Every Single Album - 'Fearless (Taylor's Version)' | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Episode Date: April 13, 2021

Taylor Swift's version of her album 'Fearless' is here and it's everything we could want it to be. Nora and Nathan talk about some highlights from the rerecorded album and compare it to the first version of 'Fearless,' discuss how the reception of these rerecorded songs will impact what Taylor does with her other albums, and name some of their favorite songs from the vault, including "Bye Bye Baby" and "Don't You." Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The ringer's music critic Rob Harvilla curates and explores 60 iconic songs for the 90s that define the decade. Rob is joined by a variety of guests to break it all down as they turn back the clock. Check out 60 songs that explain the 90s exclusively on Spotify. Hello and welcome to every single album, Taylor Swift. I'm Nora Pinciotti. I'm a staff writer at The Ringer. And for the last time, I'm here with Nathan Hubbard to talk about Taylor and specifically fearless Taylor's version, which we've been built. to through this entire pod and we got to hear and live with over the weekend. Nathan,

what did you think? Were you instantly transported back to 2008? How did it feel? It was really crazy. I was, I was in part transported back to 2008. It was funny. I was listening to it with a friend of mine who went to high school at the same time that I did and was listening to fearless, like right when we started freshman year. And he was, he's not like a huge Taylor fan or anything. And he kept saying to me like, go to love story. Go to love story. Go to you belong with me. And I was like, I'm listening to this in order. It's a serious project. You're not going to get me to do that. Sorry. It is. Not everybody did it that way. Well, right. But I was dedicated to, look, if Taylor says start at track one, I'm starting at track one. Yes. But so I was doing it that way. But what was

kind of funny to me and really cool was when we did get to Love Story and actually some of the other songs, he was like totally singing along, remembered everything and was transported too. So that's what it made me think about the most was just this crazy experience of, obviously there's all the all the masters and the business reasons that she's doing this, but the career that she's built being long enough and meaningful enough to even have reason to undergo this project in the first place. It creates this opportunity for everybody like us to be living in the present and the past at the same time. And that is ultimately what I thought was coolest about it was the way that, you know, we talked so much about, okay, is having her do this now at 31 going to diminish any of these songs?

And we'll get into it. There's a couple places where I didn't feel like it was as effective. But on the whole, I felt like you could kind of get both at once out of this because they have the overall feel of the originals. but then they also have some of the benefits of hindsight and perspective, and then also just how much her voice has changed and improved. Yeah, they have more than the overall feel. I mean, they have a near-carbon copy of what some of the original instrumentation was, and we'll get into the details around that.

But can we just talk about the week that led up to this? I mean, she almost killed me. PTSD. It was crazy. There just was so much. It was just one after the other. And then good Lord, coming Thursday, we had every single social media platform

had its own little bit of snippet. And if you didn't spend 10 hours online on Thursday, you missed what was coming on Friday. Yeah. Well, so let's go through it. So Olivia Rodriguez and Cohn-Grae had the white horse snippet. There was something on Snapchat. And you belong with me.

There was Snapchat. There was the GMA clip. Good morning America. It's Taylor. I just wanted to say, first of all, you guys have been so supportive of the Good Morning America since day one of this entire process of me re-recording my music. And I'm so ecstatic that my album, Fearless, Taylor's version, will be out tonight. It's crazy that it's finally here.

and I wanted to give you guys as a thank you an exclusive first glimpse of one of the songs on the album the title track, Fearless. Taylor's version. She was just like red crumbing Tumblr. Can't forget Tumblr.

Can't forget Tumblr. Can you imagine? I know. We couldn't go back to 2008 if Taylor weren't servicing Tumblr in some way shape of form. Thank God she left Reddit off and Parlor didn't seem to get a track. I'm sure they're complaining over on Parlor.

Yeah. That's the big Monday meeting over at Parlor HQ. Why didn't we get Taylor? I really wanted you all over me before the internet got it. What did you think of just that rollout? I thought it was brilliant. I mean, it is the incredible shrinking record label, isn't it? The traditional functions of a label in distribution and

marketing are kind of going away. I mean, she did this through her social media account and not a whole lot else. That's not entirely fair because behind the scenes, you can see that the label was doing a lot of reach out, in particular internationally. But this is about Taylor Swift and she has organized the masses and rallied the entirety of her fandom behind this initiative. She has everyone invested in the effort. You remember in 2014 in that Wall Street Journal article, she wrote about her defense of the album. And she managed to make this not about an individual song, although she created plenty of freakouts about the new tracks. And I can't wait to hear how they landed with you. And are we properly rating them? Are we overrating them? Or we

underrating them? What are they? But she used those snippets and those tracks to create this momentum around an album. And if you just look at the Spotify streams, I mean, day one, she did 50 million streams of Fearless Taylor's version. Day two, she did 31 million streams. For perspective, day one of folklore, 80 million streams, day two, 54 million. When you say Fearless Taylor's version, are you talking about the lead track or the album? The album, the album is a whole.

