Every Single Album - 'Lost Weekend' | Every Single Album: Phoebe Bridgers

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

After a six-year hiatus from solo music, Phoebe Bridgers is back with her third studio album, 'Lost Weekend.' Nora and Nathan talk about the raw and honest themes explored on this album, including mortality and fame (1:00); the who's who of the indie music scene that Bridgers pulled in to help her make this record (39:58); and why this album is in the running for their favorite new release of the year (54:10). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan HubbardProducer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Princiotti, and I am joined for a surprise in-person podcast by my friend Nathan Hubbard. Hi, Nathan. I'm looking at you face-to-face. You did not know we were doing this until... I had no idea. An hour ago? That's generous.

Yeah. Even like I would say 25 minutes ago or so. Shout out to the crew. I got a call from Nathan. I'm in town. Can I come into the studio? And here we are. It's been a lot because.

I've been listening to this Phoebe Bridgers record nonstop. And what kind of emotional headspace did that put you in? Well, before we go there, can you tell the people about the text that I sent you and Kaya yesterday? Sure. I sent you a picture that I so badly wanted to tweet or post and I was like, people are going going to think it's too sketchy. Okay.

Well, we'll get to that part in a second. The picture that you texted to me and Kaya, as you've, been doing, we're amidst the great Nathan Hubbard tour of the Northeast. Okay, fine. You were in New Hampshire. Yes. You are now in New York. And as you made your way down from New England to New York, I take it that you made a pit stop in Watch Hill, Rhode Island.

No, I did not. I went to Fisher's Island. Oh. Yes. And for an amazing golf thing. Oh, I didn't even know. Of course you didn't because I didn't tell you. I just sent you a picture of Holiday House.

Which is in Watch Hill, Rhode Island, which is why I assumed you were there. But it did. So you sent this photo and it's of, you know, holiday house sitting quietly on that beach. From the distance. From the distance. To be clear. Well, but so what's interesting about it is that it, I did clock that your vantage point on it wasn't the normal vantage point where you see it. This is why I want to talk about it.

Okay. Because we're on this golf hole. I'm just, I'm here to play golf. It's this beautiful course. Yeah. Every hole is on the ocean. Like, that's a rare thing. And we get up there and the guy I'm with like goes, see that over there?

I was like, yeah, see, he can see on the point. Like, yeah, that house. It's like, he looks at me. I'm like, what? He's like, that's a holiday house. And I was like, holy shit. And the main reason I was like, holy shit is it's close to a lot of things. There's no way she could have done a wedding there.

There are beeping lighthouses. there are people, there are houses, you can see it from Fisher's Island, New York. There is no chance that wedding was going to happen there. I don't understand how she can even go there anymore. You'd never been there before. No? You'd never been near there before.

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, which is like, of course, very normal, but I, like, New England person have, you've seen Holiday House? Yes, and I've been to, like, I've been to the Ocean House, which is the hotel that is right next door. There's a lot around it. Yes. How does she live there?

Right. So, no, like, totally take your point on the wedding. It remains wild that she's had like six or seven Fourth of July parties there. It's crazy. Like, there are people all in that sound. There are, there's no way she has any privacy there. You can see the rooms from Fisher's Island, which is a long ways away. But some jackass with a high-powered telescope in a camera could absolutely, like, it's paparazzi Central. Yeah, I mean, I've went to, I've been around there for two weddings. And literally, like, if you have brunch at the Ocean House, which is the hotel right next door, which is a very popular wedding venue in the place where there was like the first rumor was that they were going to do it there, they were buying out of the rooms. If you're sitting on the porch, you can, you can look there. And you do always kind of see that, you know, there's always a lot of windows blocked off.

There's always a lot of stuff in the... There needs to be. It's just crazy to me. Like, we were talking about how the security was the thing that probably was the first priority. I was privacy, but also security. But, like, it cost $33 to go round trip on the ferry from New London, Connecticut to Fisher's Island, New York. And once you're there, it's a free-for-fucking-all. So you and I could have gone there with, like, drones and been, like, hovering over the wedding.

There's no way she could do it there. Also, like, I know that you were, I now understand that you were looking at this house from Fisher's Island. That house literally abuts the public path to the beach. It's crazy that she bought it. Like, literally it is, it is public path hedge Taylor Swift property. Like, why? She can't, there's no way she's going to keep it for that much longer. Maybe it matters that much.

I'm not. I disagree with that. Like, I think about, like, that white party. Ruben's house in the Hamptons or something. She could buy one of those. I don't think she wants to have that house at this point. I think she likes the history of it. I think she likes the romance.

I mean, she wrote a song about it. Yeah. And you know what? Here's what I will say. When you sent that photo and I was looking at it and I was like, it really is. You can just see that house. But then my second thought was,

man, that's a cool house. It is a cool house. It's so moody and it's like, it's surrounded by the ocean. It's just big rocks. Like, I get it. Yeah. The reason that I thought that was so interesting is because Taylor Swift has not posted a picture of her own wedding, but she has posted about Phoebe Bridgers' Lost Weekend.

It's like, when are we coming around with us? When are we going to take this, get this plane in for a landing? Yes, indeed. She has posted about Phoebe Bridgers' album Lost Weekend on her Instagram. Touchdown. Touchdown. And I have been listening to this album nonstop. Here we go, Nora.

Let's do it. We have been waiting for this in some capacity since we had our 2006 predictions. Yeah. Where it just, the vibe was, it's got to be time for Phoebe. But she let everybody put their stuff out. Here's Harry. Here's Olivia. Here's Ariana.

Role model, if you want to go to the week before me, by all means. Gracie, there you go, because here I come. And the thing, the other thing about Taylor that she said, post-punisher six years ago, was Phoebe Bridgers is the bar. And as crazy as it is at 32 years old, to me, Phoebe Bridgers, this is her third album.

Yeah. By the time Taylor was 32, which she had 85 albums out, I don't know. But we haven't had this. onslaught of create. It's not totally fair because of the Boy Genius stuff. Sure. But it's still, this is not a deep and rich

catalog. And as we talk about all the time on this show, the second album, you just try to survive after a big first one. The third one is where you really start to learn who this human being is. That was the conversation that we talked about with Gracie. And that, I think, is why this was so

anticipated because she came off this arena tour with Boy Genius. She has been somewhat reclusive. There has been relationship stuff. And so my anticipation for this album has been all time high since the start of the year. And surely since she announced it.

Yeah. Well, and it is she isn't interesting. It's sort of interesting to try to quantify like how much has she done in this in this six year absence, right? Because it feels like she is

much more of a household name now than she was six years ago. And to your point, that's not without doing anything. She's done lots of things and she won Grammys with Boygenius and toured and been very active. But to go six years between your second and third solo records and actually to have in that span beyond the fact that she's lived a lot of life and had a lot of experiences,

personally and outside of her own celebrity. And we'll get to that to go from being kind of an indie fave or like a person who speaks to the pop girls who really like a folkier side or the boy genius fan. Like to be a little bit more niche. And then to become someone who goes to the Met Gala and who has relationships that are, if not placed

and like overtly in the public eye are sort of thirsted after by tabloids and like just sort of have that um trajectory as an artist and as a celebrity it's just not like I can't think of that many analogous artists just in terms of their arc

but part of the reason she disappeared for so long and why this took so long I think was the nature of that celebrity like she's deeply uncomfortable with it. And on this album, she tells us about that in a few places about how the anxiety

still sometimes takes over. Governor's Waltz and some other things. But like... Even like, even the sound of the album, I think... Because it's like,

like, I feel like a lot of her music has had this, it has this kind of tension and juxtaposition that's really cool between her voice, which is really captivating, but it's sort of timid.

