Every Single Album - 'GUTS' | Every Single Album: Olivia Rodrigo

Episode Date: September 14, 2023

It's time to spill our guts. Nora and Nathan talk about the sophomore album from Olivia Rodrigo, the immense pressure she was under after the success of 'SOUR' (1:00), how Dan Nigro and other influences helped her develop the sound on this album (24:44), and debate whether or not songs like "the grudge" and "lacy" are about Taylor Swift (41:31). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, this is Jason Gough from the Full Go podcast. Me and the crew, we like to entertain you. And we're going to do more of that this football season because the bears should be more intriguing. There should be more fascination. Justin Fields. Is this the make or break gear? Is DJ Moore the piece that's going to put them over the top? You can catch us on Sundays, Tuesdays and Thursdays, or when we have an emergency podcast when we have breaking news.

Make sure you follow the full go on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Prunciati. I am here with Nathan Hubbard to talk about Olivia Rodriguez's guts. Nathan, say hello to the people. Hello to the people. I don't know if we at some point on this episode are going to talk about the 20-minute conversation we just had before we went live.

Nope. Nope. It's not coming up. We're talking about Olivia Rodriguez today and Olivia Rodriguez only. With Olivia Rodriguez. So I just want everyone to know you and I have not said word one to one another about this album guts. Not a single word.

Not one single word. And it has been very hard for me to restrain myself. But also I had to restrain myself because I couldn't tell you anything that I think about this album without telling you everything I think about this album,

which is that I think it's incredible. And I'm so proud of her and I'm like completely blown away by this thing. Well, I sort of spilled my own guts on Twitter because of that reason. Uh-oh. I couldn't kind of contain it. I was, I preserved a part of my Saturday to listen to it. I was busy on Friday and I was

like, okay, I'm just going to set aside time. And I was driving Mulholland in L.A. by myself with the album on. And I was, like, there were moments on this album where I screamed, holy fucking shit. Like, it surprised me. It delighted me. we're going to talk about it, but this is as much for the quality under the pressure and accomplishment as it is on a standalone basis. I mean, we knew we were going to talk about this album, right?

We spent all summer talking about Taylor and there was always this mark on the calendar of like, okay, Olivia's second record is coming out in September. Can't wait to hear it. And there's some nerves that go along with that, right? Like a sophomore record is a dangerous thing. And given how just meteoric driver's license was in particular, but then how good Sauer was and, you know, she wins three Grammys.

She just shoots onto the scene. Yeah. It's a scary place to be. Even I think for us, just for people who, like for fans of hers, for people who just want good music to listen to, there's this feeling of like, right, can she do it again? Has she set ridiculous expectations for herself? And is she going to be able to live up to those things?

Right. It's like Joe Burrough signing that contract and laying an egg on Sunday. But it's not. Okay. And it's so satisfying when something with this much hype becomes, and I swear I'm not just like leaning into the hyperbole of this. This was everything I wanted it to be. And I think more.

There's a lot of this that is surprising. I think these songs are really impressively crafted. They sound like they took time. They sound like they took thought. They sound like they were just the product of a really, really, really, really fruitful creative partnership and creative experience.

I'm so excited to talk about them. But like, I just don't want to, I don't want to, you know, be coy about it. I think this album is fucking great. And that is a really fun thing for what it means for Olivia.

just having her second record be so good and so strong. But I think also for the musical moment that we're in now, where it just seems so hard for people to break through. Well, it is. And it is so hard for people to break through. Right. And if you're not Taylor Swift or Beyonce. Yeah, she is the last artist to break globally.

Her last album is the last time an artist really broke globally worldwide. You might say Bad Bunny, but Bad Bunny's not. selling tickets in a lot of markets that you think he might be able to do it. I'm not sure how big his ticket sales are going to be in London or in Paris or in Germany, right? So this is a super hard thing to do. And I think when you make comparisons, I don't think the statistics are particularly helpful when you make these comparisons because, you know, album sales from 25 years ago so different than what it's like to be a big artist in the streaming era. But this first album, I mean, There is an enormous, like there is Alanis Morissette post jagged little pill type pressure on an artist to come back with that.

And I know that Alanis had all the number one hits and there was mass. And it was, but in terms of this music industry, this moment in time, this global culture, Olivia Rodriguez was a breakthrough artist with huge expectations. And going into the studio to do that at 19 damn years old and what's beautiful about this record, in a lot of ways is she just told the truth. Right. About what that process felt like and about sort of everything that went into making this. And she spoke what it felt like.

She didn't tell us really till the end about that pressure, but she does tell us. I want to hear a little more from you as we go through these songs and go through the categories about the expectations and about how we should. track the success of this record because I'm really curious to see how this does. And right, this is one of the albums where we're not analyzing it with the benefit of hindsight. All we can do here is predict since it's just a few days old. Yeah. I'm going to wonder how it's going to stack up to sour just in terms of the sheer stats of it all.

because the first two singles, so far, you know, and again, this is all so fresh, but driver's license spent eight weeks at number one, right? Like, Sauer was the most streamed album of 2021. Good for you. Didn't have the peak life, didn't get to the same peak position as driver's license for that long. But it charted for 51 weeks. That was the real riser. I think actually it's her most streamed song.

Now, I think it has surpassed driver's license. Those are huge, huge, huge, huge, huge numbers. And so far, I don't think it looks like vampire or bad idea right. Sucker, fame fucker, bleeding me dry like a goddamn vampire. Look at it's fine. Are on that type of trajectory. They're definitely, I don't want to spoil. I think should be some real risers and songs with crazy staying power because they're just so good from this record.

I just think it's going to be a litmus test for the moment of our ability to distribute content. Yeah. Because for as good as I think this record is, I'm a little wary to see, like, how big it actually gets. Whether or not that happens, I think it's going to speak to how good are we at. putting the stuff that's really good out there and having it be received. If this doesn't truly hit, all that says to me is that we are still in this kind of broken moment of content distribution and even for something this good for someone who has hit a home run with that amount of pressure on her.

Like, I don't want a concern troll, but I just don't want the stakes to be, it has to stream as much or sell as much. Because I'm not sure it will. No, but remember, when we draw the pie chart of an artist's revenue, 10 to 15% of it is income from recorded music at this point. Because they just don't make that many pennies from what streams on Spotify and Apple and Amazon. The bulk of what comes for these artists today is touring. And there is an ever-growing piece of the pie.

that is stuff beyond touring. And as we'll talk about today, Olivia is one of the next generation of artists, and I do mean next generation. She is 14 years younger than Taylor Swift. Everything about this album screams different generation for a different younger group of people, not attempting to win 45-year-old mothers,

but going after people who aspire to be 19 are 19, still remember 19 very closely in the rear view mirror and what it feels like to be that age. That's what this album is about. And for her, that growing piece of a pie is permission that she has to be more than just a musician. Multi-hyphenate creators are real.

She is, as we all know, an actress. She is, as we all know, a musician. Those are the foundations of a growing brand. I think she is looking as much to Selena Gomez, who is managed by the same team of excellent people, and who has a half billion dollar plus makeup brand in rare, and is also a musician and is also an actress,

as she is to say Taylor Swift, and I know we're going to talk a lot about Taylor Swift during this podcast just because how could we not... We need a Taylor jar, like a swear jar, for whatever we bring up Taylor. Exactly. We just got to put a quarter in the jar. But this is...

one of those next generation multi-hyphenate creators, where I think she has shifted the core foundation of the brand from filmed short, long-form video to music. And we're going to see, I think indisputably, regardless of how this thing streams, she just put out enough bangers to make an arena show go. And the extent to which that is 70 to 80% of an artist's revenue, and I'm telling you, we're going to get a world tour on sale,

in the next couple of weeks, for sure, if not in the next couple of days. This, she now has the material. And you know I still want to hear all I want, but she now has the material to go fill up an arena and make it bounce. Oh, God, we're all going to be in the queue again. You know what's funny?

I want us to go through the categories, but you just made me think of this. Of course, this album is so much about being 19, and it is for people who either are in that literal headspace or can access it. But, I mean, I'm 29. And it really struck me listening to this album how much... Like, she's a pretty sophisticated 19.

