Every Single Album - Mailbag and Song Draft | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Episode Date: April 9, 2021

As they begin to wrap up the series (don't worry—there will be one more episode covering the 'Fearless' rerelease!), Nora and Nathan answer listener questions (1:00) before each drafting their 10 favorite Taylor Swift songs (1:09:50). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringers Charles Holmes and co-host Grace Spellman present the most notorious new podcast in the industry, the Ringer Music Show. Every Tuesday, they'll bring you the latest news, the hottest takes, and the deepest reporting about the wild world of music and the chaotic industry that creates it. Check out the Ringer Music Show exclusively on Spotify. Hello and welcome to a wrap-up episode of every single album, Taylor Swift. I'm Nora Prince-Iotti. I'm a staff writer at The Ringer, and for one of the last times, I am now with David Hubbard. I know. It's such a wrap-up episode of every single album, Taylor Swift. I'm Nora Prince-Orinciati. I know. It's such a I'm going to cry. This is emotional. Nathan, how are you feeling? I am feeling ready to wrap this up in the best way. This, we have some awesome, awesome questions that are going to give us this extra pod. We didn't know exactly what we were going to do for this one. But the audience has been so engaged that they gave us a really easy blueprint, didn't they? Yeah, that's been the most fun part of all of this, really, is just how engaged and thoughtful. and smart and funny everybody is. And it's just been a joy to talk to you guys through this process. And I think we didn't know where we were going to go at this point. We knew that we wanted to cover some stuff about kind of where Taylor might go from here, what the next few years might look like, what we think they might not look like,

some stuff about the re-recordings, some big picture things that we learned through this process. Gosh, I think we're at, I don't know, 15 hours of podcast or whatever it is. maybe not quite that, but close. But the thing was is that everybody's questions are so spot on and are going to help us cover a lot of that territory that I think we're just going to jump into a mailbag here. And when we put out the request for questions, what I got and what I noticed was that they kind of fell into three major categories. And one is the where does she go from here? Another one is stuff that really all has to do with the re-recordings and the masters and kind of her place. still fighting for artist rights.

And then the third is more general sort of grab baggy stuff. So that's the way that we're going to go through these questions. Thank you guys for talking to us in general and loving the pod, but also for sending in questions because they're really awesome. The other thing that we got a ton of requests for was to rank songs, rank various types of songs. And don't you worry, we are ready to throw down.

We will be doing at the end of this pod after the mailbag, we're going to do a 10-song draft. And I have a feeling it's going to get pretty, heated. I have a big board. This is the end of our friendship. I've been consulting with my scouting department thoroughly. And yeah, this might be, this might be the end of it, but it doesn't have to be the end of it for you guys.

Just as we are going to do the song draft, I hope everybody else, you know, find a buddy at home and do it and send us the song teams that you end up with. Weird, Nathan, but a stranger on the internet. Fine, whatever. The guy from Allstate City, inspiration can come in strange packages. We learn this from Taylor, if nothing else. But let's get started with the mailbag.

And I really apologize if I screw up anybody's name, but I'm going to give it my best. The old college try. So Florentia asked, what do you guys think she's going to do next? And what would your suggestions be? Nathan? Well, I think the masters stare down that she's in right now,

meaning the stare down over the control of her master's is the big question at the moment. Will she completely redo all her old stuff? from front to back, or is she putting some of this out in hopes to bring the people who own her masters currently to the table to have that negotiation and ultimately get some control back or all control back? Depending on how that goes, that's going to dictate her schedule. I expect we're going to start to see her, start to write and play with others, including a lot of heavy involvement in the next Big Red Machine album.

I really think all of this content that we've seen is this intense period of nesting. It's hard to believe that she can sustain this like this going forward. You know she's at a point in a personal relationship where she seems very settled and happy. On the song piece, there's a reference to give you a child. I expect we're going to see a tour, but I do think that Taylor's going to have to confront

what she wants in her life and whether she can find a way to strike a balance that works for her going forward. But I really think this master's question and the re-release of Fearless tomorrow, by the time this podcast comes out, is going to tell us a ton about how she schedules her time going forward. What do you think? Do you think that she is personally thinking about what's next, that she has a plan outside of these re-recordings? Does she have vision for what the next new album looks like? I think she's always thinking about what's next, right? But I think you're right that she will have to slow down the pace a little bit

because the pace is crazy. And I think big picture, you know, this is sort of optimism on my part because, of course, I hope this happens. But I think that Taylor is someone who will continue to create music late into her life. It doesn't seem like something that she really can live without. So she will have to figure out something that is sustainable for years to come that fits with, you know, a different family situation or whatever. However she wants to design her life and whatever new sounds fit within that plan. I think more immediately, she will figure out the master's thing, as you said, and she will tour.

But in terms of what an album release cycle looks like for her that still explore, Laura's new musical territory is satisfying, is interesting, but isn't this thing that she just created because she found lightning in a bottle with new collaborators and also because everybody was locked in their houses for a year? Like, yeah, I think it'll change from that. The next one, Christy, do you think Loverfest, there we go? Do you think Leverfest canceling has something to do with the fact that the album hasn't stuck with you as long?

How should she approach her next tour? My dream is for a three-day tape festival with one day of throwback Tay. one day lover and covers, and then the other folklore evermore. Hard to pull off, but love that idea. I think it does have something to do with the fact that the album hasn't totally stuck with us

because I think that's just one piece of the puzzle, but I just think about how much I love that, that Paris City of Lover concert and the NPR Tiny Desk show. And some of that stuff really hit me when I watched her perform it. So I don't know that it would vault. Did that happen with any other albums for you where songs stuck when you saw them live that hadn't?

I mean, it happened to me with All Too Well. But like, I'm an old dude. So like... No. I don't think so. I don't think to the same degree. Yeah. I wonder what would have happened if I had, but speak now hit me immediately.

That's the thing is like, I think a lot of people had that experience with reputation. Right. I was pretty early into reputation. so it just was a continued awesomeness kind of experience. But I think Lover does, would have had a shot to have that kind of sink in for people a little bit more. But I don't know that that's the whole situation with that album just because it is transitional in all those ways that we talked about, which kind of puts it in this purgatory thing a little bit. But it would have been really cool to see.

Well, the little secret about Loverfest is it wasn't just, you know, a one-day thing. Like, she was thinking with Loverfest about how do I disrupt the touring business in the same way I'm trying to disrupt the recorded music business. And so I think we're going to see her continue to push in that way, even with reputation. You know, we didn't get to talk about this on the Reputation Pod, but with that tour, she tried out some experimental ways to reward fans who watched videos or bought merchandise and move them up. in line to be able to get tickets because usually in those stadiums shows, even as big as a stadium is, there is more demand than there is supply. And that's why the purchasing experience is sometimes difficult. She tried some things.

Some of them worked. Some of them didn't. She tried some things around pricing and really, really trying to price the best seats in the house at the intersection of supply and demand, meaning like at what they're worth so that scalpers didn't grab them and try to resell them. and then lower prices up in the upper deck. So she is not afraid to throw some spaghetti against the wall and see what sticks.