It kind of trembles. It's a little wispy. And then she crafts these musical packages that can be very big. And they're very kind of like, they explode and the songs go on and they explode even more. And they get bigger and bigger and more vast.

There's, I think there's more, and there's tons of that here. Like I think that is a Phoebe Bridger's signature. And she's totally in her bag. But I think there's a little bit more, you know, even starting with a song like the outside that opens the album. Where it feels a little

like she's sort of clutching it a little bit more tightly. Like it feels a little smaller. It's sort of introspective. And I think that's really interesting. Like it makes it feel really cohesive. It almost feel like there are a lot of times listening to this album where I felt like I was listening to, you know, a soundtrack to a movie that I, I hadn't seen the movie, but it was a score.

And so there's something that feels like almost more contained than I've heard her before. Interesting. I mean, this is an album about grief. It's about love. It's about, I mean, above, like, it's about disassociation. Can we take a step back and like zero in on what you are saying. Like, yes, it is, her father died. Yeah. They had a very complicated relationship. That is on display throughout the course of this album.

Yes. She had one very high profile relationship. That ended. She's now in another. I'm not saying that that's like the entire spectrum of human experience and emotion, but like it's, she's contending with a lot here. It is a lot to take on.

It's a big... And that's layered on an already sad girl. Who sort of has... She just love her. Yeah. She's love her so much. But there... Look, I think it was fair to ask a question post-Punisher

because it was such a COVID-based album and post the sort of cultish um, reception of boy genius where everybody just sort of threw in their lot I had a lot of questions coming in on this album like I wanted it to be great but she

how was she gonna perform because a lot had been put on her shoulders as this when Taylor Swift says you're the bar that's a pretty big statement and she really only had two albums worth of stuff and

she is nothing if not on but it's hard to do that, I think, as you continue to grow and evolve as a writer. And the album rollout campaign, to me, was like an interesting signal. Like, zero interviews. Yeah. Small shows in weird-ass places like Roswell, New Mexico. She's done one thing where she did... The college radio thing.

Yeah, she did the college radio thing where she recorded all these snippets about, like, what the songs are about to her, and they aired on college radio stations. which is very cool, but it's not doing a Rolling Stone profile. No, right. And it's been, she has kept distance. And that's been something that's been different than the Charlie X, X, X, X, rollout, for example, in which she did a million interviews. Totally.

And really tried to get everyone in the room with her possible with their camera out. And Phoebe literally played these shows and made people lock their phones in a bag. Yeah. I was reading something about one show where this is totally an aside, but where she, early on, she needed to check the set list and she pulled her phone out to check the set list and she was like, ha ha ha ha ha, ha, I still have my phone. Good. It was very funny.

But it's, to me, it's representative of what this album is, which it's almost that it's, as you just said, she's gone through the spectrum of human emotion over the last six years. It's a lot. and there's everything on here from maybe a little Gracie Shade to a voicemail from her father that sounds sweet and endearing after five or six songs

of tearing the shit out of him in some ways, right? And so it's a very open, completely filleted, honest. It is as honest an album as I've heard in years and that to me

is probably why she's keeping a little bit of distance, albeit she did, the roller blading around the rink with 200 fans in Riverside or something, California. Like she's only letting you get so close and forcing you to get close to her through songs that, boy, do you know it feels like, and this is the genius of her songwriting, it feels like you know Phoebe Bridgers, you know me, and I'll never forgive you for that. And that to me is, it's my favorite lyric.

It's the line on this album that is not just to her dad or Paul Meskell or Bobby, depending on how you want to look at that Bo Burnham, depending on how you want to look at that. By the way, that reveal crazy to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had no idea. None of us. None of us knew. None of us knew.

We don't call him Bobby Burnham, but we do now. We do now. Yeah. I have some questions for you. That name is particularly clear. to your heart in some way. So I'm interested to know if you've been walking around the house screaming, Bobby. But it is that part.

Like there is some of that that is directed at the fan base, maybe intentionally, maybe some consciously, that I think for her to reemerge, and again, she talks about a reemergence on this album, but is not easy, and it is unfathomably difficult given how intense the subject matter of pretty much every song on this album is, except Lost Parade, which is an interlude, and I can't wait to hear whether you hear it or hate it.

Yeah, I also think it's like a really, it's so strong lyrically. I think it's so strong in so many different regards. But I think one thing that I think is wonderful about this album and is also just sort of a refreshing example for us is she writes in this way, where, you know, yes, we know what these songs are about. And in a lot of cases, it's very obvious. Lyrically, she's a little bit more, it comes a little bit more in like vignettes, and you sort of switch,

you go from one place to another. And I think there's something, you know, particularly for an album that has a lot of backstory, it has a fair bit of known backstory, it has quite a bit of unknown backstory. And like there are moments where she really shares a new piece of information on here. Like I was supposed to get married, but I called it off. That is, that's information I didn't have that she chooses to.

Kind of the lore. It was kind of the lore, but like it's different to hear her say it, right? But in general, I feel like she can accomplish all that while writing in a way that's a little bit less. literal and a little bit less, I'm going to tell you this story from beginning to end. And I think therefore, like, it's almost a little easier to take in the hardest subject matter sometimes, although I, like, there are a few songs on here where I just was like, Jesus. Really? In a good way, but just in a like, whoa.

It's heavy. It's really heavy. It's really, really heavy. Like, I got in my feelings for the first 24 hours because of this record. Like, it punched me in the mouth a little bit. I was leaving vacate. It's always the saddest day of the year when you meet your vacate. I didn't get this.

I got to just like the sads. Just like, oh, God, all right, I got to go back into real. And then this is an album that is in part about what real life is actually like. Yeah. And that is so, I mean, yes, she's somewhat metaphorical, but it's so direct. from song to song about what it's like to be alive. And the, even in the most celebratory moments of Bobby, there's still this twinge of sadness.

And even at the end of the album, like, you know, I won't ever let you love me and I won't ever let you forget. Not yet anyway. Like there's, she's, there's so many qualifiers. And it just, it is, it is an emotional thing that I think it's, the thing that strikes me so much in, thinking about this album is we have talked about albums that we're supposed to get at our heartstrings. The Gracie album was she, you know, we talk, I say it all the time. Like, I think she is this like

Rosetta Stone for how 20-something speak. There is nothing on the Gracie album. And I say this, there's stuff on the Gracie album, I love, as we talked about, mini bar forever. But like, this is just a different level of songwriting for me. And it's not just the lyrical content, because as you said, There are vignettes inside each of these songs. There are moments where if you separated them out, and if she made this a 36-song album, you would believe it because you don't totally understand how these things piece together.

And in fact, there are parts of songs where it feels like she's got long instrumental codas at the end of songs just to let you recover before she comes next with something that's going to punch you in the throat again. I mean, we're like, panorama, she doesn't sing until a minute and 45 seconds have passed in the song. A song that interpolates Jake Minch's twice song, which I just saw, Paul Meskell said this was his favorite song. If you're drinking, I'm drinking.

So, like, she is, it's scattered. And it's the, if you're drinking, I'm drinking. Yeah. And the metaphor of like if we're both, it's like eating pasta from the other sides, but drinking from a straw on opposite sides. And that a relationship that can't succeed. Woof. Like that is so on the nose. She knows everybody's going to find that TikTok.

Everybody's going to see that Paul said that. It is, there's no debate about who that song is. And it's almost like in that first whatever minute and a half, she's getting ready to, again, just come with a knockout punch. She's getting ready for it. she is also making you work for it a little bit. Yeah. Like there is, I think, in the, in the no phones at the concerts, in the, unless you're listening to this on your college radio station, which case great, but also if you're not and you want

to have this information, you're going to have to sort of dig it up for yourself. Come find me. Come find me. And come find me people who really want to and are invested and are sort of, you know, not to, use phraseology from the Bachelor franchise, but are there for the right reasons. She's forcing you to be present with this album.

