Every Single Album - 'Midnights' | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Episode Date: October 23, 2022

Meet me at midnight, Taylor Swift's new album 'Midnights' is here. Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard break down the album and talk about where else from her discography she's pulling from (1:00), the biggest songs off of the album (18:37), whether or not Swift will continue to collaborate with Jack Antonoff (65:00), and the meanings behind some of the lyrics on this album (1:15:07). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This season on gamblers, I'm going to take you from the drag strips of Florida, where if you want to race, you have to put up $10,000. To the Lynx in Vegas, where you'll have to bet $40,000 a hole. All the way to the Casino de Monte Carlo in Monaco, where a game of badgammon can earn you 50,000 euros. From the Ringer podcast network, listen to Gambler Season 2 on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And welcome to a very exciting episode of every single album, Taylor Swift.

I'm Nora Prenziotti. I'm here, as always, with Nathan Hubbard. He and Karma vibe like that. Midnights is out. Nathan, how are you feeling? Hi. It's me. I'm the problem.

It's me. How are you doing? How are you feeling? It's Saturday morning. Midnights came out two nights, two nights ago? One of them, neither of us really slept, so I've sort of lost track of time and space. But I think we've had about 48 hours with this thing. I'm completely exhausted.

We have not had 48 hours. We've had at best 36. Okay. That's Math is hard. It's exactly 36. Let's go. Nora, you have been just absolutely giddy. I mean, there is something to be said for sleep deprivation.

over-inflating our emotions in both directions. But this has been quite a roller coaster for you. I want to know in this moment how you're feeling. I love this album. I love this album, Nathan. I don't think on initial impressions, I've felt this good about a Taylor Swift album since deep breath. I think 1989.

Oh, my God. You said it in the text yesterday, and I thought it was probably because you were at someone else's rehearsal dinner, just to clarify. And... Thank you. Hella drunk, like, Texas drunk. But no. No, okay.

I'm going to... No. I had... I'll be honest with you. I had three glasses of Prosecco. I really only wanted two of them, but my friend's, like, beautiful Australian friend was like, no, you should have another. And I was like, I'll do anything you say.

You're so cool. I will say that happened after two hours of sleep. So, like, you might have a point there, but I really, I really love it. I think it's really spectacular. I don't think it's perfect. I actually, I don't mean to, like, do gripey media criticism two and a half minutes into this podcast. But let's go. Here we are.

I'm frustrated by the fact that everything I read and see about it seems to either have to say, this is literally the greatest thing ever created or be kind of snarky and seem. kind of determined not to like it. I think the vast majority of things that I've seen are positive. I think overall the reception to this has been unbelievable. It broke the Spotify single day, release day streaming record. It just seems like by all available metrics, it's doing incredibly well. But I don't want to trap myself in saying it is a literally perfect album. There are songs that I don't like, but I think it's incredibly cohesive. I love the sound of it.

I don't know that I realized how much I missed Pop Taylor. I just, I think it's fun. I think it hits a lot of different moods while still connecting all together. Again, it's more sonically cohesive than I was expecting. I really, really love Midnights. I love it. This album is like if reputation and lover had a, a baby to me. And that's a good thing. We're going to revisit that concept a bunch because I have some

theories about what actually happened with this album. But the overarching takeaway for me is, man, she knows how to make an album now. And in particular, she and Jack know how to make an album. And the cohesiveness of folklore and Evermore, very, very, very different albums. And the the sort of mature, evolved songwriting that came out of those projects has now been grafted back on to pop,

and they made a concept album that from start to finish works. And the thing I want to know from you in this moment, though, is like, does this feel like an evolution to you?

Does this feel, like, we've gone through the entire Taylor Swift canon. And each step of the way, you know, there were some transitional albums, right? There was speak now, you could sort of tell we were at the end of whatever that bit of her genre, you know, her country, her footsteps through country. We could see it coming out. And then red was this transitional whip-sawing album back and forth between where she was and where she was going. It led into 1989, and that was the pop time, and we got reputation and lover. And then we, you know, we had the Evermore folklore era. Is this a new era? Is this her picking up where we left off pre-pandemic?

Tell me how this feels in the sort of evolution of her as an artist to you. So I think mostly it exists outside of that evolution in the way that we normally think about it, because if you take, I think folklore and evermore because of the context of the pandemic within which they were created, they are a little bit separate.

But if you think about her last several albums, they were all, each one was a response to the last one in a really clear way. So you had read as this thing

that one ushered in the pop era but also was something that she felt was going to be a crowning achievement. It doesn't win the Grammy. She goes for world effing domination on 1989. Gets hit with massive acclaim for that album, but then personal backlash. And then the next thing we get is the lashing out of reputation. After reputation, she wants to be happy again and have fun and we get lover. And all of those things exist in this very, like,

they're all telling a story together. I think midnight's, there are a lot of places where you can connect it back, but it feels like the time jump where then she went and did these two very different pandemic albums, it does feel like there's a little bit of a resetting there. Now, where I do feel like it's an evolution or just a step and in some ways a step backwards, but I don't mean that in a negative way at all is I think she missed being a pop star. I missed having her as a true pop star. You can tour with a lot of these songs.

I'm excited to sing them in a group of people. There are also some really, really meaningful, tear-jerking, cozy. Like, it hits so many different notes. But we got our pop star back. And I had, I think, forgotten how meaningful that was going to be to me. And it's, it's one of the things that's really making this just such a satisfying experience to me. Like, we, just to listen to this thing, because we talked so much about why is she putting this out now? Why, you know, is there a song that she felt like absolutely had to get out there?

And that was why she would interrupt the re-release schedule. And I think a lot of that is valid. And I still have some of those questions. And I want to hear your theories. But one thing that hit me listening to it was just, oh, an original album is a gift. There's 20 plus new songs that we get to just learn about and dive into and live within. And that's a really, really special thing. And we get that to some degree on the re-releases, both in the vault songs, but also in just

sort of the microscopic moments of comparing and contrasting new with old. And there are other reasons for those re-released projects that we've obviously talked about at length. And so both of those things are important. Yeah. But she put this album out now because she had a really good album and putting out albums

is part of her job. I think there's a simplest explanation thing going on here that I had lost sight of a little bit. A lot of the sort of formal music critic review of this album, a number of them referenced that moment

in the Miss Americana doc where she talks about being frozen at age 15 and not being being able to sort of fully move past that. And I just keep sitting with this album feeling like it is that the folklore Evermore experience, because she was really writing words and melodies in that project, that she honed her craft in a way that allowed her to be reflective on the Taylor

eras that came before. And I think the teaser that we got on Thursday Night Football of all those different videos in which she does seem aesthetically to be revisiting all of the eras and the album. I love storytelling. I love songwriting. I love writing videos. I love directing them. And this was a really fun opportunity to work again with the cinematographer, Rina Yang, who was my collaborator on the All Too Will 10-minute short film. And some of the music is explicitly self-referential.

She samples herself on this thing. Well, it is. And that's really where I want to go to, because the debate that I'm having internally right now is I think I can go through every single song on this album and point to places in Reputation Lover, 1989, red, where she has literally lifted parts of those songs. And I think that she started with bits of those songs

and reflected on who she actually was in that moment. was actually going on for her and built songs off of there. That is a little bit of a tin hat conspiracy, but I think as we go through this today, I'm going to be able to point to, and it's not hard, to the seeds of these songs that started in previous eras, but lyrically and the stories that she's telling about herself and the brutal honesty that she has on this album versus some of the character and sort of raw emotive responses to what was happening. the moment that we got on reputation, or the, I'm completely caught up in schoolgirl love that we got through lover. She's had some time to process all that. And it's almost like she retells those

stories through a different lens and with a stronger songwriting muscle. And these songs sort of fell out. And I think that that is the part for me that is fascinating about this album, is it is very much something old while at the same time being something new. an expression often used in the context of, no, no, sorry, we're not going to go there. So just so I understand your theory here, are you saying that if a song on Midnights lifts musically part of an older song, do you think that the older song is about the same moment? Do you think that she was going back and taking little bits of songs that she created about a certain experience and then coming back now with the benefit of hindsight and

fresh eyes and diving into the same subject matter? Or do you think that it's more random than that? I think it's very close to the same. I think that, yeah, I mean, I think it's not a coincidence that vigilante shit sounds a heck of a lot like I did something bad. She needed cold, hard proof, so I gave her some where you think she got it from. Sure. Or Lavender Hayes and I think he knows.

Lavender Hayes and I think he knows. She is unbejeweled. We'll talk about it. She borrows a bunch from reputation, but particularly gorgeous. Labrante is the Archer. Snow on the beach is a reinterpretation of Gold Rush. Same key. A lot of the same chords.

You, but it's coming down. No sound. It's all around. Place like Domino's. Midnight rain. Has no feature. Yeah. Exactly.

I mean, good God, we'll get there. Did it even happen? If a tree falls in the woods, if Lana Del Rey falls over in the woods. If Lana Del Rey breathes in the last third of a song. Did she actually feature? I mean, shout out Phoebe Bridgers. Just still. Heavyweight champ.

Yeah. I still say shout out high. I think they qualify, but Phoebe's still the only one with a verse. Yeah. it's pretty wild. And like you said, I mean, question literally interpolates out of the woods and has a lot of blank space in it. So we'll go through these songs individually,

but it does feel to me like it's not an accident. And I think that the visual parts of this album are going to complete the picture. We don't actually have the full story yet. She's going to do Fallon. She's going to do the Norton show. But I think that we are at a moment in time in the music industry where no artist going forward will ever be able to be just an audio recorded music artist.

And this campaign of an album showed us that. She intentionally released these things via TikTok. She has a YouTube short contest happening. she put all this stuff up through her reels and Instagram. She understands that artists going forward, and in particular pop artists, must be visual, short, and long form video artists. And I don't think we actually have seen slash heard the full album yet.