I have a sense that she's going to do some mini-residencies. It's just not really possible. I don't think to do folklore and ever more justice in a stadium. And so I sort of expect that she's going to do something in a stadium that brings in, you know, some greatest hits and features some. love her stuff, but all the stuff that we love from reputation in 1989 and fearless and all the way back, but that she might then around that show, by the way, I also think she will use it to lift up

other artists that she likes. I don't think she's going to go out on tour with one opening act or two or three opening. I think that she will carry over the spirit of Loverfest, which was bringing out a bunch of artists and giving them an audience that they otherwise wouldn't have. But I expect that she might move into a town and stay there for five days and do one or two of those stadium festival shows and in between or before or after, go to the concert hall and do a more intimate 3,000 to 5,000 person

folklore and evermore treatment that probably will be a little bit higher priced in some cases for the best seats in the house, but that gives it the forum, give those songs, the forum that they need. Now, what's going to be hard, Nora, is I don't know how you get Jack out of what he's doing. And I don't know how you get Aaron Dessner out of what he's doing and maybe even, you know, Boni Vair, if not the whole band. How do you get them out on the road with you when you have other opportunities, if you're those guys?

Right. I've been on a real bleachers kick for the last like two days. So now that feels very real to me. Yeah, I don't know. That's a strange sentence for me to be saying. Every single album, bleachers would be a shorter pod, I think. We're not doing that. That's not happening. Okay. But it's going to be fascinating to see what she does on the touring front. I really expect her to take this and, again, almost do these mini-residencies in cities.

It's going to be cool to see. We've talked about her sort of gift for identifying talent. That's such a cool element of what Loverfest wanted to be and should have been and maybe what this could end up being. She's really great at identifying those people to bring out and show. And that would be a great opportunity for her to do that. All right. Next question is from Christopher Gutierrez, who asks, arguably, TAY has done it all. But what is the collab that she needs to do before it's all said and done?

I'll answer first. I am firmly team collaborate with Drake. And I will die on this hill until it happens. And she already name checked him. So it feels possible. What do you think you're going to get from that? Like, what does Drake bring to the table with a Taylor Swift? Feelings. Feelings.

Like, these are the two most emotionally extra current artists. And I would like to see them channel that energy into something together. And you think that, like, they're going to bring together two primary colors to, like, they're going to put blue and yellow together to create green as opposed to they're going to put their colors together. and it's just going to be brown and gross. I think it could be green. I think it could, I mean, think of, Drake could have fit into some of the best stuff off reputation

pretty seamlessly. Right. Drake probably would have been, could have led to a better version of end game, although I would argue that the value ad would have been created if he replaced Shearin, but whatever. You and I could have led to a better version of end game, but I, I think.

Ed Shearin is the one who could, not keep up in that unholy eternity, but whatever. Okay. We didn't say that at the time. You didn't bring that into the game. You really have some Ed Sheeran. Is it because he sold a lot of albums? No, I really, I like, I like Ed Sheeran.

Okay. I'm not sure that Ed Shearin and Taylor have created the best stuff together. All right. Well, maybe they'll work together on an album called, Square Root or something. I think... I'm happy for their friendship. Yeah, me too.

I think she's going to start getting brought into the next generation of artists that she has inspired. Like, Olivia Rodrigo is an example of an artist who I feel like she has always been in so many of her albums and including on these

re-releases. I mean, Fearless has Marin Morris. It has Keith Urban. We know that, you know, going forward, she's going to keep bringing other people in. I'm excited to see her start to work with a generation of artists that she's inspired. But the truth is she should co-write

and co-produce the next Beyonce record. We need to get that queen, the album of the year Grammy. It needs to go to Beyonce. She is long overdue. She should already have one. And I think Taylor's songs working in collaboration with Beyonce,

they clearly have a personal relationship. They should have a working musical, creative relationship. I would die to see that. I don't need to hear Taylor's voice on that album, by the way. But I think that the two of them working on songwriting with Beyonce singing would be fascinating. I'm obsessed with that idea. And I would actually, honestly, I would rather not hear

Taylor's voice on that album. No way. Because then that would become the project, right? How do you, how do you take these two different primary colors and make green opera? I don't want to hear them attempt that. I want to hear them work together and just identify what exactly the sound absent all other factors is that they would go for and do that. So many of the questions that we got are sort of, what's her next sound going to be? I would love to hear her songs from the lips of other people. You know, I want more Better Man. Okay, but we think Better Man is better when she sings.

Well, we're going to do a song draft. Just relax, okay? We've got a lot ahead of us here. All right, all right, all right. So we got this question from a couple people. So I'm going to acknowledge a couple questions here together. So Molly asked us, why do you think when Taylor features women artists, their background vocalists or harmonies, while her male collaborators get at least a full verse? Obviously, she's a huge supporter of fellow female artists, so I'm curious what you think. And then Jason Goodman said, who do each of you think is the next young female artist to be the next Taylor Swift? Do we even know who she is yet? So I wanted to kind of address both of those things together. I'll tell you what I think on the second part. I don't think we know who the next Taylor, quote unquote, is. And I also don't.

don't think that there really is one. Right. But we are, as you just pointed to, going to start seeing more and more of the next generation that, like, grew up on her. I mean, I think Olivia Rodrigo is, like, she's our first true, swifty breakout star. She's got a healthy balcony and me.

I'm not the only one. Right? Like, it's not just that she, I mean, there's people like Maggie Rogers who love Taylor and our inspiration. by the songwriting, Olivia is, like, cut from the cloth of being so excited

when Taylor likes your Tumblr post. Yeah, she ate, she ate some Taylor Gummys and some Lord Brownies, and this is what she's doing. I'm not sure that it's fair, quite honestly, with Olivia Rodrigo, who I think is terrific.

But this is not a John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Paul, whatever, like Jay-Z Eminem American poet. you know, in the way that I think Taylor Swift at this point has established herself as a great American poet. And so I'm with you completely. Let's stop with the, is there going to be another? Part of the reason why we're able to talk about this woman for 15 to 20 hours is there's not going to be another.

This is something unique and fascinating in that right. But I do want to get your opinion on Molly's question, which is, because we hear it all the time. What's up with the... Why does she always give the male collaborator the first verse? And why when she sings with a woman is she usually relegated to the background? That's the perception that some people have. Do you accept the premise?

And if so, what's the answer? I accept it to a degree because it's... Look, this has gone on for a while, right? Like, name the most significant female... who's actually singing on a Taylor Swift track and getting a lot of lines in there, the list is pretty short. I do think that in this conversation,

we kind of give background vocals a bad rep. I do too. Good answer. And she thinks they're important. Because she... And she does really cool stuff with them. Yes. Like what Heim does on nobody,

no crime is essential. What she does on gasoline is essential. Essential. And incredible. and those are things that are they are artistically creative, they're valuable to the song, they're important. She is a believer in the voice as an instrument. You are onto it here.

You got it. It's not fair to say background vocals means second fiddle. It's one of her superpowers. Right. But the distinction is real. Like we can tell. Yeah, I mean, there is a role that her male collaborators have filled doing vocals and a role of female collaborators have filled doing vocals.

and they are different. Yeah. I wonder if there's, you know, she's just gotten so creative and has opened up the narratives in her songwriting to so many different types of people and so many different sort of origin stories of where the inspiration came from.

I wonder if sometimes she gets those moments of inspiration of like, oh, this can be a duet because there's these two kind of oppositional perspectives or whatever. And maybe sometimes that in the past, has led her to thinking like, oh, who's the guy who can do the other part for this? Yeah.

And I would hope that as she's just opened up the narratives around who she's writing about and what the stories are, maybe that would lead to putting some more female voices front and center. I mean, she certainly has really important women on her team. I mean, we've talked about, you know, going back to Liz Rose, we've talked about Laura Sisk now in the more present tense.

So I want to just... One tree. I mean, she's got... Right. And I just want to dispel the idea that there aren't women involved in the process doing really meaningful things.