So tracks from that that we're saying, streamed. So folklore day one, brand new music nobody's ever heard before, huge, oh my God, she just did an album, does 80 million streams. This album did 50 million day one. That's a lot. Evermore was 66 million day one. So she had the internet basically treating this like it was something totally brand new. Those are great numbers for what is, you know, ostensibly a re-release. And at least so far, people are sort of. streaming Taylor's version at a 30 to one ratio versus the old version. Whoa. Wow. Okay. You can kind of see the algorithms changing in real time. I don't know if you went in and searched,

but if you just started to type, you could see on Friday, they weren't always recommending Taylor's version first, but now they're starting to evolve. No, I did that a lot. Yeah. Did you see how it changed? As we were staying up, it was like, okay, I'm still getting, if I put in a white horse, I'm still getting original white horse. Love Story, since that one had been out, you would get Love Story Taylor's version. That's right. That's right. And by now, that's a completely different experience. Right. Yeah, it is. I mean, I'm still getting old Whitehorse. I think it's clear that algorithm is based somewhat on what you've listened to before versus, you know, what is being dictated by the, by the machine. But it sure looks like the machine started to put its thumb on the scale through the course

of the weekend and start to present. Yeah, it's different on different platforms and stuff too. but the big picture. Yeah, Taylor's version is being favored as it should be. And that is a result of part of the campaign that she's waged here. She's put a lot of pressure on not just her fan base, but the industry to walk with her on this journey. Yeah, and so, okay, so there's two parts of that that I think are really interesting. And let's talk about both of them.

The second one is going to be just what it sounds like and whether or not that led it to be a viable alternative that fans could choose to listen to and get kind of the same feel and the same effect. But the first thing, this really became, it became, I mean, again, this is ultimately the result of a business issue. But it became something that felt like supporting a friend and celebrating your past and her past and nostalgia.

and just something that a community of mostly Taylor fans, but also, and this to me drove home why Fearless was the right one to start with, a generation of people who were just knocked over by this album and really identified with it as young people. And that was really cool. Like Friday night was a lot of fun. I don't know that I was so excited about hearing the music and the sound. I just didn't realize that I was going to be spending time, like, cracking jokes about school dances and the situations where these, the original versions of these songs were meaningful,

but then getting to reapply the Taylor's versions of them to those experiences with some of the benefit of perspective and hindsight and growth and age and whatever. and that is because they do sound really similar. Yes. Yes. It's so great that you were able to do that. If you remember when we talked about why this album won album of the year, it was because it captured the voice and feeling, right, of what it meant to be a teenage girl in that moment. And I love that it transported you back there.

I think you're right that part of the reason it worked is because it really does sound the same. So tell me sonically, because I did a little analysis over the weekend, you know, so I can tell you somewhat scientifically and musically how these things look. And no shocker, the answer is they're really, really similar. But how did it feel to you sonically when you hit play? So overall, I think the big takeaway is, and actually you texted me something like this, there is no real reason to listen to the originals for almost all of the songs. there is just nothing that's going to force me to go back because, and I'll get to what the exceptions to that are,

because they do exist, but they're pretty few and far between. Yeah. These will be the versions of these songs that I listen to, and that's not purely an act of, like, I want to support Taylor. They really work. They really, really, really give me the same,

you know, just sort of that same glitzy, polished country vibe. the difference is in the vocal primarily. Yeah, that's the entry point. I mean, it's the vocal. But it's not so different, like she still has the laugh on Hey, Stephen. It's not so different that it changes it in a way that makes you miss the old ones.

All those other girls, well, they're beautiful, but would they write a song for you? So some of the songs, it really helped. And I was actually kind of surprised by the songs that I felt like it helped the most. Because I guess I just don't spend a lot of time thinking about, okay, how could love story or you belong with me get better? But some of those, I guess slightly more general is a way to describe them thematically songs. When you just have that like richer, sort of thicker, deeper, juicier voice delivering them now. Yes.

I was blown away by how good she sounds. Well, it's more than just her voice is the interesting thing that is richer. If you break it into component sine waves and you measure the amplitude to get the full frequency spectrum, there are instruments that are tuned lower. Like the snare hit, just if you press play and you start listening with the song Fearless, the snare drum is tuned lower in the second version. The old one has this peak of like 356 hertz. The earlier version, it drops off at like 181 hertz,

which is like a little below the middle C. But the frequency, the decibel level between like 100 and 300 hertz is higher on the new version, which means there's just more low end. Similarly, just in the first couple seconds of the song, the bass drum approach is different. Instead of, on the first version, there's sort of a single hit or a light second hit.

This one, there's really, full two heavy bass drum hits as they come into the song, which is just a way of rounding out the low end. It gives it this fuller, richer, lower sound, which is exactly what we're getting from Taylor's vocal. Okay, that is so fascinating because there are a couple points. The outro of Breathe and then throughout Tell Me Why. There are a couple of places that I wanted to ask you about. this because I felt like I was hearing higher harmonies just in a couple little spots than I'd heard on the originals. And I couldn't figure out if they were there on the

originals, but just a little bit lower in the mix, or if it was just this little subtle thing that was new. Yeah. But is that maybe because it's just a greater contrast with the low end being thicker and more present there? I think it's both. I mean, one of the writers in the New York Times said, oh, it's missing an organ note on the... Well, actually, the organ is there when you break it down, but it's lower in this mix. Conversely, as you said, there are some harmonies that are brought forward.