Yeah. And I I mean, the Lost Boys single choice is one of the most I mean, it makes sense. It is like, in hindsight, it's going to, I'm going to feel about the way I feel about me. Oh, interesting. I actually like it a lot better in the context.

of the album. I do too, but as a single choice, I think it is probably, it might be my least favorite song on the album. And I almost wonder if, first of all, it was sent out there because it just was a bridge between old Phoebe and new Phoebe. And even in that song, it feels like the horns at the end are playing, are mimicking the part at the end of the end. I know the end from the last record. but like I don't know I just felt like the choice to do that maybe was just to ease us back into Phoebe

but everything else on this album feels different from that song other than her saying come find me and that is the vibe that I get like she's sort of calling all she's like the siren calling people but as you say you're going to have to work for it and then when you're exhausted I'm going to give you

a slight little bit of time to recover with some what is now becoming like almost trademark Phoebe-esque, like, strings that go to half-tones and minor things and then come back and sort of like that journey of all the visuals, like the Spotify canvases on each of the songs are that way, too. They sort of mirror a lot of what happens sonically. This thing is a journey. What would your lead single have been? I think I would have gone with I Can't Wait. But I understand why they didn't do that. Because there isn't something on here.

You could have gone with Haunted. You could have gone with Bobby. You could have gone. I think Governor's Wallets doesn't quite work. I think Governor's Waltz doesn't quite work. Yeah. Let's see how long we can go without talking. Watch me pretending to sleep.

In a weird way, I think she could have gone with Liberty. She could have. Yeah, I think you're right. And it might have been, I mean, I think the song is gorgeous. It is fun. It's not quite as, we're going to talk about Bobby, don't you worry. I think that might be, I hear your point and I agree that there are still these little moments of, you know, I'd kill my friends of it and like, these little moments of tension or, I still think that's probably the most like, joyful song that she has ever produced. And that would have been an interesting, like,

Phoebe Bridgers lead single for this album, Now I Sleep in Your Shirts, You Live in My House. Yeah. It would have been an interesting, like, It would have been a bit of a, I don't know that you can go straight from there to dead dad. No, and it's why as we talk about, although, man, there's a lot of death all over this album. I don't want to die. Bobby, don't die before me.

He's dead. He's not coming back. Could you possibly blame her? The skeleton costume is still being worn 24-7 literally and metaphorically. But yet Liberty Tree is another Bobby Bow song, right? It's got about the Liberty Tree Mall in Danvers. Yeah. It mimics, there's a section where it seems to be mimicking Grace Land 2 from Punisher.

And she's done that before with like me and my dog, right, and led her to an old poet where she's sort of mirrored songs. And it felt like she did that again, she did that in Lost Boys 2 here. So there are these little Easter eggs and crumbs that she's doing all over the thing. The main point for me is, and I think the reason that I love this album so much is there isn't a single. It's not meant to be a single. It's supposed to start with her disassociating on a vocoder, singing, you know, crying in a suit and tie, but you should see the other guy.

And then ending with this like bird and a dog thing that she has visited before on, she's used that metaphor on Moon Song. She's used that metaphor on I Know the End, which is like the dog brings you the bird thinking it's bringing you the gift. It's sweet, but it's kind of gross. like a dog with a bird at your door

and when I call you come home a bird in your tears he never made it a day in a shirt he's not coming back as a bird and you sort of reject it almost, but you accept it. Like it's a metaphor that she uses a lot to talk about her dad. And it's very, like it, from start to finish, you have to go on that journey and everything in between

to hear about what she's been through to understand what is a bit of release at the end of that album and her now, I think, letting go both of Paul, both of her father and moving forward, mostly with Bobby. I mean, even like the beginning of the outside of crying in a suit and tie, but you should see the other guy. Like, it took me like nine listens of that to realize that that's genuinely a very good joke. Like, that's a very good set up punchline writing construction of a joke.

Right. Crying in a suit and tie. But you should say the other guy. the emotional punch is in such a different register. Like, you'd never laugh. But it, like, and that's why I'm like, she is the bar. I don't, I don't know anybody else who's writing like that. One more time, for old time's sake, I'll watch him get carried away.

It's like, damn. Yeah. And even like the way that the, yeah, because it's like, it's about this sort of disassociation. And that's a good example of where I'm not saying that, again, I'm not saying you can't tell what it's about, but she, quite obviously you can. But she starts and you're in a vignette

from a funeral. And then she's at a show. She's performing. And so I just found it really satisfying to be in a lyrical world that is a little bit less attached to this is the song about this. Yeah.

Because even as she would say it, It's a song about disassociation. It's a song about like that weird state of mind and her own feeling of going to that place and what it means to have experienced certain key moments in her life from it. And it's more about that than it is about specific events and she's sort of weaving things together.

I found that nice. The image of her dad being carried away at presumably a funeral procession. then Ohio carried me away in the sort of crowd surfing and in one she's being sort of ascended up, maybe worshipped and deified, questioning what happened to her father. You're still not sure at the end of this.

You'd assume he was a demon based on some of the things that she says here. I found her bleeding by the sink and presumably referring to domestic violence situation. But then... I mean, and then the line after that, But when you said sorry, you were looking at me. Like that, I think that was one of the lyrics where I was like, I actually need it. I need a quick break.

Really? Just, just, I'll be back in a second. There's something about that that was really. Yeah. It's just one of those lines where there is a whole world in that. But when you said sorry, you were looking. Right? Because there's the relationship between her father and her mother, but also her father and her. And what does it mean that, you know, maybe he's lacking a certain, he's lacking some, even within all of the awful things.

There's a kernel of empathy that's going towards her, but it's not going towards her mother. And then she's like, it's a complicated song, but that one took me out. Yeah. It's an intense song. And the voicemail is the thing that brings you sort of back to, wait a minute. Like I had to go back and listen through to the album again after I heard the voicemail because he comes across as it's just a very sweet, loving voicemail. And there are multiple sides to people. And there are multiple feelings, as she said, like, I wasn't too young to understand. I just didn't think it was so bad.

And it wasn't in a way. And now there's nothing. Like she just, in so many ways, she's sort of contradicting herself across this record. Well, she, I mean, there's a, there's a moment on that song on still standing. Emotionally, I mean. Where she says, I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but it's basically like sometimes I wish you weren't dead, but not today. Yeah. The way that she, when she got to that song doing the college radio interview, she just said this song is about my dad who I miss very,

much. Yeah. It's like it's very she's just standing with a lot of I don't believe that they are actually contradictions or to the extent that they are contradictions. They're just the inherent contradictions of life and relationships. And she's standing, I think, two feet down with all of that. Yeah. Still standing is that song, I think. Yeah. Or sometimes I want you back, but not today. Yeah. Yeah. Again, that that song took me out. Well, I don't think there's a hit. I don't think it's really even fair to say is their biggest song. I mean, let's just contextualize this. This is going to be her biggest album release. She's going to do 125,000-ish kind of units, and that's, I don't know, it's less, it's a little over a third of what Ariana did. It's more than what, what we've seen

from a number of other artists that we've reviewed. Gracie was, what, like 75? Yeah, yeah. So it's sort of like 1.5x. Charlie was in that area. Gracie was a little, this is a little bit more comparable. But it's, I mean, listen, we don't even need to quote role model numbers, but it's a big release. It's a pretty big debut. Roll model, by the way, role model in interview magazine the other day, paired with Lena Dunham, which if there is anything in the world that would make me feel insecure about my own reaction, just, I was just like, what does, what, what does, what does, what is Lena Dunham seeing here that I am not seeing. I'd love to find out someday. Yeah, it's going to, look, it's going to, Gracie, I think, did something like 124,000 equivalents. Okay. And that was good

enough for a number one. It sounds like cat's eyes going to beat Phoebe this week, which is interesting. But, but I think for someone who is supposed to be indie, this is bigger than that. And more interestingly, it feels like 99 out of 100 reviews of this album are like glowing. I have not heard, I have not read a lot of highly critical reviews of this yet. I mean, there's a few Taylor fans who are, I don't know, they can a few. Well, actually, it's not, it's not really Taylor. It's, it's, here's what it is. There's people who don't like Bo Burnham. Why? I don't know. I don't know. But they're like, why do I have to listen these songs about Berman.

