Every Single Album - 'Forever Is a Feeling' | Every Single Album: Lucy Dacus

Episode Date: April 3, 2025

Nora and Nathan break down Lucy Dacus's fourth album, 'Forever Is a Feeling.' They discuss how the fame of boygenius affected the rollout of and expectations for this record (1:00), fellow boygenius member Julien Baker's influence on these songs (36:21), and the mix of grunge and classical elements that is present throughout (42:20). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe show. That's right. I'm back to have the same in-depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're going to talk about the games. Yeah, the games, the X's and O's, the drama, the trades, the playoffs are coming up. And now you get to see every episode in full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're going to love. So make sure you follow and subscribe to the brand new Zach Lowe show.

on Spotify or wherever you watch or listen to your podcast. Let's go. Hello and welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Prenciotti and I am joined, as always, by Nathan Hubbard to talk about Lucy Degas and her new album Forever's Feeling, which we've talked about leading up to the release in terms of the singles a little bit, but we are going to dive in in full today. Before that, Nathan, I did want to acknowledge that last week, we got the first two hints at what's to come via an artist that we've talked about anticipating a lot over the last several months, who is Miley Cyrus, who released the first two tracks that will be on her album, Something Beautiful, that is due out May 30th.

Now, the first track there is a prelude. It's very cinematic. Everything here comes with visuals. This has been described as a visual album. And there's really a lot to unpack with Miley. There's always been a lot to unpack with Miley. You have said time and time again that Miley is one to watch. And I wanted to share with everybody that we're going to dive in. We're going to really dive into the Miley catalog in the lead up to this record. We're going to give it the full every single album treatment. We're going to go through the discography. We're going to start with Hannah Montana. we will do Miley Cyrus and her dead pets. That's the only reason I said yes to this.

And if Kaya doesn't change the spelling on the calendar to spell pets, P-E-T-Z, I'm out. We will do that. All of that will happen. And then we're going to get you really prepped up to the release of something beautiful, which might be great. It might be weird. I honestly don't know. but I'm super excited to dive into Miley.

Nathan, how are you feeling? It's really about the dead pets for me, but beyond that, yeah, we have a big visual album coming, like a giant operatic visual thing that is going to be somewhere between mediums, which to me is the most interesting thing to come at the end of this pop girl phase here

for Miley to re-inject herself into culture and not just putting out another album that's going to go compete with the 25 that we've talked about on this record. This is something that is going to bend and blur the actual mediums of art in a way that Miley is uniquely suited to do because she is of both music and film. So it's a very ambitious project. We're already seeing some stuff that makes you go, wow that makes you go, huh? That makes you go, what the literal fuck? But I think this is a really interesting and important artist who, I mean, there are nine

Miley albums that we're going to talk about between now and June. So there's a long discography and it's really as much an assessment and analysis of music as it is an assessment and analysis of culture, because she is one of those child stars that has hung in there. She's gone through the roller coaster ride. She's crossed over from film to music and back, and here she comes, blending all of her experiences still at the ripe young age in her early 30s as an artist who can still be current and make an impact.

So I'm excited for the series. The thing that you always say about Miley is, you know, she's watching, she's waiting, she's biding her time, she's going to pick the right moment, and she's going to have a plan for how she reinserts herself when she does. And that has so much to do with the trajectory of an artist, the trajectory of a career, and how someone really special chooses to chart that course. And so I'm really excited to go back to the beginning and revisit everything because

Miley is lots of things, but she is never boring. And we haven't done an artist series in a while. So I think it'll be really fun. I'm really excited for it. Look out. Pablo the blowfish. I'm coming for you, baby. Blowfish.

I can't wait. What other podcast is discussing in granular detail, Pablo the Blowfish? I've been waiting for years to talk about Pablo the Blowfish with you. You know this. It's just been... It's really true. It's been a long time coming.

Woo, I can't wait. All right. Until then, it's time to talk about Lucy Degas. Forever is a Feeling came out last week. This is on the heels of... several singles that we got to talk about on the pod. Also, some reveals in profiles and articles about lots of profiles about a romance that has been rumored. The worst kept secret in the world. The worst kept secret in Boy Genius. Why are we pretending that

nobody knew this? I'm not pretending that nobody knew. I'm pretending that it hadn't, I'm not pretending. I'm not pretending anything. I'm acknowledging. that it had not been, they had not DTR'd. They had not hard launched. Juicy hard launched with an album. I mean, did you go to a concert? Fair. Fair, Nathan.