I think there's more to come here. So what you're telling me is she's a mastermind. That I can guarantee. All right. Should we do our categories? We're going to go through this like we've gone through all of her albums up to this moment. I will say, disclaimer for me, I have processing left to do with this thing. So we're going to have to dig into that and hopefully it'll be sort of therapeutic and will arrive,

at least for me, at some answers that I'm struggling with. But we're going to do our normal category. Should we kick it off? Let's go. Okay. So we always start with the biggest song. What do you have? It's anti-hero.

she's also the biggest person in the video but it's anti-hero and she told us this was coming there was no doubt from the video that she made that this song was deeply personal to her that it really mattered and there have been times I mean Nora the thing that you and I need to high-five

is she finally picked the right single way to go Taylor we're not fucking around anymore yeah and there's a world right in which anti-hero is track five and something else is the single and it's not right.

Now, I will say, I want to hear how this song hits you musically, lyrically, just sort of on what scale it resonates because I think

anti-hero is undoubtedly the choice here. I think it's an incredible song. It had the biggest opening day for a single in Spotify history. It got like over 17 million streams. This album is really cohesive

was the thing that we said very close to the top here. this isn't an album that has one or two songs that very obviously grabbed me more than anything else. When I did my first listen through, and even after my second and third listens through, anti-hero definitely stood out to me in a lot of ways, particularly, you know, some of the lyrical content, it's very honest. I wasn't immediately sure what I wanted the first song that I re-listened to to be. Sometimes you listen to an album and go, oh my God, I have to hear track four again.

That didn't happen to me with this. So what do you think about this song, other than the fact that it got the music video, it is the single. She's talked about it very personally, those external elements. What is it about the song within the song itself that you think makes it the song of Midnights? I had to go back to it because of the just raw honesty of, it's me. I'm the problem. It's me. and to me contrasting that with what we got last from her,

the new verses, quote unquote, old, but new verses on 10 minute all too well, where, you know, the actress in the bathroom asking me what happened, you, that's what happened, you. And that's really the last big moment that she just, she gave us. And on this album, the big moment is, it's me. I'm the problem, it's me. And so there's this wonderful evolution of Taylor Swift who has done a lot of therapy, it sounds like.

And I say that, you know, only half joking. I mean, clearly she has done the work on herself. That's what I took away from this album is, yeah, she's brutally honest here. And sometimes, you know, and I speak from experience when you're like really self-deprecating. It's actually in service of like an insecurity and wanting somebody to tell you you're not the problem. Right. And there is some of that thread through this entire album lyrically, but she's cognizant of it.

And it's why Mastermind is the final track is perfect, because she takes that contrived word that we use all the time and says, fuck yeah, I am. And it's Machiavellian and it's on purpose. What if I told you none of it was accidental in the first night that you saw me, nothing was going to stop me. and she gives us a bridge that we'll talk about that sort of tells us why she does that.

But on anti-hero, that contrast for me is what sticks out. Hey, she holds the S on a grease. It sounds a lot like this. So yeah, at the end of I forgot that you existed. It's love, it isn't hate, it's just indifference. So, yeah. The chord progression here is lifted out of we are never, ever getting back together.

but it is, she's teaching us about who she is in this moment. And in a lot of her previous pop music, she was pointing the finger out. And in this song and on this album, she's pointing the finger in. And so for me, I came back to it again and again and again, and I still do. I love that the song is weird. Like, my favorite thing about this song is that the song where they're like, well, there's like nine different things, right? And we will talk about sexy baby.

A sentence, I don't know that I ever thought that I was. say in my entire life as long as I live. But I give a lot of credit to her and Jack for letting what is, I think, successfully the song of the album and definitely meant to be the song of the album. Be strange. The growling you talked about on everybody agrees. Everybody agrees is weird. The way that she kind of goes into spoken.

Right. The spoken word, it's me. Hi. It's me. Which we now find out echoes how she introduced the Midnight's Mayhem videos because nothing is a coincidence. It's me. Hi. The fact that there's this whole scene at the end about getting murdered by her daughter-in-law.

Right. I have this dream. My daughter-in-law kills me for the money. She thinks I left. This is a ridiculous song in a lot of ways. And it has a sense of humor and it has some fun to it. Is the video fun? Yes, because it's wacky.

But is like the breakout with the actors being her children? It's genuinely sad in a lot of ways because this is a person who absolutely knows what it's like to be used, right? And she's talking about that. There's a lot of that in this album. There's acknowledgement of the fact that this is one of the reasons I love that anti-hero is not track five. Intrusive thoughts and the parts of that. of our brains that take real emotion, like I'm sure she feels about people taking advantage of her fame, her talent, her name, and can spin that in the middle of the night into what if

my daughter-in-law someday pushes me off a balcony? Right. That's not, that's actually not tragedy. The fact that that happens inside of our brains is just a fact of being human and being able to be vulnerable about it, even just by talking about it, is sort of funny because we can all connect over that just total irrational ability to blow things so out of proportion mentally that I'm really, really, really glad that it doesn't get positioned as like deep tragedy, which I think is one of the successes of the song. And against the backdrop of, wait, step kids? Does Joe have you?

Step like all of the drama about her personal life, which she has already shut down to a certain extent on the opening track in Lavender Hayes, basically being, you know, complaining rightfully so about the endless speculation about whether she's going to get married, as if all you can see is, you know, a woman can only be a one-night stand or a wife. Amen, Taylor. Nor is it a wedding. I love weddings. I do love weddings. I want everybody to get married, but only if they want to. The covert narcissism. Like, it just, it's.

she is on it here. She's on it. She's writing in ways, not just like her actual vocabulary, but the synthesis of ideas, these are things she could not do the last time she was a pop star. So we'll talk about this when we talk about best lyrics, but the quadruple rhyme schemes in this thing, I mean, the narcissism, altruism,

but then the dreaming, scheming, leaving, screaming, prices, vices, devices, crisis. That is a flex. These are flexes from this woman on this thing. And I also don't want us to leave this conversation about this song without bringing up the fact that I think it's one of, particularly just the moment when it comes in, I think it's one of the clearest and sort of juiciest

best-sounding vocals on the album. I love how it sounds. Yeah. Also, the Spotify videos in the background of the songs she's different in a lot of them. And in a number of these, we get my favorite visual images of Taylor, which is when she's just like right out of bed

wearing a sweater, like no makeup on it's just her. She's totally vulnerable. There's no facade. There's no mask. And she's up in the microphone, as you say, sort of like deconstructing her vocal

and the song is sort of devolving and she's just sort of trailing off. And it just feels she's right. This is as honest as she's ever been in a song. And again, it's not, she doesn't position it as, it's simultaneously a big deal and also not. It's just how she feels. And that's, that's okay.

And like, I love how that balances out in the song. I have one question for you. And then I think we have to talk about sexy baby. Oh, Lord. But we both agree that this is the biggest song on the record. I think it's performing in a way that backs that up so far. Is there anything else for you that feels like it's going to stand out among the songs on this thing? Yeah. And you know, it's would have, could have, should have. And that's why it wasn't on this album.

Because the lyrical content of that song, which is about losing her virginity and having a massive amount of regret about it would have overshadowed what is otherwise a wonderfully connected and interwoven and succinct 13 song concept album. Right. I mean, we may think, right, but a lot of people will, it would have, I think that's right. I think it would have completely just taken over the narrative. And it also musically is a Desner track, whereas this is, as she said in the announcement, this is really the first time it's just been me and Jack is the primary contributors.

and so there is a, there's just a great consistency across the entirety of this album. We would have said that, look, first half reputation, very different than back half. Lover has its hits and misses and it's long, right? What she, even folklore and evermore,

there's, you know, gold rush contrasted with, tis the damn season. We could call it even. You could call me babe for the weekend. Tis the damn season, right this. Those are clearly different musical kernels and people that they started from.

So I loved that she released this. She could have just put what it could have should have out, you know, as a standalone track. Surprisingly, there were enough good songs around it to sort of warrant the additional 3am stuff. But this is the one that I think would have been big. I don't know we should talk about whether. musically, it would live up to lyrically what it is. I mean, it sounds a lot like madwoman, Nora. You're talking about what could or should have. Yes. It just doesn't feel like the big single that it could have, right? It feels more of a subtle, it's inside baseball, that song is, I think. Even though it builds and is a wonderful song and very powerful in its own right, if you don't know the inside John,

Mayor stuff, it probably doesn't hit in the same way that anti-hero does. And when you're reintroducing yourself to the broader pop audience, I understand why they might have shied away from it and tried to keep it out of the sunlight of the, here's the album. And oh, by the way, fan base, here's something that might have even shown even brighter for you. Oh, I think that's, I think it's a very good choice to save it. One, because it's, holy crap, surprise, it's 3.30 in the morning and I'm listening to this really, really powerful song. But to your point, it would simultaneously suck up a lot of oxygen just with the sort of tabloid fodderiness of it for people who know the stories behind all of this stuff. And then for people who don't, it's probably a little

bit less accessible. So I think it was a great choice to save it, but I do think that that should be up there. Right now, the next biggest songs on streaming behind anti-hero have been lavender haze, snow on the beach, maroon, and you're on your own kid. But I think that has to do with them just being at the top of the album. That's exactly. So I think, I think Bajouled is a big ass song. Yeah, I love that song. I really do. I just don't know that it's, I mean, Jack listens to a lot of jazz.

But, like, I think that one from a pop perspective feels like it could be the next single. Is there anything else for you that is, like, big? So, okay. Let's, I want to make sure that at some point we loop back and discuss, sometimes I feel like everybody is a sexy baby. Because we can't end this podcast without going there. The line, the line on a. standalone basis is super weird.