Hell, yes, she is. Jokes, the references. I was just like, this is one of my friends. Like, she talks like one of my friends. She sounds like... I mean, she told. Vogue, she's really into doing the New York Times crossword. She had Gia Tolentino do her Vogue profile.

Like, I'm just imagining her opening up her laptop and like checking what's on the cut. And that's not what I think of what I think of 19. It's a little, it's not wildly older than that, but it's a little bit older than that. It's fair, but she's been, she's been thrust into this position since she was a kid, right? I mean, she has been a full-time job since she was 14. Like, she's not a normal 19-year-old. that she is not. She is a child star in a lot of ways,

but she sounds on this album like the voice of a generation to me. And I think... I agree. Listen, she... I just think that part of the strength of that is that that generation... I think she has two generations.

I think she has Gen Z, and I think she has a solid chunk of millennials who really vibe with her and really connect with her. Some of it is through the sort of like God damn Olivia Rodriguez, you would have loved 2004 of it all. But a lot of it is just she's smart and she's funny. And she seems, even though she has had a unique life to really have lived through

and be living through a lot of like the normal girl trials and tribulations. Yes. And so this is me just expressing the fact that like as I approached my third decade, I was reading all the reviews of like Olivia Rodriguez was writing about what it means to be a 19 year old. And I was like, well, it's not just that. Fair enough. It's okay for you to relate to it. And it's okay for me to appreciate it as music and like

appreciate the poetry of it. Because this is, while all of the stories are talking about this being a rock album, I'm telling you, this is much of like a spoken word and a rap album as anything else. She has this way of fitting more words into a bar of music than almost anyone else before her. Dude. She's got some of the cadence of M&M. This is more of a, like, a rap album than a Taylor Swift album. Who is the flow coach, Olivia?

It's incredible. It's... It's so good. It is. It's so good. It is. And because of her child stardom and her baseline talent, vocally, she is something completely different on this album than almost any other 19-year-old.

whether she's rapping, whether it's spoken word, whether she's singing Broadway live, whether she's whispering, all of the character of her instrument is on display here. And when you layer that on top of songs that, as we'll talk about, it really feels like two people went in a room,

closed the door, and just wrote. Most labels would have put a team of everybody, all of the 20 writers on the Beyonce record or the Kid Harpoon, they would have said, we need those people to come work with Olivia because we just, let's just assume that somebody will have a good idea and we'll work it all out and make it go. But no, she blocked out the noise,

went into a very small studio, the same place where they made Sour, locked the door and went to work. And I think it's that focus and the smallness of the, you know, again, constraints breed creativity. And so when you've got the constraint of how are we going to do this, but it is a team of people who know what success sounds like. It's not unlike Billy Elish and her brother Phineas,

who I think are the closest comparison, going into their parents' bedroom like we saw in that documentary with the pressure of the next album and just fucking getting to work. This feels like a very similar process that has resulted something that is certainly on par in terms of its excellence. I fully, fully agree. That said. Someday she's going to have a Max Martin moment and it's going to be electric.

I don't know. Not everybody needs Max Martin. Not everybody needs him, but he's there. He's there when she needs him. A flight away. He's just a flight away. But I'm so happy to see an artist, you know, without Max, without Jack. No, no.

I like really, really, really fully could not agree more as it pertain to that. I'm just saying, well, one of the cool things about doing it this way, right? Is it leaves so many more buttons to press? Exactly. It leaves so many more possibilities unexplored and someday we'll get there. But right now, we are talking just about this moment. Let's get started.

Let's do biggest hit. I'm going to ask you what yours is first. Well, we're about to find out because the answer should be get him back. I thought I was going to be cool for having chosen this. No fucking way. I mean, this has, crew summer should have been the song of the summer vibes all over it. And I'm probably biased because I'm sitting here in L.A.

And like it's been beautiful and warm lately after a summer of clouds. And there's just all kinds of like open top vehicles cruising down the PCH. This song is that. It is just the song that should have been of the summer. and I think they're going to regret not having put it out, if not in place a vampire is the first single, certainly is the second single. It's fucking awesome.

I think you probably will be proven right in that if there is a little bit left to be desired in terms of just the overall size and scale that this record achieves. That said, I feel like we are building to this sort of Olivia Rodriguez third single is really where it's at lineage because of what happened,

with Good for You. Yep. I mean, you brought up the flow. This is the flow on level 12. The song is so fucking funny, and she's so sharp. And I can't believe this song exists. I love it so much. Maybe I could fix it.

Well, it has real Jane Says vibes. And then maybe a little bit of Steal My Sunshine. Yeah. The bridge, like if you just go to that bridge where they sort of drop out a bunch of the instrumentation, it sounds just a little bit like Band-Aids don't fix bullet holes part of bad blood. Band-aids don't fix bullet holes. You say sorry just for show. I won't break his heart.

Stitch it up. Right? That counts. Put it in the coin in the. jar at 25 cents. You got it. And you wanted your Max Martin. If you just strip out and listen to some of the guitar strumming, you might hear some we are never, ever, ever getting back together, right? Wee. Yeah. I mean, there's some group singing and all that. But I mean, this is powerful. She just dropped the video for this song this afternoon, all shot on an iPhone exclusively.

It's great. It's also an advertising. for the iPhone 15. Well, but which conversely means that the iPhone 15 is now advertising for Olivia Rodrigo. Well, that's right. And just to get to peak Olivia, I don't want to jump ahead, but that's going to be me saying that here is an example of the next generation of creator who takes her music, her on-screen persona, combining it with a brand and making something even more powerful, right as iPhone, right as Apple is putting out the iPhone 15. But yeah, this is going to be the biggest song.

And I think you're very wise to point out it's the third one and it's the one that may hit the hardest. Vampire, let's make sure we don't overlook it because it deserves all the flowers it gets. I mean, when I first heard it, it was Broadway Live. I was like, what in the hell is this? And the more I listened to it, the more I felt like, man, this is a song. in multiple acts that is sort of written for the ADHD generation that can be consumed in snippets that has just, she is the fucking master of saying the word fuck. She is the world global reigning champion.

She has a title belt of best singer of the word fuck. There are rappers who say it better. Nobody sings the word fuck like Olivia Rodrigo. Famefucker was inspired. That was an inspired choice. If I were 19, I would be like plotting waves to write a college dissertation

on that singular choice of word. It's so good. It is so much better than Starfucker. I can't, like, how did that come out of her brain? It's awesome. I'm like, I'm just, just hats off. I'm just very impressed with this woman. I think she's very cool.

But in both of these songs, there's a kind of a common thread. isn't there, which is that she is frequently a victim, but she's not a passive victim. She's never, never the cat in the tree. There's always a self-deprecation about it and almost like a scolding of herself for allowing herself to be used or disrespected or hurt. But in every moment, there is an immediate strike back. And it's the double entendre. of getting back, but it's also like fame fucker.

Like just that phrase in and of itself is a fucking dagger to whoever did that to her. Well, because it's like, it's like Starfucker is at least like, that's about a person. Fame is just, that's not even, that's just a commodity,

which I think is so biting. I like, it's, it gives me chills. It is. I never want to be in a fight with Bolivia Rodrigo. Hell, no, you don't. and we'll talk a lot more about that through the course of this.

Is there anything else from Biggest Hit that you think even has a chance? Bad idea, right? It has a lot of... I don't mean to reduce it to this at all because I think it's great and I mean, it's so funny. It has real TikTok applications.

Yeah. And we'll have a very long and successful life, I think, because of that. I do think, like, it's not my... You know, we'll talk about some of the lyrics, but I just have to shout out a couple moments from that song. Can't two people reconnect, like, has me on the floor. That's so funny.

That is just so funny. It's just so funny. I don't want to explain Olivia Rodriguez jokes for this whole podcast, but, like, I am flabbergasted. I'm sensing some undertone, also a really, really good line. So, like, it's sort of a bit more than it is, like, one of the absolute hit songs. Yeah, but like even that thing, but I still. think that it's fantastic. The knock at the start of the song

with those hushed but knowing whispers of sneaking into someone's room under the cover of darkness. It's like the prequel to the walk of shame. I just, I love it so much. It's just like... It's so good. Yeah.

