on GMA was awkward, right? The question sucked, but also, you guys good Jack? You mentioned your husband, Jack, who of course, has produced with Taylor for years. Perhaps you heard she's got a new album that's coming out. Can you tell us anything about it?

I don't know anything, but we'll all be excited to listen to the music. Okay. All right. Okay. I will start with this one, Nathan. Yeah, I think, like, I really don't think that this is a big deal. I think she was caught off guard by a question. She's like not involved in it, didn't know what to say, didn't want to say too much, didn't want to say too little. Is it like, I don't know.

I think people have professional sensitivities about a lot of things. So is it possible that there's like a little bit of a Jack understands, but it's sort of hard to let go anyway bit and she doesn't want to elude? Like I think all of that is entirely possible. I have to say there were, there have been moments in the last. five years where I felt like Jack's style was so ubiquitous and so, like, it was so hard to find any of the main women in pop who weren't working with him and who weren't sort of all sounding a little bit like they were converging on that same style. I don't really feel that way anymore. And I think the stuff that Jack is out on his own doing, like with Kendrick, there's some of

rumors that he's working with Doja Cat on something. Like, I think this is going to be good for him in the same ways that it's good for Taylor. I think they're genuinely really good friends. I just don't think that this is that big of a deal. I think she has always been someone who zigs and zags, and it just was time. Yeah, I'd say two things. One is this album was recorded a year ago. Jack has known that this was going on for a year,

and there are hundreds of examples of them supporting each other and doing things together over the past. year. So there is not hard feelings about this happening. Number two, you need to understand the level to which the information about this album has been controlled like it's state secrets, like state nuclear secrets. And the reason that the question got awkward is because Margaret doesn't really, like she cares about her friendship with Taylor and Jack's relationship with Taylor and she doesn't want to say the wrong thing. And shame on whoever was the PR person for not prepping her for a possible question about this. But like, I think that was just a reflection of her knowing that

this shit is on lockdown. I mean, when I tell you that there are people, I don't think anybody in the Sabrina Carpenter camp has heard this song. I think the only person in the Sabrina Carpenter camp who's heard it as Sabrina Carpenter. I think the only person the Sabrina Carpenter camp who's heard the song is Sabrina Carpenter. Like, that's how tight stuff is locked up right now. And it's great. And it should be because this shit leaks in ways that, you know, can be detrimental to the rollout of the album on and on.

I will say this. Like, on the leak front, it seems to me that a lot of the leaking is coming from vinyl. And, you know, you do have a choice. I know that you care about first week. numbers. And here I'm just speaking to any artist. Artists care about first week numbers and honestly, because of the antiquated way in which we do the math to determine. Are you about to tell Taylor Swift to not do vinyl?

Who's out? No, I'm not. But I am going to say that if you want to, you got to take ownership of the fact that commerce is driving the release of vinyl, the pre-order of vinyl before first week sales, because you get credit for those vinyl sales and the, the first week, and it goes towards charting your album at number one. You could sell the same amount of vinyl to the same passionate fan base, but not start selling it or releasing it until after the album comes out to avoid what invariably happens, which is that somebody in the vinyl plant takes pictures of stuff, or they rip a digital copy of the album, and that is how this music leaks. And so you got to own that you are accepting risk of leaks in service of commerce.

And that's okay. Like it's an artist choice to do that. But that's how this is happening. And it's a choice. It's a choice. Yeah. And I actually think, like, I don't think that she is, now it's frustrating to have anything go down, not the way that you wanted to go down.

I don't really think that there's tangible harm. to her rollout from the leaks. I do think it creates a little bit of a challenging decision point for fans, which is, you know, what can you participate in and what can you not? If you don't want to see any leaked information, you can't really go on Reddit. You got to get off the internet. Yeah, you got to get off the internet. And so that, like, I am sympathetic to that.

