Every Single Album - ‘Man’s Best Friend’ | Every Single Album: Sabrina Carpenter

Episode Date: September 4, 2025

A year after ‘Short n' Sweet’, Nora and Nathan are back to break down Sabrina Carpenter’s seventh studio album, ‘Man’s Best Friend’! They decide whether "Manchild" was the song of the summer and share their thoughts on the band-like production team behind the album (00:42). They talk about Sabrina’s second single from the album, “Tears,” accompanied by a music video featuring Colman Domingo, and break down the proceeding songs on the album (33:46). They share their favorite lyrics, Easter eggs, innuendos, and breaking of the fourth wall, and try to understand the musical inspirations behind the instrumentation. Finally, they grade the album and predict where Sabrina could go from here (67:35). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producers: Olivia Crerie and Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you had to pick just one album to define the 21st century so far, what would it be? I'm Cole Kushna from Dissect. And I'm Charles Holmes from The Midnight Boys. And on Tuesday, July 29th, Cole and I are launching season four of Last Song Standing. But this year, we're mixing things up. Instead of searching for an artist's greatest song, we're asking an even bigger question. What is the greatest album of the 21st century so far? Listen to Last Song Standing on the Dissect podcast feed or the Dissect YouTube channel starting Tuesday, July 29th.

every single album. I'm Nora Prenciatti, and I am joined, as always. It's not Tommy from Arkansas. It's Nathan from California. Nathan Hubbard. Happy Sabrina Day. How are we doing? You know what? I think I understand the album cover a bit better now, Nora. Do you want to elaborate on that? I don't know, man. Here's the thing about that cover. Okay, Sabrina is perhaps our ultimate jiu-jitsu warrior in music. Like she uses strength and aggression against her opponent. She uses their energy and force against them. Yes.

And boys will be boys, but Sabrina is always in control. And I think that is actually what that album cover is about. She's a total jiu-jitsu master. Okay, so just walk me through the close read a little bit on a slightly deeper level. She's in control because even though on the album cover, she's being held up by the hair. She controls the response. Okay, interesting. Yeah, she controls the response.

She gives where she wants to give, but she gives the things that she doesn't, she gives the battle to win the war. constantly. I think she's a jujitsu master in a couple senses. One, because she, metaphorically, will fucking kill you. One thing that I continue to enjoy about her just so much is the incredibly high percentage of Sabrina Carpenter songs, at least recently, really just boil down to threats. I think that's really special. But to me, the cover, and we're talking about man's best friend. We're talking about Sabrina Carpenter's seventh album, even though there are certain. features of this album that really feel like this sophomore effort because coming after short and sweet it does put this in a in a different spot for her up to this point of her career.

We should remember that this is still her seventh studio album. It's to me she is in control, but to me it's more about here's this album cover. She knows it's going to get a response. The response is all about like what is Sabrina Carpenter doing? Is Sabrina Carpenter? Is she kink shaming? Is she engaging in harmful tradwife culture? Is this feminist?

Is this anti-feminist? And then it's like, hey, guys, this is actually a picture. Yes, she is centered in it. This is a photograph of a man holding a woman by the hair. And we're asking what the lady's doing? That's what's like. So to me, it's, I don't know. It's, she's playing with that.

a little bit, but I certainly agree that she's in control of the response. If more dudes listen to this music, she'd be getting shit for being, you know, anti-man. But the problem is, she's too smart and too funny to be fucked with. You just can't come at her for this. I mean, all, like, and if you do, do so at your own peril. It is really, this album is really like Sabrina Carpenter takes on the male loneliness epidemic or like the plight of the the gen z man trying to forge romantic relationships and if they're mothers to be believed sure and their mother's mostly failing at it i don't know if that's

like i don't know if that's the first way that she would describe wanting people to think about it but that was definitely one of the one of the levels on which i processed i for sure i she has absolute ownership of smart, horny corner. And that is the question about the character that is Sabrina Carpenter. And I do believe that there was a lot of chatter about this album online. And some of it, I think, was there was some leaking or at least some claiming of some leaking and there are some competing fan bases that just throw shit in the ring to create drama. there are a lot of bots that take, I mean, again, if you are on social media and in particular,

if you are on Twitter, you need to be taking what you see with a grain of salt right now, because there are literally armies of foreign countries that have decided they're just going to foment shit in the United States around cultural things because they think it's good to fuck with us. And they are unequivocally doing it. You can pull the thread. They are unequivocally doing it around meaningful artist. releases right now. And so a lot of the shit that you see of people talking crap about Taylor Swift or

Sabrina Carpenter or Ariana Grande or like they know that this riles up the stand fan bases and they're injecting this in to the conversation. But I still came away from a lot of the online chatter. Like it started there was some, oh, is this album good? Is this album bad? I think this album expands the character that is Sabrina Carpenter. It grows her. cinematic universe. And I think this album is like cinematic in its own way. And I think the only thing that I get left with after listening to this is how long can she keep running with this sexual innuendo, smart, horny, clever, self-deprecating, but always in control and confident. How many seasons of that show, or in this case, albums of that character?

can be played from here. Yeah, it's interesting that you feel like this album expands that character or that sort of idea that she, I think, has worked with on the last two albums. To me, it refines it. And I guess I use that because there are certain things about this album that feel a little, you could say smaller than short and sweet, but you could also say tighter, actually. And to me, it comes off as a positive more than a negative. and that's compared to one of my favorite albums of last year, which was short and sweet.

Whereas I think some of the chatter is disingenuous and we don't need to talk about it. Like to address anything within that that is more on the valid side, I guess I think that that album short and sweet and particularly espresso, right? It did put this album in a really tough spot. For sure. It's a year later. It hasn't been that long. She honed this incredibly clear identity of what she does. And not only is that smart and funny corner, it is also mega, mega hit parade corner. And I don't really get the sense that while this is a very, it's a very poppy album, it's a very fun album. It's an incredibly listenable album. I think it's actually more listenable top to bottom than short and sweet. It doesn't to me sound like something that. was created with the intent of swinging for the fences mega hit wise in the same that that in the same way that that last album did.

And I think to- Can I tell you something? Please. Manchild is streaming 2.2 times as much as espresso right now. That doesn't mean it's a bigger hit. That baffles me. But it doesn't- It's a big fucking song. So what do I, what do I?