The probably not, like, it's, it really does, and it has so many different little, like, component parts to it. Right. Which I'm just so glad that she and Dan just made this whole thing together as you were explaining.

Like, I know I was joking about Max Martin, but I don't think a lot of that happens if it's not just two people who can sort of play off of each other and come up with all of these little like angel devil voice, I should probably, probably not things

and have all of those things bouncing back and forth and them talking to each other. It's so like layered and it gets the punchlines exactly right. And I don't, like you can't really do that by committee.

Right. And she is genuinely really funny. Yeah. Like on stage, I think, would be really funny. Like, she, it's not like, oh, she made some good jokes. I'm like Olivia Rodriguez dropped the Netflix special. Like, these are good bits.

Yeah. Well, she's been out at it a while. I think to contextualize, all-American bitch is not, I think, the best song on the album. I like it a lot. And I love the back and forth between the angelic voices and the gentle plucking of guitar, and then the riot girl stuff.

I guess we found out this is inspired by the book, White album by Joan Didion. But the first three songs in a row, like you can't come away from those three and not be like, who the hell is this? Because you get the riot girl stuff, then you get bad idea right,

which is this cacophony and schizophrenic sort of back and forth and so much youth. And like you say, like humor and self-deprecation, but also like, fuck you. And then Vampire is this, again, it's like a Broadway musical. It is such a great start to a record.

But again, I think as great as that sort of threesome and triplet is together for me, man, there just is not, getting back is going to be the biggest song from this album. But I will say this to you, Nora Prenciotti. It is not the best song in this album. But I want to hear yours. What's the best? Okay. So I, you don't think it's the best song?

Because I had to think long and hard about this. And in my heart of hearts, I kind of might have to give it to get him back. Okay. But if it's not that, for me, it's love is embarrassing. Okay. Talk to me.

This song is awesome. First of all, Dan is just shredding. Like, if he wants to have a rock star moment on this tour. I mean, I don't know if he'll be a part of her live band or whatever, but I just think it's so,

it's cool to hear that. It's unexpected. It comes kind of late in the song. Yeah. This is not what you asked me, but the Spotify vertical video for this one is so funny. It's just a,

it's like a bookshelf, but then all of the books have titles like, how to mother your boyfriend or like manifesting a text back. And it just really really spoke to me. Second string loser

who's not worth mentioning is a great... Oh my God! Do you hear the Lord voice? Totally. I mean, Lord voice... Lord voice is all over this song. And I mean, we know she's absolutely worships at the altar, which is fine.

It's on this song. It's on this song. It's on some of the slower ones, too. It's on some of the ballads. But it's super, super catchy. I wouldn't be like shocked. if this song ends up being kind of a riser to

I think get him back it just has a little bit more narrative power to it I guess but love is embarrassing and the lyrics are a really good encapsulation of that it's super super catchy and I also think it's one of those songs

that I mean you mentioned all the reviews kind of pointing out oh she's a rock star like she's leaning into all of the rock sounds. And there's like that's there's definitely something to that. I'm curious what you think about that. I tend to be very skeptical of how much people her age and of her musical generation center genre. No.

In that way, I don't mean like being aware of it. She's very smart and she's an incredible artist. Of course she knows what genres she's playing with and what her references are. I'm just not like I'm not positive that the thing that she thinks about because she knows her audience which I think tends to be pretty genre agnostic

would set out to say okay I'm going to have a real rock and roll moment right now but I could hear the argument for it to in the sense that when she does do these interviews she is dropping a lot of reference you know she's talking about the white stripes and she's making it clear that she has

rage against the machine is her favorite band right Like she's making it very clear that she has that in her bag and that that's informing at least her tastes, if not her own work. But if I choose to sort of live in the ambiguity of that, I think this song is a really good example of it because it's just, it's catchy in all the ways that you want a top 40 song to be. But again, like, there go those guitars. Yeah. And that's a cool. That's always good. She's dropping F bombs in this song too.

Right. She's dropping F bombs all. over the place. And so that's just a really fun. That's a fun mode for me to be listening to her. But you have another song. What is it? I do.

And I feel very passionately about it. I am moved deeply by a lot of the ballads on this album, but none more than the grudge. I say that I'm fine, but you know I can't let it go. I've tried, I've tried, I've tried for soul. I adore this song. This song, the slowdown at the end and the silent finish.

It takes strength to forgive. For me, it takes strength to forgive you, but I'm not quite sure I'm there yet. She just lets your mind fill in the words at the end. You don't need to hear them. You get the E-flat to the B-flat at the end without the lyric. it just destroys me. I screamed,

fuck yes in my car when I heard it because you sort of just intuitively knew that she was going to drop out at the end there after this just painstaking ballad that it just rips you open. It's gorgeous, and to just finish with silence for me, it's such a powerful way

to say you are not forgiven. It just, it got me. And maybe it was the drive, maybe, I don't know what it was, but this song for me, and look, I might have argued logic. Because if rain don't pour and sun don't shut and changing you as possible. Because I think logic, I mean, besides the fact that logical starts, start, it's like a someone like you, Adele start right out of the gate. You just, you just will be like, I heard.

Like, yeah, I got it. Okay. I let you settle down. I still manipulate you later. I just show good out what you do. But there's, that one follows a set of songs that have whipped you back and forth between ballads and hard rock punk shredding, like you said. But there's moments in logical where I don't even know, like we might get punk drums right now or we might continue on as a ballad. It's got melody from the boxer.

I am just a poor boy, though my story is seldom told. and I fell for you like water falls from the February sky It's got low stuff in the bridge that sounds like welcome to New York Let's go back to the jar But the end of logical Kind of smushed me

Like those voices, the lyrics are fine But it just falls a little flat for me So that song was building, building, building in a way that I was falling in love with it, but it didn't quite get me there. Then you jump to get him back. You jump to love as embarrassing, and you're sort of back in the high bounce in an arena moment,

and then bang, you get the grudge. And for me, that one just, it just ripped me apart. I love that song so much. I'm going to skip forward a little bit in our categories. I cut the grudge. Holy shit. I don't really like it. What?

It's, it's, it's, it's, I agree with the, I think the ending, I think the ending of it is, is, is the best part of it. By the way, I think the ending of logical is the best part of logical. But I think it's cool how she drops out. Are you crazy? That's about all I can say in terms of what grabs me in the song. How cold is your heart? I think it's pretty warm. I don't know. You're made of stone. I don't, I, so here's what I will say. For all of Olivia's, immense talents. I don't always grab the emotion from her voice particularly easily when she's being sort of plain spoken. When she is being sort of performatively cheeky or silly or deliciously a little bit unhinged or sarcastic, I find like even though it is campy and a little bit over the top, there's something about that that I find very moving because I feel very seen by it. And I feel like it just reflects some of the wackiness and playfulness of women in their zone.

I don't always pick out the like individual threads of deeply, deeply felt emotion. in some of her songs. Mm. And that definitely happened to me on a fair, not all of the ballads, certainly, but like some of the ballads on this, I didn't totally, didn't totally hook me.

The grudge is definitely, wow, you would cut it. The one where that happened. Making the bed didn't grab me either. I think it is such an honest song. I mean, making the bed, I don't doubt that it's true. Like, I don't, I don't doubt the honest. of it. It just

doesn't sink its teeth into me. Making the bed, the reason that it didn't grab you is because the verse is stick season by Noah Khan. You must have had yourself a change of heart that halfway through the drive.

Another piece of plastic could just throw away another conversation with nothing good to say. And then the chorus switches immediately to falling by Harry Stiles. And it's really just the stitching of those two songs together.

Making the bed was fine for me. The grudge slayed me. And I'm so, like, this is one of the biggest disagreements over a song that you and I have ever had. I was like, I mean, this is, we really, really didn't talk about it. And I'm surprised. I'm not surprised that the ballads mean more to you than they do to me. I'm surprised you like this song this much.

I really, I really did like this song this much. But then, so then I have to ask you, like, hmm, that's really, logical you're okay with? So I didn't love, logical to me, I really do love that bridge and outro when she really crushes the vocal. Said I was too young and I was too soft. Can't take a joke.

