Every Single Album - ‘Mayhem’ | Every Single Album: Lady Gaga

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

Nora and Nathan's paws are up as they get ready to break down Lady Gaga's newest album, ‘Mayhem.’ They talk about the many times that Gaga self-references throughout this record (1:00), the song "How Bad Do U Want Me" (which sounds like it could have come straight from Taylor Swift's ‘1989’) (28:18), and what could come next for Gaga now that she's returned to her pop roots (54:00). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you hear the word Seattle Supersonics, what comes to mind? Maybe it's Sean Kemp, The Rain Man, or Gary Payton, the glove, or maybe an image of a tall and skinny 19-year-old rookie, Kevin Duran. For fans in Seattle, it's something else. It's tragedy. It's theft. An iconic team with an incredible fan base that packed its bags and shipped off for Oklahoma City. From Spotify and The Ringer, I'm Jordan Ritter-Con.

And in my podcast, Sonic Boom, I talk to players, politicians, owners, and fans about how Seattle lost the Sonics. You can listen to it on the Book of Basketball feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Hello and welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Prince-Iatti this week. We are covering Lady Gaga's new album Mayhem, which came out last Friday. And as always, I am joined by my friend Nathan Hubbard. Nathan, are your paws up? Are you ready to go? It's chaos. It's complete mayhem.

Nora, I enjoyed this more than I thought I was going to. How much? Okay, let's start there. Let's lay it all out. How much did you think you were going to enjoy this record? Not very much. Like, you thought that you were going to have an actual negative experience with this album. No. I didn't, look, I am a huge fan of the early Gaga work. Okay? Fame Monster, Born This Way, Art Pop. I got a little lost around Joanne. I just, the Tony Bennett stuff felt like charity work more so, even though like, oh my God, they were number one albums.

Tough. That's how, that's why, like, let's start from this point. The reason I didn't think I was going to have a great experience with this is because you and I have laughed and joked so much about Die with a Smile. And it's on this fucking record. And it made no sense to me why it would be on this album. And I really thought that it was more of a Bruno Mars-driven track. And there it was.

And so I went into this knowing that at the end of this experience, I was going to get hit with a reminder that I have shitty musical taste, apparently. So that was sort of how I approached it. But that to me felt more like, I don't know, I just, there were parts of the Gaga experience that weren't for me, okay? I loved the stuff on Star is Born. I thought her participation in that whole movie was awesome. Yeah. I also thought her tongue and cheek, you know, busting on her acting chops on Saturday Night Live was maybe partially deserved too, right?

So I just, it's been a little while since there's been a Gaga thing that has made me go Gaga. And so I came into this a little bit concerned. And I left elated. How about you? Yeah. I mean, I started from a higher place than you did, right? I figured I would like this. I didn't know how much.

I didn't know how sort of creative of an accomplishment I would think this album was. You know, there's a lot of discourse around the first couple of singles about the reheating of the nachos of it all, which is something that we can talk about. Yeah, we're going to have to talk about that because that was part of why I was nervous coming in too because abracadabra grew on me. Disease just didn't, it felt fine, but it felt like one of the first duo singles last year

where I was like, oh no, if this is the best pitch, I'm not sure I'm ready for this album. And I would say that I think those, and I like both songs, I definitely like Abercadabra more, but I like both of them. And I came out of this, you know, let's leave die with a smile. The biggest song in the world out of this conversation for a moment.

The song that is the second highest streaming Gaga song of all time besides shallow. And it's going to catch shallow in like two months. It's so wild. I mean, this song needs to be studied at an institute somewhere because nothing. has made me feel, I think I've said this before, like nothing has made me feel further away from culture than the absolute dominance of this song that I like. Like, I don't think it's bad. It's just, I-V-O-The-Mouse-ass song. It's so wacky. Somewhere out there for 2024. But I didn't expect what I came away feeling, which was that actually,

The three songs, those three songs that we'd heard before. Are the worst on the album? I don't know that they're the worst, but they're among the weaker half, certainly, to my ear. For sure. For sure. This record, yeah, I mean, so you saw the SNL performance. Totally. I thought she was really strong.

The monologue made me a little nervous. I'm excited to be here. I know you might be thinking I'm here to promote my album. mayhem, but I'm actually here to remind you that I'm an amazing actor. Not because it wasn't good, I just... She had funny body language. I thought the monologue was actually great, but she had funny body language that I couldn't quite figure out.

She seemed a little uncomfortable, and maybe some of it was the acting piece around, once you got the bit, then I think she was putting yourself into it. But I was a little concerned, but the performances were super... solid and there have been... Do you think it's possible that she's just a herky-jurkey person?

Because I agree with you that the way that she sort of sways and some of the hand gestures, I started going, is she nervous to be up there? Is something going on that I don't understand? But the fact that she was in basically every sketch, she's singing, she seems like she's having a great time. The episode I thought as a whole was really funny and super solid. Yeah. And then you see her choreography and there's just, as there has always been, there are a lot of limbs flying around. It is. She is giraffey on stage, man.