It just didn't change culture the way espresso did. feel like it. Yeah, it just doesn't feel like it. Because you felt Sabrina's rise in the moment. And now she's here. And we sort of expected a big song. You and I have not gotten to do our song of the summer pod, our long-lost song of the summer pod that we're never going to end up doing

because Taylor Swift keeps fucking with us. But if we had, we would have said unequivocally that one of the five candidates, I think was Manchild. But on the flip side of that, part of the reason that that pod even was a kernel of an idea at one point before Taylor Swift and her love story trampled all over it, I'm just kidding, was that there is a whole discourse out there. And every publication, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, wired, slate, the guardian, like everywhere has done some version.

And I actually wrote a little bit about this this week for The Ringer. has done some version of, there is no song of the summer. Right. So even though people are listening to Manchild that much, there is this universal, like, sense that it wasn't that. Yeah. And I agree.

But it is kind of curious, right? Because do you think that it is truly the only reason for that is just the perception when it was espresso that we were witnessing novelty, the rise of something, something new that had not existed prior. And then Manchild, it might be every bit as juicy and hokey and earwormy of a song. But without that newness factor, people just don't perceive it in the same way. Manchild did 4.8 million streams on Spotify yesterday.

Espresso did 2.1 million. Please, please, please did 1.4 million. Tastes did 1.3. Yeah. I mean, it is. Big ass song. It is a big, it's a big song. Also, there is part of it that, you know, there haven't been a lot of other entries.

So I do think that there's a, there's an absence of competition to some degree. Also, it's a new album. It's funny. Part of where I'm coming from here is all the things that we just talked about. Manchild, I actually have liked the most now that I've heard the rest of the album. That song never did it for me. A lot of these songs. Yeah.

Yeah, it did it for you a lot more, which is sort of why I'm asking you about it so much. But I do think despite that, I think just perception-wise, this was always going to be an album that came out in some ways in a really advantageous position for her, right? Like, oh my God, it's Sabrina Carpenter. She gave us the most fun music of last year and we get some more again. Sweet. And then also because people do insist on playing the comparison game, us, included sometimes, it was always going to be in some ways impossible to clear the bar set by

short and sweet. I think that's fair. I mean, let's talk about what this album is. I think it is pretty close to the all-star team of our pop creators. And that is Jack Antonoff, that is songwriter Amy Allen, that is John. Ryan of the last four One Direction albums and Sabrina Carpenter, who Jack Antonoff, who knows a thing or two about pop voices, is repeatedly posting that Sabrina is the voice of her generation. Now, I don't know whether or not we all have to agree on that, but the point is that's a term of

respect. And this album sounds like those four people in a room in a flow state, creating as current and as polished and as thoughtful pop music as can be created. And I think you are exactly right, which is that there is Manchild and there's just about everything else on this album. And that doesn't mean everything else is bad. It is a great listen front to back. I was duly impressed with this album,

but I did come away thinking, with one exception that we'll talk about, and I hope they go for it, that the album doesn't have a song that could go stratospheric. Taste is terrific. I have seen text messages from... Sorry, thank you. Tears is terrific. Great taste is terrific.

Great songs. Tears is terrific. It has so much innuendo that I think is going over the head of like the 11-year-old cousins in my family who are sending me texts about how much they love it. Great. That's great.

But I'm not totally sure. I just, I think there are what I remember about. What do these text, wait, hold on, what do these text messages say? Like lots of O's in It's So Good. Like S with 10 O's and good with 14 O's. That's great. That's good family fun. What I remember about Short and Sweet.

Now, if I were Sabrina Carpenter, I would have made a joke about 14 O's, but this is a family friendly podcast. Sometimes it is. I mean, we're going to have to do best lyric, and we're going to have to talk about some of the... I mean, this is... I mean, it's just an insane sexual innuendo. Like, the metaphor from top to bottom on this thing is ridiculous.

But despite what she claims, it's not tongue-in-cheek, of course. But this album, I think it... I feel like Sabrina Carpenter is... When I heard Short and Sweet, we already had... Please, please, please. And we already had espresso. Yes. But there were at least four holy shit moments for me when I heard the rest of the album.

Juno. Juno. Juno. I just like. Yeah. What? Yep. You know I just.

Sharpest tool. Sharpest tool for me was like, what is this? Like a very, like I bought it hook line and singer from start to finish. But it was quiet. And it just was so interesting from a musicality standpoint. You're confused and I'm upset. I still think good graces is like the one that got away. Sure.

One of the most underrated songs that to me is just like, holy shit, I want to listen to this over and over and over again. And I think for no other reason that was just such a hit parade of an album. Some songs like that almost feel like deep cuts. Yeah. I mean, Juno now is outstreaming almost everything on that album. Like, that is the one that they should. She put that 10th on the album.

And we'll get, I think there is a parallel song on this record. Okay. Now I think that you and I are coming at this from a, you and I are not coming at this from the same place vis-a-vis man child and everything else. I'm starting to get the sense that you and I are in agreement on something. Yeah, no, we are. We are.

I can't wait to confirm this, but I think that's right. Yeah. But like it had holy shit moments, short and sweet did. This album is a holy shit if you just step back and you hadn't heard short and sweet. You'd approach this and go, I hear all the tricks. I hear the key change. I hear the tempo slowing down. I hear the jack bending of the notes.

I hear the syncopated synths. I hear the injection of some Nashville country stuff throughout. I hear like it is. perfectly constructed. It is thoughtful. It is like some of our best pop creators in flow state, for sure. And outside of Manchild and maybe one other, I don't know that it has that song or those moments where you're like,

whoa, did I just get moved and I got to run that back? On the other hand, I do think this is the kind of album because of the people who made it, that the more you play it, the more it's going to slowly. dig its hook. It might dig it. It's the more it's going to dig its hooks into you. No, this is the exact type of album that three years from now, people who are really big Sabrina Carpenter fans where she's one of their favorites are going to be, you know, give them

one glass of wine. And it's let me tell you why man's best friend is actually the best Sabrina Carpenter record. And it's because it will reward those listens while still be. being, this is not a tough sell, right? No. It is still, it is fizzy, it is fun. It is, you know, you and I differ a little bit on some of the change of pace songs on short and sweet. Not that I'm not impressed by them, but for instance, like, I'm very impressed by the song, lie to girls.