But if you think about it, like, I think what it's intended to be, which is like King Kong climbing the tower, and she reflects that in the video where she's bigger than everything, and she just sort of, you know, like, coming, the big monster coming, like she's Godzilla.

Every single one of those movies has the damsel in distress. I get it. It's a little jarring if you don't take in the full image. But once you saw it via the video, Was it still a jarring line? So I actually kind of deal think it's a good metaphor.

It's just unhinged. Like, I don't, I think we should just let it be strange. I agree with you. It's kind of compelling. The way that once you see the video, you're like, oh, that's actually seems like a really good way to kind of approximate.

It must be how she feels. She's just always uncomfortable and out of place. She's too big for every. She's too big for everything. She can't, she can't like go to a CVS. She also can't go to a birthday party without like changing. Yeah. No, no, totally. That must be how she actually feels. Like it's a great metaphor for that. And, you know, they, they just can't kill her. No matter what they, she's just too big. And no matter how many airplanes circle around and arrows they shoot. Like, they, they just can't take her down because she's too much of a big thing. I'm not going to say, I'm not going to give details here. But I was at an event recently that, a fairly famous person attended. And nobody else who went was famous. And they had to give instructions about if you were going to post something on social media, when you could do that and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And it was not, the event was not for the famous person. And... Did you go to Bob Craft's wedding? No, this is not what that is. But that's a good guess. I'll tell you offline. I'm not going to stay here. I thought to myself,

that must be kind of, like, in a weird way that sucks. Like, it sucks to have to text your friend, hey, can you do this, this, and this? Otherwise, like, I cannot physically be part of it. Yes. And this, the person is not nearly as famous as Taylor Swift. Right. It's impossible to be her.

It's a great metaphor. The monster on the hill, like, lurching to your town. Like, she just can't go anywhere without, like, There's just always collateral damage when she goes anywhere. Also, you know she must feel it really deeply because she was like, no, I feel strongly enough about this, that everybody is going to have their headphones in or be at their listening party. And all of a sudden, through the sound emanating from their streaming service or their record or whatever, it is going to say to them, sometimes I feel like everybody is the same.

sexy baby. Okay, moving on. Oh, no, we can't. Here's the other thing. I think it might be anish 30 Rock reference. Because in the episode, Tracy hates women, there's this whole thing about like... Oh, you are a maniac. No.

Liz, they hire this female writer who has this total, who uses this, like, sexy baby voice. And then she's like, I'm not being a sexy baby. baby for men, it's who I actually want to be. Go watch the episode. It's very funny. It's very hard to explain. But I listened to it and I was like, wait, where have I? I've heard that before.

That has to be from somewhere. And it is from this 30 Rock episode. I'm a very sexy baby. I will also mention that John Early, who plays Chad in the video, was in another episode of 30 Rock as Jenna Moroni's egg donor child. So I'm just saying Everybody's been on 30 Rock But okay

I can buy that for sure Having having plant I mean Lavender Hage she got from Mad Men So it seems like She has to spend a lot of time Inside watching videos Well and like Lavender Haze

You can freak everybody out So You can record You can record An Instagram video And be like Yeah like Lavender Haze Is this cool concept

I was watching Mad Men And the phrase really stood out to me and I looked it up and it made a lot of sense and I really related to it. You're in the lavender haze. She couldn't do that if she was like, hey guys, it's Taylor. So I want to tell you about anti-hero. I was watching 30 Rock and there's this thing about a sexy baby. And I just thought like that's what being famous feels like. It just wouldn't work.

But it feels like sexy baby is like the damsel in distress versus an actual baby. No, right. I know. I think it's about, it's about the, the dueling expectations of women to be eternally young, but also mature sex objects. It makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you. Thank you for making, thank you for clarifying that. Also, can we just say Lavender Hayes like, how come no one's like, dude, somebody I wrote a song called Purple Hayes? It's not like this is a crazy new phrase that's never been discussed. Like Hendricks sort of had this in the 60s. I mean, also, we're talking a lot about the, the, there was the controversy over whether she was queer baiting with the name of lavender hayes and

if that was an improper color to use. The song after it is called maroon. This woman likes colors. She is a crayola box of an artist. Major synesthesia victim. We got to chill out a little bit once in a while. You asked me before I insisted that we talk about everybody being a sexy baby. if there was anything else that really stood out to me beyond anti-hero. And the answer to that is yes. So I move that we should talk about the best song or songs. Because, and I'm just going to give this all to you and you can tell me what we should talk about. Okay.

Because I could not choose. I'm not ready to do that. I couldn't do it. So I did tears, which is ironically a thing that I used to hate when my former NFL show co-host, Kevin Clark, would make us do on the NFL show and he would be like, rank the NFC in tears, but now I need to do it in... You like the tiers from our song ranking...

Yes, you've got me on tears. Okay. So here are my tears... T-I-E-R-S, not T-E-A-R-S. Although there were some of those as well. This is sort of in order, but the order within the tiers... Like, one of the things that I think was really complicated for me

and one of the reasons I couldn't just pick one song was because... The top tier I made, I called the Knock Me Over with a Feather Tier. Okay. And that has anti-hero and would have, could have, should have. That's it. That's it. Huh.

I don't know that I think that those are necessarily better songs than the best of the next tier I have, which I'm calling elite bops and exquisite vibes. And it contains karma, lavender hayes, bejewy, Huss Harris Mastermind and hits different which is the bonus track

Mastermind Mastermind I can't do it only you can do it hits different songs are more fun Did you have time to go to Target? No

no I will be honest I will be honest as a person who like And get a CD player No I don't even know how to play I just I don't know I'm at a wedding. I couldn't go to Target. I'm very sorry, Taylor. Somebody tweeted it and I listened to his different. I don't normally do that stuff. I want to hear the album the way that she intends it. I did it. The song

rules. It's a bop. I love it. I did. I gave myself an entire blowout yesterday before I went to this welcome party, just like toggling back and forth between two separate Twitter videos that because they couldn't post the whole song in one file. And I was just like, I would like put my blow dryer down and like scroll to the next one. And just I just went back and forth for like 45 minutes. Okay. I am generally with you on the bucketing of these songs. Karma, I can't figure out yet.

I think it's pretty awesome. It's fun. Talk to me about karma. It is so much fun, first of all. It's just ridiculous. It is that campy. I am a fan of Camp Taylor and Jack and Taylor on this song

are giving us that in spades. It also, musically, I think on first listen, you don't kind of get how much it's giving. By the end of that song,

like the, don't you know that cash, like the harmonies that get layered in there. Chit me once, trick me twice. Don't you? or the cash ain't the only price. There's really a lot going on beneath the surface of this thing

where you can listen to it. You don't just listen to it once and go, oh, that's funny. I can make that an Instagram caption or whatever. You listen to it again and it gives you a little bit more. And you listen to it again and it gives you a little bit more. I cannot wait to hear this thing on tour. It's a party.

It's silly. It does not take itself too seriously. It is that glitter gel pen thing that she's taught us. about, like, I'm so in on karma. Karma is a cat. Yeah, it's, karma is everything but a bitch in this song. And given the preponderance of swear words, just jammed in our face across this album, I love that this one actually comes out a little clean.

Who the hell is Spider Boy? Spider Boy, Keep the Fees with your little webs of opacity. I don't know. I'm going to be honest, I meant to Google that before we started this pot, and you're now reminding me that I forgot. I don't know. Do you know? There's been some chatter that maybe it's Scooter, but like, Scooter Braun, we need to understand who Spider Boy is. Speaking of which, is Nice Boy Ed, like, this album told us nothing about nice boy Ed, did it? Like, what a red herring.

Except that I guess that some of the vocal modulations or like the vocal treatments could maybe mean that Nice Boy Ed was definitely, Taylor. all along. I think that's what we're going to have to talk about. But let's come back on that one. So karma, karma, I think is the one for me

that I'm just not sure if it's, you need to calm down or this is why we can't have nice things. And like the fun sort of will play well in the moment in an arena or stadium show song or if there's real depth and substance. And it doesn't need to be deep and substantive. But will this make,

the playlist of really fun Taylor songs. And I hear you saying, yes, I am wanting to come back to Bejeweled because I really, like, even when she said it in the intro videos, I was like, oh, Bejeweled, what is this going to be? Bejeweld joins Lover as the song that I had a viscerally negative reaction

to the title of. Yes. Really, really like. Lover. Yes, I do. I mean, there's at the like one minute five second mark where she says too good of a girl

It's a lot like the Hate You So Much part in gorgeous It's in the same key But like also Like at the two minute, 15 second mark And we're dancing all night And you can try to change my mind

which might have to wait in line It sounds a lot like the first 10 seconds of dress Our secret moments in a garden room They got no idea about me and you And so I can let it go

Because the song is just fun And it is a I don't give a fuck moment that we did not get out of the last two albums Yeah, and look, she's written a lot of songs, right? We've talked about this. There are questions about the future of pop music and how people are going to contend with the fact that there's only so many ways to rearrange a chord progression.

And once you're on your 10th studio album, you're going to repeat some stuff. You're going to borrow from the past. I think that what matters is how much you do with the rest. rest of the stuff. Yeah. I famously didn't enjoy the song champagne problems initially. Your heart was glass. I dropped it.

Champagne problems. It has grown on me somewhat, but that's still a song that is not a new chord progression where I don't think it does a ton to add super new elements beyond some compelling storytelling. Yeah. Bejewled, on the other hand, one of the things that's stood out to me immediately was the number of times they tweak the melody in just small ways. The song kind of unwinds itself when you get to the end.

That's evidence of the work that went into making this a special thing, a new thing, something that we can sink our teeth into and not feel like we've had it before. And some of that comes through, you know, Jack is a fairly heavy-handed producer, right? So you get those like nice little moments. Right. and all of those touches that get layered in. But I think they do a lot with this thing. Yeah.