I suspect this time because the quality of the vocal performance is stronger. And those are the little things that come through the mix. I mean, what's fun is if you actually break this down, there are some mistakes on the original version. Like, like, right, again, write the intro of, fearless. The fourth snare hit is a mishit. The drummer hit the rim mostly and not the snare. This version is perfection. And that's a function in part of, you know, however many years later,

13 years later, software can track those mistakes, fix those mistakes. I would really love to know if they put any kind of filters or plugins on Taylor's vocal for some of these tracks, because it is uncanny how she matched some of the high-end notes to the original version. But as you said, on songs like, I don't know, you're not sorry, boy, does her voice sound better? It doesn't even sound like she tried to match. On that one, she just said, I'm actually going to make this song better because my voice has a richer set of characteristics than it ever did, and it's going to make this song sing. So I don't know if you remember our first, our first fearless episode. That was my cut.

Yeah, I know. And it's not because I don't like the song. That's why I just brought it up. Holy guacamole, Nathan. Yeah. Just those tiny little elisions on taking you this long. And when she says you're not sorry, her voice sounds so good. And it's taking me this long, baby, but I figured you.

And again, that was my cut on the first fearless episode because we are forced to make a cut. I like that song a lot. This one, though, like I'm obsessed with this version of it. Me too. I think she sounds more angry even than on the first one, which was one of our big questions, right? Is like, if some of these wounds are not as fresh, how does that translate? I was like, I will cause drama in my own life right now so that I can just like channel it to this version of

you're not sorry it blew me away well we don't need any more drama from Nora let's be clear but I have a very drama free existence that song is the example of the difference in her voice when you go back and listen to the original version

she's kind of throat hacking in the beginning which is to say like she's pushing the air up against the back of her throat almost like if you like hack up a right if you're spitting like that's kind of how she was singing and that's a totally natural thing

that relatively young singers will do. On the new version, you can hear it's all her chest and all of the air is not bouncing off the back of her throat. That's why you get some of the high-end nasal sounds early on in some of the early recordings. Now that air is coming right from her chest all the way out through her mouth and it gives it that breathiness and that richness

because you're getting the note directly through her lips as opposed to it sort of flying out in her sinus cavity and coming out the nose. That's sort of the mechanics of it and it just is so different and so much richer. She's just better

and she made the song better just by singing it today than she would have before. Flip side. Let's talk about 15 for a second. Yeah. Because this was a mixed bag to me because there was something

so sort of gut-wrenching about hearing some of those lyrics, like I didn't know who I was supposed to be at 15. Now, considering where she is, where we all are, just the distance of 13 years, there were a couple moments on that song, particularly when she goes to and we both cried. Yeah.

I think on the original, she had to do what you were just talking about. Really push the air out to get up to that. And she doesn't have to do. do that. And I kind of missed it because there's something edgely desperate about the way the original sounds there. And that was one of, like I said, those moments are few and far between, but that was one where I was like, okay, overall, this sounds beautiful. But just on that split second, it's not quite as sharp. 15 is the one for me where on the one hand, it was kind of ridiculous.

for an 18-year-old to be looking back at a 15-year-old and talking about like the wisdom of life that she now knows at 18. It's almost more believable at 31 that she would be looking back on her 15-year-old self and actually have, you know, an understanding and perspective. But I'm with you that that song in particular, you missed some of that desperation in the vocal,

especially on those syllables like E and I, like the air is just sort of flying out, right? And it has that desperate, I'm 15, I'm 18 years old character to it, quality to it, that we're never going to get on this version. On the other hand, overall, it's a better vocal performance. Right, right. It's very smooth.

It just sounds great. I do think that, so some of the other songs that are probably not as like canon as 15, like jump then fall you know like I think my point here songs like 15 those were going to be really hard

and I think she more than passed the test primarily some of these other ones where it's not quite so loaded emotionally and it's not so focused on youth and high school and everything right it just was like whoa I want to listen to this

a billion times like jump and fall is a pretty simple yeah pretty simple song but I was just like who yeah well this sounds awesome and then same with

like come in with the rain or superstar or other side of the door or today was a fairy tale who knew that song was this good you did you love that movie

stop it Valentine's Day were you in that movie I'm annoyed because I set you up for that one but you mentioned Valentine's Day at literally any turn I just don't get it.

I will. But isn't it interesting how these survived the test because in your brain, Nora, is burned the original versions of these songs. And so I feel like you're hearing them and all of the energy and emotion that mattered to 2008 Nora. You still get that in these versions.

And so it feels like you don't miss that as much. And yet, with the benefit of a richer vocal performance, and as we talked about some richer instrumentation, it actually lifts up the quality of some of the songs that maybe we're a skip for you, maybe we're just kind of a meh. I think that that's a stunning part of this project is that we didn't lose the old versions

in listening to these songs as a fan. Yeah, it really, I mean, I don't know, think about new Coca-Cola. Like, these things don't tend to go very well when you're trying to get people to take a replacement of something that they loved and were used to. It hasn't gone well in music before either. Right.

I'm just, I remain boldover by that ultimately. I will give you, I mentioned the thing about 15. Here's the one where it didn't pass the test. You're going to talk to me about forever and always, aren't you? Yeah. And this was, this was a thesis of ours that this might happen on this song.

Because what I love about that original is that she's mad as heck. Right. And she doesn't sound that mad anymore. And it's probably because she's not. But I missed it. Was I out of line? Did I say something way too honest? Made you run and hide like a scared little boy.

I looked until you are a minute. Now I'm not so sure. Yeah. You can't say that it was mailed in, but it just doesn't have the same bite. But let me ask you, did it change the way you feel about the piano version of that song? Okay. So on first listen, yes. Because it just gave me a cleaner palette for it.