Like, I think it's a very well-written song. I never listen to it. I will listen to it. to everything on this all the time. Like it doesn't have any skips. It doesn't have any skips if you're just trying to keep it light. It is really consistent from start to finish. And I think that will reward the project over time.

But I don't like the ballads on here as much, I will say. I like the ballads on Short and Sweet better. Sure. Yeah, I don't even know if I disagree with that. It's just that they don't distract me quite as much. No, because there's consistency across this. It's four people in the room. It's like it's a band.

Yeah. It's like it's a band. And some of the instrumentation on the ballads, even if the songs don't click for me totally, it's really good. And you can tell that they just worked really, really hard getting a lot of live musicians and a lot of rooms and making things sound just pretty impeccable.

Yeah. There's another thing point that I just want to make about this album that comes against the back. of some other stuff that I've been listening to and that we haven't talked as much about on this album, or on this podcast yet. But like, my general sense is that we're definitely in an age where, like, in broad strokes,

we've run out of massively new creative musical ideas. Like the chord constructs from 1950s rock until today, all the way through pop, like, they've been done. You can hear a thing we do on this podcast a lot and a thing that we'll do a few times today, I'm sure, is point out how songs sound like stuff we've heard before. And so I've sort of been kind of wondering, like, what is the next pocket of innovation in pop music?

And the easy thing is, hey, through AI and general technology sounds and the sort of computer-generated sounds, and Jack has been at the forefront of this in a lot of ways, is going to be a source of innovation. We're going to start to hear, it may be the same chord progressions, but they're going to be new sounds and that's going to be interesting. But what I sort of missed and what is come to a head here, almost not starting with Brat,

but I almost think slightly in reaction to Taylor Swift's lyricism, is the way in which our pop stars are now matching lyrics with music, but I don't even really think they're writing lyrics anymore. It's almost like Taylor is going to be the last of the great lyricist, and we have people now who are writing dialogue. And Brat was dialogue. And this new Audrey Hobert record, who is the sort of clearly a very significant influence

in Gracie Abrams writing. They're writing together, and you can hear a lot of Gracie songs on this Audrey Hobert record, who's the clown. It is really dialogue. And it's the, it's the, it's, speaking to people, it's resonating with people, maybe yes for the musicality of it, but more so really for the words and the way of speaking. And, you know, this Audrey record, she talks about, like there's

a song where she's talking about Uber Five Stars. It's just so current in the way that people speak. And I think both literally and figuratively, this Sabrina Carpenter record is a mouthful. And she is putting a lot of dialogue. against music. And it feels in that way current and something to pay attention to because not the 35-year-olds, but the 25, 26, 23, 27-year-olds

are speaking and writing pop music in this way. And I think this is an example of it. I totally agree. I do think the Sabrina version of that is a really interesting one because there's not, she's writing dialogue, but she's writing punchlines.

Like I do think that to some extent, I am interested in the conversation about how long can she keep this up, right? Like there's only so many your mom jokes that you can make before people go, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's only so many dick jokes that you can make in song before it's like,

we get it, Sabrina, penis. I don't think she's hit that part yet. I don't think it's wise as a, predictor of where she might go. And I also don't think that it is in the best interest of the pop music consumer to suggest that Sabrina Carpenter is going to stop being funny and stop making jokes because she is good at it in a way that it's a superpower. Like maybe the jokes will transform, but I don't think that she's going to become this

hyper serious person because she is too good at doing what she's doing. there is not on this album a lot of, you know, the jack-off to Leonard Cohen. That's hyper-specific and takes you into an individual story. She does talk about you have a right hand. Okay, I meant the Leonard Cohen part. I didn't mean the jacking off part. I think it's more about... Hard to look past it.

It's more about the universality of the humor. I will borrow a phrase from a dear friend of mine who shall remain nameless who texted me, Sabrina Carpenter is the laurx of frustrated single women. She speaks to us. And I do. And first of all, a thing that I've been thinking a lot about the last few days is that I'm so glad that this album came out when it did. Because, I mean, I just truly cannot wait to hear the life of a showgirl.

But I do think, like, there is some element of, you know, our greatest living. Pop Star is deeply in love and is going to release an album that at least in some way is going to deal with that. And I'm glad that it's not going to entirely be the thing where you don't have a date on Valentine's Day and you're just watching everybody post about it. Like the fact that Sabrina is existing as a as a counterweight to that in some ways, I think is going to be really healthy for our pop ecosystem this fall. So just like shout out to all that. But I do think that the way that she wrote this album seems a lot less, like even relative to short and sweet, it seems less interested in like weaving together stories and narratives and anecdotes. And more so, these are punchlines about universal issues

of anyone who's spent a lot of time on Hinge is totally familiar with. And I think that's really fun. Like, I think it's, I think it's fun that they chose to do that. And if, you look at it as a choice rather than like the absence of something, I just think it opens up a lot of the greatness of what's going on here. Yeah. Well, this is going to be a very big album. This is going to be the number one album. It looks like, you know, in a year in which frontline sort of new releases are not streaming quite as much as they did last year. There's just more noise. She's going to have a really big-ass debut. And I think it's probably going to outperform the first week of short and sweet. The streaming was down 30% on day two from day

one. It was down 19% on day three from day two. That's a fairly regular decline that suggests this thing has some legs. And I think, you know, all things considered when you release an album on the Friday before Labor Day weekend in the, you know, when most of the most of the, you know, when most people are checking out, it's not the easiest time to put music out. Let's put it that way. And also truly in the wake of, you know, this is not anybody's fault. It's inevitable. But like, I think the engagement heard around the world, I think it buried a lot of stuff. And I think that is still a huge topic for people. I think it is still sucking up a lot of attention from media, a lot of what's happening on social.

To come through that and have a big wham bam bam out the gate, I think says something too. It does line up an interesting question around the industry, which is, you know, we've, Taylor's always had these two-year album cycles, other people about the same or longer. This is exactly a year to the date. And.

Is it literally a year to the date? I didn't realize that. Yeah. And so getting a sense for whether or not this is too much or too soon or exactly what culture requires now to stay always on. Just to go back to the Taylor Swift thing, like at some point, presumably you age out of having your finger on the pulse of fan base and understanding the frequency. of touch points. That's been Taylor's superpower. She still is very much on her game to understand when to go away, when to come back. I candidly thought post-era's tour that this album release might be too soon and that maybe she should do, you know, debut Taylor's version or something.