Oh, my God. I am so excited for somebody to match up. It's me. Hi. I'm the problem. It's me. Yes, it's coming. It's me.

But I love the song. I think it's just such a bop. I polish up nice is a great line. It's also going to be like, you know, I say this with self-awareness. probably the best contender for Instagram caption white people will overuse comes from this song.

There's a few of them in there. Fair enough. I'm just saying. I understand. You know, to be honest about when we're giving off Live, Laugh, Love vibes. Yeah.

Fair enough. And she's doing that there. There's a lot of... I don't think she's doing it. I just think that there will be a lot of Instagram posts captioned, I polish up real nice. there's a bit of a corny factor.

Fair enough. Fair enough. So, bejeweled, we definitely agree on. She also refers to someone being high and that there's a lot of... I love, love, love, love, that the... Some Guy Said My Ores, Moonstone, just because he was hot. Like, that's so silly. It's so fun. It's delicious. No, it is. So the other song in that, that we should just...

dive a little bit deep into is Lavender Hayes. Tell me why that one hit in your category. First of all. In your tier. The vibes. The sheer vibes of Lavender Hayes.

It's such a cool song. It's cool as hell. Yeah, it's just a fun, like it has a little bit of that. I know musically it has a lot in common with I think he knows. I think sort of aesthetic-wise,

the song that feels like I think he knows to me is Paris. And that is in a really, really good way. Just that bubbly euphoria of new love and excitement over that is so fun

for her to be willing to go there with because it's not cool. It's a little bit corny and I love that. Musically, I know Lavender Hayes is a little bit closer, but it's so cool

the way that it, the production I think is spectacular. I think they did a really, really, really good job with the song. I think when you get to the end with the get it off my desk, that's just like, that's a bar. Yeah. She feels awesome. You can tell. This song is a sexy baby.

It's a sexy baby. Yeah. It's great. It's really terrific. Thank you, Zoe Kravitz. What the hell? Yeah. Mad shoutouts to Zoe Kravitz for dropping in on this one. I mean, look, I think it's the best album intro that she's ever had. Tell me what's better.

The one? Good. I'm on some new shit. Been saying yes instead of no. No. Uh, I mean, you know that I am a state of grace, Dan.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, I, it's really, really, really, really strong. Well, I appreciate that song a lot. So the last song in your tier then is Mastermind. Mastermind. Tell me what you think about Mastermind. I think it is so fun. I love her owning all of the plotting and scheming.

I will say the bridge is, I would probably be over the moon for this song. I don't think the bridge works super well for me. Are you kidding me? No. I think it's the best part of the album. The like, nobody liked me, nobody wanted to play with me when I was a little kid.

Yes. I literally think it's the best part of the album, Nora. Oh my God. No one wanted to play with me as a little kid, so I've been scheming like a criminal ever since to make them love me and make it seem effortless. This is the first time I felt the need to confess. And I swear I'm only cryptic and Machiavellian

because I care. I love that line. I love that line. That is awesome. I don't think the vocal is particularly strong. I also can't tell if... It's the point. Do you think that she is earnest?

Yes. Listen to me. I fucking believe her. She is a mastermind. I mean, the whole way the song starts with this sort of happy go lucky planet alignment stars all together. And then just musically, bam, you're out of it. She goes, checkmate, I couldn't lose. And you're in it.

And she's telling you that she plans this stuff. This song is the key to her psyche. And it's why it's the last song on the album. Like she's telling us, upon reflection, 13 songs of reflection on moments through the entirety of her career, on songs and musical ideas from the entirety of her career, she's ending by telling us, A, yes, it is all Machiavellian.

Yes, I plan these things. Yes, it's all structured. and all of these pieces come together in my mind, and I massively overthink them. But in that bridge, she tells us where it comes from. It's this hole in her that is almost insatiable. It's unfillable and that has driven this forever. But she does this because she cares.

Where it loses me is that I can't tell. I believe that sentiment. I also very much believe that as a big piece of her personal history, right? We know that. That is settled historical. I cannot tell if that is supposed to be a revelation or commentary on her own meta-narrative. I just, it doesn't, it doesn't reveal itself as something where I can put a finger on where she's coming from. I can't tell if she is making a little bit of a commentary on the fact that

this is a thing that we talk about with her or if she's having a moment of sort of self-exposure. I think it's a moment of self-exposure, and it ends in us understanding why she ended up with Joe. Who she's told us all the time is not about the spotlight, not about any of that. But there he is with that grin, seeing her. I love it. I love the song. Seeing her. I laid the groundwork and then saw a white smirk on your face.

You knew the entire time. I love the song. And I love the idea that you are explaining to me. it doesn't fully resonate in that transition. Maybe it is just a little bit too abrupt for me to latch on to. Because I think what you're explaining makes all the sense in the world, and it's a really, really cool idea. It is not one that it doesn't penetrate for me in the moment when we get to the bridge of that song.

I do think I'm only cryptic and Machiavellian because I care is so good. It's terrific. this is in competition for my favorite song on the album. It's up there for me too. It's really, really up there for me too. It's just that that is a weaker moment for me. Okay, so then snow on the beach, we'll get to you're on your own kid, but snow on the beach, talk to me about that. I need to give you my last two tiers.

Oh yeah, oh, please. So the third tier I did was canon, like songs that I think very, very, much belong in the Taylor Swift canon. And will you listen back to these on a regular basis or not? Oh, more than that. Okay. So in that category I have, you're on your own kid. Bigger than the whole sky.

Sweet nothing. The Great War and Maroon. And then the last tier that I outlined is Will Be Getting Play. And that's vigilante. and snow on the beach. Lately she's been dressing for a van. It's like snow at the beach. Weird but fucking beauty.

And you, so again, getting to this is roughly in order. You put snow on the beach below Great War, bigger than the whole sky, which I kind of thought were a little meh. Bigger than the whole sky hit me like a ton of bricks in a lot of ways. And Great War is giving me a lot in terms of melody. that I don't think is necessarily something that's foregrounded in a ton of these songs,

but there's something, it hits different, did this too. There's a little bit of like an older Taylor that comes out in those songs that I think is really nice to hear. That leaves me with the songs that I didn't mention, or Midnight Rain. Midnight Rain. He stayed the same. Question. I like Clabyrinth.

Can I ask you a question? Did you ever have someone kiss you in a crowded room? Question is the one of those that probably... And actually, Glitch... I love Glitch. Is climbing up for me. Keep listening to Glitch. It must be counterfeit.

I think there's been a glitch. Yeah, glitch is cool. I can't believe with all the swearing on this album she didn't rhyme Glitch with Bitch. But the song is... It's super interesting. Yeah. It's a cool song.

It's a really, really cool song. The takeaway from that should be that on a collection of, let's call it, 21 songs because I'm including hits different. Yeah. If we say that the, if we go all through the ones

from things that I think are iconic songs to songs that will be getting a serious amount of play on playlist for me, we're at, I think, 17. Yeah. I don't believe you. You always do this. this. I don't believe you're going to come back. No, I do not. I did not have this reaction.

I did not have this reaction to folklore evermore. And I didn't, and I love reputation, but, and I had a pretty positive initial reaction to it, but not like this. My only point. I will say I had a really, really, really strong initial reaction to lover that didn't totally hold up. I like that album a lot, but like I screamed. This is not about your reaction to the whole album, Nora. I'm just trying, I want to be honest. You're casting a very broad net on the songs that you will come back to. And I think the more that you go out in time, some of these might fall off in the same way that some of the vault songs fell off. But that's just because I think I, you know, we've mined it in lots of ways. We'll see. I'm not sure that's going to

happen. Oh, then that will, that will speak volumes about the quality of this album. But of everything that you just said, I got to come to snow on the beach because explain yourself. That is a very, on a relative basis, that is a very low ranking. And I want to understand why. So, I mean, even Janet Jackson approved of this song.

It's nice. Yeah, that was badass. This is a daylight to me. Where a lot of it, I agree with you, is kind of meh. But by the end, when Lana,

if you squint and cup your ears, comes in, with some whispered backing pocals. Lana, from the bathroom, is like... Very pretty. Yeah, she, like, pokes her head in for 30 seconds at the end of the song and whispers a few things. Jack's like, it's a feature.

What does it mean to be a feature? Are we sure she's actually here? Zoe Kravitz has... Like a much stronger imprint on the... The only reason we know she's here is because of the pictures that got tweeted and posted Instagram. They tweeted some pics, and Taylor was like, Lana Del Rey is one of my favorite artists of all time

and therefore I have chosen to use her before. I'm going to allow her to whisper on this. Look, Nora, this is Gold Rush. The verse of Gold Rush is the chorus of snow on the beach. Same key, same everything. Yeah, but it's coming down no sound. It's all around. Place like Domino's nose. Yeah, but the, but the vibes are not as cool. I, but this song could have existed on Evermore.

Yeah, I agree. I like the way it builds. It has like the sort of nutcracker strings to it. It actually would have done a lot for your Evermore's a Christmas album thesis. Yes, of course. It's got snow and everything else. Lana participates in this less vocally than I think she probably did in the actual crafting of the song. Because who could have written the line weird but fucking beautiful than the woman who created an album called Norman fucking Rockwell.

Yeah, I don't, that's the ones where I can't get behind on this album. It is very much in your face. It feels, yeah. It is, but I like this song. And you said in the pod that we did, where we sort of speculated about what was going to happen, and we said, what are the vibes of this album going to be? And what was our collective answer?

We both came out from the same place. What was the song? It's Gold Rush. And this is Gold Rush. heard it. I thought, first of all, validation for Nora and Nathan. Terrific. Big pats on our back. No one wanted to play with us as kids either, Taylor. But second, I thought, I used to play duck, duck, duck, goose by myself with my stuffed animals. Yeah. I mean, I was an only child and I had fun doing that, but whenever I tell people that, they're like,

oh my God, are you okay? Yeah. I, look, I had heard Lavender Hayes and gone, oh boy, I hear a lot. I think he knows even though it's a different song, but you can hear the kernels of it. And then Maroon came and I was like, this is a cousin of dress. That's a real fucking legacy for dress. Anti-hero, again, you hear, we're never getting back together.