Did anybody see the bad blood video? Right. Although that's a complicated text for that, I guess. But it's something that I hope she will do more. I mean, I'm just over the moon about that Beyonce idea. But I don't know that saying oh, well, the women only do background vocals is quite right

just because I think she does important things with that stuff. Look, if she elevates female voices through the next iteration of the tour, but continues creatively to handle female voices in the way, you know, do we think about it differently? Look, I think there's two things. The first is she likes the contrasting styles. Her stuff is frequently written in multiple chapters, and the stark change that's almost like a mark of a new chapter

in the story when the male voice comes in or when hers follows the man, it's a stylistic thing she clearly likes. But I don't want to sugarcoat this. She has historically been self-conscious about her voice. And this is a woman who has spent a lot of time working really hard to outrun her demons. One of her demons is that she doesn't believe she's good enough,

which is laughable. all this time talking about how Aaron Dessner sort of had to like kind of course correct her on the long puns section. I think she probably... Boney Bear will think you're cool. Yeah. She probably... I mean, my estimation is

that insecurity has kept her from wanting to be compared and wanting to have to answer did the red plus blue equal purple or did it make brown? Is my voice good enough to go alongside this person? And I just wouldn't fault her for those choices, but I do think it's probably rooted in something she's been really

open and honest with us about, which is, hey, we all have anxieties and insecurities. And hers from, you know, the left sets thing and the song Mean to the debut album to, you know, even today, it's been the thing that she's been uncomfortable with musically. It's also the thing that she's worked her ass off at, clearly, and gotten to a place. where it is now her superpower. Yeah. No, I think that's right. So I think that we can sort of not not falter too harshly for the past choices

while still hoping that she'd do some of that stuff in the future. She lifts up the voices of lots of female artists. I think this is largely unfair criticism. And there's plenty of things that you can throw darts at here. But this one, I think people take an issue that maybe doesn't necessarily need to be there. I think that's fair, but I think it's rooted mostly in just sort of the excitement that would come from, okay, instead of having those, and you know, love Jack, but like instead of having these sessions where you're going to go talk to Jack about whatever experience and then you guys are going to process that and kind of capture that magic and make a song, what would happen if that conversation was happening with another woman? Yeah.

I mean, Nora, at this point, when we read our Evermore text back, I was so embarrassed. Because why the fuck don't we trust her? She has earned our trust. And so for everyone who's like, well, why didn't she? It's like, yo, trust her. Is she going to make mistakes? Yes. But the journey so far, the data says we're in a good place.

You know, when she starts losing her fastball, then okay. But like Tom Brady won a damn Super Bowl with the table. Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Taylor Swift is going to make good choices about how to arrange male and female voices on her songs. Well, I even, I texted you that day of Eamor, and we ended up reading it, saying, I've never disliked a single one of this person's albums. Why am I so nervous? And so many people sent me messages about that being like, why is this the experience? Why are we always terrified? She always delivers. But, you know, as we have documented, lots of artists step in a big pile of poop at some point in time. Right.

Because they get drawn out their wealth and their fame and their comfort draws them out. And probably lots of therapy draws them out of the inspiration, the well of inspiration that creatively they tapped into to create songs. It dries up at some point. And that is okay. it's perfectly fine, but that's why nobody who's 70 years old is ever going to win artist of the year, because, or album of the year, because by the time you get there, with maybe a tiny few exceptions, by the time you get there, you're done. You've said the things that you need to say. What is extraordinary about this woman is that she keeps finding more things to say.

And what worked about folklore and Evermore, and we should take note as we think about what's next. is that she stopped talking so much about her own experience and started imagining the experiences of others. And that is what unlocked the next wave of creativity. And that's one of many reasons why, yeah, you're right. At some point, you run out of things to say, and maybe she will have to change, I think she will definitely have to change the pacing of it.

But I really do, I don't think it's just that I've drank the Kool-Aid. I really do believe that she will be... I'm swimming in Kool-Aid, but I still believe that she will be... creating, okay, stop. You're with the gummies and the brownies and now we're drinking cool. Like, what's gotten into you? We're on a Taylor and Olivia Bender. I really do believe she will be creating meaningful work for many years to come, whether that's for herself, for other people. Our last question from the sort of where does she go from here section is from Ellie,

who said, do you think Taylor will take the root of Trent Reznor or daft punk and dive into film scores or soundtrack production. What do you think? I mean, is this really an egot question? It's kind of an egot question, but I just, I really want her to. And I think she will. Like, that just seems like the type of good creative outlet

that you can start to get more into as you're trying to design a life and a career that maybe allows for a little bit more, you know, flexibility in time at home and not quite the same quick release album cycle touring schedule kind of life. Also, some of her best songs are like, they're so cinematic.

I feel like that's a word that we've used many times through this podcast process. So I would love to see her do that. I think she absolutely should. Nora, we have never met in person, but this in 2D is my skepticism face. I can see it. He's like, the brow is furrowed.

I, she worked with Andrew Lloyd Weber for cats. On cats. Okay. But the way that she works right now is she's focusing on the things she's great at. And she's outsourcing the things that she's not great at. By the way, that's what awesome CEOs do just relentlessly. They stay focused on that. She is allowing somebody else to bring her a lot of composition and then taking her amazing. godlike lyrical and rhythmic and melodic skills and layering it over music. It's hard for me to see her arranging strings. I don't think that's what Taylor Swift does the best. Okay, but she could identify other people to help with that.

And also, the counter argument would be one of your favorites, what she did on gasoline, right? And that's specifically with her voice. but she seems to really have an understanding of how to just create like a sonic bed that fits what something needs. And I bet she could do that for a movie. Well, she could.

Look, Barry White couldn't even read music and he composed all those strings just out of his head and with his voice and had somebody interpret it. So if she wants to do that, I could see it. I just, her history here in film is she writes songs for movies. And maybe they're left over.

and they get used for the movie, maybe she screens the movie, gets moved by it, and write something for it. I'd expect her to do more of that than taking over the entirety of a score unless Joe is involved. And I could see her absolutely working

in partnership with him on a project that would keep them in the same geographic place and give them an outlet for continuing to expand, you know, what clearly is working for them creatively. What if they egot together?

Oh my God, no one will have ever written on coattails his heart. Nope. Stop! Stop! We've been too mean to Joe. We've been accused of Joe Slander. We love Joe. And in fact, we've learned a lot about him, haven't we? We've learned a lot through this process. That's been fun with the audiences. We've learned that he actually picks amazing projects. And so, you know, the extent to which he picks something great, I could absolutely see him bring her in and have them work together on that. That would be cool as hell. Yeah, I'm a fan. Valentine's Day Part 2. Oh, my God. I cannot believe you shoehorned one more Valentine's Day reference into this podcast. You know, you'd see it.

You would see it. I have seen it. I saw it. I saw it in the mid-2000s or whenever it was. All right. Now we're going to talk about the re-recordings. So Anthony asks, will the Taylor's version albums all drop in quick succession? Or is this going to be a two to three-year project with many eras for each release?

which of the six Taylor's versions will be the last to see the right to see the light of day. Excuse me. And then Gregory said, what's the ideal chronology of Taylor album re-releases now that she's started out of order with fearless being released first? So those are kind of the same question. Yeah. Yeah. I think you've got to look at this through the filter of why she's doing this. She's doing this because she wants to reroute the money that is going to people who claim ownership over her art.

she wants to reroute the flow of those funds to her, not because she needs the money, but because she doesn't believe that somebody else should be able to claim ownership over an artist's work. And so if that is the prism through which we look at this, she's going to try to get these out as quickly as possible because every day that goes by,

there's somebody clicking on style, paying somebody else, money gets, you know, fractions of pennies flow through the digital ether, into somebody else's pocket. So I think she is likely doing these in the order of the most popular on streaming services

to least popular on streaming services, which will put debut last, but she wants to get these out as quickly as possible, assuming, and here's the big asterisk, Nora, assuming that her intent is to re-record everything, as opposed to start putting some of these things out and look at the people who claim-owner

over her masters and say, I am killing the value of your asset. Come to the table. Let's negotiate something and work it out. Otherwise, you are going to have zero to show for what you paid hundreds of millions of dollars for that was mine to begin with. What do you think? I totally agree with you. And this is, I'm going to court, you know, at old takes exposed. It really seems like she's having fun doing this. Oh, you're right. And I think like she's smart, obviously. So if it really, you know, that you know what hits the fan and it makes more sense for her to use the leverage that she's built by starting to do this to go back to the table, look them in the eye and say, look, it's now or never and get a good deal based on that.