By the way, we still haven't, like, we know their reputation tracks that have been recorded. They are in football shows, Nora. They are not released. Like, what, anyway? That, of me crazy for about 15 minutes the other day. That's funny. But the point is it's a very interesting litmus test of what we want from our artists. Because some of the chatter online, as you said, is like, hey, if we treat this like a sophomore album, which is not fair at all, but is it too soon? Is it right on time?

Does she need to stay always on? Do our pop stars need to stay always on? Or can they go, can they pull in Adele and disappear for four or five years and then just come barreling back like nothing happened. It is a very, you know, Gracie, I think Gracie's going to have some new music sometime soon. You know, will this next generation be a little more always on in the same way that, you know, just trying to keep share of attention in the TikTokization of people's,

people's attention span. Well, let's remember that short and sweet was indeed short and sweet. This is also a 39-minute album. It's not as though she has released huge, huge amounts of music. It's just that there is a follow-up album after one of the biggest albums, not only of last year, but in recent memory, that came pretty quickly. To me, it makes sense. Again, I do think that the album coming after short and sweet was always going to be this thing that she kind of had to just like, get out of her system, get beyond. it don't feel like you have to live in the shadow of it forever. And this to me, which does feel a

little bit like a sister album to Short and Sweet, I think it expands on that in some ways and refines it in some ways. I think the humor is a little bit more like consistent. I think the she's hilarious. Country elements that we pulled out of Short and Sweet are expanded on here. I think the musicality of the production and the ways of bringing live instruments and just a wider array of instruments to this sort of like funny, fuzzy, fizzy, modern like Eurodisco with threads of Paula Abdul thing that they have going on. Like, I just think that they've, I think they've refined that a little bit, but it still feels like it has a relationship to what happened on short and sweet.

To me, it makes sense that those two things, like, it's almost, I don't want to call it a B-side because that feels pejorative, but like it does make sense to me a little bit in that mode. So if she wants to take three years after this one, great, do whatever you want. But it, I don't, as long as she's not tying herself out too much, I don't have a problem with the timing whatsoever. Yeah. I do wonder if this group of pop princes and princesses, if we'd given them a longer period of time,

and if they'd done multiple sessions over the course of, say, six, nine, 12 months, I do wonder what happens because I think it's clearly a dream team, and I think they have a lot of songs here that are really, really strong, and, you know, a few that are really lovely and interesting to listen to,

but that don't get you to the holy fucking shit. Yeah, I guess I just don't think, that any of the songs here struggle for lack of fine tuning. And I don't like, and so therefore to me it doesn't, like this does not sound like a half-baked album. Not in any way. No. It does. No, no, no, it doesn't to me at all. No, I'm sorry. Oh, okay. Sorry. I thought you were asking, you were asking me to confirm that. No, I doesn't sound like that to me at all. You know, if you give yourself three extra months, is it possible that you go into the studio one day all together and you get that lightning strike

and you make espresso part two. Like maybe it's different to me than, man, I just, you know, that song sounded like a great idea, but it didn't quite take off. Like I don't fault up for any of that stuff on this. I don't have that here. Let me say it differently.

This sounds like 13 songs that they wrote very close together in sessions that were, you know, time boxed. and as opposed to they wrote 30 and they whittled down, or they wrote 25 and they whittled down to the 12 that they thought should be on the record. The album sounds sonically consistent, and it is a story.

It's very important to Sabrina that you listen to this from front to back. The sequence matters to her, which is interesting, and we will talk about as we get into the individual songs here in a second. And I think that's why they matter to her, because she really has structured them all in a way. it's not a collection in the way sometimes pop albums become. And the only downside of that is good decisions come from good options.

If you've got a bunch of options, sometimes you make good decisions. I don't like there are any bad decisions on this album, but it is a different thing. It is, let's put these four people in, go, let's see what happens from Paris. Sure, sure. All right, let's talk about some of these songs specifically and let's go to our categories. I think we've talked a fair bit about kind of issues of scope and scale and hit creation. But I do want to just ask explicitly because Manchild is obviously the one that came first, has this crazy runway and has been streaming like crazy as you laid out.

But tears coming along as the second single. How much of a shot do you think that song has to be big? I like the video. I like Coleman Domingo in there. I love the video. I like the multiple death endings. I really hadn't glommed on to the fact that we kill somebody in every video. It's a thing.

It has to, someone has to die every video. Wait, what? Sorry. Why are you being weird right now? We'll always remember you, though. She really will. She will literally end you. It's so funny because there's none of that like Rocky Horror picture show death, like horror

campiness. the live show at all. The live show is like the set of the Jetsons cartoon or something. It's just like a 60s, 70s TV show. There isn't that like dark macabra like stab you in the heart and laugh as you bleed out kind of thing that a lot of her videos are turning into many little horror picks. I know. I kind of, I hope it does show up on stage someday. It's a lot of cleanup with the blood. The line and goodbye. when she says, I wish I had a gun or words. Like,

that's probably peak Sabrina. That's so, it's not my favorite lyric, but it's really, really, really good. I wish I had a gun or words. If something got lost in communication.

That song is an ABBA song, but we'll get there. Oh, totally. It's like nine ABA songs. Yeah, I think Tears is great. It's,

fun. The innuendo is strong. And that is part of this album that I am not grappling with, but that I'm so interested to see how it plays out because I just remember going to the live show and looking in the crowd. And there were just these distinct segments of fans. And everybody has these distinct segments. But there is an adult theme to a lot of the show, to a lot of this music that goes right over the heads of the eight-year-old girls who were in the audience with their mothers. And I did see a little bit of chatter online from people being like, oh, how can I, you know, play this for my kids? And it's like, guess what? You don't have to let them listen to it. Okay. First of all, that's being a good parent. This is a personal bugaboo for me.

Yes, that's exactly right. You don't have to let them listen to it. I do think that we have, we have infantilized so much of our culture that people have forgotten. that like pop music didn't used to be for eight-year-olds. We didn't used to assume that that was like part of the gig. Yeah. And so first of all, your eight-year-old doesn't know what tears run down my thighs means. Like they're not, they're, don't worry about it. It's not a problem.