Fair. But that's the soft launch. And this, for Julian Baker and Lucy Davis, is the hard launch. It looked like a very hard launch. There are varying degrees of soft launches and hard launches. Yeah. But just like acknowledge for me that a, a New Yorker profile, a People magazine feature, and a full-length album that is basically about

your love qualifies as a hard launch. It does. It does. And it's out there. Not that we didn't know, but it comes at a really interesting moment. I wasn't sure what we were getting with this Lucy Dacus album. And in particular, you know, we're still early on. We're not even a weekend. And so watching how the streaming counts happen, the chart position that it takes, the enduring stream counts will be interesting to see because she comes from a group that felt like it was very much the nexus of culture and boy genius, didn't it?

And Boy Genius, in part, there was some question as to how much of that was Phoebe Bridgers-driven, who was coming off of Ponnisher, a massive breakthrough album where she on her own was playing large venues. And then in a, let's just say not a common occurrence where an artist sets aside their ego and joins in with others and brings them along, goes into the supergroup, goes and does that. And now coming out of it, this is really the first bit of music that we've had since they were at the zeitgeist and when they were playing arenas and they were front

and center at Coachella. And so the question that is so interesting, to me from here is a little bit like the Taylor family tree. Like how strong is the boy genius family tree? And in particular, the one who wasn't the star, the two who weren't the huge stars coming into it. And Phoebe was a star. And Lucy even sings about that on this album. How will this hold up? How will it be received? The critical press loves this artist and the idea of Lucy, for sure. I'm interested to see how the fan base sits with this music. Can you give me your first take and your first impression of this album? My first impression of this album is in a lane that's a little bit separate from the questions of audience and scale and what constitute success that I

think are really important questions that we should talk about here. My first, the first way that I received this album. And perhaps that's because we're coming a week on the heels of talking about another album that was a couple collaboration in a way and told the story or was purported to tell the story of a romance and ended up hitting, leaving me a little cold. My first impression was that this album feels loving to me. And I think it's a really interesting example of how people choose to enter the public, even if a lot of people know already,

but announce an entry into the public conversation as a romantic pair and then couple that with work. I really, I felt love on this album and it is not perfect. A little bit of horniness too. Absolutely. I don't think it's a perfect album. I'll talk to you about my criticisms later on. But the first level way that it hit me was, wow, I'm really happy for them because

it seems like if this is the story of this relationship, I just, I'm thrilled to have that little insight into it because the lyrics just are really touching and kind of staggeringly romantic and it feels incredibly intimate. So that's the first level way at which I received. Yeah. I just lots of snaps to echo it's a very well a lyrically written album, isn't it? She's very eloquent. She's clever. She's intelligent. I love the way that she strings words together. If you're doing the, you know when you're in a reservation app and they ask you to rate the place where you just had dinner

and it's food, ambiance, no, you're skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip. But if you ever, if you ever have an awesome experience and you really want to make sure that it's reflected, there's all the different categories where you can do five stars in one category, four stars in another. The five stars, pound the button, pound the button, pound the button, is the lyrical writing on this album. Right.

And frankly, if I were Julian Baker, who I'm sure had some insights, we know had some insights into what was on this. The little one has to be feeling very secure. Very secure in the relationship, but I would feel insecure as an artist. I would be going, oh, God, I got to come up with some really good writing

about my partner. Like, fuck. Yeah, it's like when you get a great letter from somebody, you're like, oh, thanks. God, and then you're trying to figure it's like, hello, dear so-and-so. It's how I imagine the Taylor Swift, Travis Kelsey original text threads would read if we had them today. Huge blocks of blue and then like a little snippet of white.

I do think the stuff that you brought up, though, in terms of the scale is something I want to talk about here. Because I don't, it's hard for me to assess how successful this is or not because I don't quite feel like I can tell what constitutes success. This is, you see it brought up in most of the reviews. This is the first, quote-unquote, major label release for Lucy Degas.

Whatever the fuck that means in 2025. Whatever the fuck that means in 2025. And particularly whatever the fuck that means for an artist who were talking about, as you alluded to, one, because we think she's super talented, but two, because the spectrum of boy genius

kind of puts Lucy Dacus in the, at least tangential to the pop girl universe. Yeah. When really this is kind of an indie rock folk almost adjacent artist. Yeah.

You wouldn't really call a pop star. No. Her most stream song is Night Shift. It's got 123 some odd million streams on Spotify. You got an That's not a lot. Right.

So do you think this record, which, you know, she's going to tour, I believe in New York, she's playing at Radio City Musical. I'm sure that will sell well. She's going to perform it in similar size venues, I imagine, in other places. Do you think that that is the goal here? because I think if it is, then this album at least sounds like it should be successful if that's the bar. I do find myself a little confused in the sense that we saw two very glossy music videos for singles here. Right.