Get you out. And it's sort of screeching and gut-wrenching. That, like, that stopped me in my tracks. I got to say the rest of the song doesn't totally get me there. I think it's some of the worst lyrical writing on the album. But because of how that song develops, I do. Like, I wouldn't cut it. I loved in the chorus that changing you is possible, which, of course, it isn't, right?

The sort of up is down, red is green. How about the part where she says can't get you off? Can't take a joke. Can't get you off. Well, that's what I'm talking about. It's like that that's kind of a bar, you know? And there's an intensity to that that I found very compelling. Right.

You know, the 2 plus 2 is equals 5. I don't know. Two plus 2 equals 5. I don't. I, it's just not my favorite. I think there are very few, like, there are very few skips on this album, but, but these are among my least favorites. Wow. And do you buy into any of the lore, putting money in the jar, around the grudge being about a certain someone?

Okay, do you want to just talk about it? Fine. Yes, I do think that it's about, I, well, so hold on. Come on. I definitely think Lacey is about Taylor Swift. I'm a little split on the grudge. If nightmarries each week about that Friday and May one phone call from you and my entire world was changed. Just because the wonderful denizens of the internet have informed me.

I haven't seen it. I should watch it. That in her documentary, she refers to having been broken up with. on May 8th, 2020, which was a Friday. She mentions a Friday in May. Now, May was also when May of 2021 was when they retroactively gave credit to Taylor for Cruel Summer on Dejaveu. So.

It's interesting, though, Nora. I mean, she's just in this Rolling Stone article today is like, or yesterday, whatever, is like, listen, I'm not into beefs. I don't have beefs with anybody. Something is cold. She's like that songwriting stuff was handled team to team. I wasn't really involved. But she's had every single opportunity to say,

I love her so much and it was great. And it didn't happen. She's done a hard pass on praise. Although she did in the interview with Phoebe Bridgers, at least say that was like an epic tour. It was amazing. Right? even though she, I guess, didn't see it.

Yes. Right. I mean, that is the exception that proves the rule maybe because in every single instance where she has been asked publicly recently in this round of press about whether or not there's beef with Taylor, which has been asked of her enough times where you'd think that if there was a real interest in squashing it, I mean, it doesn't matter if they're feeling it from the heart. they have an interest in doing this. They can walk down the street together or, like, say something nice or throw up a retweet. And it's probably all over. And absolutely no one has taken the opportunity to do that. On either side.

On either side. Right. I mean, and Taylor, like, I don't want to make too much of this. But Taylor's on tour was Sabrina Carpenter. Taylor and Olivia, that was for a couple of months there. that was a real love fest. Well, I mean, did Taylor use Olivia? Or did Olivia use Taylor?

I mean, also, like, look, I don't mean to be cynical, but are they still using each other? Because it does kind of, even if there was a real beef here, it kind of surprises me that no one has squashed it. And sometimes conflict is good for business. I don't like that narrative. Like, I hope that's not true just because it's sort of icky. but if all anyone wanted to do were to end this story, it could have been done with a lot more ease. Oh, it's a story.

And you're right to point out that in that Rolling Stone article, she did the same thing when she was asked her actually about Taylor that she does in every article, which is give an answer that she needs. knows is unsatisfying, but just say, I don't have, she said, I don't have beef with anyone. I'm very chill. I keep to myself. She was also asked about having to give retroactive credit to Paramore. And I thought that was interesting because she was a little bit feistyer about it.

She said, I was a little caught off guard. At the time, it was very confusing. And I was green and bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. Is that the phrase? And then there was a follow-up where they asked her if she would do that to another artist. And she said, I don't think I would ever personally do that. but who's to say where I would be in 20, 30 years? Yeah, which is a dunk in and of itself.

It's a dunk in and of itself. I say again, I never want to be in a fight with Olivia Rodriguez. It's a good moment to move to who we think her most important collaborator is, because my argument is that her most important collaborator was Taylor Swift, because I think this Taylor Swift stuff is the best possible thing that could have happened to her. I think it did sting. And I think suddenly three songs on this massive hit album were claimed by others. And inherently the fan bases, but also the press to a certain extent.

And it's clear based on the fact that she is a creature of social media that she pays attention. There was a maybe legit, maybe not legit question of can she actually do this on her own without Taylor Swift? can she actually do this on her own without copying others? Was this album actually sort of ghost-penned in some ways by Taylor Swift? And there's more conspiracy theory there than reality, but the truth is I think it's dumb. Yeah, I mean, not if you listen to the whole album is, I think, a little bit silly. It is.

But look, following a first album hit is nearly impossible. Again, Alanis Morissette couldn't do this. Taylor Swift did not have this pressure. There wasn't a single song from debut album. in the Ares Tour set list, except for the surprise song. So Taylor didn't even have the pressure of following that up. She certainly felt it after fearless. But the second one, can I do?

I mean, she sings about this totally openly on Teenage Dream, right? Right. It does Olivia about the pressure of doing that. But to me... Say I'll get better, but what if I don't? This was a forcing function for her to find a sound that was decidedly not Taylor Swift. and with all due respect to Gracie Abrams,

a lot of speculation that maybe Lacey is about Gracie Abrams. We can come back to Lacey, especially when we talk about songs that we're not necessarily into. With all, like, this album does not sound like a Taylor Swift record. To me, it sounds more like an M&M record than a Taylor Swift record. And I'm being slightly hyperbolic, but this is its own thing, as David S. Pumpkins would say. Yeah, yeah, and David Pumpkins is...

His own thing. Okay, wait, hold on, though. Yeah. The Taylor Beef was more significant than whatever happened with Paramore and Misery Business, even though that was the more blatant copy. I'm going to use that word. I think that the concerns about her being overly derivative or not being able to write a song without snatching little bits and pieces from other people's work were ridiculous

off of Olivia's first album. I think good for you. I think they deserved that credit on... I don't disagree. Good for you. I don't disagree. I think it's up to the individuals how big of it. Like, I've never been in that position, right?

Like, I think that's the type of thing where depending on the circumstances can be not a big deal at all. There are samples all the time. I mean, they cleared New Year's Day before the album came out. Someday will know. The lawyers knew each other because of that. Right. There was an email thread. And there was an email thread

and a phone call. Yeah. I can also see it being massively impactful in some ways when you're feeling all the pressure of being on this massive stage for the first time. But I think it could have narrowed the aperture.

Like, I don't have to make a huge record. I got to make sure I'm not Taylor. Hold on. So your point is that that made her feel like I'm going to make a record and I have to make sure that I'm not Taylor and because Taylor's stature

is what it is and because she'd been the world's most famous Swiftie or whatever it was that was more important and something

that provided more direction and influence than what happened with Paramore because this happened with two artists right, Taylor and Paramore and I agree with you

Guts does not sound like a Taylor Swift record it arguably sounds a little bit like pair or more record in some spots. Yeah. Not in a way that I think is problematic in the slightest. I think it is delicious.

Yeah. But if we're going to make the argument that the concerns over how much of this is derivative pushed her somewhere, it is at least somewhat interesting to me that if it pushed her away from one of the people who asked from retroactive credit, didn't seem to do that for the other. Look, what happens in big football games when there's a ton of pressure? The coach always looks for bullet and board material. which is psychologically a distraction from getting you to think about the pressure to be mad

and to compartmentalize it and push through it. I think that's part of what happened here. I think she relieved herself of some of the pressure of the follow-up and everything could it be to be like, I am not going to make a Taylor Swift record. I'm going to make something that is uniquely my own. And this album is uniquely her own. Yes, it taps into things we've heard before. yes, you know, baves and toilet, like, it's all over this record.

Rage Against the Machine, sure. But this is something for her generation. This would never be passed off as something else. And I think it helped. It was a, that entire episode was a catalyst for what we got here. And I think without it, we might not have gotten this record. We might have gotten, and again, I love that Gracie Abrams record, but it sure sounds like she's chasing Taylor Swift more than she's trying to

you something completely solo on her own. This feels like a standalone voice of a generation, something you got to reckon with. And I think that's part of the tension. Right. Well, and I do think for his little, I didn't think the first, like other than some little snippets, which I do think it's fair game for Taylor to send the lawyers and say, hey, look, credit words do. I didn't think the first record sounded like it was derivative of Taylor Swift.