And second of all, it's actually not that important that your eight-year-old be able to go to the Sabrina Carpenter show. I'm sorry. I know this is like a, it's not an unpopular opinion. It's important to the eight-year-olds. No, it's not. Come on. It is. That's why Mother's crashed ticket master for Miley Cyrus. It's why Miley Cyrus was much more connected to the child star Disney kid universe.

I mean, there are parts of that Taylor show on the chair that are less than appropriate for eight-year-olds. Yes, but Taylor, and it's the beauty of Taylor, but I also think that there are some unfortunate byproducts. Taylor became so multi-generational in a way that is really beautiful and wonderful, but I do think has taught a lot of people the wrong lesson about who these shows are supposed to be for. Because if you are trying to please and be appropriate and correct for an audience of eight-year-olds, you are really, really, really hamstringing your ability to say something interesting within culture.

That's K-pop demon hunters. Sure. Great. Absolutely. As it should be. of the summer. Yeah, that's true. That's really true.

Golden. The other song that's pretty big, if you look at the streaming numbers, is nobody's son? Yeah. Did that shock you? That really, like, I'm not even,

I'm not shading the song. I was a little surprised to hear such a reggae influence on this album. Well, it starts, I mean, is there reggae? It starts,

and I did a double take. It sounds like that Paul McCartney Christmas song, wonderful Christmas, Christmas time? We're here tonight a nasty no simply having

a wonderful Christmas time really quickly and this is a little esoteric in the Travis Kelsey kind of way but it moves into do you know the Ingrid Michelson song Wonderful Unknown? It gives me those vibes

in such a strong way. Yes, yes. But generally, I am surprised because I don't love this song. Do you love this song? No, it's in my bottom half. I will say the one thing that I do really enjoy from this and that I have heard several people comment on

is that I think a lot of people are just enjoying the idea of calling boys corrupt. So I'm going to ask this as delicately as I can. When she says, yes, I'm talking about your baby, how do you interpret that? That she's like... Who's the baby? Because what she says is he sure fucked me up.

And yes, I'm talking about your baby. Yeah, it's like, like moms will raise the most nightmare man you've ever seen and be like, oh, he's such a nice boy. Okay. She's talking to moms. That's what I think. I think she's saying, yes, I'm talking about your baby, your little baby boy who you have some hand in making him like this. Okay. So why is this the song that people are turning to? I'm as I'm honestly pretty confused by it. Again, my best guess is like I just have seen a lot of people get a lot of enjoyment about the corrupt thing.

It almost made me wonder if I'm missing some sort of like TikTok trend or something. But I'm surprised that this has been a big one. There are a lot of songs that I would have chosen before this. Including. Should we go there? No, no. Don't go there yet. Don't go there yet. Because you're going to go to your favorite. But the one thing I'll say about this is that line, that sort of bridge, that boy is corrupt. He sure fucked me up. That's some of the most space in the album. Like, there are so many words that are on top of words through a lot of this stuff that I do wonder if that's like a, it's a little bit of a singable moment.

And it has like the handclaps to it. Yes. So you can sort of clip it and TikTok it. And if it's not trending now, I think you're right that it will. And that's my only explanation. And it makes for a big moment live, if everybody gets to be like,

that boy is corrupt. Woo! Like, that's very fun. Sure. It's not as fun as... Ready? Three, two, one. House tour.

The best song on this album, like, buy a mile. Oh my gosh. I love this song so much. I'm so glad we're in agreement on this. House tour is the new word for Netflix and chill. Do you want the house store? There are, by the way, the number of people who over Labor Day weekend were sending a text or two saying,

do you want the house tour? I'm sure it's not zero. It's a thing. I mean, it does remind me, like she put Juneau 10th. She put House Tour 11th. it definitely has like this is a very data reference but there's this song

let's hear it for the boy from the footloose soundtrack yeah this has those 80s vibes in a big way but this song is the best song oh my gosh

it's so good it's so much fun it's also like to me this is where the innuendo actually really works because it's I don't want to say it's subtle because it's not

Not that. But it's like every once in a while she'll lose me because she'll have a line like, oh gosh, what song is it? It's in we almost broke up last night where she's just like, we had our sex. And I'm like, okay, it's just a little too direct. It's a little too plain. It misses the wink. And this is, I mean, it is an onslaught of innuendo, but everything has a wink.

And I find it incredibly charming, the idea that like she is. describing her body as this sort of cheesy, like, McMansion-esque house. Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, when you really dive in, if you take the whole thing as a metaphor, which she says, I promise none of this is a metaphor. And of course, it's tongue-in-cheek because everything in this entire song is a metaphor for crying out loud. And, yes, then there, I mean, all of it. I can't say it out of it.

I need you to say it out of the wax floors. Yep, there you go. Thanks for saying that. because it's insured. Yeah, it's insured. Oh, it's really funny. Never enter through the back door. The whole thing is great.

Yeah, that did. It's funny that that one made me think about the S&L sketch that we love so much, just in the vein of, you know, Sabrina Carpenter is this like, campy over the top pop star's pop star. and that has such a, that invites such a relationship between the artist and the gay community. And yet there is this little thing

where she can't help but be just like incredibly heterosexual including with that line. Can you explain the chips ahoie metaphor to me? I tried to go down a rabbit hole and then I was like, I don't need to be Googling this. Nora's going to tell me. No, I actually, I wasn't going to ask you the same question, but if someone wants to like tactfully

DM one of us, like, I don't know. I guess this is your permission to do that. Oh, no. I don't know what it means. Okay. I think I have an idea, but I'm not going to say it out loud on this podcast. It's not, it's not for me to say. It's really not.

So I would love for the audience to tell us. Okay. Is it about nipples? I'm not. You know how these things go with me. There's only so much that a grown-ass man talking about female pop music can say. Okay. Well, we'll have to, we'll leave that for the next episode.

I love this song so much. It's really awesome. I also think that it's the half dig of I really love the conversation and that your car self-drives. Right. Thank you. That's my only problem with the song. Okay, why? Because the duchiest thing, this sounds like a total doucheback.

No, I know. I think that's what she, I think she intends it to be that way. So why is he getting the house to her? Because, I mean, Nathan, like, she's not exactly picking winners here. Fair. Even, like, I have a theory about when did you get hot, that in the beginning when she's, like, basically describing how desperate she is, like, I sort of wonder if the actual point of the song is the person didn't actually get hot.