And I was loving it. Right. What happened? I think I feel the same about the piano version, ultimately. I like it very much. I just, that original forever and always... Was I out of line? Did I see some...

is one of my way too honest made you running high like a scared little boy I looked into your eyes that I knew you for So sure Is one of my favorites ever

And so I think the first time that I listened to the new piano version I just I thought Yes, this is beautiful She sounds great Oh wow, maybe having it in this Where I'm not as attached to The other one

Gives me an easier avenue To just appreciate it for everything that it is I still found myself thinking a little bit about, okay, do you have to be such good friends with Joe Jonas now if it's going to mean that... You're like, I'm still fighting the war here. I'm still out on the island fighting. Nobody told me war's over.

I'm going to hack Sophie's Instagram and like start some stuff. Yeah. Can we have a little drama? No? All right. Let me ask you this, though. Are there any sonically or musically, Are there any notes or changes that you as a fan noticed through the course of this album? I mean, I noticed, you know, at the 215 mark in just in fearless, like the guitar solo is slightly different. Whoever played the original version stays up on a C. He goes F, F F F F, F, F, D, C, C, B, F, A, F. F, F, F, F, F, D, C, F, F, F, A F. F. F. F. It doesn't make a big difference.

You know, there's little subtle thing. Did you find anything where you were like, wait a minute, that's not right? Yeah. So the first one that I noticed was the melody on the final chorus of other side of the door where she says, stand outside my window. It just stays up. For one more note when the old one went down. And then there's another one.

There's another little tweak when she says Saw You Standing There on the last chorus of Today was a fairy tale That was cool to put those two side by side. I mean, that song just, I think what struck me about that And it is what that tweak kind of enhances Is that that song There's a lot of going up and down In the melody.

And it's not like huge leaps bounds, but there's a lot of just like, can you feel this? Da-da-da-da-da. Like, very back and forth. It's, I think it's, I think she's more confident doing that now. Yes. Yes. Yes. Like, I think that's what it is.

I think that's that, you know, if your voice is not everything that it's going to develop into yet, that's hard. That's a hard thing to do. You lose your place, kind of. Yeah. And that's why you're not sorry shines. Right. The same reason.

It's just, she's just, she can crush that. And it was a stretch 12 years ago. The other thing about you're not sorry, and I think this is what you loved about it originally, is that it is just kind of that like headbanger, anthemic, F-U, juicy ballad thing that she could do. Right. It's a great vehicle for the band,

and I felt like they really leaned into that on this version. Yeah. Like having played, you know, I just felt like there was some, knowledge that had seeped in by osmosis of playing this thing live however many times of like if we just go

hard on this it's going to be incredible yeah and they did overall I thought the band sounded spectacular on this the band did sound spectacular and it's in part because she used a bunch of the musicians from her touring band

which had two effects the first is the band has played these songs more than anybody. And they've tinkered with them. They've had to get up inside them to play them on the road. And so they take great cues, great cues from Taylor, about how to adapt them and in some cases how to absolutely replicate what gets put on the album.

The second thing that's sort of cool about that is they've been out of work for two years now. And it was kind of cool if you think about it that she gave, them stuff to do and gave them work through the quarantine period. So, listen, that was a nice thing to do, but I can't think of anybody better to do it than the people who have just lived inside these songs and thought already, how do I replicate each strike of the string, brush of the drum to take it out on the road? Right. And I think there's also, I mean, they're her touring band. they are part of her whole package to this day. There's something, I think, meaningful about bringing in as much as she can from her past

and elements of her past that carry through to the present to this project because, look, this is a tug of war right over. Yeah. Are you on my team? Who does, well, and also just like, who do these songs belong to? Right. Right. Because there's, there's a legal and a contractual definition to that. And then there's also in people's minds and in people's, this is cheesy, but like, their hearts and whatever, how they respond to that and how they think about that.

And I think the more that she can kind of be like, here's my team, here's everybody who's over here with me. and that includes all the people who you've just like rocked out to sounding awesome up on stage at the tours and have been with me for this long dating back to when the originals were coming out. Like that's that I think is effective. Yeah. I mean, look, we're this far into the podcast. We haven't talked about the new tracks and we've got to talk about the new tracks. But I do want to make this point because you said something at the beginning about this being a business decision. and I don't like the standard critic response

that this is about the money. Her catalog was bought for, call it $300 million. Okay, so if that's the value of the catalog, she's going to do a tour. She broke all North American touring records last time. She made $350 million gross on her tour. I am telling you, sure is Sunday,

the next tour that she does, is going to be over half a billion dollars. With one tour, she's going to make more money than she did, she would have from the entirety of owning her catalog. And so it's not about the money. She can take this band out on the road and make as much money as her catalog is worth for the rest of time, according to these private equity firms that have bought it.

This is now about controlling her art and owning the way in which it gets presented, but not just her art. It's also about redefining the relationship between artist and company going forward. She wants this to not be an ownership model. She wants it to be a licensing model so that companies can make money

in partnership with the artist because they do interesting services like find them and market them and invest in the creation of the, music, but that ultimately the rights to this revert back to the artist, not just for Taylor, but for artists going forward. And that is what is so cool about the fact that this is working. So I'm right there with you 98% of the way. Okay, what's the 2%? I think there's space between saying this is something that ultimately, for the genesis of this project, was a business maneuver. I think

you can say that without saying the only reason for doing this is just a dollar figure. Yeah. I got to say, I think there's something really compelling about, like, I am invested in this project because it is a business maneuver. I think there is something, look, like these songs were powerful because they identified the experience that a lot of young people, especially young women, were having very unapologetically. And that is a group of people who. does not always get taken seriously in all the things that they want to do.