I do think that it's not really that big of a deal. And I guess I have to imagine that on some level, while it must be very frustrating, her camp thinks so too, because they're smart enough to know that this is one of the challenges of doing so much with vinyl. And obviously, they're continuing to do that. Yeah, I think when the music leaks in advance,

that's problematic for me. Because in that case, you really are like, money out of the pocket of the artist. If you're streaming it through some file that you got, and it's not running through a DSP, a digital service provider like Apple or Spotify or Amazon, like it's not actually getting counted and the artist isn't getting paid.

And to me, that just feels yucky. When it's the photos and stuff. It's hard. I mean, like, because it's everywhere. Like, Pop Crave is posting about stuff. Like, what are you going to do? Not address it or not talk about? a lot of the, a lot of the, the, the, the, the, the chatter about the track list that, that started was,

was, was because of some of those things. So I, it's a very delicate subject and I don't know that there's a right answer, but I do think that just generally speaking, my overarching advice to artists is one way to stop a lot of this stuff from getting out is to stop sending your stuff to a vinyl plant. Not, not, um, in perpetuity, but before the, release of the album because it just feels like that is the source of a lot of what's happening. Totally. But also, we think things are basically good with Jack. So that's cool. Things are fine with Jack. Okay. They needed a break. It's fine. Like, they needed this. Jack works with other artists. Taylor works with other producers. This is a good thing. They'll go off into the

world. You know, in the tech world, like, this happens at Google all the time. Like, people leave Google. and they go off and they start companies or they work elsewhere. And they like just get DNA from other places. They have other life experiences. They learn. They expand their mind. They call it a boomerang. Those people come back to Google.

And it helps Google because then they get that infusion of knowledge. And it becomes institutionalized. It helps the company overall get better. If you think about Taylor Inc., her going off and working with somebody else, even if it's somebody that she's worked with before, this time though, as she's articulated in a very different way, Jack Goves often works in other genres, other places. They're just getting stronger and better and more reps and more ideas that when they inevitably come together, whether it's for TS-13 or TS-35, they both will be better at their craft and it will spark something that's new and different and that feels fresh for both of them, but most importantly for the listener.

So this is a really good thing. Well, and same for Max and Shelbeck, right? So there's two questions that maybe we can talk about here together. One was a question from Pip that I thought was a really smart reminder of something that sometimes we allude to without really getting into it, which is asking for a reminder of Max and Shelbeck's recent work. And then we had a question from Andy that was, does Taylor run the risk of sounding regressive by going back to the turbopopopop of 1989?

And so I'll call out something that Max and Shelbeck worked on. recently that I really loved, which was, of course, Ariana Grande's Eternal Sunshine. Right. And an album that... Wait for your love is the shit. I fucking love that album. And I think that album is produced immaculately.

Like, remember when we did that episode and I was just like screaming my head off the entire time about how just good it all sounded? That's my dream for some of that special. Secret Sauce to have been in the room for the life of the showgirl. The only bummer about that album for me was that there wasn't a transcendent like Ariana super hit. Ariana is not the songwriter that Taylor Swift is. So Tay's going to bring melody, she's going to bring ideas.

You combine that with what Max and Shelbeck did on that album. And I couldn't be more excited. I do not think it has the risk. of sounding regressive. I don't think they're going to allow themselves to go backwards. I think this is exactly. It's been a decade since they did this work together. Now they're back taking the DNA of their other experiences and going at it.

It's, I mean, yes, please. Yeah, I also just don't think that, I don't, I don't think that another album that has some of 1989's DNA is going to, to spark on is Taylor Swift reheating her own nachos kind of conversation in the way that, for instance, like, if she was doing another album in the vein of folklore, Evermore, of course, it's like a little bit more specific, I think maybe we would have questions about whether she was dipping into the same well a lot. But 1989, it was just so singular and so, like, the aesthetics and the references were so big and big tent pop that I think you sidestep a little bit of that.