So I didn't really have those concerns for this one. The thing that that is interesting within that context, though, is that while I don't think it's there musically, we got a lot of vinals. We got a lot of different colored vinals for this. We have this multi-platform rollout. We have the fact that we're hearing and, you know, there's a line in each one of these profiles and these stories about how Olivia negotiated. for the right to own her masters when she did her deal. The footprints of, you know, the blueprints laid by Taylor Swift are all over her career because she's the most influential person in music or in pop music or in just sort of stardom

over the course of Olivia's lifetime. And that's fine. Like, that's how it should be. I'm sure that's complicated if there's been some tension and you're going from, I idolize this person. I listen to their songs every day. you know, they made me want to be a songwriter. And now we do have this conflict or just a harsh reality of business superseding those warm, fuzzy

feelings of listening to someone in your room when you're 12. Business-wise that Taylor stood up for that guided the career, it hasn't gone well for people on the other end of Taylor Swift's copyrights, ever. Right. And I'm not like, this is not, like, this is not, me to be incredibly clear. Like, I think Olivia is navigating this incredibly well. And if she's hurt by that, I think that's just as much her prerogative as it is Taylor's

to say, I think I deserve credit for this and I'm going to ask for it. Yeah. I do think that it's worth being aware of the fact that there are paths Taylor has paved that I think are very helpful to Olivia Rodriguez and to anyone. one. And this is me maybe being a little bit defensive of Taylor as someone who I think has been accused of just sort of being out for herself. But as we watch Olivia's career move forward, we're starting to see real examples of how her influence on the music industry actually hasn't just helped Taylor Swift. It's helped Taylor Swift, but it's also helped other people.

It's my only point. Well, this is one that from my perspective is on the 34-year-old who's now getting, almost 34-year-old, who's now getting paid fairly for those copyrights, where I'm sure they did not have a phone conversation. I'm not sure. I suspect they didn't have a phone conversation between the two of them, as Olivia said, it was team to team. And I can understand how if there was some pushback from one lawyer or the other, that there was a little bit of drama. But my sense is it's probably better for the world that this not be a beef between two sort of generational stars. So let's see what happens.

We've got the VMAs tonight. Maybe Taylor's going to show up. We've got a world tour coming. There's going to be a Grammy moment at some point in the next five months. She's going to show up with Olivia. They're going to share like a big huge hug, and we're going to have to record this entire podcast. No, but I think I think what happens here is still TBD.

That's for sure. She didn't go to the tour. there's been the public statements. It hasn't been, she's had all the opportunity. Taylor's had opportunity too. Hasn't happened. Let's see where we go from here.

Who, from your perspective, was her most important collaborator? Okay, I thought about being cheeky, but I wanted to talk about Dan, Nigro. Good. I know you would. I'm a little jealous of their vibe together. It seems really special and wonderful.

And I think I brought this up earlier, just the fact that I think that the little the little bits and quirks and just fun things that happen in each one of these songs to me you really hear a collaboration just between two people who are working with each other all the time

I mean I think of the little chord switch on the just like the goddamn Kennedy's in All American Bitch which is it sounds sounds cool. It is the type of thing that keeps a song fresh in your ear. And I just think that all of the dynamism on this song, like it changes. You know, there's a little bit of that, that Lord lineage in here's the, you know, slow language verse. And then all of a sudden, this chorus is going to go super hard and you're just going to be switching up what you're listening

to all the time in these things. It's one of my favorite qualities to the record. And I just, think that doesn't happen so easily when you have X number of hours of studio time with someone and then they're going to get swapped out for a different producer, a different songwriting partner, and you're just shuffling through a bunch of people. There are benefits to that too, but I would at least imagine that if you're doing things that way, you can't wake up in three days and be like, oh, I have a cool idea for this part. Can we go back and work on that? And I don't No, like, I would love to hear more and more and more and more about the actual making of all of these these songs. But I just feel like you can hear that all over this record.

And it's awesome. I think they're incredible together. And they seem to really like doing that. And, you know, change is always necessary at some point. But they seem like they're in the zone. And I'm all for it. Also, he plays some incredible guitar. Is there anything you'd cut besides the grudge because you're a homicidal maniac who should be locked up to keep you from harming small children and farm animals?

You're so upset. Bodies and baby seals. I mean, what else do you want to stab? There's a line from Obsessed, which is one of the bonus tracks that I love, which is, I know you loved her. I know I'm butt hurt. And that's what you sound like right. defending your song. Not surprisingly, that's the same phrase

that Travis Kelsey used when he said that Taylor Swift wouldn't meet her at the concert. Just don't put that out there. A full dollar in the jar. What would you cut? You asked me if there was anything else that I would cut. I would also cut making the bed. Interesting.

You really sold out on these ballads on this album. You have invested yourself in the pillow fight, in the riot girlness. There's something about that part of this record that is resonating for you. And it's interesting to me because I understand why Ballot of a Homeschooled Girl is on this album. No, you wouldn't dare. You wouldn't fucking dare, Hubbard. It sets the tone.

I love, I'm not even sure this is about her situation so much as it is like, everyone in this generation what it feels like. I mean, the social suicide stuff is super cool. Every guy like is gay as a hilarious line. She just, you know, is so honestly communicating how she feels awkward. But I, like, is it weird that I, Lacey and homeschooled girl back to back just didn't get me super excited? Yeah.

Like, Lacey, listen. Lacey feels like a Billy Elish song Is it about Sabrina Carpenter Is it about Gracie Abrams? Is it about nobody? Is it about Taylor Swift? I mean, it has a lot of the like Billy Elish Barbie movie song

It has some Billy Elish when the parties are over. I'm more into Olivia's like spooky witchy voice than you are, I think. I don't know. This one just felt a little more derivative to me in a little bit. I mean, I love the line I despise my jealous eyes and how hard they fell for you. I love it. It's great. I'm not cutting Lacey.

Ballot of a homeschool girl for me is just not something that I go back and listen to. I'm also like a dad. Like this is not made for me and I get that. So I'm just telling you. Are you saying that nothing you ever do is tragic? That you're always on point that you've never embarrassed yourself in public, Nathan? How, like actually, how dare you? All that is true. I feel the way that you feel about me cutting grudge. That's fine. About you cutting this song. Well, look, I'm not cutting teenage dream because I do love it.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not done talking about a ballad of a homeschool girl. Okay. It got like, does it do anything for you how hard it goes at the end? Yeah. Like, that gets grungier than any other moment on this album. It feels a little bit performative to me in that. Like, when I see her doing this live, it's when I feel.

like she's at her least honest and most like projecting. There's honesty in performance sometimes. It is performance. I'm sure that Olivia, for instance... She's an actress, and I don't know that she acts this one very well. Oh, I think that's where I disagree. I think she acts it incredibly. She's exaggerating. I'm sure she's liked a straight man before. Once or twice. I know that that part is... I know there's humor in all of that. I just mean the general... Like Avril Levine, I believed. I think Olivia's,

Olivia is a little soft. I think, okay, you weren't trying to bring this. Yes. Mm-hmm. And that's why it's not, I mean, in terms of like, is that the specific sound

that Olivia is going to make her raison d'etre for like all of an album or all of a career? Of course not. Her what now? No. You speak in French now?

There's a great, what is it? And when he said something wrong, he just fly me to France. That's a great line. I don't think that she actually wants to make a grunge record. I do think that she has a lot of fun spending 20 seconds on the outro of a song. Coss playing grunge? Yeah.

And it's a song where I think that type of silliness and playfulness works. but I also have a very high bandwidth for that. So I agree, but I think it's on All-American Bitch. It's on bad idea, right? It's on getting back. In some ways, it's on love is embarrassing. It's almost on Pretty Isn't Pretty, which is Friday I'm in Love by the Cure.

But it's enough on this album is what I mean. And I like Ballad of Homestchool Girl. I just, I understand why it's there, because again, it sets the tone and it plugs, it hooks into what sounds like is grabbing you.

For me, it just was, I like lyrically the song. I just, the song itself didn't feel like I got to go run that one back. I'd so much rather, fast forward three songs

to get him back and play that 75 more times. And that's true, even though she is, I mean, do I hesitate to say, that she's wrapping some of these verses.