Snow on the beach was where I was like, this is not an accident. Like, they are taking parts of songs and reimagining and reinterpreting and she's speaking to things that were happening at the time. And then, of course, we get your on your own kid,

which doesn't have, a very direct relationship with a previous Taylor Swift song. But it definitely has a reference that we'll discuss in a minute. Do you want to discuss it now because I need to see if it's the same? It's Castle on a Hill. It's Castle on the Hill. It's Castle on the Hill. Ed Shearin did not make this album, but Nice Boy Ed Shearin did in the form of the pre-chorus

to You're on Your Own Kid, which directly lifts the pre-chorus from Castle on the Hill. And I love it. Because Ed is in court for, you know, rewriting a bunch of songs, including Marvin Gay and all this shit. And it was like, oh yeah? Listen, I'm a champion of songwriters all over the world. I've fought vehemently. I've taken massive business risk in service of reclaiming the rights to my own art.

I'm taking your shit and dropping it on a track five, motherfucker. This is actually devastating for my own attempts to argue that I don't hate Ed Shearron because I do like Castle on a Hill, but I like your on your own kid better, so now I don't have to listen to it. Castle on the Hill is a great, great song. I love that song. But, I mean, it's why it's really why I like you're on your own kid, except that lyrically, you're on your own kid is dark and wonderful and incredibly revealing. We're here. so let's break it down. I mean,

hosted parties and starved my body. I mean, this album, you get through that song and again, the look back of what was happening

for her, this is the album that tells you who she was when you thought you knew who she was. And she's talked about her struggle

with eating disorder before, but the sort of just directness on this, what's with the blood-soaked gown, do you think?

Who is Daisy May? This song is dark. Well, do you think Daisy May might have revealed the future name of Blake Lively and Ryan Reynolds' child? I mean, maybe in which case, like, I'm disappointed because the rest of this, it's a very, like, within a track five, really, like, do we keep have to go in an album that is somewhat about her struggles with being a celebrity and wanting us at the end in Dear Reader to not have her be our hero, right?

It is exhausting rooting for the anti-hero. It is exhausting rooting for you, Taylor. So please don't let this be their child's name. I would so much... Well, I guess it is physically exhausting because we... Yeah. It is physically exhausting. I mean, the whole thing she put us through is...

You and I... Okay, but it's emotionally energizing. Like, this is the closest I will ever get to knowing what it feels like to take hard drugs. It's just, like, mainlining a Taylor Swift album. there are also references to hard drugs in this. That's true. So maybe that's, maybe that's...

And murder! But, right. But this is a very, very heavy dark track five. Just to close the loop on a question you threw out in there, I think the blood-soaked gown, I think, is a carry reference. Okay. Which, you know, I'd take what you want from that. It's sort of like, that's another.

Nobody wanted to play with me when I was a little kid moment. But I don't know that she does a whole lot more of getting into that reference. But that's how I took that. There's something. There's something. There's something. Like, at some point in your life, you get to a place where you realize that, like, you can't depend on the people around like the hardest moments of your life yeah there are people

there who help you and and they're there for you but at the end like there's a you know she's getting into her 30s now and i just wonder if this is part of that realization that you are it's just you you you surround yourself with the best people you possibly can but there is an inherent loneliness to our existence there is an unbelievable loneliness to being taylor swift because she is the monster on the hill. And so to me, this is like reflecting back to that moment when she sort of figures out that this is what it means to be human being. Well, and also, the song doesn't seem like it explicitly goes there at all, but I think one of the things that leads a lot of people to that realization as they grow up is parents getting older. And having been, you know, somebody's child who got taken

care of. And then at some point, things start to shift. And it's like, oh, am I going to take care of the person? Right. And she has very clearly experienced that with a sick parent. And I wonder, and I don't want, like, this isn't the type of thing that I want to speculate on too much just because, like, it's her business and I don't know. But we know she's been through that. And we know that it's changed her perspective. And I do think that part of the legacy of this album will be as the album, one of the albums, that she created, after doing some growing up that made her maybe put a lot of these moments into a different perspective and be able to understand them as a more mature person who understands both the anxiety of being like, yeah, at a certain point.

we all got to take care of our, you know, we are on some level what we've got, but then also being able to accept that and having the strength of doing that mixed with the fear of that. I think you get a lot of that throughout the album, but particularly in this song. It's not a song that pulls me to click on it and listen to it again. Every time I do, I am reduced to literal tears. I can't quite figure out what that means, but I have not, there has not been a moment since the album came out. I've certainly gone back and listened to it a bunch of times, but there hasn't been a moment with this song like I've had with some other songs where it's just like, I need to listen to Lavender Hayes right now.

I need to listen to Antihero right now. I need to click on it. I need to experience the dopamine hit that I know that song offers on some. level or the catharsis or whatever it is, I don't have that pull to it. And then every time I bring myself there, I am really, really, really deeply moved by the song. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's like a self-protective instinct, but it has literally brought me to tears every single time I've listened to it. In fairness, you haven't slept and you're at a wedding. It's kind of a perfect storm for Nora Prince Yaddy. Yeah, I'm going to cry a lot this weekend. I cry a lot at weddings. The most famous example. was I went to my friend, Megan and Evans wedding last summer. And I sat down and I opened their program. And I saw that there was a moment in the ceremony where somebody was going to...

Oh, they were going to do a tailor lyric, right? They did a tailor lyric. And the funniest thing is that it was like somebody's uncle who didn't know what it was. But it was a couple lines from everything has changed. I opened the program and then started to weep. Oh, my God. Like the music has not started. Everyone's just like sitting. I was just like sitting. just sitting in Rhode Island crying. It's fine. Well, Nora, that's our wrap on Track 5 breakdown. It's really easy to say that Jack Antonoff is her most important collaborator, isn't it? Yeah.

I think we should each identify a runner-up for most important collaborator who's not Jack, but let's talk about, let's give Jack a performance review here first. What do you think? I can't fucking believe that in the span of eight days, he put out the 1975 album and he put this album out and that four other people are going to show up with the Grammys thinking they have a chance to win producer of the year. Ryan Tetter posted something on Instagram the other day,

I think yesterday that was like, wanted to share some of the stuff that I've done this year. And it just was like, I don't know if this was the right time, buddy. It's like Carly Ray Jepson's album, being put out the same night as Taylor Swift. Yeah, it's really good. It's really, really good. And it's going to get somewhat lost in the shuffle of this. You just like, it doesn't matter. Like, there's just sometimes, it's the reason Rihanna moved her album away from Adele, like back when people actually bought physical albums. You just can't, you got to get out of the shadow.

Right. Big flex for Jack on the, the, the, having those both come out. I'm going to say this, though. The sort of lasting impression, 36 hours after this thing came out on No Sleep for me, is I'm ready. I'm so glad that they did this album together. And I am sure that they will continue to work together in some ways going forward. But this is the last time for me that I want to hear a Taylor and Jack album for a bit. Because it is getting somewhat redundant. They are, I think consciously on this album, but possibly subconsciously. recycling a lot of things that they've done together.

Sounds, melodies, you know, song snippets. And that's great. It's, it's, I enjoy this album. I love it. But what we saw with folklore and evermore was that working with others, even Zoe Cravitz on this album. Yeah.

Pushed her to song, the cruel summer is another example where she worked with someone else. Those interactions that she has, seem to fuel a lot of creativity from her. And I understand this was a concept album. If she's had criticisms before, it's been the sort of inconsistent nature of the album, even though each individual song is worthy.

It's that, you know, do these things really hold up end to end fully? And again, folklore was that, and certainly this album is that. But I, with tons of respect and admiration and love for Jack Antonoff, because I am freaking the fuck out about the 1975 album at the moment.

It's really, really good. And I am loving this album. I am ready to see her branch out from here and start challenging herself to work with other people and see what comes out of it. Because as much as I think the choices here were intentional, and we can go through all of the stuff, we're not going to talk about midnight rain,

but I'm telling you at the 50-second mark in that song, which says he was sunshine, I was midnight. It's a fuck lot, like starry eyes sparking up my darkest night and call it what you want to. And we can just lift all of those parts. It's in the same key as dress. Like they've done some of this stuff before. And again, that might have been the point. But I'm ready to see her do something without the great Jack Antonoff next.

I'm glad she did it here. I'm ready for something else next. Yeah, I mean, I'm with you there. And this is a good thing to kind of go out on, right? you can always, I don't think that there's really ever going to be an end to them being collaborators in some way, but in terms of him being the featured sound of an album, this is a Jack Antonoff ass sound an album, right? Like the drums are incessant.

It is incredibly heavy-handed. You've got the, you know, ooze and oz all over the place. The nice stuff on Bejeweled, which also has all those sparkle shimmer sounds. There's like, I think we talked about this. on another pod when we were talking about Jack at some point there's that

quote about how Coco Chanel talked about dressing of like before you leave the house take one thing off Jack's production style is the antithesis of that

it's just like let's add people clapping at midnight in question right? Like you just keep putting stuff in and here's more drums and here it is.

I think it's it helps this album feel very sonically consistent. I love the overall aesthetic of midnights. I am with you for a lot of reasons, including that it seems like to use a Nathanism. They've reached the end of the forest together and are already going back and making references to past stuff. Also, there is so much of him on this album. It's kind of like, I don't know, we're already kind of O-Ding on Jack Andanov, like, I don't know. You can't go any jackier. So I think she will go somewhere else.

