Every Single Album - 'Hit Me Hard and Soft' | Every Single Album: Billie Eilish

Episode Date: May 23, 2024

Nora and Nathan talk about the third studio album from Billie Eilish: 'Hit Me Hard and Soft.' They discuss how Eilish is displaying new vocal ranges in songs like 'The Greatest' and 'Birds of a Feather' (17:32), her continued collaboration with her brother Finneas and whether or not she might branch out in the future (45:14), and how many songs on this album are about her discomfort with celebrity as a young artist (56:03). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're a fan of the inner workings of Hollywood, then check out my podcast, The Town, on the Ringer Podcast Network. My name's Matt Bellany. I'm founding partner at Puck and the writer of the What I'm Hearing newsletter. And with my show, The Town, I bring you the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. Every week, we've got three short episodes featuring real Hollywood insiders to tell you what people in town are actually talking about. We'll cover everything from why your favorite show was canceled overnight. Which streamer is on the brink of collapse? And which executive is on the hot seat? Disney, Netflix, who's up, down, and who will never eat lunch in this town again?

Follow the town on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Pridziotti and I am joined, as always, by the one, the only, the fabulous. Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, I thought I'd give you a good intro because you have been traveling a lot and getting stuck in airports and made a lot of effort to be here for this pod and to be ready for it. So congratulations. You got an extra long intro containing the word fabulous. Hit me hard. Hit me soft. Thank you, Nora.

You're so welcome. And as Nathan just alluded to, we are here to talk about Billy Eilish. Really for the first time ever on this pod in like dedicated episode fashion. Though, of course, Billy has come up many times. Last Friday, we're recording this on a Monday with this episode to drop later this week. but her third album hit me hard and soft came out last Friday. It is her third album, which is sort of an interesting, you know, I was reading all the reviews and stuff and was sort of giggling to myself because this album is an interesting entry into Pop Girl Spring just from the perspective of how are these artists thinking about the album as a concept.

But the thing that made me giggle was that there are all of these references to the idea that the third album is like a really tricky thing to pull off for an artist, which I totally think is valid because it's, you know, you do your first album and then the second one is, can you follow it up? Right. And then the third, it's sort of like, can you shape shift? Can you find a new thing or something? Which all of that is totally valid.

I do think people also love to say that the sophomore album is really hard. Yes. And probably also that the fourth one is hard. And people like to say the whole thing is hard. Well, the first, like, no one says that about the first album, because the first album is hard to make, but we don't think about it that way because we, you know, people hear the ones that work.

But the thing about Billy is this is an artist who's been introduced to us not by album. Some of her biggest most stream songs were not on an original album, right? Ocean Eyes came out of nowhere as a single. The Barbie movie song, not on an album. Right. Yeah. And now with this album, she is really saying, I want to give you something that is an album as a story as a, I think, you know, she did a Rolling Stone cover story that I thought was really great that I'm definitely going to reference like many times in this episode.

But where it actually might have been Phineas who said this, but one of them referred to the collection of songs as like a musical family. And she talked about not doing singles because she didn't want anything to be out of, out of the rest of the album's context. So it is this sort of like narrative body of work in a way that is sort of novel for someone who broke on SoundCloud and with songs that, you know, even something like the Barbie song, right? Like we've heard all of these songs from her that are kind of individual snippets. And something that's interesting to me is what she's saying about kind of releasing. a whole 48 minutes or whatever this is

that's designed to be digestible altogether. And it is. How did you listen to this album? It is. I mean, I'm so glad that she did that. She was absolutely right. Because front to back, this is a journey that, to me, connects happier than ever and sort of whisks you intentionally in the opening track from where she's, she was to where this is now. It has a sort of closing chapter that

revisits the album and the song Blue. This album is meant to be listened front to back. I listened to it and just thought, man, long live the album. We're getting a lot of different artistic takes on what an album is in a time in which you don't actually

it doesn't have to be forced down your throat. And I love it. Some people, there's a lot of spaghetti being thrown against the wall and some noodles are sticking and some are falling to the floor. But we got a lot of pop artists right now trying to force us to rethink what we actually want from the concept of an album. I'm really hung up on the idea of spaghetti. Sorry.

Just like dripping down a wall. That was vivid for me. All right. Let's just dive in and start talking about this. Because of the no singles factor, I think this is a particularly interesting one to kind of try to define what is standing out to you and what the biggest hit from this record might be. Talk to me. It's lunch.

I can't find a single person who's listening to this album who isn't saying that it's lunch. And I'm not sure that it's my favorite song on the album, although I really love it. I just, the first line is I could eat that girl for lunch. I could eat that girl for lunch. She dances on my tongue. taste like she might be the one. This is Billy's queer anthem. And straight from the first line

to the gasps at the end, she just goes right at it. Okay, I was going to save this, but can we, let's talk about the gasps at the end. That breathing pattern is, and I say this as a compliment, it is my humps by the black-eyed piece.

I'm not, like, I'm not even the slightest bit kidding. It's like the, ah, Like, it has that rhythm to it in the way that she's breathing. Well, the song is an absolute bop. And it just, like, there is this honesty to this young woman that we've been hearing since she was writing songs as a girl, really. I mean, it is mind-blowing to think, Ocean Eyes, she was 13. She was 13 years old.

And that was part of the novelty of it. She's 22 right now. She's a baby. She's an absolute, like, babe in arms still right now. Yeah, I just think, like, the reference point for me is Taylor with Red. That's when she released, right, at 22. I just have to say, I kind of... My access to Billy, really...

I mean, I was from afar, a listener to the singles for sure. Ocean Eyes was just a smash. But I didn't really get into her as an artist until I saw the doc. And the documentary was frightening for me. Yeah. And I came away from that documentary worried about her. But I also, for me, it was some insight into the mind. of, you know, young women.