It is arms and legs. Totally. And she's always doing the robot kind of. I wonder if that's just how she moves her body. I think you're right. Because I thought everything else, she seemed so self-possessed and so assured that I'm chalking it up to just like Lady Gaga physical. Well, and she's had a lot of physical ailments. through the course of her life, hasn't she, that she's struggled with? And there is a disconnect

between her soul and her body in a lot of ways. And that is a theme that gets woven through this album. She is, she inhabits multiple bodies. There's Stephanie and there's Gaga, and there's a tension between those two things. And it plays itself out through the course of some of the lyrical components of this. She talks about it in her own personal love life. in the way she interacts with fans, in the way that she has been a real chameleon through all of these musical journeys that I spoke about at the beginning of the pod

that in some cases didn't work out for me, but coming into this album that I, what I realized in hindsight, after listening to it, is she has earned permission more than almost any other artist to do this. Like, she has,

you know, I'm not sure that there's an all-timer here other than you know what song that apparently from a numerical standpoint is going to go down as a fucking all-timer. But, like, this is generally a really fun album, and mayhem is the right title. And the chaotic nature of the whipsawing between genres is awesome. It sounds like Lady Gaga working with Andrew Watt. but like these songs open up in a super cool way and and again she has earned the permission to bounce and because she's at least proven to us that she's an artist even if there are times

where you like yo this is weird as fuck and it's not for me uh and it's okay to admit that because most of what she does lands on a target and she is one of our most versatile pop stars even if the last time we saw a pop star up there, that was our best dancing pop star of the moment in Tate McCray. And the difference was vast and wide. But man, it wasn't any less. Lady Gaga's biological grandmother. Yeah, it wasn't any less of an impactful performance.

I mean, the thing I'll say, Nor, this woman has no chill in her music. She just, every song is, she's like grabbing you by the shirt collar and pulling you towards her. and just going at you. There is no moment to breathe on this entire track, is there? You know what I noticed that I think speaks to that?

And I think it was after, I think it was at the very end of Killa when she did it on S&L. The song ends. It's like going into the outro. And she is holding her pose. Oh. And she's just like staring right at the camera. And she's pointing. And she's, like, so locked in.

And I think what a lot of people do on that stage, and this isn't bad, but what a lot of artists will do is break the fourth wall at the end and break the position and sort of wink and wave and thank you, thank you to the crowd. And she doesn't do that because she is this theater kid who's so locked into her performance. Yes.

All the time. She's more theater than Taylor. Yeah. Well, and she's like theater, theater, right? She's like a weird, you know, shock art fan, NYU, Lower East Side Art Kid. Yes, in ways that Taylor wasn't, yes. Right. Those are overlapping energies, but not the same.

No, very different. Yeah. I hope you'll hang on to this idea that you just brought up about the theme of the two sides of her sort of intention. and interacting with each other because that's a part of this album that is definitely present but I thought hit me kind of the weakest

as an element of it of you know if you talk about if you talk about the music like the production choices the performance by her and then sort of the idea of it I think what's really strong about mayhem is that it comes across to me

as a music first album whereas the theme and the idea behind it is a little more wishy-washy to me or at least just a little bit less accomplished. Is it a night out from start to finish really? Or did we sort of back into that thematically?

I agree with you. And I mean, we'll get to the Michael stuff, but there's moments where I feel like my... Michael. Oh, man. I love him, okay? I love him. But there are moments...

Do you know him? No. Okay. There are moments... Nathan might know this guy. Yeah, no. There are moments where you can tell Michael made a lyrical contribution to the verse. And she loves him very much, clearly, because she included it.

And she may indeed be love blind on a love drug. And it's fine. It's fine. But look, all of this... Here's the thing for me. This whole thing works for Gaga because she's earned the permission to just go anywhere, anywhere. And I think we're also happy to hear her back in pop-centered stuff that it works. I don't feel the need to dissect all of this with a fine-tooth comb for some reason

because it just feels, there's just a gaga sound to this that feels comfortable and familiar, the synths and the driving beats and her voice going after it with the growl and on every song. It just is such a welcome reminder. but it doesn't feel, to me, like she's reheating her own nachos on every song. There are callbacks. There are absolutely, I mean, there are threads of lots of things we've heard her do before

and some other artists do before in all of this. But that feels like the point as she returned to a format that I think she's telling us through the course of this promo tour that this was actually a scary thing for her to journey back to. because she's experimented in so many other ways and had so much success with this kind of pop as a format that trying to go back and do it again after continually moving forward as an artist

was probably scary for her. And I really, I think it worked. And it's so much in the delivery, at least to me. And one thing that I think you hear is that after some of the most derivative musical moments, often that's when her voice, will become the most centered in the mix. And when you get those growls

or you get those spoken word things, and I think it's super effective. One, because she's a really distinctive voice. So it's almost like the counter argument to anything that you could say, oh, well, that's somebody else's song, or I've heard this before, this is the re-heated nachos.

And then, bam, it sounds like Lady Gaga, it feels like Lady Gaga, it is Lady Gaga. And then also, you can just hear that she- She's in it. They're her nachos. She likes these. They're her nachos. She's into the nachos.

And when she believes it, I just think she's singing on this album, like she really believes in it. And that's a subjective thing. But I just feel like you really hear that. And that goes a hell of a long way. Well, and as we get into the category side of things, my happiest moment of the weekend, and I had a number of them, my happiest moment of the weekend was, that the second song was Killa.

And because to me, she, she has spoken about how this one was a real stretch and a push for her and a challenge and she had to stretch herself. And yeah,

there's Bowie vibes in it because it's basically a Bowie sample. But this is my favorite song on the album. It fucking rocks. And the whole album turns here for me. In sequence, disease is okay.

Like I still feel a little meh, but I like it more in the context of the entire album, if that makes sense. Abra-cadabra, yes, it's fun. I don't think it's a massive hit, but I think it's fun, and I get it plays well in the club, and, you know, the kids are having fun with it. Great. I'm happy it exists.

Garden of Eden, little Kesha here, you know, then it gets Gaga again, a little bit of a throwback to bad romance in the backup vocal run. almost sound sampled there. And also the staccato individual to take you to the Garden of Eden.