There is the major label conversation. So at one point, I found myself wondering, is she going for something noticeably bigger and broader than has ever been a part of the, Lucy Dacus solo project in the past. I find myself feeling like the answer to that is no. And as long as it's no, I think this is successful in doing what she wants to be doing. But I'm wondering if you think that there is a higher aim.

I think there is a higher aim. Look, she's going to play larger venues. She's going to show up in the top billing on a few festivals this summer, I suspect. she's going for it. And I think you've aptly pointed out, not what the tension is, but there's a little bit of a discrepancy between, like, this is an indie folk quasi-indy rock artist

who is an excellent writer who was part of this large phenomenon that was Boy Genius. And if the idea was, we are now going to propel her to, I don't know, Cheryl Crow level that maybe that's the wrong analogy

but you know into the upper echelon of quote unquote pop girls that's not happening with this record it's not and I think when you look at the press that's been around this she is a darling because she's an excellent writer and of the boy genius movement

but it really falls into two camps there's some people who are saying you know Slate said forever is a feeling is one part queer rumors you know, another part, gay, let's get it on. I don't feel that way. I feel like the writing and the sentiment that's expressed in this is really strong. And I think the music for the most part doesn't match it.

And I think it is a really strong album that will delight the core. But if the purpose to your question was to broaden the reach and appeal of Lucy and to put her into a different sort of lane and different conversation, I don't think this is the album that's going to do it. It doesn't make it a bad record. It's a really enjoyable album, and I think there's some songs on here that are keepers, and I do think the journey from start to finish is interesting. But there isn't, from a musical and harmony or melody perspective, I agree with some of the criticism that says almost in the sweetness of the message of this album. and the delicate and the care and the intimacy of it,

there is something not tepid but subdued about the composition part of these songs to me. And that just means I thought perhaps we were going to get a Lucy Dacus breakout song. And I think we have a nice collection of love songs. She occasionally flashes some of that distortion, and rock that you get on night shift or a little bit of the melodic,

you know, what I think is brilliance from hot and heavy. But it's mostly, it feels like her strumming a guitar on a park bench or in a hotel room washing Julian. And that's cool and interesting in part of the lore. But it isn't an album that's going to break her out or even probably, I don't think, expand her to full, fulfill that boy genius fan base. And I'm interested

in who wanted that the most. Probably the old man in the corner that she writes about. Well, right, I was just going to say there are lyrics about old men and suits and rooms sharing their opinions.

I was in a boardrooms full of old men guessing what the kids are getting into. I don't know that she cares. Because I don't feel like, look, this is an incredibly personal record. Yeah. To me, I feel like I know where Lucy Degas stands in the moment in which she's creating

this. And it doesn't ring out as a person who is really preoccupied with, man, how many aren't, how many aren't can I get myself in on tour? And how many nights in a row can I sell out a crowd in Denver? And multiple times through this album, she puts distance between herself and stardom. There's that time where their legs are tangled up at the writs. There's a hotel and they're conscious of the fact that they're sort of spending somebody else's money. It feels like almost like they're cheating is the way she doesn't use those words, but that's sort of the vibe that she gives. There's, you know, Moldigliani about Phoebe. You make me homesick for places of how do you do that? Where

She is, it's a friendly love song for Phoebe, but, you know, she is putting Phoebe in that upper echelon and talking about Phoebe as the star and saying, you'll never be famous to me, but she's famous. And, and there's a, there's a clear line of delineation between her status in front of a crowd and even the way that she performs and what Phoebe is, right? So she sort of, it doesn't have that level of ambition. And I think the only reason that, you or I would sit here and criticize that is that the profiles suggested perhaps we were getting that. Well, and it's not all, it's not all intention, even the things that are kind of inconsistent. Yeah. Because I think, for instance, some of the most personality driven in a way that has an intensity and a ferociousness that is missing in some of the music comes through in the music videos. Both of the music videos, which to me, were the main things that made me go,

huh, is she like gunning for something that I didn't necessarily think that Lucy Dagus would ever really be gunning for here? And now I think the answer's no, but the music videos were what made me start to wonder that. I think both of those concepts are really smart and fun,

and they give people a lot to talk about and dig into, and they're visually stimulating. Yeah. And I think that there's a certain type of that energy that I actually think probably would have served to the benefit of this album as a whole if there had been a way to translate that into music. So I'm not even necessarily saying like, oh, to the extent that there are things that didn't

work for me here, they come out of the tension of dudes in a boardroom saying, we need a hit, we need a hit, we need a hit. And Lucy Dacus saying, I am in love with Julian Baker and this is my vehicle to process my feelings. It just, there is this sort of mix that leaves you wondering, but doesn't always fully capture, I think, what's amazing about this album, but also what is a little bit underwhelming about it. Yeah.