But that's what I wanted to ask. And listen, I'm asking this question. I'm asking this question as somebody who loves Muna. Okay? Like, I'm... That is one of the funniest reasons to not be into an album I've ever heard. This is a skill issue. Like, you don't need to be able to, like, get it up for somebody's boyfriend to enjoy a song about that.

Well, I agree with you. But my point stemmed from, I think those are the only people who don't like this album so far. Okay. Yeah. And so it is a universally, from a critical standpoint, praised piece of art. It's just so specific. Like, what did Bo Burnham ever do to you?

He made inside. I think it's the best piece of video content of the decade. Like, what are we talking about? That said, or at least it captured a moment unlike almost any other. So, I don't know. All I'm telling you is Bo Burnham took a few strays on the internet. I'm like pretty online. I'm just like, what?

Those are the only few people who don't seem to love this album. And what I'm asking is just like, does that, does it feel to you as it does to me and my algorithm that there is a massive swell of support that is going to push this woman into like the upper echelon of American songwriter stuff after album number three? Yeah, I think so. Particularly because like think of the point you made earlier about the third album often being sort of. definitive in a way of who an artist is in a kind of lasting sense. And yeah, it's just such a strong entry that I think that's right. I listened to it when it came out after midnight on the East Coast. And I admittedly was on vacation and had made my family at dinner, my giant family at dinner,

and I'd had, I don't know, I'd had a glass or two of wine. You know, like, again, like a... Okay. Taylor Swift at the VMA's kind of glass of wine. Taylor Swift at the VMA's kind of wine. Like, we're having a good time. Yeah. We're not out of control.

And I listened to it, and I kept waiting. I have to be honest, like I'm embarrassed about this. I kept waiting for something that was going to hit me like Scott Street or something that was going to hit me like Garden Saw. and those are my two favorite songs from the first two albums. And nothing did in the first, I don't know, 25, 30 minutes. And I was like, fuck, it's like one of the morning. I got to go to sleep.

So I went to sleep. And then I woke up the next day. And that is when I just started to process the whole album. And I will also say, I can't wait is my favorite song on this album. And that doesn't mean that it's, yeah, it is. And it's buried. It's not buried, but not unlike. I mean, it's third from the end.

Yeah, and there's a lot, Garden Song is late. Like, there's, it is not unlike her. She has no fear of putting some of those things towards the end. And that said, that's the wrong way to think about this album, because once you get into the cinematic universe of what this thing is, it just unlocks so much of the vulnerability. And you can, then it is her delivery and the softness of the voice, except when it's intense.

like as above. Yeah. The dynamics of the both the music and the symphonic nature, as you talked about sort of the cinematic nature of a lot of the music, that's when it really just struck me

and yanked me in right by the heart through the chest and I've been listening to it nonstop. I really have. Yeah. Get your tickets now for the dog stars. It's no surprise how fast civilization can disappear.

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Margaret Quali. Okay, tough guy. And Guy Pearce. Arm up. The Dog Stars, directed by Ridley Scott. In theaters, August 28th. Get tickets now. Can we go back for just one more touch point to the question of

kind of what this means. for her, what this means for her in terms of scope. Like, what do you, what do you think the, do you think this album is sort of a launch pad for anything? Is it just sort of like cementing Phoebe Bridgers as a big, big star? And not, something, someone who is bigger than we typically associate with artists who are primarily in like folk and indie spaces. Yeah.

Like I don't, I mean, after this would she, I know it's this sort of particular thing. Let's say there was another ERA's tour. Right. Do you think that she would open? No. I think, yeah, I agree. I think it's, I think that's done. She can play stadium.

Yeah. She can. I don't know if that's what she's going to end up going out and doing because this touring plan has been different and she did the low dollar ticket at MSG. She's not letting people bring their phones in. She's going to do something different. She has, and this is the juxtaposition for me, Charlie X-X is cool, but there was a lot of time during that album launch campaign of her really trying to tell you she's cool, even though the Phoebe thing, she just like, it's embedded in her. It's just like a visceral thing. And she's gone so counterculture. There's no video. There's no in your face stuff. It's just, it's what everybody loves about Phoebe, but it's...

Well, and it's funny because it's like she used to be so... Such a digital native. Yeah. Like, I miss at Trader Joe. I do too. But I get why she's not a poster anymore. She's out, though. But most of her contemporaries have not gone this direction.

Yes. Except Taylor Swift post-wedding, I guess. But she's like... Wait, hold on. Sorry. Pause. did you see one but less importantly. Did you see the photo of Taylor and George Daniel?

Yes. Is that real? I think it's real. Somebody tell us if we're getting poo craved, but I think it was real. Yeah. Not necessarily talking to each other, but like in a conversation circle together. I was surprised to see that take place. I was really quite... I don't think it's a holy war.

Yeah, whatever. I just wanted to see if you'd seen that. Much more importantly, have you seen the photo of Sabrina Carpenter, Phoebe, and Jack? Yes. Yes. Where they're all like the most how your email finds me as photograph I've ever seen. Jack is chewing on a toothpick. Seems to have been the efficient because he's holding what looked like two Vow books and a program book. Or a book that had a reading in it or something.

And then Sabrina is just like. and kill somebody. Or she's doing the That's So Raven, like zoom in thing with her eyes. Yeah. None of them happy to see the camera. No. Phoebe's super not happy. It's like, what did you guys think was going to happen at this wedding? If I ruled the world, that would be the biggest meme. Well, I think it's going to be. I think it's like a little too niche, but it's, it is to me. Yeah. Yeah. The thing that's bearing it a little bit is Ricky Gourmet playing it at Tiny Desk. with Audrey Hobert making the like stank face, which is awesome.

And anybody who roast that dude for that sucks. Yes, I agree. That is how everybody should be thinking about and watching and processing Audrey Hobart. Also, I meant to text you this, but I forgot. But I thought of you when I was so happy to see that they kept the sacks. Yeah. I was like, I was waiting for it.

And I was like, wait, is Tarty Dess going to get the sacks? They cut the sacks for time. Boom, sacks. The job description said you need to play all these instruments. You can play, you cannot play any of these instruments, but you must play sacks to be our multi-instrumentalist on tour. Thirstrap without sacks, it's just, it shouldn't be. Anyway, do you, like, I mean, I do think that she will certainly be a very strong awards contender with this album.

I think it's a no-brainer. I mean, I think this is the frontrunner for album of the year. Yeah. It just is. Yeah. And it's only about whether it feels accessible to the voters in the Grammys. Which, like, it does. And yeah, I think so.

But at this point, like, half of the country universe doesn't even submit. Most of our, you know, highest profile black artists don't submit. Like, BTS did not submit. So it's like me playing basketball against fifth graders. Like, I'm going to win is the problem with the Grammy situation. and so whether there's backlash against that, I don't know. But like it feels like I would have said coming in, I thought it was Olivia. And I just think the critical push and swell right now is for Phoebe.