So who, if not Jack, because that's the obvious one. Right. So this is, this is, I think, a good, a good sort of transition given. It's not a nice boy ad. It's not nice boy ad. It's also not Lana Del Rey. So Soundwave, aka Mark Spears, uh, gets production. credits on and writing credits for Lavender Hayes, Karma and Glitch. Yeah. And on an album that has a lot of stuff that is backward looking in moments or we can pinpoint where it's derivative. This is a great point, Nora.

All of those songs are very fresh. Good job by you. That's exactly right. And do something very different. And I think the album is not of as high quality as I believe it is if it doesn't have that freshness that comes through on those songs that he worked on. And that's case and point for why we would expect that going forward she'd work with somebody other than Jack, because it's in her.

And we're now talking about the upper echelon of all-time songwriters in the history of rock, you know, let's just call it post-big band, post-jazz. Like, this is where we are now. This is a unprecedented white-hot fucking streak. She has like 200 quality songs. She is going to repeat some things once in a while. That's fine. Yeah.

And in fairness to like the other people who you have to put her on the same plateau as, and it sounds ridiculous to say this, but you have to put her on the same plateau as like Lenin and McCartney, they had, I think you probably would give the innovation award to Lenin and McCartney, no doubt. they did not have a lot before them that they had to worry about pilfering, right? They were pilfering from some of the, you know, black artists, rock artists who were lesser known and the like, as did some of their peers in the Rolling Stones and others.

But like, she just, it's still in her. She is still creating, I'm telling you that Paul McCartney's 11th, 10th, solo album, like, not the same, did not have the same amount of creativity. And so it is, her legacy is going to be the unbelievable amount of content that she has been able to create. Her productivity is, her prolific nature is unparalleled. And another album with Jack Antonoff is going to waste it. Well, and her ability to, like, I agree with you, but I'm also not that worried because think about her ability to shape shift. Yeah, and she's made these choices.

Two years ago, we were in the folklore. In Victorian Woods knitting sweaters. Yeah. It was back like... But she knows. She knows. She moved from Nathan Chapman to Max Martin.

She moved from Max Martin to Jack. Then she brought in Aaron Destner, did some stuff together. This feels like, because it was a concept album, it feels like she went with the safety. I don't think it was intentional. I do think both of their partners

are actors and were working on a project together. And so naturally they fell into it together. And what happens when two of the most prolific and creative people get together and like drink multiple bottles of wine, this album happens. That's what happens. Yeah, I'm glad you pointed that out. One of the photos she posted, um, individual bottles, guys. I'm not, I'm not throwing shade. I'm just, I'm just pointing out of detail. I don't know. I saw an interview, a slash interview with Howard Stern from, it was a while back, but it got surfaced recently. And he was talking about his path to

sobriety. He was like, at some point, I just couldn't get drunk anymore. Like, I just, I would drink a ton, but I just, it just didn't work anymore. And I worry, Taylor's on that path. I mean, Maroon, she's talking about screw top rosé. There's a lot of, she just is continuing the, she's got four drinks in another song. It's like, wow. By the way, that, that moment, the sort of upward leaning little intonations on those words when she's like, your roommate's cheap as screwtop rose. Sounds like, is this the end of all my endings? Yes.

My broken bones are mending. One million percent. I think that our most important collaborator is whatever this voice is on lavender haze, on midnight rain, on question, on labyrinth, on dear re... We need a name for this. I'm falling in love. I think it's bad. It's Bev. I think that's Ed.

I think Taylor is Ed. I'm calling it Bev. Bev shows up. Bev shows up on Midnight Rain really quickly on question. She takes the outro on Labyrinth. Dear reader, she closes the book. It's Bev. Bev.

It's me. Hi. I'm the problem. It's Bev. Did you give any thought to giving this to Aaron Dessner? I didn't. And I'll tell you why. I...

I really liked the songs, but high infidelity borrows a lot from Renegade. Do you really want to know where I was April 29? Do I really have to tell you how he brought me back to life? Are you really going to talk about time? Which is the big machine song that Taylor sings from the last album. It borrows a lot. And woulda could have should have, I, listen, I'm, this part. partnership matters, and I'm so glad that he's still

clearing his hard drive and sending her shit, and she's still probably turning around in 30 seconds. And we'll get into... Yeah, it's excited to get it. Yeah, is excited to get it. But there are some real madwoman moments that come out of what it could have should have, even as cool of a song as it is. And with that, I mean, I just would move to her most purposeful Easter egg, because for me, it is this song.

And I just need to hear from you on what it coulda should have. like, am I wrong to say this is about losing her virginity to John Mayer? I don't know. I mean, this. So let's talk about it. It's track 19. She says that she was 19. I went down that path with the scarf a little bit, which she did say.

You wanted this theory to be right. Your scarf theory. I just felt like it was right. Like, I don't, I, there's actually nothing here that I want. It's not. Maggie's house if it's her virginity. Because it happened at Maggie's house? I don't want to speculate about this.

Yeah. I don't, I don't know. What I will say is that I have been a 19-year-old girl or a 20-year-old girl, which is when she was with Jake. And there's just a certain spidey sense that the all-too-well 10-minute set off. it's going in the same way in this song. And that energy is very, very, very powerful. And I think it is definitely present there. I don't think that it is a mistake that it comes in as track 19 on this, right?

Like, I do think that it was smart to make this a bonus track or a 3am track because, like, they gave this album to journalists, right? Like they gave this album to people to review in advance because all of those review or a lot of those reviews went up right at midnight when the album came out. They didn't give them the 3 a.m version and they didn't give them this song. And I think that's really, really smart because this song would have would have made a lot of headlines. And I like that it wasn't allowed to suck up all the oxygen in that way. Yeah.

The, you know, give me back my girlhood. It was mine first. Is fucking powerful. I should have stayed on my knees instead of dancing with the devil. I mean, holy shit. And it doesn't, it never flinches. I shouldn't have slept with you. I mean, what a...

Or been with you or let you make me feel any sort, like... But I think it's, it's the... I should have stayed on my knees. Like, it's like I could have stayed with the righteous or whatever. This is, like, I regret you all the time. Like, this is a heavy... And that's the last line. You never get a...

You never get a moment of resolution. It is one of those things in life that you can't undo. You make a choice at some point to be with someone in this way. And the fact that it just haunts her to this day because of the way that, you know, it was tried to be erased, right? Well, and you're also, you're layering in like all of, you know, there are a lot of allusions to religion in this song. Yeah.

So I think she's also contending with how do my deeply ingrained beliefs about what's right and what's proper end up hurting me just as much as someone who may have taken advantage in a certain way or not treated her in a respectful way might have. Like there is somebody who is not Taylor Swift. who hurt her very badly in this song, but she also hurt herself in this. There's one of the things that I think is really, really powerful is you can hear the things that she could let herself off the hook for that she doesn't.

And again, like, and people who, you know, it's not just young women who can relate to that, but like there's just a certain, there's a certain getting that that is really, really just, it knocked me on my ass, particularly because it was released

at 3.30 in the morning. I'm like lying in bed with headphones on being like, oh my God, a man is dead now. Yeah. Yeah. I thought we were waiting until Speak Now, Taylor's version, to do this. No, no, no. We're doing it now.

We're doing it now. It is an unbelievably powerful song. I, musically, listen, the end of the song is just as it rises, it just goes and goes and goes.

It just keeps going. And she keeps raising a voice in the melody and it, I regret you all the time is just, it is the sharpest spear that she has to throw. And yet the sadness

and heaviness of the song is that it can't kill the demon that she lives with even to this day. Right. Right. So it hurts John or whoever it is, but it doesn't undo her hurt. And that's the heaviness and sadness

and sort of incredible nature of this song. But Aaron, I think gets a ton of credit for being a collaborator. I just still come to the place of even Aaron, I think, it's time for her to move on and work with somebody else. I love this concept, though. Give us an album,

and then give us all the shit that got left on the floor that didn't fit in the album because you wrote a piece in the Wall Street Journal about how important it was to protect the sanctity of the album and you actually care about it as an art form. So that's fine, but you are a prolific creator who's going to make things that don't just fit nicely into it. So help us understand the entirety of the era. Basically give us the vault in real time. That's what she did here. Well, and you're a smart person who also understands that the trends of content creation and, you know, I sort of of hate putting it that way because it sounds very unartistic. But like the trends of content

creation favor piecemeal releases and flooding the zone and giving a lot. And I think this is an effective way to have it both ways in a certain, to a certain degree. So that is. Nora, what is what is the most purposeful Easter egg from your perspective? Well, so first of all, just before we stop talking about Aaron Dessner, I do have to give Aaron his own most purposeful Easter egg because I think it is just like he has such adorable

dad energy Oh my God tweeting like He is the cutest Twitter of all times He's so excited just to be part of the joke and in with the bit

and I love that for him I'm so happy for him It's great Where was she on April 29th? Yeah Nathan Speaking of a Desner track Do you really want to know

where I was April 29th? Yeah Where was she? This to me, high infidelity for me was actually the Hiddleston award because I wonder if it's actually about cheating on Calvin Harris with Hittleston. I think it is. So April 29th, 2016 is the day that this is what she came for was released. That same fateful day. Was that the Mett Gala? So the Mett Gala is the first Monday in May. We'll get there. Don't worry. So on April 29th, Mr. Kelseym himself goes on watch what happens live with. Ryan Seagrest and says he doesn't see himself collaborating with Taylor and who he's dating at the time and that she's going to take a break.

I can't see it happening though. You cannot. No. Just keep a church and state. A long break, you know. This apparently does not go over well with Taylor, who the night before, but bleeding into the midnight hours of April 29th was out in L.A. with Gigi-D at The Nice Guy.

I've been there. Was there anyone named Ed there? A nice boy. Nice guy, Ed? I really tried to like thread that in somehow and it didn't work. I don't know. By the first Monday in May, it's the Met Gala and Hiddleswift is off to the races. So here we go.