Then again, she's a smart person. She's a smart business woman. Like, I think that would be compelling to her. But I just, my heart of heart says that we're going to hear these things because it seems like she's having fun. I think you're right. Look, the data is going to tell us a lot. She's going to know, because she can call up Daniel Eck at Spotify, she can call up Tim Cook at Apple, and she can figure out who is playing her stuff versus somebody else's. So she's going to have close to perfect information about whether this effort works. And in conjunction with what you're saying, which is she's having fun, if the data says all of us, meaning passionate fans,

but also casual fans who sort of drift in to listen to a Taylor Swift song, are picking the version that says Taylor's version in parentheses, she's going to keep going. But Nora, what is the right sequence to release these things,

assuming she goes all the way through? Well, again, so Fearless and 1989, which are the two songs that we know. Seemed to be in the bag, right? Yeah. work has been done on those are those supernova albums. Albums of the year. Right. Listen to all the time. One thing that I thought was so interesting that I realized over the course of doing that is that those albums, you know, I like 1989

better than I like Fearless. But the thing that those two albums have in common is that they both appeal to groups and collectives. And I think there's something really nice about that, even though there are, at least in the case of Fearless, like I think it gets a little bit of shine that maybe speak now deserved. But I kind of like the idea that there's something really potent about writing writing music for people to experience together and that being a super effective mode for her. I think there's something nice to that. But after those two, then...

What comes next? This is actually very interesting. I think we can tell a lot about you based on what you say. So it's fearless first, assuming 19 and second. I mean, do we agree that debut is going to be last? Debuts. Okay, so debuts last. So this is the moment.

I think it's red. I, yeah. I mean, where do you put red reputation and speak now? Because Fearless is country, 99 is pop. Do you go back to country? Do you go, like, that's, what do you do? Well, they would also, I wonder if there might be a little bit of just a practical thing where, redoing rep is going to be complicated, right?

Just because of the number of different instruments and, you know, electronic elements and the vocoder and like getting all of that stuff. Right. How the hell are they going to replicate that? So maybe Swedish guys in a room. Because it's just complicated. Yeah, I think you're right.

I think it's harder to crank that one out. I think she could do speak now. I mean, listen, she could do speak now in an afternoon based on what we're seeing right now. But, like, I think she could do speak now much more easily. Reputation is hard to redo. Yeah. Without Max Martin and Shelback, at least.

Right. So if I had to guess you do, okay, Fearless, 1989, red, speak now, reputation, debut. Look, fuck Ryan Adams, but what if she did a Ryan Adams treatment of reputation? Like, it might just be too hard. hard to redo in that way. What if she just went completely left and did a strip down version of that or something? Yeah, I wonder. I wonder if she'll do that at least for something over the course of this process if she does take it all the way. I remember, you know, look, I'm trying not to overreact to the horse trailer version of Wildest Dreams. But that felt to me in just that

little snippet. Like, it was attempting to be similar, but there were divergencies from the original that I was a little bit less receptive to. Whereas Love Story, when I heard Love Story Taylor's version, I was like, okay, I can identify what's a little bit different about this, but this just has the, it has the thing, like it has the ethos of it. It filled the same mold with better vocals, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas Wildest Dreams didn't quite do that for me. I wonder if, so you're towing that line of like, where can you go for a carbon copy and when is that so hard that you're better off kind of reimagining?

And reputation would be a really interesting one for that. What we know about her voice now is that she can step into a studio and nail a track in one or two takes. And that means, like, really, she could, if you hire a bunch of musicians to go when you're not there and re-record an album and do the best you can to mirror what, existed. She can put an album in the bag in two or three days if she's really nailing the tracks in that way. So these things are going to come out rapidly. And the way that she seems to be

spreading it around fearless 1989, you know, maybe like you said, she comes back to red. Then her choice is going to be between speak now and reputation. My guess is she throws a bone to the country crowd and brings out speak now. And, you know, does reputation and debut at the end, if we even get there. But the way that she releases these will be fascinating. I really think she can crank them out because of the quality of her vocal at this point. Yeah, it certainly seems like, I mean, even just that week that they were all at the Grammys seemed like it was incredibly productive. All right. So then we got a couple more questions that I'm going to lump together. One is from Ashley, who says, do you think Taylor gets enough daps for being the incredibly shrewd

businesswoman that she is? She's vertically integrated from her publishing, her management company, her trucks, buses, planes, and that gives her extraordinary control. With that, are you surprised she didn't start a full-fledged label with her new masters? She has them under TS, but her ability to taste make, look at the careers of the tour openers, would suggest some good label ability. And coach asked us the question, for a star like Taylor, what does a record label do? Will stars stop having record label deals at some point? So I think those are interesting to consider together, because if the question from Ashley

is in part about might she ever enter that space the question then becomes okay what actually is that that record label space doing going forward particularly if she has some influence on that right

I think that her decision to sign with a label was a lot like the album red in that she's bridging to where she wants to go it gives her a chance to test a bunch of things and work with some different people

and see what actually works for her. I think coach is probably right. It's not clear that labels, as they currently are construed, are going to be needed in the future. And Olivia Rodrigo, who we spoke about before, is a classic example of that, in that, not a classic, a cutting-edge example of that,

in that she put out a song on our Instagram story, and by January, it was breaking all kinds of Spotify streaming records. As we look at Fearless, as we look at the way she marketed Evermore and folklore, she did it through her Twitter and Instagram accounts. And that's basically it. So what value does the label actually provide to her? Now, the truth is, in international markets, it's helpful through a bunch of other behind-the-scenes things. The label helps her.

But with so much in flux in the music industry, I suspect she decided she wanted the infrastructure of a label now, as opposed to having to build that out for her. herself, but she's also testing the power of her own marketing, right? There's just not a lot happening with these albums that doesn't come from her. So she's watching and learning and starting to think about, can I do this on my own? Is this the right vehicle for me to curate and lift up artists? In the same way I'm doing that as I fight for the sanctity of the album, as I fight for artists to control their masters, as I fight for touring, you know, which she was starting to think about with Loverfest and ways to empower artists in other ways. What do you think,

Do you think she needs a label? Do you think, I mean, the most interesting question is how is she going to lift up other artists going forward? And would that include her signing artists to her thing? It's just hard to see her doing that if ownership of another artist's work is something she's fighting against. It's hard to see her creating a company that would do that. I could see her creating a company that markets other artists, but probably not one that takes ownership, right? Yeah, I think that's it. And I think that she could do the marketing piece of it really without, she can do that through the tentacles of just touring and involving people in what she does and bringing people up on stage, talking about them on the platforms that she already has.

To Ashley's initial, the initial part of her question, I think, I mean, I hope that as part of this podcast, she's gotten plenty of DAPs for being. the incredibly shrewd businesswoman that she is. No, I don't think that historically she has. And I also think that that's just sometimes sort of like a complicated, it's hard for an artist, right, to come out and be very forward about, look, I'm trying to be smart about the money making part of this and the control of it and identifying where they want to go and what they think is going to work.