And I think it's for good reason. Yeah, I do too. And I love that. I love that Olivia album. I also, it's funny, I've been, there have been a few Olivia songs that have just popped up like during a workout class. somebody recently played Everything is Embarrassing or sorry, no,

a ballad of a homeschool girl and I just was, it just is like Olivia's got songs. She's got a discography. Like she really, she's really doing it. So absolutely no shade to her,

but I just, I think that this. It's like if she made an entire album of purples. I bounce with you. You're red and my blue. that's what this Phoebe Bridger's record is. Yeah.

Deep in feelings, interesting turns, melodies that just dig into you like the barbs on a fishing hook and you can't get rid of. It's just, it's a very special thing. So what is your favorite song? I mean, I do think my favorite song is Bobby. Yes. Yes. It's so sweet. Yes.

I just want them to be so happy. Are you walking around the house singing this to your Bobby? No. Is he aware of it yet? Yeah, I actually have to talk to him about it because Bobby, my Bobby, likes Phoebe Bridgers. Loves Bo Burnham. Okay.

Like, this is, I'm actually not even sure if he's received this news that Bo Burnham goes by Bobby. How could you not do this before the pod? I've been dying to know. I just assumed you were like walking to the kitchen going, Bobby! Like just, and being like, don't die! I do say that sometimes. Okay, well, there you go.

It's just so sweet. It's also like the joke about the vibrator is really funny. Yeah, thing in a box. A thing in a box I don't touch anymore. It's not touch. On the vinyl version, it is not touch. Wait, what is it on the... I don't know.

You have to tell me this, Laura. Thing in a box, I don't fuck anymore. That's what it says. on the bottom. I love her. She's the best. She's so funny. That's so good. I hadn't even seen that. And that song like yeah, first of all, there's a death threat

towards Julian Baker and Lucy Dacus. I know, but it is not, you know. But it sort of is. It seems like she fell in love with him watching inside. Yeah. Right? The way she sort of sets it up. Then, and then what about the Tamam Shood Redux? Like,

There's a lot of this could be the end, which is interesting after I know the end. Yeah. There's just so many, like, so much connectivity to the last record, but then there's something really creepy about the Tamimshod. Like, that became a case in Australia of a guy who just washed up and had that written in his pocket and it's like an unsolved crime. And so when she's like, let's go missing, there's something creepy. She just can't even sing a full love song without like,

Like weird fucking shit. Without it being a little bit spooky. But like even so, I really do think that this is the, if that's 5% of it and the like lovey-dovey sweetness is 95, that feels like the biggest portion in that direction on any song I've ever heard Phoebe Bridgers sing. Yeah. Feeling a little parisocial, but if they break up, I will die. Really? Not really. I just, I just, she sounds so joyful.

I just want her to be, I just want, I wish them the best. I love when they feel joy. Yeah, they do. And listen, the Tomlin's stuff is in, is in Kill Me, but like there's a little redux in this song that just feels like it calls back to, I don't know, she cannot just be fully joyful. And that's okay. That's part of what Phoebe is.

That's what life is. It's like the yin and yang stuff. And that's why I think the writing is so impactful. It's also sort of what love is. It's like you get a whole new person to be anxious about the innermost depths of your core. Yeah. Well, that's what's happening on this song. And I don't know.

It's like I'm with you. I love that digital synth keys at the end. Yeah. Even though I looked at, I was like, did they credit him for playing keys and he's not playing keys? But somebody's definitely. But he is singing. He is. I can't believe how many.

Yeah. This could be the end. he's singing that low part. I couldn't believe, I was really surprised how much he was credited on this. He's in a lot of places. Were you surprised

that Jack Antonoff produced the whole thing? Or is credited as a producer on every song, we should say? Because there's a lot of people who are credited as producers. Yes. There are a lot of people who get writing credits

where you're like, I don't know. Yeah, no, there's quite a hefty credits list in a number of regards. She's throwing around lots of credit on this album. And explain,

like, why would I be surprised that it's, Well, because two things. One is I think unless you really look closely, there's not a lot of moments on this album where I'm like, ah, Jack Hansenoff. Yes. That's true.

But there are a lot of, like, most of the moments where you're like, ah, Phoebe Bridgers. And I do think that he has gotten better at, like, really, like, since around the time that he did the 1975 album, I do feel letting them be them. Letting them be them which came at a time

when the idea that everything he touches turns into the same instantly identifiable sound. I think he's like I think he's gotten a lot better and not doing that.

I think you're right about that. Like I can't wait. There are these little glimmers of Jack synths where you're like, there it is. I hear that. There's a little bit of midnight shit in there. She let him out of the cage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was just like, I'm just going to land some stuff. Please, baby. Please. And you're like, please let me touch the synthesizer. We're letting Connor Oberg's play harmonica on this song. Cameron Winter's singing, can I please just do little jackisms here and there?

And he does. But for the most part, he just kind of lets it go. And it sounds like you said, like a Phoebe record, except that she's like empowering a lot of people. Nickel Creek is on this. The fucking coolest. Chris Teeley, the bluegrass mask. They're on Haunted. He's on a ton of stuff across this record. You've got Caroline Shaw, who is like a Pulitzer Prize winning, it's not a Pulitzer Prize. Why did I say that? I was trying to figure out where you're going back.

What am I talking about? She's like a highly recognized vocalist and vocal arranger, and she sings across this stuff. It's clear she arranged a lot of the vocal stuff that, like, makes a big difference. And I like that in this interview piece that she did for the college radio thing about I Can't Wait, Phoebe calls out Caroline Shaw in particular. Which is sort of funny because that's one of the songs where Cameron Winter is doing surprise backup vocals under a pseudonym. Hey, it's me. By the way, she did win the Pulitzer Prize for music. Caroline Shaw did.

Okay, yeah, because they have that category. Yeah. She's actually my most important collaborator. But the, but like I, are there, so Bobby, is it, is there other stuff? Like, where are you on governor's walls? It's clearly the most, it's the one that's drawing the most attention. Yeah. It's got to be about Paul Meskell.

Yeah. It's got the cool Easter egg of the New Year's countdown and the sort of dancing music. Yeah. In school. Yeah. Dancing ourselves clean. Late New Year's Eve. But it's,

it feels like, look, everybody's making a big deal because of the, there's clearly commentary on Gracie Abrams here. Yeah. I don't really view it

as shade as much as like self commentary more than anything else about how hard it is for her to be her. It is an interesting, It's an interesting line, right? Hold on, I'm realizing that my notes on this are messy and bad, and I want to get it right.

She can pretend to be me since she took my place in my bed on that stage. But then, okay, she can pretend to be me since she took my place in my bed on that stage. And like that's what I think is being pulled out as a couplet for the most. But in context, it's important. It's, she can pretend to be me. since she took my place in my bed on that stage, I have not lost any sleep. Being myself wasn't easy.

Do it for me. So it almost sounds to me because, yes, this song does seem to be about her relationship with Paul, but it also sort of feels like it's about her own discomfort with moments in her career

when things are sensibly going really well opening lyrics or I was the bell of the governor's ball hiding in the bathroom like Shelley DeVall and so she's establishing like she's in this place where she's headlining a big festival woohoo so cool and she's really uncomfortable with it

And it kind of sounds like she paints this picture of a relationship where she's like kind of trying to be comfortable in a certain life and like wanting to be. Yeah. Because that's what would make sense with this other person. But she's not. And like that's not a vicious thing to say. Like, that's, that's, we were not the right people for each other. Yeah. And actually, in a weird way, she kind of ends, ends it on this note of, like, I don't know if the you there is really supposed to be Gracie. This is a good example of where I think it is kind of nice that she can be both very specific but also a little bit opaque. Like where she's saying do it for me. But where she's saying do it for me.