And, you know, high fidelity. first of all, Zoe Kravitz's mother being in the original high fidelity. Also being a reference to something that

a producer would talk about the creation of a song. There are a few other April 29th where we sort of know what Taylor was up to that day, but I think this is the answer. It seems to be pretty open and shut case on that.

one. If she can sell a fuck the patriarchy keychain, why can't she sell an I-heart T-S t-shirt? That Hiddleston shouldn't that be in the merch store? It really should. What are we even doing here? It's...

Not that she needs more help or advice on how to sell things. I mean, the numbers this week, a little birdie has told me, are going to absolutely blow the doors off. And it's because my daughter bought like eight vinals. So, like, Each individual equals eight album purchases.

They do not need help with merchandising. That said, they got to put an IHeart TS shirt in the store. I think sometimes they need a little bit of... Wait, so what's the Hiddleston award then? Well, okay, can I give you some rapid-fire Easter eggs just to close the loop? Yeah, please. So, first of all, we mentioned the way that she says, it's me, hi, and the Midnight's Mayhem series came back around.

Also, the NYU commencement speech, Definitely gives us some insight into when this thing was in creation. Oh, tell me more. So she said in that commencement speech, she said, breathe in, breathe through, breathe deep, and breathe out. We will breathe in, breathe through, breathe through, breathe deep, and breathe out. Which comes back around in Labyrinth. And she also said, you're on your own now. The scary news is, you're on your own now.

So the Easter egging was coming fast and furious when Tatei was at Yankee Stadium in a cabin gown this spring. And then here's the last one. This is, I think Maroon is probably a Jake Gyllenhaal song because it seems like, you know, it's a shade of red, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is it possible? Oh, boy. Here's my question. Come on, man.

Is it possible that Harry Siles spilled wine on Taylor Swift? like during a pivotal moment because she says the burgundy on my t-shirt when you splash your wine onto me in the song Olivia there is the line she's lying in bed with my t-shirt on

and just thinking how I went about it wrong this isn't the stain of a red wine I'm bleeding love she's lying in bed with my t-shirt on just thinking how I went about it wrong this isn't the stain of a red wine I'm bleeding love I'm just saying

I'm speechless. I also just want to say, I just want to say just one more thing. Harry seems much more like a roommate guy than Jake. Like I don't believe we know he was sleeping on people's.

No, we know that Harry had no problem sleeping on other people's couches. That's what he did for a very, very long time. Right. Whereas Jack Gyllenhaal is like

Mr. Fancy Scandinavian royalty or whatever with his million dollar couch. I don't think that he has a roommate with screw top rosé. Hmm. Hey, if in your... And I think he knows what a carnation is.

Eternal twisted path to more deeply connect Harry Styles and Taylor Swift, this song is the connective tissue for you. I'm on board. I just can't rule it up. That's all I'm saying. You asked about the Hiddleston Award. It's mastermind. It's the full-scale owning of all the Hiddlestonings she's done over the course of time.

And I love that. I'm the problem. me. I'm the Hiddleston. It's me. We already talked about the song, but I think it's great, even though I'm not where you are with the bridge. Oh, you got to get there. I'll try. This is my, this is my favorite thing about the way that we talk to each other about Taylor Swift. This album has only been out for 36 hours. We don't know anything. Are you okay, buddy? No. I, I, I, I am so open to being, I don't need to be sold

in this song by a long shot. It's one of Reese Witherspoons's top three. It might be one of my top three. I am not, that moment is clearly not resonating with me in the same way that it is with you, but I'm gonna give it more time. Look, again, I say,

I think we've heard this album, we haven't seen it yet. We are going to start to see a lot more of this album that will help fill in some of these holes. That said, they're in the process of our every single album,

album journey, we intentionally create holes, don't we? We take albums and we force ourselves to make a choice about a song or songs that you would cut from the album. You have given us your tears. Wait, did you give us, did you give us your Hiddleston Award? Yes, it's high infidelity. Okay, okay, okay. The Hiddleston Award is the Hittleston song. That's fair. That's very fair. I know what song I'm cutting. Yeah, yeah. I'm sitting here wondering, what is it? It's Labrath.

Yeah. Yes. Thank God. It's, you know, I think the, I'm falling in love again is pretty. Bev. Kind of. Sorry, Bev. Why is it called Bev?

I don't know. It just sounds like. like Bev, like, I don't know. Why is she scared of elevators? It's a better question. Because it's like, it's like, oh, what must,

what goes up must come down thing. Yeah. There's an important line in here about everybody just expects me to bounce back that is meaningful. But this song is a reinterpret. Yeah, this song is a reinterpretation

of the archer, is it not? Yeah, which is also a song that I don't particularly care for in the same way of other people. There are some, like, labyrinth stanners out there who are like, this song. And I think they're the same people who are so drawn to the archer and have it your way, for real.

Right. And tell us why it works for you, right? Like, I definitely don't want to cut it. Midnight Rain is not among my favorites on this album either. But I was at this welcome party last night. And somebody came up to me and was like, oh, my God, midnight rain. And I was like, cool. Tell me why you love it.

Yeah. And it's cool that, like, it's, I like getting into people's heads that way. So please, if we don't love your favorite song, like, just tell us why you love it. Because that's great. But yes, Labyrinth is the cut for me. Labyrinth is the cut. I have to tell you, I wasn't massively moved by Maroon. But I have heard lots of strong arguments for Maroon.

I wish you'd like question as much as I do. I like question quite a bit. But also, I don't love out of the woods as much as you do. So maybe that's why. That is probably a piece of it. I, it, sweet nothing felt like a skip, except that I'm just too soft for all of it. To you, I can admit that I'm just too soft.

I mean, look, musically, this is simple. It's like she walked in and, and there's Joe on the Whirlitzer, just like noodling around and just courting down from the F major to the C. Like, he's playing feeling groovy by Simon and Garfunkel. And she was like, oh, it's so cute. Let's make, she can turn anything into anything.

I mean, really, if she can take that and turn into song. It sounds like the Liliati's like I Spati song in the beginning. I ain't been getting high. Well, maybe a little baby, I don't want to lie. I spy with my little tired eye, tiny as a firefly. It's William Bowery featuring Woliotti. The whole thing, I just, I'm not sure that I'm going to go back and listen to this, But again, I've had some arguments in my ear, the proverbial cocktail parties of people who really love this song.

Yeah. How dare you? I love Sweet Nothing. Yeah. And I think for the narrative, it's got to stay. It's fine. It can stay. For the narrative, it's got to stay. I'm too soft for all of it. It is so just me. It's so cozy. And then once, when you get towards the end and Joe is is noodling around on the whorlitzer, but he starts to sort of like walk those chords up. It's, I like it. I like how it takes a little bit to get there, but I like the song musically as much as I like. Are you sure,

are you sure you don't like it a little more than you otherwise would because it's truly the only stripped down acoustic, ballad that we got here? Maybe that's part of it. But that's not what, like, I'm thrilled. By the way, I saw someone call this album, Yossified Evermore,

and it really set me places. I'm glad this is a pop album. I don't like I loved folklore and evermore, but I'm not like a folklore evermore girl. I'm glad that that stuff brought other people into the Taylor Swift fold. I think there are incredible songs on those albums. That's, I am a pop girlie until I am dead in a ditch somewhere.

And so I'm not really clamoring for that here or in general. so I don't think that that's all of why I like it. Well, it's definitely labyrinth. I'm on the seventh tracks, like, I'm mad on Great War, I'm mad and bigger than the whole sky as like entire creations. I don't think I'll go back to them. They feel like, hey, I learned some things about you.

They have a few moments. They feel like some of the songs from the vault on a few of the other albums, which is like, I'm glad they're here, glad they're part of the canon. Don't think I'm going to revisit them. Strong disagree. But that's fine. That's fine. You get to do that. Are you going to disagree with me on what Peak Taylor is? Like the general releasing an entirely new album in the middle of the fucking night so that Friday, October 21st becomes one of the least productive days in the history of America?

It's like, you know how they really need to make the Monday after the Super Bowl like a federal holiday? Why would she? I mean, it's the same with this. Literally, the plan was. to just fuck with everybody because she can. I am so tired. I mean, I'm so tired. I set those alarms and tweeted at you about it

and like we had a little, huh, yeah, we set our alarms. I didn't fucking need the alarms because by the time you got through listening the album, she knew what she was doing. You were going to listen to it a couple times and then you're going to be so tired.

It's like when you're out and it's 4.30 or 5 a.m. And you're just like, we just got to push through one more hour to see the sunrise. Like we just, the night should end now. We really need to go to bed,

but fuck it. We have to wake up so soon. We're just going to power through. And that's what the gap between midnight and 3 a.m. was. You and I had a phone call earlier that evening where you were like, how are we doing this? And I was like, Nathan,

I'm looking at myself in the mirror right now and I am making a pledge that I'm going to make the responsible choice. We both have early flights. I'm going to listen once through. And then I'm going to put it down and I'm going to go to bed. And I'm going to set an alarm for $259.

See what the 3 a.m thing is. Nope. But I'm going to try to, you know, get two-ish hours in between and then listen and then go right to bed. No, you're not. It's too chaotic. It's too crazy. But it's not even like, I couldn't have gone to sleep if I'd tried. No.

The amount of just adrenaline coursing through my veins rendered that impossible. I get up. I go, like, get on this plane. I've forgotten to check in until. I'm almost at the airport, so I get a middle seat, and I'm in between these two, like, businessmen, just, like, bopping and being like, karma is my boyfriend. I'm so tired asking this flight attendant for coffee, like five times. I know. This was just ridiculous.

It was ridiculous, but I will. This was just a massive flex. I hope she never does it again. I will cherish the memories. Okay. That's fair. She basically said, you have to suffer in the... the same way that I did in order to hear this album.