I think that's sometimes a tough needle to thread. and I don't know that that's necessarily fair, but it gets back to what you were saying about doing film scores is that ultimately the thing that she's amazing at is writing songs and telling stories and communicating. And that's why the marketing piece of it, I think, is important because if she wanted to use some of that energy and focus it a little bit more on helping other people kind of tell their stories,

I think she'd be very effective at that. But I don't know if that's, that's, you know, she doesn't need to start her own label. You know, she can still have that impact without doing that. Agree. All right. Zach asks, what album are you guys the most excited for Vault songs for,

assuming we get them from each album? And we actually got a couple different iterations of this question. Sarah asked the same thing and said, I'm looking forward to Dear John Enchanted and others from Speak Now because her voice is so much stronger now and I think she'll be able to belt them a little bit better. And then Dave also asked, which track are you most excited to hear re-recorded?

I can't wait for clean. What's your pick? Well, the track that I'm most excited for, it's got to be all too well, right? Because is she going to give us the 10-minute version? That's the big question. Is there a bigger story than that? Yeah.

There's not a bigger story than that. Although I do think that I'm really excited for the vault songs from 1989. because based off the quality of the bonus tracks for that album, like I would take six more of those, please. Yeah, I get you. I personally don't think they exist after 1989. I think she, because of the way...

Realized that if stuff was good, find a way to put it out in the universe. Yeah, I think that's possible. Speak Now was kind of the last time that she... that she was just writing stuff entirely on her own, so a lot of these are collaborations with people, and she held back the stuff that she didn't deem worthy of the album and used it for bonus tracks.

I'd be shocked if she, like, held back, held back. But, look, I was listening to Miley Cyrus at the NCAA semifinals this weekend. And she did these rock versions. A lot of it was like Miley Cyrus' rock and roll cover band. But she also played some of her most popular songs in a very different genre than they were put out. Like in like a Gibson guitar,

black leather, rock and roll t-shirt, sunglasses, Joan Jet, 2021 format. And I will tell you that I thought it was okay and a lot of people were into it. But it reminded me that it is possible to screw this up.

We talked about trusting Taylor earlier. I trust her, but I'm nervous. It is possible to screw up some of these re-records if she doesn't do her. I mean, you just said, the Wildest Dreams horse train animated movie has you a little nervous.

Right? Yeah, well, and it's also just because it, it's not that I think that she's like screwing it up. It's just that that to me illustrates how big of a challenge this is, right? Because what I'm responding to, and again, it's just a little snippet in a trailer with hooves and a train and whatever. But what I'm responding to there, it's not that I think that she did a bad job, right? It could sound perfectly great on its own. What I'm responding to is there was a thing that I really liked on the first one. I don't hear it there.

And that's a really tough uphill battle. It's just why the re-recording challenge is so fascinating to me. It's because once people are used to a certain flavor, it is incredibly hard to get it out of their mouth. And get ready for ex-critics like Nora Princiotti to start talking about how there were moments of capture of lightning in a bottle on the early stuff that didn't get captured when she redid them.

I'm fascinated by the early stuff because I think it will benefit from her vocal abilities now. She will bring a ton to the table. We will probably hear some sub and counter melodies that were in her head at the time or exist now that she wasn't even able to communicate because the instrument wasn't crafted the way it is right now. But the question is, can she rewind the clock 20, not quite, almost 20 years and bring the same energy and vibrancy that exists on that early work. Okay, I don't like that I was invoked and name-checked in that critic portion of that statement.

I'm sorry, but you were, you have written I'm a critic pieces before. And so that is you. You and your fellow slanderers will be judged. Oh, my God. That is one of my biggest takeaways from this project is one that the Swifty community is so fun to talk to and I absolutely adore you all have a real love

for the word slander. They love the word slander. You love slander and justice for whatever song. It's so funny. And neither of them have quite as brutal a connotation as, you know, a critic who writes very erudite

pieces might otherwise think, right? Yeah, totally. No, it's very... I love how I love how language gets sort of like adopted in those specific ways. And that was just a very funny one. It's because we would get so many messages being like, love this, but you've got to stop with the with the slander on happiness or whatever. I'm like, oh my God, we're not slander.

What do you mean? But yeah, then you sort of understand. No, it's not sort of a, it's not exactly that work. But it's fine. We need to answer Tanya's question. Yeah. And this is the last one before we move on to kind of like grab bad questions. But Tanya, I love this question.

Can Fearless Taylor's version become the best. selling album of the year. What do you think? So my gut, my gut is no. Yeah, you better say that as an Evermore stand. Yes, you do. Because folklore and Evermore are going to dilute the listens and buys. Because we're still in that cycle.

People are still discovering Evermore. And they still have enough legs that I would expect they're going to dilute the amount of consumption of fearless. But, man. And then the other thing. is that if you're not, like if you're, if you're not

drinking the Kool-Aid, if you're not on our Taylor and Olivia Bender, I don't know if you're as interested in this as the fans are, right? Because I'm fascinated

to hear what it sounds like and obviously I, you know, want to be on the right side of history here. But if you are not a huge Taylor fan and you've already heard fearless,

I think, again, like consumers are fickle and there's going to be an additional hurdle of, well, I already heard this. Like, I've heard this before. I know these songs. If I want to go back and listen, I think that's tough.

I'll click Taylor's version, but right now I'm in the folklore and Evermore stage. I think a lot of people are going to say this. So I'm with you. I do not expect that this is going to chart. I don't think it's going to be in the Grammy conversation. And that's just fine. Well, because Evermore is also going to have a tough time as far as that, right?

Because folklore just won. And you've told me that that... I think you're right. I think Evermore, I mean, Nora, you made a very articulate and compelling case that Evermore is a better album than folklore. It is. And it is not going to be in the Grammy conversation, I don't expect, because just as Taylor was 0 for five heading into album of the year nominations, because the Academy and the forces behind the scenes try to spread these things out, I expect they're going to go, you know, it's the same reason like Tom Hessexie. Hank's didn't win for castaway, you know, because they're like, fuck, this guy's won tons of these Oscars. Like, we don't need, you know, we don't need to pile them on them. Let's give it to

somebody else. So I think there's going to be some spreading around of the love on this one that that will negatively affect Evermore. And you know what? If we're being brutally honest with ourselves, Taylor has had a relatively good end of the Grammy stick. Red, we can debate. But she's had a good end of the Grammy stick in the aggregate. And it's totally. okay. It's okay. Just as Forevermore. That was ever more slander. All right. We're going to go a little rapid fire

with the rest of these, but I think these are super fun. Let's go. So, folklore at Cardigan underscore Swift asks us. Great handle. Who knows who that is? Honestly, like, that was an early adopter. Is that Andrea's, is that Andrea's burner account? Well, if it is, she asked, if you could re-experience hearing any of

Taylor's albums for the first time again, which would you choose? My answer is 1989. Wow. Tell me why. What did it feel like? I just want to get hit by the glitter bomb again, you know? Huh. Yeah, and I had an amazing experience hearing 1989 for the first time, but the feeling in me that still resonates and always will is walking by these gaggles of teenage girl soccer players

huddled up with an iPhone on speaker playing. We are never, ever getting back together. For me, it was hearing red and going, something is happening here. It's like giving me chills just thinking about it. You're right. That's a really good one. I just think, I don't know.

I just, if I could wipe 1989 from my memory, and I think that's the one where I would just have that experience of like, this sounds so good. All right. Rapid fire. What's each of your favorite three to four song stretches from any album? I'm between blank space style out of the woods or Paper rings, Cornelia Street, death by a thousand cuts.