In some ways, like, it kind of sounds like you are much more comfortable doing. this in a certain way. I'm not. I can't. I quit. I'm out in these respects. And like, it's an interesting kind of open-ended read.

I mean, I will say, the lore that I will never get over is you, I mentioned the sheets to you last week. Yeah, what's the sheet situation? So, have you seen this where Gracie for a bunch of her shows, I forget what chunk of touring that she's done it was,

but she had this whole stage setup where it's like her bedroom. Okay. And there's a bed on the stage and she would sit on the bed and perform. And on the bed, there were these Garnet Hill, like, glow in the dark rocket ship sheets that Gracie Abrams. that Gracie Abrams apparently had in her real life and she, in 2017,

she posted about these on Instagram. Yeah. And Phoebe commented and Phoebe was like, I have the same sheets. Yeah. Phoebe has also used these sheets. In, I think she did, when James Corden still had his show,

she did a performance where kind of similar setup, she made it look like a bedroom and she had the rocket chip sheet and duvet set on it. And so it is like, this to me is Easter egging done right. Yeah. Where we do have concrete evidence that these two women who went on to have the same boyfriend also had the same like very specific children's sheets. Yeah.

That they used in performances at some point. Like I'm. Paul Maskell has a type is your point. Maybe it's that I also, I do. I have to imagine that they don't have the sheets. on like whatever their primary setup is, because that would be odd. That would be weird.

Kitty sheets would be weird. Kiddy sheets, same kitty sheets two girlfriends in a row. I think you're on to something, which is that every other place in this song, you is clearly directed at Paul, including at the end of the other two choruses where she's saying, you promise that you'd never leave,

but maybe you'll do it for me. And in the first course, I know you'd never actually think about jumping, but do it for me. she's talking to Paul there. And so she references she, which is clearly a Gracie reference, but being myself wasn't easy to do it for me. That feels like it's directed at Paul.

I'll also say, since she took my place in my bed on that stage, there's not a comma there in the formal lyrics. Yeah. But it could be she took my place in my bed and on that stage, as opposed to like our bed was a stage because we were a celebrity couple. There are different ways to read that. I mean, they also, like, Gracie didn't replace her and just replaced her because they were cycling through different people.

But like, they were both Erez tore openers. That was a stage. Most of Gracies, I think, were later on in the run. And it's, and it was, again, the last line is being myself wasn't easy, do it for me. It starts with her hiding in the bathroom from an anxiety attack. And so I think those are the bookends to a story that's about something. different than Gracie. I just didn't take it. It felt like one of those political clips that gets cut. And if you don't watch all two minutes, it's somebody saying that they want to like murder your kids.

And actually in context, it's something that is much more nuanced and very different from what's being shared. Yeah, I mean, look, I think what's primarily being shared is, this is what the lyric is. And it seems to be about Gracie Abrams. And I think that is totally true. It doesn't strike me as super vicious. Well, is there anything else that stands out to you? I mean, Lost Weekend is a pivotal moment in the album, and there's a reprise at the end that, to me, pulls at the heart the most. But Lost Weekend's where we get it directly. I'm supposed to be married, but I called it off. There's something so, to me, again,

devastatingly honest and gorgeous about the I loved you, and you couldn't forgive me for that, and then you know me, and I'll never forgive you for that. And then the second half of that song, she builds this rhythm with her breathing. And at first, it's a very simple, it's interpolating this melody from Damien Girado's The Last Great Washington State.

I heard your pet is one who will throw me away from your shoreline into the galaxy. But then she starts this chaotic breathing pattern and the song just descends into chaos and then boom, it stops. Yeah. And it does feel sort of analogous to the, lots of people wanted to call back to the John Lennon reference to Last Weekend.

That's how he talked about the breakup with, or the separation from Yoko Ono. There's also the movie about an alcoholic going crazy. So like there's, she introduces the chaos into the end of that song. I love it and I particularly love when it comes back around at the end of the album and the reprise where, again, with the bird metaphor and she's as optimistic as she possibly,

possibly can in that last song, You Love Me and I Won't Ever Let You Forget, not yet. And then boom, it's gone. It's gone. You love me and I won't ever let you forget. And she might be gone. And there's lots more to talk about on this album. But to me, the most fascinating thing to think about,

as you asked, where is this taking her? She's going to be a massive star. Can she do this again inside of six years? probably she came back with Boy Genius and she was around a couple years ago. So it's not like she disappeared like whatever. Rihanna or something, Rihanna's been around too.

But is she emotionally capable of putting this out more often than once every six years? And I don't know. It feels like you get pulled into the world in the beginning of this album. And then there's that, it almost sounds like a heartbeat, except it's not.

It's a digital, it's the sound that something digital makes when it's conking out. And boom, you're gone. The signal is gone. And whatever was being beamed from whatever planet she's on, the message is over.

And you just don't know you're left in this darkness. I think that's the point. I also think she doesn't, first of all, we're getting way ahead of ourselves because clearly she, she will take her time.

She can, you know, know, if Boy Genius is going to do something again, maybe, like, there are other things that she can spend her time on in the interim while she reloads if this is how she wants to do album cycles. But I also think that, you know, I think one of the reasons that Lost Boys worked better for me within the context of the album is when I first heard it, I heard it as her singing about like something else, not about herself. I wasn't totally sure what it was. She was about herself?

Well, so it sounded very much to me initially like it was sort of about, you know, is it about male loneliness? Is it about like alienation through technology? And I think she's thinking about those things on the song. But I do, like I guess I understand her better as one of the law. boys once I hear it in the context of everything else. And I think it made it feel, it just made more sense to me that way. I think it felt more, the idea of it being personal, I think allowed the simplicity of it

to feel emotional rather than like she was biting something off to try to say something about something and didn't really actually have that much in it. Yeah. But I do think that, and so that works for that song for me. I also, this has nothing to do with anything, but if I do not mention that the Jimmy Kimmel Child Band performance of this was so good. You like that better than the old dudes, the next night or whatever?

I like the kids. Yeah, I like the kids too. I like the kids a lot. I liked it all, but I like the kids. But again, I think that she, like in the future, I think she can, it doesn't send me on fire. In the future, I think that she, like, this is so,

she doesn't have to top herself by finding something that is, like, more emotionally wrecking than the death of a parent and, like, two seismic relationships in someone's life. She probably has the opportunity to look outward a little bit more than she's doing. I think there are tons of opportunities for her to zig a little bit and do things that have sort of different subjects but still feel right for her. So I think there are a lot of places that she can go.

There are a couple of other songs that I want to talk about on this album. Please. Haunted in particular. Yes, I love this song. There's a lot of people who are haunted stands. I'm a haunted stand. Yeah, I am too. So I'm putting on my makeup

while they're light in the state. Hello Nickel Creek. Hello Caroline Shaw, vocal arrangements. Hello, Boy Genius. Hello, Boy Genius. I have no secrets, only feelings. And then there is a difference between lying and deciding what not to say,

which I loved. It feels like a love song to Boy Genius to me. Yeah. Which is super cool. Yeah. And I hope means that, again, she'll use that as a vehicle to go away without going away.

But I love the song. I think it's definitely one of the strongest on the album. I love on the, when she says there's a difference between lying and deciding what not to say, I love how the melody, how she takes the melody just up. Yeah. And how her voice sounds on that, I think is really beautiful. How about other plants? This is one of the songs where I'm, I still feel like I haven't cracked it.