There are great vignettes through the course of this whole thing. I mean, it starts for me on Big Deal. I can see that moment of awkward conversation amongst the daffodils. Flicking embers in the daffodils. You didn't plan to tell me how you feel. Where Julian's telling her about her feelings and sort of crushing out the cigarette. Like you can, she paints so well with that,

the old men in the room, right? Yeah. I see her, and some of this is maybe I watched her bring her camera to a Julian show a few months ago and just sort of photograph it and slide in amongst the crowd and watch it happen. And so she does a lot of these, to me, feel like images from her camera, right? As she sort of observed her life, and she's sharing a little bit of a photo album with us.

And so in that regard, it all works for me, but I do think about these as I get the little vignettes and the images more than like a comprehensive full start to finish film. I'm left with a lot of questions about the relationship, actually, because she talks about her own feelings, but it's impossible not to then want to get into the page six, you know, do more of it all. Like, hey, so when y'all were ripping your shirts open on stage and making out with each other,

was that before or after you wrote Big Deal or the images that you're giving us in Big Deal? And like, how did it actually happen? Did you all come together? and certainly that a lot of that actually goes unanswered and that's okay because that's not the point of this album. The point in this album is six layers deeper than that, which is what does it actually feel like to be in love with someone and to be contemplating forever as a feeling? Yeah, see, my brain doesn't go to page six, although it often goes to page six, so no shade there.

My brain goes to, when are we hearing from Julian? Julian, drop the album, let's go. Yeah, I'm not sure this is a tennis match, though. Like, I view Julian as the absolute, people call her the little one. She is the little one, but she's a wild one too. And she's kind of like, fuck. Like, I'm not even sure, I'm not even sure she feels like the ball is in her court. I know that's why I want to hear the answer.

That's why I want to see who's on the other side of the net in the tennis match analogy. I mean, but I take your point that I may never will, but I can still want to. Yeah. But I think Lucy's, Lucy's articulation of how Julian respond to this was like, it was like without hesitation. She was like, tell him. Put it out there. Like, Julian Baker gives zero fucks.

It's what's so fun about her. Yeah. I do think they're both so cool and I wish I were friends with them. Yeah, that's exactly right. And it's that sort of rare insight into the evolution of a friendship into a love affair.

And that's really what this album is. That's all it's supposed to be. And if you have expectations that are more than that, you'll be disappointed. If you appreciate it for what it is, I think it's a really, welcome and warm, easy listen.

One more point slash question on the scale of it all. I had down bull's eye, which is the song with Hozier as the only non-single that's notably outperforming anything else on streaming. And I am mostly chalking that up

to the presence of a featured artist, someone who does very well on streaming, and the ability to pull in another fan base. But do you think, but I like that song. I think that's, that's a strong song in this collection. Do you think that song has any potential to elevate a little bit above the rest of this, or is there another song that you would point to for that? I, if it were me, I'd go with Most Wanted Man. Because Julian's singing on it. it. And it's a little bit more of a rocker. And that's just Nathan's, nobody asked you, A&R hat on. I think Bullseye is fine. I'm not sure I would want her singing with another person. I'm speaking like label-wise, the old men in the room on. No, do it. Yeah, but I don't think I would want her paired with somebody else as a feature unless it was Julian.

and that's what this album's really about. So I think Most Wanted Man is incredibly interesting, and that's the one that I would go to. We'll see if Bullseye breaks out. I mean, look, there's a lot of interest in Modigliani in the Phoebe song, too. For sure. For sure.

And for good reason. I really like that song a ton, and I actually, it is the most insightful moment of the record when she's talking about Phoebe. And it just stirs up all kinds of questions for me, right? you don't like she said even if it doesn't fit you'll wear it because if it's what you want you're going to get it even if it doesn't fit you'll wear it because if it's what you want

you're going to get it and just insight into this dominant superstar like we don't think about phoebe as being that ambitious and driven and willing to um to try on multiple clothes and in this case mannerisms and verbal ways of speech that it's almost an accusation. It's a little bit what you hear people throw darts at Taylor for. So I found that, I found that really, really fascinating. And look, Phoebe, Phoebe Bridgers, if her next album is remotely close to her last one, she will be playing stadiums if she wants. That's how big this artist is. And I think the, because, of COVID, the last album's cycle was dragged on a bit. And if you were at all paying attention, you kind of got tired of the background imagery that she'd play on Scott Street or whatever,