Totally. Totally. And but you've got, that's where the watt guitar riffs are sort of anchoring this thing down. Right? And then you get into perfect celebrity. We'll talk about that. Vanish into you. There is definitely some bad romance here too. But then Killa

is where the thing turns for me. And it's just like kill a zombie boy love drug except for some of the words on the on the lyrics that clearly came from michael in the verses river in my eyes i've got a poem in my throat i hear the music and it takes me by surprise and then bam how bad do you want me which is we're going to talk about at nauseam we won't discuss and i even i'm even good like don't call tonight great stuff shadow of but it starts for me with Kila where I was like, holy shit,

I am into this. Yeah, it's just a really, really cool song and I loved that she did it on SNL. I loved that, you know, you hear so much Bowie in it, but I loved that she also was wearing sort of like the Prince Purple outfit for it.

It's just a really cool song. And it is different than a lot of the rest of this stuff. Like, I think it sounds a little bit more of a stretch from that early, 2009, Gaga that's being self-referenced on so much of this, which I guess is why she probably described it as being a little bit more of a stretch. Yeah. Do you read Killa as, like, silly, goofy, campy a little bit? Or do you think she's... For sure. Because the sort of...

Talking some shit with your hand on my ass. I'm a murderer in disguise. Newsflash, that's my favorite lyric on this record, because it's so ridiculous. she's so good at passing some of this stuff off where it takes you like three or four listens to be like that is so absurd. That is an absurd thing to put on a song. Like the whole like, you know, there's a lot of sex as death and death is sex on a lot of these songs.

Yeah. I just imagine that they were in a writing session for Killa just like cracking up because a lot of this is very silly, but to pull it off with the swagger that she does is really, really cool. Well, and note, they made this album at Shangri-La, which is Rick Rubin's like super Zen, chill-out Malibu Studio. This is what she's, she's ripping off back-to-back, killer, zombie boy, love drug. How Bad Do You Want Me?

Just look at the titles for crying out loud. Yeah. What's your favorite song on this album? So I have one, but I also have three. Okay. And if I do it as three, Killas up there, the other one that I would include is, I think, perfect celebrity fucking rules. Wow.

Oh, I think it's so good. It's like Lady Gaga doing a pink song. It's an angry song, according to her. Yeah. It's funny because I don't, like, I get what it's about, right? And in general, I will say that I am a little, a little tired of songs about the difficulties of being a celebrity. I don't know.

There's some other stuff. going on in the world. But it doesn't, like, I just receive it as a song that channels some personal frustrations a lot more than I hear it about the specific grievances that she outlines in it. The other thing that I think is really cool about it is that, and I'm going to spoil, I guess, a little bit of my conspiracy corner here, which is that I take this album to be a little bit of a single album eras tour experiment. And I really don't mean to make everything about Taylor Slift, although I'm going to do that several times in this episode. I have a feeling. But, you know, she goes back to the early pop stuff. And obviously, that was a big part of this process.

But I think you hear her getting a lot out of kind of just. journeying through different songs and different parts of her career. And now not, you know, this is a pop album and not everything in her career has been that. So you're obviously skipping, except when you get to the very end, the Tony Bennett stuff, you know, shallow. And there are some asterisks to that. But there's so much in this song that references, you know, plastic doll. She brings up Diamond Blood, which is a lyric.

The fame, there is a nod to the song Princess Die, which is an unreleased song that in an earlier era, as only Lady Gaga would do, she wrote that sort of puts her as a character in the, storyline of Princess Diana that I think someone told her, hey, don't release this, this isn't going to go well. But she did perform it live during the Born This Way Ball.

Obey up Princess Diana with you. And so the fact that she's weaving in all of these different references to her past music just made me think a little bit about what the idea

because again, the mayhem thing I didn't quite find sticky throughout the entire album. And this made me wonder if a lot of what's going on on this record as a whole is this like, you know, journey back in time through Lady Gaga's different eras. And what that might mean for where she's going, I thought was really interesting. But I also just think the song goes. Yeah. The back half of almost every one of these songs just gets bigger and better. And the outro and perfect celebrity is a good example with the synth bass and the drums.

It just sort of widens. Garden of Eden does that. It sort of widens, love drug. You know, it just starts to kick ass. They, again, it's going to be Andrew Watt is the best, most important collaborator for me on this because I think... Well, we'll talk about it.

That's fine. For me. It is underneath this music, it feels like it starts from a guitar. And I think he had a lot to do with it. He's a writer on every single one of these songs. And this is a guy who's worked with everybody from Pearl Jam on. Like he has that real rock in him. And so as much as you said, this is a pop album,

there's moments of rock on this that facilitates a move to some of the disco stuff we here in zombie boy, for example, right? Yeah. So I think the foundational layer of guitar through all of these songs gives her some almost like a landing pad to go to these different places. And in some cases, like perfect celebrity, it's like industrial pop. But these songs really broad. They like flower like, I don't know, like afternoon sun comes along and whom, they're bigger.

If you hang in there, you're always rewarded. at the end of every single one of these. She did at one point, she's shared in some of the promo for this, and particularly after writing Perfect Celebrity, conceive of this album for a moment as a full-on grunge record. And there were some times before any of the singles are out, although I do wonder if that conception explains a little bit about why disease in abracadabra,

which are a little bit grungy, or they're not necessarily the most rocking songs on this, but they do have that sort of industrial, grungy, electrogrunge thing that she likes to deal with. She thought that that would be the direction

of this whole thing. Good old Michael comes in and says, you know, you've done so much, you don't need to just focus on one sound. Oh, boy. She's shared that that unlocked something for her because in the past, and I do think this rings true if you think about, you know, Joanne is an album that clearly had a concept at the center of it

that took her in a place that maybe hampered some of the music. And this ends up being, you know, why don't we just choose the music, perhaps at the expense of the concept. Okay, yeah. that's where I'm comfortable with it is there's a controlled chaos that for other artists we'd be like what the fuck is this like it's kind of all over the place but for Gaga that's what she is she's doing the robot and flailing about in a way that somehow synthesizes who she is as an artist can I give you my real best song yeah I mean go I have to talk to you about how bad do you want me.