Like I still am kind of like, I don't know how I feel about this. I think that it started as a challenge someone gave her to do a song with only one note as a melody, right? Yes. And what is fascinating about that is it makes the movement in the chorus where she moves off of the one note punch. It is as an experiment a fascinating song to me. That's how I got drawn into it. and it's just not common to hear her. And this is also a pretty positive love song.

Yeah. This is, I think, almost more positive than Bobby. And I think there's a reason that we get lost parade after it, which is to just provide a little bit of space between that and I Can't Wait, which I think are two sort of intense and slower energy songs. Yeah. No, it's cool. It's cool.

It's just, it gives you a lot. It is like a thought exercise, right? It's like, it gives you a lot to chew on. Are you not an I Can't Wait fan? I am an I can't wait fan. Okay. I don't want to cut anything from this album. I don't think that there are...

You don't want to cut Lost Braid? I don't want to... Neither do I, because I need it. I need it there. I don't, like, okay. Do I need it? I don't know. But I think it sounds...

I need the break. It's... First of all, just sounds great. Yeah. It does sound and she said this, but it really does feel kind of like old Phoebe. Like it really feels like something,

it would have fit in on a lot of Punisher. Yeah. And I think that's cool. The sort of the cheering part of it, where there's the like fife and drums, I think is, um, it's just like energy to that.

Yeah, it needed a little energy in that moment. That I think is good for where it falls. Look. Did I have the thought the first time I heard that? Yeah. This sounds really good. I wish it was a real song. Yeah, I did.

Okay. And what about as above? Why are you laughing? Because, like, I, too, like Phoebe Bridgers, get weird and emo and anxious on planes. Yeah. And I think that her description of this song is so funny because it's like, like, she can't help but take it.

just like one step weirder than I would where she's describing it and she's like well people talk about being in sort of like the liminal space of flying and like

what it makes you feel and you think about stuff and da da da da da and then she says because of the time travel right I mean I get what like time zones

and stuff short and she's like when she gives that interview she's cracking up because she's talking about how she kind of her like like thoughts were spiraling because she was watching

Hot Tub Time Machine through someone's crack in the seat. I do that all the time. Started watching a movie one where they go back in time. And so like I am that anecdote has sort of taken over that song for me.

It's ruined it for me because I thought I had it. I was like when she makes the Air Force One reference. I assume that she was like, it was subtly political, like thinking about the president and his behavior and how it sets the tone for how everyone else below him in the country acts. It sort of sets a precedent. And then they'll leave it to me is like the hardest scream on the album, which I love.

Yeah. But I think she sort of ruined it with the hot tub time machine shit. Not for me. There is lots of death and dying. I don't want to die and I don't want Bobby to die before me. Like, it's all over this album. Yeah. Extraordinarily morbid.

I'm not normally like that, but when I'm on a plane, I am always thinking about death. Are you really? Yeah, I really. I really. I'm not like a belly. You're trying like a reverse jinx? I'm not like, no, I just am like, I'm really acutely aware that I think it seems really bad to die when I'm on. a plane. Okay. Maybe it's great. No, yeah, I think it's like, I'm, something must be going, right. And she sort of talks

about that. I mean, even in the like, still standing at the end, those angelic church voices that sound very much like a choir in mourning. There's a lot of Elliott Smith parallels in that song, and we know she's like a disciple of Elliott Smith. That's the one where I was like, yeah, this sounds a lot like like Elliot Smith clearly about her dad that's where I want you back but not today comes from well and the other thing that she says on that song that I thought was just sort of like a wallup

of a line but very subtle is but you are every day yeah and there's something about using an ongoing tense to describe the state of being dead that

like because it's ongoing you know it's not in a way it's not ongoing for him but it's ongoing for her well that's what I mean every day she wakes up maybe wondering if right then that's grief yeah is maybe if I just go to bed it'll be different tomorrow but the permanence of it is both scary and sad so don't listen to that song on a plane and like that's that is an extremely complicated idea to put into five words yeah which she does and that's why she's so good

that's why she's so good because there is simplicity that just resonates and again I don't know I mean I'm a weirdo so I get into these songs I do wonder if

as more of the normy male part of the population gets exposed to Phoebe Bridgers if there's an on-ramp for them into this maybe it's through Bobby yeah

you know and just to see Like, guys love Boulburnham. Yeah. I think they do. For every, like, the job of this album and whatever I'm interested in is not, let's get dudes into Phoebe Bridgers.

Like, no, guys love Cameron Winter, too. Whatever. But yeah, there's plenty of, there are plenty of entry points. And so, so let me ask you this. Do you think Taylor posted with a little bit of FOMO looking at the cinematic universe of cool people who are on this album? Like it's kind of like,

it's like Nickel Creek is the fucking coolest. Chris Tilly is the most badass manel in player. He, like, Cameron Winter is the poster boy for Indy Cool. Here he is singing under and over Phoebe about Jekyll and Hyde. It's just such a beautiful moment on this album. You've got Jack, who's the bridge between them. But there really are, there's Connor,

playing the harmonica. on, I can't wait. It's kind of like a murderer's row of the true indie cool kids, which, by the way, Taylor proactively made Evermore and folklore happen by reaching out to who were at the time the cool indie kids in Aaron Dessner, Boni Vare, to make folklore and Evermore happen. So, like, she comes by this love and passion for this stuff, honestly. She still thinks about herself. By the way, the new bangs.

Okay. I don't think the bangs aren't new. Okay. She's had bangs. All right. She had someone slack her bangs dramatically to the left for an event. Okay. And she cut her hair.

Okay, I don't know. I don't know. I'm just saying. No, you're not the only, Taylor Swift's new bangs. She's had bangs. All right. But she's an indie child at heart.

I really think she is. She's cosplaying a pop star, but this is where she actually lives, at least a part of her. She's a very complicated, multifaceted artist, but a part of her lives here. And I just wonder, like, did she look at over the wall and be like, oh, man, the cool kids all got together?

Like, I don't think she thinks that when she looks at Maddie Heelty. Indy folk artist at heart marries Travis Kelsey at Madison Square Garden. English teacher. She's an English teacher. And this is an album written by like a professor's assistant at a liberal arts college. Yeah. Well, it's kind of like inside of you, there are two wolves. And like one of, this is one of them for her.

But there's, oh, who is giving this interview? Somebody said something. Oh gosh, it was someone from when she did a, she was guested on New Girl, I think. But somebody did an interview recently where they were talking about her being on that set and saying, would you rather play for like an intimate crowd somewhere or a big stadium? And that apparently what Taylor's response to that was, if you could fill the ocean with people. people, I would like to play for that. That is so awesome. Yes.

And that's the other wolf. Yeah. Phoebe would say, if you could fill the ocean with people underwater, I'd like to play for that. That's the darkness of her. But not drowning. Maybe. Maybe. No.

If Bo Burnham doesn't like them, she's ready to kill. She's not going to kill. She's not going to kill Boy Genius. Yeah. Maybe. Do you think they're worried at all? Do you think they heard that lyric? And they're like, what the fuck, Feeves? I mean, maybe a little bit.

Is there any filter on you? It seems like no. No, I don't think that, I don't think that Phoebe Bridgers is going to kill Boy Genius in a murderous rage in defense of Bo Burnham. But I also bet they like Bo Burnham. Well, kill me, Tamam Shood, the Persian for It Is Ended. But just to answer your question I don't I feel very un cynical

about Taylor Swift and Phoebe Bridgers's relationship Yeah I just I I don't I mean to the extent that Taylor feels left out of whatever is happening or sort of envy it like

I didn't mean excluded I just meant like Yeah I didn't mean to suggest that there was a that any of it was malicious. I just think there's a part of her heart that, in the best possible way, I want Taylor to listen to this album and feel challenged. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's what happened. I think that's what that post is a reflection of. From that perspective, it's interesting what she said, which was she sort of centered the post on the idea that it was noteworthy to her how much Phoebe was trusting her audience

with these stories. I have to be honest, I do not think that Taylor Swift trusts the public. No. With this level of introspection. As she said, trust issues, that's true. Yes. That's true. But I wonder if it might inspire her.