It is one of the most talky songs. Yes, you're right. I get it. Wrong guy. Searching how to start a conversation on a website. I talked to the talk. I swore was his type. Guess that he was making out with boys of the ball.

It just doesn't bring me back to it in the way that some other things do. But look, it's the fit. It's a track five, baby. So it's hard to, it's hard to eject. I think just for me, the back half of the album, contains so much truth and so it is so delightful

that I don't know I'm not sure how they went through the sequencing of this record I would have rather seen get him back in this slot this is why I love talking to you about this stuff especially when we have not gone over it

because you and I both absolutely love this album and had like diametrically opposed experiences listening to it where I think that the top it's not it's not like pure

top to bottom or anything like that but to me this album is front loaded I mean I guess getting back in love is embarrassing or pretty late yes they are aren't they hmm

you just don't love the ballets I think the opening three songs are awesome it's like holy crap who is this person so much so that I'm a little like the etherealness of Lacey has just just it doesn't grab me in the same way. And then I'm at Ballad a Homestchool Girl. I'm like, wow, okay, I got it.

I feel like I heard this a little bit in the first two songs. And then we get to making the bed and I'm like, hmm, this feels like Noah Khan and Harry Styles. And then I'm on logical. I'm like, oh my God, I'm so in love with the song. And then bang, get him back. And you're like, this album might win the Grammy for album of the year. Yeah, it might. And I still haven't heard the grudge or love is embarrassing. Or Pretty Isn't Pretty, which is a great fun song. or teenage dream where she basically says, hey, you know how hard it is to do this and how afraid I am that I'm not getting any better?

This is as good as it gets. Yeah, and it's sweet that Katie Perry has sort of been mentoring her. We didn't learn that until after the album came out or maybe I think they'd been seen together or whatever. But the fact that that was such a substantial relationship was, what did you say? Maybe Katie Perry's saying she's mentoring her.

Maybe this is Katie Perry tucking in the Olivia Rodriguez slipstream. Well, maybe a little bit, but I mean, she was quoted in the Rolling Stone article in a way that clearly like clearances had happened where there was some legitimacy to that. The last thing that I will say about Ballot of a Homestchool Girl is just that there was no chance that I wasn't going to love a song with the lyric. I made it weird. I made it worse. We've all been there. You said something that really interested me, which is that you mentioned the fact that this is track five. Lacey being track four,

it was not lost on me that track four on Sauer was one step forward, three steps back. They love me, want me, hate me, boy, I don't know, I don't understand. So if we are playing the, you know, who might this thing be about? I don't think that Olivia Easter eggs quite so obviously

as some other people we know, but there is a parallel of the song that originally interpolated New Year's Day. There's glitter on the floor after the party. Called you on the phone today. Was in the same album slot as Lacey on this record. I know the drama is so fun.

I think her... I just feel like her reactions in the press when asked this question time and time again lead me to believe that as much as I want one of these songs to be about Taylor Swift, I don't think either of them are. I don't. I know that's not fun.

I know that's like, womp, womp. So I disagree with all of that. I think she's afraid. I don't think she wanted to put anything in here. I think she wanted to cut it all out. I don't even think she wanted to grace her with the presence of the drama. I don't think she succeeded in doing that

if she was trying to do that. Again, I had the complete opposite experience listening to those songs. which was just, and like, look, I, to some extent, in a voyeuristic way where this is part of celebrity, it is fun for us to sit here and talk about this stuff. So I'm not denying that there is a piece that's sort of catty and dishy and interesting and fun in that way. This is Taylor and Carly territory for me. I would rather they be friends.

I would rather the salt, like, there's a piece of it that makes me sad because I just think they're both so talented. or also that sort of confuses me just because it doesn't seem like the it doesn't seem like the origin of the beef should be this meaningful although maybe just with the significance of how much Olivia is cared about Taylor

like that would be a factor I think we talked about that before it is just hard for me to hear the lyrics to really either of those songs now the Friday and May definitely has an alternate interpretation. But to me, the songs sound true. They sound authentically felt.

And they certainly work as songs that are about Taylor Swift. It's hard for me to hear these things and go, she doesn't want anybody to have the option to hear these things in that way. That's true. And she's been very clear about that. She doesn't want to screw up. up everybody else's interpretation. But I do think, you know, the porcelain skin stuff from Lacey, like it feels like she's singing about somebody younger, the bows in the hair.

Like it's somebody else. If you want to go to the grudge, okay. But I still think if you really dissect those lyrics, that that feels more like a relationship with a love interest more so than then I'm broken from what you did related to the songs. Because I think if that really was the case, she'd be saying different things in the press. She wouldn't be so directly honest on these songs and then passive-aggressively ducking it in the press. But the songs, they don't have the smoking gun

in the way that a Taylor song has a smoking gun. No. So I don't know that I agree with it because I think she can still have some plausible deniability. I'm not saying that I think they absolutely are about Taylor Swift. I have no idea. And in a lot of ways, I hope they aren't. But I do think it is undeniable that that is in the water stream

and that it is not possible to rule it out by what's in the songs. This is every Taylor Swift conspiracy theory you've ever tried to shoot down. But I'm going to let you have it. No, it's not. No, it's not. This is a little more legitimate than that. This is a thing. Okay.

Let's talk about lyrics Because You mentioned the puff pastry thing And I just Whether it's Taylor, whether it's whatever Skin like puff pastry Is playing on a loop in my head And I will think about it for the rest of my life

And not understand it Well, you aren't eating the right puff pastries then Is it before baking or after. Maybe she's got like her, he has terrible eczema. Right.

Like that doesn't sound, I just restarted using my retinal. Maybe Lacey is a leopard. And I feel like I have skin like puff pastry right now where it just wants to like flake off. Yeah. Doesn't seem great. Doesn't seem like something.

Like everything else in this song is like, you're made of angel dust. You're so like ethereal. And I'm like, I don't think skin like puff pastry really goes with those. but it is a haunting lyric. It is something that, like, there's just, there's a, a,

Philo-Doh level of layers and mystery to that. So I just needed to hear what your take was on it. Yeah, I'm with you. I agree that something's wrong. I think Lacey is a leper, and it has nothing to do with Taylor. Okay, now you've convinced me. I could buy the Sabrina Carpenter argument on that one, though.

I think there's some interesting pair of it. else. She does have great skin. And especially the Bardot reference. So. And the Boat-Bardorian card. And the bows. Okay.

All right. Maybe. Yeah. I think visually I could see that one. There's so many wonderful lyrics on this album that I actually zagged and went back to the grudge and the end of it, which is the absence of the lyrics. Because I think in that very end of that. song, they're in your head even though she's not singing them. And I thought that was, again,

one of the most powerful moments of the record. So for me, it was the ability to sing lyrics without actually saying them. Take strength to forgive. For me, was that? Because the rest of this record is just like lyrically brilliant. She is like a rapidly rising great American poet. There's no doubt. I know. I've said this like 16 different times. A great American poet, but also a great, like, A voice of a generation level comedian. Yeah. I felt like there were just, I knew that for this category,

I was going to choose something that I just think is laugh out loud, funny. And there are 50 different things that I could choose. But I went with the outro to Love is embarrassing where she's like going between the little ha ha ha ha has. But it's, I give up everything. I'm planning out my wedding with some guy I'm never marrying. It's just thrown in at the end. Right.

And it is like a thing that we all talk. Like, I really remember a lot of conversations with friends where we will use as shorthand, like, oh, like, I'm really planning the wedding on this one. And it's just so, like, I just really, I really feel seen by this 19 year old. I can tell. I can tell. It just means a lot to me. Thank you, Olivia. This really matters to you.

It's great. It could, again, it really could have been a lot of. things. Fly me to France was amazing. We talked about can't two people reconnect. I'm sensing some undertone. It's just so funny. Famefucker probably also deserves

a reference, but we talked about that. Fame fucker deserves a massive reference, yes. Fame fucker bleeding me dry like a goddamn vampire. This is a little bit more about how she does it, but the all the time I'm grateful all the time.

I'm grateful all the time. On All American Bitch, in that sort of like sweet, coral sing-songy voice, like, m'a. Excellent. Just excellent work. We have had so much to talk about. And I just really feel like on one talking to you about this that we have completely gone off script with our categories, which I think is beautiful, fun.