She's just really horny. Well, that's a plant can grow. About time I get back on my horse to the rodeo. Well, that's always a possibility with Sabrina Carpenter, it appears. So long untouched, bone dry, not a plant can grow. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, she was doing it. She has her fastball in this stuff.

It's not poetry, but it is internal. monologue pasted onto finely crafted pop music. Indeed. Indeed. House tour is the shit and it is definitely the best song on the record and you should go back and listen to it a million times over. Is there anything

else that you feel similarly about or is house tour like really? No. House tour is over and above. I think when did you get hot is a fun. It's a fun two minute, 25 second groove. I love the way. I

I think go-go juice. People really like go-go-juice. I also really like go-go-juice. The slowdown when she's drunk, calling, and, like, slurring her words. Again, these are all ways to keep pop music that if you just stuck with the chord progressions, you'd be like, nope, I've heard this before. There's enough pivoting and turning and inversion and tempo change. And, you know, on these outroes, they drop notes.

they drop percussion sometimes. You just get the strings. You get bending synths. Like the whole thing is, it sounds fresh. But the, yeah, the rhyming of the exes names here is, I think, partly why people are attracted to this, right? Yes, this was my conspiracy corner.

Okay, go. Which is, I guess, maybe more of just, it's a good Easter egg. This is an Easter egg done well. because she has the line, could be John or Larry, gosh, who's to say, or the one that rhymes with villain, if I'm feeling that way.

And gosh is Josh? Gosh is Josh. Larry is Barry, John is Sean, villain is Dylan. So all of those words rhyme, and she also mentions rhyming in the lyric with a notable X of Sabrina Carpenter. Yeah.

In an album that for all that it is about, her, you know, the experience of dating has very little that feels super, super autobiographical. It's one that I thought was very savagely done. And I do agree that it's drawing people to that song. But I also think that it's got a great melody. It's fun. I'm a fan of, I'm a fan of my man on willpower. I think that's funny. I also think that it's just like the melody is so classic. It doesn't feel like a hit from now. But it's. It feels like a hit from 40 years ago, but in a way that I think is really juicy and fun.

I also love the, my man won't touch me with the 20 foot pole. Yeah. I do think that's why like, I think the sequence has got to be pretty autobiographical. Right? It's like the cycle of this of a failed relationship. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the breakup. Sure, because you, yeah, because you start and, you know, he's a man child, but she always engages in that. Yeah, no, I can't say I get a whole lot of narrative from this. I get themes.

I get a lot that's relatable and fun, but I don't, I can't say I think this album thrives on storytelling. No, it does not thrive on storytelling. It thrives on resonant experience that people, have gone through in their lives, but it's not really. Like, there's snippets. I'll tell you, little TikTok bits. I'll tell you one more that I do love is never getting laid. You do. Yeah, I think it's really funny. And I think. Agoraphobia? Yeah. I mean, that's my, that's my favorite lyric. I could list about 50. But I just hope you get agoraphobia someday is so funny.

And it's such a good example of she's doing, like, musically, she's doing this triangulation of, like, Abba, Prince, and Patsy Klein. I just hope you get a gorovoy someday. But then she's using lyrically ideas and words and sentences that are so 2025 because we've all learned all the phobias and we love to talk about them. And I just hope you get a gorophobia someday is a line that would not have happened in a pop song like this 10 years ago. And then it's in this musical packaging that like it could be now.

It could be 20 years. Like it just could it feels it the melding of these musical influences with this identity that is very modern. I really enjoy. Yeah. Well, this song definitely has the the outro is consistent with all these other tricks that go across the album, right? The, um, at the end of the rainbow stuff.

I don't think there's like weak songs on this album but I do really want to get to what we would cut before a collaborator because I mean I'm interested to hear your collaborator I guess that one feels fairly down the middle but yeah what what would you cut because to me I have three three candidates and it's sugar talking it's don't worry I'll make you worry and it's goodbye.

And I wouldn't really cut goodbye because I like goodbye. Yeah, I would not cut goodbye. I would also not cut, forgive my French, but fuck you, Tata. Orovo,

forgive my French, but fuck you, ta ta ta, goodbye. Yeah, okay, that's the reason to keep, it starts a lot like loveful

by the cardigans, and then it just full on goes into dancing queen. I mean, it's in the same key. as Abba's dancing queen. Well, and I had the piano. Does it bother you?

No, not at all. But you know that like young millennials and Gen Z fucking love Abba. Like Abba has had this whole crazy. I know, but Abba has had a whole crazy resurgence. Yeah, they're holograms in sweet. I get it, but like. I've seen that show. I think we talked about it.

It's kind of weird. Okay. But it's also weird at the, end here for me to be so heavily, Mama Mia. I think it, I find it really fitting. It's a fun fuck off. It is. Yeah. And I see her as the, you know, girl at the wedding reception on the dance floor, like jamming out to gimme, gimme, give me, give me a man after midnight and, and doing all

of that. So to me, like, it actually, actually is a very smart reference in some ways. I'm into it. How about sugar talking? You know, it's not my favorite, but it's not my cut. I guess if you made me, if you made me cut three, sugar talking probably goes. I find the song that comes after it, which is we almost broke up again last night, less interesting. Really? They gave you the key change.

The key change didn't keep it interesting for you. I know. I love a key change. I love a key change. I just like, it's not very funny. Like, it doesn't, it's not working in the ways

that I think the stuff that works and this album works. And we'll be here tomorrow. I do think she sings very well on it. And I think that, I think the instrumentation is nice. But there's nothing. Like, I think this is the weakest song lyrically.

I like that she leads with bullshit repeats itself. Is that how the saying goes? bullshit repeats itself Is that how the saying goes? And two songs earlier On My Man on Willpower She was talking about Can I return it?

Get back the version I like This one's bullshit baby So I'd like that little Throwback look That's a nice echo I just like It's you know We almost broke up

We almost broke up again We had sex we made amends. Like it's, it's not terrible. You don't like that we had sex part. There's something about that that bothers you. That's the second time you've referenced it.

It is a little bit too on the nose for me, I guess. But it's also like that's the song where I think if that's the song that I think would have benefited the most from a Leonard Cohen or whatever. Like for something that felt real, like for something that took you to a place, a specific place. and I don't really ever get it.