I have two of them as daughters. And I worried about whether she had the support around her to manage what it's like to be a huge star, but not just any huge star. I mean, the thing that I will come back to multiple times in this conversation, and having just referenced Taylor, maybe I'll use that. I mean, I think fans of Taylor want to be friends with Taylor Swift.

fans of Billy Eilish want to be Billy Eilish. And that is a burden that from that doc seems to weigh heavier than anything others who have, you know, stardom have to deal with. Because for a young woman who has mental health challenges, who has, you know, a journey for her own exploration of her sexuality, Doing that at 13, 15, 17, 19 years old under a spotlight so bright is an impossible calling, I think, Nora. And so to see it come through now, some of that, in the form of this album, which is a journey in a lot of ways, but then for her to be able to speak so directly and in language that doesn't sound like what you're getting, from artists who are 10 years older than she is in a way that doesn't sound like artists who are 10 years older. It just, it feels like the voice of a generation and it all comes through in lunch.

I think that's, you know, and it's funny to pull that out of one of the most upbeat and sort of light feeling songs on the album. But I think that's the right take. And I was, You know, in that Rolling Stone piece, she talked a lot about sort of her anxiety around being, like, tokenized, kind of. Whether it's as, you know, this young artist who swept the major awards at the Grammys and therefore was, like, thrust into this pantheon of what's she going to do, you know, the greatest, right, is a song title from this album. or as like a spokesperson for mental health or now as, you know, a spokesperson for being someone queer in popular culture and in the celebrity environment. And I think there are moments on this album where it's a little bit purposefully opaque, either what she's writing about or sort of if she's shifting identities and playing on,

Even on a song like the greatest, it feels like part of it can be about stardom and part of it can be about a relationship. And I think sometimes that's really exciting. That fluidity is really exciting. And then sometimes I think there are a couple songs that end up a little bit more sketchily rendered because of it. I don't want to...

I love this album. I don't want to bury the lead. I'm just sort of talking about where I think the spectrum is. What I think is interesting about Lunge, which is the hit to me. I don't know if I think it is the best, best song because there are some just absolute heavy hitters. I think it's my favorite song.

Huh. Is that she's being so honest. Like she's just, it is that Billy just unable to say anything other than exactly what she feels and means, which I think is a quality of hers that she's navigating. Right. Right? Like that she's realizing has some downsides and is maybe playing both sides of a little bit. But it's interesting. And I don't want to thrust any sort of requirement of her to speak in that voice because obviously there's real challenges with that. But she is in that voice on lunch. And it's just, I mean, she's the headlights. I'm the deer.

It like made me laugh so hard and it is just cheeky and fun. But it also, it says something. It says something. real. I think her superpower is that she's already earned your trust that what she says is from the center of her soul. Like there's no journey for a listener and I think it's because of her voice. There's zero journey to believe everything that she says. And in a lot of the other albums that we've talked about this spring, there is a little bit of a journey that has to be earned by the artist. Her superpower is it happens on note one. Yeah. No, and I think this is one of the, there's a bunch of songs where that comes through. To me, lunch is one of them. I think in a weird way, like the diner is also like that even though she's doing this like creepy billy embodiment of a stalker obsessive, like,

because it's not just, it's a trust in like you go there with her playfulness in the characters that she brings to songs too. And it manages to be real and a lot of fun and really, really catchy.

I expect to be hearing this song quite a bit this summer. I'm interested that you went to the diner because the diner to me stands out as the one song we'll talk about the diner later but that's to me stands out as the one song that's not

in her voice on this album and it's literally not in her voice shout out yeah but I think it's why it doesn't get a shout out on blue which sort of summarizes the record at the end but I man I felt the journey

track by track step by step of her sort of moving out of the last phase of her life of her own sort of sexuality, discovery, and then moving into relationships around that. And just like from front to back, man, this thing felt like a very tightly connected, purposeful, the sequence matters. And if you don't listen to all of it and finish with blue, you don't get it.

The diner to me actually stood out as the one song. And I don't want to give away the ending on some of our categories, but as the one song that you could remove from. this record and the rest of it still would stick together. Didn't make it any less fun though. Yeah. I'm not necessarily, I'm not talking about the just so that I'm not being opaque myself here.

I don't mean that she is telling the same story, right? Yeah. I think that there is a quality to her voice, not in terms of the vocal performance, but just the way that she describes things, the way that she paints a picture that feels very, very billy. And there's a cheekiness to that, which to me is a quality of hers that I really cherish

because she does paint in mostly dark tones. And she's incredibly adept at that. But I think the contrast and that little bit of like almost goofiness and playfulness. even when she's doing something either sexy and sultry or something creepy and weird and scary feels like something that either only she can do or she is one of a very, very, very small group of people

who can accomplish. So that's my connection between those two songs. But it's not related to the sort of story journey of the album. Do you want to talk a little bit about, like, you know, if you go from top to bottom, bottom, what parts of the story are crystallizing where? I guess I think that they're using, and I say they, because I think Phineas plays a big role in this as well. But there are these musical moments in a number of the songs, and lunch is actually

not one of them. Lunch and Birds of a Feather, to me, stand out as more sort of straight ahead jams. There are these musical moments across a number of these songs. Chihiro is one. Is that how you pronounce that? I think it is. Yes.

Is one where there are a couple of builds that sort of explode or the crazy transition that happens in La Mordamavi where suddenly it goes from like a Vegas lounge act with like familiar chord progressions

to a straight up EDM song and like the edible hits. She's like daft punk. yeah like there's a moment like at three and a half minutes in that song the edible kicks in and suddenly you're just like what is going on and it feels fresh and it's but all of those journeys to me i think they reflect the subject matter i think we're getting a lot of her own understanding of who she is as she grows up i think there's some relationship stuff that that trickles throughout this at least I certainly read a lot into the relationship that she had,

her ex-boyfriend with Jesse from the neighborhood, broke up with him, then Devin Lee Carlson dated Jesse, then they broke up, and then Billy and Devin have been seen out and about, and it feels like there's a little bit of a love triangle or a love rhombus that is grafted onto... You love a love rambus.

You love to bring up a love rambus. I love a love rambus that that's that is the backdrop for her own personal journey and I think the songs musically are journeys in their own way.