And it's been a wonderful roller coaster. But I just want to make sure that we're talking about everything that we promised each other we would hit. So we've done biggest song. We've done best song. We've talked about the collaborators. We've done what we'd cut. Very controversial. I skipped us forward to best lyric because I just wanted to talk about puff pastry. You were going to give us a peak Olivia and it had something to do with the iPhone campaign. Nathan, you have the floor. I think I said it. Listen, I was going to use the word fuck. And then she, because that's like peak Olivia, she just says it. It's incredible. She just just is so good at it. I think this getting back video is actually peak Olivia because it just

speaks to her as this multi-hyphenate creator that has permission from her fan base to be in an iPhone commercial. Most big world-breaking artists, even 10 years ago, would have been called a sell-out for doing this. But in this generation of creator, like, we've made it cool. And she's found a way to do that. So she's fully monetizing her brand. She's got permission to it and it is it's this awesome video completely shot on the iPhone 15 run out and buy it kids I actually need a new phone maybe I'll get that one sounds great um I went with the fact that that this girl who is one of our most famous twilight stands wrote a song called vampire like come on fair enough when she had Vogue in her in her house to do 73 questions

She had one of the Twilight books visible on a bookshelf. They didn't pull it out and talk about it, but you could just see that it was there. And obviously, the narrative works really well, where, you know, she's dating a sort of sceney club guy. So the only coming out at night is very effective. But lest we forget, this woman spent a lot of time at one point in her life thinking about whether she was team Edward or team Jacob. And I think that's still coming through to this day.

And I think it's beautiful. My girls are Team Edward all the way, just so you know. One of my dearest friends married a guy named Edward Cullen. And I tried so hard. So hard to get her to make their wedding hashtag, Team Edward. And she wouldn't do it. Just unbelievable behavior. So you keep a grudge?

No, because I don't have a song that I like to listen to about it. So I guess forgive and forget on that one. I got something for you. Is there an Easter egg in this album for you? Look at that synergy. So we talked about the Friday in May is the one that to me is the most like if we were doing the Taylor game

and searching through liner notes, that's the only one that really calls out. Here's a specific moment that you can try to sluth back and forward. But maybe even because, as you said, the plausible deniability thing, I think is important to her. It's funny that there are literally alternate explanations

you can come up with when you go back and try to do that sort of digging. The other thing, this is not, I don't know if this is quite an Easter egg, but have you called the Guts Hotline? No. So there's this phone number that's all over the iconography.

It's in the Get Em Back video a bunch of times. And it's just very funny because I did call it. And it's like, welcome to the Guts Hotline. and it's Olivia speaking. And it basically just says, like, we'll be back in September. I don't quite know why it exists, but it was funny. I had a good time spending 30 seconds placing that phone call. Consultation on guts.

We feel for your every little issue, and we promise to pay attention to things most people ignore. We're unavailable right now, but we'll see you at your next appointment on September 8th. If you need anything in the meantime, spill your guts on our text line or visit spill your guts.com. She's definitely Easter-raking. I mean, mine was that she put. that she put the album name in the brutal video. So, Oh my gosh.

Yeah, but by the way. I hadn't even realized that. Yeah, but do not Google this because if you Google anything with the words brutal guts and video in it, you're not going to like what you get. Okay. Thank you for telling me and any of our listeners who missed that Easter egg so that we don't have to do that and so that we can avoid that.

That's a good one. I'm into it. The police immediately show. up at your door if you Google that. As they should. All right. We talked about lyrics. Go ahead.

There's only one thing left to do, which is to assign this album a grade. You want me to go first? You can go first. I gave it an A. Yeah. It's incredible. It's like, it's the best thing I've heard in a long time. Yeah.

I agree. And it sounds like for not different reasons, because I like most of the songs that you like, just the way that you and I connect. with it is very different. And I think that in and of itself, given that neither of us are 19, I'm a little bit closer to 19 than you are. But the, this is, like, I guess the question that I have for you on this is it's going to go head to head with midnight. Did you just hit me with a who knows or I'll be in 20, 30 years? No, I hit you with a ridiculous bunch of bullshit because I'm way older than you. But I do have a daughter who's 19. Thanks for clarifying that. Nathan, people are really confused.

Potter who's 19. And it's very interesting to sort of come at this record from those two different places, right? But I do want to know. Like this album's going to go head to head up against midnights for album of the year. There are going to be some others in the category. And I will go on the record as saying, I did say in our One Direction, every single album series, that I did not think that Harry's House was going to win album of the year.

And it did. And that might have been because some other people split the vote. vote. We did like that album very much. We love this album. That was clear from the first moment, but what I wanted to ask you the whole pod is, how does this do with the voters going ahead to head to head with midnights? Man, it's really hard to, because that's where we're headed. Yeah. I mean, let's just be clear. This whole, whatever the, whatever the tension is, all this drama, maybe it gets broken between now and the Grammys, but that's where we are going to end up is Olivia versus Taylor. God, I'm a little scared to answer this question, but I'll just do it

anyway, drag me, whatever. I think this would win. Yeah, it's gonna. It's just, it's, it's fresher. I love Midnights. I love Midnights, I think even more than, like, I think it probably ranks. I love, I love a pop album, as we know. And I think there are special songs on, on Midnights. there is Taylor doesn't have the opportunity to surprise in the same way than someone who is

so much fresher on the scene can but there's just something that I found like exhilarating about listening to this where it doesn't

sound like anything other than her and I don't mean that in the sense of, oh, few, she, you know, beat the stealing songs allegations from Sauer because that was not front of mind to me at all. I just mean that we are in this very weird content space where it is hard to get something to the center of culture. It is hard to get massive amounts of people to dig their teeth into something when it's not Taylor Swift or Beyonce or Barbie, all things that are amazing, but also have a, like a multi-generational legacy of people

already being on board with them. And I don't know, maybe I was just so hungry for it that I'm seeing this fitting into that. But this just felt like an experience that I hadn't had listening to an album in a while. where you hear someone developing a sound and just like playing with all the tools in their toolkit and articulating a vision for themselves as an artist in a way that just like, first of all, slaps.

I mean, Jack White apparently told Olivia that her job is to write songs that she wants to hear on the radio and I want to hear the fuck out of these songs on the radio. But it also does feel just exciting and special in the way that she is sort of writing her own story and who she is as a person and as an artist in a way that, again, I feel very seen by this 19-year-old. Well, we're five days into the existence of this album in the public domain.

You and I both believe, for many of the same and some of the different reasons, that this is the voice of a generation. Let's see if that generation embraces it. I don't know if she, do I agree that she's, I think she's a voice. If there is... Yeah, she's a voice. Billy Eilish's a peer, there are others. Yeah.

But this is a voice of a generation. Let's see now whether this breaks through and grabs in the same way as you and I both expect it. This podcast is basically over. But I'm going to keep talking to you about one thing because there's just, I just really like talking about this album. And I have one more question before we go, which is how the fact that it is kind of a rock album fits into that. We talked about it a little bit before. But again, I'm like, part of me is like resistant to this being. a thing that matters just because, again, I don't, like, I don't think she spends that much time being

like, am I a pop star? Am I, like, am I making a rock record? Um, but there was a colonel of me, but thinking about what, what we were just talking about with, you know, how much is she in conversation with less like a Taylor, but someone like a Billy Eilish that makes me wonder a little bit about if she, not even purposefully, but if she's sort of skirting around the center of super shiny pop music, if that avoids some of the landmines and the challenges of being a pop star making,

making their second album and going through this period in life, anything? No? Yes, maybe. To me, I think you're right. I think what's fun about this record is that she's blending genres sort of effortlessly into a bunch of different moments and piecing them together in ways that they can be discovered from different ways. You can discover one of these songs on TikTok. You can listen to the entire song.

They are sort of like operatic ballads with different chapters in some ways. I think she is untethered from pop via this album. But like I'm on the board of Gibson guitar, like more people than ever playing guitars, it became a big thing in lockdown, and it has continued on and on and on. So like rock music is here. I don't think it's going anywhere.