Eddie, those are good ones. They're really good. They're really good. I mean, there's recency bias for me in this one, because right now for me, it's gold rush tis the damn season and tolerate it. But I could easily land where Eddie was. Do you have something different? So I also wrote down gold rush, tis the damn season,

tolerate it, nobody, no crime. Or even Ivy Cowboy Lake, Mealong's very short, Marjorie. They're like, like, evermore is so good. But the other one. is treacherous. I knew you were trouble. All too well, 22. I knew it.

I knew you were going to do that. It's really good. Powerhouses. And that's the part of red where like I love how it's flip-flopping you back and giving you the emotional roller coaster. Yeah. All right.

Okay. That's a very, very good answer. David asks, what's the Taylor Swift song or album that is most attached to a particular time or emotional journey for you. Look, it's folklore and quarantine. I mean, 1989, it came out and it felt like anything was possible.

I just felt always that that was just a timeless album when I heard it and sort of a generation-defining one for me, but not my generation, but just like a moment in time. But I just think the intersection of folklore and quarantine will always be. For me, it's speak now, my third year of high school. And just like the number of important friendships and relationships and stuff that I processed through that album. I think I already knew it was significant. And then having done this, going back, being like, I bonded with my best friend over that album.

And like this happened and this happened and this happened. And do you think about that every time you hear the song? Like if it comes on and you're in a bar or coffee shop, do you go back to those places emotionally? Yeah, most of them. Some of them, because Speak Now is those open letters. Like, Dear John, that doesn't happen. Dear John is the story of Dear John. I have too much context with it and it's too potent for it to be like, it's not about me. You know, it's that that's totally absent. But like, if I hear haunted, I am on a run in the rain like a mile away from my high school campus. even like better than revenge I think of just sort of like singing with my friends so yeah a lot of the stuff on that album it does do that for me

and then the other one that I have is just new romantics oh boy here we go really like I was listening to that song a lot in like 2017 when I was like that song was just a real song for me like entering the workforce and becoming an adultish okay whatever. You don't even give me an inch on this song. It's so annoying.

I did. We're moving on. All right. Shelby. Shelby. Asks what Easter egg do you still want an answer to? I need her to explain the mystery Taylor in the look what you made me do music video where she cuts off the airplane wing. Great pull, Shelby. Mine is the hawk noise. Yeah, you really are obsessed with the hawk noise right now. I need to know. Yeah. For me, it's anxiety that I've missed some. shit. So I need her to tell us what eggs she laid that we all missed.

I also need her to tell us what eggs she didn't lay, but she just happens to play in a consistent enough, like, referential and aesthetic pool that there

was a connection drawn that looked purposeful that wasn't actually. I mean, my kingdom for a fly-on-the-wall set of videos about them crafting the vault Easter egg that she tweeted? Like, do you think, like, how did they make a decision

about how difficult to make that? She called it expert level difficult. But that shit was solved in about six minutes, max, online. So my question is just, like, could she get even more complicated? I mean, from here, she's going to need physicists and major,

like, I don't know. What else could she do to actually confuse the most hardcore fans? I don't know. Maybe she'll start like speaking in tongues. Who's to say? Good idea. Yes. Like you have to solve a every album comes with a Rubik's Cube. She's probably learned Russian while reading the Rebecca book or whatever. Yeah, honestly. She's a secret agent. All right. What is your Natasha? What's your favorite example of Tay repeating a lyric but subtly changing it? E.G. I should have known to you should have known dear John. Also, who is more nervous about a potential longer version of all too well? Maggie, Jake's publicist. or Shamrock.

Okay, these are great questions, and I need to hear your answer on the first one, because you, in particular, through the course of this journey, have articulated such a love for her turn of phrase. So I'm dying to hear your answer. Well, and I hope this is not disappointing because my answer is the same one

that was included in the question. It's Dear John. Yeah. I mean, for me, we got some disappointment in the quote-unquote slander of Archer. We did not slander Archer, but I will tell you, I see right through me, they see right through me, you see right through me.

I love that she did that. That felt like a very, very vulnerable moment that came right after the man. So, then I ask you who is more nervous about a potential longer version of all too well? Is it Maggie Jillon Hall? Is it Jake's publicist? Or is it Shamrock Holdings? I don't know why Jake Jillenhall isn't D as an option here because who knows. Okay, but what about E?

what about E, which is the next person who has to interview Jake after that comes out and feel journalistically obligated to bring it up and then just like face the wrath that seems to ensue every time this stuff comes up. Jimmy Kimmel is worried about this. Well, what's the answer?

You think it's Maggie because you really believe she's been lying to us all this time about the scarf. Okay, no, I think it's probably, I mean, I think it's probably Shamrock because everybody else has the opportunity to just like get over it, guys. Yeah.

But. I'm surprised he didn't say Maggie. on that, but I don't think Jake wants anything to do with this. And Jake's publicist, therefore, is his proxy, doesn't want anything to do with this. They have not enjoyed this since it came out. And that's why we need her to do this. Bryn has a very interesting question about who her best muse is, right? Yeah. So who is her best muse, Joe Jonas, Harry Styles, Joe Alwyn, et cetera, or perhaps not a person. And there's the second part of this question, too, that we kind of handled. So let's just talk about the boys.

It's Joe. It's Joe. It's Joe. Joe Alwyn, not Jonas. Yes, it's Joe Alwyn. He's perfect. He's handsome. He's an actor. He's a songwriter.

He's humble and out of the spotlight. He's perfect. He's the best muse. Okay. Just going to leave that there. But somebody else asked Harry versus Jake, and I think that's a really tough one. So let's call Harry.

Like if I give you, I know places style and out of the woods. or all too well, we are never ever getting back together and the moment I knew, where are you going? I think it's Harry.

Wow, I think it's Jake. All too well. Sorry we can't be friends. Yeah, I know. You get all too well, but there's some mystery in it. There's something about the shiving of Jake that, I don't know,

there's still some mystery in the hairy stuff and really after the conversation that we saw at the Grammys after she won for folklore, there's still some semblance of, you know, cordiality there. So I don't know. It's tough. I mean, that's why I asked is because it's, that's really, really, really tough.

But I just, I don't know, I feel like all too well. Hey, by the way, can we just say, I think there's some debate over I knew you were trouble and who that's actually about. Okay, no. And people did point this out and feel strongly about it. I think there's some question as to when they started. I think the timeline is pretty hard to say that that song could be about Harry,

but I think that Taylor has played into the possibility that it could be. Yes, and those are facts. We try not to speculate too much outside of the facts, but those are facts. And it is absolutely okay to say that it is ambiguous over who this is about. What is also a fact is that Rachel asked us, Rachel Taylor's version, I should say, now that you're at the end, are there any albums you'd rate differently? did anything you discussed or discovered on a later album episodes change your opinion on previous ones. Where are you on this?

So I alluded to this earlier. Speak Now just crushes. And Fearless, Fearless is amazing to me for the experience that it was. I'm not sure that, like, not that many of my favorite songs come from Fearless. And so many of my favorite songs come from Speak Now. The other thing that I feel about this is 1989. is every bit as good as people presented it as. Like that was another one of my takeaways,

was just like, this thing was everything everyone said it was. Yeah, I will say that I learned a ton about reputation. Reputation is a litmus test for how fans approach Taylor Swift. And what is beautiful about reputation is there are about 10 different doors that people walk through to access that. album. And some people hated the first half and loved the second half like me at the time. Some people loved it from the outset. And some of those early songs, look what you made me do and ready for it.