They start one way and they have moments where you just are whipsawed not in a not an alarming way but in a musically interesting way into something completely different and that happens on the greatest it happens on Chihiro

it happens on La Morde lavi De Mavi, it happens on Bitter'sweet for sure. It happens twice on Bitter Sweet. Yeah, yeah. And so I think there is a brilliance to the way in which the lyrical content of these songs is reflected in the music itself. But again, that said, I think lunch and birds of a feather are two anthems that can go in an arena or a stadium and she can choose where she wants to play at this point. and crush it, and they're straight ahead. And the only song that I think has a chance

of being bigger than lunch is birds of a feather, because that song is so awesome. I just, it is a hit. It sounds like a song that, like, Bruno Mars should have written, and I have to say... Yeah, early, it's like a voice to men song at first. She's like crooning. Yeah, it has a lot of Georgia.

Michael's Last Christmas. Just musically. And that is part of why I love it so much. Even on some of the vocal stuff she does in the outro, it sounds like that outro of Last Christmas. But that song crushes. I mean, first of all, I think one of the things that, I'm still sort of working through in some ways,

like, what exactly I think this album is about? Like, what is the journey of it? Like, how do the songs play off each other? I think there's so much to unpack there. There's one thing that when I listened to this album, I was just like, oh, holy shit. And that is that she sounds so good. Her singing is so good.

And I think that, I mean, Birds of Weather is not the only song where that really comes through, but it really comes through. You know, the part where I love you to the day that I die. There was a real risk. Yes. What was the real risk? I think there was a real risk that she was going to prove herself to be,

this is going to sound more derogatory than I mean it, but that she was a one-trick pony and that she can get up on stage like she did a Saturday Night Live and take that incredible voice and sing, have yourself a Merry Little Christmas. This is my second Christmas song reference in a podcast in May.

Let's go. What is this the Evermore episode? It could be because that is also a Christmas episode or album. But no, but like we're, Just the novelty of her voice on this album easily could have worn off. And again, the reason why I sit with this album and think it is absolutely remarkable is because she has stretched herself musically and vocally in ways that it sounds fresh.

It sounds of a different generation. She's howling in some cases. Yes, there's a delicacy in it. She's playing a character at the beginning of Lamour de Mavi. like it is a much more interesting and potent instrument than it was on either of her first two albums. It's just, it's precise, right? And you're, you know, I too do not mean one trick pony and as sort of damning of a way as maybe it sounds. But when when Billy broke, right, like she had this very clear.

kind of sonic identity and how she's saying is like, oh, she's like the whisper singer, right? Like she has this very clear idea. Right. And she still does that. She still has that in her bag. And it's cool. But it's not confined to the,

there was an innocence and a naivete and this like right on the border of girl and young womanness of Ocean Eyes that I think just connected. with people in some ways. There was a novelty there. And when you go back and listen to Ocean Eyes right now, her vocal tone and all of the characteristics of it

are really in a small band. Like she's not doing much. It's a really, the tone of it is just the sound is new and different, and that's what I think everybody connected with. But she's not working in the way that she does on almost every song on this record. I mean, it would be interesting to go back and listen to that

and maybe we can incorporate it into the episode but that kind of narrow band that she's working with on Ocean Eyes compare that to something like some of the climactic moments

in the greatest where she's just like wailing. Yes. It's like the end of November rain or something. It's that big. Yeah. She has that moment

where she says, man am I the greatest and she's going for it and then the song that's where the song transforms. And then all of a sudden it's like this stadium rock ballad. And it's like epic. Yeah.

And Billy Elish has always been someone that I would describe. And I think some of the sort of words in the word cloud are like, there's a very clear aesthetic. But I don't know that the word epic ever would have crossed my mind. Like that she's always been a little bit more about like interiority. And some of that is really cool, and I think really core to her and still very present on this. But I think the fact that she has become so willing to just let her voice as her voice not just be heard, but be heard when she is absolutely attacking things at a 10 is really cool. And it expands this sort of emotional palette, too. Yeah.

The greatest is interesting because it pulls in a couple of. of just totally different kinds of music that you know she listens to. She has talked openly about the artist, the Portuguese artist, Morrow, who just, you have to hear her with the two acoustic guitar guys that she plays with. Like, her voice is so fascinating. Her music is, it's just so moving. And Billy has been an advocate for her and spoken up about it. And I think the first half of the greatest is pretty deeply interconnected to time signature, the delicacy and some of the ways in which

the little runs that she makes against the back of the acoustic guitar. But then, as you said, the back part of this thing, I mean, it really feels to me like Guns and Roses November rain, which is like she's just, she's got these massively different crossing influences that have come through, but that she has studied

and that are influencing the way. way that she goes for it. She couldn't have sang that song, I don't think, at 15 or maybe even 17. And maybe she wouldn't have wanted to in some ways is the interesting thing. Like the thing that is that sort of on an emotional level just cuts through to me is in this album that I think is interrogating a lot of like how willing is she to put herself out there? Yeah. And how does she deal with being that person who who because she has the complete and utter

trust of her audience, everything she says is taken seriously. Everything she says is taken at face value. And I think you hear her negotiating the challenges of that a lot. And I think something interesting about the way she's singing is that her literal voice

is unleashed while she's having that conversation. with herself. I think it's very cool. You know, you said that and I just want to make this other point. Maybe it's already been made, but I just, when Taylor says, I want to jump off a very tall somethings, nobody's like, we need to check on Taylor. Everybody goes, oh, that's funny. It's cute. When Billy makes suicidal references, she has to worry. Like, it's dangerous. And that's some of the danger in her honesty that keeps you sort of hanging on how she's

communicating through this music for me. And I have found it interesting because I think when I listen to this album, I hear, I mostly do hear that honesty come through. And I wonder if there's a little bit of a self-protective or not self-productive mechanism where she has started to do the thing that Taylor has done of when she talks about the album in some ways talking about it in very personal terms. but also saying I have released myself from the need to be completely autobiographical or completely clear

about everything that I'm saying in all of these songs. The greatest is on my best song short list. Is it on yours as well? It is. Yeah, it's right there.

Again, Birds of a feather is a fucking jam. The greatest is terrific. I really love La Morda Mavi. Sam, that's on my list as well. As it builds, like, I adore it. I'm hearing from a lot of, like, teenage friends of daughters who are deeply into Billy,

who think Wildflower is incredible. They love Skinny. Do you still... They love Chihiro. They love lunch. Everybody loves lunch. How can he not love lunch? Yeah.