I do think the bullshit thing is the best line. Gave me his whole heart, then I gave him head, and then we almost broke up. Yeah, this is again, that's the other one where I'm like, okay, I actually, I would prefer my innuendo with just like a touch of a wink. I'm okay with the song.

It does feel like they're trying really hard. When they hit the key change, I was like, oh, even they were sitting around going, it's a little bit boring by the end. Let's spice it up with the key change. Yeah. No, I agree with that too. Yeah, and then don't worry, I'll make you worry,

is the other one that... Yeah, it just feels slow. Yeah. And it's pinned between Go Go Juice and House tour, so it's going to just stand out in that way. Yeah. I commend the impulse to... Although, I don't know.

Do I? It would have been pretty funny if she took absolutely no account of... for anything on this alpha and was just like, no, men are CADs and I stand by this wholeheartedly. Right. On some level, I commend the impulse to change the lens and look inward for just a moment,

even if it's not my favorite song. Yeah, she said this one was the last one that she wrote. Mm-hmm. And it does have the, again, the mother is referenced here. It does have sort of the least, it has the least sense of humor of everything. Yeah. I mean, that is the other conspiracy corner, I guess, is to try to figure out who has the overbearing mother who is definitely a subcharacter. There's a whole separate conversation around how do we get Sabrina Carpenter making better decisions with the dudes that she's hanging out with?

Selfishly, I don't know if, I don't know if that's in my best interest music. It may not be in our best interest. I have no doubt that Sabrina will find. love and happiness and everything that her heart desires. Well, I don't either. But right now, it seems like she's finding a lot of people who are helping her create art. And along those lines, her most important collaborators,

I just think the consistency for me of Jack, Amy, and John Ryan, as the cream in pop music, again, all in a state of flow, they let her do her thing. She talked about how she and Amy would go for walks and they would sing melodies to each other and sing lyrics to each other and sort of do the songwriting part of the work while John Ryan and Jack Antonoff

are back at the studio creating these universes around these ideas. It's kind of hard to miss with that crew. I completely agree. And I actually think that to me, this is me giving the same answer that you just gave because I think this comes from the minds

of that group. But I think also the choice to involve so many musicians, I think was really, really smart and really wonderful. Like the songs where they bring in pretty heavy strings, it just feels so lush. It feels, you know, it feels expensive, right? Like it feels like they hired a bunch of people. They took a bunch of time.

To me, that's one of those little details. that makes this a refining of what short and sweet did, which is that this album is playing in the same poppy sandbox. But I think by choosing, you know, to bring in the rest of bleachers, right? Like for Jack to say, I want these guys to come in and help and play and create this like big, rich, deep sonic universe.

Really, really works for me. It is. I mean, there are a lot of people who, have sound credits on the album. But I mean, Jack Antonoff is playing percussion, programming, synthesizer, electric guitar, bass, drums,

acoustic guitar, background vocals, banjo, sitar, melitron, Glock and Spiel. Well, sure. Jack's doing a lot of it, but they have the lap steel guy. Like, they have all the string instruments and that all,

to me, added a new dimension. Yeah. There's a lot of Jack on this record. There's a lot of John Ryan. And that's fine. Which I think is good. I'm counting that. What I'm saying is just the decision by Sabrina, Jack, Amy, John, like everybody together to just make the instrumentation of this record be lush like that. I'm into. Okay. I want to know who's playing the keys on when did you get hot. And I can't tell from the credits whether it's Jack or John Ryan playing that cool lick. But it's fine. If anybody knows, let us know.

I think just so you know that the, I think the Chips Ahoy reference is just to like your cookie, like cookie. So I think it's, I think it's in reference to female genitalia. But I don't know that. It's just what the internet told me. That's okay, Nathan. You can tell everyone that. I don't know that.

Wait, where it is, what is the song where she says vagina? Oh. I think it's on willpower. Yeah, I can't exactly remember. I do think there's one, there's one lyric where she just really goes for it. And that's neither here nor there. It was just on my mind. But thanks for the update.

Peek Sabrina for me is completely intertwined with best lyric. I've shared with you that my actual choice is I just hope you get agoraphobia someday. But there are like 19 other contenders. I don't want to jump on yours. So will you give me yours first? My best lyric, to me it was the standard. of I think this schedule could be very nice. Call up the Boys and Cracker Miller Light.

Watch the fight. Us girls are fun, but stressful, am I right? And you've got a right hand anyway. It's really good. It's really good. It's like, to me, that is like, Sabrina, she gets into these, she seems to get into these honeymoon phases

that are volcanically great. and they also seem to end fairly quickly. It seems to just be out of that phase. It's like what I'm sure many, many spouses in America are about to go through this very week, Nora, probably yours, first and foremost, actually, because football season is starting. And it's like, oh, wait a minute.

I'm losing you for a whole, I am completely deprioritized for the next. next 24 hours and it's Sunday and we're going to do this again on Thursday and now we do it on fucking Friday and oh college football's over and now we occasionally do a playoff game on Saturday. What? I think that's the that's the progression that this relationship seems to be going through and right here you're in a moment where it's like wait, I'm not the center of attention anymore. What happened? Sad. RIP. Can I give you some other lyrics? Yeah. Okay. My slow Bloody pajamas.

Yeah. Terrific. Terrific. Now I'm at the prospect convention on when did you get hot. Really funny. Really, really, really funny. Just, like, really made me giggle. What is the prospect convention that Sabrina Carpenter goes to?

Is it like the Met Gala? Oh, interesting. I don't think so. I bet it's more like, did she go to Charlie XX's birthday party? I don't think so. I don't remember her being there. But I bet it's stuff like that.

I bet it's like a little bit smaller scale, but there's still a bunch of actors and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And everybody's on the prowl. I don't think people are quite on the prowl as much at the MetGala because they're all so worried about like how they look and what's going on and what does Emma think. But I've never been. So I don't really know.

Anna's now I know. History. Who's asked are they going to kiss from here? Well, Chloe's. Yeah, that's what it sounds like.

I denied you the opportunity to have a peek, Sabrina, because mine was tied up in the lyrics. Do you have something else? No, to me, it's the breaking of the fourth wall. Like, I love the way she breaks the fourth wall. She's the best at it. Big riff coming.