Okay, that's fine. I mean, I was going to wait for the Easter egg, but let's go. I can't wait. I can't. I've listened to this song. Okay, but tell me the truth. Have you heard only you by Yaz? Yeah.

Like, is that a song that you were familiar with before this? Yeah, but I didn't, I didn't, um, not like intimately. Okay, because we've talked about that album, Yaz's album. album upstairs at Erick's. And now they get referred to as Yazoo because of some stupid trademark. This band is called Yaz. They were Yaz, they are Yaz now.

And they have an album called Upstairs at Eric that is Erics that is fucking awesome. And there is a song called Only You that is like a huge chunk of the bass construction of this song, not the instrument bass, but like the BASE construction of this song. but you love this song

because there are absolutely Taylor Swift notes throughout the whole thing there are Taylor Swift background vocals on this song my conspiracy theory is it might actually be Taylor singing in the background Yeah I know there's been reporting

to the contrary I'm not over it yet I'm not I'm still a little red pilled on this Yeah I mean too There is a blank space vocal run that is straight from the blank space chorus it is all over this. The little spoken word, like, so hot, hot that you can't speak. Like, that is Taylor Slip.

So hot, hot that you can't speak. Unequivocally. And the reason that it is important is that Jack Antonoff is a huge fan of Yaz. And there is a lot of Yaz in Midnights. There is a lot of Yaz in tortured poets. There is a tiny bit of Yaz in some of their other work together. don't forget that applause is the song was the song that started the oh fuck here we go before the air is toured that's when and ryan scott came walking out that's when the crowd started to

boil into a froth and get ready with the lights up so there is a lot of overlap between these three artists i'm only stretching a little bit here nora but this song kicks ass tell me what you fell in love with out of the gate. So first of all, I just, look, not every single day. I reserve the right to go back and forth, but there are a lot of days when 1989 by Taylor Swift is my favorite album in the world. Absolutely. And so if you just take that from a starting point, it is mine.

I'm going to like this song, you know? The chorus is a rush of endorphins. that I don't think another song has given me certainly this year, and it might have been a little longer than that. I mean, the first few times I heard it, I certainly was sort of overcome by the Taylor Swift of it all, right? The, you know, good girls, bad boys, the crash, the rush, I make your heart weak.

And your head starts going. Well, so here's what I wonder if, Okay, I have sort of layers to my conspiratorial thinking on this. And I'll give you the most reasonable one first. I absolutely believe that at a minimum, Lady Gaga was really flattered and engaged with the idea that applause had that moment on the era's tour. She shared that story. I forget in what context. So I'm sorry that I'm not giving proper credit, but about Taylor. telling her, I think, backstage at an awards show how much she liked parts of art pop and Gaga saying,

initially thinking, oh, she's full shit. Like, nobody really listened to that. And I don't think she actually cares about it. And then somebody independently sharing with her at a party or something. Like, no, no, she's super into it. And Gaga being very flattered by that and appreciating that.

And I think at a minimum, she just really was tickled that Taylor used her. her work in an important moment in what became, you know, biggest tour of all time. Did Stephanie go to that show? I don't know. I couldn't find any specific evidence that she did. I only gave it a cursory Google, so if somebody knows, let us know.

I couldn't find anything that said that she was there. But there's no way that she wasn't aware of the Erez tour phenomenon, right? and she's not, there's no way that she doesn't know that her song has such a big moment. And if I were a really talented pop artist, if I were Lady Gaga, that would certainly get my mind going, right? Like, huh, like, what is it about this that moves so many people? Like, could I ever do something like that? Would I ever want to? What does that mean?

And that's not like an I want to go be Taylor Swift thing. No. It's just, it's a creative inspiration. And so I think that at the absolute very least, she took her feelings of being flattered by that choice by Taylor and said to herself, what is a Taylor Swift song as written by Lady Gaga? Like, what is my version of this? Because I just, I don't think that this song can be read as anything other than,

I don't want to use the word parody, but Gaga in the style of Taylor Swift. Like, it's just, it is that. Yeah. And I think I am almost all the way there if it weren't for the Yaz part of this. But the jazz of it all would be totally in place on an album like 1989

or a lot of the Taylor and Jack stuff that's come since. Yes, you're right. about that. You're right about that. I... I would even go so far as to say that if I were Lady Gaga thinking, okay, what's the right place to start if I were to try to write a song in the style of Taylor? I might think to myself, what's a really sick riff from an 80s song? Well, this is it. That I can choose and center my go at this around. Like, I just can totally see it happening exactly that way. Now, the crazier parts of my brain can also say that, you know, maybe that is secretly Taylor in the background and there's going to be a moment when it's going to be revealed.

That she stopped in this dude. I know. There's no way because I think when this was recorded, she was just out on the road. But there is a way, always. This Yaz Taylor Baby is a beautiful thing. Do you think, I don't know if she can avoid it becoming a single. Like, I don't know. There's a lot of chatter about it. Killa clearly comes next. But they saved a lot of stuff, man. They saved a lot of stuff.

And I do think, like, I love Killa. And I think, Killa, you're right, is going to be the next single and is perfect for that. Nothing screams radio on this the way that how bad do you want me does. It's more contemporary. it, I mean, it sounds like the biggest artist in the world. I just, I think that probably it's a cute little wink, nod, tongue, and cheek. I just don't know as this gets out over the next couple of days if they're going to be able to avoid it.