Let's talk a little bit about La Mour de la Vee, though, because I... In some ways, it's kind of like... It's almost a goofy song in some ways. I mean, I think there's such a maturity that I find kind of like awe-inspiring in how much humor she's able to get into the first few lines. I wish you the best for the rest of your life.

Felt sorry for you when I looked in your eyes. Like it's a very it's walking the line of being a bit and I think even Phineas some of the way that those synth sound it feels like he is playing them for a laugh in just how theater.

theatrical it is, like she is in character. And the song is even kind of in character. Because it gets to the point where she goes like, bum, bum, bum. And it's almost like it's sort of meta-aware of the kind of song it is. Where there's going to be that transition and there's going to be like a reveal and a punchline. And then she gets to delivering. that of the, but you were not mine. And then that's when the song transforms.

I told you a lie. I need to confess. I told you a lie when I said you were the love of my life. And the whole part, the first part of this song is her playing that character that sounds like a Vegas lounge act. It's clearly not her normal voice. And that's exactly what she was doing in this relationship, if it's to be believed. And then And wham! It hits you, and she goes into where she is now, which is this, right? If you want to dive into the personal life lore, it's that she is dating his ex-girlfriend now, having comforted her during the breakup. And there's that sort of outro where, want to know what I told her? With her hand on my shoulder, you were so mediocre and we're so glad it's over now. And that, it's over now. to me is one of the most powerful moments on the album. And I think it's, there was, there's a world in which doing this song where it gets overworked and it's, it takes itself a little too seriously.

And there's something about making it a little like a show tune that it's just, until it is very, very, very much not. It's like an EDM banger. Yeah. No, it's the lightest touch. I think it's so smart. It's funny in a way that doesn't take away from the fact that it's, it's real. It's talking about some sort of emotional stuff. A thing I need to ask you about this song, her voice does kind of get like heliumified, right?

Yeah. As the tempo is changing. As the edible hits. She's four gummed. he's in in that moment. I mean, it's not Bev, but it's Seve. It's Helium, Billy.

Helium Billy. It's Bealium. It's Bealium. There we go. I knew you would have something for that. Any love from you for Blue? Yeah, I really love Blue. I don't know exactly what to make of it.

I've heard some feedback from people who love it. I love it as a place in the album and the sort of recapping of... I mean, there's literally lyrics pulled from almost every song prior to it. And, yeah, I love Blue. I do. It sounds like that's on your list.

It's on my list, too. I think it's a cool testament to the idea of this album, like as an album, as a thing that you, I was going to say sit down and listen to. One thing that, and again, I'm forgetting if Phineas said this or Billy said this in that Rolling Stone piece, but one thing that I found very charming was when they were talking about the idea of we didn't want to do singles, we wanted everything to be a cohesive whole. I think it was Phineas, just said something like, I just love the experience of going, yes, I'm going to listen to this whole album while I make my dinner,

which is, I totally relate to that being just an incredibly exciting feeling. But it's also not so self-serious to imagine that the way that people listen to an album is to lock themselves in a dark room and meditate while they listen to 48 straight minutes of music. Right? Like, I just was like, ah, I like these kids. They're so, yes, cool. I'm not sure you can disconnect blue from Bittersweet. though.

Sure. They certainly flow into one another. I think there's a subtle hat tip to the, there might be a subtle hat tip here to the CSN song, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes. I am yours. You are mine. You are what you are.

Because that's what the play on words is on Bittersweet. It is a musical suite of a bunch of things that they just said, let's publish. that song starts out like a blurry picture or something coming at you on the road from far away and then as you get closer it sort of comes into focus but it is and it's almost like it's a bunch of vignettes mashed together it's like Billy's ADD and music or something

it was cool that they published it but then it flows. The second part of it is like a disco polka like that song is cool but that song is weird like I would love to read 3,000 words on just like everything that's going on there. Yeah, but so is sweet Judy Blue Eyes and then it goes into the song Blue. Same key. Like it just sort of flows right into it, which is, I think, blue, this mashup of two songs that, um, that were unreleased, that they just couldn't figure out how to get on the, on the last records.

I think one's called True Blue and the other Born Blue and that they sort of stole the two pieces. And that's why there's kind of two parts to Blue. I like how it ends the album. I love the little we think she's not sad. She reminds us. She's still sad. I think, again, as we're talking about this album as an album, I think the little outro, this is what I had for Peak Billy, but the outro where she says, but when can I hear the next one, is kind of, is fitting. But when can I hear the next one? Well, I think that, that's a, we're going to come back to that because I don't have it for the next, I have it, yeah. There's a lot of time.

about on that one. Okay. Oh, I'm so excited. Can you imagine if Taylor tried to create a song like this to end tortured poets? It would be 45 minutes long. She'd have to like harvest 31 songs. She would have to do the what direction better than words thing. Like every single word would have to be a snippet or a mention of a song.

Right. Right. So anyway, but I super into this song. I'm just not sure whether to think of it as a standalone thing or kind of a, you know, the cliff notes on the album or whatever, spark notes on the album. Yeah. No. And I think, look, if I have to choose one, man, I kind of be honest.

I guess I think the best, I'm really tempted to say that lunch is still, I think, the best song. I guess I think I give it to the greatest. I just think that that's such a, the sort of degree of difficulty of really going for it there, I feel like deserves a nod. I'm not going to put blue up against those songs.

I will say that the first part of it, that very sort of dreamy section before it turns into kind of like a sad lullaby, I think that first part is like, that's just a pretty chunk of music. That's just a nice sounding chunk of song. So I'm a fan and then I like the outro.

So I wanted to really shout it out in this category. And what a... Chihiro, I think, seems to be the second most stream song at the moment. Yeah. Like, Phineas loves the bass. He loves the European dance bass. It feels a little bit like the lobby of the W. Hotel at 5 a.m. Yeah.

For parts. But there's those moments that explode that I love. So this is really, when I say that there are a couple moments on this album that I find just like a little bit fuzzily rendered, Chihiro is one of those songs for me. I think it's cool. And I, I'm interested in what it's, I mean, it's sort of a story of like post-relationship anxiety and, and sad, like not regret, but sadness. Like sadness you weren't able to keep a closeness with someone even if you absolutely were not able to do that.

and we're never going to be able to. I think that's a point of view that I think I'm interested in Billy Elish writing from. It's just something about it that I feel like I can't access. And I do get a little bit of the W. Hotel Lobby.