Yes. And there is an element of doing this where she is asserting her power. Absolutely. Which has been accrued based on working her butt off for way more than a decade, two decades, basically, at this point. So to me, like reading, whenever she posts some, you know, statement about, the re-recordings or the sale or whatever, I am like almost as excited to read those. And I, you know, I hate the situation.

I hate that she's unhappy. But like there is something really, really, really satisfying about seeing that person who you've channeled all of that energy through, just be like, you know what? I did this. And I did the work. And I want to own it and I want to control it because I poured my heart and soul into it. And I should be allowed to say that.

So I think she is leading. I think those two things have. No doubt. It is a business move. It is a badass business move. I think it started as a negotiating ploy to basically threaten that she was going to do this in exchange for bringing other parties to the table so that she could get control of those masters back. And I think as you have noted, the more she got into this, it's clear she's having fun. And it's more about showing everybody, including Bob Lefetz, who, God love him, he just can't let it, he cannot give up the ghost. I mean, the song Mean wasn't enough for him.

He's got to write just a, you know, just a bobo-ass post that missed the point of why she's doing this completely. Yes, it started as a business move. It still is a business move. It's badass. But now it is about something bigger, which is what is, to your point, is so fascinating to see her use her power for something that she, I think, genuinely believes is bigger than her.

All of this effort, she could probably. probably get her master's back for, you know, way less effort. But now I think she's committed to it because there's people who doubt that she can do it. And what she just showed us with Fearless Taylor's version is she can do it. And she's going to keep going. So you think she's going to keep going. That was going to be my question to you. This isn't a let's get back to the table thing. This is I want to, we think after hearing this, she wants to see this through. I think it's, I think it is both. I do believe if you are sitting there

in possession, in quotes, of her masters, you own a lot less dollar value of an asset than you did a few days ago. Because everybody can see what, you know, again, it's streaming at a ratio of 30 to 1, and that's probably because people are going back

and doing the comparisons. I bet that ratio only grows. It'll be 50 or 100 or 3. 300 to 1 over the course of the next couple weeks as everybody says, yeah, these are good enough. I'm going to listen to these. I'm invested in Taylor. And by the way, there's some parts of these things that are even better. So this is what I'm listening to going forward. So. Well, and that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because the more that happens, the more algorithmically, people are going to be driven to the new versions. Yeah. And so there's no doubt that the owners of

her masters, again, in quotes, because I think one of the things that she's demonstrating is that you don't own it. If I say you don't own it, you don't own it. And let me show you all the ways in which you don't own it. But the people who are in possession of those masters who get the checks when you stream the old version, you're sitting there going, okay, it's now or never, we got to make this deal if there's a deal to be made. And on the other side of the table, you have Taylor who has all the leverage at this point, who seems personally now invested in continuing this. And so, who knows? She may do both. She may do a deal to get her masters back, but continue this process because it helps her rediscover songs like

you're not sorry and make them better. I'm staying with some friends right now, and there's four of us. I'm the only one who's not a law student. Just the yelling about due diligence as I was trying to explain this situation the other night was just like through the room. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's, look, I don't want to judge what went on behind the scenes. I think there's certainly a there's a Netflix documentary to be made about this whole back and forth exchange. But it is a fascinating case study in where the music industry is going. I mean, remember, her manager is a lovely guy by the name Robert Allen.

Robert Allen is the brother of the drummer from Def Leppard, who lost an arm. So he's famous for being this awesome, badass one-arm drummer. Def Leopard tried to do this. and it only sort of worked. Taylor's benefiting from advances in software, but Taylor's benefiting from a fan base that is fully invested in this project from the beginning. And so the question now is,

is she going to be able to fully redefine the relationship between artists and the companies in the music business going forward? That's really the legacy of this project. Well, and some of the power of that comes from the fact that she comes by her beliefs about artists deserving to own and control their art really honestly, right? Like we've gone through this whole project going back starting in 2006 and how many examples have come up since that time of her being a really strong advocate. for artist rights. This would be, I think the, and this is certainly not to say that if this were the case,

I would think that it was bad or she shouldn't do it, but it would be a different thing. If this weren't something that if you are paying attention, you know Taylor Swift has always cared deeply about, which is the rights of artists to own and control the things that they produce as art and care about and pour their hearts and souls into. Yes. So I think that's important to that as well because the fans who are loving this stuff

and appreciating it and streaming it like crazy, they know that. So they have all of that history with her of knowing how much this means. And that's what's so infuriating about some of the critical pieces like the Left Set's piece, which was like, why is this?

This is just about the money. Well, fuck you, it's not about the money. Like, all we've been asking for is artists who are interested in something more than the money. You can't ask for the return of the children of the 60s. And then when one comes back, you know, trying to lead artists and their power forward, throw darts at that, you know,

just because she has access to the internet or something. Crosby and Dillon sold their damn catalogs. You know, this is, as you said, it's about artist empowerment. And the left sets thing, like, he created an international incident because she can't sing. And now she can sing.

and you're complaining that it doesn't sound the same. Just throw it away. He's preaching to... My problem with that piece in particular is if you're a gadfly for an industry, you're supposed to be... There's legions of up-and-coming people who are reading that,

trying to get into the industry. And it sends the wrong message. It's like fucking nexium or something for life coaching. You're not telling the truth about where the industry is going. The truth is that, unless there is a dramatic shift

in the cost of capital, and the rights that artists retain, it's going to be the same for decades. And so this is a movement to upend and change the industry. To not see that when you are ostensibly the industry expert is terrifying, you know? So that is what it is. I think it's fair to criticize the way some of these songs sound relative to the original. I mean, you talked about forever and always, 15.