Because first of all, just the hook itself is awesome. Thank you, Yaz. But the Gaga in a Taylor Swift costume is something else. And as we talk a lot about the parts of music that are inevitably derivative and the line between that being that working and that not working, just to be very clear, I don't think this is a ripoff. Right? I think this is a creative exercise. And the line is fuzzy sometimes. But even the, so there's the first spoken part where she says,

so hot, hot that you can't speak. And it's such a Taylor cadence. So hot, hot that you can't speak. But then there's the other, that girl in your head ain't real spoken word part. That girl in your head ain't real. How bad do you want me for real? And that is so unmistakably in a gaga cadence that it just, I don't know, there's something cool about that moment of, I'm going to remind you that this is me. Like this isn't, we're not just doing a costume exercise here. What should happen is there should be a Charlie X-EX remix

that Taylor does on this in the deluxe version. Are you trying to like knock me out of my chair right now? That's where this should end up. You know, we're going to talk about more of the things on this album. Biggest hit we really just can't even argue about

because the answer is it's die with a smile. Fuck. Again, it's like, her second most streamed song besides shallow, over $2 billion on Spotify, insane. But this is a big song, I think. I agree. I don't, I don't, we are

biased a bit by our affinity for Taylor Allison, but this is a big song that is, to your point, she pulls it off. She pulls off injecting blank space into this song without it being a rip off. I mean, I think the only

reason that they don't is because you know, there's a bunch of royalties that are going to definitely have to go to Yaz. I think that it is also, like, I wonder if that's a writing exercise that was cool for her because you don't hear Gaga write in narrative vignettes, which is the Taylor staple, right? But you usually get Gaga songs that are big sweeping metaphors. And she's very creative in that format. I'm not at all taking away from that.

But, you know, you get you and me. could write a bad romance. It's very plain. Yeah. But the stuff about the, you know, I got a tattoo of us last week, like, you don't usually hear her writing like that. No. And I think it's cool. It is. There's nothing. And maybe it's Michael. But I think this one feels like she's inhabiting somebody else's body. Has Michael been Taylor Swift in a skin suit this entire time? No, absolutely positively not, is the answer. But I do think this is actually one, look, he, we'll get there.

I can't do it right now. I can't do it right now. But let's just settle on this song. I mean, it just, it peaks again, for me, a big part of the album starts with Killa. Zombie Boys cool. I mean, she's. There's a lot of sampling across this record. Like, Zombie Boy has some Jamirikai.

Zombie Boy has some Gwen Hollaback Girl. For sure. And so now we're there right after a song that definitely had some Bowie vibes after an opening set of songs that there's some Kesha, there's some of herself, the bad romance. So you're sort of conditioned

by the time you get to how bad do you want, me that she's weaving in a few little bits of borrowed stuff from herself and others. And it just makes it easier to get into it. And of course, like, you're going to be like, okay, well, this sounds like only you, but it doesn't. There's more to it. And the, I do think she's acting. She is an actor. She's an actor after off. She said, she's a razzy worthy actor who is acting very well on this, on this one. I also, for the record, I think Lady Gaga's problem is an actor since The Star is born has been the selection of the projects.

She's been the best thing in the two movies she's made that mostly stung. Well, so it's an issue of choices. Isn't it interesting, though? Like, I don't think that she can poop on her career after that movie, though. After Star is born, like, she's going to get more looks. Oh, totally. To your point, I don't think she's like scuttled her career in the way that, I don't know, a few other musicians who've tried to make the, I don't know, like what happened with the weekends show, you know, the TV show was just, I don't know. I mean, this, he's still playing stadiums. But I think that that show may be affected impact on the interest in the music.

I mean, that was a, that was a qualitative issue with the show and a continuation of a lot of uncomfortable stories about what it was like making euphoria. And then this Sam Levinson, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We don't have to. The idol. Well, yes, but it was the same. It was Sam Levinson who also did euphoria. And there was a lot of carryover of people not really loving being involved in those shows, which are both hypersexual in a lot of ways. So the vibes were bad, as was the content.

And I don't think, you know, okay, House of Gucci was not a great film. But Gaga was fine in it. Yeah. Okay. So I don't think that, yeah, as I've said and we'll probably say again, the Joker thing I'm just not getting involved in. So from my perspective, she's fine. She's basically one for one. well she is an actor and in this case she does that very well

are you with me on that middle section of the album because there's a there's a couple that we that we haven't touched on that i think probably deserve it i just want to know if we're going to talk about them in the context of what you might cut i mean coming out of how bad do you want me i like don't call tonight me too i mean there there's a little spot it's got Timberlakes rock your body on it towards the end. It's cool. It is another one of these that has Andrew Watt just holding down the groove

and then it just gets better and better as it goes. Well, and it has a lot of her own Alejandro in it. But then you get to that bridge and it sounds totally like a, a daft punk, you know, exercise and her doing that. And then this is an example of they go through that bridge

and then right after they bring her up and the vocal gets super, it sounds super close to the mic, and you just get the sense of her as a person. Don't go to night. It's not because you care.

And her natural charisma, which I do think powers a lot of this. It just takes over. And if I have any instinct to be like, okay, why are you making this song as catchy as it is that is sort of a stitching together of a song you already did and here's this daft punk thing, she's just selling it. And she sounds so happy to be doing it that I'm like, great.