I think that's an apt description. And maybe that's where it kind of locks me off. But yeah, it's people seem to really dig it. I think just behind lunch. I think it's a tribute to a character from the movie Spirited Away. Yes. Because the director, right?

Miyazaki has, I think, affected a lot of her sort of creative direction. And so maybe it's a little bit less autobiographical. But I'm into it. I mean, it does feel... Let me put it another way. She's selling the house dance influence here. It feels fresh. And you listen to Skinny and you go,

okay, this feels like a carryover a bit from the dock and happier than ever. you know, there's that great incredible dichotomy between the softness of her voice and the realness of her lyrics. You know, her weight loss is not a proxy for happiness. Is this whole album going to be this way? And then it's like, bang, it moves you right into lunch. Bang into Chihiro, it's like, whoa, this is something I haven't heard before. I've heard Phineas lean into the bass,

but I haven't heard this much sort of dance influence in what she creates. And then you're off. Birds of the Feather is, pop, wildflower is acoustic, and then from there, the greatest is this anthem, you know, that shifts in the middle. You get that with Lamor de Mavi. So there's just, I don't know, the musical journey there gets spun up as soon as you get in, out of skinny, really. I also think if I am not, I'm really out of my depth in the Miyazaki world. And I bet there are some people who listen to this podcast who could probably enlighten us on what the parallels are. But that

character, in my very limited knowledge, that's a character that goes on a sort of transformative journey of kind of exiting childhood, but then returning and adapting to the environment around her and changing and then sort of reflecting on what those changes mean. And I think there's a lot of what Billy is saying about her own experience of fame and being. And, you know, becoming the artist that she is that maybe mirrors some of that. I would not claim to be able to draw those parallel lines, but I would be curious to hear from anyone who has a little bit more insight into that. But I wonder if it's like sort of not autobiographical,

but also sort of autobiographical because I wonder if that's a character that she sort of identifies with. Well, what's powering this album in a lot of ways is who I think is, definitely her most important collaborator, and that's Phineas, of course. I can't believe it's just the two of them doing this. We see a million albums that have 24 people and tons of engineers and all kinds of different players. And it's a brother and sister from Highland Park, Los Angeles, basically in a basement making this fucking sonically awesome record. And I just, this guy, I know that he worked on the Selena Gomez song, I know that he's worked with Camia Cabo. We got to get him out there producing like Jack Antonoff right now and just see what this man has.

Was he just put on this earth to be the facilitator for Billy? Or is there more that he would do with other artists that would sound different than what we're getting here? Because again, across just within this album, but also comparing this album to her other two, this is progress and evolution and different. It sounds fresh to me. It sounds current. It just, I love what Phineas is doing.

And I'm fascinated to see if he takes this in a meaningful way outside of Billy and if there's a standalone artistry there. I mean, I think he was nominated for his solo album for Best New Artist. But as a producer, I'm really interested to see whether there is similar gas that he can light under other artists where he might be able to not replicate because this is his sister for crying out loud, but create, you know, empower, really,

other artists in the way that he empowers Billy. It's an incredible combination and partnership. I don't want to break it up. Let's not break it up. So him working outside more means they got to break up. Don't break up. But I want to, I want to, In part, I just want to separate him to see what would they do on their own for crying out loud?

Yeah, I mean, they clearly have, like, it's, it makes me almost so nervous because they, they seem to have such like a beautiful partnership. Symbiosis, maybe. Yeah. And, and, and even though that documentary about her made me sad in a lot of ways, it was, it was, it was, there were elements of that. that we're pretty bleak, like a sort of pretty bleak look at the life of someone who means so much to so many people. And there's something very sad about that. But there is also something very, you know, she lives in such a close-knit family environment. And the people around her who love her do have something that's very, seems so meaningful and special. And he's obviously a part of that

even beyond just support because of their musical partnership. And I, too, have the impulse of like, let's get, let's see. Like, let's just see what would happen. Let's just like sprinkle a little bit of Phineas dust here and over there. And who would you want to, want to hear him produce for? I don't know. Anybody. I mean, I did, I don't dare say that out loud. But I, I just, I think what he's done here with her, what they've done together is fascinating. And I want to pull them apart a little bit and see, to your point, I want to see the ingredients all on a standalone basis because the recipe is awesome.

I just don't know what spice is which and what seasoning is which and what ingredient is which. So Phineas, it was so clearly the answer in here that I counted on you to bring him up. And therefore, I'm going to use the space to talk about... Zig-zag. Haley Bieber's secondary quotes about Billy in that Rolling Stone cover story. Wait, what?

Okay. I just needed to, I needed, I needed like three minutes of podcast just to address this. Let's go. The floor is yours. Talk to me about newly pregnant Haley Bieber. I know, the Beaver baby. As I think people know, you know, you, when artists or celebrities do like big cover stories, there's some amount of negotiation of like, okay, who would you like to have speak on your behalf?

Who else can we reach out to? Who do you think could be secondary interviews for a piece that an artist or a celebrity is giving their time to a reporter for? And often, you know, of course you want someone who's going to say nice things. But often the choices are sort of like there's something to it about how you're presenting yourself. And that's not just in terms of what the person is going to say, but who the person is. like who you're sort of articulating as as your friends or people who are sort of in the zone. And for Billy, it was Zoe Kravitz and Haley Bieber. Wife of her all-time biggest hero, probably one of the cutest videos ever is when she met him at Coachella.