It felt like a post of inspiration. Again, she has not, she didn't post about the Gracie record. This is true. She posts about the theater. No, she knows this is really good. She knows this is like an event. And I also think, that she genuinely, I really feel

that she and Phoebe Bridgers have something genuine. And I think they have enough, like, I do think that there is something to, they're both greats in their own way. It's not, there's something where they understand parts of each other's brains I could see, but they're not quite

cut from the exact same cloth where I think that's a nice way to not have, like, it's not like Olivia where it's sort of like, you are the next generation me and your come up has to be on my coattails or nipping at my heat like I don't think they have that I think they have something very beautiful and I hope that their friendship is wonderful to me it it reminds me a little bit of McCartney talking about the beach boys and how the Beatles were like they were freaked out by the Pet Sounds album and I wasn't alive when this happened I just but it's like great band like you need a contemporary that's pushing you and Phoebe's 32 as of this

week Taylor's 36 going on 37 like they at least I want I want Taylor to be inspired by something and to your point not have it feel competitive or threatening but something that's going to inspire her to yeah I don't mind if she feels like it's artistically competitive or artistically like kind of lights that fire I do you know, okay, it could inspire her and make her feel compelled to like make something great. The specific ways in which I think this is really inspiring, it has so much to do with the willingness to, you know, crack open your sternum and let people into the ugliest and saddest and most joyful. but like all of those parts of you and your life. Yeah.

I just, I have a very hard time seeing her doing that ever again, to be honest. Taylor. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I come back to there is the juxtaposition of the Charlie XX album rollout, which was cool. She is cool, and that universe is cool, contrasted with this, which is like, effortlessly cool. It almost sort of undercut all of that work and the flash and the show. Suddenly, Phoebe, like, turn the dial and just grab, to me, just like the cultural cachet of what

cool feels like, cool is having Cameron Winter, uncredited, or under a pseudonym, like, show up and sing in the second, the third verse of a song under and over your vocal. Cool is having... Sun John Johnson. Yeah, there you go. Cool is like making everybody put their fucking phones if they want to get in the same room as you are in a bag that is zipped up so there is no content to be shared because in this moment of weird digital shit

and by the way you think her head is not full of conspiracy theories she's with Bo Burnham 24-7 that motherfucker is so skeptical of technology he's terrified what do you think he thinks of these data centers he is off his rocker about what they're doing to us through AI and she has definitely drank some of the Kool-Aid.

It's fine. I'm just saying that she is creating this space that is a place to just be human. And at the end of the day, after a full year of albums from some of our biggest stars, here's Olivia, here's Charlie,

here's Gracie, on and on and on. This is the most human album we've had in a long time. And that's what makes it so great. This is a really this is a really lyrical album.

I want to make sure that we really specifically pull out our favorites. Okay, go. So I do, I mean, I guess I'll use the vinyl version. Yeah.

Use it. Actually, I don't know. Sometimes I like the subtlety, but a thing in a box I don't touch and or fuck anymore. That's wonderful. Well done. The thing in the box

I don't touch anymore. I do think that just the intro couplet of the outside as a way to start an album is pretty memorable. Yeah. Crying in a suit and tall, but you should say the other guy. And then I brought this up before, but from still a story. though when you said sorry you were looking at me like that really that lodged itself into my psyche for sure yeah but when you said sorry you were looking it was you know me and i'll never forgive you for that from last weekend there's just something about that that sets up to me yes she's speaking to others but i i think there's a

subtle hint at the fans for why she was gone for so long and there's just a discomfort that she lives with that she references in different songs across this album about being known and how difficult it is. And the entire rollout of this album is her keeping some space because she is so completely filleted open emotionally and just in some ways physically on this album. I think, you know, we've been, we've had a spectrum of grades. recently. Yeah.

This felt like a real A to me. Do you understand why I didn't grade role model last week? Who's your coward? Besides that. You know, we put it on in the background for a little bit. It's fun. It's fine. I stand by it, but I do want to know what Lena Dunham is hearing that I'm not.

This is a solid, solid A. Yeah. And it's the best album we've done this year. I think so, too. It's close with Olivia, because I think. think the Olivia record is that good. And Olivia's going to have bigger hits. Yeah. And she's going to do that while maintaining her credibility as an artist. But Olivia's job is, yeah, she's in chase of that next pop star, I think, in a more, what's the way? It doesn't feel as, like she's

working as hard. And I'm not even sure that that's what she wants. I think she maybe want, Olivia wants to be more of a rocker. She wants to, she probably, we thought for a second, maybe she was dating Cameron Winter. No. But the reality is... No, she's dating a junior analyst somewhere. Let's go, finance guys. Mount up.

They live in Waka, guys. But I think that it's not easy to be me sentiment that Phoebe talks about here. Do it for me to be myself. I think Olivia has a little bit of that tension. Like, she still is pushing back against becoming this giant pop star that it feels like she is destined to become

when what she really wants to do is hang out with Robert Smith and sing Cure songs in a smaller venue, right? Phoebe is unashamed and unabashedly who she is on this record. Yeah, and Phoebe also wasn't a Disney kid. Exactly. So maybe she can go play stadiums. It might be so fucking rock and roll

that she chooses not to because for whatever reason that's not the vibe that she's trying to go for. And I'll say, you know the Phoebe live show let's see like on the last tour it was okay I thought Boy Genius was cool

it's not a you're not going there's no pyrotechnics outside of I know the end like this is a different kind of thing so how her start-in evolves from here but but I do think that this album from a like

start to finish is slightly more to me like resonant in the Olivia record, but I want to reserve the right to change my mind before the end of the year, because I do think we've gotten two really great albums this year, and it's Olivia and Phoebe. They're not in competition. They're very different things. They're on different tracks.

And in a lot of ways, I think they're probably soulmates. Olivia lusting after the indie part of this, I imagine in the same way that we saw Taylor posting. I think because this isn't the type of album that, like, we've talked about she's already so big for someone who is kind of indie that I don't see this album making her like bigger in a more normy sense

but what I do see it doing is like really intensifying what is already a pretty intense fan artist connection in a lot of ways and I think often you can really feel that in a live show and I'd be excited for that I think she's like in the Joni Mitchell territory. And I know that's her heresy to some, but this is only her third album. Like, there's

more to come. But right now, she's kind of got that legacy in the 2020s in the same way that Joni had it coming into the 60s. Like, she is that person right now. I was listening to I know the end just while I was sort of in the Phoebe zone. And I, I think that's my favorite song of hers. I know you you choose other ones, but I have the thought where I was like, is this is this like the song of the 2020? Like is this the best song of the 2020s?

Not to me, but it's like not a crazy. No, it's not crazy. Because it's so full of pathos. Like I don't know she's on a really short list. Yeah. Of people who I think can make you

feel so intensely with her words and with the music. Yeah. The answer to your question is that funny feeling is the best song of the 2020s. This has been every single album. As always, I'm Norman Ciotty. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to Kai McMullen for producing this episode. Thank you to Kate and Remy in the studio. Thank you to Nathan for popping into New York and letting me know that you were going to be here so that we could do this in person. And thanks to you for listening. We'll talk to you next week.