No, give me more. I'm in. Yeah. I mean, there's an intensity to her that makes me wonder if it's, a lot to be around 24-7 or if she's got to muster this up and then that's why she's

like, you know, she's putting on a massive performance and then she retreats as a human. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I'm very, I'm very loathe to assume that somebody's public persona is

anything but a persona. I gotta say she comes off as so normal when she's just doing interviews, all the SNL stuff. And I wonder if that's sort of where... She comes off as normal to you. Yeah.

I mean, all she's talking about these days is wanting to like pop out a bunch of babies and hang out at home with Michael. Yeah, but while doing the robot in a massive shouldered costume that, you know, and a makeup job that we have not seen we've only seen recently in the Chapel Rhone style.

I mean, she's not normal. But I think she, I don't know. I think it's art to her. And she's, look, she's talked a lot and did in the New York Times interview that she did. And I think she's brought this up a few times. But as part of the promo for this, talk about the times in her career in the past where, the persona and the self got really muddied and how that was really hard for her.

But I do, I do really, I mean, I just am, I am, I find her very charismatic, I find her very charming. But that's not a debate. And I do think it feels, I mean, like, Michael's kind of a normie. Like she, she has, to me, she has this total normie side, which is kind of funny. Yeah, I mean, he's got another writing credit on Don't Call Tonight. And there's some, it just feels like some of the verses are overstuffed. Stars are descending.

The street signs go by. A lonely ride. I need to cry to feel alive. It's like, can we just edit that a little? No, Michael says, no. Okay. Well, we're going with it then because the back part of this song fucking kicks ass. So it feels like that happened.

few times. Okay. We roll right out of there. We roll out of there into some more disco. Shadow of a man has got that industrial disco, fun chorus.

There's Michael Jackson all over that shit. Totally. She speaks so fast. She sings so fast on this song. She says so many words. That's what I'm saying. I think Michael.

Watch out. Michael's got a little Yoko Ono going on. He's got a little Joe Alwyn going on. I don't know, Nathan, I don't know. You have to make this case to me. I couldn't disagree more.

Michael is my most important collaborator. This is a great album. I think I'll spoil a little bit. I think this is her best album since, I think this is her best full-length album since her debut. Or, you know, call it the fame monster, if you want to say that instead of just the original the fame. Okay.

And according to Lady Gaga, basically the reason we got this album as we got it, is Michael. I'm not disagreeing. I think he might be an industry plant designed to bring her back to this kind of music. Well, I think he might be Taylor Swift in a skin suit. So.

Well, look, then we'll call him not Yoko Ono because I don't think he's doing. Maybe we'll call him Joe Alwyn. It's just when the significant other dabbles, I get nervous. I get a little nervous. Totally. I was like, this is, I mean, I don't know why we didn't talk about this at the beginning, listing the reasons why we were a little.

bit nervous for this. That's like A number one, right? Is the working with the parent or the significant other? It's just like, oh, God, what's this going to be like? I mean, it's, you know, the best parts of the Selena Benny album are going to benefit from their relationship. And the worst parts, you know, are going to be the musical equivalent of them posting the nach cheese tub on Valentine's Day. But also, Benny Blanco is a professional music producer. Michael Polanski. Is not. Runs Sean Parker's charity? Yeah, it's an interesting, it's an interesting situation.

That's all I'm saying. Does he play an instrument? I don't know. But he definitely writes some songs. And what I want to say is I just think there are, there is some cringiness that when you are in the throes of love, that you tend to overlook or just own as your own. And so I take the cringy parts of the lyrics in this record as a good sign that she's deeply in love and happy and able to look beyond a few of those ridiculous things that a partner in a relationship might show and that she's, you know, that she's happy.

That's really my takeaway because I don't think, I think this is a really fun album. and I do not think that whatever Michael did in the aggregate was a net negative. I'm with you that it was a net positive. I think it was definitely a net positive in the sense that she's invoking his influence in the sort of like overall conception of what this ended up being. I am just, the thing that I am like, I need to know more is just all of the specific writing credits. because you're saying that when you hear cringy lyrics, you think that Michael was sitting there

being like, hey, I really like that one, babe. I still am finding it hard to believe that he had a lot of actual musical footprint. But like, I don't know. Maybe this is a genius that we don't, an undiscovered genius. He is a writer on disease. He is a writer on Vanishing to you.

He is a writer on Love Drug. How bad do you? you want me, don't call tonight, the beast. And he is a writer on the one song on this album that I think I would cut, even though Gaga said it was her absolute favorite when it was all said and done. The song, Blade of Grass, which for me contains the most and all of the cringe, but I understand that it's super meaningful for Gaga and that like it's an expression of where she is in her life and then they just like graft on Die With a

Smile they're like by the way Here's an 8 billion stream song Fuck off Tudaloo Blade of Grass to me is really the end of this album But I mean do you think that Blade of Grass is I know it means a lot to her Don't you think that it's on this album in part Because they wanted Die With a Smile to be there

Because a third of the A quarter of the population of this earth Has listened to Die With a Smile apparently and you need to breadcrumb your way to there. And Blade of Grass is just cheesy enough to get us to... Yes. It's a mottland valid.

Totally. I think the beasts... I don't know. No. I think the beasts and blade of grass maybe exist in part because they mean something to Gaga, but I think those basically exist to walk you and hold your hand to put Die With a Smile in. well could I have just been released from that journey

and ended this album around the beast or actually really shadow of a man because I'm with you like the beast is a little weak blade of grass is a little bit weak relative to the other stuff I think I think but I like the beast like the end again the end of the beast like she's the long vocal run at the end

it lets her growl it does feel like kind of pretty classic she sort of has covered that territory before but I don't know. What's the beast about? I think it's about, well, she has talked about it's her and Michael. It's her and it's Stephanie

versus Lady Gaga. It's, she talked about it a little bit as being like about love, which I didn't totally get. But love. Yeah, I mean, she said, look, her quote was,

the beast is me. or like someone singing to a lover that's a werewolf. Like she said it's images of the past that haunt me and they somehow find their way into who I am today. So it's, she said, I actually believe about this record is that it's also about Michael and I. This song is also about me and being Lady Gaga,

like what the beast is, who I become when I'm on stage, who I am when I make my art. That I sort of get. Turn on the music. Turn off the lights. I want to feel the beast inside. The girls are scared of you.