Like a truly magical piece of video content, yes. and whose wife she is apparently now very close with. And there's a story about how she's upset because she broke a mug, how Billy was upset because she broke a mug at home. And the mug had been given to her by Haley Bieber. And then Haley Bieber is introduced in the story, offers absolutely no commentary on the mug or anything that you had to. And she just opens by saying,

I wouldn't be surprised if Billy's soul has been here a lot of times. And by here I think she means like planet or. that's really how I feel about her. She's established herself as a once-in-a-generation artist and that's something that's so special and so rare. I can't imagine that I'm not going

to be rocking out to Billy Still when I'm in my 50s and 60s. That's my girl, which is very nice and very good, like, great secondary quote. Good job, Haley Bieber. I just like really loved Haley Bieber popping in

and being like, Billy's soul has been on this earth many, many times. And then just like heading out. She has one more quote in the piece, which is actually interesting because she, you know, she sort of likens

Billy's experience to Justin's and just sort of identifies being so young in those moments as a particularly challenging experience. And I think she, you know, she probably has some insight into that and something to say about it. But I just was like, Haley Bieber, what are you doing here?

And I wanted to talk to you about it. Okay. I see my time. Okay. Well, there she is. It's nice of her to drop in. Maybe she's, you know, pushing road. Maybe she knew that the baby news was going to come out.

And so it was a tit for tat to help with some story stuff. Or maybe she and Billy are just that close. No, I totally buy it. And I enjoyed hearing from her. I thought it was a good choice. But I thought Zoe Kravitz was a good choice, too. And they both seemed willing. to identify that Billy's life is not normal,

which obviously it isn't. But, you know, think about how someone like Taylor presents herself. Obviously, that's changed over time. And I think especially recently has gotten to a place where she just sort of could not possibly claim normalcy. But think about how much pressure is often on these women to say, no, no, don't worry. I'm just like you.

Or at least in some ways, I'm just like you. And it felt intentional to me that both of the people who are sort of speaking on her behalf. And I think one of the things that, you know, Zoe was talking about just sort of the experience of being out in public as someone with Billy's profile. And she just was like, I don't think people understand. And I don't think that they can understand. Which is simultaneously such an obvious thing. like, duh, of course. But also, I think that's a thing

that a lot of famous people feel like is saying the quiet part out loud. So they seemed like good friends. And it just seemed, it seemed nice and real, which feels appropriate for Billy Eilish. And also just a little bit of Haley Bieber wackiness being like

her soul has been here many a time. Thank you, Haley. Nora. You look like stunned right now. I can only go so far down a Haley-Biebibber rabbit hole, and then I'm down a Haley-Bieber hole, and then I'm at the edge. I'm at the edge of the forest of my ability. We love to be at the edge of the forest.

Well, I suppose at the edge of the forest, we have to enter into what would we cut territory. Yeah. And speaking of fan base and all of it in the flow of this album, I think you could remove the diner, and it would be fine. We need to talk about the fact, did you call the number? that she whispers at the end? I did not call it. I have not called it.

Well, I called it. I should call it. What happened? So when you call it, you get the same voicemail that my dumb donkey son has on his phone where you call and it picks up and it's,

hello? Wait, I can't hear you what? Hello? And you're talking at them? You're like, hey, no, wait. Oh, is it me? Is it, I think it's what? And then he's like,

Oh, sorry, you leave my message. So it's that sort of roast. Hello. Hello. Oh, let me call you back. That gets me every time. So there you go. That's what it is.

But also, it is a way to join her fan community, which you can sort of subscribe to text message updates and everything else. So it is a little commercial that she's whispering that number at the end. And you can receive text message. and become part of her fan club, basically. Okay, that's fun. Yeah, it is fun. I'm not cutting the diner.

I would never cut the diner. And I also think that there's a part of the narrative that she's creating on this album that has so much to do, again, with her discomfort with celebrity. Yeah, I mean, this is her stand. Yeah. Yeah.

Stan. Yeah, Slim. I wrote you what you still ain't calling. I left myself, my friend. Pager and my home phone at the bottom. Yeah, totally. And plus it's just like groovy. And I like creepy Billy.

Sometimes I like creepy Billy as much, if not more, than sort of like really dark, Billy. I mean, this is dark in a way. But I just... It's pretty dark. Yeah, it's dark as opposed to sad, I guess, is the distinction that I'm drawing.

Right, right. And that, I just think it's such a, it's like such an infectious song in that way and it makes you feel like a total creep yourself. I don't know. It's the brighter side of goth. Yeah. Goth, but with an upside. So what are you going to cut?

Look, I... You're going to cut skinny? People say I'll get just because I got skinny. You're going to cut you here. Those are the two songs that are contenders. for me. And I guess I think I get a little bit more from Chihiro, but I'm reluctant to cut skinny because I do think that it, I do think it's really effective as a curtain raiser. I think it's really effective in how it just sort of introduces the album. And so I suppose from the perspective

of you feeling like you can kind of tell the story of this album without the diner, which I feel differently about, even though it's not a first-person narrative in that way, I feel it's essential to the overall story because it hits at the fame stuff, which I do think is a core part of the thesis and the story. Whereas Chihiro for me, and again, maybe that's my lack of familiarity with the character and with the references. That I get, I just, it's just sort of like the premise is a little fuzzy, is a little fuzzier. So, I suppose my final answer is Jihiro. But I do think overall,

I think they already made the cuts. Like I don't want to cut things. No, I don't either. Yeah, that's, that's, it's been a while since I've had a album that we've talked about where I'm like, none of these things bother me. I'm not in the mood to trim any of this.

And I think the flow is great. I think the sequence is right. I think there's purpose to it all. I think there is an interconnected story between it all that then culminates and finishes with blue. So, okay, well, we don't disagree on that. I just thought the diner could be clipped, but you've almost talked me into it now.

No, who's going to do? I just don't know what else I just don't know what else I'd go to. And I like Chihiro enough. And skinny, for me, again, I think you need to make the transition. Well, so now it's time to get to notable Easter egg slash conspiracy corner. And we have a couple categories left,

but it sounds like there's some cross-pollination here between us. So why don't you tell me what you find to be the most notable Easter egg Conspirate slash Conspiracy Corner and then we'll dive in. Well, so can I actually kick it to you to go first on this? Because I think it'll all set me up. Fine. I mean, I think the Easter egg, I'm ready. Bring it.

The Easter egg and Conspiracy Corner for me is also the next album app. appetizer. And that is the end of blue when you hear her say, but when can I hear the next one? And the massive rumor in the fan base right now is there is a second album. And it is coming. And that it's basically a double album. One is revolving as hit me hard and soft around the color blue, the other being red. And because I think the colors of the characters in the video game, Ilomilo or whatever it's called, which there's a song that she's got called that. The characters there are red and blue. And so that's what I think it is.