you know, at the shows. And you understand, like she, she only slightly overstayed her welcome, which is not what most artists do. They massively overstay their welcome. Taylor always leaves right in the moment. Phoebe, you know, maybe only slightly overstayed her welcome. And I think that's why you've seen her disappear post-boy genius. But Phoebe really has a chance to be massive. And this is, we just don't know her that well. From the outside, we know she's maybe doing a movie with Robert Pattinson. We know she's definitely dating Bo Burnham. And there was that cool moment where she was encoring, you know, with the song from inside. And then suddenly they were dating and all of the, you know, all of the crazy lore about Paul Mescal. And like, there's a lot of that sort of, again,

gossipy page 60 stuff, but we haven't had that inside view of her. And this song, again, just does this, you feel like you're in the dressing room or something. It's wonderful. You know what I made me think of was, and sorry, we're both putting a dollar in the Taylor Swift jar. But the first time that I went to the Erez tour,

Phoebe was opening and she did nothing new. And I remember feeling like nothing new was, for me, if not the emotional high point of my experience at that show, one of the top two or three peaks that I would choose. And that's a great song. But it was, she has this really, I think, under-noticed star power. Yeah.

Where you can't really look away from her. No. And that's a pretty crazy thing to say. about someone I experienced standing next to Taylor Swift. Yeah. And then imagine what it's like to be in a band with her. There are stars in this world across all of culture who in person radiate. And I've seen Phoebe in person a few times.

The lasting memory for me is going to be seeing Boy Genius at the Bowl on Halloween when she was absolutely glowing. And she came out. there's a little stage that comes out around what used to be the fountain at the Hollywood Bowl. And it's not quite like a catwalk, but it's a little sort of semicircle stage that comes out into the crowd. And she walked across that thing singing, and she just was glowing. There just was no denying that she was a star. And there's something about the skin tone against the hair tone, except that she changes those things all the times.

there's something about the costumes and the I don't give a fuck attitude and just like she's somewhere between like totally badass and as gentle and fragile as there could be. And then she has, you know, she has a very low speaking voice. And then she steps up to the microphone and it is as if the voice of God is singing to you. And when you layer that in with just her recent work of songwriting being just mastery, she's a star. And I love that this song acknowledges that in the sense that it is about the perspective of someone who knows her as a human being and doesn't see the superstar. But then at the same time, you know, I love those lyrics about You Make Me Homestick for Places I've Never Been Before. Yeah.

It kind of still encapsulates that how do you feel so special? How are you just radiating an energy that captivates even someone who knows who this person is when they're not on, when they're not made up for a show, when they're not performing? And I think that's really special. I also think, look, Boy Genius is a great band and they know how to perform together. And I think the moments on this album where multiple of them come together and do that are pretty, you know, consistently some of the best. I mean, when you brought up Most Wanted Man and Modigliani, I think we were talking about what people might sort of latch

onto in terms of what might constitute something closer to a hit. But those are my two best songs on the album. Those are my two favorites. I'm with you. I really like ankles. Yeah. There's some real part of the band by 1975 in that song. What if we don't touch? She was part of the Air Force. I was part of the band.

I always used to burst into my hand. But I just love it is a very sexy song. Totally. And I think best guess is a good one too. Like I think the more that it feels simple at first and it doesn't melodically just like have that moment. But it's a good groove. And so those four for me rounded out, but I'm with you.

I think Most Wanted Man and Modigliani are the two most interesting and probably for me the two best songs. I think, I mean, you tell me what you think is going to be the biggest song that comes out of this. I might be surprised if it's not ankles in the end, but at the moment, maybe it's going to be best guess. What do you think? I guess if of those two... What's your best guess? of those two, I do think there's something about best guess where that little phrase where it's,

if I were a gambling man and I am, that is the single bit of melody that is the most like stuck in my brain having listened to this a bunch of times over the weekend. It's annoying that we agree on this. Yeah, but maybe that says something. I think it does. And I think it's,

it is exactly that part of the song that is the most hooky of the whole album. And I do think that the concept of that song, too, like this acknowledgement of life kind of is a matter of chance more so than a matter of fate and this incredibly loving tribute to a partnership that is almost like the opposite of saying your soulmates with someone. It's like I'm not, no one can be sure, but we're doing this. I do think that there's something really beautiful about that. I think there's something really smart about that. I think there's that type of, that type of wisdom is what a lot of people come to Boy Genius for or Lucy or any of the boys. And I think there's a lot of people who probably will get what they want from this out of that song in particular.