I have to say, I'm, I think it's an interesting question. I was thrilled to see people bring it up because I think it's thought-provoking. I'm not worried about this at all. Like, maybe it's just because I love those sounds. but I'm not worried about that in the slightest. Okay. Here's a little conspiracy corner that I've been very excited to address. And I thought we got this question so many times and I just, I picked this particular

phrasing of it because it made me laugh. This was from JMC. How long have you known that the 49ers mascot was a carbohydrate? And then in parentheses, Super Bowl question mark. The San Francisco 49ers mascot, of course, sour d. Sam. Sourdough, a current hyperfixation of one Taylor Allison Swift. The Super Bowl halftime show, something that I think Taylor would like to perform at. Super Bowl is in San Francisco.

And the Super Bowl, Super Bowl 60, which she said the number 60 in the pod. Super Bowl 60 is in San Francisco, or technically Santa Clara. Because the San Francisco 49ers don't actually play anywhere near San Francisco, really. No, it's far as shit from San Francisco. I want to hear from you, Nathan, because you've been a real Taylor halftime show skeptic on whether or not your spidey senses have started to tingle at all from this.

And then I will tell you where I am. Of course they've started to tingle because she just... Every time I think that she's going to rest, she doesn't. I mean, and it, you know, knowing that this could be it and that, I mean, what a storyline for it to be Travis's last, you know, game. And there she is performing halftime.

I mean, they just, it will be enough already. She also did make that joke at the beginning of the pod where she said the last thing that men want in their spaces is more of me. And that may be why she's stepped back. I'll tell you this, I'm actually more interested in what's going to happen in September or October. September 21st, the Chiefs play at the Giants at 820 in that... I will be there.

I think it's the Sunday night game. It is. And that is two weeks before the album release, but you could see them taking over the city of New York and her playing the premiere of SNL the night before if that's when it happens. Or the following week, it's Ravens at Chiefs. You could see or maybe do the SNL then.

I guess after that, I think the chiefs play Jacksonville in Jacksonville on Monday night. That's a little bit less exciting. From a hair standpoint, certainly. Yes. I imagine that there's going to be something that she does around those games that seem more interesting to me. I'm sure I'm going to be wrong, but I will just go out and say, I don't, I mean,

they would love to have her. I don't think she's going to play the Super Bowl. I don't either. Let me just say why, if I can. I think that Taylor continues to redefine the economic relationship between artists and the industry. And artists are not paid to play the Super Bowl. And I wonder if you're Taylor Swift, if at some point you feel like that arrangement seems a bit unfair. Now it's the Super Bowl.

Like the Super Bowl doesn't need Taylor. And Taylor doesn't need the Super Bowl. But I do wonder if that maybe at some point is a... I don't know that's a hill she's going to die on. I'm sure she'd love to do it. Yeah. But I also wonder if, like, she also could think about, like, why do I need to do that just because everybody else has?

Like, does she need to follow Rihanna? Does she need to follow Gaga? Do she, you know what I mean? Maybe the coolest, cooler thing to do is to not do it. She doesn't need to follow anyone. I will say I think she wants to do it. I do think she wants to do a Super Bowl halftime show. I mean, just think about, like, first of all,

just think about the spaces that she's in in her life right now. And I always love, like, and I loved this long before she and Travis were together. But when you go into those stadiums, they have all those photos hanging on the walls. of not only games that have been played, but artists who have come and performed. And I used always just like, I don't know, whenever I would walk past a photo of Taylor Swift, I would be like, oh, there's my girl.

So like watching over me in this space that is very male and very masculine and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. She's obviously seeing that all the time. It does seem like the type of spectacle, the type of monocultural moment that she really thrives in. it seems like for someone who doesn't have a lot of hills left to climb, this is not to say that she needs the Super Bowl in any way, shape, or form. If anything, I agree with you.

I don't think they need her. I don't think she needs them. It's just do they want to do it? But I can see that being something where, you know, it's like the record of the year thing. She doesn't need it, but it's a goalpost for someone who doesn't have a ton of those. And so I bet she wants to do one. I don't think the NFL would say No, not while Travis is playing.