I think everybody's sort of waiting for her to drop. She also posted a clip the other day of a song that's not on one of these, not on this album. So she's sending out some signals that there's more yet to come. Okay. So this is actually not the direction that I was going in. And do you feel like there's, do you feel like there's hints buried in there

of like what that would sound like, what that would be, what that would cover? I guess I don't. And that's generally what next album appetizer is about, isn't it? It's like, I mean, like the previous album. I don't have a, I didn't have a good answer for that either. I don't know where, where they're going from here.

I mean, I think we, we heard a little bit of the, sound on hit me hard and soft on maybe overheated on the last album on happier than ever there was a little bit of this i'm not sure what we've got because this is such a compilation of different musical styles and i mean it's such a just color burst of things i mean her synesthesia must go bonkers when she thinks about and listens to this album because so much of it has to be triggering that in her. I just think there's a decent chance there's more music out there if the conspiracy part of the fan base is to be believed. And she's dropped a few hints that something's

out there. That's so interesting. And it would be so interesting to hear what that was because I think the reason that next album appetizer felt challenging for me is that one of the things that's cool about Billy and I think interesting to think about is there are songs throughout her discography and certainly on this album and I think the most on this album where for someone who was sort of originally heralded and deservingly so,

as this artist who is sort of like defining a new mode for, you know, darker, a darker kind of pop star and was taking threads of, you know, Lana and Lord, but then also something totally new in her own. And creating these modes that were really new and really hers, but also really exciting and worked so well for young people. And there is this sort of like groundbreaking quality to that. There's also a quality to a lot of her songs that I find like incredibly, I guess,

traditional. Like, the moments in which she sounds like she's singing a show tune and where she has that ability to do the Barbie song. To do the James Bond song where it's not like for someone who can be almost sort of avant-garde in moments, she can also write and perform two Oscar winners that you're happy to hear at every awards show ever. And there's something about that set of skills that I think she's really using on this album, like on La Mour de la Vie, on the greatest, even towards the end of wildflower, in Birds of a Feather, like that whole middle section really feels like her singing taps into the way that she is often singing on those like big awards show stages,

at least in moments, because the songs do shift so much that sometimes you're not getting that, but sometimes you certainly are. And then there's the part of the album where so many of these songs feel like, or literally do,

like they want to become, they want to, like, hit the dance floor in a weird way. Like, they want to have that moment where they become that. And I wonder if, like, I wonder if that's Phineas' impulse, maybe. Like maybe that's something

that's coming from him because there's part of me that listened to this and went like, does she want to make like a weird dance record kind of? And then maybe I wonder

if that's actually not if maybe Phineas wants to make a weird dance record. So I felt very sort of torn between those two poles and wondering how to how to parse which member of this team

was kind of leading the charge with which one. So I guess we'll have to just say that we're very interested to find out. The thing that I was going to throw out there as an Easter egg is that Wallflower does lyrically read as, sorry, to say Wallflower. I was doing a podcast about, I did a podcast about Bridgeton earlier and I said the word Wallflower like 20 times. You're cheating on me with Bridgeton? I am. That also means that this is the second podcast of my day

where I've spent a fair amount of time talking about oral sex. So, you know. Well, great. I've got something for you in peak Philly. It's going to be another time. Wildflower.

Which tells the story of, you know, having a relationship, having some kind of relationship with an X's X. And also of having known that person before, the relationship and, you know,

the love rompice, as you will, there is a little bit of an Easter egg to Devonley Carlson because she has a phone case company called Wildflower Cases. So let the record reflect that Billy's doing Easter eggs too. That's it.

And that's, I think, a theme that in a situation ship that percolates through a ton of this record. And I think that was a meaningful part of her awakening that in my situation led to Peak Billy. And it sounds like you read that Rolling Stone thing

backwards and forwards. And so to me, Peak Billy is that quote where I've been in love with girls from my whole life, but I just didn't understand until last year I realized, finish the quote, Nora. I really don't have it in front of me. And I don't want to paraphrase it incorrectly. It was something like, I want a vagina on my face.

My face in a... Yes. Yes. And then she says... Poor powers do, yeah. No, but, but that's fantastic in and of itself. But it's the line that follows that makes the whole thing, Peak Billy. Then she says, I was never planning on talking about my sexuality ever in a million years. But the quote I'm going to give you coming right out of the Gates is first I could eat that girl for lunch on the record. And then first quote in a story about this next chapter of Billy, I realized I wanted my face. Way to go, Billy. There's also, I mean, there's a whole chunk of that, that article where she's talking about masturbating. And there's another quote that's something like, like, jerkin, it's great, man. Yeah. Everyone

should be, yeah, something, I mean, yeah. It's so good. She's just like, she's, she's a good time. That's a good peak billy selection. I think that's actually probably the canon peak billy selection. Yeah, I'm too afraid to say the line because the story just came out that chat GPT4 stole Scarlett Johansson's voice. The CEO Sam Altman reached out to her to try to get her to do it because of the movie her

and she didn't want to do it. And then they published this. voice sky, which sounds exactly like Scarlett Johansson, and she had to hire lawyers to get him to take it down. And so the point is that AI is going to steal everybody's voice. You don't want to say I want a face full vagina. I do not want to give them any more inputs than I already do on this podcast to turn me into any more of a caricature than I already am. Speaking of which, what's the best lyric? It's I could eat that girl for lunch. I think that's the best lyric on the album. I mean, I like,

Honestly. Yeah, it is. It just is. Even from, I could eat that girl for lunch is great. I also frankly think you need a seat all volunteer. Yeah, it's good. It's just 10 out of 10. It's good.

She's direct, again, as you say, sometimes in a dangerous way, and there's real danger there. What's great to help? It's time to grade this thing. Yeah. I gave it an A minus. Really? Tell me why. And when you say tell me why, I get the sense of the question there is like, why is it an A minus rather than an A? Because this is a really good album.