A legend in your neighborhood. Yeah. I don't. You don't think this song is about Michael's penis. Oh, God. Why do you bring? Come on, man. I didn't bring it up.

Stephanie brought it up. Are you kidding me? I mean, she talked to Zane Lowe for a while about this. She said, I don't know that he ever thought he'd be with someone like me. We built this friendship and a bond over how we share each other's mayhem with each other. You mean, you think mayhem is Michael's... Junk? I do.

I'm out. I'm out. I'm ejected. I'm out. This is an insane thing to say about the beast. I don't understand how you can listen to this song and have any other impression that that's what she's writing about. My God.

That she's writing a song about Michael's Werewolf that only comes out at night. Eject. Look, I cut it. I cut it. Do you think you did? Okay. But maybe that's because that's what I thought it's about.

Because you think it's about Michael's hog? Yes. Holy moly. What am I, I, I want to feel the beast inside. Well, I think she's sort of explained that. I'm not going down this rabbit hole with you. This is the craziest conspiracy theory. I've said all I need to say.

I've said all I need to say. I've shared my impression of the song. I did include it on my what I would cut list. What else would you cut? I mean, look. You're cutting off Michael's... Sure. I could cut this album off at the world.

You can't unhear. Oh, man. I didn't do this. This is not, she did this, not me. If this album ended at Shadow of a Man, which it effectively does for me when I listen to it, I would be completely fine with that whole experience. Yes. I wanted to push myself.

I'll say two things. One, Blade of Grass. I'm with you that it's totally. maudlin and I'm not going to listen to it a lot. I do have to say that when I listen to that song, there is part of me that's like, man, this woman can deliver a ballad. Like, this is why she can sit next to Tony Bennett and do the thing. Yes.

And I respect it. There's a rawness to the voice that carries the song through this, for sure. I wanted to push myself because my initial reaction was, other than that ending section, I'm going to have a real challenge coming up with stuff to cut because I really think this is very consistently. strong. If I have to choose one of the songs that I like, that I don't skip, but that I do think is a little bit weaker, I don't know that love drug is a super strong. Oh, I really love it. You like it? I like it, too. No, I like it too. I just, you know, the love as a drug thing is,

as we've heard it before. Yeah, it's overplayed. But I tried, I tried to check out again with the Michael words that are, that are stuffed in there. I don't know if it's Michael, but I think it is. I just, there's, if you give the second half of that song a chance, the first time I was like, ah, because I heard it lyrically, I was like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing, but then the back half of the song, I was like, yeah, fuck it, I'm in. Well, I mean, his love is her drug after all. So. Sounds like something else.

So that was the best that I could come up with. My honest answer is I don't want to cut anything until we get to the ballot section. Yeah, I feel badly cutting blade of grass because she's made it clear how important of a song it is to her and how much she loves it. I'm not sorry, though, because I'm sorry for this, Gaga, the rest of your album is too good. And we've heard you sing ballads before that crush.

And, you know, you got a ballad that follows it. It feels like J.B. shallow, kind of. Right. And you got a ballad that follows it that I don't think crushes, but the world thinks crushes. So it does crush. and this is in the way. I feel like maybe we've said this nine times at this point,

but I do feel like I'm taking crazy pills whenever I think about the song. I don't think it's bad. It's catchy. It's evocative in its own way. Yeah. It's the biggest song in the world and has been for months.

That's wacky. People love... Let me tell you something. There's a reason why... was just that for some time and why it's the only Gaga song that is streamed more than Die With a Smile because it's a duet with Bradley Cooper.

People love the male, female, back and forth, lovey ballad shit. They just do. It's a time-honored tradition. It's probably why her work with Tony Bennett went to number one, because you could sort of get into it. We just need this as a society for some reason.

this album did make me think and part of it is the tacking on of Die With a Smile. I think because Gaga's so clearly talented because she does have that real charisma that just brings me along with her,

I'm not going to say no matter what she's doing, but in a lot of different contexts. I think I have underrated how wildly bizarre her career is. How many different, just wildly, just wild directions she's gone in and how convincing she has made most, not all, but most of it. It is really impressive.

And I think part of my taking this is a little bit of an exercise in nodding to a lot of her different eras over the course of this one album. I got a lot out of that because it just, it kind of drove that home for me. well look we could cut we could cut those things i think it's okay there isn't something on here that's bad let's put it that way there isn't like a throw that shit against the wall get it out of here like there are some we've reviewed a few albums that in this area of the album in around songs 11 12 13 somebody has put out to somebody injected it a song that either they needed the songwriting credit or they thought they needed to fill it. There's no peacock.

Although, in a sense, the beast. He's so mad. I just, I can't believe you did this to me. I mean, so that's it. That's what we would cut. But I think you have yourself a solid through and through album here in spite of Michael's shenanigans, which we forgive because it's Michael shenanigans that got her back to this place to begin with.

And this is a really, really strong place for Gaga. So where do you think she goes next? That I don't know. I mean, that's the thing that I really thought hard about here because the last song on the album is not a lot like the rest of the album. I think where she goes next is on the road and she takes her pop show out.