I do think that's a bit of a hurdle. I think there is a little bit of a, like, and I guess I could see them being like, could you imagine what if the chiefs win? Like, what if they're playing? What if they win? And then Taylor does the halftime show, it's like the hugest pinnacle spectacle

of the two of them coming together. But she'll miss some of the game. But she would miss some of the game. She will miss some of the game. She would miss some of the game. She would not be able to be a fan in the way that it seems like she really enjoys being a fan. And then look, there's also, like, it's a real relationship, right? Like, he could get hurt.

What happens if in the, what happens if the Chiefs make the Super Bowl? Taylor Swift is at halftime. And, you know, God forbid, but second quarter, he gets carted off. Like, I just, I think there are too many sort of weird scenarios with it. Edge cases. It's something she really wants to do. She will wait until after he's retired. I also imagine that if you are the league,

you are, that is maybe the one case in which you're thinking about the dads, and chads a little bit. Of, like, is there something almost unfair or unseemly about, given that someone's boyfriend plays for one of the preeminent teams in the league and one of the perennial Super Bowl favorites, if she's doing it and they're in it,

does it just make it kind of not fun for anybody on the other side? And the people on the other side of the Chiefs are going to be the people who are buying a lot of the tickets because Chiefs fans have had so many opportunities lately. They don't show up to Super Bowls like Eagles. Like there are some teams that if it's

a matchup with the chiefs, the other fan base is going to pack the stadium because they're more starved for it. So that's why I think no. The sourdough thing, admittedly very funny, but I still think no. Very funny. And the one thing, here's the one thing about the numbers that I have to just chide people a little bit with love. The part of this where it's like, she said 47 twice. And so then you have a 47 and you have a 47 and you have a 7. have a two, so 47 plus two equals 49. We have to be serious, guys. We have to pull it together. We do. Even for me, that was a bridge too far. I don't know. I'm just looking at a countdown clock that's now at 42 minutes and 10 seconds, just knowing I'm going to get clowned. I'm going to

get totally clowned. How many times do you think we're going to get clowned before the end of this roll out, like nine. Okay. So you said earlier that you think that she is going for 12 out of 12 bangers. And a question jumping off that is about what that means for track five. Leah said, will track five be sad? What do you think eldest daughter will be about? Will it still be a bop?

Well, no track five is not going to be sad. Yes, it's still going to be a bop. Do you have any conspiracy theories about what it's actually about? I don't know. I mean, I get, like, I don't know that the... She is an eldest daughter, I guess, by definition. She is an eldest daughter.

She's talked so much. The thing that would, like, make me cry is if it's a song that has some of the themes that she's brought up about, like, getting to the age where you sort of start to parent your parents a little bit, and obviously her parents have had a number of health situations over the years. The more recent ones, I think, taking place after this album was done. So the stuff with her dad and the bypass surgery, I don't think that quite matches up. That's the application

of eldest daughter that would like have me in a puddle. I do agree with you that I think this is like a dancing on my own kind of sad banger. I don't think it's going to be like sudden ballad. Yeah. I just watching Travis, who clearly isn't familiar with the entire catalog in a very sweet way, she was like, yeah, that wasn't on the Eros tour. You don't know that one. Like, he hasn't gone back and studied. Although, I know, but Travis, you got to listen to Red. That's a great song.

He's definitely listened to Red. It's just like, he doesn't, you know, he's got a day job. I don't know. She said you don't know that one. Yeah. But because it wasn't on the tour. But that's a sweet thing. Like, I'm sure he's listened to all the albums at some point. You just can't expect him to categorize.

all 200 and whatever songs in the in the in the in the discography but the point is his reaction to how oh actually sorry nathan can i can i say one thing about that that i don't know if we covered this when we talked about the pod but it actually did really strike me i think there's like a there's a part of how he is with her where the vibe is biggest fan like the biggest wifty on earth has actually a Taylor Swift boyfriend. And that's very sweet. Yeah. Something that came through to me a little bit more for the first time watching that, that I actually think makes a lot of sense, is that, yes, I'm sure that that's really, like the admiration and the feeling sort of just in awe of the person, I think that's totally genuine. And I totally get that. But there is a thing that

runs parallel to that, where neither of them knew very much about the other's background or life or what they did. And I actually, like to me, being Taylor Swift or Travis Kelsey, to a lesser extent, but still, and having a chance to spend time with someone who just doesn't have any of your baggage and doesn't have any, like, that I think must be 50 times more appealing. than, like, I don't think if I were her, I would want to date someone who was, like, reciting every word of all-to-all-10-minute version. Other side of the door fucking critiques. I think you're right. I think the opportunity to teach somebody else about you.