Why is it an A minus instead of a B plus? Why is it an A minus instead of a B plus is very easy to me? Because it's really fucking good. Because as a cohesive whole, this is an incredibly rendered album. It's moving. It's exciting in a lot of spots. It's the way the songs unfold is, I think, like, really expert and has something, in a lot of cases, not every single case, but has something to say that I just think it's powerful coming from Billy. And I think lunch is a bop. I don't know if I have an answer for you why it's not an A beyond just like a, just like a vibe that there is part of me. and it's been out for a few days.

We haven't had that much time with it. There's part of me that's still trying to synthesize, like, exactly what this is about. Like, exactly what... She's taking you on a journey of these life experiences that she's had over the last couple of years that have led her to this desire to kind of, like, rediscover the self that she was.

And yes, okay, yes, that is well. And I don't... I get... I hear every element of that in parts. And I think it's really interesting, and I'm here for it, and it's engaging material to me to hear Billy Elish sort of sing her teeth into. There's something that's just like a little bit opaque to me about parts of it. And I wonder if that is coming through in those moments where she feels a little

bit like sometimes it's scary the way that I put myself out there. And now, look, this is still the person who is giving quotes, like the quotes that she's giving. And I don't know if that's just she can't help herself. That's who she is. And that's how she talks to people. There's a part of that story where she calls the reporter back and goes, I think I said way too much. And like overtalked and overshared. And I, you know, I want to pull back. That's a premise of this podcast. I mean, everybody does it. And so, and I, I don't know.

I guess, like, the thing that I'm working through here is my discomfort with asking her to not protect herself in that way because she has every right to. And, in fact, based on what it sounds like she's going through, she should. A song like lunch. A song like the greatest. There's something so sharp about what she's saying. And I don't hear it. on every song in quite as sharp relief. Now, basically, the vast majority of the songs here, I think,

have something in the production and then the music and in the singing that still makes them special. There's something about the point of view where it's not quite as sharply articulated, top to bottom. And so I suppose that's the thing that's preventing me from going just like A, A, A, A, A. but man, I think this is strong. You know, the Grammys are going to be a bloodbath. And I'm not saying I think this is going to win. I think that award is seriously Beyonce's to lose,

but is a damn good album. Well, I don't think she wants or cares about the Grammy at this point. And I think the coolest thing that she's done so far this spring is let everybody else get out of the way. let everybody else shoot their firework up into the sky and then come in with what to me feels pretty close to a grand finale. I mean, this is the woman who was the youngest ever winner.

Carly Ray Jeeps in Eresher. All four categories at the Grammys, all four major categories at the Grammys. She was the first person born in the 21st century to win an Academy Award. She has now two. She's the youngest ever to win two. It seemed like maybe

from the outside, before I heard this album, you know, she won song of the year just at this past Grammy's with the Barbie song. We keep calling it the Barbie song. It's called what was I made for. And I told you it was going to win

and you thought to do a leap song should win. That's right. The Barbie song is Dance the Night by Julie. well what was I made for was song of the year and there was a part of me that just wondered are we through the the novelty will it ever wear off will the novelty of this voice and the story of this precocious young woman is it going to wear off and is this the record that's going to wear off and over the last couple of months in the industry I've heard this building buzz about this album. And the Billy

Irish record is so fucking good. You can't believe it. It's going to blow your mind. And that created in my own head, I think, a bias against it. Because I was like, oh, all these, this is, I'm hearing this from the record label people. They're just trying to talk it up. So I actually came into this with a lot of skepticism. I came into this album expecting to not like it. I came in this album expecting to think, this sounds like a lot of the same stuff. The shine is

off and you know there's a little bit more hype than sexes. That's funny that you felt that way when you ride so hard for what was I made for. Yeah, I love the song. I just felt like if I get more what would I made for it's going to detract from the song that I love. And, you know, a number of early songs that I think are terrific, you know, seeming a crown. Like all of that stuff I think is really great. But I feel like a full concert full of that and you'd be like all right she just she does one thing

she does it really well but she does one thing and it is three days in I am stunned at this album I it is inspiring it is electric in moments

it is terribly sad in others it is it just is interesting through and through every moment of it it's not too short it doesn't feel too long. There's a lyrical through line and a thematic through line for me in her writing.

I believe her every step of the way. Phineas is making music that doesn't sound like things other people are making right now. It's not a revolutionary, oh my God, this is like a radio head album that just dropped or something that's like 10 million people

are going to point to and say that changed music. But I do think there is a generation of artists who are going to point to Billy Eilish as being a generational artist. And I think that this album locks it down in a way that some people would have buzzed that without an album like this or this particular album, that, again, there might be a little fade in the star. And there is nothing about this record that says anything other than we have on our hands, Billy Eilish pirate

Baird O'Connell is a generational artist with a generational name and a generational brother supporting her and that she's an icon and I just, I think this album is an A for me.

I'm going to spend more time with it. But I was stunned listening to this record from the time it came out until right now. I feel like we should have, it should be like, there should be balloons or fireworks or something that pops off when something gets a day. Very cool.

Yeah, you should hear for me that I, what I will come to understand over the next week or two is how much of my going in bias affects the way that I feel about the record. My level of, you know, satisfaction in listening because it overcame that bias. There may be, again, a bias on that bias, right? A filter bias. But I think, I think, there you go. But I think this is I think this is really good.

I think this is really fucking good. And that those whispers weren't just people talking their own book. But I think it matters. And I think it's going to influence a lot of pop music that we're going to hear going forward. This is an album that is very, very hard to throw rocks at. Well, there you have it. Nathan. I said that you were fabulous and you were absolutely.

fabulous. What a joy to talk to you about Billy Elish. That is our show. That's Billy Elish. Hit Me Hard and Soft. Everybody go listen to it. This has been every single album. As always, I'm Nora Pinciotti. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you so much to China. Our apologies to Ariana Grande. I'm so sorry. We really will get there. It's going to happen. Pop Girl's Spring comes fast and furious and we're doing the best that we can. But we will be back next week to talk about Ariana Grande. and everyone has that to look forward to. You cut me off to talk about Ariana in the middle of my giving just so many thanks to the fabulous Kayne MacMolland for producing this episode.

We will in fact be back to talk about Ariana. So we'll talk to you then.