And these songs, will play excellent in an arena through and through. Even the things that you think are, okay, zombie boy is going to crush. Garden of Eden will crush in an arena because there's fun and there's a lot of rock and they can do a full show and there's high energy and as long as she and her body can hold up through it all,

it's going to kick ass. I don't know where she needs to go from here. I think she probably is going to keep putting a foot in front of the other and surprise us with a direction that she's probably going to zag is the answer. Like she's come back to this and revisited it. It sounds like it was scary and not easy. I think she's going to surprise us with something totally new and different. And she has earned permission to go back off the reservation for a little while because she's, she's delivered something that fit back in the wheelhouse. I mean, when we say,

I mean, there's so many artists where we're like, oh, God, will you please go, can you please revisit? And we're not asking for the same thing that you've done before, but can you please just give a, come back to us a little bit? That's what she's done here in a way that I really take issue with the reheated nacho's idea if you're talking about it in the context of she's done all this before. Because she's toyed with that idea. She has done industrial pop before, but this is something new and different that, that is, that, that is. is an homage to that period, but not something that you're going to say, I don't have to have this.

This is a step forward as an artist, even if she's revisiting some things. Well, and it does make a difference that she's revisiting her things. She's refreshing her things. And as she said, they're her nachos, and she's proud of them.

And I'm proud of them for her. We have two more things. Yeah. I need a best lyric from you. And then we got a grade. Well, I gave you my best lyric, which is talking some shit with your hand on my ass.

I'm a murderer in disguise. So wacky. It's so crazy. But what is yours? I went with all the references to her past discography on perfect celebrity. Okay. I'm now with you

that the mayhem idea can encaps all of the different musical references that she's pulling together. And maybe that helps me conceive of this as like a whole thing with a concept. Not that I really need it. I actually think one of the wonderful things about this album is that it just feels music first, concept second. But initially, I just got a lot more in terms of scaffolding my own listen out of the idea that she's revisiting all of her own past, moments. And so I thought that was very cool. I also just the princess die of it all really made me laugh

because that's such a niche reference. I don't think we need to pretend that this is, that she's a Nobel laureate here. These are not, or that she's trying to be, right? I would know, production, performance, lyrical writing. I think lyrical writing is the least important element of this album. Where does her, where does the lyrical writing land for you, versus her dancing abilities. So she's... So when you frame it as dancing, I gotta knock some points off, right?

When you frame it as visuals, when you frame it as performance art? Oh, no. No, no. Those are different things. No, no, no. I mean, the choreography on SNL of Killa where she's thrusting like in the whole way.

Yeah, cool. I'm not going to say that's exceptionally talented dance and choreography, but it's amazing visual presentation. It's movement art. I just would say, I think on the Tate record, you know, you've got somebody who is a can't take your eyes off her dancer.

Lyrically, there was not as much happening there. This is, to me, from a lyrical standpoint, point, maybe even more boxed and contained, there's no dancing component, but visually and musically, I just felt so much more inspired and intrigued by these songs. And again, I probably came in with a bias to not be that into this album because of the singles, not because I think the singles are bad, just because I thought they were maybe more du-esque, which is to say not bad romance, not Not one, paparazzi, not, you know, one of the poker face, like one of those songs that is just an all-timer.

And like I said, I don't know that there is all, is an all-timer on here outside of, oh, God, with a smile. But this thing through and through keeps your attention. You are leaned in. And some of it is she commands you to be through her intensity and the way she's growling and singing. But as you just said, this, you cannot take your eyes off Lady Gaga.

And through this album, you can't really take your ears off her either. Yeah. And how many times have we talked in the last going on a year about how hard it is to reenter a space and recapture attention that has been lost? and I mean, look, Katie Perry is shooting herself into space. Absolutely evacuating the planet. Lady Gaga. God has done some work. Yeah.

Has done, I think, pretty clearly, at least to date, the most successful example of how to do it. And I gave it an A-minus. Yes. I couldn't, I couldn't quite get myself to A. Me neither. But I do, I really think that this is top to bottom. I think this is her best album since the fame.

Which is wild. Yeah. I need to think about that statement. I don't think it's wrong. And I thought about it a little bit too. I think born this way is something. and I'm a fan of art pop too, but you will not be disappointed with this album.

And the reason that I need to think about it is because I really think it shifts into gear on the sixth song. When you put on Killa, it's like, your ears go, what is this? And then going right in, Zombie Boy Love Drug, how bad do you want me? Like, you're almost laughing at that point. And it feels a little bit to me like,

this is saying this is a little bit too much because I actually think rise and fall of the Midwest Princess is in the aggregate an album that I enjoy even more than this one. But when your ninth song is maybe the best one on the album and it's preceded by three songs that are super strong and could be

like that deep into an album here comes Pink Pony Club, you've got something and she's got something. This is a really great piece of work. It sounds like a Gaga, Andrew Watt, collab, but this is what we want from our pop stars. Go in the studio, close the doors with somebody who we can trust, but who's different, and who's going to let you, who's going to challenge you, who's going to stretch you, who's going to contribute in something that is new and different, but that lets you still be the artist that you are.

And that's what she's done with mayhem. It is worth the chaos for 53 minutes, no doubt. In fact, you actually only have to listen for 49 if you just want to fast forward right through Die with a smile. Yeah, that's that's an A of an album, the 11 song version instead of the 14. All right. That was fun. I'm glad to have Gaga back. Yeah, let's do it. Nathan and I are maybe going to hang out.

This has been every single album. As always, I'm Nora Prince of Adi. He's Nathan Hubbard. Thank you to Kaia Macmillan for producing this episode, and we will talk to you soon.