That's perfectly valid. And sometimes the fan base isn't awesome at hearing that criticism for what it is. But this is an incredibly shrewd business move, but it is about more than that. And now I have to hear about your feelings on the new tracks. Let's go. Okay, let's go to the vault. Let's go to the vault. Open up the vault. What do we think? So, first of all, like, the vault could be a completely different like EP or something, and it would be able to stand alone.

and be totally fine in that. I will move to the vault. Although actually, there are other places in the Taylorverse that I would rather live in than the vault, but I like the vault very much. Yeah, I mean, first of all, the vault is a brilliant way

to make the album matter, right? She's adding on these little bits so that we pay attention to the whole thing. That said, I was a little nervous when she talked about the vault songs because it's not to say she doesn't write great songs at 15, 16, 17, 18,

I just wasn't sure we were going to get something that had substance. If it got cut from those first couple of albums, does it really matter? And, whoa, there's some stuff on here that matters. Okay. So, yes. And I think there's a couple of songs from the vault that I like all of them. There are a couple of them. We're not changing our song draft, are we? No.

we were, well, no. No. All right. I'm just going to say it. I am, bye, bye baby has ruined my life. It is so good.

I'm upset. It is so, so, so, so good. I can't, I haven't, I don't have enough perspective yet

to like really fully understand where it sits with me on the list. But that is, I've listened to that song. There's no way I've listened to it fewer than 50 times since Friday. It, even though, The piano at the beginning sounds like on the way down by Ryan Cabrero, which made you really

mad when I said it the first time. It's true. It's very angry when you said that. Yeah. It's true. I know. That's why it made me angry. You're all I wanted. You're all I need. It is so good. I just, I love, love, love, love, love, how it builds toward the end. I think the bridge is phenomenal. This song used to be called One Thing. It's so it's so. sort of something that had already existed. Yeah. But with the richness of how she can deliver it now, it's just completely different.

And there was a slight change in the lyrics that could kind of change how you read it, which I think was really interesting. Because one of the things that I love about this song is that you can't really tell who's leaving whom. Hmm. But you kind of think it might be Taylor leaving the other person. Yeah. Which at this point didn't happen a lot in the songs. And I'm not going to lie, I really loved it. You like this POV.

But the lyric change. So the original was all you have is to walk away from the one thing I thought would never leave me. And then the new one is, and all I have is your sympathy because you took me home, but you just couldn't keep me. Yeah. So that's what made me go, oh my God. this is a story about Taylor being you know sort of underwhelmed in a relationship and not being able to stick it through

which I think a lot of people relate to that and it's not something we hear from her a lot and it was certainly not something we were hearing from her a lot in 2008 so this song and then the other thing was just the picture frame is empty on the dresser vacant just like me Like, that is, that's an incredible line. Like, that's the one that just slayed me.

So I love this song. I came away yesterday, watching the end of the Masters, wondering if these Vault songs were a little bit like the sandwiches that they sell at the Masters. Everybody talks endlessly about the sandwiches at the Masters. Well, let me tell you something. It's just fucking egg salad with two pieces of white bread around it. And they cost $1.50. So I was like, are we just drunk on Taylor Swift?

Like, are we just excited about this because the whole thing is awesome and these songs are basically free throw-ins? Or is there real substance here? And bye-bye baby is a real song. You All Over Me is a real song. What do you think about the ones in between? Are they pulled pork sandwiches in Augusta or are they real songs? So to your point, those are real songs because I think your fears, I don't think that they were like, totally realized or anything. Again, I think every song in the vault is a good song that I'm happy

to hear and happy to listen to. I'm not sure that don't you or we were happy does all that much for me. I approve of her decision or whoever's decision to not have those on the original Fearless because I don't think that they're as good. Would they have sucked if Nathan Chapman had produced them? Would they have sucked? I don't know if they would have sucked. But would they have been meh? Would they have been meh if Nathan Chapman had produced them? Did Desner and and and Jack get some credit for, and her, obviously, like,

2021 Taylor can produce this stuff better than 2008, Taylor? I think that's fair. I have to say, I think they're a little meh as is.

Does either one of those songs really blow you away? I'm also, look, that's when I think is really fun. That's the song with Keith Urban. I think there's enough sort of novelty and it's a duet

and going back and forth and that where I'm just like, okay, yeah, this is great. Yeah. And she has some really good she has some really good backing vocals on that's when.

So that one is not really in this category, but I don't know, there's not a ton of like story to grab onto. I like we were happy. We used to walk along the streets on the porch lights for shining bright.

It sounds like, does it sound to you like, don't tell me by Avivine? you help why you guys me Thanks for the ambush maybe I mean now you ruined an hour of my day but I'll give it to you yeah I mean

I don't think any of these are standout let's put it this way it sounds like bye bye baby you would have put on the album and the interesting question is would you have cut something in service of bye bye baby? Oh God I'm so on

I knew you were going to ask me that of course I almost didn't say that because I was like then he's going to force me to cut something else No, I just, like, what would you replace or do you think it should have been on there

with any of the others, including, by the way, you all over me, which I really liked, should they have replaced anything that ended up making the album? Well, geez. I'm a little worried. This is like, this is sort of reasoncy bias.