And even end game, like that's their most favorite part of the Taylor Swift catalog. And that's what is so cool about this songwriter and about that album in particular. It just, it is a prism that shows you so many different colors in the rainbow based on your unique specific taste, but all of it leads you to this album in some way, shape, or form. I love that journey for you. I think it was wonderful that you were able to go on, go on that as we went through the journey here. Okay, Colleen Murphy, who was my editor and chief of my college newspaper, so we have to answer her question. Oh, my God. Colleen asked what our favorite bridge is. And for her, by the way,

She says today it's, I think he knows, which is an interesting bridge. Yeah, that's a very interesting choice. You have said through the course of this podcast that you stay on a bridge. So what is it? You're going to hate mine. Okay. I think I know what it is. All too well is kind of, let's even sort of take that out of the discussion because that's the all-timer.

Cruel summer is just a bridge to end all bridges, I feel. But maybe a slightly underappreciated one that I think we should shout out, treacherous. What do you think mine is? I think it's out of the woods. You are right! Yes! You know me. Yes. Yes.

Bingo. It is. Because it sets up the back part of that song, which is so good with the descending vocals, and this is rapid fire, so we got to keep moving. So I can't even argue. All right, fine.

Procrastinator 18 asks, so let's assume that the plot of yesterday, that movie where every Beatle song gets erased from everyone's collective memory except from the main characters. Have us with Taylor and you're the only one who remembers it. Which song would you make or rewrite first and why? It's such a good question.

I have the weakest answer for, but I do exactly what Taylor did. This made me realize why she did Love Story. Because I don't think everything else in the career and in the catalog happens without Love Story. I think it's the most accessible. I think it just is sort of universal. And I didn't totally get why we heard Love Story

in a MASH.com. commercial as she re-recorded, but when forced to answer this question, the answer's love story. You know what? I had the exact same thing. Yes. Nora, we are totally alive. Oh my God. We're like really synced up right now. We should do, they should make a game. How well do you know your co-host? Wait till all hell breaks loose with the song draft. Yeah, we're about to fight. All right. Well, we have our last question before we start, you know, ripping each other to shreds. From Kaylee, top three music videos and top three songs that you wish got a music video. What is it?

All right. So I cheated. I'm just realizing I meant to narrow mine down to three. I did five music videos. Come on, man. We are never getting back together. Look what you made me do. Picture to burn and the man.

Oh. Well, you have to pick three. And it's important that you pick three because we have some areas of overlap and some areas of extreme disagreement. Okay. I think it's so blank space is definitely on there. I think we are never and look what you made me do. Hmm. No, blank space, look what you made me do and the man.

Those are my final choices. Okay. So, we agree on the man. The man is a awesome video. It's insane what she did. There's so many Easter eggs. She's pelting her father with tennis balls in the groin. It's awesome.

And just like fully man spreading on the subway? Yeah. Just great touches than that one. Yes, working with a like douchebag dude behavioral coach. Like somebody actually exists who can teach you how to act like a douchebag guy physically with your mannerism.

So shout out of her 20s. Well, let me just tell you that I'm disappointed you left off we are never ever getting back together because that video rules and it includes animal costumes and it is super fun. And it is super fun.

I just don't know how you can leave bad blood off. I don't know how you can leave it off. I just don't like that song very much. So that's how I can leave it off. I know. And I'm just telling you, I think that the video is an amazing representation of something that's much more than the song. All right.

Well, three songs I wish got a music video. I know places. No body, no crime. Getaway car. Real theme to those picks. Wait. You didn't pick Cruel Summer? No.

What are we even doing here? It's Cruel Summer, cruel summer, and cruel summer. That's the answer to that question. Cruel Summer sounds amazing and has some... But you like the story elements of getaway car. Like, you want to see her with guns and a bandana around her face, stealing a bank.

That's not what I would say. But, yeah, I can just, I can picture. the story and like the ties were black, the lies were white. Like, there's just so much fun that you're out with that. But cruel summer is a great one, especially because that bridge is an example of where I'm like, she could write to movies so perfectly because the story of that is very cinematic to me. Nora.

But you're, you're just sticking to cruel summer, cruel summer, cruel summer, cruel summer. You don't want to throw out a second or third option? No, you have broken the rules so many times in these games. I'm sticking the cruel summer. Whatever. Whatever. It's fine. All right.

Well, that was our mailbag. Thanks everybody for writing in. I'm like trying to make it through this podcast without crying. But I hope you'll continue to talk to us about Taylor. Yeah, the conversation continues. All right. Well, it's time to throw down. And I will say that Nathan has been kind enough to give me the honor of the first pick in our Taylor Swift songs draft.

That is the last nice thing that you will hear me say about him on this podcast because now we are enemies, we are adversaries. we are trying to assemble the strongest lineup, the best collection of talent of Taylor Swift songs in a 10-song roster. Bring it on. Okay, you're so going down. I've put a lot of work into this.

Also, I have a curveball for you at the end, but go ahead. Okay. We are each going to draft 10 songs, right? And are there any rules here? Are we trying to just create an album that we feel good about? Or these are like 10 best songs, let's go. 10 best songs.

Okay. You're not going to look at the catalog. It's not going to be like the way you evaluated, you know, lover versus folklore. First of all, you are the album versus collection of songs. You are the album originalist on this podcast. I agree. I'm just curious. I just want to make sure I answer the question.

No, it doesn't. I am not envisioning this as there being points for like cohesion or order. Just points for awesomeness. Okay. Awesomeness, awesomeness. Okay. With the number one pick in the direction. You on the clockboard.

With the first pick in the draft, I am selecting all too well. Shit! You shouldn't have given me the first pick. Uh, well, that's fine. I'm going to take girl at home. Stop it. Okay, so my answer here... You're stalling because you have no idea what to do.

No, I know what to do. I mean, there is some strategy here when you're going head to head because I actually have to think about things that you're going to take. I'm going to be so mad. Oh, God. I'm taking getaway car. All right. That's a nice pick. And I love getaway car because I just think it sounds awesome. So with my next pick, I'm going to take another song that fits that mold. Cruel summer. No, that's what I was afraid you were going to take. Ha ha! Ha ha! Suck it! I was going to take cruel summer to keep you from getting it. But then I did it first. This is horrible. Drafting well is all about knowing your opponent, knowing the board,

knowing how the board is going to fall, Nathan Hubbard. God damn it. Give me love story. Ooh, okay. Yeah, okay. I got to fight differently now. I'm taking Ivy. Oh, I can't stop you putting roots in my dreamland.

My house is stone. Your Ivy grows and now I'm covered. Okay. Okay. Now, I agree that was on my list. but I feel like you just gave me an opening here, and I need to make sure that I do well with it. And I'm going to do well with it

by drafting one that's going to really hurt you. Oh, God. Stop. And it's call it what you want. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Yes. It's call it what you want. Yes. Yes. All right. Well, that was a tough. That's tough for the strength of my roster. But I'm going to go next. I'm taking blank space. Okay. That doesn't hurt me so much. I know how much you love that song.

Okay, well, it should. Well, we should have done a snake draft where you got the first and I got the next two and then we went one, one, and one. But... Okay, well, we didn't. We didn't. Okay. So blank space is off the table. you have a very interesting. You have chosen a song from a different album

in each of your picks here. I'm going to tell you that it's, God, this is really hard for me. Please give me, we are never, ever getting back together. Thank you. Okay.

That's okay. You can have it. I am taking dear John. Yeah, I was going to do that, but I knew that that would really hurt your feelings. You're not... You didn't not do that because you were going to hurt my feelings. Well, I did...

Look, I thought maybe you wouldn't... We played a win. Yeah. I mean, you have two of the big track fives, which is hard. You have all too well and dear John. So people think that you're beating me right now, and I'm okay with that.