Well, and to have that not be the reason you're together, right? Like, to have it be specific to the relationship instead of, to her stature. He was engulfed in the curiosity of meeting you, or whatever that line was. I mean, he did, there was something about, like, you know, watching her perform live and wanting to meet her so badly. I mean, there was the, like, I want to meet the star. But then I think, you know, as he, again, very, very sweetly laid out,

the opportunity to just, like, closed doors. And this is what you hear about her, my own experience, everybody's experience with her in a room is that she's a pro, as Travis has said, like she will make you feel like she is your friend in the room. She's a hugger. She can get, she can manage the weird reactions that anybody has. She can converse. She is exceedingly normal in those rooms.

And I think that appealed obviously to him and gave them a great forum to learn about each other's craft. I will say in this moment, the most interesting question is, has Taylor learned more about football than Travis has learned about the Taylor universe? Like, who is now more of an expert? And the cover zero, cover two, cover four stuff versus him not knowing a song from Red

maybe made me think that Taylor actually has gone deeper in her own mind-expanding learning of this sport. Oh, I think she almost certainly has. Yeah. I think, and I, yeah, and I don't think that that's, I think that's great. Because I just, I just think that it's a little bit less, comes with a little bit less baggage than like, if Travis truly went full clown mask,

I think that would be strange. Like if he went total, you know, diehard fan, it would just be like, I don't know. I'm just speaking for myself, but I would, I would... Yeah, I appreciate that he's... What did you think about him not knowing the lyrics to read? Like, as if it was sort of like a betrayal. And I was kind of like, like...

It's great. Not like hottest he's ever been. But I was like, I bet if you're her, that's like awesome. That's like... Yeah. Leaving some space for the fan base. Yeah. Yeah. It gives her her own world that she's still the queen of

and he doesn't have to be in. He doesn't have to know all of that. There can be some, hey, honey, how was work today? Yeah. Like, she can teach him some stuff. She can bring some things home that he doesn't have to already innately know about. Yeah, he's not bringing his preexisting feelings about it to that. Like, I just, yeah, I can't imagine that as anything but healthy.

Do you have any thoughts about what eldest daughter will be about other than my theory or positing? No, I like that. I do think that she's in a moment of reflection, and I wonder if that's, yes, if she's referring to herself. Okay. We have two questions left. I'm going to go with one that was specifically for you,

which is from Leslie. I would like Nathan's opinion on whether Bev will make an appearance on TS-12. Well, first of all, I hope so. All of us know that Bev is waiting in the wings. I'm right here. and the problem is Bev is a jack trick

and Max is less likely to use a jack trick so it may be that just like Jack and Aaron Bev is going to have to sit this one out so I would love to be happy I'm sure there will be some vocal distortion stuff like just think about like that da da tat tat tat ta ta ta ta ta

like that stuff was all Max and Shell So we're going to have plenty of reputation slash 1989 stuff. But I have an inkling that Bev may unfortunately be watching from the sidelines. We love you, Bev. We'll be watching with you. We'll be listening with you. Bev, gone but not forgotten. Thanks. Thanks. Bev, the third member of this podcast. Thank you, Max Martin.

No, we don't stand by that. Here's the last thing that I think we should go out on. A strangely controversial topic, which is the album cover and the album art. So this is a question from Kristen, although it echoed many questions. What are your thoughts on the cover art? I've seen a lot of people not liking it. And I have to say, I too have seen some people who have had a more negative reaction. I've also seen a bunch of people and talk to a bunch of people

who've looked at the cover art and said things like the cover art is the clap back to Trump. She's never looked hotter. This is the most beautiful photograph I've ever seen. Like, oh my God, it's so glamorous. I've also heard people be like, this seems like it was strangely edited. She looks like she has a beard made out of water.