Right. Right now. Right now. Oh, boy. I would not be unopposed to taking, you all over me, Mr. Perfectly Fine, and Bye Bye Baby,

and swapping them at minimum with superstar come in with the rain. Okay, so it's the extended platinum version stuff. Other side of the door. Ooh.

There are a lot of people who seem to be pretty fired up about this version of other side of the door. In some of the song drafts. Oh, it's so good. Okay. it's no it's so so good because this was one where i in my notes it was like the band is absolutely

crushing it here and then where she can do that all scream out the window that she had to push for in the original the fact that she doesn't have to like this is one where it's like there is no downside to having a stronger more mature voice delivering this song it is all upside and would you replace the Taylor's version of love story with the Elvira remix? Oh, stop. Stop! I wish it wasn't last on the album. I really just, I wish that the last song was Bye Bye Baby for all kinds of reasons.

In the same way that debut ended with our song, you know, her singing, play it again. I sort of love the Bye Bye Baby is the last thing. Is it? I think it is. Well, if you, in the way that they list the tracks, you sort of cluster the tracks. Love Story always gets the last mention is number 27. Okay, but if you're on, like, if you go on to Spotify. Yes, that's fair.

And you go into Fairless Taylor's version. It ends with Bye, By, By Baby. You're right. You're right. You're right. The one reason that I... The one reason that I couldn't actually do that swap is because of how good other side of the door Taylor's version is. And also, because the line, after everything in that little black dress...

After everything is so cool now Because it's like how many times Is that stupid dress come up in all the songs Over all of these years? That dress needs to be in the Taylor Swift Museum Whenever it gets built. I hope that dress has been to the dry cleaners. Yeah, yeah, I do too.

So are we, is the fan base overrating the vault songs? Did we just get a little drunk on them? Or was there reason for excitement from your perspective. Slightly overrated? Well, I don't even know if it's like, I'm not sure how, I'm more sure of how excited about them people are

than how exactly they are rating them. If they are rating them as like all-time Taylor songs, yes, I think, at least in the cases of we were happy and don't you. If they show up in the song drafts that people are tweeting at us, we got some issues, maybe. People's song drafts are so good. I know. Everyone's great at drafting. We have a lot of

excellent, excellent Taylor General Managers. I could have used some of those people when we did our draft, to be honest. Well, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that happened to you. You brought it on yourself. Well, New Romantics is right here. Do you want to say hi? Can we, do you want to say hi to new romantics? No, sorry. Can we not? You can't. Can we not fight right now? Okay, okay. We're trying to have a nice podcast about Fearless Taylor's version and you keep twisting the the other thing is that parts of the melody of both those songs sound a little bit like you belong with me I agree I agree

so it made me wonder if that was just like really in her ear and she was kind of coming up with different versions of it and then she hit you belong with me and it was like oh well this is undeniable obviously this is the answer and then that goes a great point that. It's a great point. Through our journey, we found some songs that got left on the cutting room floor or even, you know, you could argue, state of grace and higher ground are examples of there, there are some examples of songs where she repurposes some stuff where she was working through ideas. I mean, we saw that in, uh, casually cruel. Yes. And Mr. Perfectly Fine,

to all too well. Exactly. And, and so I don't think. think you're wrong to have that judgment about those songs being rough drafts of what ultimately became even greater. Right. And that's actually a cool window into the process. So again, I'm glad that we have them to listen to and to analyze and think about and just as historical artifacts in a weird way. Yeah. Yeah. She didn't have the iPhone then. So it's almost like she's showing what what she was doing before she started making those voice memos. I'm just not sure that when it was good baby, it was good baby, is the best lyric of Taylor's career. Yeah, we can be that. She knows that. It's okay. Right. And it's like, okay, of course this boy's daddy has a farm.

Yeah. Christ. Yeah, but I'm glad we got to see it. I actually like that song. I don't know. I'm just, I think it's funny. I think it's a funny little trip in the way back machine, even though it doesn't really sound in the production like what I bet it would have sounded like if it had wound up on O.G. Fairless. Yeah. In the aggregate, though, these things do their job and they did their job, which was to get the core fan base really excited about what felt like a new release and to treat this as something that was new.

I fascinated to see how many spins these songs get versus people just comparing Taylor's version versus the old version. and it will be really interesting to see how these songs themselves endure, but they serve their purpose well, which was to, I mean, six songs is half an album for normal people who don't put out 18 song albums, right? This is basically half of a new album. So on Friday, I went to bed at 4.30 in the morning.

Because you're a maniac. Because I couldn't stop listening to this stupid thing. Well, I know. We were texting and finally I was getting so tired. I was like, what is going on? Yeah, and you're three hours behind you. I'm like, what is she doing? Yeah, my friend tapped out at like 2.30 and was like, are you still?