I really am because I just got... Maybe it's putting on a clinic in expectation setting. This is like what PR people for presidential candidates are supposed to do before debates. It's just like define victory in the lowest possible terms. I will not stand for this. Well, it's fine. I'm happy for you to have blank space off 1989 because I just took style. God, that hurts. That hurts. That hurts. Yeah. Yeah. Really hurts. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm okay with that pain. You need to feel it. And you need to tell me what the sixth pick is because now we're halfway through.

And at this point, you have all too well, cruel summer, Ivy, blank space, dear John, I have getaway car, we are never ever getting back together, call it what you want, love story, and style. I'm feeling okay right now. Just going to say it. All right.

Now, oh, God, you don't draft because someone gets your competitive juices flowing, but now you're putting me a mood. Are you about to draft a kicker? You're about to draft a kicker. What are you taking? Go. Is death by a thousand cuts a kicker? I still flickering here

because I can't pretend it's okay when it's not Get the hell out of here. No way. You doing that just to hurt me. That's an awful thing to do to your friend. You goaded me. You made that happen.

You got to understand the board. You know, this is not on my list, but I'm taking new romantics. I'm taking new romantics. You don't even like that song. You don't even like that song. I know. How could you take death out from under me?

I love death by a thousand cuts. Well, feel it because I just took new romantics. You know what? You need to listen to it so that you'll fully appreciate it. Whatever. So I'm happy. I'm happy for you guys. I hope you have a wonderful time together.

Thanks. And this is what I should have said the first time that Bill texted us to connect us. Okay. I knew you were trouble. Which is my next pick. Okay. Interesting. You got We Are Never.

If you got We Are Never, I needed to get one of those. Yeah. No, I understand that. So that leaves me in a very difficult position. Because there's a song that there are two songs that I love that I don't think that you're going to take. And so I am going to step in here and I'm going to take Delicate. Darn it. Okay.

I need a track five, and so I'm taking Delicate. And I just want to point out that I now have three songs from Reputation, an album that I gave a B-plus. So my face is melting. But it's your turn to draft the eighth song. And we have three left. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is a toughie. This is a toughie. I'm taking tis the damn season. Oh! We could call it even. You could call me eight for you. Okay, that's fine. That's fine.

We can survive this. We can survive this. Look, my problem is I had a bunch from Evermore, and so, ugh. But you put me in a position now. The psychological warfare of this is I have to take this as me trying now, because you might take it with your next pick just to get at me for new romantics. So I'm taking this as me trying. We have two songs each left.

There is a lot here. Nora, may I just point out that you have some work to do here to catch up? I just want to say that. So with two songs left, what is your pick? I'm taking Enchanted. I knew that was coming. I mean, you picked the Al City Guy song with the ninth pick in the draft. That's like the Al City guy.

guy always gets drafted second to last in everything. Basketball games, everything. He's Mr. Irrelevant. Yeah, I mean, I appreciate that you just fleshed out the roster. That was an honest pick. There was no vengeance in that in the way that, oh, man, I have two left. This is hard. Yeah, it gets really hard. This is hard because now I don't have enough songs. I mean, you know, what do you think I want to draft here? I have two songs. Let's see how well you know me through this whole journey.

What do you think I'm, you know that I want to add out of the woods. You know that. And you've nicely left it alone for me. It's hard. It's hard here. I am going to step in. I think you are, so what I think you're doing is I think you know you need some earlier stuff. Right.

But you also have just like a slew of Evermore. Yeah. No, that's exactly what's happening right now. And my face hurts. Can I be honest with you? I'm taking Better Man. Wow. Okay. That song is so good. It is so good. I'm taking Better Man. I am proud of it. I'm kind of jealous that you did. You know what? That's like, that's the Division 2 prospect that gets drafted high and everybody's confused. But then he turns out.

and everybody's confused, but then he turns, okay, better man is, don't say that about better man. Sorry. But who turns into like a perennial all pro? I love that pick. Okay. I'm not afraid, you know what? I'm not afraid to say that to you. That's a great pick.

Thank you, Nor. Nor, you have one song left to pick. This is it. Your last pick was enchanted. You pick the Al City guy. It's almost like you're running out of ideas, but you have one more to go. Come on. What do you have?

You know what? I'm going to be true to myself here. I'm going to stick to my guns. I'm going to stick to my scouting reports. Yeah. I'm taking I know places. Well, that guy was still going to be on the... You could assign that as a free agent.

And I know that, but I love that song, and I want to acknowledge it. Okay. I'm going to be honest with you and tell you that I have five songs that are on my list that are still available, and I'm struggling with what to pick. It's either out of the woods aforementioned. You belong with me. back to December, tolerate it, or peace, which you know holds just like a very special place in my heart.

I think I know what you're going to pick. I can't let this draft go without taking out of the woods. The song matters to me. I knew it. I knew it. I knew that's what you're going to do. Yeah. I just, I have to do it. And there's all kinds of reasons to make a case for others, but that's it. So, Nora, we've picked 10 songs each. Now.

Yeah, you want to read me, or it's top to bottom. Tell me your team. My team is style, getaway car. We are never, ever getting back together. Call it what you want. This is me trying. Love story. Better man, delicate, out of the woods.

And just to friggin' spite my partner, New Romantics. You're so mean. I can't. Will you invite me over to listen to it? Well, read me your list and then I'm going to throw you a curveball. All right. My list is all too well. Cruel Summer.

Ivy. God damn it. Flank space. Dear John. Death by a thousand cuts. I knew you're in trouble. Tis the damn season. Enchanted and I know places.

Okay. Now here's the game. This is not a hold hand. It is you can steal two of my songs. but then I get to steal two of yours. Go. You can have new romantics. No, no blocking.

But I can't. You cannot block. But my roster is better than yours. Oh my gosh. All right, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. I want new romantics. Yes. And getaway car.

Okay. And I want all too well in cruel summer. So I think I'm very surprised that you let new romantics fall that far But I think you didn't expect Such a bitter, spiteful, mean-spirited move

from me in response to your death by a thousand cuts. Thiefed. I love death by a thousand cuts. I'm like, you're right. You're right. I'm going to be honest with you. I'm going to be honest with you of how cut-throat I was about this.

I am staring at an Excel spreadsheet of every Taylor Swift song in ranked order, not perfect ranked order, because I did the song's order and then I adjusted it based on where I thought it got things wrong. And then I put a note, I added a notes column where I identified songs that you love that I could try to thwart your attempted acquisition of. I can't believe you did that. It's gorgeous on there. So the C column is, does Nathan love it? And then I have a couple of things that are checked. Okay. Well, I feel like you did very well with this. That's how you play to win.

I feel like you did very well with this, but I am very proud of my team. So I just would encourage everybody else at home to find a way to play this because you need a partner and you need a partner who has some overlap in the Venn diagram of songs you like and some that you don't. Because then you can do things like steal new romantics. You might have drafted a better team, but you have to live with the fact that new romantics plays for team, Nathan. Okay, but you wanted, here's why, here's why I just. won this, you stole my top two picks. And everybody knows, if you hit on your top picks, that's the best way to get to build a good team quickly. Yeah. And you wanted my top

two picks. Just saying. Yeah. Well, you're welcome for the first pick. Good job. Please, everybody, if you do this and find a buddy and fight it out, like send us your teams because I want to see. Yeah, but finish it with love. All right. Well, we will be back. Once more when we have heard Fearless Taylor's version. But until then, Nathan and I are in a fight. Forever. Evermore. This has been every single album, Taylor Swift.

For Nathan Hubbard, I'm Nora Pryanti. This has been so much fun. We will be back one more time on Monday at breaking down Fearless Taylor's Version.