So that's where I would go. Can we talk about Most Wanted Man a little bit more? Yeah, tell me. strikingly intimate. I also think to the point about, you know, when Julian shows up, when Phoebe shows up, those are strong moments. Lucy and Julian, I think,

sound really, really, really wonderful harmonizing together. Turns out bandmates know how to sing together. Yeah. You heard it here first. But when you brought up you said the name Cheryl Crow earlier, and that was in terms of, okay, what sort of modes of superstardom are available to someone who's not going the duelieper route, say, of being a pop star. And I think you're right that that's not necessarily where Lucy Dacus is going in terms of audiences

and in terms of who she's trying to appeal to. But there's a little bit of that kind of power pop groove that comes in. in Most Wanted Man, and I think that's cool, too. I don't think it'll be as big as Best Guest just because the music video treatment and all of that. But I think if I had to choose one favorite song, it would be Most Wanted Man. Well, I think it's hard to argue with.

I mean, look, they do, there is this, like, mutual admiration for one another that is a genuine part of this band. that that Hollywood Bowl show where they encored and they did this

just a few times where they each would sing they'd do an encore of three songs and one of them would sing the others song so that Hollywood Bull

song I think I think Lucy sang Good News which is a Julian Baker song I think Julian sang motion sickness Again nobody knew

this is a couple with a little with a little bit of Lucy, and then Phoebe sang Night Shift. And it is the blending of their vocals that works in a lot of interesting ways. But to your point, there is just a little subtle

underneath the surface rock part of what all three of them do. But in particular, I think it's native to Lucy. And a lot of her best songs have a little bit underneath the surface of that breakout, distortion. Maybe she's a little bit more of a rocker than her sort of fairly wholesome, sweet voice indicates. And we do get that across this record in a couple of different places. We get it on

talk, which is kind of radiohead-esque and that has those like almost that like hold on by Alabama shakes weight, like the breaks in the in the music for sure. We get that in a few other areas. And we get it on Most Wanted Man. And so there is, we get at the end, end of lost time. It's kind of lost time. Yeah, it gets grungy there too. Yeah, it's kind of Lucy's M.O., which is a cool little tactic that she uses to not really allow you to be lulled to

sleep by the sweetness of her voice. And so anyway, I'm with you that I think those, that most want a man is the one. And there's, I don't know, I mean, there is something super Tennessee about Julian Baker in the most like southern. Charmy, folksy, give zero fucks kind of way. She's mischievous, this one. How did you think about the collaborator question

in light of the bandmates of it all? Yeah. I mean, I think it's Julian Baker. And I'm not exactly sure. Yeah, shout out. You guys seem really happy, and I think it's cool. Yeah. I mean, that's it.

It's like, it is a choice to come out with such a personal and intimate and singularly purposeful album on the back of the Boy Genius Explosion. And it's, you know what it is? It's fucking indie, and it's kind of fucking cool because it's not reaching or trying to be, once you're inside the music, it's not reaching or trying to be anything else

other than what it is. It just, some of the setup and the bigness of the PR campaign felt like, oh, wait, is this record going to rival what we had from Phoebe? Do we have another Punisher coming? No, we don't. but we've got a really interesting documentation of love affair with Julian Baker. And I think if you're a fan of Lucy, the only thing that you will notice about this album is that

it is a little bit more reserved than some of her earlier work. And that, I think, is a reflection of the emotional place where she is. And you mentioned that coming through in the music, the instrumentation, the production. I hear it the most in the actual singing of these songs. The delivery is muted and it's a little timid in places. I will say, yes, I think a lot of the choices are sweeter. They're a little bit more dainty. They're a little bit more delicate.

You get those grungy moments in a couple of songs that we just talked about, but it's not all over the record. since we're talking about collaborators, I do think that I think there are some places where it really works. Like, for instance, I fuck with that harp on Come Out.

I think that's cool. I love it. I love that harp. She's not afraid to do that. There's lots of classical tinges scattered across this record, aren't there? Yes, including the Calliope prelude, which is cool, strings galore,

it sort of introduces the chamber pop elements that are pervasive throughout this whole album. I've said it before. I'll set it again. I'm done with these. I don't need them. Here is no exception, but that's okay.