And I was like, yeah, go to bed. Like, God, she's listening to don't you for the 50th time. Don't you get tired? That's when you go to bed. I don't need caffeine. I need Taylor. But what I was doing, the reason that it took that long was, first of all, because 26 or 27.

songs, depending on if you acknowledge the remix, is a lot of songs. Although I did not listen to the remix. I think to date, I've listened to that love story remix twice. I think that's it. You're not listening much. It's okay. But I was listening to the vault songs a few times through. So the first time that I listened, I went purely top to bottom, but then I was living in

the vault. And then at a certain point, I was like, wait, I want to go back to the top. I want to hear this whole thing again. And so at least for me, and you could say, obviously, I'm sort of an invested listener here, but at the same time, we have been living and breathing this stuff

for like how long now, I don't know. Yeah. I was still redirected back to the top of the album after spending some time in the vault because it just made me, like, want to keep living in that world. So in that way, it was effective.

It's a bit like the clean lyrics. It was months and months of back and forth. And we finally got here and I enjoyed the vault songs, but it was really interesting to go top to bottom and compare new versus old, both just without any software sonically analyzing waveforms and just living in it and sitting in it. And like you said, having that reaction to, wait, the Hey, Stephen laugh, it's a little sharper, isn't it, this time around?

I didn't expect sharper because the vocal mannerisms on forever and always aren't quite as sharp, are they? And just how she participated in recreating the emotional journey was fascinating to do in a non-scientific way. I'm grateful we had the opportunity. Nathan, I'm not letting you out of here before you tell me. So my guess is that you all over me is your favorite vault song. Am I right in that? I am on the fence between that and bye-bye baby. You have pulled me along this weekend into spending a lot of time with that one. I really think, I do think bye-bye baby is probably my favorite. That makes me very happy. Okay. Cool. You win again, Nora. I'm just happy when people like this. I mean, I'm happy when people just like a song in general, but I just want it to get its roses because I am obsessed with it.

Yeah. When you really started falling down the whole. hole on that one. I spent more time with that and I was like, yep, I get it. I totally get it. Of the vault songs, the ones that I will enjoy playing back are the three that we talked about, which is Bye Bye Baby. And Mr. Perfectly Fine, I enjoy it. I enjoy it. I like we were happy. I probably won't hear That's When or Don't You much unless it's sort of in the line. And Bye Bye Baby will make it to playlist for me for sure. Okay. It's time. I don't want...

Look, she's going to put out another album on Thursday, and it's going to completely screw. She's going to put out an album when you are preparing for the NFL draft, and you're going to have to stay up all night, not because you want to, like you did this weekend on Friday, but because you have to because we're going to be back. Okay. Yeah. So it's not time for us to say goodbye.

It's just time for us to say see you later, and knowing Taylor, won't take that long. But what do you think just as we wrap this project up, what are your final thoughts, takeaways? What's going through your mind? I can't wait to see what she does next. She has orchestrated this intricate ballet with many, many moving pieces, feels almost like the blue angels, flying very fast and very close to one another. And one little slip-up in millimeter of poor execution could have blown a lot of things up. And she has executed this whole thing unbelievably flawlessly from a business perspective

and from a musical perspective. And now, if we are to believe the most recent long-form interview that she did, she doesn't really have a plan for where to go from here. And I like that. I like spontaneous Taylor. Spontaneous Taylor gave us folklore and evermore. Spontaneous Taylor, you know, evolved from I'm doing this as a negotiating tool to, holy crap, this is super fun. And you're going to rediscover some songs, Nora, that are even better than they were 13 years ago. So I'm great with Taylor sitting with no plan and taking things as they come. I can't wait to see the impact that she has from here on some of these artists who are coming up. It was not an accident that Conan Gray and Olivia Rodriguez were making TikToks with her new songs. Those are two artists who for sure have sat in the same way that you

have with these albums on headphones, on repeat, deep into the early morning hours. And you can't help but be impacted by that as you create your own art. So for me, it is, look, we started on this project and we got a lot of initial commentary like, oh, Taylor Swift is not worthy of such a deep dive. And the point is she absolutely is. Her music, her celebrity, and her business are fascinating case study. And now that she really is at the peak of her power, particularly from an industry perspective, but also musically, I just can't wait to see what's next. How about you? I can't either. I guess I'm just, and I had to look myself in the mirror this morning and be like, don't cry on the podcast, don't cry on the podcast. No crying on the podcast. No crying on the podcast. It's fine. I'm good.

She's absolutely every bit 100 million percent worthy of this kind of discussion. And really is one of a small handful of people that I think it would be appropriate to start something like this with. And there's fascinating material and a lot of material for us to pour over. But I guess what I've wound up thinking about a lot, and I had a similar feeling listening to Fearless Taylor's version, is that ultimately the reason that we're doing this is because we both really love something. and have loved it for a long time and gotten a lot out of it. And it's brought the two of us who don't even know each other,

have never met each other in person. Yeah, that's a better way to say. Together to do this. Yeah, that's true. I know all your favorite songs now. But it also brought a lot of other people into the fold too pretty seamlessly because they love it too. And to have something great,

rounded in that has just been the coolest thing because it gives all of us, like the people that we're talking to on Twitter who are drunk DMing you or whatever, it gives us this common ground. And it's been really, really, really wonderful. I'm really grateful to have been able to be a part of it. and in a small sliver of a way, I think we've gotten to have that, which is a microcosmic version of what three recordings are doing

because it's creating a shared space that people are really, really happy to be a part of. So I don't mean to get too cheesy, but this has just been really fun. Nora, I had a marvelous time ruining everything with you. This has been every single album. Taylor Swift. For Nathan Hubbard, I'm Nora Pinciotti. Thanks again for listening.