I need a minute in, when did you get hot? And then bam, she nails that riff too. I just love the way dance break in tears, right? There's still, she did that a lot in short and sweet, but here it's more fun. And again, it's why I, when I said it expands the character, I think that's part of what it is.

Like she is playing a character. Don't forget, she started as an actress. And there is this character here that every now and then she looks at you and winks. at the end of the tears video, got to give the people what they want, you know, that kind of thing where she just knows always that you're paying attention

and she's going to let you in on the joke every now and then she wants you to know that she knows you're in on the joke. What do you think that? So let's talk next album before we settle up and grade this thing because, and I just think that's a good jumping off point because I think to me,

even more so actually than musically questioning where she goes from here. To me, the development of the persona and how much she breaks the fourth wall versus how much she continues laying on the stick is the most interesting question about her overall trajectory to me. Yeah.

I think that this album actually gives her permission now to be a lot more autobiographical. and yeah honest is not right because she's brutally honest here I mean these are real I think I really do think these are real experiences

there are a lot of burial over this record no totally I'm not saying that I don't think that they're real I just don't think that they're like I don't think that she's giving you a lot of like vignettes

I think she's giving you a lot of like that guy was kind of a loser yeah I just think the natural progression here of this character like again I don't think you can just run it back for season three the same way. I think she can, she's going to have more life experiences. She's going to, you know, be in a series of, or whatever.

Whatever her relationship and life moves, we just don't know that much about Sabrina Carpenter from her music outside of like her interaction with men. And what we do know is that she has a fascinatingly fucking hilarious in her monologue that I want to hear about her relationship with her parents and her interaction with the outside world and what she thinks of the crazy world that we live in. There is a lot more material to put through the Sabrina machine

where I think the essence of what she is, which is deeply relatable, she says things that resonate with a thought that so many people have had before and she speaks in terms of... And she's not scared. Yeah, in dialogue and language. about being all things to all people.

Yeah. So I think that is where the next album goes. There has been that consistent thread of a little bit of country woven into the pop that I think has been intentional. You got banjos across both these albums, but that doesn't mean she's going country. I don't think she should. I just think she's got a lot more material that she can explore from here.

and some of that might mean breaking the character, which that's the question. Can she run it back for season three? Yeah, and I do. Like, here's where I do think, I would imagine she goes to a different type of album creation process. Because while I think it totally made sense to do this one in quick succession, I don't think you want to rip off five of those in a row like that, right?

one because it's just exhausting. But two, because I think if she put herself in a situation like you were describing, and whether that's by working with different groups of collaborators and seeing what comes out of that or just taking more time or just changing up something about the circumstances, like that's what I would be interested to hear what would come out of shaking things up a little bit that way. But I imagine that it'll take, like I don't think that we're going to get the next Sabrina Carpenter album a year to the date.

from now. No, but how this does and how it is ultimately received once we get past the bot traffic online and all the just stuff that seems to happen around album releases these days,

like how it actually sinks its teeth into the fan base will tell us about the frequency of at least the permission that she has to release music this frequently.

For sure. I am pretty optimistic about how that's going to go. And Nathan, I gave this album a B plus. Tell me about that. Did you consider anything else? I considered an A minus.

It's not an A. It's not an A. Nope. And by the way, I'm trying to be a little tougher in migrating. The fact that we started off on a Taylor Swift plane wasn't necessarily helpful for the every single album curve. So let me just be forthright about that.

I considered an A minus, certainly. I really enjoy this album. I think the ways in which it's great, it's really great. I love the sense of humor. I love its consistency. I love that it is just this, like, to use a phrase that I think Sabrina Carpenter would make a very funny joke about, a neat little package. And I just think that her point of view is really refreshing and really fun. And the instrumentation is is really good.

I think where it's lacking is, you know, I don't want to really indict it for not having an espresso, but certainly if you could have an espresso or a please, please, please, please on your album, I think you want to. And the moments in which it misses, I think it could have benefited from, I think she's capable of a little bit more dimensionality in the storytelling, where the lyrics that I love, I tend to all love for the same reasons, which is just they're

very funny and fun and creative. But I think she's capable of a little bit more than she flexes here in terms of telling stories. Hmm. See, I think she's a pop princess. I don't know that she's, I don't know that she is at the core a storyteller. I'm not saying that she's at the core a storyteller. I think she's escaped from that for me in pop. I don't have to have. my serious hat on. It's not drivel that Doa is, where it's just like, okay, I'm on vacation and I'm dancing. First of all, excuse you. Do I don't feel like I have to really pay attention. I can just move. Like, she's not requiring me to listen to her stuff. Sabrina requires that I listen

because so much of the fun of the music is the humor and the innuendo. I don't think she's a storyteller. And maybe down the road she will. be, I think she's more of a perspective giver and an internal monologue publisher. And those, I love to hear, they're just lightweight. They're not heavy. There isn't any heaviness to what she is. Look, I gave it a B plus two. I struggle with that a little bit because I really do think that in terms of production and sheen and pop song structure, it's about as good as it could be. I know. I think Manchild is going to go down

as one of the more underappreciated really big songs. If I am them, I try to see what I can do online with House Party because I just think it is the catchiest song on the record. I understand why they went with tears and I support it as the second single and I think the video is cool. But like, let's,

Juno had a huge moment in the tour. I bet you House Party is what's next. And I, so I would lean into that. But yeah, if I have one criticism of this album, it is that there weren't the holy shit musical moments that I had on short and sweet. But start to finish,

it is a consistent, pristinely structured and created pop album that I'm definitely going back to house party a bunch. It's fab. I'm really excited about it. I'm going to listen to it a ton. I can't wait. Whatever opportunity there is to see her do this live,

I'd be really excited about. Yeah, well, there's going to be opportunities this fall because she's playing a select group of arena shows. And it appears that she's going to be doing some festivals next year based on some online leaking of things. And, you know, don't forget that one month from tomorrow, she's going to be featured on the Taylor Swift album. So I'm really interested to see,

how that actually affects her streaming and between now and then, you know, whether fans come back to this record after they hear the life of a showgirl. We will find out. This has been every single album. As always, I'm Nora Princeati. He's Nathan Hubbard.

Thank you to Olivia Creary for producing this episode. And to you for listening. We'll talk to you next week.