What's going on here? I really like it. I think it's great. I think it has a moodiness. I think, like, there is this very showgirl at rest vibe, both to the clothes, you know, the sparkly leotard, but also just something in the gays. So I'm definitely in the like, she looks awesome camp,

but I have just been really struck by how polarizing this album art is. Nathan, what say you? I don't want to wade into the waters of this bathtub any further than need be. I mean, it's like there's a painting of Ophelia. Yep. From the 19th century, right, where she's floating like lifeless in a river, but here you have Swift alive. It does, like, it almost looks like a crime scene a little bit to me.

Yes. Until she explained it as, you know, it's supposed to be this window into what's going on behind the scenes. But I think you're right to bring that up, that that's another example of something that has a little bit of edge, a little bit of, not darkness, but in this album that we are expecting to have a heavy emphasis on joy and lightness, the visual cues are a little different than that.

Like, not just the one that's on the, not just the one in the bathtub, but the, you know, the theater seating one where she's crawling over it. By the way, welcome back vigilante shit chair. We missed you. That showed up in some of the photographs. Like there are. Yeah.

It's not visually giving the type of joy that is sunshine and roses. Now, that may just be for the fact that the Ares Tour, was incredibly grueling, right? Like, she wasn't skipping. Tows separators. She was wearing toe separators. Like, it was an intense time. So maybe it's just that intensity

that's coming through. Anyway, I'm into it. I think she looks great. It did really strike a chord. There are people who think it's a terrible photo or assembly of photos. I don't know. I'm so much more focused on what's going to happen

in now 29 minutes and 50 seconds. I think this is album cover shm album cover. I don't know. Is there an album cover? Did you freak out over the 1989 Taylor's version album cover? I thought it was fine. Did it change the way I thought about the music? Now, give me the music.

And I think in 29 minutes and 30 seconds, she's going to give us the music. And that's going to be the defining thing, because I do think there's going to be a wow factor. I agree with you. The thing that I'm interested is less the art itself and more just like I just never would have expected this to be something that has been divisive

a little bit in this way. Well this is the risk that she ran this is the risk she runs by coming back as quickly as she has. It is. There's going to be some people who are just always going to look to throw daggers, right? There's always, by the way,

You know what's boring at this point? Yeah, but this seems like a fan-based thing. Okay. This, to me, like, I didn't know. You tell me what I'm, this may be that my internet is a little bit different, but what I'm, my guess, if I had to guess, it's that there, the people that I'm seeing be like, oh, I don't, I don't like these. Maybe just got a little too used to the braid. Right. And are responding to the fact that there's something, there's a little bit of an.

earthiness that's been taken away. That doesn't resonate with me, but that if I had to guess in terms of what I'm, what the people that I'm, what I'm seeing where it's coming from, that's what I would guess. I think this is much ado about nothing. I think it's just people pouring their shit into a vacuum because we don't have enough. And I think once this single, my God, what if it's like a clothing collection, And we just, oh, we get totally clowned. But let's just assume that there's going to be music out.

August slipped away like a bottle of wine cooler, set of coosies in the merch shop. Assuming that there is something substantive that's coming in 27 minutes and 30 seconds, there will be something a lot more substantive for everyone to Kovic about. Well, I guess we'll just. just have to wait to find out. Thank you, Nathan, and thank you everybody who wrote in with questions. Those were so great. Again, maybe we'll have a chance to get to a few more. I think we covered a lot of bases, as always. A lot of insights got my mind rolling. Why do you do this to us? No more clocks. No more clocks. There really are so many clocks. It is always a clock. It has always been a clock and it

always will be a clock. All right. Well, we'll find out. This has been every single. album. As always, I'm Nora Prince-Iotti. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to Kaya McMolland for producing this episode. Thank you to Taylor Swift for always having a countdown. And thank you to you to you for listening.