I think it also had a, you know, there's something community building about. Yes. Knowing that everybody's staying up together. It's like we're all having a big slumber party. Right. That's probably the right answer. I did put down, she was always going to attend her own funeral at some point, wasn't she? Yeah.

This may not be the last time in these videos either, by the way. The tomb won't close. Yeah, by the way, look, I'm not saying she explicitly named any names in vigilante shit. I'm just saying that if Scooter Braun has a snorkeling accident, she better be careful because she might be getting called to a witness stand at some point. Listen, the interpersonal stuff, let's, I don't want to speculate on that. She's threatening murder.

Yeah. Hey, she's sung about it before. It's usually like a character. I guess this is a character. Maybe, sort of. She and the Heim sisters are going to go to work. And Laura Dern, I can't wait. I cannot wait to see it.

But again, a fairly thinly veiled threat, I would say. Anyway, the last peak tailor that I wanted to just throw out there is karma is a cat. Karma is a cat. Karma is a cat. Did you know that, Nathan? I do now. Yeah, me too. I appreciated your suggestion that maybe the surprise was a fourth cat.

Oh my God. I wish it happened, to be honest. I mean, I don't. Like seven more songs is probably better for me personally. But like, there were 11 cats in the music video. And I'm taking that as a promise. That she's going to be in the next cat's movie? That she's going to wind up with 11 cats.

More cats. What's the best lyric, Nora? I've already said it. It's a mastermind bridge for me. Yeah. I'm not ready for that. I love I regret you all the time. I love the contrast with,

hi, I'm the problem. It's me contrasted with you. That's what happened you. Yeah. I landed on the mastermind bridge. But you tell me, what is it?

So there's something, I think the most powerful line is that give me back my girlhood. It was mine first. Definitely. Just like is a full spear. but I want to highlight some other stuff from this. First of all, we talked about it a little bit.

This album, there are a few instances of it, and I think what could have should have is an example of her doing this, but there aren't that many songs where lyrically the strength of them is the sort of dance around in the kitchen and the refrigerator light stuff where she's painting a very specific scene

and you are kind of in the room with her. Yeah. Instead, the way that she is flexing, is the stuff with the internal rhyme schemes that we talked about with the, I should not be left to my own devices. They come with prices and vices I end up in crisis. I should not be left to my own devices. They come with prices and vices.

I end up in crisis. Like, holy smokes, girl. The sprinkler splashes, fireplace ashes, narcissism, altruism, like the verbal flexing. that is happening with this person and, you know, whatever thesaurus she uses, maybe it's just in her brain, is on a level that I don't think that we've ever had from her. And I love hearing that as the progression of this person who spent time with Max Martin

and studied in the melodic math of that. But then at another point was doing the stuff with Aaron Desner during the pandemic, focusing on fitting words to these musicals. sketches that she had received from him. And I think it's put her in a place where fitting music and lyrics together has never been easier, has never been something that she's felt more comfortable with and feels like she can flex on. And it's, it's just incredible.

So I want to make sure that that doesn't, you know, some of those lyrics individually are incredible, but I think they really shine with how they're paired in the musical moments when they come up in. Some others. I stare directly in the sun but never in the mirror, I think is a bar. And we talked about the sapphire tears on my face, sadness became my whole sky, but some guy said my aura's moonstone just because he was high. Like, it's so fun.

And there are silly lyrics on this album that feel hard to be like, okay, karma is a cat, is the best lyric on this album. But who else is writing that shit in the year 2022 in pop music, right? Like, she is willing to be a cheese ball and, and write, I'm so in love that I might stop breathing in a way

that I don't know that we have that many other superstars right now who do that because it's not cool, but it's amazing. So you get vibes and slick awes from Lavender Hayes, but then she can be corny

and write about swooping cursive letters. I really, really, really appreciate that from her. The glitter gel pen was put to good use, I think. Yeah, I just would say it doesn't feel overly campy to me. In the construct of songwriting, I think that she's tamed that and worked it in in a way that still is authentic, but doesn't feel like, I don't have moments of cringe on this album.

It's just very confident. Yeah. Like, it all feels intentional. Yeah. So in the past, we've done next album appetizer, and I have to tell you that I am legitimately stumped, because what I think is the takeaway point is what you said earlier in that

this album was the product of a very well-done partnership between Taylor and Jack Antonoff, but I do think that she is at the proverbial end of the forest. Yeah. With that, because of that, I just, I don't know where she goes next from this, other than knowing that I hope it is somewhere else, even though I really, really, really love this album.

She has worked with people generally who were older than her before and who she sort of had some reason to look up to. And I wonder if from here she's now there are country artists, singing about her in the same way that she sang about Tim McGrath, I wonder if she starts to look to the next generation of creators who are coming up and see if she can't find inspiration there. I mean, by the way, like, a lot of Billy Eilish on vigilante shit. Yeah, no.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, I still, vigilante shit for me is I did something bad and I can't get out of my head. But yes, there's plenty of Billy there. I don't know what it is. I'm excited to hear it. I hope people will chime in with their thoughts because I think the important takeaway here is that we're at an exciting moment where we know that creating remains incredibly important to her and is something that she's actively doing on a very high level beyond the project of the re-releases. Dear Releaders. in that part.

I mean, it is sort of the second closer here where she's telling us not to believe everything we see. And I mean, she just in the last song said, she wished she hadn't danced with the devil. This song, she says, when you aim at the devil, make sure you don't miss. Well, she just aimed at him and tried to kill him.

He's hit. Yeah, but this is her, like, I'm not a role model song. And she's told us a lot about who she's, she is across those 20 songs. So where we go from here is going to be very interesting. Okay. But there's one thing left to do. Yeah. I'll start. Yeah. I mean, I know what you're going to say. I'm giving it an A. Okay. I'm less concerned with your grade. Not on a curve. Yeah. What I want to know is where does this rank as an album compared to folklore? Should this win the Grammy for album of the year? Yes. Yes. I mean, you know, look, it's, it has tough competition.

Is it better than 1989? I don't think so, but I don't, I don't think so. Is it better than lover? Yes. Is it better than reputation? Yes. Is it better than folklore? Yes.

Wow! Do you want to think about that? Yeah, I'm going to think about it nonstop for probably the rest of my life, but definitely the next months. But that is, that is genuinely how I feel. Look, I think there's something, like, I hate, I hate discrediting reputation for how risk-taking it was. And that album took risks in ways that this one doesn't because this album is largely...

Right. This is in some ways reputation all over. Right. And she's revisiting things that she's already had success doing. Yes, that's what I want to say. Although I do think that she has freshened it up in ways that are meaningful. Just like all too well 10-minute version was freshened up. Right. 1989, I think, was musically at least of the same quality,

if not better and also was... Girl, 1989 is a better album. Yes, yes, no, that's what I'm saying. And I also think that it was... Even though we think of that as like her most mainstream pop album, it is such a risk to put yourself out and say, I am gunning for world domination with this thing and everyone will know if it falls flat in that

that I just, it's very hard to touch that. But I do think that the one that's giving me pauses reputation. I know some people will disagree with that for sure. But it is, and part of, look, part of why I prefer it to folklore is that like I'm a pop girl. But it, it is, it. it's really,

really strong. And the fact that there isn't, it takes some processing because as much as I love Antihero and that is the song, it's not a cruel summer type thing where it's just like, holy shit.

That's what I'm telling you. Here's this one bullet. That's why I can't believe that you're arguing that it's the best album since 1989. Because I think I can point to at least to maybe four, songs on each of those albums that are like dead in the center of your heart and that you will

feel more strongly about than any songs on this album, even though this as an album is wonderful top to bottom. But time will tell. Time will tell if you're just drunk. I think that the 10th best song on this album is, and that's not the main metric that I'm grading on here, right? But like, this thing is deep. Yes. Like this is, by the way, April 29th of last year, I know what I was doing. It was the NFL draft. Yes. The fifth round of this thing is like, there are some pro bowlers in there. And that is what is really, really knocking me over. Yeah. I think it is some of her most accomplished songwriting. I think it is definitely her most top to bottom consistently great songwriting on a pop album. I give it an A-minus on a relative basis, only relative basis, because I think through time, we're going to look at this as her polishing up and revisiting a number of songs in the canon across her catalog.

And that this, it makes perfect sense to me that this album came out while she was basically doing karaoke and re-recording her old albums. and that her reaction to that, having lived inside them, was to have to revisit them and think about what was going on in the moment as she re-recorded her catalog. Think about, try to put herself back in those shoes as almost a method actor. And that as a part of that process, she inherently had thoughts as a 32-33-year-old

that influenced what became of this album and that, in fact, instead of putting out 1989, and maybe their business reasons for it, but that it spurred this album. But I will always think about it as synthesizing parts of the back catalog, repurposing them, repolishing them, and that in fact,

the 10-minute all-too-well version was the next album appetizer. It taught us what was coming, which is she took something old, refreshed it, polished it up because she polishes up real nice. Real nice. and turned it into Midnights,

which is a wonderful, wonderful album with a woman at the absolute peak of her songwriting, and it makes me incredibly hungry for what's next. That said, I think the videos are going to teach us a lot about what this project actually is. I'm so excited. We will certainly have a lot more to discuss.

I think we should call it a podcast for now before Kaya cuts our mics off and says, get this off my desk. But for the second, the vigilante shit video and whatever happens on the TV stuff, whatever we hear about touring, there's just, I know there's going to be a lot more to talk about it. And we're going to make sure that we do that. I hope people will stay engaged in sending their thoughts. It's just so fun to talk about this. It's so fun to have 21 new songs to sink our teeth into, as we talked about. So this has been every single album, Taylor Swift. As always, I am Nora Pinciotti.

He is Nathan Hubbard. We will be back talking about Taylor sometime soon. And our thanks as always to Kaia McMullen for her production on this episode. And to you for listening.