Well, I didn't, yeah, I didn't necessarily need it at the beginning. How do you feel about limerence? If I stay busy, maybe I'll forget how I feel and go. It's a weird, moment for a fourth song. So it's one of my least favorite on the album in the sense that I just like don't think

that I'm going to return to it very much. It's not that I think it's bad. There are some cool things about it, but I find it less. There's just nothing that really grabs me. I will say if we're talking about cuts, I can't cut it because there's an Easter egg here or a potential Easter egg that I feel like I have. have to ask you about, which is what do you make of the second notable Grand Theft Auto reference in recent pop memory coming up on this song,

from a person who was invoked in the title track of the last dollar in the jar, Taylor Swift album. But she told Lucy you'd kill yourself if I ever leave. Yeah, these people get bored and play a lot of GTA, I guess. I really have a hard time. Well, not that, okay, Lucy's not saying that she's playing Grand Theft Auto. And fine, however you get your kicks. I am a little bit like the person who has the depth to write this album

and to think of another human being in all these different ways and to have these feelings. Like, are you really playing Grand Theft Auto all the time? Is it happening this much? Apparently. Swift and Lucy Dacus around Grand Theft Auto in such a capacity that it's coming... Are they good at it? I don't even know how you score GTA, but like who would have the higher score? I have no idea, but I guess I would want to know.

Do you think there's anything but a coincidence there? I like your Easter egg. I like your... Maybe there's a little... It's a sort of second, third level callback to the Taylor's part. Why not? like could it have been a different video game and she's just like,

oh, if I make this Grand Theftado, it'll be sort of cheeky. Look, like the, touch me while your boys play Grand Theftado that is obviously Travis coded. You told Lucy you'd kill yourself if I ever leave. It seems pretty clearly to be a Maddie reference

on tortured poets. These are not telling the story of the same experience, I do not believe. Are we sure? I don't know. It's like we're missing the third point on the triangle, you know, where some people were playing Grand Theft Auto.

Maybe Taylor was there. Maybe Travis was there. Maybe Lucy was there. Lucy's in the conversation with Maddie. There's something there that's connecting everything that we don't. Maybe that's also on the Julian Baker record that I'm never going to get. I guess what I'm asking is, do you think Natalie could be Taylor and Rodney as Travis? Natalie's explaining

limerings between taking heads from a blood Natalie's getting high which would be totally consistent with our she smokes now theory and Rodney's playing GTA I swear why is he goes so good at this game it should be cause for concern

Why is he so good at this game it should be cause for concern They spent a lot of time together. I mean, it was Lucy who sort of slapped back Maddie Healy on Twitter. Yes. When he made his, you know, his sort of boy genius joke that fell pretty flat. Yes. She's like, you don't hear from me at all.

You don't hear from me at all. Again, Queen. I don't. I do not in my heart. That's my conspiracy theory, just so you know. Natalie's Taylor, Rodney is Travis. I love that you're going there. I love the idea.

of it. And I'll tell you, I'll think on it some more and I'll tell you if my thinking changes. I just, I'm having trouble in my mind's eye, putting Lucy Dacus and Travis Kelsey in a room together and watching them vibe out. But it's pretty funny. So I'll continue to think about it and marinate on that theory. I love the theory. What's next? So I just gave you, I just skipped all the way to my little conspiracy corner and we talked about the collaborators. We did not cover what we would cut. Look, mentioned the thing about the prelude, but I guess I'm going to say that that doesn't count. Did you have something that you needed to particularly squash here? No. I, I, limerence for me, it is somewhat inside. I mean, it feels like something that gets played at the piano bar at the Carlisle in New York.

It just, it's a, not a banger, not a ballad. I don't know. It didn't hold a whole lot for me. But it, I guess, there's like a Judy Garland kind of delivery for sure. Yeah. There is a way that her voice kind of flickers a few times when it's like, I know what it is and I know what I'll pick in the outro. It kind of does that. And I do, I think there's something beautiful there. I just, I wish it were a little easier to latch on to. It's kind of confusing.

I mean, I felt like forever is a feeling I wanted more from the song. The second time around third and on, I liked it more. But I keep wanting. I kept wanting these songs to go to a higher place, and they didn't. Now, none of them, they all have their own intricate, lyrical interest for me, which is why I don't feel like I'd just cut any of them. Like, if you told me I had to cut bullseye or come out or for keeps or forever as a feeling, I'd probably be like, okay, fine.

Yeah. But I don't not like them. There's nothing where I had a reaction, like, please get this shit. off of my otherwise great album. The only song that I didn't really have... It's not that reaction, but the only song that didn't give me anything in terms of like, here's my takeaway from this.

Here's the one part that I've really latched on to was I didn't get a lot from Forkeeps. That's the only thing that mattered in the end. It's pretty short. It is. It's like a two-minute song. Yeah. that's how I feel.