And I think that actually, foundationally, having it sound different than coming out of the monocultural moment of Taylor Swift this summer matters, and it's part of what I think feels fresh. Like you sat and listened to Taylor Swift pop songs. They're not all pop songs,

but you listen to the Taylor Swift sort of pop-ish jack-mac sound for three hours and whatever it was, 15 minutes, sometimes three and a half hours. This feels like a different experience, and I think it's benefiting from that. I do think it's untethering for her. I think that's right. I need it to work through that, but I just don't think that's it. I also think that, like, there can be as many guitars as she can find on this planet on this album, and these are songs that work on Top 40 radio,

which sort of makes her a pop star in the reductive way that we think about it. So that's where I land. But it isn't interesting. Like, I don't know. Clearly it's gotten the wheels turning. I think she's more of a rapper than a pop star, Nora. Wow.

You think she's like Eminem? I do. You think that Eminem is Olivia Rodriguez's chief peer. I think we're going to end this podcast now because I have just gotten a flurry of text messages about our girl being out and about in quite the black dress at the VMAs. Any last words on guts before we go? By the way, that's another 25 in the swear jar, in the Taylor jar for me.

No, I'm broke. Let's end it while we can. All right. This has been every single album. As always, I'm Nora Frinziotti. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to the fabulous Kaya McMull. for production on this episode, and we'll see you soon.

I am so rooting against this Travis Kelsey, Taylor Swift thing. It's not real. It's not real. He and his brother's documentary premiered today. This is completely orchestrated by the two of them. There's no way she allowed somebody to shoot that shot and take it, unless if she did, she's such a dopey nerd. I mean, that's like not out of the question, but just the way. way that they're going about it. They were like joking about it on.

All right. Maybe this should be the pod. Do you want to come on the NFL show? This should be the hidden. This should be the hidden track of the pod is this fucking discussion because she is such a nerd. It's that tweet that I saw. It's like somebody's like, well, you know, he's handsome. He's unproblematic. He has his own money. That's why we know she's not talking to him. That's funny. That actually is funny. It's super funny.

It's super funny. But like, come on. They're not dating. Also, like, she's been in New York, like, every day. When is he in New York? Right. Never. He'll, like, he, like, he, if he's gotten her, if he'd gotten her a week earlier than he did,

then, like, he could conceivably. But they're at, like, the end of training camp. They have stuff every day. Also, no, she's not going to Missouri. Is there a plane? flight tracker on her? Like there is on E-L? There was.

Well, there was. But there was. But? And actually at one point, there was a very, very niche, dark web, Josh Allen rumor, because the plane must, like, it must be cheaper to stash it in Buffalo. Because it goes to Buffalo all the fucking time.

That might be where maintenance happens. Yeah, something like that. Because clearly it's like she's not on it. There was at one point. Why wasn't it a step? Why wasn't it like a digs rumor? Why did it have to be Josh Allen? That's a great question.

I mean, nobody turns the ball over like Josh Allen. So maybe. It's true. It's true. I don't know. But look, this can't be true. I just, I love him. It's great.

It's fine. But like if all it takes is going on a stupid podcast and. Yeah, no, I don't like... Phone number on a bracelet. Like, God. He's fine. I enjoy Travis Kelsey. Yes.

She can do better than Travis Kelsey. It's okay. Like, it's, it's okay. She should be doing better than Travis Kelsey. Like, this is not okay. Unless you count Calvin Harris, she has not really checked the box of total meathead. And she definitely hasn't checked the box of like,

you know, somewhat successful. American dopey athlete. Yeah, but like football, like, I just don't, I don't know. He's too, he's like too fratty. It's just, like, we can't. That's what I think. I think, but maybe she just decided,

I mean, if I'm going to date Maddie Healy, let me at least date, you know, somebody who doesn't change. Go all the way in the other direction. Yeah, let me date a guy who's weird for other reasons, but. But also, like, she, okay.

No, no, go ahead. She can't. This is the hidden track. She can't, she is recording this? I'm not recording it. She can't for the first time articulate clearly that she is indeed an Eagles fan like two months ago

and then date the non-Eagles and in fact, Chiefs. I mean, Jason, I think is married with children, but whatever. She's not dating Travis Kelsey. Also, both the page six report, and the Daily Mail thing that people are passing around. Quoted the bullshit thing.

This has not existed anywhere other than the bullshit thing and Des Mois, which is also bullshit. And unless you put him in a coffin and carry her into her place in New York, like, there's no way. There just isn't time. He's been working. Also, on their show, like, say they were canoodling. Okay. On their show last week. Yeah.

he like had a weird trucker mustache. Yeah. And Jason was like, how does Taylor Swift feel about the mustache? Right. And Travis was like, we're not going to talk about Taylor Swift, but I think she likes it. Which is like you can't. You don't say that. Like, right.

You don't say that if it's real. You say that if it's a bit so that people will watch your Amazon documentary. Annie wore a John Mirror shirt on the pub. Unbelievable. So this is not happening. It's not happening. But it would be, it would be objectively hilarious. She is like just chaotic of a date or enough.

Like when people are like, this isn't real, right? I'm like, never say never. Like she's done weird. Yeah, super weird. This is the Achilles heel always. It's like, it's like Ariana dating the SpongeBob guy. You know, it's like fuck. Like Pete Davidson is definitely.

in the arena. Why not like a tennis player? Or even just like if she could date some like boring business person. Like yeah. Just something a little bit more distinguished. Yeah. Travis Kelsey is a clown. He had a dating show.

Yeah. It's tough. It's tough. Anyway. Yeah. I'm releasing this all. This is going to. be a bonus episode.

This is fine. I mean, it's true. It is worthy of discussion. But like who is the, yeah, I mean, I'm thinking of like the Evan Spiegel

who married what's her name and they kept babies and it's great. Oh my God. He married Miranda Kerr? Yes. Miranda Kerr. Yes. Was it super problematic?

Yeah. Who isn't? I forgot about that. Yeah. But like Taylor ending up like in some, yeah, at zero bond with Elon Musk is not off the table. Oh my God. Take it off the table right now. No, she's not that stupid.

Well, how's that that much different than Travis Kelsey? It's extremely different. How? He's an national security threat. Wait, what? Both of you got so hyped over that that you spoke over. I said he's a national security threat. And I said one is attractive and one is not.

But he could like, he could turn off all the internet around her so that she could never be tracked. That would be like his love letter to her. Yeah, but that's like kidnap. That's like bribery or extortion or something. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure.

Yes, I agree with you that Taylor Swift could get kidnapped by Elon Musk. I don't know. Maybe she's like Miranda. Yeah, well, I know. She's not capable of her. random. I mean, it would have to be somebody who like operates the forklift in the warehouse where she stores 10 million

vinyl records. But it, otherwise, it is the very next most logical play for her is Meathead American athlete. It really is. What about Meathead European athlete? I mean,

I just wonder if she's tiring of the Brits after all this bullshit. I just wonder if she only likes the Brits. And that's an ergo the bullshit. In which case it's some soccer player for... Or like Formula One may have. Right, right.

Adam, some Italian like Formula One driver. Yeah, that's possible. I'm like projecting a little bit, but I would like that for her. Well, I would like it for her. Here's what I'd say. It would work a lot better with her schedule because she's going to be over in Europe all next summer. And so it does seem maybe,

you know who she's going to start dating is Mbabe, the Parisian soccer player, Killian Mbabe. He's 24 years old. Yeah. Fuck yeah, he is. That's what I'm talking about.

I mean, all we're trying to do now is combine DNA and make some super kids. So, give me kids. Killingembape and Taylor for three years, give me two kids, then she can go, you know, whatever.

She's not a racehorse. Neither of them are race horses, but like, I think the odds of her being able to sustain a healthy functioning relationship for a long period of time are lower than we all want to admit. Wait, then she should just gallivand around Europe and be single, which does not involve dating Travis Kelsey. Yeah, she should date the European Travis Kelsey.

Kelsey, whoever that is, some fucking rugby player from Wales with like cauliflower ears. That is who the European Travis Kelsey is, by the way. Yeah, yeah, with cauliflower fucking ears who weighs like 275 pounds, he can just absolutely destroy beers and who, you know, she can like take gummies with on the weekdays when she's in her London flat because it's the off season for the rugabogos. All right. We've found one we can all agree on, I think.