That's more of a if you made me do it, though, because I feel the same way that you did. I just think, to me, lyrically, I can't let it go because I love if the devil's in the details, then God is the gap in your teeth. If the devil's in the details, then God is in the gap in your teeth.

You're doing the long work every time you're smiling. me. That's my favorite line of the whole album, even though I think, if that wasn't there, I'm with you, maybe that's the one that I'd cut loose. I love God is the gap in your teeth. Like, I can just see it. Yeah. Mind the gap. Very holy. Well, so then if that's your best lyric, I mean, if we do the next album question, I will say that even though the grunge stuff, you know, she's, she's been to that place before. I do think that because this is so,

I don't say this is a pejorative, soft. Like this is a soft, sort of mushy, almost record. Yeah. I can hear that, those moments, like, I think if I only listened to talk, I wouldn't like it as much as I like it in the context of the album. Because when it starts to get a little grungy like that, it feels welcome.

It feels like a little change of pace. And I can see that being a future direction, because I do think that she comes by those textures and those aesthetics honestly, likes to play in that wheelhouse. And it's just very much what's not happening here because that's not what this record is. But I wonder if that ends up being a little bit of a way to swerve out of one, what is just a particular sound, but two, a feature of this album that I think people have had some people have liked it, some people have and even the critics who really like Lucy as an artist have had limited interest in.

No, you don't want the Lucy Dacus Grunge record? I think that's what we're getting. I'm completely on board that I think that's the next album, Appetizer. Because I think she will hear that gentle pushback from the fan base that this went, it went a little soft, that's all. Not soft, rocky. It's just softer than you might have expected. She still has those little grungy flare-ups, but I do think that's where it's going. So you went, I love the gap in your teeth, God is in the gap in your teeth for best lyrics. Yeah, what did you think? I do love that. You make

me homesick for places I've never been before. How'd you do that? How's tomorrow so far from Midigliani? I just, to me, that's really, that's really. To me, that's really. really vivid. It's really charming. The fact that it is this sort of awestruck for places I've never been before about you do that how's tomorrow so far? The fact that it is

this sort of awestruck line about a woman but not the object of most of the album. Like there's something cool about that to me. that that one's just really stuck with me. I also think, if you don't know

what a Modigliani painting looks like, Google it, because that's really vivid too. And when she talks about her long face in this song, like, it'll click. People should do that if that mental image is not coming to mind. Are you ready to grade?

Yeah. So I don't like doing this one because this is the this is the restaurant, this is the, you know, review app thing where I want to be able to give it an A for the lyrics and a different grade for the instrumentation and a different grade for the delivery and everything. But I'll do it because we have to.

We make this promise. I intend to keep it. I guess I wrapped that all up into a B plus. Okay. I now feel very bad for giving it a B because I think lyrically it's, it's an absolute A. I just didn't get lost in a song. And Lucy Dacus has written songs

into which I have gotten lost. And this album, I am very much into the lore and the story and the vignettes and the film from her camera. I just didn't get drawn into songs that I think I'm going to go back to on an individual basis. From a front to finish,

it tells a really interesting and, you know, as you've laid out, sort of a heartwarming story in its own way. I'm being somewhat generous with it because I do think, I just want to acknowledge in the conversation about this that when we talk about the lyrical writing that is present on this record,

it's A, it might be A plus. It's really good. It's smart. It's funny. I would be remiss not to mention at some point here, the ankle the how did I, like the big pregnant pause and then sleep. It's funny.

Like there's punchlines. And I think that's so wonderful. And even if someone isn't firing on every single cylinder, watching something, listening to something where someone is excelling, even if it's just in one area, I do think is special. And I think it makes this album. a little bit better than I would say on average, it feels like it's getting reviewed as being, or even, I think, talked about amongst Lucy fans as being,

because I think there's an element of that fan base that feels a little bit, oh, I love the story, but I have the same feelings about it not modulating quite as much as she often does and people were maybe hoping or used to. But I just think the lyrics are so good that I want to be generous with it. I want a Phoebe album and I want it now. I love it.

I love that Lucy looks at her as a total animal. It's great. You really got a lot in that vein out of this record. So there's a lot here if you dig for it. I mean, are we getting a Phoebe album, Nathan? We are going to get a Phoebe album. Not this year. But not this year. Soon enough.

All right. Stay tuned. Lucy Degas, forever is a feeling. Fun to talk about. This has been every single album. I'm Nora Preciati. As always, he's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to the fabulous Kai McMullen for producing this episode. And we'll talk to you about Miley Cyrus next week.